Idea I got from superview
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iSuXOr
United States606 Posts
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DV8
United States1623 Posts
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amat
United States1788 Posts
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iSuXOr
United States606 Posts
On April 30 2003 01:05 amat wrote: You could also tell whether someone clicked on a unit or building under the fog of war. Yeah they do that with war3 right? We need something like that for bw. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
I don't think it would take more than a week's work to implement for someone who possessed and understood the source code. Unfortunately, I don't think that there are any individuals at Blizzard who know the source code thoroughly anymore . | ||
iGgs
Russian Federation772 Posts
On April 30 2003 02:10 Bill307 wrote: Unfortunately, this idea would involve hacking into Starcraft.exe and modifying it appropriately . I don't think it would take more than a week's work to implement for someone who possessed and understood the source code. Unfortunately, I don't think that there are any individuals at Blizzard who know the source code thoroughly anymore . stop talking out of your ass please | ||
Xakepa[BG]
Bulgaria19 Posts
On April 30 2003 02:10 Bill307 wrote: Unfortunately, this idea would involve hacking into Starcraft.exe and modifying it appropriately . I don't think it would take more than a week's work to implement for someone who possessed and understood the source code. Unfortunately, I don't think that there are any individuals at Blizzard who know the source code thoroughly anymore . Hey I think you can do it by an ADDITIONAL PROGGY, that you launch and load with the replay's data(or say the clicks and keypresses of ONE of the players) and then the lil proggy just helps you alot by clicking on your minimap while you're watching the replay and, hmm, Starcraft is just replaying the thing for you.This way you'll see the areas where the player clicks.It also has to recognise clicks on the players minimap, so it doesn't show you something that the player actually doesn't look at.But what is the proggy going to show you when someone just uses controled buildings and trains units in them, without looking at them ? I suppose the rep file has clicks and keypresses, but not the complete DATASET of the players interaction with the game(like mouse moves, etc) hope it helps, hope someone gets an idea and is patient enough to do something to enhance our Starcraft experienc even further more. Have fun.And keep your eyes healthy.Good nite :-) | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
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AK-Nemesis
2005 Posts
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DV8
United States1623 Posts
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LumberJack
United States3355 Posts
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
On April 30 2003 01:00 DV8 wrote: where can I get superview? seems like nobody is helping you out. Gotta be annoying. So I'll do it http://www.battlereports.com/users/mick2/misc/SuperView.zip Thank Drone btw. | ||
Artenus
United States162 Posts
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rK
United States371 Posts
On April 30 2003 04:43 LumberJack wrote: if you going to work on something, then work on a replay analysis program. That runs the replay on 1/2 the screen and below it gives alist of the commands, and on another menu has the hotkeys and the clicks/sec rate. Then do end game analysis of highs for clicks, lows, average, curves blah blah. Mmm...so sexy. | ||
amat
United States1788 Posts
However, I am sure they are averse to "more work". Given, they are cool guys, and will probably release the source code to a few. The biggest draw back I can see is the source might reveal ways to alter replays, but anyone can fake replays anyhow. If I see them online I will ask for the source. Drone knows the maker, and the contributors better than me, though. To drone's ponder, it is definately possible to tell whether someone selected something under the fog of war, but it is more efficient to have a program do that than to figure it out by hand. | ||
jca
France273 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
if you want to do that, you should get a debugger and reverse engineer your own version. if you really wanted to do something which is possible, you could build in hack detection and graphing so that players can chart economic development, click rates, etc. but you won't because you are a scrubber who doesn't know how to do anything beyond posting. | ||
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
it would only reliably pick up flagrant clicks. | ||
jca
France273 Posts
If i can start from wherever those guys stopped, that is with the source code to read a .rep and produce that list of replay events in a nice textual format, it would take me something like a few days to write the rest. Now, if I had to start from scratch, I just wouldn't have the spare time to do it. Of course, if those guys are planning to continue working on their program, then I understand they won't want to give away their source code. Maybe they could then simply add a feature to export the list of events in a text file. But from what amat said, it seemed they were not thinking about doing any more work on it, so why not share the source code, or at least part of it? As to your idea of "reverse engineering" the code using a "debugger", please be my guest And while you're at it, please reverse engineer BW 1.10 as well and try fix the latest bugs. | ||
[CS]Pablo
Brazil338 Posts
On April 30 2003 16:37 jca wrote: Casper, what i'd like to do is mostly chart the economic development and display the various events in a graphical way, just the way they do in AOM. Might be interesting don't you think? If i can start from wherever those guys stopped, that is with the source code to read a .rep and produce that list of replay events in a nice textual format, it would take me something like a few days to write the rest. Now, if I had to start from scratch, I just wouldn't have the spare time to do it. A few days!? It would involve rewriting the whole BW logic. Suppose, for instance, that a player drops a reaver behind the mineral line, and the other one moves his probes away. You would need to calculate wheter the scarab did hit the intended probe or has been blocked in its way, how many probes have been killed by splash damage, and take into account things like the scarab being blocked by a mineral patch that maybe isn't there anymore because it's been mined out, or blocked by a rhynadon. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On April 30 2003 22:01 [CS]Pablo wrote: A few days!? It would involve rewriting the whole BW logic. Suppose, for instance, that a player drops a reaver behind the mineral line, and the other one moves his probes away. You would need to calculate wheter the scarab did hit the intended probe or has been blocked in its way, how many probes have been killed by splash damage, and take into account things like the scarab being blocked by a mineral patch that maybe isn't there anymore because it's been mined out, or blocked by a rhynadon. Agreed. In short, yes, you would essentially have to re-write the SC:BW game engine. Really simple and trivial stuff could be done (e.g. calculating the player's clicks+keystrokes per second), but you'd never be able to calculate something like how much money a person has. You wouldn't even be able to calculate how much they spent, or how many units they built because dud (i.e. impossible) commands are also recorded. Almost -- if not -- anything remarkable would require three things: - SC:BW engine source code - SuperView source code (unnecessary if you have all the SC:BW source code, however) - one or more people with lots of time and enthusiasm Unfortunately, no one person seems to posses even two of these requirements at the moment . Even a program to simply follow around the player's clicks would have to access and decipher the RAM used by SC:BW to learn stuff like which building is ID ####, which units are hotkeyed to #, etc. Even then, I wouldn't call something like that "remarkable", just nice. | ||
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
On April 30 2003 16:37 jca wrote: Casper, what i'd like to do is mostly chart the economic development and display the various events in a graphical way, just the way they do in AOM. Might be interesting don't you think? If i can start from wherever those guys stopped, that is with the source code to read a .rep and produce that list of replay events in a nice textual format, it would take me something like a few days to write the rest. Now, if I had to start from scratch, I just wouldn't have the spare time to do it. Of course, if those guys are planning to continue working on their program, then I understand they won't want to give away their source code. Maybe they could then simply add a feature to export the list of events in a text file. But from what amat said, it seemed they were not thinking about doing any more work on it, so why not share the source code, or at least part of it? As to your idea of "reverse engineering" the code using a "debugger", please be my guest And while you're at it, please reverse engineer BW 1.10 as well and try fix the latest bugs. #1. it doesn't take long to write a replay analyzer if you are competent. i'm talking maybe 48 hours of work. #2. it is illegal, and by making the source available he opens himself up to legal possibilities. blizzard has shown they will go after everyone from gamei to websites. #3. if you wanted to do it and were competent, you'd already know the steps involved and be halfway done by now instead of posting about it on some forum. | ||
Liquid`Nazgul
22426 Posts
wtf | ||
imRadu
1798 Posts
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NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
On May 01 2003 01:45 imRadu wrote: whats illegal about a replay analyzer? hacking into the blizzard product. | ||
imRadu
1798 Posts
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NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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amat
United States1788 Posts
An analizer on the other hand violates... hmm, best not get into that | ||
BosNia)_zL.99
Canada98 Posts
On May 01 2003 00:25 Casper... wrote: #1. it doesn't take long to write a replay analyzer if you are competent. i'm talking maybe 48 hours of work. #2. it is illegal, and by making the source available he opens himself up to legal possibilities. blizzard has shown they will go after everyone from gamei to websites. #3. if you wanted to do it and were competent, you'd already know the steps involved and be halfway done by now instead of posting about it on some forum. why did u just write all that? and why would u spend 48hours doing that shit.. | ||
BosNia)_zL.99
Canada98 Posts
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expostfacto
United States365 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
http://mapage.noos.fr/spyderman/bwchart.htm As Casper implied, I'm not smart enough to uncompress and cut a .rep to pieces myself, therefore I decided to use SuperView to do it instead and then write a little standalone tool that will grab the data from SuperView. So basically, you start SuperView, load a replay with it and then start bwchart.exe and click "load replay". That will read the action list from the SuperView window and display some charts. Works on Windows 2000/XP, but not on 98. It's still a very early prototype, started yesterday, but It'll give an idea. | ||
NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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Meat
Netherlands3751 Posts
would be cool if it could also show the total number of actions from a player. would not be too hard i think. | ||
.YouJustGotRapeD
United States227 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
So for example, an SCV bringing 8 minerals to a CC is not recorded. A unit dying under ennemy fire is not recorded. A building being destroyed: not recorded. Therefore, you can't even compute how much mineral each player has at any one time. But you what you can compute (or at least estimate) is how much a player spent, because every time he builds something or trains a unit, you get an action for it in the replay file, and you know how much mineral/gas/supply it cost. So all in all I think you get an interesting information on the player's "economy" throughout the game. Same thing for units. You can't tell how many a player has at any one time, but how many he built since the beginning of the game. Meat, I will display the total number of actions per player, plus some filtering so you can choose what kind of actions you want to count. I was also thinking of displaying some histograms to show how many of each unit was built by each player. Any other suggestion is welcome. | ||
FridayLove
United States1478 Posts
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Pol
Poland1187 Posts
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FridayLove
United States1478 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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FridayLove
United States1478 Posts
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Roman
United States2595 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
AmUtopia, indeed it seems like the SuperView.zip that was there 1h ago has been suddenly removed...That was the original link that Drone provided everybody with, so hopefully it'll be available again later. Otherwise, give me your email and I'll send it to you. | ||
NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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Meat
Netherlands3751 Posts
http://members.home.nl/gijoy/SuperView.exe | ||
Roman
United States2595 Posts
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
But you what you can compute (or at least estimate) is how much a player spent, because every time he builds something or trains a unit, you get an action for it in the replay file, and you know how much mineral/gas/supply it cost. So all in all I think you get an interesting information on the player's "economy" throughout the game. Same thing for units. You can't tell how many a player has at any one time, but how many he built since the beginning of the game. This is incorrect: you're forgetting that the rep also records superfluous commands, and it doesn't record when a build command of some sort fails =/. | ||
FridayLove
United States1478 Posts
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Meat
Netherlands3751 Posts
On May 02 2003 03:12 Bill307 wrote: jca, gj with the program . This is incorrect: you're forgetting that the rep also records superfluous commands, and it doesn't record when a build command of some sort fails =/. i think he knows that, he says estimate.. | ||
jca
France273 Posts
I noticed that on a game between Androide & Daaman. Suddenly, Androide's minerals was going up very rapidly. I checked the actions list and realized he was trying to build many high templars in a very short time slice. Most of those actions probably failed as he was clicking until resources would be sufficient. I will try to detect that kind of behavior and adjust for it. | ||
jca
France273 Posts
http://mapage.noos.fr/spyderman/bwchart.htm | ||
Aqeloutro
Spain614 Posts
Nice job jca. | ||
NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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Meat
Netherlands3751 Posts
i noticed a little bug though. Load for expample the first game naz vs kiwi. Venice clicked quicker on something then naz and now it compares kiwi with venice. | ||
jca
France273 Posts
I still have some work to do on the techs/buildings/units as a few of them are not translated by SuperView (so i get hex numbers instead of names). I guess I'll have to create fake games and create all the possible units, buildings and upgrade myself, for each race... | ||
)Is(Honest
Korea (South)417 Posts
when i try loading bwchart freezes T_T; anyone know how to fix that? | ||
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
the only westerner who compares is froz (220+), though didi and others are over 200. grrrr sits at around 140. elky 180. | ||
Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
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NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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FridayLove
United States1478 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
banana.milk Act/Min 267 zoz | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
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FridayLove
United States1478 Posts
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NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
If not, then does it freeze on every replay you try to load? If yes, then, hummm well, i don't know but if it freezes on one specific replay only, can you please post it somewhere so i can look at it? Thx | ||
esk0
Sweden1393 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
For interceptors, SuperView mixes interceptor & scarabs, so i can't tell the difference in bwchart. | ||
esk0
Sweden1393 Posts
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esk0
Sweden1393 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
On May 02 2003 20:46 [pG]Rekrul wrote: tsunami was 80~ per min effective proof of hack | ||
jca
France273 Posts
Regarding why i use SuperView, it's because i don't know how to read a replay file. It's compressed and i don't know how to decompress it. SuperView knows how to do that and displays a nice little list of actions that anybody can read, including bwchart | ||
NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
Also regarding the unit distribution graph, its hard to see if the number if a unit if the bar is very short id suggest put all the numbers on the left, right before the gragh and it'll be easier to read them. | ||
)Is(Honest
Korea (South)417 Posts
On May 02 2003 21:36 jca wrote: )Is(Honest, are you using Windows 98? If yes, then i'm sorry, but bwchart does not work on 98. If not, then does it freeze on every replay you try to load? If yes, then, hummm well, i don't know but if it freezes on one specific replay only, can you please post it somewhere so i can look at it? Thx hi, i'm using Windows ME.. and i tried several reps Y_Y plz help me!! i wanna try out ur program haha :p | ||
jca
France273 Posts
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AK-Nemesis
2005 Posts
but the program sounds cool, great job. | ||
mindspike
Canada1902 Posts
to make the actions more meaningful would it be good to filter out useless commands like rallying ten times | ||
NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
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)Is(Honest
Korea (South)417 Posts
On May 03 2003 10:13 jca wrote: )Is(Honest, AK-Nemesis, version 1.00M should work fine under Windows 98. Can you try it? Thx thanks alot it works now its very nice.. i love u | ||
jca
France273 Posts
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NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
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)Is(Honest
Korea (South)417 Posts
his homepage is being updated every hour :D | ||
Pol
Poland1187 Posts
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Aqeloutro
Spain614 Posts
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LaptopLegacy
Netherlands602 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
I'll try to fine tune the detection mechanism as much as i can. | ||
Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
xp worked fine when i tested it but i got home and used it on 98, and everytime i load up a rep, then want to load up a new one or close it down, bwchart stays in applications stillrunning even if i shut it down, and i have to alt ctrl delete it out and then close superview before i can look at a 2nd one. haven't restarted yet as i'm lazy... but soon i'll get to fed up with it and test out a restart | ||
PheaRSome
United States584 Posts
On May 03 2003 16:54 )Is(Honest wrote: kek his homepage is being updated every hour :D go pcbang tt | ||
Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
have an option to not include hotkeys. i can abuse it and get 700 hotkeys a min easy.(i have!) this is why ilnps final games clicks a min are so high u can see his hotkeying is absolutely insane but everything else is actually slower. | ||
NeaX
80 Posts
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(viet)TyPe_R
Vietnam156 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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NoName
United States1558 Posts
I'm just thinking of the demise of gamei and the bnetd. So far AFAIK Bliz has only gone after battle.net competitors. Nice job in figuring out the replay format. A long time ago I spent a day looking at replay files, but could not make any headway as to how to decode them... Curious, what tools do you use? | ||
NoNameLoser
United States1508 Posts
Oh and i encountered some odd error that made my XP to shut bwcart down when i try to refresh replay list of my whole [maps] folder. Also it would be very cool if you could put the exact time for every building built (like to .1 of a second or something). Amd a question, doesthe build time represent the actual building starting building or a player telling his worker to build a building somehwere? | ||
Powerpill
United States1692 Posts
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jca
France273 Posts
http://mapage.noos.fr/spyderman/bwchart-w.exe If that still doesn't work, could you leave me your email so i can send you a debug version? Thx | ||
jca
France273 Posts
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uT)CyrAx
United States282 Posts
excellent program bw yet again gains technology in leaps and bounds...a new revolution! bw will live! t.t but ya its good | ||
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