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On October 01 2012 01:22 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 01:09 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:smokeyhoodoo, S_SienZ, and NeMeSiS3 Are your posts even serious replies? Du you just hit post without even knowing what the thing you are replying to means? What skills do you require to be a prostitute if all you need is a vagina? How you are marketed after that is another matter, but as far as being "qualified" for the "job", all you need is a vagina (if you are a woman prostitute, and lets not talk about prostitutes of other gender to limit the discussion). Same reply to the "experience" argument. 3. I don't think I understand this, it largely sounds like mumbo jumbo. It also sounds like something that isn't relevant. If someone wants to submit something intrinsically ethical, whatever the hell that means, I'd say they can do so if they damn please. But wouldn't something like modelling be doing the same thing? Modelling is considered legitimate work. Judith Butler. "Intrinsically ethical" means the "power positioning" of owning your body. I would have to say that your post is just as poorly thought out as those you are criticizing. Let me explain by examples: To be a prostitute all you need is a vagina To work an assembly job all you need is hands To be president all you need is citizenship These are all drastic oversimplifications which have no practical use. Furthermore, they serve to dehumanize the worker and discredit the profession. What skill do you need in order to be a photo model, or stand in an assembly line? Just because it takes none, or, atleast to you "seems" it takes none doesn't mean that it isnt a profression or that it doesn't take skill.
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On October 01 2012 01:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 01:34 smokeyhoodoo wrote:On October 01 2012 01:09 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:smokeyhoodoo, S_SienZ, and NeMeSiS3 Are your posts even serious replies? Du you just hit post without even knowing what the thing you are replying to means? What skills do you require to be a prostitute if all you need is a vagina? How you are marketed after that is another matter, but as far as being "qualified" for the "job", all you need is a vagina (if you are a woman prostitute, and lets not talk about prostitutes of other gender to limit the discussion). Same reply to the "experience" argument. 3. I don't think I understand this, it largely sounds like mumbo jumbo. It also sounds like something that isn't relevant. If someone wants to submit something intrinsically ethical, whatever the hell that means, I'd say they can do so if they damn please. But wouldn't something like modelling be doing the same thing? Modelling is considered legitimate work. Judith Butler. "Intrinsically ethical" means the "power positioning" of owning your body. Your mind is scattered and strange. I really dun't hit reply without reading, what skills does sex have? Well there is a reason there is "bad sex, good sex" and if sex is legalized and brothels have prostitutes with meager to no skills in the sack then no one would go there... It's even relatively insulting to women in general that you're implying good sex just requires a vagina and laying there ^^
You just made it official. You are a fool who just hits reply but dun'tread and understand the post first. Whether a woman knows how to give "good sex" or not is external to the argument when the issue at hand is that all you need to be a (woman) prostitute is a vagina, and having a vagina is not a skill.
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On September 30 2012 12:48 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:09 Zooper31 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal has any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know. Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested. It seems like you are pointing out an inaccuracy in what I said, but I don't see any. Bigtony was implying that making prostitution illegal would rescue people from the need to do things such as sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. Obviously, it wasn't his intention (I assume), but to be sure/clear I pointed out that whether it's illegal or not does not affect whether or not people are compelled to such drastic measures. Your statement seems to imply that I was saying making hard drug dealing legal will make people less likely to feel the need to be drug dealers... which I was not aiming for. I won't justify a stance of "make prostitution legal" with "making it legal/illegal doesn't make the need for income go away" lol
Few pages back but I just wanted to clarify:
My point is not that making prostitution illegal will make people stop. My point is the exact opposite - making something legal or illegal does not change (for the most part) how people act. Even if prostitution is legalized (which I'm not really against because I think people should be able to do pretty much whatever they want without interference from the government), I would want people to not need/want to do it. I would want to live in a community that was strong enough that no one needed to be a prostitute and that no one would want to use their services.
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On October 01 2012 01:58 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 01:22 Jormundr wrote:On October 01 2012 01:09 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:smokeyhoodoo, S_SienZ, and NeMeSiS3 Are your posts even serious replies? Du you just hit post without even knowing what the thing you are replying to means? What skills do you require to be a prostitute if all you need is a vagina? How you are marketed after that is another matter, but as far as being "qualified" for the "job", all you need is a vagina (if you are a woman prostitute, and lets not talk about prostitutes of other gender to limit the discussion). Same reply to the "experience" argument. 3. I don't think I understand this, it largely sounds like mumbo jumbo. It also sounds like something that isn't relevant. If someone wants to submit something intrinsically ethical, whatever the hell that means, I'd say they can do so if they damn please. But wouldn't something like modelling be doing the same thing? Modelling is considered legitimate work. Judith Butler. "Intrinsically ethical" means the "power positioning" of owning your body. I would have to say that your post is just as poorly thought out as those you are criticizing. Let me explain by examples: To be a prostitute all you need is a vagina To work an assembly job all you need is hands To be president all you need is citizenship These are all drastic oversimplifications which have no practical use. Furthermore, they serve to dehumanize the worker and discredit the profession. What skill do you need in order to be a photo model, or stand in an assembly line? Just because it takes none, or, atleast to you "seems" it takes none doesn't mean that it isnt a profression or that it doesn't take skill. That is exactly what I said?
On October 01 2012 01:22 Jormundr wrote: These are all drastic oversimplifications which have no practical use. Furthermore, they serve to dehumanize the worker and discredit the profession.
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Another thread that should be closed -
This is another thread about free will. Prostitution should be legal because it's a choice. Suggesting that crime rate will rise after prostitution becomes legal is ludicrous because the only reason prostitution is in such a bad state in most countries is because it has to be run underground. It's the same reason people think that legalizing drugs would be bad - because they think that if more drugs available, that will mean more people will want them which then means more people will cause crime trying to get those drugs.
But if there was a readily available legal way to do that didn't require you to go through the Pharmacy, then we wouldn't have crime problems when it came to drugs. The same can be said about prostitution - If it were legal, the crimes surrounding it would go down because now there's a way to regulate it.
That's all that needs to be said.
User was warned for this post
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On October 01 2012 01:45 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 23:32 Yorbon wrote:On September 30 2012 23:11 nebula. wrote: People have such a retarded way of looking at free will.
Just because a person chooses to sell their body for money doesn't mean that person actually wants that. I think very very very few prostitutes actually do it by "pure free will". Selling one's body is not something you enjoy, even if it gives temporary physical pleasure. I'd say the very vast majority of prostitutes really don't enjoy their job and do it because it's the only way out of misery, or atleast a way to keep yourself from drowning. Just because a person chooses to work in a factory for money doesn't mean that person actually wants that. I think very very very few laborers actually do it by "pure free will". Working in a factory is not something you enjoy, even if it may give temporary physical pleasure. I'd say the very vast majority of laborers really don't enjoy their job and do it because it's the only way out of misery, or atleast a way to keep yourself from drowning. who says that's not an argument against the neutrality of work? maybe this form of work is wrong too. you're misunderstanding the point. Every job can be filled in his story. Maybe every form of work is wrong. Btw, i don't know what you mean by the neutrality of work.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On October 01 2012 02:12 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 01:45 oneofthem wrote:On September 30 2012 23:32 Yorbon wrote:On September 30 2012 23:11 nebula. wrote: People have such a retarded way of looking at free will.
Just because a person chooses to sell their body for money doesn't mean that person actually wants that. I think very very very few prostitutes actually do it by "pure free will". Selling one's body is not something you enjoy, even if it gives temporary physical pleasure. I'd say the very vast majority of prostitutes really don't enjoy their job and do it because it's the only way out of misery, or atleast a way to keep yourself from drowning. Just because a person chooses to work in a factory for money doesn't mean that person actually wants that. I think very very very few laborers actually do it by "pure free will". Working in a factory is not something you enjoy, even if it may give temporary physical pleasure. I'd say the very vast majority of laborers really don't enjoy their job and do it because it's the only way out of misery, or atleast a way to keep yourself from drowning. who says that's not an argument against the neutrality of work? maybe this form of work is wrong too. you're misunderstanding the point. Every job can be filled in his story. Maybe every form of work is wrong. Btw, i don't know what you mean by the neutrality of work. neutrality as in "this is a legit contractual agreement so it's okay, entirely free from ethical judgement."
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On October 01 2012 02:11 hoby2000 wrote: Another thread that should be closed -
This is another thread about free will. Prostitution should be legal because it's a choice. Suggesting that crime rate will rise after prostitution becomes legal is ludicrous because the only reason prostitution is in such a bad state in most countries is because it has to be run underground. It's the same reason people think that legalizing drugs would be bad - because they think that if more drugs available, that will mean more people will want them which then means more people will cause crime trying to get those drugs.
But if there was a readily available legal way to do that didn't require you to go through the Pharmacy, then we wouldn't have crime problems when it came to drugs. The same can be said about prostitution - If it were legal, the crimes surrounding it would go down because now there's a way to regulate it.
That's all that needs to be said. You mean close one of the best posts in the General section, despite the controversial nature of the issue? If TL were to close all the thread starting with the worst, this thread would be among the last 10 it would close. Also, there was a discussion, one that gave me migraines, on choice in pages 7 and 8 that might be useful for you.
I ask again, what the fuck was that discussion about?
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Zurich15260 Posts
On October 01 2012 02:41 xwoGworwaTsx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:11 hoby2000 wrote: Another thread that should be closed -
This is another thread about free will. Prostitution should be legal because it's a choice. Suggesting that crime rate will rise after prostitution becomes legal is ludicrous because the only reason prostitution is in such a bad state in most countries is because it has to be run underground. It's the same reason people think that legalizing drugs would be bad - because they think that if more drugs available, that will mean more people will want them which then means more people will cause crime trying to get those drugs.
But if there was a readily available legal way to do that didn't require you to go through the Pharmacy, then we wouldn't have crime problems when it came to drugs. The same can be said about prostitution - If it were legal, the crimes surrounding it would go down because now there's a way to regulate it.
That's all that needs to be said. You mean close one of the best posts in the General section, despite the controversial nature of the issue? If TL were to close all the thread starting with the worst, this thread would be among the last 10 it would close. Also, there was a discussion, one that gave me migraines, on choice in pages 7 and 8 that might be useful for you. I ask again, what the fuck was that discussion about? Unfortunately TL is in such a sorry state that even an excellent OP does nothing to stop all the idiots from dumping an endless thread of shit into General.
Compare this thread with an old TL thread about pretty much the same topic (especially page 9 and following) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62979
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On October 01 2012 02:45 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:41 xwoGworwaTsx wrote:On October 01 2012 02:11 hoby2000 wrote: Another thread that should be closed -
This is another thread about free will. Prostitution should be legal because it's a choice. Suggesting that crime rate will rise after prostitution becomes legal is ludicrous because the only reason prostitution is in such a bad state in most countries is because it has to be run underground. It's the same reason people think that legalizing drugs would be bad - because they think that if more drugs available, that will mean more people will want them which then means more people will cause crime trying to get those drugs.
But if there was a readily available legal way to do that didn't require you to go through the Pharmacy, then we wouldn't have crime problems when it came to drugs. The same can be said about prostitution - If it were legal, the crimes surrounding it would go down because now there's a way to regulate it.
That's all that needs to be said. You mean close one of the best posts in the General section, despite the controversial nature of the issue? If TL were to close all the thread starting with the worst, this thread would be among the last 10 it would close. Also, there was a discussion, one that gave me migraines, on choice in pages 7 and 8 that might be useful for you. I ask again, what the fuck was that discussion about? Unfortunately TL is in such a sorry state that even an excellent OP does nothing to stop all the idiots from dumping an endless thread of shit into General. Compare this thread with an old TL thread about pretty much the same topic (especially page 9 and following) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62979 That thread has a horrible OP with practically nothing to discuss. If posters on this thread decide to go retarded, the solution is not to close the thread but to ban them.
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anyone who votes legal is a virgin but on a serious note it should be legal...
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It's just one of those things that are good in essence, yet we manage to fuck it up and make it something dark and sketchy. I think making this stuff legal and socially acceptable would make a big difference, yet I think it's hard or maybe even impossible to achieve.
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On October 01 2012 02:45 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:41 xwoGworwaTsx wrote:On October 01 2012 02:11 hoby2000 wrote: Another thread that should be closed -
This is another thread about free will. Prostitution should be legal because it's a choice. Suggesting that crime rate will rise after prostitution becomes legal is ludicrous because the only reason prostitution is in such a bad state in most countries is because it has to be run underground. It's the same reason people think that legalizing drugs would be bad - because they think that if more drugs available, that will mean more people will want them which then means more people will cause crime trying to get those drugs.
But if there was a readily available legal way to do that didn't require you to go through the Pharmacy, then we wouldn't have crime problems when it came to drugs. The same can be said about prostitution - If it were legal, the crimes surrounding it would go down because now there's a way to regulate it.
That's all that needs to be said. You mean close one of the best posts in the General section, despite the controversial nature of the issue? If TL were to close all the thread starting with the worst, this thread would be among the last 10 it would close. Also, there was a discussion, one that gave me migraines, on choice in pages 7 and 8 that might be useful for you. I ask again, what the fuck was that discussion about? Unfortunately TL is in such a sorry state that even an excellent OP does nothing to stop all the idiots from dumping an endless thread of shit into General. Compare this thread with an old TL thread about pretty much the same topic (especially page 9 and following) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62979
What?! That thread you linked looks terrible until about page 10, way worse than this. That thread would be locked within minutes now days.
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I don't believe anyone who ended up in prostitution set out to do so. I think it's a result of misfortune. However, I'd be really interested if there was some evidence for that, as I've never seen any, it's just a belief with no basis in good evidence.
Although, that's not particularly an argument for it being illegal. All over the world people have to take shit jobs they don't want to be doing, remove the job and that person is in an even worse scenario; that person has ended up as a prostitute because the other option is worse. And pragmatically speaking they'll likely do it anyway but in an illegal and unsafe fashion.
The only argument I'd support is that by making it legal you are somehow making it more socially acceptable, and I personally believe that it shouldn't be.
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On September 30 2012 19:13 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 18:31 DigiGnar wrote: If prostitutes are victims for being "pushed" into prostitution because of economic reasons, then you can say the same for pretty much any one who makes minimum wage. They are pushed into a shitty job because they can't get good ones. If you think prostitution should be illegal, then why not say something about minimum wage?
Would you pay a person with the IQ of 60 to do the same work a monkey can do for free? Well, you can't make monkeys work for you per se in the US, so you'd have to hire the person by law. This, in turn, would make the employer a victim, as well. They are being forced to pay for someone's life because he/she isn't able to really do much with his/her own. There literally is no skill in moping a floor or washing dishes.
Unless you want to help the person morally, but that can be bad for business. So, does morality make everyone a victim? Why else are the laws there? (Not for people of low IQ, but because of morals in general.) it makes no sense to equate or compare ones physical abilities with ones psychical abilities. to have a case here, you should compare a whole prostitute with a prostitute without hands or something and then argue who is pushed into what or who will get the good one. 60 iq prostitutes can/may be way better at their job then 100 iq ones. Edit: 'cause i refuse to believe that what you argued was: ' people become/end up prostitutes because they're stupid/have low IQ.'
What are you even talking about? "Makes no sense to compare the physical abilities of humans"? Am I reading that right? So, you're saying the Olympics makes no sense? Cause that surely is probably the BIGGEST comparison of human ability in history. All a prostitute needs is a dick/vagina. There are plenty of desperate people who don't care about if they are fucking someone without a hand. Shit, the person without the hand could end up turning more profit due to fetishes.
My argument is that if economic issues make prostitutes "victims" then everyone is a victim because employers must pay a certain amount for work they would rather pay far less, or it nothing at all, and that some people who take such jobs can't get great paying jobs because they don't have the mental capabilities to think on high levels. Everyone is a victim. Employers, employees, supply chain, and customers.
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On October 01 2012 02:56 Deadeight wrote: I don't believe anyone who ended up in prostitution set out to do so. I think it's a result of misfortune. However, I'd be really interested if there was some evidence for that, as I've never seen any, it's just a belief with no basis in good evidence.
Trust me quite a few actually set out to do so, especially single university students who are attractive enough to demand a high price. These people can afford to come all the way to the UK from China / Hong Kong to study funded by their parents so all that crap about being in a poor state financially is bullshit as foreign students pay about double to triple the amount of tuition fees compared to the locals.
Think about it, you're single, this is a way to "get some" in a practical, certain way in terms of scheduling etc and you have the potential to make bout 1k-2k GBP a night.
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On October 01 2012 03:04 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:56 Deadeight wrote: I don't believe anyone who ended up in prostitution set out to do so. I think it's a result of misfortune. However, I'd be really interested if there was some evidence for that, as I've never seen any, it's just a belief with no basis in good evidence.
Trust me quite a few actually set out to do so, especially single university students who are attractive enough to demand a high price. These people can afford to come all the way to the UK from China / Hong Kong to study funded by their parents so all that crap about being in a poor state financially is bullshit as foreign students pay about double to triple the amount of tuition fees compared to the locals. Think about it, you're single, this is a way to "get some" in a practical, certain way in terms of scheduling etc and you have the potential to make bout 1k-2k GBP a night.
What the hell?! Guess I'm naive about this stuff then.
But then I don't really understand why people would pay for a prostitute when picking up a girl is the easiest thing to do in a UK club. Though I guess quality is an issue.
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On October 01 2012 03:08 Deadeight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 03:04 S_SienZ wrote:On October 01 2012 02:56 Deadeight wrote: I don't believe anyone who ended up in prostitution set out to do so. I think it's a result of misfortune. However, I'd be really interested if there was some evidence for that, as I've never seen any, it's just a belief with no basis in good evidence.
Trust me quite a few actually set out to do so, especially single university students who are attractive enough to demand a high price. These people can afford to come all the way to the UK from China / Hong Kong to study funded by their parents so all that crap about being in a poor state financially is bullshit as foreign students pay about double to triple the amount of tuition fees compared to the locals. Think about it, you're single, this is a way to "get some" in a practical, certain way in terms of scheduling etc and you have the potential to make bout 1k-2k GBP a night. What the hell?! Guess I'm naive about this stuff then. But then I don't really understand why people would pay for a prostitute when picking up a girl is the easiest thing to do in a UK club. Though I guess quality is an issue. Ye quality is def an issue.
If you're interested in knowing more I believe there was an article online bout a matchmaking website (basically uni girls and rich men would sign up to get matched) and the owners released some statistics bout which unis had the most girls pursuing such stuff. Amongst the chinese this type of thing is called "compensated dating" instead of prostitution.
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On October 01 2012 03:00 DigiGnar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 19:13 xM(Z wrote:On September 30 2012 18:31 DigiGnar wrote: If prostitutes are victims for being "pushed" into prostitution because of economic reasons, then you can say the same for pretty much any one who makes minimum wage. They are pushed into a shitty job because they can't get good ones. If you think prostitution should be illegal, then why not say something about minimum wage?
Would you pay a person with the IQ of 60 to do the same work a monkey can do for free? Well, you can't make monkeys work for you per se in the US, so you'd have to hire the person by law. This, in turn, would make the employer a victim, as well. They are being forced to pay for someone's life because he/she isn't able to really do much with his/her own. There literally is no skill in moping a floor or washing dishes.
Unless you want to help the person morally, but that can be bad for business. So, does morality make everyone a victim? Why else are the laws there? (Not for people of low IQ, but because of morals in general.) it makes no sense to equate or compare ones physical abilities with ones psychical abilities. to have a case here, you should compare a whole prostitute with a prostitute without hands or something and then argue who is pushed into what or who will get the good one. 60 iq prostitutes can/may be way better at their job then 100 iq ones. Edit: 'cause i refuse to believe that what you argued was: ' people become/end up prostitutes because they're stupid/have low IQ.' My argument is that if economic issues make prostitutes "victims" then everyone is a victim because employers must pay a certain amount for work they would rather pay far less, or it nothing at all, and that some people who take such jobs can't get great paying jobs because they don't have the mental capabilities to think on high levels. Everyone is a victim. Employers, employees, supply chain, and customers. Don't forget the desirability (not desire in terms of pleasure) of work. There is always an incentive needed to do work, but a work must have innate positive values socially and personally. This is tricky since you can ague that personal (sex feels good) and social (people "need" to have sex, "income", ) values also exist in prostitution, but they are certainly not comparable to professions like being a doctor (treating other people and the personal fulfillment of doing good or extending a person's life, albeit at the cost of a leg) an engineer, a lawyer etc. Victimhood in prostitution is more apparent because these elements are more problematic in prostitution that in other professions.
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This is a fantastic OP as prae said. I'm generally ambivalent on this issue and can definitely see why there are very good, legitimate points to be made for either side. If I had to take a stand, I think a stronger set of laws could potentially help, coupled with decriminalization.
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