oGsMC mentions that the players holding spots 1-10 in grandmaster in Korea are all terrans, I went onto sc2ranks.com and even though he says so, I was surprised myself at how many terrans were holding the top spots.
Top 20 on Korean Ladder are: 17 Terran 2 Protoss 1 Zerg
I decided to go see the other regions and how they held up.
Top 20 on North American Ladder are: 7 Terran 6 Protoss 7 Zerg
Top 20 on European Ladder are: 7 Terran 6 Protoss 7 Zerg
So interestingly, Europe and North America have equal numbers of each race up at Top 20, whilst the amount of Terrans in Top 20 is lopsided.
Just something I wanted to share with you guys, what do you think?
Terran strategy in Korea seems to be really taking off at the moment, probably in no small part due to the influence of the GSL. I expected Europe to have more toss in the top 20, but I guess high level tournaments don't always necessarily dictate how the general populace plays.
The top NA random is 31st. The top KR random is 62nd. There are no EU GM random players.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!?!
This kind of analysis is kinda meaningless. For the most part, the top players in GM are made up of the players (in GM) who had the most ladder time in the past week.
Terran is a good race for ladder, very resilient to cheese, has a figured out mirror and ladder has these close positions which really favor terran. Seems like Koreans know how to play abusive terran very well.
terrans benefit immensely from multitasking, such as for multiple drop's while pushing out with main army, which requires insane APM and control. Koreans are known to be good with such things.
I don't know about the other servers, but the top 20 of the EU ladder is pretty volatile, the difference in points between #20 and #50 is about a single ladder session for these pros.
At the end of the day, this is a ladder. People that play less on it will be ranked lower. Having someone like NaNiwa @ #32 only shows how much reliable data you can gather about the top pros by looking at the top 20.
Could mean anything. Maybe there was a huge influx of Terrans that simply stacked the numbers at the top when some BW pros switched over...or Terran was the more popular race to choose because of reasons X Y and Z a few months ago...doesn't indicate balance or imbalance.
This is nothing new. As long as GSL's been open and i've been checking terran dominates the top of korean ladder.
Why is Koreans play very agro and terran has best/most agro options and holds off agro best. e.g. 3 rax your way from Bronze to Grand master Late game they are weaker though hence the balance at EU who plays more balanced games.
Its a matter of development. The Korean Terrans are more developed than the World's. I don't remember who said it but its like that for Terrans in Korea and similarly the American Protoss are more developed. While the Zergs are stuck somewhere in between.
You have to realize that most Korean pros practice not on the ladder but in custom games with their teammates. The GM rankings are not an indication of the best players in that region, just the good active ones. Maybe Terran gets the most out of ladder practice because of the wide variety of strategies available to them (they clearly have more units than Z or P) compared to the other races.
Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
Was it always like this in previous GM rankings? I seem to remember KR being very T dominated for a few months, but there were points where it had at least 8-9 zergs in the top 20.
Honestly though, you should take at least top 50 (or 64) players. Top 20 is nowhere near enough. It's like taking the code A/S in GSL and completely forgetting about players like DRG, MMA and even BoxeR.
Given that lots of top Koreans don't ladder seriously, I think it's a worse indication of current balance in Korea than it is elsewhere. Does anyone really not think Nestea is in the top 20 strongest players in Korea right now? (I'm not sure what is actually a better way to gauge it, though. GSL is the obvious thing, but the sample size of games there is way too low.)
On July 14 2011 11:51 Cloud9157 wrote: This just proves that Korean Terrans are the ones that represent the Terran race.
Terrans outside of Korea that could match Korean Terrans? Could probably count them on 1 hand.
...Thorzain?....
Thorzain won TSL where he had weeks to prepare for each opponent. Why do people keep making such a big fuss about him? There are better non-korean terrans out there, such as SeleCT, Sjow and Happy.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
1/1/1 all-ins are pretty bullshit
The two Protoss on the top aren't really the best Protoss either, I doubt anyone would consider them better than Sage,
Puzzle or MC. Though in a general sense, Terran does seem to be the strongest race right now, at least in Korea. Quite the opposite in EU/NA. Almost 50% of the Top 100 is Terran in Korea
On July 14 2011 11:51 Cloud9157 wrote: This just proves that Korean Terrans are the ones that represent the Terran race.
Terrans outside of Korea that could match Korean Terrans? Could probably count them on 1 hand.
...Thorzain?....
Thorzain won TSL where he had weeks to prepare for each opponent. Why do people keep making such a big fuss about him? There are better non-korean terrans out there, such as SeleCT, Sjow and Happy.
I kinda agree with that, thorzain has not placed highly in recent tournaments, hope he trains hard and do well in korea.
Also why do people take this ranking seriously, ladder ranking means so little.
Just watch ICCup Korean weekly and it's very obvious why. Terrans dominate that tournament every week too. Almost half the TvZ are 2 raxes that end in 5 minutes.
On July 14 2011 11:51 Cloud9157 wrote: This just proves that Korean Terrans are the ones that represent the Terran race.
Terrans outside of Korea that could match Korean Terrans? Could probably count them on 1 hand.
...Thorzain?....
Thorzain won TSL where he had weeks to prepare for each opponent. Why do people keep making such a big fuss about him? There are better non-korean terrans out there, such as SeleCT, Sjow and Happy.
I kinda agree with that, thorzain has not placed highly in recent tournaments, hope he trains hard and do well in korea.
Guy's definitely got the potential, like Naniwa. They're going to code A, I believe?
On July 14 2011 11:24 aksfjh wrote: The top NA random is 31st. The top KR random is 62nd. There are no EU GM random players.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!?!
This kind of analysis is kinda meaningless. For the most part, the top players in GM are made up of the players (in GM) who had the most ladder time in the past week.
17 of the top 20 is Terran. That has meaning. Yes, you mentioned a meaningless statistic. Doesn't mean that it is comparable to the stats listed.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
1/1/1 all-ins are pretty bullshit
The two Protoss on the top aren't really the best Protoss either, I doubt anyone would consider them better than Sage,
Puzzle or MC. Though in a general sense, Terran does seem to be the strongest race right now, at least in Korea. Quite the opposite in EU/NA. Almost 50% of the Top 100 is Terran in Korea
I hate that and the 2 and 3rax all ins. Problem is no way to fix it without making terran late game weaker than it already is. What can you do? make marines or tanks slower to come out? disaster for mid - late balance,
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
That plus the new opening that Nada first did on TV which i deemed the Reverse Zatic build because you get a Reactor first instead of techlab. Normal 2 barracks opening but you get more marines and have 3/4 maraduers and push out. If the protoss was greedy in anyway he dies.
EDIT: i already see some whining... try not to get the thread closed.
On July 14 2011 11:51 Cloud9157 wrote: This just proves that Korean Terrans are the ones that represent the Terran race.
Terrans outside of Korea that could match Korean Terrans? Could probably count them on 1 hand.
...Thorzain?....
Thorzain won TSL where he had weeks to prepare for each opponent. Why do people keep making such a big fuss about him? There are better non-korean terrans out there, such as SeleCT, Sjow and Happy.
I kinda agree with that, thorzain has not placed highly in recent tournaments, hope he trains hard and do well in korea.
Also why do people take this ranking seriously, ladder ranking means so little.
Judge by the games not just by results. I thought we learned this from watching Huk go from a decent player to possibly the top foreigner in the matter of a weekend. Thorzain is the only terran that I see consistently play a solid all around game (tvp especially). Is he puma level? No. As far as we know, the only terran on that level is puma himself. Is thorzain at least on par with mid koreans? From all the games I have watched of his since TSL, I'd say he is.
On July 14 2011 11:51 Cloud9157 wrote: This just proves that Korean Terrans are the ones that represent the Terran race.
Terrans outside of Korea that could match Korean Terrans? Could probably count them on 1 hand.
...Thorzain?....
Thorzain won TSL where he had weeks to prepare for each opponent. Why do people keep making such a big fuss about him? There are better non-korean terrans out there, such as SeleCT, Sjow and Happy.
Thorzain has had better results overall then them (including recent head to head with SeleCT and being able to play well when preparing for an opponent is impressive, why try to make it sound otherwise?
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
1/1/1 all-ins are pretty bullshit
The two Protoss on the top aren't really the best Protoss either, I doubt anyone would consider them better than Sage,
Puzzle or MC. Though in a general sense, Terran does seem to be the strongest race right now, at least in Korea. Quite the opposite in EU/NA. Almost 50% of the Top 100 is Terran in Korea
I hate that and the 2 and 3rax all ins. Problem is no way to fix it without making terran late game weaker than it already is. What can you do? make marines or tanks slower to come out? disaster for mid - late balance,
The 1/1/1 thing isn't even comparable to 2/3 rax. The difference is that you can deal with the rax stuff with forcefields quite reliably. Stopping the 1/1/1 rush is a matter of divine intervention.
This may sound odd, but In my view the top players in korea are playing Terran because Terran have Marines which are the best unit in the game by such a large margin right now.
add in the ridiculous synergy with tanks and the BW skillset crossing
On July 14 2011 11:59 sitromit wrote: Just watch ICCup Korean weekly and it's very obvious why. Terrans dominate that tournament every week too. Almost half the TvZ are 2 raxes that end in 5 minutes.
This. People need to understand 90% of terran wins are within 8 minutes and Koreans abuse the shit out of the fact they have half a dozen strong all ins.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
1/1/1 all-ins are pretty bullshit
The two Protoss on the top aren't really the best Protoss either, I doubt anyone would consider them better than Sage,
Puzzle or MC. Though in a general sense, Terran does seem to be the strongest race right now, at least in Korea. Quite the opposite in EU/NA. Almost 50% of the Top 100 is Terran in Korea
I hate that and the 2 and 3rax all ins. Problem is no way to fix it without making terran late game weaker than it already is. What can you do? make marines or tanks slower to come out? disaster for mid - late balance,
The 1/1/1 thing isn't even comparable to 2/3 rax. The difference is that you can deal with the rax stuff with forcefields quite reliably. Stopping the 1/1/1 rush is a matter of divine intervention.
Terrans benefit the most from strong mechanics, namely multitasking and micro, so it's natural that the Koreans Terrans are so good. Focus firing, unit splitting, kiting, all while macroing perfectly is incredibly hard to do and not attainable unless you practice as hard as the Koreans.
Honestly, I think it is because Terran is a very versatile race in terms of the number of different all ins they can do, making them a strong ladder race. Especially for the Koreans who know how to abuse stuff like that to the max. For a long time Terrans held the majority of the top ladder spots on servers outside of Korea as well.
did anyone watch marineking in the FXO KoTH the other day? he won like 4-5 games in a row doing crazy all-ins, no game went past like 8 minutes. that's what i imagine a lot of the korean ladder looks like.
On July 14 2011 12:31 Nexic wrote: did anyone watch marineking in the FXO KoTH the other day? he won like 4-5 games in a row doing crazy all-ins, no game went past like 8 minutes. that's what i imagine a lot of the korean ladder looks like.
Didn't some FXO player say that the first like week or so they were there whenever they'd ladder they would end up getting hit with all sorts of funky all ins?
All this tells me is that I should expect to see Korean Terrans winning events, in which Koreans participate, quite often. I would postulate that this is a result of the amount of benefit and Damage that micro/multitasking can produce when playing Terran.
I hope we will soon see the perfect storm in an Sc2 player, that we see with Flash in BW. A player with the strategy, tactics, understanding, multitasking, micro, and macro to finally give us 1 player with long term dominance in Sc2. Right now I'd have to say that MC and Nestea are the players that have that potential with Zerg, and protoss. When I watch their games, they have the power to just assume control against anyone. There are so many good terrans, both old and upcoming, it's hard to say. MVP, MKP, MMA, PUMA, the list can just go on and on.
On July 14 2011 11:51 Cloud9157 wrote: This just proves that Korean Terrans are the ones that represent the Terran race.
Terrans outside of Korea that could match Korean Terrans? Could probably count them on 1 hand.
...Thorzain?....
Thorzain won TSL where he had weeks to prepare for each opponent. Why do people keep making such a big fuss about him? There are better non-korean terrans out there, such as SeleCT, Sjow and Happy.
It's important to remember that many, if not most, of the Korean teams use ladder as cheesy fun, not serious practice, and that ladder standings often don't reflect or include the very strongest players overall.
That said, I'm not betting against any of the top tier Korean Terrans...
Terran? Dominating the top of Starcraft? And people think it still is different from Brood War. The very make up of Terran in Starcraft in general tends to be one of reliability and experimentation.
or how about Ladder really doesnt mean that much. What really matters is code s, code a, code b, and other tournaments like dreamhack, mlg, ign proleague, NASL. Ladder is not a great source for balance statistics imo.
On July 14 2011 11:51 Cloud9157 wrote: This just proves that Korean Terrans are the ones that represent the Terran race.
Terrans outside of Korea that could match Korean Terrans? Could probably count them on 1 hand.
This is true. The foreign Terran scene is struggling a fair bit in comparison to Z and P counterparts (with the exception of the aforementioned - Kas/ThorzaIN). The Korean Terrans are just on a completely different mechanical skill level, which is absolutely necessary for the unforgiving nature of macro Terran (unless you're a 1-2 base cheesy player like your avilos or Makers).
You need to remember also that T is overrepresented in SC2 in general, T outnumbers most by a large margin in the competitive scene.
I don't think its surprising. Korea has always had a strong Terran tradition dating back to BW. Boxer, Nada, Flash...theres plenty of really talented kids now who choose to play Terran solely because their BW idols played the same. Marineking is a perfect example of that, just think if he chose Protoss or Zerg instead.
Honestly I look at Code S+A and I don't see nearly as many standouts for other races as Terrans.
Terran: Nada, Bomber, SC, MVP, MKP, MMA, Polt, Jinro, Ryung, Top Protoss: MC, Alicia, Huk Zerg: Nestea, Losira, JulyZerg...maybe throw Dongragu in there too.
On July 14 2011 11:30 slicknav wrote: terrans benefit immensely from multitasking, such as for multiple drop's while pushing out with main army, which requires insane APM and control. Koreans are known to be good with such things.
Beat me to it.
But honestly, I don't think the top KR pros concentrate too much on ladder anyways.
On July 14 2011 13:31 RoboBob wrote: Honestly I look at Code S+A and I don't see nearly as many standouts for other races as Terrans.
Terran: Nada, Bomber, SC, MVP, MKP, MMA, Polt, Jinro, Ryung, Top Protoss: MC, Alicia, Huk Zerg: Nestea, Losira, JulyZerg...maybe throw Dongragu in there too.
On July 14 2011 13:31 Skullflower wrote: Replace Fenix with Happy. I don't think Fenix is on the same level as them.
Replace someone with results with someone that doesn't have results who has a marine micro video.
Yeah, that makes sense. Fucking Happy fanboys on this forum. Wait until he does something at a LAN, he was extremely unimpressive at Dreamhack with Goody-esque macro.
On July 14 2011 11:26 Elementsu wrote: Terran is a good race for ladder, very resilient to cheese, has a figured out mirror and ladder has these close positions which really favor terran. Seems like Koreans know how to play abusive terran very well.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
1/1/1 all-ins are pretty bullshit
The two Protoss on the top aren't really the best Protoss either, I doubt anyone would consider them better than Sage,
Puzzle or MC. Though in a general sense, Terran does seem to be the strongest race right now, at least in Korea. Quite the opposite in EU/NA. Almost 50% of the Top 100 is Terran in Korea
Funny, 'cause one of the two Protoss players you mention is, in fact, Sage.
On July 14 2011 13:31 RoboBob wrote: I don't think its surprising. Korea has always had a strong Terran tradition dating back to BW. Boxer, Nada, Flash...theres plenty of really talented kids now who choose to play Terran solely because their BW idols played the same. Marineking is a perfect example of that, just think if he chose Protoss or Zerg instead.
Honestly I look at Code S+A and I don't see nearly as many standouts for other races as Terrans.
Terran: Nada, Bomber, SC, MVP, MKP, MMA, Polt, Jinro, Ryung, Top Protoss: MC, Alicia, Huk Zerg: Nestea, Losira, JulyZerg...maybe throw Dongragu in there too.
this is definitely a big factor
but even coming from a Terran the 1/1/1 all in build is absolutely insane the question is ... how can it be patched without effecting the rest of Terran balance ?
On July 14 2011 11:59 sitromit wrote: Just watch ICCup Korean weekly and it's very obvious why. Terrans dominate that tournament every week too. Almost half the TvZ are 2 raxes that end in 5 minutes.
This. People need to understand 90% of terran wins are within 8 minutes and Koreans abuse the shit out of the fact they have half a dozen strong all ins.
Yes i agree with this. Terran has the ability to win early game easily. They have the most openings and its almost impossible to scout until its almost too late for P and Z.
Terran's don't suffer build order loses basically, its as simply as that.
Zergs feel pressured to fast expand as 1 base Zerg is crap and they are scared of being locked in their base via bunkers at their Natural.
Protoss and Zerg both can die really easy to bancheese, if their guess wrong they are so far behind its almost an auto lose. A unit that is ultra fast, ignores terrain, and has cloak by 8 mins is crazy good.
Korean Terran's use incredibly strong timing pushes to kill the game before 8 minutes Stim timing pushes are so good
On July 14 2011 13:31 RoboBob wrote: I don't think its surprising. Korea has always had a strong Terran tradition dating back to BW. Boxer, Nada, Flash...theres plenty of really talented kids now who choose to play Terran solely because their BW idols played the same. Marineking is a perfect example of that, just think if he chose Protoss or Zerg instead.
Honestly I look at Code S+A and I don't see nearly as many standouts for other races as Terrans.
Terran: Nada, Bomber, SC, MVP, MKP, MMA, Polt, Jinro, Ryung, Top Protoss: MC, Alicia, Huk Zerg: Nestea, Losira, JulyZerg...maybe throw Dongragu in there too.
this is definitely a big factor
but even coming from a Terran the 1/1/1 all in build is absolutely insane the question is ... how can it be patched without effecting the rest of Terran balance ?
It's beatable and actually extremely easy to scout, it just feels like bullshit when you lose to it. It doesn't need to be patched anymore than any of the other all-ins in the game.
I guess it's because of strong terran cheese/all-in. I have nightmares when thinking of that marine/tank/banshee/raven all-in that Bomber and Clide (?) have used recently in GSL.
On July 14 2011 13:31 RoboBob wrote: I don't think its surprising. Korea has always had a strong Terran tradition dating back to BW. Boxer, Nada, Flash...theres plenty of really talented kids now who choose to play Terran solely because their BW idols played the same. Marineking is a perfect example of that, just think if he chose Protoss or Zerg instead.
Honestly I look at Code S+A and I don't see nearly as many standouts for other races as Terrans.
Terran: Nada, Bomber, SC, MVP, MKP, MMA, Polt, Jinro, Ryung, Top Protoss: MC, Alicia, Huk Zerg: Nestea, Losira, JulyZerg...maybe throw Dongragu in there too.
this is definitely a big factor
but even coming from a Terran the 1/1/1 all in build is absolutely insane the question is ... how can it be patched without effecting the rest of Terran balance ?
That's the biggest problem. If you nerf terran at the start those staple units, marine, tanks etc get weaker than they already are late game. Terran sucks in late game after Zerg or toss gets rolling with instant remaxs and powerful units like HTs, infestors etc kick in. I don't know how to fix it. Zerg and toss just maybe need better strats and some time. Game is young.
ladder will never be a good thing to draw balance conclusions from, not even tournaments are that good.
what's important is HOW the races are winning the games they are winning. Terran is basically the ideal ladder race though. Probably the most adept at stopping cheeses/ all ins which the majority of players use on all servers.
Also the one thing i'd note on the ladder in korea, is that terrans haven't just been on top for the past week, they've been there for almost the entire season.
On July 14 2011 11:30 slicknav wrote: terrans benefit immensely from multitasking, such as for multiple drop's while pushing out with main army, which requires insane APM and control. Koreans are known to be good with such things.
Beat me to it.
But honestly, I don't think the top KR pros concentrate too much on ladder anyways.
Puzzle and Tassadar have yet to prove themselves (altho I do think Puzzle's got what it takes). Inca is only good in one matchup and decent at his PvT. Doesn't make him a top level Protoss. Sage too has so far only dominated one (admittedly impressive) GSTL match, which is sick but I wouldn't give him too much credit yet. Agreed on Leenock, what on earth has viOlet done to impress you? And Zenio and line? They're ok... Not the kinda guys people really fear like they do all the other players mentioned.
I think that original list is pretty solid in terms of representing the proven best of each race, (altho I dunno if I'd have Jinro in there these days, sorry Jinro).
maps favor terran - DELTA QUADRANT - no comment - meta + temple close spots/ close by air - no comment we all saw mc owned by puma 2 games cause of close by air -SLAG PITS - L O L -scrap station - impossible pvt to get more than 2 base ( maybe if the terran is afk? or doesnt make air ) - backwater gulch - what????? what is this map? - xel naga with the epic gold location ! so maybeeee if blizz decides to fix the maps then we can have not only terrans but they dont care since delta and scrap are on ladder since release apparently they like cheese
On July 14 2011 13:20 Sky0 wrote: or how about Ladder really doesnt mean that much. What really matters is code s, code a, code b, and other tournaments like dreamhack, mlg, ign proleague, NASL. Ladder is not a great source for balance statistics imo.
code b is the korean GM ladder but ur very much right, people take the ladder positions to seriously
On July 14 2011 13:31 Skullflower wrote: Replace Fenix with Happy. I don't think Fenix is on the same level as them.
Replace someone with results with someone that doesn't have results who has a marine micro video.
Yeah, that makes sense. Fucking Happy fanboys on this forum. Wait until he does something at a LAN, he was extremely unimpressive at Dreamhack with Goody-esque macro.
Speaking of Goody-esque macro, I saw Puma had 5 SCVs queued on his cc's against MC on crevasse.
Anyway, Happy is on another level than Fenix. It's like comparing EU to US.
On July 14 2011 13:31 Skullflower wrote: Replace Fenix with Happy. I don't think Fenix is on the same level as them.
Replace someone with results with someone that doesn't have results who has a marine micro video.
Yeah, that makes sense. Fucking Happy fanboys on this forum. Wait until he does something at a LAN, he was extremely unimpressive at Dreamhack with Goody-esque macro.
Speaking of Goody-esque macro, I saw Puma had 5 SCVs queued on his cc's against MC on crevasse.
Anyway, Happy is on another level than Fenix. It's like comparing EU to US.
lots of koreans queue scvs, but they don't queue 5 siege tanks.
On July 14 2011 13:31 Skullflower wrote: Replace Fenix with Happy. I don't think Fenix is on the same level as them.
Replace someone with results with someone that doesn't have results who has a marine micro video.
Yeah, that makes sense. Fucking Happy fanboys on this forum. Wait until he does something at a LAN, he was extremely unimpressive at Dreamhack with Goody-esque macro.
Speaking of Goody-esque macro, I saw Puma had 5 SCVs queued on his cc's against MC on crevasse.
Anyway, Happy is on another level than Fenix. It's like comparing EU to US.
lots of koreans queue scvs, but they don't queue 5 siege tanks.
I think I saw NaDa queuing five marines on a rax recently. Granted, he was in a bit of a tight position and might have panicked. (And, of course, marines aren't siege tanks. )
On July 14 2011 13:31 Skullflower wrote: Replace Fenix with Happy. I don't think Fenix is on the same level as them.
Replace someone with results with someone that doesn't have results who has a marine micro video.
Yeah, that makes sense. Fucking Happy fanboys on this forum. Wait until he does something at a LAN, he was extremely unimpressive at Dreamhack with Goody-esque macro.
Speaking of Goody-esque macro, I saw Puma had 5 SCVs queued on his cc's against MC on crevasse.
Anyway, Happy is on another level than Fenix. It's like comparing EU to US.
lots of koreans queue scvs, but they don't queue 5 siege tanks.
ESCGoOdy doesnt do that anymore. I havent seen him queue more than like 3 tanks per factory in a while and I have seen his apm go above 100!
His macro management has gotten better, actually. He 3-2'ed mouzMaNa yesterday even though MaNa played very cleverly against his mech.
On July 14 2011 13:31 Skullflower wrote: Replace Fenix with Happy. I don't think Fenix is on the same level as them.
Replace someone with results with someone that doesn't have results who has a marine micro video.
Yeah, that makes sense. Fucking Happy fanboys on this forum. Wait until he does something at a LAN, he was extremely unimpressive at Dreamhack with Goody-esque macro.
Speaking of Goody-esque macro, I saw Puma had 5 SCVs queued on his cc's against MC on crevasse.
Anyway, Happy is on another level than Fenix. It's like comparing EU to US.
lots of koreans queue scvs, but they don't queue 5 siege tanks.
I think I saw NaDa queuing five marines on a rax recently. Granted, he was in a bit of a tight position and might have panicked. (And, of course, marines aren't siege tanks. )
It's so wierd. They're supposed to be progamers, but they make so many mistakes.
In my point of view it appears as if the koreans have a greater understanding of just terran and the least of zerg. There are not as many zergs in the GSL as I'd like and there are alot of terrans.
Close positions a lot of the ladder maps automatically favours the terran vP and vZ. Add it to the fact that terran is EXTREMELY resilient to cheese at the higher(st) levels (see marineking vs Ace, proxy 2gate inbase and MKP goes 1rax CC and holds fairly well).
I'm not going to discuss race balance, but close positions favours terran, and terran is quite cheese-proof, which leads to a strong laddering race against random opponents doing varying strats. One thing is for sure though, T does not suffer from as many BO losses as P and Z do, which also makes them a stronger ladder race.
Korean ladder (at least, top 20 GM) will always depend on who's actually focusing/putting effort into ladder at that point in time. I think it's a bit silly to try and make any conclusions from it.
But the ladder is kind of flawed aswell considering that there are some pretty bad maps (slag pits, delta quadrant etc.etc.) and that you can still spawn close.
Seeing how only the Korean server is "imbalanced" for top player races on ladder, maps arent an issue. Remember, all the maps are the same...
Terrans have strong multi-harass abilities, strong early-mid round pushes, and strong all-in pushes.
By definition, this is the Korean servers play-style. It simply just fits them more than NA and EU. NA and EU lean to macro games, where unit composition means more than strategic maneuvers. *Im speaking on behalf of Ladder players, not top-end pro players. Many korean pro gamers do not ladder often (maybe this also plays into the imbalance?).
Yeah I think I have to agree. I mean you can't quiet compare korean terrans to our terrans in EU/NA. In Korea they are just crazy fast and use the terran dynamic (stim..) very good. They have a perfect stutterstep, very good multitasking (as in they drop you and stutter step both their main- and droparmies.. thats why u c so few (if at all) koreans who go mech, coz mech is too slow for them lol. Anyhow I struggle very much with terran stimdrops and army at the front as well... and I've seen so many good Z and P players losing to drops (i mean drop 6 stim marines run them to the mineral line and you kill at least 12 drones.. if not way more... and Koreans i bet you can do that in different locations simultaneously so yea, no wonder that >15 terrans are in the top 20 in korea
On July 14 2011 11:26 Elementsu wrote: Terran is a good race for ladder, very resilient to cheese, has a figured out mirror and ladder has these close positions which really favor terran. Seems like Koreans know how to play abusive terran very well.
This pretty much sums it up. It feels like the game really favors terrans. So much metagame-volatility right now.
On July 14 2011 11:26 Elementsu wrote: Terran is a good race for ladder, very resilient to cheese, has a figured out mirror and ladder has these close positions which really favor terran. Seems like Koreans know how to play abusive terran very well.
I think it's exactly that, especially the Map-problem. Many ppl nowadays think because of Tournament-results, that for example TvZ is kinda balanced and maybe even favours Zerg, but on the Ladder, it's another Story. Take for example Metalopolis, as Zerg, you have a 33% chance to get close-positions, which is almost unwinnable, then, you have close-air, which gives Terran a very strong push-option with Tanks thanks to a rather short rush-distance and the ability to siege the Zergs main whilst pushing towards his natural. So in TvZ, you have 66% chance to get unfavourable positions against Terran.
Also, there are much more Macro-Maps with larger rush-distances and even sorta cheese-proof Maps in Tournaments where you can't get walled in at your ramp - this stuff (or the absence of it so to say) really helps Terran to be very strong on the Ladder, to have the possibility to end a Map in a short amount of time without any drawback if the rush doesn't work.
Playing T on the Ladder must be heavenly. ^^'
I think that theres a correlation between the Mappool and the Korean Terrans, more so than with Terrans from EU and NA, because and this has often been said by various Pro's - Korean Terrans are better at rushing-strat's like 2-rax openers etc.
Weird. My best guess is that there is a higher skill ceiling for Terran, that there area disproportionately high number of pro Korean Terrans, that Korean Terran playing is a more advanced state of development (which would go along well with the second), or a combination of the above. The NA and EU stats are surprisingly even.
Terran is the race "to be" right now in Korea, or has been for a while. Even MC and Bomber stated it in their interviews I believe, a very strong race. And on ladder you can get really far with those kind of 1-1-1 all-in pushes, if you can execute them well.
Look at GSTL also, today TSL will play against SlayerS. Those team consist of almost only Terrans, gonna be a TvT fest.
On July 14 2011 15:35 Novalisk wrote: Terran has the strongest cheese currently, so getting ladder points is easier than with other races.
That's what it is, currently. Cheese doesn't win you tournaments.
Cheese dont win you tournaments? This is so wrong. Naniwa has won severly week cups back in the day were he only 4 gated, like literally one build won him one of those ZOTAC cups. Just because it was so strong back then. I believe now Terran can use perhaps against Z those 2 rax and against P those 1-1-1 builds.
All korean progamers even terrans blame the terran domination on ladder due to maps. That and the 1/1/1 all-in push which is the 2nd or 3rd most popular build for TvP on KR server.
Also Koreans takes laddering VERY seriously. Only time they don't ladder is when they have a televised match and instead just play customs. Some teams kick you out if you don't maintain a good enough rank on grandmasters.
On July 14 2011 15:56 b_unnies wrote: Also Koreans takes laddering VERY seriously. Only time they don't ladder is when they have a televised match and instead just play customs. Some teams kick you out if you don't maintain a good enough rank on grandmasters.
That's interesting. I remember hearing about NesTea particularly, and how nothing he did on the ladder could be trusted as preparation, because he just cheesed and played for lulz.
On July 14 2011 15:56 b_unnies wrote: Also Koreans takes laddering VERY seriously. Only time they don't ladder is when they have a televised match and instead just play customs. Some teams kick you out if you don't maintain a good enough rank on grandmasters.
That's interesting. I remember hearing about NesTea particularly, and how nothing he did on the ladder could be trusted as preparation, because he just cheesed and played for lulz.
He even said (in one of his interviews iirc) he doesn't play properly on the ladder and uses it to try weird builds out and stuff, not to win but to explore, which is really cool!
Yep, Terrans have dominated the Korean GM Ladder forever now, probably because a good chunk of them also played Terran in BW, but also I think the Terran race is a little op, with close positions and all.
On July 14 2011 15:56 b_unnies wrote: Also Koreans takes laddering VERY seriously. Only time they don't ladder is when they have a televised match and instead just play customs. Some teams kick you out if you don't maintain a good enough rank on grandmasters.
That's interesting. I remember hearing about NesTea particularly, and how nothing he did on the ladder could be trusted as preparation, because he just cheesed and played for lulz.
That's what I said. They don't use ladder to practice for televised matches
A lot of people play a race because of what matches they see (typically players from their own region). In NA, most newbies have seen Idra, Huk, Destiny, etc...There aren't many good NA terrans, hence the abundance of Z/P in NA.
EU is more balanced because there are solid T/P/Z's all arorund.
KR obviously have idols like Boxer and Flash that surely influenced many koreans to play terran.
Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
For me this result is actually quite easy to explain:
As many have said, certain maps/positions are strongly favoured towards terran. Now, since Korean players have always been one step above the western scene, this shows more clearly on their ladder. To put this in other words - in NA/EU the pure skill of, say, players like WhiteRa can overcome map-specific imbalance, while on Korea this isn't possible anymore because the terrans are ALSO playing their all-ins near perfection.
Since tournaments are generally much more racially balanced, it simply shows that Blizzard should rethink their standpoint about small ladder-maps (actually, they are doing that right now, if we think about the recent interview of David Kim...)
1) Korea has way more good terrans than the other races.
2) Ladder maps have close spawns LOL
3) The good players of the other races are not laddering as much. Wheres MC, Puzzle, Hero? Wheres Dongraegu, Losira, Nestea? Meanwhile we have MKP, MVP etc all laddering hard.
EDIT: Actually MC has climbed a lot since I last checked, he ll be top 20 soon.
I think it's a good reason why the GSL is run by GOMTvT!
Nah, in all seriousness... Korean Terrans seem to have it way more sorted out than we do. I mean, if I had the choice between going with a race that no one knows how to use, or one that everyone's been figuring out... I'm gonna go with the easy wins....
On July 14 2011 11:30 slicknav wrote: terrans benefit immensely from multitasking, such as for multiple drop's while pushing out with main army, which requires insane APM and control. Koreans are known to be good with such things.
Beat me to it.
But honestly, I don't think the top KR pros concentrate too much on ladder anyways.
On July 14 2011 13:31 RoboBob wrote: Honestly I look at Code S+A and I don't see nearly as many standouts for other races as Terrans.
Terran: Nada, Bomber, SC, MVP, MKP, MMA, Polt, Jinro, Ryung, Top Protoss: MC, Alicia, Huk Zerg: Nestea, Losira, JulyZerg...maybe throw Dongragu in there too.
Puzzle and Tassadar have yet to prove themselves (altho I do think Puzzle's got what it takes). Inca is only good in one matchup and decent at his PvT. Doesn't make him a top level Protoss. Sage too has so far only dominated one (admittedly impressive) GSTL match, which is sick but I wouldn't give him too much credit yet. Agreed on Leenock, what on earth has viOlet done to impress you? And Zenio and line? They're ok... Not the kinda guys people really fear like they do all the other players mentioned.
I think that original list is pretty solid in terms of representing the proven best of each race, (altho I dunno if I'd have Jinro in there these days, sorry Jinro).
Well, right now they looks like standouts to me, probably not at the same level as the P/Z's you listed, but I don't think Jinro, Ryung, MMA, Polt are of the same level as Bomber, MVP, sC. Can't really use something subjective like this to prove a point.
On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
I think the fact that the Korean pro scene has a relatively large number of Terrans at the moment combined with the number of smurfs some of those guys have explains a lot of this. I wouldn't be surprised if the Korean GM top 10 is just MKP.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
1/1/1 all-ins are pretty bullshit
The two Protoss on the top aren't really the best Protoss either, I doubt anyone would consider them better than Sage,
Puzzle or MC. Though in a general sense, Terran does seem to be the strongest race right now, at least in Korea. Quite the opposite in EU/NA. Almost 50% of the Top 100 is Terran in Korea
I hate that and the 2 and 3rax all ins. Problem is no way to fix it without making terran late game weaker than it already is. What can you do? make marines or tanks slower to come out? disaster for mid - late balance,
what is the point of points like this? protoss all ins aren't strong or difficult to stop? of course they are. 2 base roach bane timings or 2 base baneling aggression can't be incredibly hard to deal with as well? of course it can.
The Koreans know how to use terrans. It annoys me so much when I see a terran play and they don't abuse drops and harass in general. The whole race is based on easy harass tactics, and Koreans (for the most part) are the only ones who see this...
On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
i didn't say the NA/EU Zergs/Protoss are better than the Terrans. It's just that they don't have the skill/strategies to beat them, they can't play the race to his fullest. And no i'm not whinning about Terrans in Korea, they dominate because they have the better players. i'm a zerg and the only good Zerg players for me are Nestea/Losira/DRG, other Zergs aren't good enough, even if i'm always cheering for them.
And yeah if Terrans are doing so bad in the foreign scene it's because they are not good enough to play their race at his full potential (mainly lack of mechanics and lack of good game plan imho). You think someone like Nerchio will dominate in Korea? I don't think so, but he dominate every Terran in Europe without a problem, why? because Zerg is imba? No. Same for Naniwa you think he dominate the EU scene because Protoss is imba? No, but will he dominate Korea? No because Terrans in Korea are on another level.
On July 14 2011 18:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: 1) Korea has way more good terrans than the other races.
2) Ladder maps have close spawns LOL
3) The good players of the other races are not laddering as much. Wheres MC, Puzzle, Hero? Wheres Dongraegu, Losira, Nestea? Meanwhile we have MKP, MVP etc all laddering hard.
EDIT: Actually MC has climbed a lot since I last checked, he ll be top 20 soon.
On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
Actually, that doesn't give you a large enough sample size, so that would not work...
On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
Actually, that doesn't give you a large enough sample size, so that would not work...
That is just an example how you can manipulate Top X and adding other continents. Ladder itself isn't the best indicator of balance/race performance due to various reasons.
I remember an interview with scfou where he was talking about his last match with Nestea (the epic one where he got 3-2ed by Nestea) and he was saying how he thought he would win easy since he usually beats Nestea in ladder, but then he played Nestea and this was a completely different Nestea than the one he faced on ladder.
I think Protoss will make a comeback if they start using the Phoenix style like MC does, because it's very strong against drops if you just let them patrol around your undefended points.
Terran is very strong on 1 base till the 8 minute mark. And they are more or less unscoutable up to that point. They have by far the most harassment options in the game. They can go 2-3 rax. They can go reactored hellions. Cloaked Banshees. Early dropships. These have the potential to be virtually game ending when you consider that 2/3 of the ladder games they play are close position or close by air. The other two races just have to sit in their bases. Not to mention, Blizz gave zerg macro mechanics that cannot respond fast enough for close position aggression.
Let's face it. Terran is the only well-designed race in the game. Probably they should just remove the other two races. I'm tired of watching casts and just seeing players sit in their base for 11 minutes because they have no other options.
Terran is the best race, so this isn't particularly surprising.
For the record, the game is probably quite balanced. Still, Terran is by far the most robust race, easiest to be consistent with, and the best at utilizing superior mechanics and multitasking to secure advantages in actual games.
On July 14 2011 22:29 wklbishop wrote: I remember an interview with scfou where he was talking about his last match with Nestea (the epic one where he got 3-2ed by Nestea) and he was saying how he thought he would win easy since he usually beats Nestea in ladder, but then he played Nestea and this was a completely different Nestea than the one he faced on ladder.
Actually I read an interview after a gsl game I think from nestea that he messes about on ladder, tries new things and just totally misleads opponents. He doesnt take ladder serious at all!
Thinkit was somewhere on this site if ive read it.
ladder maps favor terran the most, and terrans are currently dominating in the current styles of all terran-involved match ups in korea, so obviously they would have the most ladder spots.
there's also just so much development for terrans from so many different players that they are way ahead. i felt that there were more good terrans even in the beta. for the korean scene it started to really blow up with marineking and mvp it's only gotten more ridiculous with all the players from slayers owning up GSTL and other individuals representing their own teams very well
On July 14 2011 11:46 xlava wrote: Its a matter of development. The Korean Terrans are more developed than the World's. I don't remember who said it but its like that for Terrans in Korea and similarly the American Protoss are more developed. While the Zergs are stuck somewhere in between.
Sorry if its already been said but the reason is simply that so many of the broodwar idols that these players emulated when starting gaming played Terran. It is by far the most played race on the Korean server so if the results were any more 'balanced' then it would be worrying. And again as has no doubt been mentioned the small maps favour terran a bit atm. sCfOu has been #1 on the KR server more than anyone else by a long long way and every 2nd game he does an all-in
On July 14 2011 22:34 jdsowa wrote: Terran is very strong on 1 base till the 8 minute mark. And they are more or less unscoutable up to that point. They have by far the most harassment options in the game. They can go 2-3 rax. They can go reactored hellions. Cloaked Banshees. Early dropships. These have the potential to be virtually game ending when you consider that 2/3 of the ladder games they play are close position or close by air. The other two races just have to sit in their bases. Not to mention, Blizz gave zerg macro mechanics that cannot respond fast enough for close position aggression.
Let's face it. Terran is the only well-designed race in the game. Probably they should just remove the other two races. I'm tired of watching casts and just seeing players sit in their base for 11 minutes because they have no other options.
I'm pretty sure I know your league and what race you are playing lol.
1) The Blizzard ladder highly favors Terran, the fact that Terran dominates the ladder so hard is kind of expected, the more surprising thing in my opinion is that the races are so even in NA/EU. That's mostly insulting to NA/EU Terrans on the ladder, they're actually performing worse than expected IMO.
2) Korean Terrans are just better. This has a couple things adding in to it. You can argue that Terran is OP or not currently, but you can't argue that they weren't OP at release and for several months after release, that's a fact. Top-level competitive players are going to lean on the strongest race in the game, and Terrans have been that and, at worst, remain competitive in the current balance of the game. I have yet to see any reason for Terran players to switch away from the race other than boredom, it's still the race with the best ability to dictate matches, apply pressure in multiple areas simultaneously, turtle up in a bad situation, and make epic comebacks. If nothing else, the obscene amount of options available to top-level Terran players will keep them competitive for quite a long time.
3) Korean Zergs and Protoss are lacking in general. I can name 8-10 different Korean Terran players capable of playing a perfect game against any other top-level opponent, let's not even talk about tier 2 Terrans, that would take us all the way through Code A. The only perfect Zerg I can name consistently is Nestea, DRG and Losira are good, but they're definitely on the next tier down, and no other Zerg is really worth speaking of IMO. Protoss is a little better, but your list of players is still quite short. MC/Huk at the top with a slew of maybe 5 players on that second tier. Looking at it this way, it's a simple numbers game. Not everybody is going to ladder, but when you have such a huge discrepancy of top talent, you end up with lop-sided ladder results as well.
I'm sure there's other things going in to it, but I'm out of steam right now.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
Remmember to that not every Korean pro plays a lot on ladder , they just focus to pratcice whit team or friends. Same thing is for example at EU GM , there are many good unknow players .. that are higher then pro players , but we dont see them onany turnaments , and these dont mean they are beeter then these pros
IMO ladder is just ladder , you cant start balance discusion looking at ladder , because many pros , just dont play ladder.
This situation was in Europe with only terrans on top of the ladder, and Blizzard said there are no good zergs in Europe, but korean zergs are very good :D Now there are so many good european zergs and all korean zergs suck xd
it may just be possible that koreans like playing terran more than the other 2 races? i saw that the other day and thought it was pretty crazy. but i still dont consider the game to be imba or anything but who knows
On July 15 2011 00:11 BigJoe wrote: it may just be possible that koreans like playing terran more than the other 2 races? i saw that the other day and thought it was pretty crazy. but i still dont consider the game to be imba or anything but who knows
That's only recent. Used to be Protoss was #1 played then Zerg, then Terran last at grandmaster in Korea.
Terran still dominated ladder then. I wonder why there are more % of terran player now?
On July 15 2011 00:11 BigJoe wrote: it may just be possible that koreans like playing terran more than the other 2 races? i saw that the other day and thought it was pretty crazy. but i still dont consider the game to be imba or anything but who knows
its reasonable to assume that koreans being better + close spawns on ladder maps (+ blizz being ok with <50 second rush distances) would leave to a higher terran population on the korean ladder because they are able to abuse the timings better.
that being said 20 people per region is still a shit sample
As others pointed out already, I think the main reason is because of the Blizzard Ladder Map Pool. But Ladder is not really meaningful anyways because pro gamers these days most of the time play custom practice games (I am pretty sure at least).
I think balance discussions are really hard at the moment. It seems as if Terran is dominating Korea, but all these major wins look very well deserved to me. The game feels very balanced to me, despite of being volatile at times (PvZ, ZvP).
On July 15 2011 00:11 BigJoe wrote: it may just be possible that koreans like playing terran more than the other 2 races? i saw that the other day and thought it was pretty crazy. but i still dont consider the game to be imba or anything but who knows
That's only recent. Used to be Protoss was #1 played then Zerg, then Terran last at grandmaster in Korea.
Terran still dominated ladder then. I wonder why there are more % of terran player now?
Some pros have switched as well such as byun and others to ride the strong horse.
You mean how he race switched back in NOVEMBER?! The game is much different now. Since about 2 or 3 months after release, the top of the Korean ladder has been dominated by Terrans. GM in Korea has ALWAYS been overpopulated with Terrans. To say otherwise is blatant lies and misinformation.
On July 15 2011 00:11 BigJoe wrote: it may just be possible that koreans like playing terran more than the other 2 races? i saw that the other day and thought it was pretty crazy. but i still dont consider the game to be imba or anything but who knows
That's only recent. Used to be Protoss was #1 played then Zerg, then Terran last at grandmaster in Korea.
Terran still dominated ladder then. I wonder why there are more % of terran player now?
Some pros have switched as well such as byun and others to ride the strong horse.
You mean how he race switched back in NOVEMBER?! The game is much different now. Since about 2 or 3 months after release, the top of the Korean ladder has been dominated by Terrans. GM in Korea has ALWAYS been overpopulated with Terrans. To say otherwise is blatant lies and misinformation.
Only since patch 1.3 this is true. Select older times on link I provided. eg http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/kr/1/all/0/120 Most played protoss at the top, You better check you facts before calling people liars or at least provide contradictory evidence. Furthermore they did not have GM until 1.3.3.
they cheese when they need to and they do it well. I think macro terran is fun and all but you have to do damage early on to stay even or ahead in the macro game. I think Koreans excel at putting early game pressure with stream lined builds and sick micro that allows them success on the ladder. A lot of terrans I play against in NA just sit in their base, mass a 2 base army and push out with tank marine. It's either 2 base timings or silly hellion and/or banshee play which I don't think is nearly as effective as a good marine scv push which comes a lot earlier and is a lot deadlier as the other harass options i mentioned can be dealt with individually where marine/scv makes you say "oh shit".
It's interesting that the Super Tournament top 8 pretty much reflected the top 8 of korean ladder percentage wise. There were 6 terrans in top 8, 75% of top 8 being terran and on ladder the top 20 is 85% terran and as I post, top 8 on ladder is %100 terran!
Although I'm not going to deny Korean Terrans are beasts, these kind of stats are meaningless as we know other pro-players in Korea (like NesTea) chose to play Custom's with their teams over Ladder.
It's the Boxer effect. A disproportionate amount of the most talented players in Korea have always gravitated toward terran ever since the early BW days. It's like the NBA. Point guard and center are still arguably the most important positions but a huge amount of the top players are shooting guards/smalls forwards trying to be like Mike.
This type of thread again? Answer is super simple : most of the ladder maps favor terran : 90% of time close position TvX favors terran (10% are that you can somehow die to weird all-ins), close by air / cross are more or less balanced. Some "bad" maps like the new added (sry dunno the english name, every new ladder map except shattered temple and maybe typhoon peaks) are terran favored. Put one terran against say a zerg (and to a lesser extent against a protoss) on bo7 ladder maps, then bo7 on GSL maps. The outcome will be a lot different lol. And basically if I recall correctly only taldarim altar, xelnaga cavern and metalopolis are ladder maps still used in the GSL, so ladder training is not needed for most of the korean pro players. Except that when you are terran mass ladder / games is very usefull because it'll still improve mechanics, whereas for other races not that much so they don't really need to ladder, they probably practice more on GSL maps in custom games. Oh and yeah it's part of the ladder maps but agressive terrans can win you games : I mean TheBestfOu is very well ranked and is still seen as "terrible" (but his agressive/allin play can win him a lot of games as seen in GSL ST), you can't really know how people play on ladder, which maps they veto to "virtually increase their rankings" if they all-in a lot for example. Last point : ladder will be ladder, lol. Just look at EU rankings, they are all close in points, and every top 50 player in europe can be in top 20 ladder if they ladder a lot, whereas the "best" players of their races are not that high on the ladder and still do good in lans (or online cups).
Compare Foreign Zergs to Non Nestea zergs. Players like IdrA, Ret and Sheth. They are not far behind the Koreans and if a person was watching them play without their name tags, you wouldn't be able to tell who was the Korean.
Let's compare Naniwa, Socke and HuK to MC, Alicia and Puzzle. Sure you might be able to tell the Korean apart due to their more aggressive approach, and use of a more mobile army, but in all in, the foreigner Protoss looks like he is kinda keeping up with what the Korean is doing.
Now lets compare Thorzain, Kas and Select to Nada, SC, Top, Polt, SuperNoVa, Byun, Happy, Yoda, Marineking, Bomber, MVP, Keen, Puma, MMA, Ryung, Ganzi, TheStC, GuMiho, Hack, Jjakji. Now we are talking. No, I haven't just listed every single Terran, I have listed the most well known Terran players who, in my opinion, are better than nearly every single foreign Terran. Someone like Kyrix imo isn't better than Idra and Sheth, and someone like Inca isn't better than Socke. But these Korean Terrans man, they are absolute monsters, all of them. When I see Inca vs Idra, I see free win for IdrA. When I see Korean Terran vs anyone, I think it can go either way.
I don't think anyone can make a list as long as the Korean Terran list for the other races and hold there hand up and say, "yep, these guys would bust through the open bracket of MLG ezpz."
On July 15 2011 01:01 Zowon wrote: Would be better if you used a bigger sample size...20 players doesn't really give alot of information!
the sample size is fine. definitely cannot expect there to be 90/100 terrans if terran were slightly strong. people are using the top twenty assuming that all of the top players combining all 3 races are granted equal 'skill'. if people are of same skill and the top 20 are almost all terran, the conclusion would be that when players of equal skill compete, the terran has the advantage. this is how imbalance discussion starts. its not perfect but thats what people here are connecting
There always were the most terrans in korea. And i guess most chose terran because they perceived it also the best race. In which relation is open. Maybe they think terran rewards the better mechanical player the most, maybe they have the feel terran is the most robust, or they like the way you can dictate the game.
As seen since the beta korean likes to set the pace off the game, always being active and trying to overpower your opponent. And Terran is the race best suited for it.
On July 15 2011 02:32 Micket wrote: Compare Foreign Zergs to Non Nestea zergs. Players like IdrA, Ret and Sheth. They are not far behind the Koreans and if a person was watching them play without their name tags, you wouldn't be able to tell who was the Korean.
Why do people look at the race first and the players second? That seems so ass backwards. Its not something like "Oh look MVP, MKP, ect. Dominating the ladder" it's always "*Race* dominating the ladder" People act like the players behind the races at the top of the ladder make no difference on how it should look.
Really big percentage of T in Korean league. Not sure what to think of it but I agree with people that T is powerful with 1/1/1 and all sort of all-ins that are often used on the ladder.
1- IMMvp: GSL World Champion 2- ST_Bomber: Needs no further intro 3- ByeolGroom: Some random. 4- FancyMvP: Another random. 5- SlayerS_Taeja: Some random SlayerS terran 6- Tassadar: Code A finalist 7- MarineKingPrime (HaeByeongWang one): Silver King 8- Terran: Well, I don't know who he is, he may be MKP too. 9- Polt: ST winner 10- Raptor: Random 11- Apex: Random. 12- Noblesse 13- sC 14- SlayerS_Lots 15- Jjakji 16- Destination 17- aLive 18- 불곰으로방망이질: Random 19- Sculp 20- TheBest: ROFL 21- GanZi 22- GoonDanWuiJimJang: Random 23- Soultemple: Random 24- Fin: Random 25- IMHappy 26- CheHeomSalHaeHyeonJang: Some random guy with a bunch of replays against select.
Well, I don't know what to say. Comment is up to you.
On July 21 2011 23:47 Djagulingu wrote: According to sc2ranks, top 25 is:
0 Zerg 1 Protoss 24 Terran
Let's look at who those terrans are.
1- IMMvp: GSL World Champion 2- ST_Bomber: Needs no further intro 3- ByeolGroom: Some nobody. 4- FancyMvP: Another nobody. 5- SlayerS_Taeja: Some random SlayerS terran 6- Tassadar: Code A finalist 7- MarineKingPrime (HaeByeongWang one): Silver King 8- Terran: Well, I don't know who he is, he may be MKP too. 9- Polt: ST winner 10- Raptor: Random 11- Apex: Random. 12- Noblesse 13- sC 14- SlayerS_Lots 15- Jjakji 16- Destination 17- aLive 18- 불곰으로방망이질: Random 19- Sculp: Some random guy, may be from Nshs because all his team partners are from NsP clan. 20- TheBest: ROFL 21- GanZi 22- GoonDanWuiJimJang: Random 23- Soultemple: Random 24- Fin: Random 25- IMHappy 26- CheHeomSalHaeHyeonJang: Some random guy with a bunch of replays against select.
Well, I don't know what to say. Comment is up to you.
Ladder maps favor terran. And if players are quite equal skillwise (which is the case especially in Korean GM) the ladder maps can make the deciding difference. Most likely some other reaons factor in as well: "ladder is still ladder", "Many good Korean terrans - look at race distribution in GSL"
I think this phenomenon is mostly the result of zergs choosing to play inhouses due to the bad ladder maps. Terrans like the maps and play them as a break from GSL maps. Zergs like GSL maps and play on them as much as they can.
Terran is only imbalance early game on small maps --- the GSL map pool is great at correcting this problem.
On July 21 2011 23:47 Djagulingu wrote: According to sc2ranks, top 25 is:
0 Zerg 1 Protoss 24 Terran
Let's look at who those terrans are.
1- IMMvp: GSL World Champion 2- ST_Bomber: Needs no further intro 3- ByeolGroom: Some nobody. 4- FancyMvP: Another nobody. 5- SlayerS_Taeja: Some random SlayerS terran 6- Tassadar: Code A finalist 7- MarineKingPrime (HaeByeongWang one): Silver King 8- Terran: Well, I don't know who he is, he may be MKP too. 9- Polt: ST winner 10- Raptor: Random 11- Apex: Random. 12- Noblesse 13- sC 14- SlayerS_Lots 15- Jjakji 16- Destination 17- aLive 18- 불곰으로방망이질: Random 19- Sculp: Some random guy, may be from Nshs because all his team partners are from NsP clan. 20- TheBest: ROFL 21- GanZi 22- GoonDanWuiJimJang: Random 23- Soultemple: Random 24- Fin: Random 25- IMHappy 26- CheHeomSalHaeHyeonJang: Some random guy with a bunch of replays against select.
Well, I don't know what to say. Comment is up to you.
umm... why are you calling them randoms
Cuz he hasn't seem then in GSL they must be NOBODIEEES!
On July 21 2011 23:47 Djagulingu wrote: According to sc2ranks, top 25 is:
0 Zerg 1 Protoss 24 Terran
Let's look at who those terrans are.
1- IMMvp: GSL World Champion 2- ST_Bomber: Needs no further intro 3- ByeolGroom: Some nobody. 4- FancyMvP: Another nobody. 5- SlayerS_Taeja: Some random SlayerS terran 6- Tassadar: Code A finalist 7- MarineKingPrime (HaeByeongWang one): Silver King 8- Terran: Well, I don't know who he is, he may be MKP too. 9- Polt: ST winner 10- Raptor: Random 11- Apex: Random. 12- Noblesse 13- sC 14- SlayerS_Lots 15- Jjakji 16- Destination 17- aLive 18- 불곰으로방망이질: Random 19- Sculp: Some random guy, may be from Nshs because all his team partners are from NsP clan. 20- TheBest: ROFL 21- GanZi 22- GoonDanWuiJimJang: Random 23- Soultemple: Random 24- Fin: Random 25- IMHappy 26- CheHeomSalHaeHyeonJang: Some random guy with a bunch of replays against select.
Well, I don't know what to say. Comment is up to you.
umm... why are you calling them randoms
Cuz he hasn't seem then in GSL they must be NOBODIEEES!
Because I don't know any team afilliations for the guys I called "random". Btw, I am pretty sure that FancyMvP has a team, but I don't know which team it is. One of Bomber's akas is Fancy, but I sincerely don't think that he is from MvP clan.