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On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot. I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ... Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds. I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations).
Aren't you kind of screwed if you scout that your opponent didn't FFE and you expanded to a tough to defend third due to Nat being blocked? I guess you could just wait for lings so you can take your nat, but that would prob put you behind a 12p/19h then.
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On March 09 2012 01:30 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:28 Dr_Hyde wrote:On March 09 2012 01:22 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran! Even vs bunker rush? I'm fine with that btw, just wondering why, I guess I'm able to fight off most bunker rushes even with hatch first, so probably not an issue, but seems like it would be easier to do with pool first but I guess at the expense of econ, of course, fighting off bunker rushes with hatch first I usually lose a few drones. You need the creep and you need to avoid him putting bunkers down from your ramp and containing you. It's actually harder to beat bunker rushes with pool first. With a confirmed 2 rax bunker rush, you can just pull all your drones to your natural and mine there and defend with those + lings. But if your natural isn't done yet, you really can't do that, because you would stop all mining, and he can just kite you until you die. Or force a cancel then bunker contain you.
Gotcha, ok, thanks for the info, I'll keep doing it like I have been, but maybe I'll switch to 15h instead of 16h like I've done for a long time. Anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread!
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On March 09 2012 01:30 KimJongChill wrote: In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time? No.
Because you don't transfer drones there, instead you transfer when your 3rd is up at your natural.
Just check the replay I posted.
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On March 09 2012 01:31 Grayboosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot. I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ... Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds. I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations). Aren't you kind of screwed if you scout that your opponent didn't FFE and you expanded to a tough to defend third due to Nat being blocked? I guess you could just wait for lings so you can take your nat, but that would prob put you behind a 12p/19h then. Watch the replay.
I drone scout at 10 and the drone scout - after scouting - returns to put down my third when it has confirmed forge expand.
Which is why I was saying that you and others that kept on about 'what if you are blocked' don't understand the build. You end up ahead no matter what.
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On March 09 2012 01:34 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:31 Grayboosh wrote:On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot. I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ... Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds. I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations). Aren't you kind of screwed if you scout that your opponent didn't FFE and you expanded to a tough to defend third due to Nat being blocked? I guess you could just wait for lings so you can take your nat, but that would prob put you behind a 12p/19h then. Watch the replay. I drone scout at 10 and the drone scout - after scouting - returns to put down my third when it has confirmed forge expand. Which is why I was saying that you and others that kept on about 'what if you are blocked' don't understand the build. You end up ahead no matter what.
I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right?
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Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16.
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On March 09 2012 01:34 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:30 KimJongChill wrote: In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time? No. Because you don't transfer drones there, instead you transfer when your 3rd is up at your natural. Just check the replay I posted.
Okay, I just watched the replay. I feel like you get your warren and evo too late, around 7:30~ isn't that too late to get roaches/spores out in time for zealot or stargate stuff? Also, why do you go lair first, doesn't that delay speed too long?
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On March 09 2012 02:11 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:34 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:30 KimJongChill wrote: In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time? No. Because you don't transfer drones there, instead you transfer when your 3rd is up at your natural. Just check the replay I posted. Okay, I just watched the replay. I feel like you get your warren and evo too late, around 7:30~ isn't that too late to get roaches/spores out in time for zealot or stargate stuff? Also, why do you go lair first, doesn't that delay speed too long? Well, that's why I said the state of the game at 7:00 is what matters for your build, because after that, it depends on scouting information (and also, you should sacrifice overlords).
But my feeling is that it's much better to get lair first, and roach speed faster, than to get ling speed faster, in most scenarios.
But timings for spores, and or spines, and or units, spare queen or not, 4th or not, macro hatch or not, etc, that all depends on what I scout with 2 overlords at 7:00 - 7:10 when I move them in to sacrifice them.
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On March 09 2012 01:51 Grayboosh wrote: I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right? I don't think I am behind in that case. Either way, if the protoss is going for any kind of gateway expand, I always feel ahead anyway. It's much easier to deal with in my eyes.
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On March 09 2012 02:19 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:51 Grayboosh wrote: I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right? I don't think I am behind in that case. Either way, if the protoss is going for any kind of gateway expand, I always feel ahead anyway. It's much easier to deal with in my eyes.
Fair enough, thanks for the replay (I'll watch it when I get home) and the explanation. I'm definitely going to try 15p out! Last question, do you recommend pulling a probe to stop pylon blocks or can you tell that they're not saving up for that with your scout?
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On March 09 2012 02:23 Grayboosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:19 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:51 Grayboosh wrote: I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right? I don't think I am behind in that case. Either way, if the protoss is going for any kind of gateway expand, I always feel ahead anyway. It's much easier to deal with in my eyes. Fair enough, thanks for the replay (I'll watch it when I get home) and the explanation. I'm definitely going to try 15p out! Last question, do you recommend pulling a probe to stop pylon blocks or can you tell that they're not saving up for that with your scout? I recommend letting them build it if they want to. My drone is out on the map. Normally I would respond by building a base in their base.
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Question!
I know you can't punish a forge-cannon-nexus with an 11 overpool, but can you punish a Nexus first? What about a forge-nexus-cannon?
Edit: I would consider sneaking 4 lings into the main enough
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You can definitively push a nexus first with a 11 pool. Just make 6 zerglings (and so expand at 20) and you can for all probes to chases your zerglings.
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On March 09 2012 02:00 Magus.421 wrote: Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16.
So you just drone scout on 10 then either 15/16 or 12/19 depending on the stuff (or lack thereof) in the main/nat?
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On March 09 2012 03:11 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:00 Magus.421 wrote: Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16. So you just drone scout on 10 then either 15/16 or 12/19 depending on the stuff (or lack thereof) in the main/nat?
I don't think you'll be able to scout them in time to switch to 12/19 with a 10 drone on bigger maps (plus one of the benefits of 12/19 is that you dont waste mining time on a drone scout). Also, the 12/19 build uses the extractor trick vs the 15/16 build which uses the regular 9 OL. These openings are optimized for their respective builds so it will mess up your timings a bit if you ended up switching to a different build.
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On March 09 2012 03:11 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:00 Magus.421 wrote: Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16. So you just drone scout on 10 then either 15/16 or 12/19 depending on the stuff (or lack thereof) in the main/nat? I disagree that 11 / 19 is better but either way, you choose 15 / 16 or 11 / 19 without any scouting information.
11 / 19 doesn't drone scout. 15 16 can (and imho should).
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Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective?
Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread!
Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players?
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On March 09 2012 04:02 Dr_Hyde wrote:Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective? Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread! Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players? 1) If you go 15 pool vs protoss you spend all larvae instantly when it pops. There is no reason for going later pool, since it would only mean you aren't spending your minerals as fast as you can. It's the latest, and therefore most economical, pool because it doesn't sacrifice any drone production before pool.
2) vs Terran 15 hatch has been pretty much figured to be the most economical. What you do after that depends on what your plans are. Some go 17 pool 18 gas, which with good drone micro, means that the moment the moment your expansion pops, you can start 2 queens because the pool finish at the same time. Others chose earlier gas, and go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool for example. Others again delay gas to 23 or so, which allows them to get either macro hatch, or spare queens earlier.
There's no 'right' way to play it.
I haven't tested myself, but my understanding is that 15 hatch is the most economical because you can start 2 queens a bit earlier. I just like it that way.
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On March 09 2012 05:01 aebriol wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2012 04:02 Dr_Hyde wrote:Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective? Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread! Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players? 1) If you go 15 pool vs protoss you spend all larvae instantly when it pops. There is no reason for going later pool, since it would only mean you aren't spending your minerals as fast as you can. It's the latest, and therefore most economical, pool because it doesn't sacrifice any drone production before pool. 2) vs Terran 15 hatch has been pretty much figured to be the most economical. What you do after that depends on what your plans are. Some go 17 pool 18 gas, which with good drone micro, means that the moment the moment your expansion pops, you can start 2 queens because the pool finish at the same time. Others chose earlier gas, and go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool for example. Others again delay gas to 23 or so, which allows them to get either macro hatch, or spare queens earlier. There's no 'right' way to play it. I haven't tested myself, but my understanding is that 15 hatch is the most economical because you can start 2 queens a bit earlier. I just like it that way.
Thank you very much for your replies, you have helped my game quite a bit just in this thread!
1) so when do you place your hatch here if you 15 pool against toss, 14, 15, or 16, do you have an idea of which is the most economical or is it just the point where your money gets back to about 200 and you need to send your drone towards natural?
2) I tend to play no gas at all until 40+ supply so I won't worry about the gas timing as it pertains to this build, 17 pool sounds about right though to me as when I go 16h/16p I have enough money for both queens instantly when the expo finished along with the pool, sounds like when you go 15h you just push the pool out further to maybe 17 to equal out to what I was doing with 16h/16p. I would assume that waiting any longer than 17 for your pool would cut significantly into drone production as it pushes your queens and therefore injects out too late?
From what you're saying along with the input from the rest of the thread, seems I will do the following: toss - 15p/16h (please let me know what you think about the hatch timing, i.e., 14, 15, 16 or later?) Terr - 15h/17p
Thanks again for your help aebriol!
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On March 09 2012 05:51 Dr_Hyde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:01 aebriol wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2012 04:02 Dr_Hyde wrote:Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective? Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread! Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players? 1) If you go 15 pool vs protoss you spend all larvae instantly when it pops. There is no reason for going later pool, since it would only mean you aren't spending your minerals as fast as you can. It's the latest, and therefore most economical, pool because it doesn't sacrifice any drone production before pool. 2) vs Terran 15 hatch has been pretty much figured to be the most economical. What you do after that depends on what your plans are. Some go 17 pool 18 gas, which with good drone micro, means that the moment the moment your expansion pops, you can start 2 queens because the pool finish at the same time. Others chose earlier gas, and go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool for example. Others again delay gas to 23 or so, which allows them to get either macro hatch, or spare queens earlier. There's no 'right' way to play it. I haven't tested myself, but my understanding is that 15 hatch is the most economical because you can start 2 queens a bit earlier. I just like it that way. Thank you very much for your replies, you have helped my game quite a bit just in this thread! 1) so when do you place your hatch here if you 15 pool against toss, 14, 15, or 16, do you have an idea of which is the most economical or is it just the point where your money gets back to about 200 and you need to send your drone towards natural? 2) I tend to play no gas at all until 40+ supply so I won't worry about the gas timing as it pertains to this build, 17 pool sounds about right though to me as when I go 16h/16p I have enough money for both queens instantly when the expo finished along with the pool, sounds like when you go 15h you just push the pool out further to maybe 17 to equal out to what I was doing with 16h/16p. I would assume that waiting any longer than 17 for your pool would cut significantly into drone production as it pushes your queens and therefore injects out too late? From what you're saying along with the input from the rest of the thread, seems I will do the following: toss - 15p/16h (please let me know what you think about the hatch timing, i.e., 14, 15, 16 or later?) Terr - 15h/17p Thanks again for your help aebriol! I would recommend you watching the replay I made earlier for ZvP.
It's quite specific in what I think is the best way to do it: 10 drone scout, 15 pool, 16 hatch, queen, ling ling drone drone queue 2nd queen, drone (rally to third): you are now at 24 supply, make one overlord, then your third, at around 4:20.
Then I take 2 gas at 42-44 supply, and my third gas at 54 or a bit later. Just my preference.
Of course, it's even better if you copy DRG or Stephano - they are the two Zergs that really knows how to play ZvP.
For ZvT I prefer 15 pool 16 gas 16 pool myself. I like the early ling speed for a variety of reasons - especially being able to punish Terrans that cut corners (I find that in most situations, I can kill the initial 4 hellions fine and then do some pressure and take back map control with some early lings). It's another discussion though.
Of course
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