Is HotS worth it? - Page 17
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On January 05 2013 08:18 Rabiator wrote: The usual answer to this will be [not by me] "but but but the viewer numbers increase and there are more people watching SC2 than there were ever watching BW" ... and this is the point: - BW was a game made for people to play and just have a bit of fun; - SC2 is a game made for people to watch as an eSport. No point to buy it unless you really want to play the game and that probably means you are playing with a somewhat competitive "I want to be better" mindset and not an "I want to just have a laugh on a wild BGH game" one. With all the gimmicky and powerful armies in SC2 there never will be an equally fun BGH map ever ... unless it is modded heavily. I share the same opinion for no1. Despite losing alot of games on ICCUP, i still had alot of fun in every game and you could feel the intricate yet brilliant game design flowing through the experience. Every storm or aoe that landed was a remarkable sight because of the amount of skill required to use them effectively, and even if i was at the receiving end, i'd feel good for the opponent. Sc2 on the other hand, was more of a pursuit for the next rank, which given time, became more of a chore than actual enjoyment. Experimentation against the meta game would usually be harmful due to the punishing nature of the game. Also, sc2 forces certain comps in certain match ups which is a bane for the experience in general, i.e. massing bio in TvP, mass collossus, etc, and none of this was really rectified in WoL, Even with the changes in mech for Hots, i weep for it's viability in TvP. The game design in hots is nothing short of uncreative and poorly thought out. Look at the swarm host and mech in tvp, they're riddled with obvious flaws. I think the bottom line is; Blizzard has misunderstood the intent and purpose of their end product. Gamers want to execute complicated maneuvers (storm, muta control) and lengthy, well planned strategies (Fantasy TvT) and viewers want to watch that. They don't want to watch a cluster fuck deathball engaging in the middle of the map after 25 minutes of massing tier 3 units. They want small engagements, extensive multi-tasking all poised to slowly wither the opponent with precise control over 2-3 areas at once. I'm certain we can agree on one thing, we need a game where the enjoyment is tied to good game design, which in turn, create an experience that enables viewers to absorb what just happened, pause to think for a moment, realise it's brillance and start sweating from nerd chills. | ||
Kranyum
77 Posts
This, my friends, is the sole reason game companies have started shoving highly priced shit into the market instead of focusing on quality... sad. | ||
Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:14 Kranyum wrote: what does the Poll show: the majority of fans don't like the direction of the game, but will buy the game no matter what. This, my friends, is the sole reason game companies have started shoving highly priced shit into the market instead of focusing on quality... sad. Absolutely true. This is reflected in 1) The extremely rushed release date. 2) The lack of effort placed in tweaking, rebalancing and changing unit designs (Helbats, swarm hosts). 3) Fear in introducing radical changes outside more than 1-2 units (oracle/widow mine). 4) Removing units as an excuse to lessen design burden as opposed to making a 'whole game' (warhound/replicant), with no replacements. If these are not indicators of the obvious traits leading to a lack of overall quality, i don't know what is. | ||
JDub
United States976 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:22 Novacute wrote: Absolutely true. This is reflected in 1) The extremely rushed release date. 2) The lack of effort placed in tweaking, rebalancing and changing unit designs (Helbats, swarm hosts). 3) Fear in introducing radical changes outside more than 1-2 units (oracle/widow mine). 4) Removing units as an excuse to lessen design burden as opposed to making a 'whole game' (warhound/replicant), with no replacements. If these are not indicators of the obvious traits leading to a lack of overall quality, i don't know what is. 1) Not sure how the release date is extremely rushed... ? 2) Swarm hosts have been tweaked 4 times, hell bats have been tweaked 5 times, while units like oracles and widow mines have been tweaked in almost every balance update. (Source: Liquipedia) 3) I thought the WoL unit changes were pretty radical. If you mean changing mineral patches/base, removing warp gate, etc. then I'd point out that HotS is an expansion, new units + changing old units + new campaign (and in this case, revamping bnet) is what expansions are all about. 4) The replicant and warhound were terrible units... If your post isn't an indicator of how people will jump at the opportunity to hate on SC2 for no good reason, I don't know what is. | ||
imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:43 JDub wrote: 1) Not sure how the release date is extremely rushed... ? 2) Swarm hosts have been tweaked 4 times, hell bats have been tweaked 5 times, while units like oracles and widow mines have been tweaked in almost every balance update. (Source: Liquipedia) 3) I thought the WoL unit changes were pretty radical. If you mean changing mineral patches/base, removing warp gate, etc. then I'd point out that HotS is an expansion, new units + changing old units + new campaign (and in this case, revamping bnet) is what expansions are all about. 4) The replicant and warhound were terrible units... If your post isn't an indicator of how people will jump at the opportunity to hate on SC2 for no good reason, I don't know what is. 1) The product looks like it's being rushed. Either the higher ups are demanding the release or the dev team is completely incompetent. I'm thinking its the former rather than the latter. 2) Their tweaking is retarded; they're trying to make shitty units work, and if they don't work at all, they remove it completely and don't replace it. 3) Radical changes = changing the mule mechanic, spawn larvae, chrono boost, completely retooling units (i.e, giving the raven an entire completely different skill set), constantly adding/removing new units to see which ones work better rather than sticking with their shitty widow mines. HotS shouldn't be designed as an expansion because WoL needs a complete overhaul, unless you really like seeing deathballs with new units you can barely make out in them. 4) See 2. | ||
Hider
Denmark9236 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:09 imBLIND wrote: 1) The product looks like it's being rushed. Either the higher ups are demanding the release or the dev team is completely incompetent. I'm thinking its the former rather than the latter. 2) Their tweaking is retarded; they're trying to make shitty units work, and if they don't work at all, they remove it completely and don't replace it. 3) Radical changes = changing the mule mechanic, spawn larvae, chrono boost, completely retooling units (i.e, giving the raven an entire completely different skill set), constantly adding/removing new units to see which ones work better rather than sticking with their shitty widow mines. HotS shouldn't be designed as an expansion because WoL needs a complete overhaul, unless you really like seeing deathballs with new units you can barely make out in them. 4) See 2. 1) Sc1 took 1-1.5 years to develop. ITs clearly the latter. They have been wasting too much time with stuff like the warhound/infestors rather than designing stuff that makes sense. Sc2 and HOTS has taken way too long time to develop. A competent team had released it much faster. I think WOW has just made life way too easy for all blizzards employees who basically have no pressure on them, and can remain incompetent without getting fired. This is probably a common thing to happen for a company that has been a monopoly for too long. | ||
aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:10 iSTime wrote: I would guess that only 10% of the people I've met IRL who play starcraft have ever heard of TL, fwiw. This echoes my own experience. For example, I usually team with 2 - 3 good friends (we all played SC1 and BW when we were all at University together in the same hostel/dorm - oh those all night LANS!). None of them are interested in balance or design discussions, or read TL despite me telling them about the resources on the site. They, like me, are all grown men with other priorities and interests of which SC is only a part. They play less now than they used to because a couple have children, and other interests have developed. As is natural. But, one still grinds 1v1 when he can, and we team up together and play 2v2/3v3/4v4 when we can all find the time, even if for 2 or 3 hours/week or three, and have fun. Will they buy HOTS? I don't know. I won't buy it because I won't have the time to play SC, or most games, this year. If they do buy it, and if I buy it, it may be for the campaign, and to follow the story (which unfortunately, WOL admittedly butchered); and, maybe also to try out some multi-player when we can (either single/customs/team). And if we do, it hardly makes us (or other buyers who buy HOTS for their own reasons) "Blizzard fanboys" or "undiscerning consumers". LOL! That is just presumptuous bullshit. It's when you read comments like these you realise how far the TL community can stick its head up its own arse. An unedifying sight. | ||
Razorspine
New Zealand29 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:38 Zorgaz wrote: Hots does give us one good thing though, TvZ is fun again! While by far most fun matchup imo as terran, I do have some issues with it. The swarmhost for example, not only does it really promote deathball style since they are only effective massed up in one spot, it also promotes deathball to counter. Lets say you face random zerg army, with threath of vipers especially, while meching. What do you do? Ideally you nicely spread out your tanks so they can always keep firing. Sure you lose your first ones, but hopefully the majority survives. Now against swarmhost you cant put them too close due to viper (which I found out the hard way), but still in principle to defend against them you need to put your tanks very close together to make sure they can all fire, since trading your first ranks of tanks isnt a good idea when the enemies units are free. | ||
EsMuyVien
United States408 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9236 Posts
On January 07 2013 06:44 Sissors wrote: While by far most fun matchup imo as terran, I do have some issues with it. The swarmhost for example, not only does it really promote deathball style since they are only effective massed up in one spot, it also promotes deathball to counter. Lets say you face random zerg army, with threath of vipers especially, while meching. What do you do? Ideally you nicely spread out your tanks so they can always keep firing. Sure you lose your first ones, but hopefully the majority survives. Now against swarmhost you cant put them too close due to viper (which I found out the hard way), but still in principle to defend against them you need to put your tanks very close together to make sure they can all fire, since trading your first ranks of tanks isnt a good idea when the enemies units are free. This; The swarm hosts is terribly designed. If it isn't changed till release we are going to have some really boring swarm hsots vs tank line battles where nothing happens for 5 minutes. When that is said I have been experiment with doing a mech-drop style which works okay'ish. This is probably the counter to swarm hosts and is really really funny. So far only tested on my unranked against diamond players so its likely that I just win cus they aren't good enough. | ||
snakeeyez
United States1231 Posts
I dont think Bliz will but right now is the only time they have to try some crazy stuff. I will buy it because I like the campaign and I like all the new AI improvements since I usually play the comp maybe some ladder at first before i realize the time and work to get good and just quit. | ||
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:00 Dynamitekid wrote: Of course its going to sell good. The game was hyped because of how good broodwar was. Even most of the pros think SC2 is mediocre. If it wasn't for the money and availability of tournaments, pros will still be playing starcraft:broodwar. An average or mediocre game to a good predecessor doesn't score 93 either. Of course pros rather play a game they already have mastered instead of learning a new one. But BW had a hard time to get new blood into the scene while SC2 did manage just that. The game can't be that bad. For being the only RTS in esports it is probably neither mediocre nor average. | ||
Mahanaim
Korea (South)1002 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On January 07 2013 08:02 EsMuyVien wrote: The fucking lag is terrible. What a fucking joke that they can't even fix a minor issue like that. No-one forces you to play a beta with limited server capacity. | ||
Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:01 musai wrote: lol metacritics, no one would score WOL at 93 right now unless it was campaign only - where no one cares I care about the campaign, this already is more than "no one". Regarding esports viability, Wol seems to be not only the biggest, but in fact the only RTS which is played. Considering that there are other RTS games out there, but none of it really big in esports, Wol seems to be above average for me. Of course, Wol isn't perfect and Hots will not make SC2 perfect. | ||
[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:07 Hider wrote: I disagree, sc2 is a great game; but the success is not related to the skills of the design team, which basically have made every mistake possible in their development of the game. Rather its a success because its based on BW, which is a "can't fail formula" While there were and still are some issues, it is far from being "every mistake possible". In fact, Wol is so good that the remaining minor issues are noticable at all. If if would be enough to follow the BW style, other companies could have made a big RTS title, too. But no-one did. Either there were not interested to get a share of the esports part in the RTS sector or is isn't as easy as it looks. | ||
Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
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