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Russian Federation40169 Posts
On March 01 2015 23:30 Ghanburighan wrote: Today's rally is apparently huge:
For reference, the rally he refers to had 25-50k people in it. 53-56k according to official numbers.
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All I know is, I have watched Russia Today and seen how anti-west (really just anti-US) it can be, and that sometimes it is so obvious and extreme, that I am left genuinely shocked; especially with the stories about Ukraine being composed entirely of nazis killing Russian speaking people. I am even more worried after now reading that most people in Russia simply don't have access to any other sources of news, or that they can't read any foreign languages. I think this is a wake up call to how damaging propaganda can be in its most extreme forms; we assumed this was just an isolated case in North Korea and China, but it started up so easily in Russia...and now it is the norm there.
What is the future of Russia going to be like? Putin looks like he's going to be a dictator for the rest of his life because he controls all the media, and therefore the minds of mostly all Russian citizens. This is why his approval ratings are at 90% in spite of a crumbling economy. If North Korea is any indication there won't ever be a breaking point. People will believe you are the savior even if your economy is non-existent and your technology is from the 50s while people are starving around you.
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On March 02 2015 00:59 radscorpion9 wrote: All I know is, I have watched Russia Today and seen how anti-west (really just anti-US) it can be, and that sometimes it is so obvious and extreme, that I am left genuinely shocked; especially with the stories about Ukraine being composed entirely of nazis killing Russian speaking people. I am even more worried after now reading that most people in Russia simply don't have access to any other sources of news, or that they can't read any foreign languages. I think this is a wake up call to how damaging propaganda can be in its most extreme forms; we assumed this was just an isolated case in North Korea and China, but it started up so easily in Russia...and now it is the norm there.
What is the future of Russia going to be like? Putin looks like he's going to be a dictator for the rest of his life because he controls all the media, and therefore the minds of mostly all Russian citizens. This is why his approval ratings are at 90% in spite of a crumbling economy. If North Korea is any indication there won't ever be a breaking point. People will believe you are the savior even if your economy is non-existent and your technology is from the 50s while people are starving around you.
You think it just started in Russia? Funny, it's never really stopped since communism.
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On March 01 2015 22:48 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 15:28 Leporello wrote:On March 01 2015 08:02 Ghanburighan wrote:Some people in the thread have already floated the idea that Putin probably didn't order the killing, but has created the conditions that led to it. There's a Guardian piece considering the same idea: At a recent launch of the Anti-Maidan movement in Russia, the leader of a biker gang, known as “the Surgeon”, who has been photographed many times with Putin, said foreign powers were sharpening their teeth to attack Russia. The Anti-Maidan movement would ensure that they could not do so, with violence if necessary. Another name for the movement was “death to faggots”, said the Surgeon. Nemtsov frequently appeared on lists of “traitors” published online by extremist groups, and given that many radical Russian nationalists have been fighting a war in east Ukraine for the past six months, there have long been fears that the bloodshed could at some point move to the streets of Moscow. The well-organised hit, in one of the most closely watched parts of Moscow, of a man who was undoubtedly under state surveillance just two days before a major opposition march, does not smack of an amateur job. Assuming a jealous lover or angry fellow liberal would not be able to organise a drive-by shooting in the shadows of the Kremlin towers, the remaining options are disturbing. If, as Peskov says, it was senseless for the Kremlin to kill someone who posed very little threat, that leaves another option that is perhaps even more terrifying: that the campaign of hate that has erupted over the past year is spiralling out of the control of those who manufactured it. “Actually it would be in some way less worrying if Putin had ordered Nemtsov’s killing,” wrote Ksenia Sobchak, a socialite turned journalist and opposition activist. “It would be an awful system, but at least a system, a manageable system. But I feel, unfortunately, this is not the case. There is no Putin who gave a command to kill. But there is a Putin who has built an appalling terminator, and he has lost control of it.”Read the rest hereEdit: P.S. Cheerio, yeah, that sounds about right. I've spoken to enough Moscovians to know that this is probably true, and Ksenia Sobchak is absolutely right that this is scarier than a simple political-assassination. It is crazy nationalism. A lot of Moscovians aren't going to be bothered by this assassination one bit. They accept their democracy isn't real, but don't care. Putin is their leader, and they respect that more than anything. You can be speaking to a Moscovian who seems as gentle and not-a-war-monger as can be, and be shocked by the things that come out of their mouth. Anti-semitism, crazy-level nationalism, crazy ethnic-pride, all based on skewed history, coming from someone who would otherwise be seen by most as a nice, congenial person. The world we live in, we take for granted based on the information we're given. We don't see it, we don't know it, we have to accept that some things are what we're told. Russia, particularly Moscow, lives in a somewhat different world than the "West" does. They have a different history, different approach to ethnicity. It's not North Korea-level. But it's bad enough that I can see this assassination being a citizen-led incident.Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords comes to mind. From what I know, Moscow people are more well educated and liberal-minded than the rest of Russia. There were big local elections last September and from what I heard not a single influential opposition candidate was allowed to participate. They just don't want to take any risks since the sympathies can turn out to be very wrong for the government. I think you should expect even more nationalism from somebody who is Russian, but not from Moscow.
Yeah, I was speaking from my own experience on that, which is Moscow-centered. Researching this more, I see it is surprisingly a well-spread problem.
These sanctions seem so critical to me the more I read about Russia. There is a serious media-bubble there that needs to be broken, and I hope sanctions is the way to break it. I can't think of any other way.
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On March 01 2015 22:59 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 17:45 Jetaap wrote: At this point I'm starting to think that the biggest threat for Europe is not ISIS, but Russia and putin going absolutely crazy ... you better believe all those west media rumors. the western powers are just as much of a thread to the world as russia is. So, Europeans, is it ISIS > Russia = The West > Other threats Russia > ISIS ? West
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On February 28 2015 19:51 Random() wrote: I just love how all western media are like "Putin critic shot", even BBC who are usually reasonable and indeed started the story with a more neutral headline but then changed it. The man was known to be reckless and pig-headed, he was receiving death threats all his life because of his business interests, there are tons of reasons why someone could have want him dead, but no, it's obvious that it was Putin who had him shot because... we don't like him much right now.
I'm not a fan of Putin and the way he runs the country, but man, this anti Russian propaganda is so disgusting at times. its called western propaganda....
its funny how you see people demonizing putin and russia. calling it not a democracy. i mean do you think YOU live in a democracy? in france, usa or here in gemrany? dont make me fucking laugh. u can vote whoever you want in any country. things never change they wont. cause politics are a circus show put on to make you believe our politicians dictAte how things are going instead of financial and economic companies.wake the fuck up. look at all the laws after 9/11, this is democracy? look at guantanamo! is this democracy? democracy where the majority of people gets poorer and poorer and 1% gets richer and richer? wasnt democracy about the majority??? you fucking backseat talk about other countries and political leaders who do terrible shit like putin. while living in your own fake reality of "democracy", while all the other goverments do the same shit elsewhere. oh you didnt hear about that? well time to switch from fox news to a real source of information. we are demonized in russia the same way putin and russia is demonized here. roflmao americans criticizing goverments to be not democratic. stop throwing stones in your rotten glashouse :D
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 02 2015 06:44 MotherOfRunes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 19:51 Random() wrote: I just love how all western media are like "Putin critic shot", even BBC who are usually reasonable and indeed started the story with a more neutral headline but then changed it. The man was known to be reckless and pig-headed, he was receiving death threats all his life because of his business interests, there are tons of reasons why someone could have want him dead, but no, it's obvious that it was Putin who had him shot because... we don't like him much right now.
I'm not a fan of Putin and the way he runs the country, but man, this anti Russian propaganda is so disgusting at times. its called western propaganda.... its funny how you see people demonizing putin and russia. calling it not a democracy. i mean do you think YOU live in a democracy? in france, usa or here in gemrany? dont make me fucking laugh. u can vote whoever you want in any country. things never change they wont. cause politics are a circus show put on to make you believe our politicians dictAte how things are going instead of financial and economic companies.wake the fuck up. look at all the laws after 9/11, this is democracy? look at guantanamo! is this democracy? democracy where the majority of people gets poorer and poorer and 1% gets richer and richer? wasnt democracy about the majority??? you fucking backseat talk about other countries and political leaders who do terrible shit like putin. while living in your own fake reality of "democracy", while all the other goverments do the same shit elsewhere. oh you didnt hear about that? well time to switch from fox news to a real source of information. we are demonized in russia the same way putin and russia is demonized here. roflmao americans criticizing goverments to be not democratic. stop throwing stones in your rotten glashouse :D I wonder how many variations of this same post I've read in the past fifteen years
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The frequency of voting is not what actually separates democracies and dictatorships. The point is that I can actually criticize the government here without getting served polonium tea or getting shot in the back. There is no government driven propaganda and a civil class and discourse of ideas actually do exist.
And this is what's different in Russia. Liberals are being decried as traitors, a civil class is pretty non existent. Most dissidents are either artists or journalists. What should be mainstream and completely normal has become some kind of underground phenomenon in Russia.
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On March 02 2015 05:57 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2015 22:48 Cheerio wrote:On March 01 2015 15:28 Leporello wrote:On March 01 2015 08:02 Ghanburighan wrote:Some people in the thread have already floated the idea that Putin probably didn't order the killing, but has created the conditions that led to it. There's a Guardian piece considering the same idea: At a recent launch of the Anti-Maidan movement in Russia, the leader of a biker gang, known as “the Surgeon”, who has been photographed many times with Putin, said foreign powers were sharpening their teeth to attack Russia. The Anti-Maidan movement would ensure that they could not do so, with violence if necessary. Another name for the movement was “death to faggots”, said the Surgeon. Nemtsov frequently appeared on lists of “traitors” published online by extremist groups, and given that many radical Russian nationalists have been fighting a war in east Ukraine for the past six months, there have long been fears that the bloodshed could at some point move to the streets of Moscow. The well-organised hit, in one of the most closely watched parts of Moscow, of a man who was undoubtedly under state surveillance just two days before a major opposition march, does not smack of an amateur job. Assuming a jealous lover or angry fellow liberal would not be able to organise a drive-by shooting in the shadows of the Kremlin towers, the remaining options are disturbing. If, as Peskov says, it was senseless for the Kremlin to kill someone who posed very little threat, that leaves another option that is perhaps even more terrifying: that the campaign of hate that has erupted over the past year is spiralling out of the control of those who manufactured it. “Actually it would be in some way less worrying if Putin had ordered Nemtsov’s killing,” wrote Ksenia Sobchak, a socialite turned journalist and opposition activist. “It would be an awful system, but at least a system, a manageable system. But I feel, unfortunately, this is not the case. There is no Putin who gave a command to kill. But there is a Putin who has built an appalling terminator, and he has lost control of it.”Read the rest hereEdit: P.S. Cheerio, yeah, that sounds about right. I've spoken to enough Moscovians to know that this is probably true, and Ksenia Sobchak is absolutely right that this is scarier than a simple political-assassination. It is crazy nationalism. A lot of Moscovians aren't going to be bothered by this assassination one bit. They accept their democracy isn't real, but don't care. Putin is their leader, and they respect that more than anything. You can be speaking to a Moscovian who seems as gentle and not-a-war-monger as can be, and be shocked by the things that come out of their mouth. Anti-semitism, crazy-level nationalism, crazy ethnic-pride, all based on skewed history, coming from someone who would otherwise be seen by most as a nice, congenial person. The world we live in, we take for granted based on the information we're given. We don't see it, we don't know it, we have to accept that some things are what we're told. Russia, particularly Moscow, lives in a somewhat different world than the "West" does. They have a different history, different approach to ethnicity. It's not North Korea-level. But it's bad enough that I can see this assassination being a citizen-led incident.Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords comes to mind. From what I know, Moscow people are more well educated and liberal-minded than the rest of Russia. There were big local elections last September and from what I heard not a single influential opposition candidate was allowed to participate. They just don't want to take any risks since the sympathies can turn out to be very wrong for the government. I think you should expect even more nationalism from somebody who is Russian, but not from Moscow. Yeah, I was speaking from my own experience on that, which is Moscow-centered. Researching this more, I see it is surprisingly a well-spread problem. These sanctions seem so critical to me the more I read about Russia. There is a serious media-bubble there that needs to be broken, and I hope sanctions is the way to break it. I can't think of any other way.
Get countries around Russia to start broadcasting their normal content in Russian. Finish, Chinese... borders and by satellite. Force a dialogue by external propaganda in the country. Would probably not turn out well though.
If they hadn't attacked Ukraine things would slowly have progressed towards Democracy through the normal situation of exporting values with goods.
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On March 02 2015 00:59 radscorpion9 wrote: I think this is a wake up call to how damaging propaganda can be in its most extreme forms; we assumed this was just an isolated case in North Korea and China, but it started up so easily in Russia...and now it is the norm there. The US is a direct neighbor. One would assume you would know by now how effective propaganda is.
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Canada10904 Posts
On March 02 2015 07:03 Nyxisto wrote: The frequency of voting is not what actually separates democracies and dictatorships. The point is that I can actually criticize the government here without getting served polonium tea or getting shot in the back. There is no government driven propaganda and a civil class and discourse of ideas actually do exist.
And this is what's different in Russia. Liberals are being decried as traitors, a civil class is pretty non existent. Most dissidents are either artists or journalists. What should be mainstream and completely normal has become some kind of underground phenomenon in Russia. ^ Pretty much. There are a lot of problems in our respective governments, but at least in Canada Michael Wilson (former Finance Minister of a very unpopular government) is not lying dead in the streets, nor are Thomas Mulcair and Justin Trudeau (leaders of opposition parties) locked up in prison. The problems are simply on a different level.
Ugh
The Guardian's comment section has been over-run with conspiracies- such as that the protestors were well prepared in advance- thus I suppose knowing that Nemstov was going to die in advance. That Nemstov was likely killed by foreigners- Nemstov T-Shirts worn by a Ukranian MP means- " There is only one reason any of them would be in Moscow. Nemtsov was set up and sacrificed, this was planed, and Putin is the real target, and the media is the artillery." Or maybe US did it in the hopes of jump starting a Moscow Spring.
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Guys, guys, don't you know we live in hyperreality now? We fight with false flag attacks, propaganda, and currency wars? I'd pin this on the CIA before I'd pin it on Putin - very stupid thing for Putin to do and he's no idiot. I believe Putin would take out a hit on this guy like I believe Assad would use chemical weapons. As far as this "russian media bubble.." Both of our societies are utterly dominated by propaganda - the NYT is worse than Pravda.
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On March 02 2015 07:10 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2015 05:57 Leporello wrote:On March 01 2015 22:48 Cheerio wrote:On March 01 2015 15:28 Leporello wrote:On March 01 2015 08:02 Ghanburighan wrote:Some people in the thread have already floated the idea that Putin probably didn't order the killing, but has created the conditions that led to it. There's a Guardian piece considering the same idea: At a recent launch of the Anti-Maidan movement in Russia, the leader of a biker gang, known as “the Surgeon”, who has been photographed many times with Putin, said foreign powers were sharpening their teeth to attack Russia. The Anti-Maidan movement would ensure that they could not do so, with violence if necessary. Another name for the movement was “death to faggots”, said the Surgeon. Nemtsov frequently appeared on lists of “traitors” published online by extremist groups, and given that many radical Russian nationalists have been fighting a war in east Ukraine for the past six months, there have long been fears that the bloodshed could at some point move to the streets of Moscow. The well-organised hit, in one of the most closely watched parts of Moscow, of a man who was undoubtedly under state surveillance just two days before a major opposition march, does not smack of an amateur job. Assuming a jealous lover or angry fellow liberal would not be able to organise a drive-by shooting in the shadows of the Kremlin towers, the remaining options are disturbing. If, as Peskov says, it was senseless for the Kremlin to kill someone who posed very little threat, that leaves another option that is perhaps even more terrifying: that the campaign of hate that has erupted over the past year is spiralling out of the control of those who manufactured it. “Actually it would be in some way less worrying if Putin had ordered Nemtsov’s killing,” wrote Ksenia Sobchak, a socialite turned journalist and opposition activist. “It would be an awful system, but at least a system, a manageable system. But I feel, unfortunately, this is not the case. There is no Putin who gave a command to kill. But there is a Putin who has built an appalling terminator, and he has lost control of it.”Read the rest hereEdit: P.S. Cheerio, yeah, that sounds about right. I've spoken to enough Moscovians to know that this is probably true, and Ksenia Sobchak is absolutely right that this is scarier than a simple political-assassination. It is crazy nationalism. A lot of Moscovians aren't going to be bothered by this assassination one bit. They accept their democracy isn't real, but don't care. Putin is their leader, and they respect that more than anything. You can be speaking to a Moscovian who seems as gentle and not-a-war-monger as can be, and be shocked by the things that come out of their mouth. Anti-semitism, crazy-level nationalism, crazy ethnic-pride, all based on skewed history, coming from someone who would otherwise be seen by most as a nice, congenial person. The world we live in, we take for granted based on the information we're given. We don't see it, we don't know it, we have to accept that some things are what we're told. Russia, particularly Moscow, lives in a somewhat different world than the "West" does. They have a different history, different approach to ethnicity. It's not North Korea-level. But it's bad enough that I can see this assassination being a citizen-led incident.Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords comes to mind. From what I know, Moscow people are more well educated and liberal-minded than the rest of Russia. There were big local elections last September and from what I heard not a single influential opposition candidate was allowed to participate. They just don't want to take any risks since the sympathies can turn out to be very wrong for the government. I think you should expect even more nationalism from somebody who is Russian, but not from Moscow. Yeah, I was speaking from my own experience on that, which is Moscow-centered. Researching this more, I see it is surprisingly a well-spread problem. These sanctions seem so critical to me the more I read about Russia. There is a serious media-bubble there that needs to be broken, and I hope sanctions is the way to break it. I can't think of any other way. If they hadn't attacked Ukraine things would slowly have progressed towards Democracy through the normal situation of exporting values with goods.
I don't think so. Last time Russia moved towards democracy was during Medvedev's presidency. And it ended with pretty big lasting civil protests on the governments hands. One thing Putin took from that: you can't give people freedom by pieces, they'll still be unhappy, or rather even more unhappy than if you gave them nothing. He also understood that there is a large portion of the population that he can't win over (i.e. the liberal-minded one), so he should not even try and rather focus on the ones that are responding more readily to his initiatives. The reintroduction of the image of the external enemy, the insistance on the Russia's unique way, criticizing Western countries for the lack of democracy and implying they are in deep crysis that might ruin them soon, integration of the church into the state matters and using it in pro-government propaganda - it all didn't start with the events in Ukraine, but much earlier. Events in Ukraine just intensified the processes and made them exposed to the western press attention.
On March 02 2015 07:24 bookwyrm wrote: Guys, guys, don't you know we live in hyperreality now? We fight with false flag attacks, propaganda, and currency wars? I'd pin this on the CIA before I'd pin it on Putin - very stupid thing for Putin to do and he's no idiot. I believe Putin would take out a hit on this guy like I believe Assad would use chemical weapons. As far as this "russian media bubble.." Both of our societies are utterly dominated by propaganda - the NYT is worse than Pravda.
reading posts like these kind of proves it's not the lack of the access to information that is the main problem, some people just see what they want to see. And if propaganda is giving people that, you can't fight it, you just need to make it stop.
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I feel so sad for Putin. He is probably completely innocent (and should be presumed innocent) but no one is going to give him a break. It is as if people think Putin has to worry about an opposition politician without realizing that if he does have to worry about an opposition politician then he isn't a tyrant, and if he is a tyrant than why would he have this guy killed.
Buck up Putin, don't let the downers get you down!
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Yeah, he must be feeling really bad. Poor Putin. I will send him a card to cheer him up.
"He has nothing to gain" can be true for a person that is actually sane. At this point I'm not so sure that Putin falls into that category. ISIS+Erdogan from the south, a wacko with nuclear weapons from the north. We, Europeans, live in great times.
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Is it a fact pretty much that Russia is moving back towards communism? Really haven't been following much recently, but that seems to be something i hear pretty often
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On March 02 2015 09:34 arb wrote: Is it a fact pretty much that Russia is moving back towards communism? Really haven't been following much recently, but that seems to be something i hear pretty often what? how is russia moving to communism?
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I think it's more 19th century tsarism than communism, really. A lot of change in Russia is fuelled by orthodoxy in contrast to how "degenerated" the West is. That's a word you hear a lot today from a lot of Russians. It might be way more dangerous than the Cold War I guess, because it's more "real". The whole cold war was almost comical and was pretty much just a dick measuring context between the US and Russia while the current conflicts over the last two decades were much more territorial.
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On March 02 2015 09:42 Nyxisto wrote: I think it's more 19th century tsarism than communism, really.
I'm not sure there was ever much a difference between the two.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 02 2015 00:59 radscorpion9 wrote: All I know is, I have watched Russia Today Don't do that.
On March 02 2015 00:59 radscorpion9 wrote:and seen how anti-west (really just anti-US) it can be, and that sometimes it is so obvious and extreme, that I am left genuinely shocked; especially with the stories about Ukraine being composed entirely of nazis killing Russian speaking people. I am even more worried after now reading that most people in Russia simply don't have access to any other sources of news, or that they can't read any foreign languages. I think this is a wake up call to how damaging propaganda can be in its most extreme forms; we assumed this was just an isolated case in North Korea and China, but it started up so easily in Russia...and now it is the norm there.
What is the future of Russia going to be like? Putin looks like he's going to be a dictator for the rest of his life because he controls all the media, and therefore the minds of mostly all Russian citizens. This is why his approval ratings are at 90% in spite of a crumbling economy. If North Korea is any indication there won't ever be a breaking point. People will believe you are the savior even if your economy is non-existent and your technology is from the 50s while people are starving around you. As someone who reads news in both English and Russian, I would have to say that Russian news is definitely more objective as a whole (BBC is probably the English last source that still believes in journalistic integrity - everyone else just says whatever they want). There are some sources which are obviously propaganda (and everyone knows they are, this includes RT and Channel 1), and more level-headed sources as well (which are rarely in English). These days, apparently Twitter counts for a source, although if you look back at old threads with Twitter feeds, you will find more reckless speculation than truth.
Putin's approval rating is very high because he made things better for people (and that's also why the West doesn't really like him). It went as low as 20% at some points, such as during the Georgian crisis (though he was PM during this specific point). His popularity spike after the Crimean referendum is very much legitimate, judging by all those I know who didn't really like him much before who approve of him now.
If foreign countries started heavily investing into political parties in your country, you would think of them as traitors as well. Some groups are seen as traitors for exactly this reason; foreign funding for opposition groups in Russia is all too common. Not always fair but this tendency didn't develop without good reason.
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