[TV] Gotham
Forum Index > Media & Entertainment |
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
| ||
KwarK
United States40776 Posts
| ||
karazax
United States3737 Posts
The general atmosphere and tone was good, the acting wasn't great, but the premise held my attention. It will be hard for me to stick with a detective show where the detective work made no sense though. In particular in regards to Gordon's investigation into + Show Spoiler + the framed murder. 1) Ivy's mother said that her husband was into a lot of bad stuff, but wasn't capable of killing anyone and Gordon seemed to accept this as believeable testimony despite the fact that her husband tried to kill him by shooting then attempting to stab him. Speaking of which, if her husband was "innocent" why did he run and try to kill a cop in the first place? Guilty of something else perhaps? I didn't hear any explanation of what that might be. 2) Bullock says Gordon can't tell anyone that they got the wrong man because that means he killed an innocent man and they will both lose their jobs...? What? Bullock shot Ivy's father because he was trying to kill Gordon. Ivy's father's guilt or innocence in the murder of the Waynes had nothing to do with the legality of shooting him in defense of Gordon. Am I the only one who was bothered by this? First episode is available free online at http://www.fox.com/gotham/ | ||
Korlin
Canada142 Posts
On September 25 2014 01:08 karazax wrote: I wanted to like this, but the writing was kind of bad. A detective show where the detective work has huge plot holes is a problem. The general atmosphere and tone was good, the acting wasn't great, but the premise held my attention. It will be hard for me to stick with a detective show where the detective work made no sense though. First episode is available free online at http://www.fox.com/gotham/ Is that US only or the video just temporarily down? | ||
Celial
2602 Posts
Catwoman is 10-15 years older than Bruce. Seems odd, she used to be a romantic interest for adult Bruce in all other instances. The Riddler is a coroner for the police and already old... The Penguin seemed really really REALLY socially awkward penguin and kind of retarded. Also a background in organized crime instead of wealthy family. A far cry from the brilliant tactician and criminal mastermind that is as skilled in hand to hand combat as Batman. | ||
Sermokala
United States13542 Posts
I'd say the shows going to be ruined by terrible wirting decisions but with this being such terrible decisions from the start I doubt it'll be getting any better. | ||
Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
On September 25 2014 01:29 Korlin wrote: Is that US only or the video just temporarily down? Canadians can get it on CTV.ca. | ||
Daray
6006 Posts
| ||
Korlin
Canada142 Posts
Thanks! | ||
bearbuddy
3442 Posts
On September 25 2014 01:08 karazax wrote: I wanted to like this, but the writing was kind of bad. A detective show where the detective work has huge plot holes is a problem. The general atmosphere and tone was good, the acting wasn't great, but the premise held my attention. It will be hard for me to stick with a detective show where the detective work made no sense though. In particular in regards to Gordon's investigation into + Show Spoiler + the framed murder. 1) Ivy's mother said that her husband was into a lot of bad stuff, but wasn't capable of killing anyone and Gordon seemed to accept this as believeable testimony despite the fact that her husband tried to kill him by shooting then attempting to stab him. Speaking of which, if her husband was "innocent" why did he run and try to kill a cop in the first place? Guilty of something else perhaps? I didn't hear any explanation of what that might be. 2) Bullock says Gordon can't tell anyone that they got the wrong man because that means he killed an innocent man and they will both lose their jobs...? What? Bullock shot Ivy's father because he was trying to kill Gordon. Ivy's father's guilt or innocence in the murder of the Waynes had nothing to do with the legality of shooting him in defense of Gordon. Am I the only one who was bothered by this? First episode is available free online at http://www.fox.com/gotham/ + Show Spoiler + Even if I disagree, I wouldn't tell the woman whose husband just got shot and killed (by my partner) that she is wrong. It just seems kind of... childish to disagree with a grieving woman to have moral high ground. The premise of the search was that there's probable cause for the man to be the murderer of Thomas and Martha Wayne. While I agree that Ivy's dad is a shady person and probably committed some other crimes, he is, by all means, innocent on the count of murders of Thomas and Martha. I agree that Bullock acted in self-defense and is perfectly justified in shooting Ivy's dad. However, this is a big profile case and they were heralded as hero cops after killing Ivy's dad. Their jobs are in jeopardy regardless once the truth comes out, because Bullock followed on a tip and cornered an "innocent" man and killed him. How will this look in the press? GCPD would look rather incompetent, and they might just be fired as a result. But later on we know that Bullock probably knew the whole situation in the first place, and that he's just sprouting some bullshit to Gordon. I actually kind of like the show so far. There are some corny moments, but less than it would an outright superhero TV show. | ||
Disposition1989
Canada270 Posts
I think (could be wrong on this) they plan to do character-centric episodes so we'll probably see some more in depth looks at these "oh hey look I'm from comics but since there are so many of us we can't talk to me that much right now!" characters. Also, most pilots are filmed with the primary intention of selling the show to the network (also could be wrong on this). A lot of pilots feel like they are made to appeal to the widest audience possible to appease the broadcast gods. So the first batch of episodes likely has zero viewer/critical feedback and might need some time to sort itself out. Or not. Man oh man it was brutal! Gonna watch all 16 episodes because there isn't anything else on Monday nights but they really dropped the ball on this. | ||
karazax
United States3737 Posts
On September 25 2014 04:18 bearbuddy wrote: + Show Spoiler + Even if I disagree, I wouldn't tell the woman whose husband just got shot and killed (by my partner) that she is wrong. It just seems kind of... childish to disagree with a grieving woman to have moral high ground. The premise of the search was that there's probable cause for the man to be the murderer of Thomas and Martha Wayne. While I agree that Ivy's dad is a shady person and probably committed some other crimes, he is, by all means, innocent on the count of murders of Thomas and Martha. I agree that Bullock acted in self-defense and is perfectly justified in shooting Ivy's dad. However, this is a big profile case and they were heralded as hero cops after killing Ivy's dad. Their jobs are in jeopardy regardless once the truth comes out, because Bullock followed on a tip and cornered an "innocent" man and killed him. How will this look in the press? GCPD would look rather incompetent, and they might just be fired as a result. But later on we know that Bullock probably knew the whole situation in the first place, and that he's just sprouting some bullshit to Gordon. I actually kind of like the show so far. There are some corny moments, but less than it would an outright superhero TV show. Response to plot problems: + Show Spoiler + It wasn't that Gordon didn't call her a liar that bothered me, but rather his reaction of acceptance that this statement in any way strengthened his doubts about who killed the Waynes. It was a stupid comment for her to make considering her husband was shooting at Gordon as he ran just outside their door. I understand the reason Gordon and Bullock searched his apartment. I don't understand Ivy's father's reaction to that request. Why is he fleeing and trying to kill a cop when he is innocent? They didn't corner an "innocent" man. Innocent men don't run from the police and shoot at them, then try to stab them when they are persued. How is that possibly going to cost them their jobs? Being wrong on a high profile case may be embarassing, but only covering that up to avoid that embarassment would be job ending. It was just dumb writing that easily could have been avoided. My comparisons at this point are going to be to other detective shows, not other super hero shows, until we actually get a super hero/villain. The detective parts have been pretty terrible so far even though the concept is interesting | ||
sertas
Sweden815 Posts
| ||
bearbuddy
3442 Posts
On September 25 2014 06:09 karazax wrote: Response to plot problems: + Show Spoiler + It wasn't that Gordon didn't call her a liar that bothered me, but rather his reaction of acceptance that this statement in any way strengthened his doubts about who killed the Waynes. It was a stupid comment for her to make considering her husband was shooting at Gordon as he ran just outside their door. I understand the reason Gordon and Bullock searched his apartment. I don't understand Ivy's father's reaction to that request. Why is he fleeing and trying to kill a cop when he is innocent? They didn't corner an "innocent" man. Innocent men don't run from the police and shoot at them, then try to stab them when they are persued. How is that possibly going to cost them their jobs? Being wrong on a high profile case may be embarassing, but only covering that up to avoid that embarassment would be job ending. It was just dumb writing that easily could have been avoided. My comparisons at this point are going to be to other detective shows, not other super hero shows, until we actually get a super hero/villain. The detective parts have been pretty terrible so far even though the concept is interesting + Show Spoiler + It was indeed a stupid statement for the wife to make. She's also married to an obviously abusive man. Her husband still got shot and she's mad and she's sad. Gordon didn't apologize to the wife-- he asked to check the shoes, and since the necklace was circumstantial evidence in the first place, and Gordon went on to confirm it with Fish Mooney (and getting himself in trouble). As I've said, Ivy's father is innocent of killing Martha and Thomas Wayne, but that doesn't mean is innocent of committing other crimes, as evidenced by his past incarceration. He is obviously capable of killing, but that doesn't mean he actually has killed anyone (if his previous conviction is murder, he would probably still be locked up). Why did he flee in the first place? We'll probably never know. But the audience is straight up told that he didn't murder Martha and Thomas Wayne. The press and reality are two different things. Ultimately, the interpretation of public relations between you and me are too different to come to an agreement, so any arguing would be rather moot. This is the very first episode to set up the premise of the show. In 45 minutes of actual air time, we are introduced to several future batman villains, several main players of Gotham, and the relationship of the mafia within itself and its connection to the police. We're not going to get any deep detective work done in this episode, nor has the show ever declared itself a detective show in the first place. I guess my expectations are simply different, and I'm willing to suspend my disbelief much easier. | ||
Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
| ||
Eti307
Canada3442 Posts
| ||
DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
What do you think the average length of each scene is in this show? About 30-45 seconds? There's snappy and fast paced and then there is awkward and jarring. This show is straddling that edge perilously. The only thing I genuinely think is pretty well done on the show is Gotham itself. A nice grimy and sweaty version of NYC/Chicago with crap added to it. If there was one thing I'd say I disliked most about the Christian Bale movies is that Gotham was really crappy and generic in the 2nd and 3rd movies (with the 3rd movie horrifyingly being basically just helicopter shots of New York). | ||
TigerKarl
1757 Posts
Now that they seem to add that for no reason into this world, that could do fine just without them, says a lot about the writers. | ||
Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On September 25 2014 03:31 Daray wrote: Bad writing and mediocre acting spiced up with some comic book lore. People will be all over that shit :D Basically Smallville 2.0 | ||
karazax
United States3737 Posts
The GCPD is incompetent. Except for Jim Gordon, none of its officers appear to have any interest in doing any actual investigative work, and upper management takes a similarly dismissive position. Commissioner Essen isn’t just aware of the corruption within her unit—she appears to be in active support of it. “Jim, it’s not like I can order you to break the law, but this is Gotham,” Essen says when Jim comes to her with concerns about Bullock’s interrogation methods. “If you don’t bend, you’ll get broke.” How is it that all the corrupt cops don't even make the most cursory efforts to hide their corruption from Gordon from the start, and Major Crimes seems completely oblivious? Then again, I don't know who the Major Crimes division would even report anything to considering the commissioner, and every cop other than Gordon is corrupt and so is the mayor. I keep forgetting that Selina Kyle is Catwoman, thankfully the writers remind me every scene she is in. Maybe I'm exaggerating. It's not like she fights by scratching or she first appeared in the episode batting at a shiny dangling thing... I wouldn't have caught on though until they told me "This young WOMAN has CATlike reflexes" or she reminded me to call her Cat and not Selina a dozen times. Maybe it will improve over time, but I'm not impressed so far. It stands more on the strengths of Batman's history and legacy than it does on it's own merits. | ||
Necro)Phagist(
Canada6509 Posts
TLDR: First two episodes kind of sucked, great premise for a show though gonna give it sometime to develop might turn out good. | ||
Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
| ||
Necro)Phagist(
Canada6509 Posts
On October 01 2014 13:35 Scarecrow wrote: I usually think it's the opposite. Shows start out strong with a plan and high quality pilot then fall apart later. Starting off poorly, riding an established name, with shitty writing doesn't bode well. They should already have a lot of this worked out, not be figuring it out on the go. Really? That's interesting, normally I have to trudge through the first few episodes of a show. They have a plan and idea but for the most part their plans rarely ever seem to turn out well on screen and they have to tweak the character's and how they write for them. Or even just having to introduce and build up the characters in the first episodes can make the show start off slow. Personally I've always found that shows tend to suck in the first few episodes before getting good later in the season. | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
I got literally 60 seconds into the first episode and I don't think I can go any further. Catwoman is walking down the street and she steals a half gallon of milk from some lady by cutting open her grocery bag. For some reason this lady doesn't realize that one of the two jugs of milk is missing from the ground, even though it's plain as day. So Catwoman continues walking down the street with a jug of milk sticking out of her... jugs of milk (TITTIES), robs another guy, and escapes. She goes into an alley and sits down a bowl, then pours some milk in it for stray cats. So, what's my problem with the show at this point? CATWOMAN JUST STOLE A BRAND FUCKING NEW HALF GALLON OF MILK BUT WHEN SHE POURS IT FOR THE CATS THERE'S ONLY 10% OF IT LEFT ALREADY. WHERE THE FUCK DID ALL OF THE MILK GO? I MEAN JESUS CHRIST IS IT TOO HARD TO ASK THE DIRECTOR TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FUCKING SCENES IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE CONTINUITY? And this is completely unrelated but has anyone watched Transformers: Age of Extinction? There's a scene near the end of that where Mark Wahlberg is COMPLETELY ALONE hiding behind a rock. THERE ARE NO OTHER HUMANS ANYWHERE NEAR HIM. The rock gets shot and suddenly a second person appears for one 2-3 second scene and gets blown up right next to Mark. The worst part? THAT SECOND PERSON WAS ALSO MARK. How on earth do you even fuck up a shot that badly? I've lost all faith in comic or cartoon movies because quality is the exception, not the norm. | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
| ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
CW class show then? As expected I suppose. I've been holding off because there is some eye candy on the show my GF is interested in, but I guess you could call this one a mile away. | ||
giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
| ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
On October 01 2014 23:44 Serejai wrote: What kind of low budget shit is this? I thought it would be pretty well done but apparently that isn't the case. I got literally 60 seconds into the first episode and I don't think I can go any further. Catwoman is walking down the street and she steals a half gallon of milk from some lady by cutting open her grocery bag. For some reason this lady doesn't realize that one of the two jugs of milk is missing from the ground, even though it's plain as day. So Catwoman continues walking down the street with a jug of milk sticking out of her... jugs of milk (TITTIES), robs another guy, and escapes. She goes into an alley and sits down a bowl, then pours some milk in it for stray cats. So, what's my problem with the show at this point? CATWOMAN JUST STOLE A BRAND FUCKING NEW HALF GALLON OF MILK BUT WHEN SHE POURS IT FOR THE CATS THERE'S ONLY 10% OF IT LEFT ALREADY. WHERE THE FUCK DID ALL OF THE MILK GO? I MEAN JESUS CHRIST IS IT TOO HARD TO ASK THE DIRECTOR TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FUCKING SCENES IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE CONTINUITY? And this is completely unrelated but has anyone watched Transformers: Age of Extinction? There's a scene near the end of that where Mark Wahlberg is COMPLETELY ALONE hiding behind a rock. THERE ARE NO OTHER HUMANS ANYWHERE NEAR HIM. The rock gets shot and suddenly a second person appears for one 2-3 second scene and gets blown up right next to Mark. The worst part? THAT SECOND PERSON WAS ALSO MARK. How on earth do you even fuck up a shot that badly? I've lost all faith in comic or cartoon movies because quality is the exception, not the norm. Well, you got to work a bit on your understanding skills. The old jug of milk was almost finished so she stole a new one, but still gave milk from the old one. | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
On October 02 2014 04:40 0x64 wrote: Well, you got to work a bit on your understanding skills. The old jug of milk was almost finished so she stole a new one, but still gave milk from the old one. But that's not at all what happens. In the scene before she pours the milk she still has the stolen brand-new milk in her jacket. She takes that out of her jacket and the very next shot shows a nearly-empty, different container of milk. You can't just make up a story like "it was an old container of milk". Seems my "understanding skills" are just fine; the director fucked up | ||
NPF
Canada1635 Posts
On October 02 2014 06:39 Serejai wrote: But that's not at all what happens. In the scene before she pours the milk she still has the stolen brand-new milk in her jacket. She takes that out of her jacket and the very next shot shows a nearly-empty, different container of milk. You can't just make up a story like "it was an old container of milk". Seems my "understanding skills" are just fine; the director fucked up One possibility is that they did the scene a dozen times and the one that worked the jug was almost empty and they didn't want a new jug each time, or it wasn't the first cat she fed that night... I'm ambivalent about the show, but I'll watch it till if I get bored. Major Crimes is a joke, but I get the broken system where no one cares. | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
Catwoman looks great. I think the girl they picked to play her does very well, although I'm not sure I like the idea of 13 year old Catwoman in the first place but that's for another post. The Riddler seems out of place. Don't know why. The Penguin is just awful. Instead of being a genius martial artist it's some pimply little kid that has the intelligence of a rock. It may as well be a completely new character because it has nothing at all in common with the actual Penguin. The detective aspect of the show is extremely weak, and the show itself is riddled with bad acting. Gotham looks great; much better than in the Bale movies. | ||
karazax
United States3737 Posts
Still I think it's a very difficult concept to pull off even with the best writers and actors. How old are Penguin, Scarecrow, the Riddler and Zsasz going to be by the time Bruce Wayne is Batman? Bruce looks about 10 years old now, and they all have to be in their 20's. And the other key problem is that if Gordon was capable of dealing with any of these villains there wouldn't be a need for a Batman. It's also curious that the last episode mentioned Dollmaker, when the new 52 version of his origin would have been perfect for this show. That origin being: + Show Spoiler + As a child, Barton Mathis went on several "hunting trips" with his father Wesley. During these hunts, Barton watched as his father killed people and then cannibalized them. He would also witness his father being shot down by a young cop named James Gordon. After spending only a year in foster care, Barton disappeared for years before he resurfaced as the criminal Dollmaker. His mask is partially made of skin from his deceased father.[ I want the show to be good, just don't think it is so far. | ||
M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
| ||
Complete
United States1864 Posts
| ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On October 01 2014 23:44 Serejai wrote: What kind of low budget shit is this? I thought it would be pretty well done but apparently that isn't the case. I got literally 60 seconds into the first episode and I don't think I can go any further. Catwoman is walking down the street and she steals a half gallon of milk from some lady by cutting open her grocery bag. For some reason this lady doesn't realize that one of the two jugs of milk is missing from the ground, even though it's plain as day. So Catwoman continues walking down the street with a jug of milk sticking out of her... jugs of milk (TITTIES), robs another guy, and escapes. She goes into an alley and sits down a bowl, then pours some milk in it for stray cats. So, what's my problem with the show at this point? CATWOMAN JUST STOLE A BRAND FUCKING NEW HALF GALLON OF MILK BUT WHEN SHE POURS IT FOR THE CATS THERE'S ONLY 10% OF IT LEFT ALREADY. WHERE THE FUCK DID ALL OF THE MILK GO? I MEAN JESUS CHRIST IS IT TOO HARD TO ASK THE DIRECTOR TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE FUCKING SCENES IN ORDER TO PRESERVE THE CONTINUITY? And this is completely unrelated but has anyone watched Transformers: Age of Extinction? There's a scene near the end of that where Mark Wahlberg is COMPLETELY ALONE hiding behind a rock. THERE ARE NO OTHER HUMANS ANYWHERE NEAR HIM. The rock gets shot and suddenly a second person appears for one 2-3 second scene and gets blown up right next to Mark. The worst part? THAT SECOND PERSON WAS ALSO MARK. How on earth do you even fuck up a shot that badly? I've lost all faith in comic or cartoon movies because quality is the exception, not the norm. I just watched the new transformers movie last night and thought I smoked too much when I noticed that. Glad I wasn't just trippin. As for Gotham The Riddler is again my favorite character. | ||
Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
On October 02 2014 11:40 Serejai wrote: Some things about the show thus far: Catwoman looks great. I think the girl they picked to play her does very well, although I'm not sure I like the idea of 13 year old Catwoman in the first place but that's for another post. The Riddler seems out of place. Don't know why. The Penguin is just awful. Instead of being a genius martial artist it's some pimply little kid that has the intelligence of a rock. It may as well be a completely new character because it has nothing at all in common with the actual Penguin. The detective aspect of the show is extremely weak, and the show itself is riddled with bad acting. Gotham looks great; much better than in the Bale movies. The problem is that you have to make a choice when it comes to the iconic villains of batman, either they are evil teenagers (and let's face it that would be absolutely awful, especially with child actors) or they are young adults who for some reason are not yet the threats they are when batman is around. I'm actually glad the show took the second option, although both the acting, the character designs (Alfred and the corrupt/bad tempered/stupid detective being the worst for me) and the storytelling could be improved greatly. Personally, I'm giving the show two more episodes to improve. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51330 Posts
| ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
| ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
BUT WAIT! Suddenly a single balloon randomly floats up from the ground... Continuity. HOW DO I DO IT? | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
| ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On September 25 2014 01:35 Celial wrote: The only thing that threw me off was the decisions they made in regards to "future characters". Catwoman is 10-15 years older than Bruce. Seems odd, she used to be a romantic interest for adult Bruce in all other instances. The Riddler is a coroner for the police and already old... The Penguin seemed really really REALLY socially awkward penguin and kind of retarded. Also a background in organized crime instead of wealthy family. A far cry from the brilliant tactician and criminal mastermind that is as skilled in hand to hand combat as Batman. Uhmm she's 13 or something Bruce is around that age too. | ||
karazax
United States3737 Posts
Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-Balloonman! Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-Balloonman! If you had any doubts that Gotham was the heir apparent to the 1960s Batman television series, this week’s episode features the debut of Gotham City’s first vigilante, a man that kills criminals by attaching weather balloons to their appendages and sending them floating into the air. It’s an absurd plot development that would feel right at home in a Silver Age comic, but it becomes totally nonsensical in a show that has one foot in a world of gritty realism. Well, more like a few toes in the world of gritty realism. The visual style of the series leans in the direction of the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy, but the writing becomes more and more cartoonish with each episode. Jim Gordon is a stoic do-gooder gumshoe that loves to stand around with his hands on his hips; Harvey Bullock is the incompetent partner with a warped moral compass and gruff attitude; Oswald Cobblepot is a criminal with delusions of grandeur and a willingness to kill anyone to get what he wants, including a pair of shoes that he could easily buy at a store. And oh yeah, a guy is walking around Gotham City attaching weather balloons to corrupt public servants who likely won’t be punished for their actions. Let’s get one thing straight: one weather balloon, especially one that is the size of the ones used by Davis “The Balloonman” Lamond (Dan Bakkedahl), cannot carry any human being larger than a very, very small baby. If this episode was about a deranged social worker attaching babies to weather balloons, it would be pretty ****ing scary, but using weather balloons as a vigilante’s weapon to kill bad guys is just silly. If I was a child, I would totally buy into the whole schtick, but I’m an adult that passed high school physics, so the gimmick falls completely flat. And as a Batman fan, I’m shaking my head as I see a version of the mythos where this crap is part of the inspiration for one of the greatest superheroes ever created. And yet, the Bruce Wayne scenes are the strongest parts of “The Balloonman.” While I hate the idea that Bruce gets the idea to become a vigilante because of Lamond’s actions, everything surrounding that plot point works out very well, making the Bruce and Alfred relationship the primary reason to check in on this show. The sword fight between Bruce and Alfred is the first moment on this series that actually presents something resembling joy, and it is a huge breath of fresh air. This is the kind of Batman foreshadowing I would love to see more of, hinting at elements of Bruce’s future while remembering that he’s still a child. The direction and music work to heighten the lightness of the scene’s early moments, and it creates a very nice point of contrast for when the scene takes a turn for the dramatic. David Mazouz is turning out to be quite a skilled child actor, and he has strong chemistry with Sean Pertwee’s Alfred, who is still stern, but a lot more fun than he was last week. Alfred is the parent now, and he needs to do what he can to protect a boy who is constantly ripping open old wounds because of the guilt he feels. Bruce plays detective, obsessing over the pictures and information in police reports in hopes of finding a clue, but he needs to pull himself out of Crime Alley if he’s ever going to heal. It’s notable that this episode doesn’t actually bring Gordon into the Bruce storyline, and the development of the story is more natural without forcing a police presence into it. We see Bruce and Alfred work through things on their own, and it gives us an idea of how important this relationship is in forming the man that Bruce will become. The female characters on this show are strangely stationary. Fish Mooney rarely leaves her club, and Barbara Kean may own an art gallery, but we never actually see her there. That sense of being trapped applies to their characterizations, and even though the script attempts to expand on Fish and Barbara this week, those developments fail to make them more interesting. We see more of Fish being duplicitous—first by coddling Lazlo before having her thugs get rids of him, and later when she chats with Falcone after setting up an “accident” for his girlfriend—but it’s just more of the same, especially with Jada Pinkett-Smith’s entertaining, but shallow performance. Pinkett-Smith is providing a lot of inspiration for drag queens here, but the longer she stays in this one-note diva mode, the harder it is to accept her character. Everyone on this show is overacting, remaining in the same exaggerated acting mode that characterized the first two episodes instead of settling into their characters and bringing more weight to their performances. They’re forced into these roles by the scripts, which are putting plot above character instead of having the two elements inform each other. We still know very little about who these characters are outside of their work, and for characters like Barbara Kean, “work” actually means “her fiancé’s work.” In “The Balloonman,” Barbara once again exists to serve Jim’s story. Her first conversation with him is a recap that reminds Jim of how much of a hero he is for solving the Wayne murder, working to heighten Jim’s guilt while continuing to cast Barbara as the supportive wife-to-be. Barbara’s second scene brings her unfortunate relationship with Renee Montoya back into the spotlight, revealing that not only were they lesbian lovers, but they were also junkies. And Barbara may be using again. (Nothing says potential drug addict like wet hair.) But wait! Isn’t this an example of character development for Barbara? As misguided as it may be, the decision to make a Barbara a secret bisexual and former junkie does add new dimensions to her character, but the show’s writers are uninterested in exploring these plot elements with any nuance. These aren’t different sides of her character so much as they are labels given to Barbara to change her relationship with Jim, and that’s what is important. Renee enters Barbara’s home without solicitation, accuses Barbara of being high, tells Barbara that her fiancé killed a man (despite not having any real proof beyond Oswald’s disappearance), and then tries to kiss her. It’s wildly inappropriate behavior for a police officer, but if Renee’s actions can switch up the Barbara/Jim dynamic, who cares if her behavior is totally out of line? Over at GCPD, the relationship between Gordon and Bullock continues to run on intense whisper conversations and the occasional jazz-rock montage, a tactic that isn’t working out especially well. Harvey Bullock remains laughably inept at his job, ignoring his obligations as a detective because of his personal feelings toward the Balloonman’s victims, and Gordon is there to tell his partner that he’s doing everything wrong. Donal Logue has the Bullock look, but his characterization is verging on clownish, so comically ambivalent about his job that it’s impossible to take him seriously when the script puts him in a weightier position. After The Balloonman claims his first victim, a banker who swindled half of Gotham out of its savings, Bullock actually delivers this line: “Danzer was a bum, he got what he deserved. I’m gonna go get a Danish. That’s what I deserve.” Bullock has no motivation to work this case until a crooked cop is killed, and even then it’s not because Bullock feels any sense of fraternity with the deceased, but because he’s worried about his own life now that Balloonman is targeting cops. Bullock is a despicable character, and the longer the show withholds the character’s redeeming qualities, the less interesting he is as a supporting character. After spending an entire week away from Gotham City, Oswald Cobblepot returns because the writers probably ran out of idea for how to make the character interesting outside of the city limits. Once inside the city limits, the writers have one idea: keep Oswald killing. He gets recognized in the line for a food truck and gets pulled into an alley by an angry goon, so he cuts the guy’s ACL and then stabs him to death. Assuming the tuna sandwich Oswald buys is approximately $5, he has $95 of the $100 he stole from the dead man, but when he’s finds out he needs to buy new shoes to work in a kitchen, Oswald decides to murder the dishwasher and steal his footwear rather than spending some of that newly acquired dough. Interesting strategy for someone that should be laying low. Oswald ends up getting the job, putting him in a position where he can listen in on conversations had by Sal Maroni (David Zayas), Falcone’s major rival in the Gotham underworld. This provides the tiniest bit of advancement on the mob war front— Asylum is going to factor into it somehow—but it’s mostly just a way to get Oswald back into the game despite being publicly known as a snitch. He has some sort of plan going on here, as evidenced by his appearance at Gordon’s door during this episode’s cliffhanger, but we’ll have to wait until next week to find out what that is. Assuming, of course, that the cliffhanger is resolved. Remember last week’s cliffhanger with Selina Kyle telling Gordon that she knew who really killed the Waynes? Tonight’s episode starts to follow-up on that dangling thread before literally taking a detour through ****, and then Selina disappears for the rest of the story. That’s not necessarily a bad thing because Camren Bicondova isn’t the strongest actor, but it’s frustrating from a plot perspective. Gordon takes Selina back to Crime Alley, then immediately starts wondering why he should believe her instead of getting information he could use to track down the Waynes’ killer. I’m no expert on police procedure, so maybe it’s regular practice to make sure a witness was actually at the scene before getting information, but it all feels like a way to delay the resolution of last week’s cliffhanger for a few more weeks. The Wayne murder investigation is the driving force of this show’s narrative, but the baby steps taken in this episode make that essential aspect of the story feel like an afterthought. Stray observations: •A corrupt cop beats perps with the award he got for his years of service. This show has no concept of subtlety. •Everyone in the GCPD is very comfortable with airing dirty laundry in public. Lots of intense conversations about secrets being held where everyone can hear. •“The Diddling Priest” is a nickname that is not remotely clever. •Did Bullock and Gordon think that balloons go all the way up into space? •“Honestly, I just got a chill.” •“He killed people. That made him a criminal.” Very nice delivery from David Mazouz on this line. | ||
GranDim
Canada1214 Posts
| ||
Meepman
Canada610 Posts
| ||
Acrofales
Spain17187 Posts
I hope The Flash is better. | ||
Bam Lee
2336 Posts
Also hate the alfred. Though i might be biased from the batman movies | ||
Musicus
Germany23567 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I'm really looking forward to see how Bruce and Alfred will clean up Wayne Industries. | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
| ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
| ||
bearbuddy
3442 Posts
| ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
What was even the purpose of the Cat scene? | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
...or something. | ||
AllHailHydraGod
80 Posts
| ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
On October 22 2014 04:08 AllHailHydraGod wrote: In a way Gotham is like the opposite of Game of Thrones because you know that none of the main characters are going to die. Unless this Penguin is killed and the real penguin comes to replace him. Rince and repeat for each character. Ofc some of the characters are just red herrings. | ||
KwarK
United States40776 Posts
It's kind of a joke at this point. | ||
Sermokala
United States13542 Posts
Viper was actualy prettty cool and the hints of it being the prequil to venom was really nicely done. I can't wait for bane. | ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
| ||
Dav1oN
Ukraine3159 Posts
| ||
Acrofales
Spain17187 Posts
| ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
| ||
HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
| ||
Tennet
United States1458 Posts
On October 29 2014 08:51 HeeroFX wrote: It's a fun show. Better than anything else I watch lol. But my theory is that penguin is not penguin. Rather he becomes the joker. Think about it, he is clearly not the penguin from the comics. But his personally fits the jokers. You do know that Oswald Cobblepot is the Penguin? | ||
KristofferAG
Norway25710 Posts
Other than that it just feels like an action series. I really want it to be better and more interesting. | ||
Myrtroll
139 Posts
Proper villains make the show. Without him it would just be some boring cop show ^^ | ||
shell
Portugal2722 Posts
| ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
| ||
Ej_
47656 Posts
they revealed the romance of Barbara with that woman from the police. | ||
LuMiX
China5757 Posts
| ||
karazax
United States3737 Posts
Origin story from the Comics: In Batman Chronicles #3, told by Zsasz himself, it is learned that Victor Zsasz was the head of his own international company and had amassed a large personal fortune in addition to his family's wealth. At the age of 25 his parents died in a boating accident, sending him into a deep depression. He turned to gambling, losing money in competitions around the world. One night, he ended up in a Gotham City casino known as the Iceberg Lounge, where he gambled everything he owned and ended up losing it all to the Penguin; afterwards he saw that his life was empty, driven by desire, and there was no point to his existence. While he was attempting to commit suicide by jumping from Gotham Bridge, a homeless man tried to assault him with a knife after he refused to give him money. Instinctively grabbing the knife, Zsasz saw in the man's eyes that all life is meaningless and that nothing nor anyone matters. He then proceeded to stab the man to death as a "gift" for saving his life. From then on, he dedicated himself to "liberating" others from their pointless existence (Zsasz often refers to victims as "zombies"). He usually preys on young women, but has no qualms over whom he murders. He slits his victims' throats and leaves them in lifelike poses, adding a tally mark to himself each time. He has been diagnosed as insane and is regularly incarcerated in Arkham Asylum courtesy of Batman, breaking out on occasion to carry on killing. Didn't watch the episode, but the origin story could have worked as a good episode. | ||
sertas
Sweden815 Posts
| ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On November 05 2014 05:59 karazax wrote: A serial killer Batman villain from the comics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Zsasz Origin story from the Comics: In Batman Chronicles #3, told by Zsasz himself, it is learned that Victor Zsasz was the head of his own international company and had amassed a large personal fortune in addition to his family's wealth. At the age of 25 his parents died in a boating accident, sending him into a deep depression. He turned to gambling, losing money in competitions around the world. One night, he ended up in a Gotham City casino known as the Iceberg Lounge, where he gambled everything he owned and ended up losing it all to the Penguin; afterwards he saw that his life was empty, driven by desire, and there was no point to his existence. While he was attempting to commit suicide by jumping from Gotham Bridge, a homeless man tried to assault him with a knife after he refused to give him money. Instinctively grabbing the knife, Zsasz saw in the man's eyes that all life is meaningless and that nothing nor anyone matters. He then proceeded to stab the man to death as a "gift" for saving his life. From then on, he dedicated himself to "liberating" others from their pointless existence (Zsasz often refers to victims as "zombies"). He usually preys on young women, but has no qualms over whom he murders. He slits his victims' throats and leaves them in lifelike poses, adding a tally mark to himself each time. He has been diagnosed as insane and is regularly incarcerated in Arkham Asylum courtesy of Batman, breaking out on occasion to carry on killing. Didn't watch the episode, but the origin story could have worked as a good episode. Batman has so much blood on his hands by letting so many of his rogues live and murder other people later. | ||
PardonYou
United States1360 Posts
On November 05 2014 23:07 -Archangel- wrote: Batman has so much blood on his hands by letting so many of his rogues live and murder other people later. I finished a book, "Batman and Philosophy," earlier this year and it has a large portion dedicated to this very idea. I found it very interesting, yet a little repetitive and stretches it's point a little too much sometimes. | ||
KwarK
United States40776 Posts
| ||
b_unnies
3579 Posts
| ||
GWdeathscythe
Brazil1091 Posts
| ||
ImDrizzt
Norway427 Posts
On November 05 2014 04:21 Ej_ wrote: Watched 3 episodes and it's been all fun until + Show Spoiler + they revealed the romance of Barbara with that woman from the police. It's cooler than you think, after watching episode 7, I had to run and tell my mates on skype about it. Holy fuck, it suddenly got x10 deeper, and much, much more awesome. Suddenly the show went from being "pretty cool", to fucking amazing lol. | ||
ImDrizzt
Norway427 Posts
Penguin guy, also doing awesome, way over average. The main villain, also great. Even the cops are alright, and the butler, great to. The black chick is fine to I guess, but not as awesome as the ones I mentioned. Cool to have a show I look forward to, like Fargo, Breaking Bad, Got, True Detectives, House of Cards etc. | ||
Usul
Germany150 Posts
On October 29 2014 08:51 HeeroFX wrote: It's a fun show. Better than anything else I watch lol. But my theory is that penguin is not penguin. Rather he becomes the joker. Think about it, he is clearly not the penguin from the comics. But his personally fits the jokers. Its OK to mention and link original ideas, its not OK to pretend it was yours. | ||
ahw
Canada1099 Posts
On November 06 2014 07:40 Usul wrote: Its OK to mention and link original ideas, its not OK to pretend it was yours. Oh relax. Its really not that big of a stretch to think someone else thought the characters were similar. Its not exactly a mind blowing theory. Besides, the writing on this show has been pretty straight forward with the occasional fan-service sprinkled in. That said I like the show. Its pretty simple but the vibe is great and the feeling is spot on. | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
| ||
karazax
United States3737 Posts
When Gotham isn’t digging its teeth into the mob power struggle that’s propeling most of the action this season, it’s struggling immensely to find a compelling tone or narrative. The show has no definitive voice yet, no innovative or interesting rules, tropes, or tics that remind us why we’re investing 44 minutes every week across 22 episodes. As evidence by “The Mask,” Gotham is settling into a welcome groove when focused on the city’s underground forces–Falcone, Cobblepot, Maroni, and Mooney–yet still can’t find a way to make its case of the week feel significant, either in terms of larger narrative arcs or the character development of Jim Gordon. This week’s villain is essentially Jordan Belfort with a penchant for murder and samurai swords, a big investor who runs a fight club of sorts in an abandoned building, where job applicants fight for the right to work under the big boss. The most recent battle results in a death, and so goes the introduction to another bland procedural. All the hallmarks of the milquetoast genre are present: an opening scene that shows the murder yet doesn’t let us know exactly what happened; smash cut to the body of the victim, and the forensic team on site; cut to Bullock spilling coffee on himself and saying “what a way to start the day”; cut to Edward Nygma making a joke about fingerprints while dislodging part of a finger from the victim’s throat; cut to opening credits and theme by The Who (ok, maybe that last one didn’t happen, but you get the point). Very little comes of the procedural this week. It may not be as ludicrous as the Balloonman, but there’s little to no stakes here. Sure, Gotham tries its damnedest to get us to care about Gordon’s ongoing battle to ”stand up for the city,” giving Bullock a speech (though he wouldn’t call it a speech) that rouses the police force to spread out across the city and find Gordon, who’s gone missing while investigating the fight club. When Sarah Essen shows up at the episode’s end and helps save Gordon, it doesn’t feel like a triumph of the system, or a sudden turn for the GCPD towards actual policing. Instead, it’s a tidy end to an episode that’s supposed to make us cheer for Gordon, but only continues to outline how sloppy and inconsequential these procedural storylines can be. Where’s the tension or insight? Still, “The Mask” did have its fair share of forward momentum. As usual, Gotham is finding dramatic tension in the complex relationships of its big baddies. The ongoing struggle for power in the city, divided between Falcone, Cobblepot, Mooney, and Maroni, has the kind of stakes and thematic depth that the procedural portions of this show lack. There’s elements of class division and gentrification built into just about any mob storyline, and this one is no exception. Doman’s presence is sorely missed this episode, but it does give Jada Pinkett Smith and Robin Lord Taylor room to ham it up. The scene where Cobblepot attempts a halfhearted reconciliation with Mooney is verbose and colorful, finding just the right balance between gritty mob drama and cartoonish superhero villainy. It also serves to further enhance the dramatic stakes going forward. We understand why Mooney and Cobblepot are in this, and what they’re fighting for. There’s narrative clarity here, which works to the show’s benefit. The theme that ties all the storylines together in this episode is fighting; fighting for what you believe in, fighting for what’s right. Gordon fights for what he thinks is best for the city, and also for his life. Bullock fights for respect for his partner. Cobblepot and Mooney fight for the upper hand in their ongoing war. The best distillation of this theme though is Bruce Wayne’s storyline, where Lil’ Wayne (is it cool if I call him that?) goes back to school, and like all private schools on television, the children are all their to bully him and make fun of him for having dead parents. We’re introduced to Tommy (later to be Hush), a particularly villainous child who wants to know if Bruce saw any blood and guts when his parents were shot. Later, after enduring more verbal humiliation, Bruce has had enough and hits Tommy. They fight, and Bruce comes out with the worst of it. He doesn’t know how to fight. Thankfully, Alfred, that punchy old Brit, is there to see to his revenge. He drives Bruce to Tommy’s house and gives him permission to knock Tommy’s teeth out. Alfred’s complicity in the attack is interesting, in that it further develops the bond between him and Bruce that we all know blossoms into the future, while also suggesting that maybe Alfred knows more than he’s letting on. Is he letting Bruce fight because he needs to teach him a lesson, or does Alfred know more about the ongoings in Gotham than your average butler? Does he understand that Bruce may have to defend himself, and his family’s name, in the future? We’ll find out in time, but for now, “The Mask” serves as the embodiment of this show at its best (character study) and worst (police procedural). Stray observations: •Selina Kyle is back, and is still a terible thief. Or she’s trying to get caught because Gordon is dreamy. •Barbara’s leaves the apartment at episode’s end. What are the odds she’s captured and used as a hostage at some point in a future episode? •Donal Logue is getting better as Bullock with each episode; more sarcastic, but also a better policeman. The closer he comes to being Hank Dolworth the better. •The score is so overbearing on this show. That triumphant build when Gordon might kill the wall street bro? Ugly stuff. •Bruce, like any good future superhero, wants to eat pizza after punching a dude in the mouth. •“I’d give you a good cop routine, but it’s not in my tool kit.” | ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
Cat and Bruce stuff is blah. Some nice curveballs here and there but things need to get coherent. The behavior of each characters seems to depend on the need of the specific episode. | ||
Serejai
6007 Posts
Take Penguin, for example. They spent an entire episode building it up that OMG IS HE GONNA DIE!?!?! but we all knew he couldn't die. I suppose that works fine for someone who's never heard of Batman before, but surely that can't be the audience they are writing for; after all, it's a minority. Plus, they spent the first three or four episodes pretty much going "HEY GUYS THIS IS THE RIDDLER. THIS IS CATWOMAN. THIS IS THE PENGUIN" and stuff. So, the problem is that it's hard to care about any of the major villains because we know nothing bad will happen to them. We also know nothing bad will happen to the good guys for the same reason. Gordon isn't going to end up losing a leg or anything. On the other hand, the minor villains and/or new ones only seem to get one episode each - not nearly enough time to make me actually care about them. This tends to be why origin stories in general suck. Smallville started off promising and then turned into a train wreck. Gotham seems to still be on a track, but likely the wrong one. It's only a matter of time. | ||
sertas
Sweden815 Posts
| ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Mr Bond I have you now but I am going to hold a long dialogue and let my goons take care of you while I will no longer waste time on you since you are not worth my time. etc. | ||
HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
| ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On January 28 2015 02:12 sertas wrote: y the penguin thing this episode was so weird, fish wanted to kill pengiun, he finds him completely off guard, DOESNT KILL HIM??? Waits forever, then the falcone gang comes and instead of putting a bullet in penguin and running, they just run instead. Like wtf You do know this is a show based on comics? Batman got away due to these situations more than once. | ||
Acrofales
Spain17187 Posts
| ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
| ||
Manit0u
Poland17046 Posts
On January 28 2015 01:57 Serejai wrote: So, the problem is that it's hard to care about any of the major villains because we know nothing bad will happen to them. We also know nothing bad will happen to the good guys for the same reason. Gordon isn't going to end up losing a leg or anything. I think that the portrayal of Barabara in this show was pretty surprising. I kind of like the Penguin being portrayed as something else than funny fat man with pointy nose and umbrella... Also, s02e03. Amazing stuff. | ||
0x64
Finland4395 Posts
They don't overthink the plot and the plot holes. Not too much drama like in Arrow/Flash. Of course it's not a show I will miss during the break sometimes, individual episodes surprised me with their quality. | ||
| ||