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On September 16 2012 17:29 Vindicare605 wrote: Here's the thing though. Air-Toss works great against a Meching Terran.
If Terran ONLY is able to use Bio against Protoss, then Protoss will never be able to go Air vs Terran.
It's in Protoss players best interest to help make Mech a viable option, because when Terrans start using that option it opens up the Stargate as a viable counter measure fostering new dynamics of the match up.
I have to agree here. We want the Carrier to stay, and as long as mech is viable in TvP, it WILL stay.
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On September 16 2012 16:55 Ironsights wrote: I was so excited when I first heard about the beta.
Warhound: A core mech unit that doesn't require "set up" time and isn't just dead when caught not set up. Widow Mines: a beastly little bomb that can wreck almost any non-massive unit Raves: Faster, cheaper missles BattleCruisers: Cheaper Yamato, damage buff Reapers: Combat healing allowing them to be used more than once.
All in all it sounded like terran was finally going to get some love after all those nerfs. We get one nudge in teh early game and several in teh late, justwhat we needed.
but then...
Warhound: gone Ravens: Energy change was a bug BattelCruisers: Ooops, damage nerfed Widowmines: expensive as hell for minimum damage, and TWO SUPPLY /rage Reapers...are actually still good.
So, looking at it like this
Protoss gets teh carreir AND the tempest plus an oracle that harasses mineral lines, spies, and counters infestors Zerg get the viper to shorten enmy range and pull apart positions as well as the swarm host to make an endless free army AND ultralisks that can burrow charge ffs...
And terran gets the reaper back out of the dark abyss it had been banished to, Maybe. I sense nerfs incoming.
So OP, yeah, I am very disappointed with HotS
Warhound was a stupid unit that was INCREDIBLY overpowered and added no interesting gameplay elements whatsoever. So it HAD to be removed.
Widow Mines were so incredibly underused in the first part of the beta because all Terran players did was mass Warhounds and win with them. When Terrans start using Widow Mines they'll figure out for sure whether 2 supply is too expensive and how better to balance them, or they'll figure out that they're actually really good and start winning with them.
No one was testing the Widow Mine though because all anyone cared about was getting cheap and easy wins with the stupid Warhound. Now that it's gone, Terrans can start using and Blizzard can start actually focusing their balance on the Widow Mine.
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On September 16 2012 17:12 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:58 SoniC_eu wrote: I enjoy reading ppl's comments to the Beta (I am suspending judgement until they come further in the development in terms of mech etc). Skyterran I am dissapointed...I don't understand why Raven and BC were nerfed? Terran needs a viable late game unit, and then everything is fine actually. Terran is known to be strong early-mid game, we don't need more shit. It's late game that there are no obvious unit compositions to play around with. I find that other races have well established unit comps that require limited micro, whereas terran are stuck on tier 1-2,5 units all game long which require more micro simply because they aren't that good as the game goes on.
There's a reason for that, Marines are better than Zerglings or Zealots at every point in the game, it's like the fundamental design elements of your race to be able to use your Marines from start to finish. Chargelots are pretty fucking fantastic with upgrades. So are zerglings with adrenal glands. Well I can tell you it's not fun facing infestor BL/HT Colossus vs. marines. Marines aren't that useful late game. After midgame, if you make marines you had better have some godlike micro (ie. no one really makes marines late game. That's cos they suck in late game. )
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Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
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"Any other Terrans really displeased with HotS?"
Why is it none of these questions existed before removal of the warhound? Like seriously it's gone from absoloutely not a peep from Terran players to maximum QQ (the battlenet forums are insane) of course Blizzard are going to put something back in to replace the unit, for fucks sake.
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Warhound = Goliath.
Fixed.
If you want something to break siege lines on TvT, give more range to the thor special ability, so they can do something useful stunning the tanks (weaken it's damage). That would work against inmortals too.
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On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
That's how the game works now, yes because of how weak the other two tech paths are for Terran.
Terran works very differently from Protoss and Zerg in that the race's unit compositions are all based around a particular production structure, (Barracks, Factory, Starport) while using support units from the other two.
Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Viking, Ghost
Marine, Tank, Marauder, Thor, Viking, Medivac,
Hellion, Tank, Thor, Viking, Banshee, Raven
Viking, Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser, Ghost.
etc.
Protoss Robotics tech isn't meant to be an individual entity the way the factory is, all units that are produced with it are SUPPOSED to complement Gateway units by design. This is one of the main reasons why all Protoss ground units share upgrades, while Terran upgrades are split into whatever production structure they come from.
Zerg production works in more linear tiers, Hatchery Tech, Lair tech, Hive tech, with Zerglings being the catch all mineral dump for the race. (They aren't meant to be overly cost effective, they're meant to be expendable and easily replaceable cannon fodder that support the race's larger more powerful tech units.)
This all goes back to why the Marine functions the way it does, and why it appears to be better than the tier 1 units of the other races.
It's designed to be a core unit, while the Zealot and Zergling are designed to be complimentary. The units all serve different roles.
The problem in Wings of Liberty however, and the reason why Marines are overused is because Factory and Starport unit combinations suffer from a lot of problems that Barracks based armies don't suffer from, the most egregious of these being cost efficiency.
This is why Mech (Factory based play) is being so heavily focused on in HoTS. If it becomes a viable alternative, than the Marine becomes less used and more counter options versus Terran open up that Marines normally invalidate. (Such as Stargate tech for Protoss)
You don't need to worry about buffing factory based play because you're worried they'll somehow make Marines even more powerful because Terran production doesn't work that way. Buffing Factory or Starport units is actually in a lot of ways an indirect nerf to Marines because if Terrans start to focus on those other unit combinations as they become more viable, they'll naturally make fewer Marines.
This is very different from Zerg or Protoss who will literally ALWAYS be making Zealots or Zerglings, regardless of what their core unit combination is.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On September 16 2012 18:07 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
That's how the game works now, yes because of how weak the other two tech paths are for Terran. Terran works very differently from Protoss and Zerg in that the race's unit compositions are all based around a particular production structure, (Barracks, Factory, Starport) while using support units from the other two. Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Viking, Ghost Marine, Tank, Marauder, Thor, Viking, Medivac, Hellion, Tank, Thor, Viking, Banshee, Raven Viking, Raven, Banshee, Battlecruiser, Ghost. etc. Protoss Robotics tech isn't meant to be an individual entity the way the factory is, all units that are produced with it are SUPPOSED to complement Gateway units by design. This is one of the main reasons why all Protoss ground units share upgrades, while Terran upgrades are split into whatever production structure they come from. Zerg production works in more linear tiers, Hatchery Tech, Lair tech, Hive tech, with Zerglings being the catch all mineral dump for the race. (They aren't meant to be overly cost effective, they're meant to be expendable and easily replaceable cannon fodder that support the race's larger more powerful tech units.) This all goes back to why the Marine functions the way it does, and why it appears to be better than the tier 1 units of the other races. It's designed to be a core unit, while the Zealot and Zergling are designed to be complimentary. The units all serve different roles. The problem in Wings of Liberty however, and the reason why Marines are overused is because Factory and Starport unit combinations suffer from a lot of problems that Barracks based armies don't suffer from, the most egregious of these being cost efficiency. This is why Mech (Factory based play) is being so heavily focused on in HoTS. If it becomes a viable alternative, than the Marine becomes less used and more counter options versus Terran open up that Marines normally invalidate. (Such as Stargate tech for Protoss) You don't need to worry about buffing factory based play because you're worried they'll somehow make Marines even more powerful because Terran production doesn't work that way. Buffing Factory or Starport units is actually in a lot of ways an indirect nerf to Marines because if Terrans start to focus on those other unit combinations as they become more viable, they'll naturally make fewer Marines. This is very different from Zerg or Protoss who will literally ALWAYS be making Zealots or Zerglings, regardless of what their core unit combination is.
This post basically explains why mech play needs to be viable. It opens up soo many more options to the other races that are just not viable when there's a lot of marines. Muta play for zerg, Skytoss and Carriers. It'll branch out the game sooo much more than we have already.
Sure Bio is exciting to watch in TvP, but I'd love for their to be an alternative. Bio/Mech works in both TvT and TvZ, why can't we have it in TvP to mix things up? It means Terrans who don't have Taeja micro can play a style to fit them. I mean I play mech in TvP in WoL, but it's soo much harder than anything.
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On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
I think the right word would be "must". Terran must build their whole army around the marine. Big difference.
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On September 16 2012 17:55 MoonCricket wrote: Zerglings and Zealots aren't core units in the sense that Marines are core units, they're supplimentary units for higher tech units like Infestors or Archons where you can literally build your whole army around the Marines. Zerglings and Zealots are stepping stone units to higher tech units that still serve a role in late game compositions, where the higher tech units in the Terran army are literally built around supporting the Marine, from Marauders, Ghosts, Hellions, Siege Tanks, Medivacs and Vikings.
Marines are made from start to finish in about every match up, I don't really know what you're talking about there.
But then does it work ? I don't count the games I've seen a marine army get obliterated by colossi HT / infestor baneling. From lategame in TvP and midgame in ZvT, marines die to everything and there's no real other option since mech is pretty easy to counter and Sky terran has too many flaws (cost efficiency, vulnerability to fungle/feedback, hard to transition into and if you go directly into it you die early game).
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Yes, I am. To the point that I won't be bothered buying HotS if things stay more or less the same as they are now.
I don't know why I should buy new game just to fix stuff which should be fixed in WoL for free (mech and T late game). Also Blizzard innability to come with something even remotely interesting for terran doesn't bode well for LotV...
Well, good luck to the brave remaining terran players. You will need it.
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I would be happy with 10 damage BC, 100 energy HSM, and battlehellion. Good mines would be nice too but just that and I'm sold. :/
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Terran is just too hard to play as is. I'm not buying HOTS because it just doesnt seem fair that terran players are asked to work twice as hard to make weaker units viable, while not have late game units worth a damn. I just dont think blizzard cares at all about how hard it is to play terran because as long as MVP wins, there "isnt a problem". I think Terrans nerfs have gone too far, and people with higher skill are being given a handicap to impose "balance". For us non pros, and lower leaguers... its hell trying to use terran and it just doesnt seem like that will ever change.
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I don´t even think a lot of their problems have to do with their race. If they can´t keep up in late game, how much of the blame can be placed on the existence of brood lords, infestors and colossi? Why should terran change?
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Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units..
By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL?
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On September 15 2012 21:21 DKR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 21:09 Existor wrote: Seeker Missle 100 energy cost was a bug. It's 125 energy again. Also yamato Cannon is still 100 energy He said that he doesn't see how that could be a bug, someone MUST have edited the value at some stage.
that depends on how horrible their software development process is did you see patch 1.5 go live by any chance?
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On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL?
They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty.
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On September 17 2012 04:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL? They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty. Would a late game banshee buff be a good first step towards solving terran late game issues? I like Lucifron's use of them, but it seems like they're just slightly too weak for the role he has them perform.
Similarly, would a buff to nuke as a late-game ability also not solve a lot of the issues?
I find those preferrable to turning the raven into a super unit honestly, especially the banshee has a lot of potential as a unit that can require skill etc.
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On September 16 2012 18:03 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Why is it none of these questions existed before removal of the warhound? Like seriously it's gone from absoloutely not a peep from Terran players to maximum QQ (the battlenet forums are insane) of course Blizzard are going to put something back in to replace the unit, for fucks sake.
Huh? Terrans have been complaining about only getting one interesting unit (the widow mine) since the new HotS units were announced months ago.
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Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades.
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