|
As you can see. Despite of the fact i'm a noob with the 15p/16h, the 11p/18h is behind (with a third at 6:00, and it's worse with a third around 4:00). I don't feel i sucked with the 11p/18h, but maybe it's false.
Can someone make a proper replay for the 15p/16h ?
Note that's for the 11p/18h, i got 19 larvaes so i could make 19 drones. But they can't be ready for 9:00 so i just keep larvaes.
Maybe i'm wrong, but i think the only scenario where 11p/18h is better is when you want to stay on 2 bases against a FFE (hatch first is better, but you can't hatch first easily against a FFE). 15p/16h is really better for a fast third. But i don't know what's going on is the protoss block your expand.
@Belial : Now with 15/16 i hit 70 supply at 8:00 ^^ And i'm still pretty noob with this so i could make better.
So what you are saying is that my criticism was correct?
Don't mean to be mean at all at the start, I just found some contradictions with what you found. If Protoss blocks your natural you take it at 21 with 4 lings from the pool popping, obviously it's a delay but toss has delayed themselves just as much by making that pylon.
|
I never said you were wrong.
I try to test with 15/16 with a pylon block. It's pretty hard to test because you need a protoss player to help you and it's can depend of your micro. If i can take my third (at 16 or a little later), your are just a little behind (compare to a normal 15/16). But the protoss is a little behind too, so no big deal.
If the protoss block natural and the third, it's pretty hard to tell what's it better between 11/18 and 15/16. But in the case of a 15/16 with a double block, the protoss clearly disturb his macro. With a 11/18, the protoss just can't block your expands so he (most of the time) don't do anything and just macro. He can't nexus first so he does a normal FFE.
|
testing it in a 100% controlled environment n hving everything built at the same time to me is just theorycrafting i like the op's approach of hving realistic target by like the 7:30-8:00mark where each opening uses its most efficient way. n lets discuss along this line
|
So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that.
|
On March 09 2012 16:41 oOOoOphidian wrote: So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that. You don't understand the 15 pool 16 hatch build, but ... you are wrong. And the 15 p 16 h example includes a drone scout so that is taken into consideration. 3rd base location is 'safe' in that if it is finished before cannon, you can defend it, if it doesn't, you can cancel and end up ahead.
Simple fact is, you will always be able to get your 16 hatch down at 16 unless you did something wrong, and with the drone scout you are still far ahead, and if he choses to pylon block your natural and cannon your third, he is ruining his own build so much that he is welcome to it (you just cancel your 16 hatch after cannons complete, and take your natural after killing the pylon leaving him far behind).
And again, check the replay on the last page.
11 / 18 is just worse economically.
11 / 18 does allow you to punish a nexus first somewhat, but that's a gamble you are taking, not a good economic play.
|
So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that.
Why would 11pool not have to drone scout? If you don't realize Toss is doing a proxy doublegate, you are fucked just the same. If toss throws down 3 pylons, you are just as fucked as the lings still won't come out in time (you have to do a 10 pool or earlier to get lings in time to deal with a cannon rush, otherwise if you don't pull drones or patrol the ramp, you will lose just as if you went 16 pool).
And 11 pool is just as negatively affected by a pylon block, I don't know you think it wouldn't be. Also, while there are some interesting timings where an 11 pool can get lings in, you only get 4 lings in, which won't be enough to do damage, and you have to kill about 4+ probes to make it worthwhile, which is extremely unlikely except at the lower levels. You have to realize the damage you are doing to yourself. If you think there are merits in scoutings, a normal 15 drone scout would do just fine with either build.
There's nothing an 11 pool really does, that makes it any 'safer' or 'cheeseproof' than 14 pool.
|
On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote: Why would 11pool not have to drone scout? If you don't realize Toss is doing a proxy doublegate, you are fucked just the same. I really don't see how a proxy doublegate is a problem. You get roaches out much sooner with a 12p, and in the meantime just dance your queen around, move lings in and out, and distract the zealots from doing economic damage by building spines and running your workers around as necessary. This micro battle is certainly winnable. I've held this before without scouting, relatively easily. Even if your second hatch falls, you have roaches against their zealots.... you can either re-expand or crush them with an all-in.
On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote: If toss throws down 3 pylons, you are just as fucked as the lings still won't come out in time (you have to do a 10 pool or earlier to get lings in time to deal with a cannon rush, otherwise if you don't pull drones or patrol the ramp, you will lose just as if you went 16 pool). I've also used a 12 pool to break through a pylon block by pulling a few drones first to weaken the middle pylon, then the lings were able to finish it off. I killed the cannon with the lings and the few drones I pulled just as it was warping in. Make a couple extra lings behind the initial four to punish the toss and take the game right there, or just drone up and take a huge economic advantage. I think the misconception is that people think you can just wait for lings to beat a pylon block, and that's not true, your lings will be too late.
On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote: And 11 pool is just as negatively affected by a pylon block, I don't know you think it wouldn't be. Ummm, what??? With 12/19, if they pylon block you, you just build an extra drone and put your hatch down at 20, costing them 100 resources for like a 10 second delay. I'll take that all day... of course most toss aren't stupid enough to waste 100 minerals for such a small delay
- - - - - -
You really can't mess with a 12/19 opening, it's very safe. That said, I'm definitely going to try the 15p, and I guess I'll just have to learn how to deal with pylon blocks with this build.
|
With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus?
|
On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that. Why would 11pool not have to drone scout? If you don't realize Toss is doing a proxy doublegate, you are fucked just the same. If toss throws down 3 pylons, you are just as fucked as the lings still won't come out in time (you have to do a 10 pool or earlier to get lings in time to deal with a cannon rush, otherwise if you don't pull drones or patrol the ramp, you will lose just as if you went 16 pool). And 11 pool is just as negatively affected by a pylon block, I don't know you think it wouldn't be. Also, while there are some interesting timings where an 11 pool can get lings in, you only get 4 lings in, which won't be enough to do damage, and you have to kill about 4+ probes to make it worthwhile, which is extremely unlikely except at the lower levels. You have to realize the damage you are doing to yourself. If you think there are merits in scoutings, a normal 15 drone scout would do just fine with either build. There's nothing an 11 pool really does, that makes it any 'safer' or 'cheeseproof' than 14 pool. You clearly didn't read what I was saying. With 11 pool you don't need to scout until your lings pop and you can be just fine. A drone scout is completely pointless. An overlord by your natural and the standard drone response to prevent cannons is plenty, while a proxy 2 gate is not a concern for extremely obvious reasons. A 14 pool is roughly the same, except it is required to drone scout to get a scout as early as 11p can accomplish with simply ling scouting. The advantage of ling scouting is even greater on larger maps, of course.
As I requested, someone should compare the relative economy/tech of 15p/16h vs 17 Nexus and 11p/18h vs forge/cannon before nexus/gate. Given how close the two zerg openers are all the way until 9 minutes, I wonder if the disadvantage forced on the protoss is even greater than that disparity.
|
On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations). Oh yeah, funny how I didn't mention the double drone thing cause I was even thinking about it for a bit. (it would definitely be better than pulling drones for doing a hatch-first build, and better than waiting for lings with a later pool-first)
So I just tested 11 overlord 12 pool with 4 zerglings as soon as the pool finishes (15 supply), and 2 gas+ 3 queens done before 7:00. It was not optimally done though, since I just did it in one attempt (and at faster speed). I was supply blocked at 7:00 as well as should/could have build my 3rd hatch earlier.
I had 60/60 supply (supply blocked, hatch finishes about 3 seconds later), and over 300 minerals to build extra stuff when I get supply) at the 7:00 mark. Considering you had 1 extra drone and 50 extra minerals, that puts what I did ahead in net value by about 200 minerals. The reasoning behind this is probably due to your longer drone transfer times from having a further third, maybe having to transfer queen, and the early drone scout/contingency-builder not mining.
Anyway, the reason I came back here (which seems to ironically agree with the post above me), was to mention that a faster pool-first build not only gives good economy, but it will hinder the protoss economy (this has probably been said already though I guess). This game isn't just one-sided. A faster pool first makes it a terrible choice for protoss to go nexus-first (in fact I've won many games from that), instead having to build a cannon before nexus. It also makes them have to pull probes earlier to defend a ling runby (or other harass). It might not be a big difference compared to a later pool, but it is still a bonus that should be taken into consideration.
On March 10 2012 05:36 Sbrubbles wrote: With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus? Yes.Even if they go forge-cannon-nexus and you had built 6 lings you can get into their main with 3-4 lings.
On March 10 2012 09:37 oOOoOphidian wrote: With 11 pool you don't need to scout until your lings pop and you can be just fine. A drone scout is completely pointless. I agree that it's perfectly fine to not drone scout, but that doesn't make it useless.
A drone scout is for extra-cautious play and/or extra-cheesy or countering-style play. With a drone scout you can obviously deal with offensive cannoning or gating easier, but that's not the biggest advantage.
The biggest advantage is that you can run a roach rush build or zergling-roach build, or baneling bust, or hidden in-their-base hatchery (probably not effective at the highest level of play, but you'd maybe be surprised how many master/diamond can't deal with it well enough), or regular expand all depending on what you see they did (and what you want to do).
If someone doesn't like any of that stuff, then drone scouting is obviously not something the person should then be doing.
|
On March 10 2012 05:36 Sbrubbles wrote: With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus?
From my experience : not against a good protoss.
Most of the time i can get 4 zerglings in his main so i can scout gas and tech for free until the first stalker. But a good protoss will block with one or two probes so zergling will die at the canon.
|
I really don't see how a proxy doublegate is a problem. You get roaches out much sooner with a 12p, and in the meantime just dance your queen around, move lings in and out, and distract the zealots from doing economic damage by building spines and running your workers around as necessary. This micro battle is certainly winnable. I've held this before without scouting, relatively easily. Even if your second hatch falls, you have roaches against their zealots.... you can either re-expand or crush them with an all-in.
You don't 'counter' doublegates with roaches.... I feel like your knowledge of the game is a bit... off....
You can go hatch first and beat doublegate (i'm not 100% sure if you can hold a 9/9 hardcore doublegate, but a standard 11/12 one you can, you just cancel and still end up ahead because it's so easy to hold). You can definitely hold with a 15 pool. To say that you want roaches, or an earlier pool, against proxy gate, is kind of goofy. And the problem with slow roaches, is that they just get a cybercore and a single stalker, and then 4 gate you while you are on only 1 base, which means you basically autolose.
I've also used a 12 pool to break through a pylon block by pulling a few drones first to weaken the middle pylon, then the lings were able to finish it off. I killed the cannon with the lings and the few drones I pulled just as it was warping in. Make a couple extra lings behind the initial four to punish the toss and take the game right there, or just drone up and take a huge economic advantage. I think the misconception is that people think you can just wait for lings to beat a pylon block, and that's not true, your lings will be too late.
I'm glad this happened once for you, but you realize if the toss is competent and just reinforces the wall, you would never have gotten through to the cannon, and then he just cancels the warping reinforcing buildings (or not) and ends up with basically an autowin, right?
Anyways, it doesn't matter what time you pool goes down, you need to pull drones to deal with a cannon rush. If someone ramp blocks you, you lose. You can hope they are completely incompetent and don't know cancel micro or to reinforce, and then drone drill, but most protoss know now just to lol-addpylons.
Ummm, what??? With 12/19, if they pylon block you, you just build an extra drone and put your hatch down at 20, costing them 100 resources for like a 10 second delay. I'll take that all day... of course most toss aren't stupid enough to waste 100 minerals for such a small delay
Going 12/19 just puts you sooooooooo far behind. I don't know how you can say you'll 'take that all day', you just totally screw yourself over with your build doing a 12 pool like that. And any competent toss will see that the pool was put down before 2:00 (ie earlier than 14 pool) and react by not putting down a pylon, and putting a cannon down quicker at home.
You really can't mess with a 12/19 opening, it's very safe. That said, I'm definitely going to try the 15p, and I guess I'll just have to learn how to deal with pylon blocks with this build.
6 pool is a 'safe' build too, if your definition of 'safe' is to completely fuck yourself over economically to make sure you don't die in the next 2 minutes if you have bronze level micro and macro. But it is completely not safe, if by safe, what you actually mean, is a build that can survive any cheese or attack thrown at you if you respond correctly, and keeps you on even economic footing with the opponent.
With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus?
Depends on map, depends how toss responds (ie they can wall off with 2 gates real quick). They have to go forge/nexus/gate on most maps to let the lings in. Forge/nexus/cannon will deny the lings if they react appropriately, like a temporary gateway or something. But the problem is that 3 lings (1 killed by cannon, or maybe not), even 4, isn't going to kill more than 2 probes, and you need to kill like 4+ probes for it to be economically worth it over just a standard 14 pool.
You kind of need to drone scout in ZvP to make sure toss isn't going proxy gate, I feel.
|
On March 08 2012 06:25 Berailfor wrote: It isn't the exact same at 7 minutes as a 14p 16h. And pros don't do it because it relies on your opponent blindly going 15 nexus. If they forge at 13 and deny your lings then it was a complete waste to pool at 11 instead of 14. Then the third is later and when either void ray pressure or +1 4gate pressure come in your gonna have a harder time dealing with it than if you would have went 14P. The only reason I see for going 11 pool is if you want to try and get free wins from getting zerglings into the main base.. It is inferior for actually trying a macro game.
And on a side note you still probably don't want to hatch first even against a gateway opening. Protoss can cancel gate and cannon rush. Not cancel gate and cannon rush with zealot pressure (that ones really good). Stalker pressure and almost all of those puts the Protoss in a better spot than if you would have just 14 pool 16 hatched.
Long story short, dont 11 pool unless your gameplan is "rely on Protoss doing something stupid." which is exactly why pros don't do it. They dont plan their build around the Protoss playing risky or doing something dumb.
On March 08 2012 07:39 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing...
Say the guy who has no clue about why we're doing pool 11/12/13 in the first place... If we wanted to sneak some glings in, we would rather go for pool before over in most case anyway. The main reason for this build is simple : Deny pylon block and probe block with faster 4 glings. Sure it may not be a better economic build than p14 or p15 or whatever build you're using but ONLY if you aren't blocked. Simple as that.
Btw, overpool or p11 before ovi can really helps you a lot more against ramp's pylon block. There's absolutely nothing wrong doing that build.
|
^ I've said this a million fucking times and people don't seem to hear it: 11 overpool will NOT have lings out in time to deal with a ramp block. Why don't you actually try testing it out before saying something that is completely fucking wrong, because I used the stupid build for a year solely because I thought it was ramp-block-proof, and the day I stopped was when someone went ahead and did it. Won't help you at all against it. Either you have a drone on patrol there, or you don't (or, you went 10 pool or earlier).
|
My bad yeah, even pool10 before ovi doesn't seem to work against 3 pylon's block ramp.
|
On March 10 2012 22:41 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:25 Berailfor wrote: It isn't the exact same at 7 minutes as a 14p 16h. And pros don't do it because it relies on your opponent blindly going 15 nexus. If they forge at 13 and deny your lings then it was a complete waste to pool at 11 instead of 14. Then the third is later and when either void ray pressure or +1 4gate pressure come in your gonna have a harder time dealing with it than if you would have went 14P. The only reason I see for going 11 pool is if you want to try and get free wins from getting zerglings into the main base.. It is inferior for actually trying a macro game.
And on a side note you still probably don't want to hatch first even against a gateway opening. Protoss can cancel gate and cannon rush. Not cancel gate and cannon rush with zealot pressure (that ones really good). Stalker pressure and almost all of those puts the Protoss in a better spot than if you would have just 14 pool 16 hatched.
Long story short, dont 11 pool unless your gameplan is "rely on Protoss doing something stupid." which is exactly why pros don't do it. They dont plan their build around the Protoss playing risky or doing something dumb. Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 07:39 Berailfor wrote:On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing... Say the guy who has no clue about why we're doing pool 11/12/13 in the first place... If we wanted to sneak some glings in, we would rather go for pool before over in most case anyway. The main reason for this build is simple : Deny pylon block and probe block with faster 4 glings. Sure it may not be a better economic build than p14 or p15 or whatever build you're using but ONLY if you aren't blocked. Simple as that. Btw, overpool or p11 before ovi can really helps you a lot more against ramp's pylon block. There's absolutely nothing wrong doing that build. Actually, I think 15 pool 16 hatch is better against pylon block.
You see he puts it up, you make a base in his base, and have a better economy to build roaches (which you can also use to break down the pylons if you build 1 in your main base).
|
I don't understand you problems with pylon blocks. Every time i see a probe near my natural, i send a drone on it. So i never have a "free probe" in my base. So if a probe try a pylon block, i take the drone and do hold position and i pull my drones.
Am i wrong ?
|
^ If you just have a drone following the probe, the way the AI works is that the probe can get 3 pylons up very easily. Like he lets you hit it, and then he goes and sets the three down very quickly before the drone can re-accelerate to be in front of the probe.
It's possible to use just 1 drone to follow the probe, but you have to have some pretty godly micro and have to be watching it completely. Even as a mid-masters zerg, I've never been able to stop a ramp block with just that one, following drone at the start of the game, given that I have to set course for my starting overlord, my drone scout, putting down a pool, and trying to get a hatch down.
Even nestea and most pros will put a 2nd drone to patrol the ramp at 16 supply (ie arrives at 17, when toss would have enough for 3 pylons), so I doubt that just following the probe with a single drone would be enough.
The best thing to do is just send that 2nd drone at 16 supply down there. If he's trying to block the hatch, use the 2 drones to nip away at the probe (if micro'd, 2 drones will take care of a blocking probe very quickly, he has to throw down a pylon, which is a good thing for you if you went pool first because it hurts him more than you economically). If you see him try to ramp block or cannon rush, you use that 2nd drone to block real quick. Otherwise, it's a good chance to try to get that hatch down (just a single drone will never get it down in front of a probe).
All you really are trying to do is prevent that 3 pylon ramp bullshit, which is an autowin if toss can get all 3 up (you can't drone drill on about 90% of spawn positions of all maps, and most maps you can't even do it on, and even if you can drone drill, toss can just reinforce and still wins, and even IF you bust through, he still comes out way ahead economically because he's mining and spends 300 minerals, and you are mining with maybe 2 workers at most the whole time). So you can maybe just send 1 drone to hold position on the ramp and just not follow the probe.
|
Ok thanks.
All you really are trying to do is prevent that 3 pylon ramp bullshit, which is an autowin
I don't agree. Idra got "pylon blocked" many times on his stream, and he don't loose all the time. I don't say it's balanced, but it's not "autowin" ^^
|
^ Please link videos. I don't really consider it viable if a Toss, who knows Zerg is on 1 base, actually lets a proxy hatch or nydus go up, or takes his natural stupidly fast after his successful block.
I'd say it's autowin. But whatever, it's kind of irrelevant, for argument's sake we can settle on 'really fucking far behind'.
|
|
|
|