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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 09 2015 00:50 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 00:35 zlefin wrote: Sounds like you need to import some non-corrupt people. Any allies with a good record you could import talent from? Uhm.... I am afraid there are no countries that have available non-corrupt people to export. Pretty much. Those with power in any country would do, and to the extent that they could have done, what those in Russia did if the opportunity presented itself. The question now is how to deal with such a situation to best benefit the country after the fact.
A large-scale changing hands of money/resources is always a corrupt affair. The history of every country in the world is a testament to that fact.
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I'd say there are good people, but they may not be on your allies list.
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Ok, now I understand LegalLord. I broadly agree, military involvement in Ukraine is clearly something Putin is comfortable with, especially as he personally unveiled the fact that Crimea was taken with Russian troops. But that's not what the article said, it suggested that the problem was with the organisation of Soldiers' Mothers in Russia, which the Kremlin might think can gather enough anti-war sentiment. That's why one of their leaders was remarkably accused of treason (See the article). This is surprising for two reasons, being accused of treason is rare for even people like Nemtsov, Navalny, Khodorkovsky and others. Secondly, no-one knew the name `Davydova' before the treason charges. This was clearly a local and Russian politics centered act.
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On March 09 2015 00:07 LegalLord wrote: I don't buy it. The common sentiment is that Russia's military is for the defense of the country from foreign security threats, not to take more land from others.
Funny thing to say literally one year after Russia annexed Crimea.
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On March 09 2015 01:36 Ghanburighan wrote:Ok, now I understand LegalLord. I broadly agree, military involvement in Ukraine is clearly something Putin is comfortable with, especially as he personally unveiled the fact that Crimea was taken with Russian troops. But that's not what the article said, it suggested that the problem was with the organisation of Soldiers' Mothers in Russia, which the Kremlin might think can gather enough anti-war sentiment. That's why one of their leaders was remarkably accused of treason ( See the article). This is surprising for two reasons, being accused of treason is rare for even people like Nemtsov, Navalny, Khodorkovsky and others. Secondly, no-one knew the name `Davydova' before the treason charges. This was clearly a local and Russian politics centered act.
Union of the Committees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia
The organization was founded in 1989. Before 1998, it was known as the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia. It is a member of the human rights organization Human Rights House.[1] Among the activities the organization is involved in is educating Russian civil society on the rule of law in relation to service in the military, as well as informing society about what the armed forces should look like in a democratic society.
Wait, so its an NGO? B-b-but why would a NGO make up lies?
I'm sure looking at NED's Russian website could give us some clues!
Kostroma Regional Public Organization "Soldiers' Mothers Committee" - $26,201 Pskov Regional Public Organization "Council of Soldiers' Mothers" - $25,395 St. Petersburg Regional Public Human Rights Organization "Soldiers' Mothers of St. Petersburg" - $84,966
It's like receiving money directly from state department and making up lies about Russia is somehow connected.
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It's being reported that Dadaev took responsibility for the crime. http://ria.ru/incidents/20150308/1051510378.html
He is not actually a police officer, though he is employed under "MVD" (Ministry of Internal Affairs), but rather a member of the "North" battalion created by Kadyrov, which is often reffered by as "Kadyrovcy" (Kadyrov's people).
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On March 09 2015 02:34 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 01:36 Ghanburighan wrote:Ok, now I understand LegalLord. I broadly agree, military involvement in Ukraine is clearly something Putin is comfortable with, especially as he personally unveiled the fact that Crimea was taken with Russian troops. But that's not what the article said, it suggested that the problem was with the organisation of Soldiers' Mothers in Russia, which the Kremlin might think can gather enough anti-war sentiment. That's why one of their leaders was remarkably accused of treason ( See the article). This is surprising for two reasons, being accused of treason is rare for even people like Nemtsov, Navalny, Khodorkovsky and others. Secondly, no-one knew the name `Davydova' before the treason charges. This was clearly a local and Russian politics centered act. Union of the Committees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia Show nested quote +The organization was founded in 1989. Before 1998, it was known as the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia. It is a member of the human rights organization Human Rights House.[1] Among the activities the organization is involved in is educating Russian civil society on the rule of law in relation to service in the military, as well as informing society about what the armed forces should look like in a democratic society. Wait, so its an NGO? B-b-but why would a NGO make up lies? I'm sure looking at NED's Russian website could give us some clues! Kostroma Regional Public Organization "Soldiers' Mothers Committee" - $26,201Pskov Regional Public Organization "Council of Soldiers' Mothers" - $25,395St. Petersburg Regional Public Human Rights Organization "Soldiers' Mothers of St. Petersburg" - $84,966It's like receiving money directly from state department and making up lies about Russia is somehow connected. Woa! I found 22 other "NGO's/Pawns of Western Imperialism!" How can Russia just allow these foriegn agent provocateurs to remain unchecked! Especially the gay rights groups! I wonder how many other of the 277,000 NGOs in Russia are Imperialists as well! /sarcasm
I guess I am far less intelligent than I thought, because I am not seeing the conspiracy here. Where is the hard hitting investigative documents you found linking all this, all I could see was 2 links to websites stating an organization received X amount of money.
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Canada10919 Posts
On March 08 2015 22:57 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2015 22:36 Cheerio wrote: Didn't think nunez would fall so low. Kind of showing what kind of people we are dealing with here. Even russian media cancelled anti-Nemtsov propaganda after his death. Posting an article the deceased had written is a really despicable act. Really brought the quality of the thread down from the amazing heights achieved with borderline schizophrenic 'the government wants to kill us' conspiracy theories and russophobic rants. Logic and rational thought are the final stage of commie whataboutism after all. It's not that so much as:
On March 08 2015 17:26 Ghanburighan wrote: It would be nice to state that this article was written in 2000. How the times have changed...
It makes little sense to say "here's a little glimpse into what actually was:" and then quote an article that Nemtsov wrote 15 years ago as though nothing had changed in the intervening years. Nemtsov might be a little forgiven for thinking highly of Putin the early years. I just finished teaching a History 12 class and noted the publishing year of the text book as it waxed eloquently on the upward trajectory with Putin coming in. Democratization and freedom of the press is on the rise. Publishing year: early 2000's before Putin started swapping in and out of Presidential and Prime-Minister positions to stay in power.
An early assessment of one's career can often be wrong- Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize before he started his drone warfare. Various political leaders have received Time's Person of the Year, which in retrospect seems like a cruel joke in very poor taste. If someone remains in power, one is allowed to evaluate their entire body of work. And one is allowed to reassess those new actions. To present an old assessment as "a glimpse of what actually was" without any commentary as to Putin's policies since then and Nemtsov's ongoing assessment of said policies seems of limited value at best if not downright misleading.
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Putin gets it. Kill a political opponent, blame the chechens, everything is great. Textbook dictator move. Молодец !
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On March 08 2015 23:40 DonKey_ wrote: Seems a bit unnecessary to revive Nemtsov's "corruption" history, when it doesn't seem to have any connection to his death. Unless of course the goal is ad hominem. Have you met Nunez before? That completely was the goal. Hes one of those guys who assume that America is so evil that anyone opposed to them must be the good guy.
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It looks like the authorities are taking the Charlie Hebdo/Chechnya story as the primary one, with a purported confession to back it up. This is not yet official, though. Interpreter Magazine is doubtful of the story, but has listed everything Nemtsov said on Charlie Hebdo in a long article. Here's an excerpt.
RosBalt reported late March 8 that a source close to the investigation in the murder of opposition leader Boris Nemtsov says Zaur Dadayev, former deputy commander of the Sever Battalion in the Interior Ministry forces of Chechnya, has "admitted that he killed Nemtsov due to his negative statements about Muslims."
He claimed Nemtsov had "repeatedly" made negative statements about Musims and religion. ...
The claim seems contrived, as the issue of Islam was not one that was central for Nemtsov, who was focused on Russian government corruption, such as in the Sochi Olympics, the economic crisis, the oil and gas industry, and the war in Ukraine. At best it seems tenuously linked to a number of blog posts made by Nemtsov in January on his Facebook page after the murder of 12 Charlie Hebdo journalists in Paris by Islamist terrorists, and then a post on Ekho Moskvy.
Most of the posts concerned not Islam, but the right of a lone picketer to demonstration with a "Je Suis Charlie" sign near the Kremlin.
Did the Chechen murder suspect Dadayev read Facebook or Ekho Moskvy? Did he make a special effort to follow what Nemtsov said nearly two months before his murder, even though there were others far more visible and controversial on this topic?
He or other suspects might have more readily noticed Nemtsov's post on Ekho Moskvy, but it was overshadowed by the more publicized action of Ekho's publication of Charlie Hebdo's cartoons that could be deemed offensive to Christians and Jews as well as Muslims. (The page shows 529 comments and only 66 views, possibly because it was reset. The Russian censor did not take any action against Ekho over the page of cartoons or Nemtsov's post, both of which remain in view.)
Read the rest here.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
I wouldn't take a confession too seriously - obviously they can lie to hide their tracks. Though if that's the case, it's interesting that they even would lie; if they were hired killers, I see no reason why they would cover their employers after getting caught.
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On March 09 2015 23:45 LegalLord wrote: I wouldn't take a confession too seriously - obviously they can lie to hide their tracks. Though if that's the case, it's interesting that they even would lie; if they were hired killers, I see no reason why they would cover their employers after getting caught.
Without having any evidence for this kind of speculation, my thoughts head towards the man called Kadyrov who has a record of threatening not only people themselves but also their families (LINK). I might consider confessing to murder (knowing I'd be taken care of as best they can in prison) if I knew my family won't get burned to death thanks to it.
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On March 09 2015 23:45 LegalLord wrote: I wouldn't take a confession too seriously - obviously they can lie to hide their tracks. Though if that's the case, it's interesting that they even would lie; if they were hired killers, I see no reason why they would cover their employers after getting caught. Well if your employers catch you, you might.
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confessions in general are pretty unreliable, there's been a lot of findings and research on that. So I'm gonna focus on what the other evidence is.
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Dutch nationals were killed at the hands of pro-Russian rebels, their guilt confirmed by several external investigations and yet the downing of MH17 has been all but forgotten as the Russian government continues to act with impunity in Ukraine. To think the assassination of a Russian civilian, investigated internally by Russian officials, could possibly bring forth justice is nothing short of a fantasy.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:47 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 23:45 LegalLord wrote: I wouldn't take a confession too seriously - obviously they can lie to hide their tracks. Though if that's the case, it's interesting that they even would lie; if they were hired killers, I see no reason why they would cover their employers after getting caught. Well if your employers catch you, you might. If the FSB is clever enough (and they are), no one has to know. More likely than not, this story was released with the knowledge that it is almost certainly a false reason.
On March 10 2015 00:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 23:45 LegalLord wrote: I wouldn't take a confession too seriously - obviously they can lie to hide their tracks. Though if that's the case, it's interesting that they even would lie; if they were hired killers, I see no reason why they would cover their employers after getting caught. Without having any evidence for this kind of speculation, my thoughts head towards the man called Kadyrov who has a record of threatening not only people themselves but also their families ( LINK). I might consider confessing to murder (knowing I'd be taken care of as best they can in prison) if I knew my family won't get burned to death thanks to it. I think "warlord" would be a good word to describe Kadyrov. Not exactly an upstanding figure, but he is kept around because he keeps the peace in Chechnya. High-profile murder would end him pretty quickly and he knows that. The motivation just isn't there.
On March 10 2015 01:14 always_winter wrote: Dutch nationals were killed at the hands of pro-Russian rebels, their guilt confirmed by several external investigations and yet the downing of MH17 has been all but forgotten as the Russian government continues to act with impunity in Ukraine. To think the assassination of a Russian civilian, investigated internally by Russian officials, could possibly bring forth justice is nothing short of a fantasy. No, you've got it all wrong. The truth is that 30,000 martians came to Earth and landed in Donetsk, disguised as Russians disguised as pro-Russian rebels, and they are the ones leading the rebellion. This has been confirmed by several external investigations (the proof of which I will not provide) but has been entirely forgotten by the mainstream media.
+ Show Spoiler +In other words, let's not just make statements without having proof for them for the sake of country bashing.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
Were this the MH17 thread, I would go into more detail. Since that topic is more of an aside, I suggest you take the following advice from your own sources:
Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said it was still too early to assign blame: "We need to be careful not to draw conclusions too quickly," he told journalists. "Step-by-step, the experts are working to reach irrefutable conclusions."
On March 10 2015 02:45 silynxer wrote: Uhm LegalLord there are plenty of sources for Russian involvement it's just that you choose to not believe them or see them as propaganda (for example the Bellingcat reports or even the Vice stuff). Furthermore, it's just a bit silly to believe that a ragtag group of rebels would hold themselves against the Ukrainian army and would be able to use artillery and heavy weaponry for a prolonged time. Then there is the timeline where the rebels were pushed back quite fast by the Ukrainian army and then suddenly and magically were able to go on the offensive.
But it's probably pointless to argue this with you and that's actually alright by me. What I am interested in, however, is what would your perspective be if Russia was sending troups and weapons?! That is a significant derail. While I do have answers for all of these points, the Ukraine crisis has little to nothing to do with Boris Nemtsov's death and so this is not the place for that discussion. I'd rather not see yet another thread closed because it became a Ukraine Crisis flame war.
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Uhm LegalLord there are plenty of sources for Russian involvement it's just that you choose to not believe them or see them as propaganda (for example the Bellingcat reports or even the Vice stuff). Furthermore, it's just a bit silly to believe that a ragtag group of rebels would hold themselves against the Ukrainian army and would be able to use artillery and heavy weaponry for a prolonged time. Then there is the timeline where the rebels were pushed back quite fast by the Ukrainian army and then suddenly and magically were able to go on the offensive.
But it's probably pointless to argue this with you and that's actually alright by me. What I am interested in, however, is what would your perspective be if Russia was sending troups and weapons?!
[EDIT]: To your answer above: Like I said what I want to know is what you would think if it turns out that Russia is sending regular troups to fight in Ukraine. This is relevant to Boris Nemtsovs death. You said:
I don't buy it. The common sentiment is that Russia's military is for the defense of the country from foreign security threats, not to take more land from others. This would change nothing. I think he was killed for something that had very little to do with Ukraine. Now if Russian troups are fighting in Ukraine and Boris Nemtsov was working on exposing that within Russia that would be highly relevant exactly because many Russians don't believe this at the moment (you can see how challenging that belief might be a problem in that situation).
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