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I don't think that power levels are bullshit, but rather that the official power levels are bullshit (starting Namek).
I like to believe that Goku's natural power level at most 25k as he arrived on Namek, and that he could only fight the Ginyu squad they way he did due to the Kaioken. That explains why Ginyu was unable to mobilize a greater power than 23k while he was in Goku's (a little bit exhausted) body.
Even though apparently the doubling of powerlevel was a misstranslation, I'd say that Frieza's power level was around 0.53m/1.1m/2.5m/5.5m. His final form's natural powerlevel definitely not exceeding 6m.
When Goku recovered, he shouldn't have had more than 50k, which means he shouldn't have more than 600k fighting Frieza with a Kx10. But that is okay, since when Frieza was fighting casually, say at most 20% (1.1m), he was still so outmatched that Frieza wanted to fight without both hands to make it more interesting for him.
edit: I'm sure if you continue with these values you won't reach absurd values in the quintillion and such.
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On September 23 2013 06:39 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid. haha except that SSJ3 was = to buu where gohan smashed his face Pretty much
Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's unlocked potential.... which Goku even states that Human/Saiyan hybrids have more than pure Saiyans.
Mystic Gohan is the strongest unfused character from the canon manga
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol
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On September 23 2013 08:48 eshlow wrote:
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol lol, this just shows what a bullshit the buu saga actually was. in fact, it was one single fight against buu for like 100 episodes. probably the most ridiculous and drawn out fight in any anime or manga ever.
but i have one question: if i remember correctly, mystic gohan once turned ssj at the kai world, but never used his ssj form in his fight against buu. do we have any estimate how strong he would have been in ssj form?
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On September 23 2013 09:21 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:48 eshlow wrote:
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol lol, this just shows what a bullshit the buu saga actually was. in fact, it was one single fight against buu for like 100 episodes. probably the most ridiculous and drawn out fight in any anime or manga ever. but i have one question: if i remember correctly, mystic gohan once turned ssj at the kai world, but never used his ssj form in his fight against buu. do we have any estimate how strong he would have been in ssj form?
I didn't watch the anime... just read the manga.
It's ironic because after all of that it was just Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku at the end who were some of the weakest characters in that arc.
I do not recall Mystic Gohan going SSJ though it's been a while since I read it.
Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's potential. So if he went SSJ in Mystic form it wouldn't do anything because he can't power up... no potential left to unlock.
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On September 23 2013 05:14 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 05:09 Sbrubbles wrote:Really? That wasn't the number I was expecting. its the japanese one iirc. over 9000 is actually a translation error what the fuck
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It'd be fun to do fighting capabilities power too lol (knowingly impossible task)
For example trunks powered up more than vegeta, during the cell games, but cell explained that his speed went down and was therefore much weaker.
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On September 23 2013 08:31 CruelZeratul wrote: As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least. Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)? Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
Good catch. I messed that up on the Potara Fusion formula! Thanks!
Gohan loses his power because 1) his power is largely linked with his emotions, and 2) he stops training. I just go off the fact that Vegeta calls Gohan pitiful and never stops nagging the fact that he was stronger when he fought Cell. Gohan was a relative joke compared to the other 2 at the time though, but I guess that's what happens when you fall below the benchmark and everyone rises above it.
Vegeta blowing up a planet was in the anime (so technically non-cannon). He could probably do it though, if he aimed for the core. Off-core shots require more power level to blow up (minimum of 300 million according to the scale I threw up, 300 kilis for a definitive number).
On September 23 2013 08:33 Olinimmm wrote: Disagree with your base saiyan numbers for Buu Saga. 60 mil is way too low, no way they are half as strong as Frieza.
Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
On September 23 2013 08:39 JustPassingBy wrote:I don't think that power levels are bullshit, but rather that the official power levels are bullshit (starting Namek). I like to believe that Goku's natural power level at most 25k as he arrived on Namek, and that he could only fight the Ginyu squad they way he did due to the Kaioken. That explains why Ginyu was unable to mobilize a greater power than 23k while he was in Goku's (a little bit exhausted) body. Even though apparently the doubling of powerlevel was a misstranslation, I'd say that Frieza's power level was around 0.53m/1.1m/2.5m/5.5m. His final form's natural powerlevel definitely not exceeding 6m. When Goku recovered, he shouldn't have had more than 50k, which means he shouldn't have more than 600k fighting Frieza with a Kx10. But that is okay, since when Frieza was fighting casually, say at most 20% (1.1m), he was still so outmatched that Frieza wanted to fight without both hands to make it more interesting for him. edit: I'm sure if you continue with these values you won't reach absurd values in the quintillion and such. I'd probably hit a quadrillion still, but the fact is, the numbers I put up for anything during the Frieza Saga isn't disputable unless I list uncertainty or a note next to it. Frieza WAS at 120 million at full power, and Goku WAS at 3 million base with 150 million as a Super Saiyan. I'd LOVE for the numbers to end up smaller, but it won't happen unless I cheat the system some way (main reason being the Potara multiplication system and the fact that someone stronger than SS2 is a base level saiyan).
On September 23 2013 08:48 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 06:39 blade55555 wrote:On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid. haha except that SSJ3 was = to buu where gohan smashed his face Pretty much Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's unlocked potential.... which Goku even states that Human/Saiyan hybrids have more than pure Saiyans. Mystic Gohan is the strongest unfused character from the canon manga Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters: Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu Anyway... this takes me back, lol
Was gonna say, "No way in hell SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku!", then forgot I JUST did the fucking math, and SS Gotenks (pre and post HBTC/RoSaT) DESTROYS SS3 Goku, and it's not even close. The difference is so fucking huge, I could MEASURE Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and the various forms of Super Buu IN SS3 GOKUS! I was talking to my friend, and that's literally what I did! I measured those characters in SS3 Gokus! Because SS3 Goku in terms of power literally became THAT irrelevant! T.T
On September 23 2013 09:26 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 09:21 Black Gun wrote:On September 23 2013 08:48 eshlow wrote:
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol lol, this just shows what a bullshit the buu saga actually was. in fact, it was one single fight against buu for like 100 episodes. probably the most ridiculous and drawn out fight in any anime or manga ever. but i have one question: if i remember correctly, mystic gohan once turned ssj at the kai world, but never used his ssj form in his fight against buu. do we have any estimate how strong he would have been in ssj form? I didn't watch the anime... just read the manga. It's ironic because after all of that it was just Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku at the end who were some of the weakest characters in that arc. I do not recall Mystic Gohan going SSJ though it's been a while since I read it. Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's potential. So if he went SSJ in Mystic form it wouldn't do anything because he can't power up... no potential left to unlock.
Ultimate Gohan never went SS except in GT (NON-CANNON~~~~~~~~~). Going SS is basically the way to unlock the mystic potential. But there's no actual SS transformation.
And yeah, it is ironic that the last 2 fighters (one of which dominated another well known fighter in Vegeta) were so insignificant, you could measure the powers of other characters using the last 2 fighters. Seriously, they're like 1 dollar bills to the other guys. Got change for a $100 IN ONES?!
On September 23 2013 09:35 Wampaibist wrote: It'd be fun to do fighting capabilities power too lol (knowingly impossible task)
For example trunks powered up more than vegeta, during the cell games, but cell explained that his speed went down and was therefore much weaker.
This is actually very simple. Calculate the relative durabilities of each form, multiply it by damage capability, and multiply by damage efficiency. Obviously, USS would be the only thing with less than 1 for efficiency, since it's the only thing with an actual downside. ASS, USS, Fusion, SS3 Fusion, and SS4 fusion have durability issues, so you'd need a definitive margin of victory such that you will win before your advantage runs out (I'd say 80% should suffice, since Goku vs Frieza didn't actually last more than 5 minutes real time right? Didn't Frieza hit the core and say the planet would blow in 5 or 10 minutes?). I'd say USS probably has a .5 battle efficiency, at best. Otherwise, the power levels will basically tell you who wins the fight. As for regenerating, think of it this way: they need to use energy to regenerate, that is energy they are not using to damage their opponent. Except in the case of the androids, higher power level should mean that person will win unless they have durability or efficiency issues, in which case they need to win by a larger margin in order to actually win.
On September 23 2013 08:08 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid. Except Mystic Gohan tore apart Super buu and held his own against Super buu+sjj3 gotenks+Piccolo, and Goku was just marginally stronger in sjj3 than kid buu--- who was mentioned to be numerous times, weaker though more threatening [for indiscernible reasons] than super buu. This is why covering all the stats is pointless. Its fiction and as a result simply falls apart from plot holes, misstatements and forgetfulness. For example, Piccolo is referred to be as 'strong as a super sayan' during the android saga before he fused with the old fart. Yet, for him to have covered the distance between what he was, and some base largely untrained super sayan, is astronomical. It would mean that Piccolo for no reason whatsoever suddenly started training and gaining hundreds of thousands of ki daily, whereas Goku and the other Sayans, in base form, were drastically slower. Or else they'd of been triple his strength, something directly contradicted by evidence and stated fact.
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
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Why are all these characters fighting anyway?
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On September 23 2013 10:59 Maxd11 wrote: Why are all these characters fighting anyway? because thats what the show was all about. i mean... i vaguely remember that it initially wasnt all about fighting, but cant remember exactly. something with balls and dragons... who knows..
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I cannot believe this thread actually exists holy shit.
Dat nostalgia
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On September 23 2013 10:30 RyLai wrote:
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities). After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
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[B] Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. Also, Supreme Kai> Piccolo and yet Supreme kai was absolutely awestruck at the abilities of the Base saiyans 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, but he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal if not stronger than. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base. All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
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On September 23 2013 06:45 crazyweasel wrote:wow this thread . numbers really, even in the manga and anime POWER LEVEL becomes an obsolete concept (at the moment they stop using scouter, they don't keep track of it all they sense is khi/chi w/e u wanna call it)? number are so vague you could simply make a kind of ladder to translate their power level or Chi size. goku>buu>gohan>vegeta> and so on.
Problem with that is...
Ultimate Gohan>Buu= SS3 Gotenks>SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku>Fat Buu>SS2 Majin Vegeta=SS2 Goku.
Goku isn't the strongest. He becomes so insignificant that you can measure the strongest characters and their multiple forms in SS3 Gokus! (Except maybe Vegito... You might have to measure him in Buuhans if you don't use a C smaller than 1...)
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On September 23 2013 11:08 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 10:30 RyLai wrote:
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities). After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
On September 23 2013 11:29 Olinimmm wrote:Show nested quote +[B] Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base. All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million. 2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be. 3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form. 4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis?
Also, if you haven't noticed, Goku's favorite suppressed power level seems to be at 5,000. I think Billis would've been noticeably more shocked if Goku walked out to him showing off a combat ability of 5,000 (though I'd imagine Billis could probably see through at least some of it). If Trunks, in the millions range, could reduce his power level to 5, why can't Goku stick with his favorite number at 5,000? More than likely his base form is below 120 million.
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So, being a massive DBZ fan, I came into this topic ready to rage.
"If he lists Frieza and SSJ Goku as 12,000,000 and 15,000,000 I swear..."
Nope, good job! :D
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On September 23 2013 11:51 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 11:08 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 23 2013 10:30 RyLai wrote:
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities). After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous. 1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't! Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 11:29 Olinimmm wrote:[B] Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base. All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well. 1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million. 2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be. 3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form. 4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis? 1. Gravity levels are inconsistent to power levels. Also I believe they were in 150g but even if it was 300g that means it was just 3 times what Namek saga Goku(90,000) was doing. That means Trunks would only be at 270,000. Which means even his super saiyan would be weaker than Frieza, which is absolutely impossible. Also, Ssj trunks landed a punch on Ssj vegeta, if he was 2.5 mil then vegeta is like 25 times stronger than him by your numbers so how did that happen? 2. This is really just a cop out I mean seriously. Vegeta got his ass kicked by 18 as a super saiyan, if hes at 55 mil there is no way in hell he's gonna expect to beat her. I mean there's being arrogant and then there's being flat out delusional. Besides, Gohan invited Piccolo and didnt expect to lose to him either, are you saying both Vegeta and Gohan are that delusional? 3. I don't agree, looking at the fight Goku doesn't seem to be in any trouble in base form, and even after Babidi transports them to yakon's homeworld, Goku dodges his attack and kicks him in the face, Yakon looks stunned. If you're gonna claim that he was suppressed/holding back, I can just say the same thing about Base goku in BOG. 4.Ginyu didn't accurately guess Goku's power, he guessed 60k, and he only guessed that not because of sensing him, but by the fact that Goku owned the Ginyu Force. If Bills saw Base Gokus feats he would guess higher as well.
Honestly the whole Buu saga basically shoves in our face that Frieza is a joke, even to the dork that is Supreme Kai. So yeah other than that though even for how weak you have Base saiyans, the kids are still way too low. Gohan was impressed by Goten's power and was worried that he might be surpassed. SSj trunks landed a hit on vegeta.
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On September 23 2013 08:08 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid. Except Mystic Gohan tore apart Super buu and held his own against Super buu+sjj3 gotenks+Piccolo, and Goku was just marginally stronger in sjj3 than kid buu--- who was mentioned to be numerous times, weaker though more threatening [for indiscernible reasons] than super buu. Kid Buu is more threatening than Super Buu because he's interested in nothing but destroying everything in existance. Super Buu talks to people, plays with them, seeks to absorb others in order to boost his power over simply killing them because he desires more strength than he already possesses. Kid Buu, on the other hand? The moment he completes his transformation, he destroys the planet that he stands on with no warning. He doesn't sit around chatting, he doesn't try to fight his foes head-on or absorb their powers, he just goes straight for totally annihilating everything in sight by the most brutally efficient method possible.
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It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
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This thread is so fucking epic, what the fuck. I'm imagining the op as having a pulsating golden aura, with matching saiyan hair.
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On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta? By the time they were revived Goku was already in the middle of the fight, and Kibito Kai ran out of energy to use instant transmission. Vegeta also might not have wanted to risk those incompetents getting absorbed again.
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