Marvellosity, I agree that it's one of those topics that never even sees the light of day (honest debate), thus you can't help but be ignorant about it unless you purposely go digging. I think the drug "debate" is similarly tainted by one narrative which admits no nuance or questioning.
Prostitution - Page 21
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Glowsphere
United States170 Posts
Marvellosity, I agree that it's one of those topics that never even sees the light of day (honest debate), thus you can't help but be ignorant about it unless you purposely go digging. I think the drug "debate" is similarly tainted by one narrative which admits no nuance or questioning. | ||
soul55555
Canada45 Posts
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On June 22 2015 02:46 soul55555 wrote: Over here the government took an ideological approach to deal with Prostitution in Canada. The prostitutes are free to practice their trade, but it is illegal to purchase sexual services. Which has actually backfired and made things more dangerous for them. Now pimps can force them to work more without worry of them being caught, and customers are more nervous because they are the ones taking on most of the risk. One of those decisions that seemed good on paper but in application wasn't good. | ||
Glowsphere
United States170 Posts
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soul55555
Canada45 Posts
On June 22 2015 02:57 Glowsphere wrote: Wasn't that model based on Sweden? It seems kind of silly and nonsensical to me. Yes that's correct Sweden adopted the model of asymmetrical prohibition, which criminalizes the purchase of sexual services. Though in Canada prostitutes can still be arrested if they practice their trade near schools, churches and playground. | ||
Glowsphere
United States170 Posts
On June 22 2015 03:15 soul55555 wrote: Yes that's correct Sweden adopted the model of asymmetrical prohibition, which criminalizes the purchase of sexual services. Though in Canada prostitutes can still be arrested if they practice their trade near schools, churches and playground. I went to Googling for the intent behind asymmetrical prohibition, and found a document that reviews the arguments pretty succinctly: http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/412/lcjc/Briefs/C-36/SM_C-36_brief_John_Lowman_E.pdf The logic of asymmetrical prohibition rests on two main arguments denying that female sex sellers truly “consent” to sell sex. The first infantilizes sex sellers. Because the “average” prostitute began selling sex as a child, she never consents to acts of prostitution as an adult. She effectively is a child. The second holds that various inequalities – poverty, colonialism, patriarchal social relations – force females to sell sex. Because sex buyers exploit such females, the state should criminalize sex buyers, but not sellers, as they are the buyer’s victims. Is it wrong to say that asymmetrical prohibition is mostly politically and ideologically driven, specifically by feminists? | ||
TokO
Norway577 Posts
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Glowsphere
United States170 Posts
On June 22 2015 03:52 TokO wrote: Isn't there a practicality about giving forced sex sellers an avenue to seek help from authorities without being criminalised, after the fact of the act? That makes sense. I know in the US at least it is often the sellers being targeted in mass sting operations. I guess it becomes harder to make a distinction about what is forced, when we have influential parties arguing that it is all forced. | ||
killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On June 22 2015 03:52 TokO wrote: Isn't there a practicality about giving forced sex sellers an avenue to seek help from authorities without being criminalised, after the fact of the act? Actually, if I recall correctly, cops used to forward caught prostitutes to various help organizations rather than actually putting them behind bars. With the new legislation in Canada, they're no longer redirecting them, so many of the programs that were in place are no longer as effective and have to downsize. Essentially, the legislation made it so prostitutes are now ignored by police, which does even less to help them than what was happening previously. | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On June 21 2015 19:54 marvellosity wrote: That's strange, since prostitution is legal in UK. None of phrases you have used gets used by any media that I have read whenever such issues are being discussed by politicians in the UK.This is a huge problem. Not even necessarily for running a platform of it, but just being able to have a sensible debate. There are so many important issues that get drowned out by these histrionics. "Whore banger" as you say here, "junkies" on drug legalisation, "murderer" or "granny killer" for euthanasia. It's so tedious. | ||
tshi
United States2495 Posts
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
its hilarious that the feminists who argue women should do anything they want with their body and preach sexual empowerment suddenly do a 180 regarding prostitution. guess what feminists? the reason there are women coerced into sex slave trade is same reason drug cartels exist. as soon as it is made legal, the criminal element will lose to actual businesses. see history of US prohibition, a similarly moronic idea proposed by feminists that failed spectacularly. there are women who want to sell their bodies (see porn industry), not all of them are drug addicts with daddy issues. but for some reason feminists feel threatened by this. | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:07 fishjie wrote: legalization is a no brainer. just like legalizing drugs, it will destroy the criminal element, it will remove non violent offenders from the prison system so that their lives don't get ruined while the actual bad guys can be locked up, and there will be tons of tax revenue. its just win/win all around. that's really not true at all. Ever since liberalization of prostitution here in Germany human trafficking has increased as the legality of prostitution has created a huge grey area where prosecution is almost impossible. "Axel Dreher, a professor of international and development politics at the University of Heidelberg, has attempted to answer these questions, using data from 150 countries. The numbers were imprecise, as are all statistics relating to trafficking and prostitution, but he was able to identify a trend: Where prostitution is legal, there is more human trafficking than elsewhere." lengthy article about the topic | ||
G5
United States2832 Posts
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:21 Nyxisto wrote: that's really not true at all. Ever since liberalization of prostitution here in Germany human trafficking has increased as the legality of prostitution has created a huge grey area where prosecution is almost impossible. "Axel Dreher, a professor of international and development politics at the University of Heidelberg, has attempted to answer these questions, using data from 150 countries. The numbers were imprecise, as are all statistics relating to trafficking and prostitution, but he was able to identify a trend: Where prostitution is legal, there is more human trafficking than elsewhere." lengthy article about the topic Interesting, sounds like the problem is due to brothels and lower end prostitutes, not escorts. A number of working girls in Nevada have negative stories about working conditions there as well. I'm thinking with full legalization everywhere, it will move toward independent girls working legally. There's been quite a few articles written by former escorts who were not coerced and made lots of money. There's one by Torontolife.com called "Secret life of a bay street hooker". At work so not gonna link. But basically, these indepdent/agency girls make a ton of money a year and can carve out a good life for themselves. They choose their clientele and do the background checks, rather than brothel system where girls may be trafficked and they have no say in who they see and what is allowed. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
Over here the government took an ideological approach to deal with Prostitution in Canada. The prostitutes are free... I started packing my bags for Canada until I read the rest As for the selling of bodies, that's what most low skill jobs basically are. One simply becomes a cog in a machine and is rarely granted the freedom to be human. Obviously trafficking is bad, but we don't call farmers "labor traffickers" when they do the same or worse to their workers, many of whom are just as 'forced' into their job as a typical prostitute. One thing that should come with the legalization of prostitution is money management. Even at street prices a decent prostitute can make between $500-$1000 dollars a day. Which should be more than enough to mean she can quit and go to school or start a business or whatever after a few years tops. Try and find that kind of opportunity elsewhere on the job market for a high school graduate/dropout. One problem is that with prostitution the idea that a 'pimp' or a boss is taking the lions share of the profits rings as a bit more disgusting to most than when it happens in other businesses. | ||
BadBinky
Finland649 Posts
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Glowsphere
United States170 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: ... The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses. You base this upon what? You don't think that someone could rationally choose to take $300+ and hour to simulate sex, rather than slave away all day long to make a fraction of the amount? And what is it that makes customers "shitty, ignorant and uncaring"? | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:49 fishjie wrote: Interesting, sounds like the problem is due to brothels and lower end prostitutes, not escorts. A number of working girls in Nevada have negative stories about working conditions there as well. I'm thinking with full legalization everywhere, it will move toward independent girls working legally. There's been quite a few articles written by former escorts who were not coerced and made lots of money. There's one by Torontolife.com called "Secret life of a bay street hooker". At work so not gonna link. But basically, these indepdent/agency girls make a ton of money a year and can carve out a good life for themselves. They choose their clientele and do the background checks, rather than brothel system where girls may be trafficked and they have no say in who they see and what is allowed. The dominant thing here and in the Netherlands are brothels with the overwhelming majority of prostitutes being Eastern European girls that get here under very shady circumstances. These are two pretty big countries as far as evidence goes and there really isn't any case that would indicate that things turn out better anywhere else. This has nothing to do with feminist ideology but is simply a reality of a business in which the good that is being traded is a person's body. It's completely fair to say that based on what we know so far liberalization is a pretty horrible idea. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On June 23 2015 04:29 Nyxisto wrote: The dominant thing here and in the Netherlands are brothels with the overwhelming majority of prostitutes being Eastern European girls that get here under very shady circumstances. These are two pretty big countries as far as evidence goes and there really isn't any case that would indicate that things turn out better anywhere else. This has nothing to do with feminist ideology but is simply a reality of a business in which the good that is being traded is a person's body. It's completely fair to say that based on what we know so far liberalization is a pretty horrible idea. Seems like outlawing foreign sex workers would remedy that pretty easily. I imagine there are politicians with an interest in keeping them around (they are probably getting some form of kickback from org crime [at least that's how it would work here]) | ||
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