*Before you read this, I just want to point out one thing. You may think SC2 is doing just fine online (and it really is). But being on television can't hurt us. Even if it is a colossal failure, it won't destroy the online community. But if it is done right, the potential for growth is enormous. SC2 on television means millions of dollars being pumped into this industry. If we have to "sell out" to succeed on television, it is worth it.
I should also add, yes I went to an extreme with some of this. I don't actually think Artosis being on TV would hurt the show. I just don't think he is the best person for it. Some of the writing below is exaggerated.*
With all this talk about Starcraft 2 on ESPN, I decided to write up a little piece about what I think needs to happen in order to make this a success. Before we begin, I want to make one thing clear: the entire purpose of hitting television is for the mainstream audience. The broadcasters should not be catering to the avid Starcraft/e-sports fan. They need to do whatever they can to get everyone else to watch. If that means our experience suffers, so be it. If you (anyone reading this article) don’t watch Starcraft when it’s on TV, you are actually hurting e-sports. They don’t need to consider our needs. The rest of this article will be based on this premise. A lot of what I say you won't agree with. Some of it is controversial and some of us may hate the show it portrays. This is just what I think needs to be done to hit the right audience.
We need to consider what audience the show needs to try and capture. We don’t want to appeal to everyone. We want to appeal to a very specific subsection of the population. For e-sports, the obvious one is the 18-24 demographic. The college kids that need something to do on a Saturday afternoon. The frat boys that need something to watch while having a beer. You want to hit this demographic hard. This is the demographic that has made Poker, UFC and WWE wildly successful. Anyone else you attract is gravy.
Challenges to Mainstream
Commercial Breaks
The biggest problem is Starcraft 2 games aren’t a format that fits well with television. Games can be anywhere from five minutes to an hour. It makes scheduling commercial breaks next to impossible. I’ve spent a bit of time thinking about this and do have a solution. But I have no idea whether it is realistically possible to implement.
Let’s suppose a game is being played. 15 minutes in, the game looks like it won’t end any time soon. Both player are macroing and have no intention to get aggressive. You need to go to commercials but you don’t want to miss anything? Simple solution: go to commercials while the game continues. When the commercials end, resume where the cast left off. In other words, you’re not live anymore. The casters simply have to say "We'll be right back after this commercial break" pause for a few seconds and say "And we're back" and pretend nothing happened. You’re broadcasting something that happened a few minutes ago. It doesn’t interrupt the games and casters. It still lets you get your commercial breaks while running the games more or less live. When the game ends (in real life), the casters/players simply need to wait until it ends and the broadcast can go live again. In those few minutes, you can prepare instant replays, post-game analysis, make sure the next players are ready… whatever. It makes everything just a tad bit easier when you do this.
Legitimizing the Sport
To attract a mainstream audience, you need to ensure a few things.
The broadcast needs to be noob friendly. Cut the analysis out during the game. The casters should be explaining the absolute basics and building hype with play-by-play analysis. Doing anything else is detrimental. You're making a show for people that have never seen SC2 before.
This is a sport. We want it perceived as one. In any sport, you see humans pushing limits. Starcraft is no different. Viewers need to see this:
That is impressive. And that’s the sort of thing you can’t convey without actually showing someones keyboard on screen. Grubby has it right:
This is exactly what we need to see on screen. We need to see the concentration in his eyes. We need to see the speed of his hands. You show that LosirA video to anyone and they are impressed.
I gotta hand it to IPL3. They actually did have most of this. I actually really enjoyed the clicking noises from player keyboards. But what were they missing? This:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbGPNdrRjxU
Ok, fine, I know, we won’t ever get that. But we could get this:
Hearing “Huk! Huk! Huk!” during MLG last night gave me nerdchills. A couple of months ago I would have thought it was impossible to get people to come out for this. But after seeing this video, it certainly shouldn’t be hard to fill an audience:
We need a huge crowd for any televised match. Hell, make it free to guarantee an audience and then charge up the ass for food/drinks (like a movie theatre). Just make sure there is a roaring crowd. IPL3 felt a little lackluster because they were missing this. We also need the right people in charge of the show.
Personalities
So who needs to be involved in this show? Well if you watch any “sports” that appeal to this demographic, you’ll notice there is always a female host. At UFC it’s the girls walking around the ring with the round numbers. In poker it is Shana Hiatt. These sorts of sports need a female ambassador. For SC2, that is obviously Anna Prosser. She needs to be involved to show the world this isn’t just a sport for nerdy basement dwellers. I mean, if a professional Starcraft player could date her, why can’t you? Women being heavily invested in e-sports are essential. So which Anna should show up? Not this one:
Way too classy. That’s not what we are trying to portray. She needs to be the ultimate girl next door; someone professional yet down to earth. Maybe even borderline slutty. But definitely not dressed up in an evening gown. That’s not the casual, fun, relaxed environment we want to portray. The other important decision is casters.
Not this guy. Sorry. I love Artosis. He is the definition of a nerd baller. I could listen to him talk about random shit all day. But not him. We don’t want to be perceived as mega nerds. We want the audience (again, primarily random college kids) to be able to relate to the personalities. Artosis just doesn’t fit that mold.
One of these two has to be there. So what are the advantages of each? Day[9] is ridiculously noob friendly. He can explain a SC2 concept to anyone. And SC2 on TV (at least at the beginning) needs to be absurdly noob friendly. It needs to be almost repulsive to the diehard SC2 fans. Throw analysis out the window (sorry Artosis). We need everyone to understand what’s going on. The biggest problem with day[9] is that he is a bit of a nerd. He isn’t the ultimate bro.
This guy is. Doesn’t it seem like he fits the frat boy mold perfectly? In my opinion, the best casters would be day[9] + tasteless. But if that can’t happen, then I’d rather see Tasteless there than day[9]. Tasteless is extremely knowledgeable about this game. He knows enough to explain what’s happening to the casual observer and provide thoughtful analysis.
Can we fit Artosis back in? Absolutely. In any sport, you have short breaks in between games. That’s where Artosis pops back in. These breaks typically involve in-depth analysis on what happened in the previous game. Artosis needs to pop in between games and discuss the specifics in terms of strategy. He needs to be seen as the ultimate expert on the subject. But he shouldn’t be the face of e-sports.
That just leaves the players. As much as some of you may hate him, this guy needs to be involved:
You may hate him, but it’s because you’re jelly. A powerlifting, professional Starcraft 2 player with a beauty pageant girlfriend that gets to travel all over the world? Hell yea I’m jelly. He’s living the dream we’ve all dreamt at some point.
Finally, the last element we need is rivalries. We need to get to know the players. We need to hate some of them (Lebron) and love others (Nash, Dwight). This can be done through in-depth player interviews. NASL had it right when they tried to force rivalries. Except that doesn’t work on a Starcraft community that only cares about the matches. We don’t care about rivalries (as much). But a casual, mainstream viewer certainly does.
Format of Programs/Scheduling
So what tournament format suits television the most? Personally, I think it is a winner’s league team league. 1v1 matches are boring because you can’t hit those epic rivalries. You don’t get as much trash talk like you do in the GSTL. You don’t get the sense of team spirit and camaraderie. I mean 1v1 can work, I just think team formats are much easier to make work.
When should matches be broadcast? Saturday late-afternoons/early-evenings. Sunday to Thursday evenings you can’t compete with regular sports and primetime television. Friday and Saturday night all the college kids are out grabbing a drink. Sunday afternoons you’re competing with football (lol good luck). This leaves Saturday (and Sundays if football season is over). When I was in College, the only time I would have had free to get together with my buddies and watch Starcraft is on Saturdays/Sundays. Don’t have to study, don’t have anything else to watch, sitting around at wondering what to do… these days are perfect. The other option is really late at night (like overnight poker). But that would obviously just be rebroadcasts and not anything live.
TL;DR Summary
Appeal to the College crowd. Cater to their needs by making it noob friendly. Legitimize the sport with crowds and keyboard cameras. Make sure you have the right personalities to hit this audience. Schedule it based on the availability of your audience. Never forget your audience is 18-24 year olds that have free time in between drinking, class and regular sports. Personally I think there is a good chance this can succeed. I’d rather watch Starcraft 2 online but if putting it on TV will help it grow, so be it. Starcraft is extremely similar to Poker and Poker has obviously been a huge success. So if done right, there is no reason Starcraft shouldn’t be one. IPL3 was almost done right from a broadcasting standpoint. MLG was strong points as well. But small tweaks to both can make a show that is marketable to everyone.
Images shamelessly stolen from: Grubby's stream, Leah Jackson's Twitter, readmore.de, mymym, teamliquid.net and sk-gaming.com. If any of the aforementioned has a problem with me using their images, I will certainly remove them.
Poll: What you tune in if the above changes were made?
Yes, I love some of these changes. (22)
42%
No, I don't want to watch SC2 on TV... online is where it's at. (14)
26%
Yes, but only because I want it to succeed (E-sports!!) (9)
17%
Yes, I'm neutral about the changes. SC2 on TV! (6)
11%
Maybe, it depends on who is playing and what tournament is on (1)
2%
No, I hate the changes. Screw this bullshit. (1)
2%
53 total votes
Your vote: What you tune in if the above changes were made?
(Vote): Yes, I love some of these changes. (Vote): Yes, I'm neutral about the changes. SC2 on TV! (Vote): Yes, but only because I want it to succeed (E-sports!!) (Vote): Maybe, it depends on who is playing and what tournament is on (Vote): No, I hate the changes. Screw this bullshit. (Vote): No, I don't want to watch SC2 on TV... online is where it's at.
Poll: Which of the changes do you hate the most?
I'm perfectly fine with all the proposed changes. (18)
40%
Artosis is perfect as a caster. Don't need to have him just as an expert between games. (12)
27%
Noob friendly. I don't want this any more noob friendly than your typical cast. (11)
24%
Anna/female hosts aren't necessary. Don't need to have any sex appeal. (3)
7%
No need for a huge audience. A small studio like the GSL is fine. (1)
2%
Don't want to see player hands/webcams. (0)
0%
Anna isn't too classy. No need to change anything there. (0)
0%
45 total votes
Your vote: Which of the changes do you hate the most?
(Vote): Noob friendly. I don't want this any more noob friendly than your typical cast. (Vote): Don't want to see player hands/webcams. (Vote): No need for a huge audience. A small studio like the GSL is fine. (Vote): Anna/female hosts aren't necessary. Don't need to have any sex appeal. (Vote): Anna isn't too classy. No need to change anything there. (Vote): Artosis is perfect as a caster. Don't need to have him just as an expert between games. (Vote): I'm perfectly fine with all the proposed changes.
Responding to Criticism
Artosis I never said Artosis shouldn't be involved. I simply said he shouldn't be a caster. If you read the entire post, you'd see I'm advocating Artosis being an expert of sorts. Someone that comes on between games to provide in-depth analysis on what happened in the previous game. Sort of like a half-time show where the commentators breakdown the game and go into the specifics. This adds a ton of production value as well (replays of previous action etc.). Why won't he be a good caster? Anyone that watches the GSL knows Artosis tends to go off on nerdy rants. He'll spend 5 minutes talking about some video game from the early 90s that the late 90s/2000s generation has no idea about. I love it (because I can relate to what he's saying). But most people can't. A mainstream audience can't. And so he just doesn't belong as a caster.
Target Audience You HAVE to market for a mainstream audience. If we are putting Starcraft on television, marketing to the hardcore audience is pointless. The hardcore audience is already watching. Why the hell are we wasting time on TV? The point of going to TV is to attract a much larger/broader audience. You do that by catering to the audience you want to attract (mainstream < 24 audience).
Noob Friendly You have to be noob friendly. Coincidentally, the perfect example came up last night. Joe Rogan does a podcast (and random shit). They happened to discuss Starcraft 2 last night (starts at the 41:20 mark for anyone that wants to watch). So immediately, as soon as one of the other members of the podcast started talking details about it, Joe Rogan completely lost interest. He didn't understand what he was talking about. And frankly, he didn't give a shit anymore. This is why you need to start noob friendly. You can progress to more in-depth shows as you start to collect the audience, but at the start it has to be noob friendly. I'm talking about noob friendly like Husky's casts were about a year ago. I don't mean just ignoring what's going on in game.
Sexualization I get that some of you were offended by my desire to adding some sexuality to it (by saying Anna should be borderline slutty). I said borderline, not outright slutty. Keyword is borderline. I don't mean she should be dressed like a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. Also, you have to look at this from an American perspective. There is a huge difference between American and European television. Watch a soccer match. The only women you see are cheering in the audience. Watch american football/basketball/ufc. They have scantily dressed women dancing every time the sport pauses. I don't want that of course. But it should show you why I want to sexualize it just a bit. Again, I don't want Anna (or anyone) to go full on slutmode. I just want them to not be so classy and tone it down to what you'd see young women typically dress like nowadays.
TV is Dead What? I don't understand the people saying this. You realize that literally millions of people watch Nascar (which is just watching cars crash). Even crap on ESPN2 attracts over 200k viewers. And that is solely in NA. Online starcraft attracts 100k worldwide for a good event. IPL3, NASL, TSL etc. only attract 50-70k. TV is nowhere near dead. Maybe 10-20 years from now online will eclipse TV. But for now, that is nowhere near the case. Yes I realize this is an unfair comparison. But ESPN2 still averages 200k for a 24 hour cycle. And TV ratings measure people watching commercials, not actually people watching the show (I think). There is also more money in TV views than there is in online views (more possible ad revenue). This quote may interest some of you:
Although it feels like everyone in the U.S. is connected to the Internet and watches TV online, only about 2/3 of houses in the U.S. have broadband Internet access. And only 50-70 percent of households that have the Internet watch video online. And of the people who watch video online, most of them are watching short videos, not full TV episodes.
Some great points but I don't agree with the casters being "too nerdy". Being a nerd these days isn't a bad thing you know, most people respect them and even look up to them. You wanna know why? They are passionate about something, they LOVE it and they don't care what you think about it.
Those people are the ones we wanna show the rest of the world, not the hot clueless chicks and male models who are just sitting there for one reason, a perfect face (hello MLG).
I will give my opinions on the matter later on when i've recollected my thoughts, but for now there is one thing I want to say:
In my opinion, we only have one shot. It will either be a success or it will be a complete failure without any come-back. It HAS to be done extremely well.
I think Artosis and Tasteless are the best we have - no reason to exclude Artosis because he's perceived as "too nerdy". Nerds are in. Those girls wearing the fake plastic glasses and hoodies with white drawstrings? Yeah they like to pretend to be nerds. So long as Tastosis isn't too overbearing but sticks to the more general jokes etc they'd be fine.
I think I agree with Anna or Seltzer needing to be involved. As much as people bitch a hot woman does wonders for viewership and "coolness".
As far as players: I think Idra and HuK are two of the most dynamic personalities in esports. The bad boy and the good guy etc. A show match between the two would be the perfect jumping point for espn. Imagine the hype!
Why does our experience have to suffer? Just have a stream caster that does hardcore analysis (where we'd all watch it anyway) and then have the TV casters that show the stuff on ESPN.
How dare you insult Anna Prosser's fabulous dress! And saying she's "too classy" and needs to be the girls next door is the absolute WRONG attitude to have. The fact that she's classy and smart is the key to her performance, the fact that she looks good is icing on the cake.
Honestly though, I'm so tired of this "we need to legitimize esports!" We are already legitimate!! The conversation should never be "how can we get ESPN to show Starcraft." We're to a point now where the conversation should be "why ESPN is stupid for not showing Starcraft."
Lots of great points. Just wanted to say I was thinking the exact same thing about Anna and that other chick at IPL. The questions, discussions, etc, were actually much better than I was expecting but the way they were dressed was just kind of silly. I mean, sure, they were pretty. But looked like they got lost and somehow stumbled into the tournament - didn't seem belong there at all.
Fucking retarded post, no offense. Selling out to attract a demographic isn't exactly what I'd call good for Starcraft. Sc2 isn't about attracting the frat boy group. Incontrol is worthless as a player and, if anything, should take up casting full time, because he does have some charisma.
Not having analysis completely destroys the experience for anyone who isn't just flicking through the channels. Perhaps you need to stop thinking that gamers need to pretend to be something they're not. Gamers aren't the problem. The problem is that there has existed a permeating stigma about the sorts of people gamers are. This stigma is unjustified and can only be rectified properly by changing the way society sees gamers, not by changing gamers and having everyone fake it.
Like it or not, the people who play Sc2 have more in common with Artosis than they do with Incontrol, and that isn't a bad thing. There are all sorts of emerging markets and demographics, but you want us to pretend to be bros so we can snipe some of the CoD crowd.
A lot needs to be done for this to come out right, but I absolutely agree with the point about making it noob-friendly. Three words: John fucking Madden. Anyone who follows Football seriously (handegg if you`re outside the US) hates Madden because about 90% of what he ever said during a game was drivel. But it was entertaining drivel, and he kept people watching who didn`t give two shits about the intricacies of the rules. The SC2 community is going to be mad about how dumbed down everything neeeds to be, but it`s just the nature of the beast.
I agree with shiori but hes a bit harsh on incontrol. But i agree 100% with the day9 vs tasteless analysis in the post. Tasteless seems more of a dynamic personality while compared to day9.
Being on TV raises the production value of the game which can only be good for e-sports.
On October 18 2011 05:58 wDDelete wrote: I agree with shiori but hes a bit harsh on incontrol. But i agree 100% with the day9 vs tasteless analysis in the post. Tasteless seems more of a dynamic personality while compared to day9.
they're both fine, but i think day9 is a far better caster/more passionate in general. he also has by far the best relationship with the community among casters.
Why so much focus in the College fratboy demographic?
I disagree with a lot of points,a lot of them seem more of you projecting as not wanting to be seen as a nerd. And some are just outright opinions based on...nothing? Like how should Anna dress?
And casters being too nerdy? Making it too newbie friendly(as in abandoning all kind of analysys)? I am nto too sure, it seems you are seriously underestimating the intelligence of the general population. I mean even with Poker I don't see any caster constantly reminding to the public the basic rules of poker.
As far as commercials go, have you seen soccer? They do this thing where from time to time, when there is no much action a banner for the sponsors appears on the screen. Or how about including the advertisements on the maps?
I am sorry I don't mean to sound mean but I think most of your points are kinda bad.Though I agree that a Team league format lends itself more to create better storylines.
I... I honestly think you are selling the casual crowd as if they were braindead idiots... They are not.
Television simply isn't the medium for our generation. Money has been leaving TV slowly for years. As long as we keep consistent on our consumption end, being streaming and torrents, slowly more money will come online.
Many businesses are increasingly savvy at adjusting to things, and this will be no exception. TV will not save Starcraft or be a boon to Starcraft.
Traditional TV is dying and more and more people are turning to the internet to get nearly all of their entertainment. Here is an interesting article (although over a year old now) that shows a definite trend. This survey involved 1000 US consumers - only 17% of those under 25 said they didn't watch any TV online and only 36% of all participates said they didn't watch any TV online.
This survey, although a small sample size, is indicative of a very obvious trend in consumer entertainment. Like it or not, traditional TV is becoming less and less important, everything is moving to online, instant streaming of TV and entertainment whenever you want it.
The good news is that online is where eSports fits best and we have been online since this whole thing began. We are heading in the right direction and we should be focused on improving our online product as opposed to taking it in another, dying direction.
On October 18 2011 05:52 Shiori wrote: Fucking retarded post, no offense. Selling out to attract a demographic isn't exactly what I'd call good for Starcraft. Sc2 isn't about attracting the frat boy group. Incontrol is worthless as a player and, if anything, should take up casting full time, because he does have some charisma.
Not having analysis completely destroys the experience for anyone who isn't just flicking through the channels. Perhaps you need to stop thinking that gamers need to pretend to be something they're not. Gamers aren't the problem. The problem is that there has existed a permeating stigma about the sorts of people gamers are. This stigma is unjustified and can only be rectified properly by changing the way society sees gamers, not by changing gamers and having everyone fake it.
Like it or not, the people who play Sc2 have more in common with Artosis than they do with Incontrol, and that isn't a bad thing. There are all sorts of emerging markets and demographics, but you want us to pretend to be bros so we can snipe some of the CoD crowd.
No thanks.
What he said.
OT: Why does so many people feel like Starcraft need to become this HUGE thing anyway. Personally I like the fact that it's still a bit hidden from the mainstream people. The moment things get to big it starts to lose some of its soul.
Also, if IPL and MLG's budgets are any barometer, do we really need to be courting the "mainstream." Seems like there's enough money already in esports that ESPN will come to us and do SC2 on our terms.
Your post is mostly about how we should change starcraft to appeal to the broader audience.
But when has dumbing things down ever made things better? All it'll do is be awkward for both sides. Prior SC2 fans won't like it because it's too dumbed down, and non-SC2 fans won't like it because it's not dumbed down enough, and if they do like it, they won't really get a taste of what the real community is like because they'll be the only ones enjoying it.
We shouldn't focus on changing the scene to fit non-nerds better. We should be converting those non-nerds into nerds themselves, so that they can appreciate the sport better for what it is.
But I have to agree with this: Television is slowly going away, and especially in developing countries. Very, very soon internet-television is going to be far more widely available than traditional cable in developing countries just due to it's broadcast capability. Nobody runs cable lines to slums, but all it takes is for 1 person to have an internet-capable cellphone.
On October 18 2011 06:01 divito wrote: Television simply isn't the medium for our generation. Money has been leaving TV slowly for years. As long as we keep consistent on our consumption end, being streaming and torrents, slowly more money will come online.
Many businesses are increasingly savvy at adjusting to things, and this will be no exception. TV will not save Starcraft or be a boon to Starcraft.
Thank you OP, you have outlined why some of us (including myself) don't want Starcraft on TV. You'd have to include all that mainstream bullshit that makes us not want to watch regular sports, with little to no gains for those who already like watching Starcraft.
The biggest problem I see with this post, and I see quite a few problems with it, is that you assume that there is still a negative connotation with "nerd." Nerd culture has become extremely mainstream recently-- the hipster movement is a clash between beat-nics and nerds in my opinion-- and there is an enormous potential audience for young people who are susceptible to nerd-like tendencies.
Since I became obsessed with the game, I have convinced three of my friends to start playing StarCraft II. One of them was a complete nerd, but was in no way a video game nerd. He enjoys it because, besides being fun, it takes a tremendous amount of work and is extremely competitive. The other two people I've converted are not nerds, but are susceptible to things that nerds like. One of them has previously enjoyed RPG's (not MMOs, things like D&D) while the other is just extremely intelligent.
Our target audience shouldn't be all 18-24 year olds. It should be all 13-30 year olds who are susceptible to nerd-like tendencies. Rather than focusing on a narrow age-group with a broad range of interests, I think it is better to focus on a broad age-group with a narrow range of interests.
Day9 and Artosis are kind of the same kind of caster, they are very knowledgeable and know alot of tactics etc, these are good casters.
Then we have casters like Tasteless, Husky, JP, DJWheat which dont know anything about the game basically, they have poor insight and knowledge about the game, these kind of casters are there to add some "fun" to the whole thing, adding some jokes here and there and yeah they are just there.
I think one of those big personalities that should be "there" should be one of the knowledgeble guys (this is the most important) so either Day9 or Artosis, I'd say Day9 as Artosis already has a full scheduled job.
Then we have caster who adds some fun etc, now Im maybe gonna break some of your guys bubbles but I would like to see Husky here. The Husky+Day9 combo from MLG has just been stunningly fun and good, they are such a match, like black and white, jing and jang, day and night you get it.
Actually I like the Day9/Husky combo even more than the Tasteless/artosis combo, yes I just said that and I stand for it 100%
if MLG gets televised on something like ESPN, how much time do people think will be dedicated to showing MLG? it definitely won't be the entirety of the event. ESPN will be losing money if MLG occupies 8+ hours a day on one of ESPN's channels.
what they will show will either be games that have already been played and the footage will be edited and condensed down to fit into time slots.
if they try to go to a live route, then it'll be something like just showing finals and MLG will have to try to hit ESPN's TV air time for the finals. the problem with this route is that a lot of story and drama will be missing because people won't know the path people took to reach the finals.
I think some of this is valid. But you state to many things as if they are facts when they are definitely debatable. Appealing to the mainstream viewer is the right idea, but you can't make it boring in the long run. You have to have a mix of both. That is why the casting archon is perfect. Tasteless + Artosis because tasteless makes it understandable for the new guy and Artosis makes it interesting for the veteran. Even the casual observer would get bored after the 100th time watching a game and having tasteless explain why workers mine minerals. You gotta have stuff that hooks them, but you also need something that keeps em hooked long term.
MLG I think has the right feel. The crowd enthuiasm + the great content makes for the perfect show on tv.
On October 18 2011 05:52 Shiori wrote: Fucking retarded post, no offense. Selling out to attract a demographic isn't exactly what I'd call good for Starcraft. Sc2 isn't about attracting the frat boy group. Incontrol is worthless as a player and, if anything, should take up casting full time, because he does have some charisma.
Not having analysis completely destroys the experience for anyone who isn't just flicking through the channels. Perhaps you need to stop thinking that gamers need to pretend to be something they're not. Gamers aren't the problem. The problem is that there has existed a permeating stigma about the sorts of people gamers are. This stigma is unjustified and can only be rectified properly by changing the way society sees gamers, not by changing gamers and having everyone fake it.
Like it or not, the people who play Sc2 have more in common with Artosis than they do with Incontrol, and that isn't a bad thing. There are all sorts of emerging markets and demographics, but you want us to pretend to be bros so we can snipe some of the CoD crowd.
No thanks.
I just wanted to point out that I thought your post was well worded and had good points, however the part that I bolded you could have done with out. Otherwise it was a fine post and brought up some interesting points.
In my opinion I don't think there's a problem with ESPN showing who SC2 fans/players really are. I mean we have people like Gordon Hayward coming out and saying he plays SC2 and then goes and plays the open bracket at IPL3. That's awesome and helps get rid of the stigma of "nerds" looking like characters from "Revenge of the Nerds". Also i think if ESPN were to show some of those interviews they've had with the Professional Athletes that also play SC2 prior to actually showing a game of SC2 it would help a lot.
Two options for broadcasting for starcraft I would say are:
1) The soccer route. No commercial breaks except say at half time and during pre and post game. Let's you keep things live. Probably have to force players to take breaks for commercials between games. This happens for Korean broodwar starcraft telecasts.
2) The Poker/WSOP route. Get maximum production values, do everything based on recordings and casts. Can schedule commercials breaking into long games as necessary if there is a good moment. Would be more episodic and probably broadcasting an entire tournament.
As for the TV viewing shift that is mostly for broadcasted shows I think. Live sports still seems to mostly be on tv. That said if barcraft can work then maybe online broadcasts would work just fine in the long run.
On October 18 2011 06:06 dubRa wrote: Why would you change nerdiness? What do you gain? You want to portray the starcraft community in a way we are not just to appeal to the mainstream?
"Man, just be proud you are a Starcraft gamer. There is nothing more cool than being proud of the things that you love." day9
It pains me to say this, but having that kind of outlook is sort of being hipster. Today most people see video gamers as nerds. It may not be true, but perception can be greater than reality. Having non-dorky people helps non-dorks relate to sc2. Having dorky people helps dorks relate to sc2. Think about other shows and who represents them. How many mathematicians are the face of football or basketball? Sure there are some nerdier personalities, but they are rarely on broadcasts and are usually there to be "experts" or "analysts."
Day9 is right that there is nothing better than being proud of what you love, but if you met a kid who was proud he picked is boogers or was proud of his abstract art made of his feces, you wouldn't think to yourself," hey that guy is pretty cool". There is more to it than just thinking that sc2 is cool and thus you are cool.
On October 18 2011 06:06 dubRa wrote: Why would you change nerdiness? What do you gain? You want to portray the starcraft community in a way we are not just to appeal to the mainstream?
"Man, just be proud you are a Starcraft gamer. There is nothing more cool than being proud of the things that you love." day9
It pains me to say this, but having that kind of outlook is sort of being hipster. Today most people see video gamers as nerds. It may not be true, but perception can be greater than reality. Having non-dorky people helps non-dorks relate to sc2. Having dorky people helps dorks relate to sc2. Think about other shows and who represents them. How many mathematicians are the face of football or basketball? Sure there are some nerdier personalities, but they are rarely on broadcasts and are usually there to be "experts" or "analysts."
Day9 is right that there is nothing better than being proud of what you love, but if you met a kid who was proud he picked is boogers or was proud of his abstract art made of his feces, you wouldn't think to yourself," hey that guy is pretty cool". There is more to it than just thinking that sc2 is cool and thus you are cool.
Did you really just compare gamers to kids that pick their noses?
OGN already has a close to perfect format. Dedicated channel, entertaining casts of full-length games, emphasis on player personality and team rivalries, screaming fan girls.
The one thing i agree on is the point on analysis. We should definitely have a "studio" akin to that of most offline sports that are covered on TV. A host, an expert and a couple of guests that break down the games and offer in-depth perspective to what happened on and off the court. Imagine DJ Wheat, the host asking Artosis, the expert what Tylers problem was during the game - Artosis offers an analysis and also asks the guest, Nazgul, to provide an insight into recent events behind the scenes. I can't wait for them all to sit around a 'touch screen television-table' circling units, drawing arrows and discussing plays while fast forwarding and pausing the replay of a game we just saw.
On October 18 2011 06:14 Anchen wrote: Two options for broadcasting for starcraft I would say are:
1) The soccer route. No commercial breaks except say at half time and during pre and post game. Let's you keep things live. Probably have to force players to take breaks for commercials between games. This happens for Korean broodwar starcraft telecasts.
2) The Poker/WSOP route. Get maximum production values, do everything based on recordings and casts. Can schedule commercials breaking into long games as necessary if there is a good moment. Would be more episodic and probably broadcasting an entire tournament.
As for the TV viewing shift that is mostly for broadcasted shows I think. Live sports still seems to mostly be on tv. That said if barcraft can work then maybe online broadcasts would work just fine in the long run.
I would definitely stay away from the WSOP route. Watching portions of games rather than complete games makes the sc2 experience worse.
On October 18 2011 06:06 dubRa wrote: Why would you change nerdiness? What do you gain? You want to portray the starcraft community in a way we are not just to appeal to the mainstream?
"Man, just be proud you are a Starcraft gamer. There is nothing more cool than being proud of the things that you love." day9
It pains me to say this, but having that kind of outlook is sort of being hipster. Today most people see video gamers as nerds. It may not be true, but perception can be greater than reality. Having non-dorky people helps non-dorks relate to sc2. Having dorky people helps dorks relate to sc2. Think about other shows and who represents them. How many mathematicians are the face of football or basketball? Sure there are some nerdier personalities, but they are rarely on broadcasts and are usually there to be "experts" or "analysts."
Day9 is right that there is nothing better than being proud of what you love, but if you met a kid who was proud he picked is boogers or was proud of his abstract art made of his feces, you wouldn't think to yourself," hey that guy is pretty cool". There is more to it than just thinking that sc2 is cool and thus you are cool.
I don't know about where you live, but here in the UK nearly EVERYONE plays X-box, tons of people play Halo and quite a few watch comp as well.
The leap from Xbox to PC is minute (although PC gaming is considered hipster gaming here ^_^) and the leap from playing Sc2 to watching Sc2 is even smaller.
I think that eSports is going to play out differently from the OP. The OP seems to think that eSports is going to have to conform to mainstream culture. I think it will work the other way round - eSports will at some point REDEFINE mainstream culture.
OP, I agree with many of your points. But I will be quite frank with you, and with everybody else here: If I have to sell my soul down the river to gain fans (meaning, I cannot have my "nerdy Artosis", or my "nerdy Day[9]), then please, I don't want this to ever, ever, be nationalized.
I would rather keep shit real, and have Teamliquid.net, and the grassroots tournaments, where true passion is derived, than to make mainstreamed, corporate America, judge how we should act and who we should be.
If this is done on TV, I don't want anything to be fake - we need to tell it like it is. There better be nerds everywhere, just like OnGameNet and MBCGame.
I really like that commercial idea. It would work out so nice, you could have the next game ready by the time the first one is finished and you could just keep rolling through the matches. I really love it. But I also like Anchen's idea number 2. The game shouldn't be cut unless its longer than 30 minutes and if it reaches that time, they use your idea where they just stop the live brodcasting and move it over. Then you miss no action, and they still get that adds they want you to see. It would work out so nicely. And they need to step up the production level a little bit. They need to show the fans hype. They crowd rawr. Because then other people will be like that must have been a really good game, I will watch the next one and see why everyone was so cheery at the end. They watch and they get hyped up seeing everyone watching it, the casters casting it. It is all about the hype. I also really like the girl Idea. They need someone sexy but not to sleazy. Some people might just tune into see her. (haha) But everything is a really cool idea. I think it needs ome tweaking but what doesn't.
But on another note I would just rather watch it at my computer rather that turn on a tv.
The broadcast needs to be noob friendly. Cut the analysis out during the game. The casters should be explaining the absolute basics and building hype with play-by-play analysis. Doing anything else is detrimental. You're making a show for people that have never seen SC2 before.
i think this is absolutely 100% wrong
the reason why is that everyone who has tried to do things this way, was not successful
i think part of the reason that starcraft has managed to get as popular as it did, is because of the commentary
by making it sound detailed and complex, your average noob will be mystified, and think it's serious stuff
compare this to the disastrous play by play efforts of previous leagues on tv. no one took it seriously, because they simplified the games so much that there didn't appear to be anything to take serious
you can use the average 5 minutes or so of downtime at the start of the game to explain really basic stuff, but once the game starts to heat up, you need to show the game for the intricate technical rts that it is, otherwise the accomplishments of the player seem meaningless
[QUOTE]On October 18 2011 06:15 Trezeguet wrote: [QUOTE]On October 18 2011 06:06 dubRa wrote: How many mathematicians are the face of football or basketball? Sure there are some nerdier personalities, but they are rarely on broadcasts and are usually there to be "experts" or "analysts." [/QUOTE]
What? Why would they be? How does that comparison even make sense? "Dorks" as you refer to them; play, watch and analyze Starcraft. Mathematicians have very little to do with football and basketball.
Yea I had a feeling this what come with mixed reviews. You either hate the idea of "selling out" and putting it on TV. Or you realize what needs to be done to get it there.
Personally, I don't want to "sell out" so to speak. I love SC2 as it is. Hell I've probably watched more SC2 matches than everyone here (I've been following this game since release and have watched every major tournament since). So yea, I am passionate about what we have so far.
But online we are capped. The television market is just an easier way to reach a much wider audience.
Also remember that what we start with on TV, isn't necessarily what's going to exist a year later. We start being noob friendly, then we transition into what we have online right now. Just like how many people started SC2 with Husky/HD (very noob friendly) and have since transitioned into loving the analytical approach that artosis or day[9] brings.
You have to capture the audience, then you can start incorporating them into the mold we currently have.
I'll take some time to respond to individual points later tonight. Some of you are bringing up awesome things that I definitely want to respond to.
I agree 110%, I don't want SC2 to become the NFL. I don't even want SC2 to become poker, even though I'm sure all these guys getting paid for it might want it that way.
Let's keep it on webtv, where people that want it know how to find it, and the community can grow organically.
I don't really see why eSports needs to be televised, the target demographic don't use television as their primary medium of media consumption. Barcraft's I understand, the social setting is preferable over sitting infront of PC's watching a stream. But broadcasts on the likes of ESPN etc just seem unnecessary...Mainstream broadcasting of gaming was attempted all be it badly with the CGS, and look how well that turned out. (yes there were other factors involved but at the end of the day the tv audience just isn't there). I personally can't see a world where a television broadcast of any game including starcraft will come close to stream viewer-ship. Taking LoL as an example of large streaming numbers seeing 100,000+ viewers at major finals, I can't see this translating well into a different medium.
On October 18 2011 06:11 mbr2321 wrote: The biggest problem I see with this post, and I see quite a few problems with it, is that you assume that there is still a negative connotation with "nerd." Nerd culture has become extremely mainstream recently-- the hipster movement is a clash between beat-nics and nerds in my opinion-- and there is an enormous potential audience for young people who are susceptible to nerd-like tendencies.
Since I became obsessed with the game, I have convinced three of my friends to start playing StarCraft II. One of them was a complete nerd, but was in no way a video game nerd. He enjoys it because, besides being fun, it takes a tremendous amount of work and is extremely competitive. The other two people I've converted are not nerds, but are susceptible to things that nerds like. One of them has previously enjoyed RPG's (not MMOs, things like D&D) while the other is just extremely intelligent.
Our target audience shouldn't be all 18-24 year olds. It should be all 13-30 year olds who are susceptible to nerd-like tendencies. Rather than focusing on a narrow age-group with a broad range of interests, I think it is better to focus on a broad age-group with a narrow range of interests.
There is. If you want Starcraft to have any success on ESPN, you're going to need to prove that it can be enjoyed by everyone, not just by people with no social skills who stay inside all the time (Which is what most people think of when they talk about nerds). As far as television goes, its about the money and exposure, getting people interested who might want to pay to support the growing pro scene. If you try to appeal to nerds on ESPN, you're doomed to fail. In order to inject money and sponsors, you need to appeal to a large amount of people, and 13-30 year olds with "nerd-like tendencies" is not a big enough market to sustain it.
As far as the people who seem to think that the scene doesn't need ESPN, they need to think again. The biggest of contracts in Starcraft is smaller than the contracts of some of the worst players in other leagues. Why? Exposure. Without a big recognized name like ESPN backing you, you will not get the proper exposure as well as amount of fans needed to attract multiple big money sponsors that pay teams and players. Without appealing to your average sports fan on a recognized media networks like ESPN, you won't get the proper exposure for any of this to happen, and without an effort to remove the "It's for nerds" stigma, the scene will always be an insignificant blip on the internet.
What's with the discussion on casters? What's wrong with nerdiness? Shouldn't we be re-writing misconceptions rather than re-creating them by hiding nerdiness in all its glory under the carpet?
I don't think the commercial issue is as big as everyone makes it out to be. Honestly how many sporting events just work around the event? Baseball, basketball and football all just use the time in between plays or timeouts to run commercials. Plus you can also use breaks in action during "macro periods" to display on screen overlays for sponsors too. The TV format thing I don't think is quite as big of an issue as everyone wants to make out of it.
Just a side note though regarding your comment on iNcontroL needing to be involved. I'm not against him being involved by any means, and yes his girlfriend is hot and he gets to play games for a living, those things are insanely cool. I think most people have a "problem" with the attention he gets because he's doing so bad right now. I mean you can count the wins he's had in MLG since his 4th place finish on 1 hand. Like I said, I don't have anything against him, he's just not playing well and hasn't been for a while so a lot of people are feeling like he's over-hyped.
Alright, OP. You sold me. You have single handedly made me hate the idea of SC2 going to TV. If THIS bullshit is what it takes to bring SC2 to TV, then I can safely give the big fuck that to that idea.
I feel like you're trying to fit Starcraft into something it isn't meant to be. Starcraft isn't a sport in the traditional sense -- we want SCII to be big, but that doesn't mean it has to have the exact same kind of standing as basketball or soccer.
Good Post, but I dont agree with the message it portrays. Why change something that is perfect to attract the majority? Seriously, that is the mindset that makes everything shit these days (Sport, Music ect).
I also actually took a little bit of offence when you started saying "lets get rid of artosis". Artosis isn't a mega nerd like you say he is. A mega nerd would be characterised as someone who is unwashed and looks hideous, rarely leaves the house to renew their WoW subscription and has no friends. Last time I looked, Artosis is none of these things, he looks respectable, he has plenty of friends and is genninely a nice person who has a passionate love for starcraft. Starcraft needs MORE people like him.
Most of it was fine, but you lost your legitimacy with the blatant InControl fanboying. "Lol you jelly" is not a good reason (or a reason at all) for him to be involved in something like this. Get Seltzer to up her act a bit and she'll work fine for the part of the token female.
Since you no longer want Day[9] casting, can he at least be in the background behind the other casters attached to a rope from the ceiling swinging around like a bird?
wheat is the only caster with a TV personality. Tasteless is not smooth enough to run the show. Plus, his voice suffers from time to time and that wouldn't fly on TV, even as a backup. I think pairing wheat with a pure analytical commentator is perfect. Wheat can do the play-by-play and then turn it over to the analyst for detailed opinions during downtime. Idra is the best at this but of course he's owning it up as a player. I think Artosis is second-best. Day9 is also very good but he likes to run the show himself and therefore wouldn't mix with wheat that well. Wheat plus a reserved, analytical commentator seems best.
At all the people who were like "THIS IS AMAZING" in the MLG-espn thread and are finally now realizing that it is a terrible idea. I've never wanted to see SC2 on TV for that reason, it would be an epic fail.
On October 18 2011 06:39 StutteR wrote: I'd stop watching Starcraft if you did this.
I don't get this. Why? Because most people would like something you do? Because you don't want Professional Starcraft Player to a be legitimate career? It may suck to get dumbed down casting for a while, and you don't have to agree with everything he says (I don't agree with the Artosis deal at all), but the fact is, for Starcraft to become a well-known success, it has to appeal to more than just nerds. When it comes down to it, everyone here loves this game for the game. There's other things involved, but for the scene in America to grow significantly, it cannot be seen as only for nerds. Otherwise it will remain a niche game with contracts that are barely sustainable for players. In the best case scenario, where Starcraft became huge from this, there would be a huge influx of players and talent, which can only make to overall skill of the game go up, giving everyone better games. Sure, there will be more BM and annoying players on ladder, but you have an ignore feature that works perfectly fine.
My only issue is that the commercials doesn't have to happen during the games. In real football, they have the ads on the sides of the fields and only have commercials during the half time. The same can be applied to Starcraft. We have the commercials running on the bottom of the screen and real ads in between games.
A lot of people here getting pretty defensive at your ideas that aren't even THAT radical. Dumbing down analysis to appeal to a wider audience? Good grief, husky and HD did that over a year ago and I don't think anyone here would suggest that's a bad thing.
If SC2 got a slot on ESPN team liquid would still exist, streaming would still exist, all of this community's hideous elitism would still exist.... but there'd be a lot more casual players.
...
I was at London barcraft this weekend and a guy came up to me and asked me what was going on and why there were 100 people staring at a screen and screaming and shouting. This man had never heard of starcraft. He had never heard of reddit. He recognised the name "world of warcraft" but didn't know a single thing about it. That might sound inconceivable to some of you guys, but he was just a perfectly normal guy who wasn't nerdy and didnt play video games, going to his local pub on a saturday night. And he was interested in what was going on.
We don't need to keep ESPN-SC2 nerdy because we'll watch it anyway because we like starcraft and we like e-sports. We need to keep ESPN-SC2 approachable so that that guy from the pub who didn't play video games will watch, find out about, and enjoy starcraft. Maybe even one day he'll come across a tiny website called team liquid and join up.
If you look at past experiments with esports on TV, it never worked and I believe that the main reason for that is they tried to change the existing successful product for this "new demographic".
Trying to pander to some alternate demographic is the worst trap you can fall into. Yes, there are additional measures that can be put in place to help first time viewers, but the product that has been successful up until this point should fundamentally remain unchanged.
Dreamhack Valencia was on TV for like 8 hours straight here in spain, most at night. Channel was Canal + Extra from digital tv or whatever you call it.
On October 18 2011 06:58 bbm wrote: A lot of people here getting pretty defensive at your ideas that aren't even THAT radical. Dumbing down analysis to appeal to a wider audience? Good grief, husky and HD did that over a year ago and I don't think anyone here would suggest that's a bad thing.
If SC2 got a slot on ESPN team liquid would still exist, streaming would still exist, all of this community's hideous elitism would still exist.... but there'd be a lot more casual players.
...
I was at London barcraft this weekend and a guy came up to me and asked me what was going on and why there were 100 people staring at a screen and screaming and shouting. This man had never heard of starcraft. He had never heard of reddit. He recognised the name "world of warcraft" but didn't know a single thing about it. That might sound inconceivable to some of you guys, but he was just a perfectly normal guy who wasn't nerdy and didnt play video games, going to his local pub on a saturday night. And he was interested in what was going on.
We don't need to keep ESPN-SC2 nerdy because we'll watch it anyway because we like starcraft and we like e-sports. We need to keep ESPN-SC2 approachable so that that guy from the pub who didn't play video games will watch, find out about, and enjoy starcraft. Maybe even one day he'll come across a tiny website called team liquid and join up.
Let's get off our high horses.
For his sake.
This, this this. Lets also do it for the sake of the teams without sponsors so their players can dedicate their time to playing and get better without having to worry about financial issues.
On October 18 2011 06:58 bbm wrote: A lot of people here getting pretty defensive at your ideas that aren't even THAT radical. Dumbing down analysis to appeal to a wider audience? Good grief, husky and HD did that over a year ago and I don't think anyone here would suggest that's a bad thing.
If SC2 got a slot on ESPN team liquid would still exist, streaming would still exist, all of this community's hideous elitism would still exist.... but there'd be a lot more casual players.
...
I was at London barcraft this weekend and a guy came up to me and asked me what was going on and why there were 100 people staring at a screen and screaming and shouting. This man had never heard of starcraft. He had never heard of reddit. He recognised the name "world of warcraft" but didn't know a single thing about it. That might sound inconceivable to some of you guys, but he was just a perfectly normal guy who wasn't nerdy and didnt play video games, going to his local pub on a saturday night. And he was interested in what was going on.
We don't need to keep ESPN-SC2 nerdy because we'll watch it anyway because we like starcraft and we like e-sports. We need to keep ESPN-SC2 approachable so that that guy from the pub who didn't play video games will watch, find out about, and enjoy starcraft. Maybe even one day he'll come across a tiny website called team liquid and join up.
Let's get off our high horses.
For his sake.
Your logic kills me. We shouldn't be afraid to change something because we don't need to keep something as it is because a complete stranger saw MLG and liked it.
Starcraft 2 isn't CS or LoL where it may be boring to watch or difficult to understand. Starcraft is enjoyed by people that watch more than play and people that don't play at all. They see Banelings and mutas rolling about and killing stuff. They see the Zerg infect the map with creep, they see the power of 2 carriers. We don't need Tasteless saying 'and here we have the queen, who can inject the hatchery with larvae, which are like worms that turn into Zerg units'.
The only thing that might ruin sc2 for casuals is too much cheese/all in play, because the casual viewer would not understand why the game ended so quickly and how a pro gamer could possibly lose to such a silly strategy.
I agree with most of the posters here that live sc2 on tv just wont work. If anything they can do like a 1hour special or something to get people more interested and tune in on their computers.
On October 18 2011 07:08 Micket wrote: Starcraft 2 isn't CS or LoL where it may be boring to watch or difficult to understand. Starcraft is enjoyed by people that watch more than play and people that don't play at all. They see Banelings and mutas rolling about and killing stuff. They see the Zerg infect the map with creep, they see the power of 2 carriers. We don't need Tasteless saying 'and here we have the queen, who can inject the hatchery with larvae, which are like worms that turn into Zerg units'.
The only thing that might ruin sc2 for casuals is too much cheese/all in play, because the casual viewer would not understand why the game ended so quickly and how a pro gamer could possibly lose to such a silly strategy.
This is were Tasteless comes in an explains that Boxer's only hope is to win in the early game because Idra is a monster in the late game. Artosis explains why, thousands watch the game streamed on the internet and starcraft is on the reddit frontpage.
I'm very skeptical. I don't want to have people in this community that dislike Artosis and I don't think they would want to be part of it. I think that the people that watch poker don't care about the game but the insane amounts of money, an aspect that starcraft doesn't really offer. I think it's a dumb idea to devolve technology-wise and move to an inferior platform for insane amounts of money. I don't think the starcraft community will get their money's worth in terms of increased audience. I think that the starcraft community should use the money to improve our their own platform. I think that it will dangerously hurt starcraft if it doesn't turn out to be a complete success. I think that starcraft doesn't need TV to go mainstream. I think that it's a better idea to simply advertise our streams on TV, it's cheaper and we don't have to obliterate the beauty of our community.
The one and only argument for TV is a shot at getting bigger but even so, nobody knows if it would take off and how much bigger the community would get by going on TV. TV isn't a guaranteed success, there are shows that fail.
Interesting post, and a lot of peoples reactions to it are fairly predictable. For some people the idea of taking something like this and making it accessible to everyone is a scary thing whether they want to verbalize it as such or not.
Some people have been involved/watching eSports and playing video games as long as they can remember and part of the allure to it for them was that it was a niche thing that appealed to them and had a community that they could relate to. As irrational that the ''fratboys and choches don't deserve this!!'' reaction is, it makes sense.
Personally I can't see SC2 on TV working, there is too many logistical complications and also just the fact that the SC2 community is spread out all over the world into too many time zones and demographics to be profitable for 1 TV network to show.
My personal opinion aside, onething we have to understand when discussing the topic of SC2 on TV is that it simply IS going to happen at one point or another; the prospect of money to be made for companies that get in on the ground floor is too much for entertainment execs to ignore. I'm not saying it's going to happen this year or next, but someone will try it in some capacity. That being said if it's going to happen we as a community might as well try to make sure that it is done right, so posts like this on are good/constructive.
The only thing I don't agree with the OP on is his idea that we should be segregating ourselves from the nerd community as much as possible. I get the thought process behind this but I think that in our current day and age it is just flat out wrong, as others have said being a nerd right now is as cool as ever. Aside from that though is that we simply AREN'T going to win over the demographic of tribal tattooed, white sunglass and polo shirt wearing choches. No matter what we do it is just not something that EVERYONE will be interested in. Figure skating is a big televised sport but how often do you see a 300 lb guy in a football jersey sitting down to watch it? It's just not going to happen and trying to force it is a waste of time.
There is however a million borderline nerds in the world that would see the appeal in something like this. TV shows like Chuck and Big Bang Theory are succesful because they play on the ''geek sheek'' image of the quirky, somewhat nerdy but still funny and aware of his appearance nerd. In essence...We want SC2 to be this : + Show Spoiler +
And I got news.. We already are the former. We are a community of talented and intelligent people from all different walks of life, we don't have to change ourselves to cater to the mass viewing population. Sure we might have to simplify some of the commentary or hype up the players and their rivalries a bit more then we're used to, but we don't have to pretend to be something that we're not.
On October 18 2011 06:58 bbm wrote: A lot of people here getting pretty defensive at your ideas that aren't even THAT radical. Dumbing down analysis to appeal to a wider audience? Good grief, husky and HD did that over a year ago and I don't think anyone here would suggest that's a bad thing.
If SC2 got a slot on ESPN team liquid would still exist, streaming would still exist, all of this community's hideous elitism would still exist.... but there'd be a lot more casual players.
...
I was at London barcraft this weekend and a guy came up to me and asked me what was going on and why there were 100 people staring at a screen and screaming and shouting. This man had never heard of starcraft. He had never heard of reddit. He recognised the name "world of warcraft" but didn't know a single thing about it. That might sound inconceivable to some of you guys, but he was just a perfectly normal guy who wasn't nerdy and didnt play video games, going to his local pub on a saturday night. And he was interested in what was going on.
We don't need to keep ESPN-SC2 nerdy because we'll watch it anyway because we like starcraft and we like e-sports. We need to keep ESPN-SC2 approachable so that that guy from the pub who didn't play video games will watch, find out about, and enjoy starcraft. Maybe even one day he'll come across a tiny website called team liquid and join up.
Let's get off our high horses.
For his sake.
Your logic kills me. We shouldn't be afraid to change something because we don't need to keep something as it is because a complete stranger saw MLG and liked it.
Your sentence construction kills me. I totally agree with bbm and the OP. The growth of eSports is the final goal, not catering to those who are already fans. I don't care if I'm ripping my hair out listening to the ESPN SC2 casters. If my non-sc2 friends can get excited over this, I'm all for it.
There's no reason to say that all analysis needs to be cut out, the majority of it would need to be dumbed down, yes, but not cut out entirely. Watching current sports on TV, there is a lot of room for strategy, and while a lot of it is dumbed down, it doesn't mean that it's gone. A noob-welcoming atmosphere is what you're looking for, but it doesn't have to be entirely catered to those noobs.
In fact, I'd bet that unless it's pulled off perfectly, not only would a game sans any analysis ward off more 'die-hard' fans, but it would still alienate newcomers somewhat. No one would watch it then, classifying it as a failure.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the dumbing down/ selling out mentality. However, there are some great gems in the OP that I would love for tournaments to pick up. Namely, the capturing the players reactions, the audience reactions, and the keyboard keys. They are present and bits and pieces, but even MLG is still not where the BW proleagues are at with immediately zooming to players reaction everytime rather than cutting directly to the casters. It's still pretty hit and miss.
The player cam is a start, although I think they need to find another place to put it so it's not so distorted/ staring up into players nostrils. They do catch some of the walking out, but it's that immediate reaction when a player wins or loses that is missing. The BW proleagues also do a few more player cam shots at the beginning of the game when nothing much happens which might help. That and a few more crowd shots, especially when there is chanting.
One thing we don't need to adopt is those mind-numbing interview questions that plague sports programs. We just sit their and mock both the dumb questions and the pat, nothing answers that most NHL players give out. Only a few like Bieksa makes it interesting.
The core of the problem is that the amount of people who play SC2 is far less than the people who play other televised sports. If we somehow make the game attractive to other people then we can make that transition to TV easily. This is a classic example of trying to run before you can crawl. To build a strong and sturdy house you need a solid base which we don't have, or at least not solid enough, to be on TV yet. You can't just shove it down people's throats and expect it to be swallowed.
Even football, world's most popular sport, has a hard time getting on basic TV in the U.S. and asking SC2 to do that at this stage is just not very feasible. Look at me. I have to watch some mediocre Lille's match, one basic cable, instead of Bayern vs. Napoli tomorrow.
People saying being nerdy is fashionable now please do some reality checks. You are just saying that to stroke your own ego. Being a nerd is different from being smart. Don't confuse the two.
On October 18 2011 06:59 Dodgin wrote: If we have to " Sell out " to be on TV. No it is not worth it.
Yeah, I mean I could understand if they dumbed it down to explain it..... But you can't take away the passion, which I guess people call neerdiness from the game.
On October 18 2011 06:58 bbm wrote: A lot of people here getting pretty defensive at your ideas that aren't even THAT radical. Dumbing down analysis to appeal to a wider audience? Good grief, husky and HD did that over a year ago and I don't think anyone here would suggest that's a bad thing.
If SC2 got a slot on ESPN team liquid would still exist, streaming would still exist, all of this community's hideous elitism would still exist.... but there'd be a lot more casual players.
...
I was at London barcraft this weekend and a guy came up to me and asked me what was going on and why there were 100 people staring at a screen and screaming and shouting. This man had never heard of starcraft. He had never heard of reddit. He recognised the name "world of warcraft" but didn't know a single thing about it. That might sound inconceivable to some of you guys, but he was just a perfectly normal guy who wasn't nerdy and didnt play video games, going to his local pub on a saturday night. And he was interested in what was going on.
We don't need to keep ESPN-SC2 nerdy because we'll watch it anyway because we like starcraft and we like e-sports. We need to keep ESPN-SC2 approachable so that that guy from the pub who didn't play video games will watch, find out about, and enjoy starcraft. Maybe even one day he'll come across a tiny website called team liquid and join up.
Let's get off our high horses.
For his sake.
Your logic kills me. We shouldn't be afraid to change something because we don't need to keep something as it is because a complete stranger saw MLG and liked it.
I wrote out several long rambling replies to this, but none of them seemed snappy or to the point enough, so let me just say this.
Yes. I think we should change starcraft because that guy enjoyed MLG. Because he would never have found out about MLG if he hadn't been in a pub full of sc2 nerds. He would never in a million years be able to work out what was happening without a friend familiar with the scene to talk him through it. And getting people like him to play starcraft should be one of the ultimate goals of blizzard.
If SC2 was to work on TV we'd need Artosis, so I'd have to disagree with you on that point.. Anyway, Artosis/Tasteless wouldn't come because they're obligated to GSL - which is doing far better then I think any TV show aired in America would do. I reckon Day[9] + Husky would be great for it, and I agree incontrol would have to be involved somehow, even if he's just an interviewer. Say what you want but the guys charismatic and a fantastic addition to the community.
However, I dunno, I'd like to believe SC2 could work on TV, but I genuinely feel it will just fall flat. MLG is great because it's already got such a huge following, and everyone from around the world can tune in. A TV show in America will just be taccy and too try-hard, and only aired nationally ofc and the majority bulk of viewers for live events aren't from America.
I don't see what the huge major deal is with getting SC2 on TV anyway. Everyone knows TV is getting slowly phased out by the internet, heck, I never watch TV anymore. The only reason I have one is because my old flatmate left his xbox360 round and hasn't bothered to come back for it. The way SC2 is going I think it can only get better, providing it sticks to its current platform. I feel as if taking SC2 to the TV is a step in a wrong direction because there really is no benefit to it.
My biggest worry with something from the mainstream coming into starcraft is how they would choose the casters. oh ye, and forcing odd situations with girls and the players.
I think something that could be done is, have commercials in between the games(obvious) like, when the players say, GG !! instant commercial, like have it ready just as they say gg. I think just what GomTV does just onto the TV would be perfect. , they fit in a good amount of commercials etc...
But one thing i have to say is as one of the commericals, have it around some sports channels, with the clips, like 5 seconds of losiras insane hands, then some of the insane crowds, the GG !! etc, a nice video that can give someone a hint of mhm, i wanna watch this or try.
The casting would have to be a bit different then it is now, because the normal casting is for people who actually semi-know the game, not just a brand new person, so maybe a day9 of old casting(basic, explains whats happening etc) for normal matches, then for bigger matches have the excitement etc .. Just some thoughts may not be good but they help a little i hope ^_^
I think artosis is the best foreing caster, he explain whats going on (strat wise), he has hilarious phrases, and the most important think he gets excited with the game korean style with screams like the old famous "so many banelings"
The only problem I find with this thread is that you are trying to find an extreme to conform to (ie. we need to sell out, we need casters who just talk about the superficial side of things and have no analysis), but I feel like we can find a balance between the two. We don't have to say: "Hey day9, we love your analysis and stuff, but save that for the daily, if you're gonna broadcast with us, you have to be really boring and just talk about what's only going on in-game." How can we even attract an audience like that if we don't allow personalities like day9, artosis, and tasteless be themselves, and being "themselves" does mean that they are analyzing the game.
And about commercials, I think a commercial in between every set would be fine, it just would be a bitch to schedule on something like TV Guide.
Last point I want to make. Esports is growing rapidly, and it seems every MLG we are starting to get more people following it. I feel like if esports is to stay on the internet, we can still become "mainstream". Internet media or internet TV is about to get a lot bigger in the next few years, and we might have primetime TV and sports events every weekend, but if esports is to stay on the internet (but still remain big), we can still compete with TV. (not to mention is esports stays on the internet, vods are so much easier to grab ahold of) In other words, we don't have to force SC2 to become mainstream, we just let it happen bitbybit.
I've thought a lot about this lately, and there are a few things that you have to do to get SC2 on TV:
Concessions-
- You probably (almost definitely) won't be able to broadcast live games The Korean model worked for this because they have eSports channels. We don't and probably won't for a long while.
- Games will be cut up In that you will have to fit into a time slot, with commercials and credits, games will not be start to finish.
Having said that, I think a slight... gimmick? might be needed. Here's what I came up with-
Ever watch Iron Chef? If not, check out this spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
It's a cooking show. Challengers come to 'Kitchen Stadium' and pick from a panel of 4 (or so) expert chefs. A secret ingredient is chosen by The Chairmen, and they have 1 hour to prepare 5 dishes to a set of judges. They eat, pass judgement, and a winner is chosen.
- a 1 hour battle 1 hour show, 1 hour battle, pretty easy right? Well, here's how it plays out:
- 7-9 minute intro (average) The show is introduced by the host, who then brings in the challenger with a brief history. The Chairmen welcomes the Challenger, who then chooses which Iron Chef they would like to battle. Next, the Chairmen unveils the secret ingredient, and starts the fight.
Over the next 5-6 minutes, the Chefs get their plan going, and a 'floor person' who monitors the battle from the kitchens gets an inside scoop with the chefs and what they're going for.
15 minutes: COMMERCIAL
The next 30 minutes or so is filled with the cooking part of the show, usually cut up with another commercial. Towards the end, they present their dishes to the judges. Another commercial comes, and then a winner is chosen.
Great show right, but what are you getting at?
Well, if SC2 wants to succeed on TV, I think it needs to follow a similar format... IRON CRAFT! Challengers approach some pros and take them on in a heated battle.
Secret ingredient? The map. You could have a new map chosen by a 'Chairman' each week.
How would you deal with commercials? How about the guy on the floor? Well the nice thing is we can use these 2 problems to form a single solution!
To anybody who knows the game, there are lulls, tense moments, and high points during a game. They can be pretty easily identified, and we can budget our commercials around these. Let's use some vague examples:
- A lull in the game because both players are going for expansions and turtling. We take off for some commercials. When we come back, the host throws it to the 'floor person', who catches up on <elapsed game time> that we missed during the commercial. Maybe points to some upgrades, army movement, a failed harass? Back to the 'host' (commentators).
- Tension! Protoss went for a FFE and his Zerg opponent has faked his hatchery and is doing a Roach all-in! Cut to commercial with a trailer: "Can he hold this? Find out when we come back!"
Here we can see viable spots that commercials can be placed into the game without really disrupting the flow.
A valid point of contention: Sometimes games are cheesy and .. short. We can solve this by either broadcasting 2 'faster' games or 1 'longer' game.
This is getting really long so my last point will be this: For Starcraft to be on TV, a lot of value will be placed in the production. Seriously, if you've never watched Iron Chef, go check it out. When you watch, imagine a similar format that's accommodating for SC2, and maybe you'll see what I'm getting at.
On October 18 2011 07:41 SKTerran.117 wrote: agree 100% with the OP and I think anyone that can step back enough and look at things would at least mostly agree with him as well
there is no poll but I doubt he would get 50% because the sc2 scene still has too many hipsterish nerds
also why is the station in question espn, wouldn't something like g4tv be a better starting point?
Well g4tv is a very primitive channel, not many are subscribed to it, so it would be easier to gain the attention of people who are ingrained into esports, but harder to go "mainstream" and hit the core audience.
On October 18 2011 06:58 bbm wrote: A lot of people here getting pretty defensive at your ideas that aren't even THAT radical. Dumbing down analysis to appeal to a wider audience? Good grief, husky and HD did that over a year ago and I don't think anyone here would suggest that's a bad thing.
If SC2 got a slot on ESPN team liquid would still exist, streaming would still exist, all of this community's hideous elitism would still exist.... but there'd be a lot more casual players.
...
I was at London barcraft this weekend and a guy came up to me and asked me what was going on and why there were 100 people staring at a screen and screaming and shouting. This man had never heard of starcraft. He had never heard of reddit. He recognised the name "world of warcraft" but didn't know a single thing about it. That might sound inconceivable to some of you guys, but he was just a perfectly normal guy who wasn't nerdy and didnt play video games, going to his local pub on a saturday night. And he was interested in what was going on.
We don't need to keep ESPN-SC2 nerdy because we'll watch it anyway because we like starcraft and we like e-sports. We need to keep ESPN-SC2 approachable so that that guy from the pub who didn't play video games will watch, find out about, and enjoy starcraft. Maybe even one day he'll come across a tiny website called team liquid and join up.
Let's get off our high horses.
For his sake.
Your logic kills me. We shouldn't be afraid to change something because we don't need to keep something as it is because a complete stranger saw MLG and liked it.
His logic was by approaching a new audience- which you will do per definition of growing- keeping everything the same might not work. Starcraft 2 has long not reached a critical threshold of self-sustaining base audience. The salaries, travel expenses, tournament prizes we see are currently not being provided by sponsors in regards of existing reach and impact- but rather as a prospect of future growth. Note, this is absolutely my personal evaluation, as I worked for a couple of years in a small marketing firm. For a conclusive answer we might want to ask the heads of industry, Sundance, Scoots, Carmac etc. My point is, if you were to tell Samsung right now "Look, we freeze everything. You will get fixed X concurrent viewers per event and there is Y people playing and following that game. And that will not change." Chance is, these numbers right now might still not be enough to really return profit. So as in everything advertising, one part of costs is truly covered and another part is treated as investment. If you were to rule out the possibility of growth, many sponsors might cut back their involvement severely. It means to settle with a comparatively more stable, but far lower standard and go back into the niche.
As how to facilitate growth- that's a whole other story. The question of "dumbing down" is only but one out of many known techniques. It is not always best, since various highly complex sports like Cricket became popular regardless. It is also unknown how much further we can extend the actual player base, in which direction the creators of the game will steer etc etc. I personally think we shouldn't constrain ourselves to either/or.
On October 18 2011 06:23 DoomsVille wrote: Yea I had a feeling this what come with mixed reviews. You either hate the idea of "selling out" and putting it on TV. Or you realize what needs to be done to get it there.
Personally, I don't want to "sell out" so to speak. I love SC2 as it is. Hell I've probably watched more SC2 matches than everyone here (I've been following this game since release and have watched every major tournament since). So yea, I am passionate about what we have so far.
But online we are capped. The television market is just an easier way to reach a much wider audience.
Also remember that what we start with on TV, isn't necessarily what's going to exist a year later. We start being noob friendly, then we transition into what we have online right now. Just like how many people started SC2 with Husky/HD (very noob friendly) and have since transitioned into loving the analytical approach that artosis or day[9] brings.
You have to capture the audience, then you can start incorporating them into the mold we currently have.
I'll take some time to respond to individual points later tonight. Some of you are bringing up awesome things that I definitely want to respond to.
This post has to be a joke...Pretend we're not nerds? we ARE nerds, its what makes starcraft amazing and terrific. You need to be more proud of who you are man, thats how you get fans. Artosis would be a great caster on television, why? Because he shows confidence, and passion. People buy into that.
Why would dumbing down the game help at all? I get the idea of being noob friendly, but not explaining how the game works, and simply doing play by play...we won't get fans that way. People need to understand the game in order to enjoy it. Again, Artosis would be fine in this role.
I REALLY hope anyone who wants to put this on television doesn't read your model for doing it.
easy way to fit in commercials is for a method to incorporate the idea of "time outs" via the pause function... the only issue with that would be it takes away from any climactic feel
I'm all for it. Whatever promotes eSports more. I think branching out to bars and incorporating barcrafting was a great first step, but honestly I don't think that ESPN will buy in. Perhaps networks such as G4 and other gaming-focused stations will look more into it. I think taking that huge step might be a little too much.
You people never seem to consider that, even if we sell out and dumb everything down as much as possible, it might still fail and end up being a gigantic waste of money.
On October 18 2011 07:51 emesen wrote: easy way to fit in commercials is for a method to incorporate the idea of "time outs" via the pause function... the only issue with that would be it takes away from any climactic feel
You can't do this, players would rage. When you're in the zone you don't want repeated pauses taking you out of it.
The CGS's failure didn't destroy anything? DIDN'T DESTROY ANYTHING? THE CGS KILLED NORTH AMERICAN CS, CS:S, DOA, AND QUAKE. I should have ignored everything you said after you mentioned this but I didn't and I agree with everything else you said.
On October 18 2011 06:23 DoomsVille wrote: Yea I had a feeling this what come with mixed reviews. You either hate the idea of "selling out" and putting it on TV. Or you realize what needs to be done to get it there.
Personally, I don't want to "sell out" so to speak. I love SC2 as it is. Hell I've probably watched more SC2 matches than everyone here (I've been following this game since release and have watched every major tournament since). So yea, I am passionate about what we have so far.
But online we are capped. The television market is just an easier way to reach a much wider audience.
Also remember that what we start with on TV, isn't necessarily what's going to exist a year later. We start being noob friendly, then we transition into what we have online right now. Just like how many people started SC2 with Husky/HD (very noob friendly) and have since transitioned into loving the analytical approach that artosis or day[9] brings.
You have to capture the audience, then you can start incorporating them into the mold we currently have.
I'll take some time to respond to individual points later tonight. Some of you are bringing up awesome things that I definitely want to respond to.
On October 18 2011 08:02 MattO1337 wrote: The CGS's failure didn't destroy anything? DIDN'T DESTROY ANYTHING? THE CGS KILLED NORTH AMERICAN CS, CS:S, DOA, AND QUAKE. I should have ignored everything you said after you mentioned this but I didn't and I agree with everything else you said.
Fair point. It obviously did leech money and hurt some scenes. I should have worded that to say that the CGS debacle wouldn't repeat itself.
On October 18 2011 08:02 GDbushido wrote: Forget about ESPN, they pander to the brain-dead Coors-drinkers of the world. I think SpikeTV would be the best fit for SC2.
I mention ESPN because Sundance tweeted about talks he is having with ESPN.
I do think it is the best possible network for SC2 though (because of its reach). But that's only if they are willing to give it a decent time slot. If they aren't, yea its better on something else.
We can't appear to be something we aren't, we aren't a "bro" community and we can't pretend like we are; we are nerds and we have to straight up and proud of it. Being a nerd in this day and age is perfectly acceptable; I haven't ever been made fun of for being a nerd in my high school, and Im very vocal about by nerdyness.
Also, Artosis would be great, the level of passion that guy has is recognizable to anyone; I'd say its one of if not his most outstanding qualities, people will notice that.
Not to mention we aren't going to get a bunch of "bro" people who only play call of duty to pay attention to Starcraft, or enjoy it, because no matter how you spin it Starcraft is a fairly intellectual game--so only fairly intellectual people are going to want to get into it.
I don't buy this. On a number of levels, this idea remains firmly on the shelf with my cash safely in my wallet.
For a start, I don't think suddenly surrounding an e-sport like Starcraft (and its professional players) with the trappings of more traditional sports will have the desired effect.
It's a chicken and egg problem. Sports personalities are routinely lionised: gifted athletes tend to be not only physically fit but also more naturally symmetrical and well-proportioned of form and feature - and thus on average more attractive than the general population. To be seen to support or idolise such men (and women, although selling SC2 to a female audience is beyond the scope of the OP) is therefore socially acceptable within the circles the OP aims to reach. And around this core has accumulated the veneer of bro-casters and attractive young ladies that embody the perception of the sport.
Yes, what SC2 players can do with a keyboard is astounding. But - to most people - astounding in the same way as the other unquestionably oddball examples of APM you can find in a thread right here on TL: you marvel as much at the decision to dedicate so much effort as at the end result. The desire to emulate the feat oneself burns within the hearts of relatively few.
Rightly or wrongly, e-sport is widely perceived - where it is perceived at all - as something you do if you can't play a 'real' sport. And, though it pains me to say it, can we claim to see things so very differently? I'm proud of what I've achieved as a games programmer, and with hindsight I'm glad my life worked out the way it did, but I can't pretend that - while at school - I wouldn't have traded a few of my grades for a pair of feet less loosely associated with the rest of my body.
The honest truth is that I didn't teach myself to code in the expectation of being surrounded by attractive ladies admiring my tight for/next loops, and I'd have felt (and looked) supremely awkward if someone had suddenly decided it should happen.
I say this because I think it's true, not because I think it's right. And it's purely cultural momentum, as S.Korea demonstrates - but it is that very cultural momentum I think would steamroller such crass and obvious attempts to 'sex up' e-sports for the mainstream.
Poker works where Starcraft would not because poker has a long-standing mystique and machismo to tap into. It is the game of endless gimlet-eyed, steel-jawed westerns. Had Clint Eastwood ever bunker-rushed someone (instead of merely researching Combat Shields once), TV today would be very different.
Secondly, I believe that TV is calcifying - not dying, exactly, but (in the way that mainstream gaming is in danger of doing) hardening around a few tried and trusted big money-spinners. I look at my 4 year old daughter and I think there's a damn good chance she'll remember TV in much the same way I remember Closedown, or Teletext. E-sports doesn't need to be reaching out into TV-land. It needs to be waiting, arms open wide, to embrace and enthrall those entering its domain. Seriously: the conversation that needs to be happening is with the on-demand side of traditional TV, supplementing their schedule with e-sports so that people tuning in to catch up on their regular shows are exposed to new possibilities in a context in which they are already receptive.
I was incredibly put off by the original post and I certainly would not watch Starcraft 2 on television in the way the OP envisioned it. I also don't really think a niche sport can succeed by entirely alienating it's core audience.
I do think that for events in general, sometimes the presenters and interviewers can be far too dressed up. I think the way one of the translators(Smix, I believe) was dressed for IPL was perfectly fine, but it looked so strange to see that next to the super-dressy attire that Anna was wearing. I think that needs to be toned down, but "borderline slutty" is certainly not the direction I would take it in.
Furthermore, the whole, "This guy(inControl) has to be involved" made no sense to me either. We don't need to push stuff so hard to try and make it seem like we aren't basement dwelling nerds, it's absolutely laughable. Nothing would put me off more than slutty presenters pushing jacked up people who aren't the top tier of competition.
We have the stories, we have the players, we have the crazy fans, we don't need to turn everything around to make it appeal to the "college crowd" while absolutely alienating the existing audience. I certainly would not want to watch Starcraft on television if done in the manner the OP suggested.
On the other hand, I may not be too inclined to watch it on television anyway, I feel the online format is perfectly fine and there really is no feasible to get live Starcraft on ESPN, it would likely have to be recorded and edited for broadcast and while the production value may be higher, I would rather just watch it live online. So in that sense, I'd be a hard person to target for televised Starcraft no matter what.
Is soccer popular because it is on tv? or is soccer on tv because it is popular?
Livestreams and the current length/format of esports fit together perfectly. Things change and we can quickly adapt online. Soccer is popular because its easy to set a game up. all you need is a ball. That is the main fanbase, people who have played soccer. In turn we can only expect that fans of starcraft are players themselves. There may be a few that haven't but overall there must be some reason for the commitment. Usually that reason is "i played that game all the time when i was little and i still do to this day. i wish i could be paid for this. oh well, at least i can watch and be awed because i know how much time and effort is put into doing these things"
We're getting the viewership already, and computers will outnumber television sets in the near future. It's only a matter of having a remote control that can turn on the pc and quickly switch between preset livestreams/bookmarks before tvs are rendered 100% obsolete. TV is not the future. Keeping the current idea strong and making sure we pass on the love of starcraft to other people, (and those people playing the game themselves (starter edition is free btw) is what will get us those eventual numbers.
Personally I don't think that selling ourselves out to be less nerdy will help anything. There's a reason manga fans are called Otaku for example. They understand and appreciate the artwork and style of the manga to a level of what the 'casuals' don't understand. I don't know many stigmas attached to America specifically for my examples but a stigma attached to a certain group of individuals means something to them. It's a stigma attached to the sport or hobby we enjoy.
If we get rid of this stigma, who do we become? Just a horde of brainless audience appealing group of individuals with no passion because our sport requires intelligence and knowledge of the game to understand. Receiving a stigma will always help grow any type of hobby or sport, and since we have a stigma of nerds, we should keep it, not sell ourselves short to appeal to people who don't understand what our stigma represents. We should inform the people who would be potential viewers of why we are nerds. Proudly.
I know for a fact if our stigma of 'nerds' gets relinquished I would be pretty sad. I take pride in being a nerd.
Wait.... Are you looking to gain the "frat boy" crowd or people that have a lot of money to spend on esports? I can tell you right now, frat boys usually don't just have a ton of time or money to blow. Honestly, I think you need to rethink what kind of crowd you think esports needs, because this one just isn't it lol.
TSN in canada does a side by side dual screen of car races on mute during commercials so you can still see everything that happens and the commercials are played, could something like that solve our problem with commercials?
On October 18 2011 08:11 Mordiford wrote: I was incredibly put off by the original post and I certainly would not watch Starcraft 2 on television in the way the OP envisioned it. I also don't really think a niche sport can succeed by entirely alienating it's core audience.
I do think that for events in general, sometimes the presenters and interviewers can be far too dressed up. I think the way one of the translators(Smix, I believe) was dressed for IPL was perfectly fine, but it looked so strange to see that next to the super-dressy attire that Anna was wearing. I think that needs to be toned down, but "borderline slutty" is certainly not the direction I would take it in.
Furthermore, the whole, "This guy(inControl) has to be involved" made no sense to me either. We don't need to push stuff so hard to try and make it seem like we aren't basement dwelling nerds, it's absolutely laughable. Nothing would put me off more than slutty presenters pushing jacked up people who aren't the top tier of competition.
We have the stories, we have the players, we have the crazy fans, we don't need to turn everything around to make it appeal to the "college crowd" while absolutely alienating the existing audience. I certainly would not want to watch Starcraft on television if done in the manner the OP suggested.
On the other hand, I may not be too inclined to watch it on television anyway, I feel the online format is perfectly fine and there really is no feasible to get live Starcraft on ESPN, it would likely have to be recorded and edited for broadcast and while the production value may be higher, I would rather just watch it live online. So in that sense, I'd be a hard person to target for televised Starcraft no matter what.
Even so, I heavily disagree with the OP.
I find myself agreeing with a lot of the points that this gentleman is bringing up.
We don't need to dumb down sc to its lowest common denominator in order for it to be a commercial success on the small screen. While I agree with the OP in that we have to bring the most basic level of explanation to the game each and every cast, i feel like pandering to the ignorant masses (in terms of getting a woman like Anna to just dress like a slut) is just ridiculous.
There's absolutely no need for that.
And when he goes on to state that even if the TV broadcasting of Sc2 is a failure, it won't be bad for the game as a whole, and we'll keep on keeping on, i disagree. If SC2 (or any ESPORT) tried to go out and get national broadcasts on ESPN / Spike / whatever, and it failed miserably, esports on tv would be dead in the water in america for another several years, minimum.
I mean, they had that gaming channel that failed, and there hasn't really been anything that's been remotely close to that since. Each failure just reassures all the big wigs up top that trying to make a tv show that's based around a video game is a waste of time and money, and they'll very quickly pull the funding.
i'm wondering if fans of upcoming music genres had discussions like this. was cobain too angsty for the mainstream? were NWA members too black?
ripping the scene apart from the inside before the mainstream even really gets a chance to see what is genuine/special about sc2 and its community seems incredibly stupid and forced.
On October 18 2011 05:52 Shiori wrote: Fucking retarded post, no offense. Selling out to attract a demographic isn't exactly what I'd call good for Starcraft. Sc2 isn't about attracting the frat boy group. Incontrol is worthless as a player and, if anything, should take up casting full time, because he does have some charisma.
Not having analysis completely destroys the experience for anyone who isn't just flicking through the channels. Perhaps you need to stop thinking that gamers need to pretend to be something they're not. Gamers aren't the problem. The problem is that there has existed a permeating stigma about the sorts of people gamers are. This stigma is unjustified and can only be rectified properly by changing the way society sees gamers, not by changing gamers and having everyone fake it.
Like it or not, the people who play Sc2 have more in common with Artosis than they do with Incontrol, and that isn't a bad thing. There are all sorts of emerging markets and demographics, but you want us to pretend to be bros so we can snipe some of the CoD crowd.
No thanks.
User was temp banned for this post.
what the guy who got banned said. Completely agree with all of his points. Watering down SC to the point where a CoD kid and a GM get the same thing out of casts is pointless--Starcraft is a strategy game. Analysis presents the game for what it is: calculated risks, weighed decisions, and hidden cards. SC isn't about explosions and gunshots. If you think that's the direction in which casted starcraft should be headed, you have no place speaking for the community.
SC can live without television. It can THRIVE without television. And if it ever is presented on television, it should be presented AS IS, and attract a dedicated audience that will attend events, pay for premium content, actively participate in the sport, and ultimately, help shift the metagame. The heart of every competitive game is its community.
50,000 dedicated fans are worth far more than 500,000 people who watch because nothing else is on.
Advertisement for SC2 Matches should be done entirely in map. Sell the living shit out of it. Its gunna be HP's Bel'shir beach with a big HP logo in the middle of the battlefield.
Or Intel's metalopolis. Microsoft's Xel'naga caverns.
Not this guy. Sorry. I love Artosis. He is the definition of a nerd baller. I could listen to him talk about random shit all day. But not him. We don’t want to be perceived as mega nerds. We want the audience (again, primarily random college kids) to be able to relate to the personalities. Artosis just doesn’t fit that mold.
And SC2 on TV (at least at the beginning) needs to be absurdly noob friendly. It needs to be almost repulsive to the diehard SC2 fans. Throw analysis out the window (sorry Artosis). We need everyone to understand what’s going on. The biggest problem with day[9] is that he is a bit of a nerd. He isn’t the ultimate bro.
This guy is. Doesn’t it seem like he fits the frat boy mold perfectly?
Is this some kind of parody of corporate culture or something? I'm imagining some marketing executive with a cigar in his mouth pointing his finger at us and yelling "guess what StarCraft community, you're gonna sell out, and YOU'RE GONNA LIKE IT"
Sorry but, cool as seeing SC 2 on TV would be, sure as hell wouldnt be worth all this. No Artosis commentating? I aint watching. Marketed to frat boys? I aint watching. Take the nerdiness, or no deal.
On October 18 2011 08:45 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Advertisement for SC2 Matches should be done entirely in map. Sell the living shit out of it. Its gunna be HP's Bel'shir beach with a big HP logo in the middle of the battlefield.
Or Intel's metalopolis. Microsoft's Xel'naga caverns.
I agree with this 100%.
That's what WC3 did. That's what everyone should be doing.
I read ur OP thoroughly, and thought about it a lot. i understand the direction you are thinking in with your post, and i acknowledge your opinions on how this evolution of sc2 esports should proceed into mainstream T.V
However. I disagree with you.
First of all i think your point of view on the situation is a little skewed and misguided. it deffinitely seems like you're trying to "sell out" what sc2 esports has been becoming over the last year, and trying to force it to conform, or at least pretend to conform, to appease mainstream audiences, and try to become something they are interested in. When instead, sc2 esports just needs time and growth to nurture itself and evolve, and it will eventually be accepted by the mainstream, your idea seems to want to force its way into mainstream acceptance as quickly as possible to throw sc2 esports onto the next level and accelerate the phenomenon. Something like this needs time, just be patient.
I have many other criticisms for this OP however its early in the morning and they're all flying in and out of my head as quickly as the last. But basically things like artosis not being the face because hes a nerd, and anna looking like a girl next door/borderline slut, incontrol being involved because he has muscles. this is all very shallow bullshit, and frankly just makes me kinda upset that u think we need to change our culture to be accepted by another. Dont get me wrong, i cringe when artosis and tasteless call me as a viewer a "fellow nerd" because i never considered myself to be one, since the only video games i ever played or were interested in were BW and sc2, and the rest of my social life was spent focused on friends and sport, but upon reflection of your post i would probably have to say i would rather dub myself a nerd and be proud that i am a member of the starcraft2 community, than to pretend i'm not by trying to force a tranformation of what sc2 is just to be accepted by ur very american stereotyped 'fratboys and bros'
I think a lot of this is very shallow. But I also don't think your point is to avoid being shallow but rather to point out that the general public IS very shallow. If sc2 should go mainstream it would go faster if it was dumbed down and focused more on trying to catch the big lazy gray mass that likes to have their own opinions regurgitated back at them from other people. I'm sorry but that is the main stream.
I just don't see this really catching on on television. Why it works on the internet is because you can just pop in and start watching any available stream. You come from work or from school or from a meeting or from a beer, whatever and you can pop up and start watching.
Since the crowd is already there on the internet its safe to assume it won't be there for TV, so TV would need to attract new viewers and this is when the problem arrives. Starcraft 2 is not like any current sports, its not like a TV show or like news you need to really be invested in it to follow it.
In order to get invested though you need to really learn it, like even though I watch Brood War and Starcraft 2 I will never watch Halo or Call of Duty or WoW. So you got to put yourself in the mainstream shoes and its not very easy attracting a crowd.
The fact that you would need to tune in at exactly 5 O'clock in Saturday to watch 2 hours of SC2 is not going to work for a new audience. Sure there will be some people that will start following it, but in order to justify it being on TV it would need to attract at least 100k people on average and we know that's very hard as no tournament so far has been able to get 100k unique people watching at the same time. Sure over time there would be around 500k people that would have watched it and around few millions views, but as SEO's would tell you, you need to look at the unique IP addresses and not pageviews and in this case the people watching at one time per TV and not overall.
I also don't agree with some of your points like how Anna or Incontrol should be there. Why not other girl? I mean why not have a girl that maybe plays SC2 decently well herself be on there and actually know a lot about the game.
Incontrol is also not the personality, he pisses me off and I don't consider myself big of a games guy and having him make awkward and stupid jokes is just very unnerving.
I also don't agree that the girl should be kinda slutty dressed, I'm sure that isn't what anyone wants to portray here. I actually think she needs to be more classical, but not over do it you know? Like she can have on of those sporty-classic type clothes.
esports doesn't TV to grow, for me it's a step in the wrong direction, what we need now is an international institution that federates everybody, something like the FIFA for soccer for an exemple.
What we need is the community having FULL control of what's going on in esports and not the sponsors, marketers or whatever suit guy it is. We don't TV because we don't need to be that much bigger, i don't want Starcraft to be dumbed down, in every sport you have detailed analysis going on during the game and i want to keep that for starcraft (well in fact i'd like to get rid of all the "play-by-play-shout-super-loud-for-nothing" casters)
If we have strong instutions rulling esports, then we can look to try and expand the PLAYER basis and not the VIEWER one, what we need is more people playing the game, not watching it.
That was an awesome post OP! I love Tastosis though and think they could easily change whatever little bit they had to to acclimate themselves to regular TV as could some of the other top casters. Anyway I wish they would go on tv so we can get more SC2 pros and exposure :-D
I don't fully agree with your assessment of an appropriate target audience. I'm not saying college kids aren't a legitimate audience, but you should consider a younger demographic as well. What about 12-18? I think that this group would be very receptive to televised SCII.
Really interesting post, I believe being on TV can only be a good thing for the long term advancement of e-sports. Although I think sticking to the 1v1 format is best. I am hoping that the big names of Starcraft can make a deal with ESPN and within the next year we could be seeing our favourite names on TV!
Some of your points I agree with (like how it should be shot), but the general idea of how you want to send Starcraft 2 to mainstream status as fast as possible is just wrong. Starcraft 2 doesn't, and will never, fit mainstream; it's an RTS, not something that's so easy to understand decision making, because that is ALL that goes on during pro-matches.
For example, you seem to think Poker is extremely popular; it is indeed. However, does everyone that watches football watch Poker? How about the people who watch basketball? What about baseball? It's impossible to get the "frat boy" population because Starcraft 2 wasn't made to be mainstream. Poker, as you stated, is similar to Starcraft 2; it's not mainstream either.
It's not just lying about our identities as Starcraft nerds, it's just trying to make Starcraft 2 cater to the wrong population. If we get on TV, we need to cater extremely well to a certain kind of population that is knowledgeable of the game; not to the average guy who is flipping the channels, because no one cares about a computer game that isn't already into it. If they see Starcraft 2 on ESPN, they'll skip it. We won't get a high viewership rating by butchering analysis.
Starcraft 2 has to cater to the people that enjoy watching it. We are nerds, but we can become the ultimate nerd community if we just heavily cater to people who like learning new things and like what Starcraft 2 is.
You know there are plenty of people who have Starcraft 2, but don't even know there's a pro scene? We don't need a massive population to watch Starcraft 2 because of a random influx in the incorrect population that wants to watch Starcraft 2 that isn't indepth and fun for all viewers. People who take a liking to Starcraft 2 will inevitably look for help in understanding what's going on.
hmmm,. as long as sc2 is doing what its currently doing already, thats all we need. I cant believe you said not artosis , Hes the best sc2 caster period, ya sure hes biased, but the guy sure can break down a strategy and explain it for everyone properly,and he sure can get you really excited about matches when he starts wiggling crazily. Where as tastless is like , "your absolutely right artosis" every cast... tasteless actually gives me the impression he does not even play the game and always says the same thing everytime.
anyway, as long as starcraft 2 is portrayed with passion and not "who we should pretend to be", it should make it just fine.
btw for casters on tv ( artosis/day9/dwheat/dapollo/husky) all come to mind. Tasteless i find is getting worst and worst each month, he needs to step up the care factor and actually start playing the game.. Listening to him casting broodwar compared to casting today is night and day, im wondering what the hell happened)
On October 18 2011 09:11 Insomni7 wrote: I don't fully agree with your assessment of an appropriate target audience. I'm not saying college kids aren't a legitimate audience, but you should consider a younger demographic as well. What about 12-18? I think that this group would be very receptive to televised SCII.
they have little/no money to spend
television makes money on ads, ads target people that have money
So children's cereals, fast food, nerf, RC and all the other commercials that play during saturday morning cartoons are targetting...?
Starcraft is very complex but one of the reasons it's so great is that you can watch a battle with little to no understanding of the game, see some really cool explosions and graphics, and know who won. The game can still appeal to kids; nerd kids.
Also, a stream would be better because you can pay for the membership, plop your kid down in front of it, and not have to worry that they're gonna be dazzled by the newest crack cereal and pester you for it. TV isn't nearly as easy. #firstworldbabysitting?
Man have you even watched soccer matches? The commentators DO talk some analysis too you know. And whenever an advertisement comes in, sometimes a goal can happen and the tv audience weren't able to catch it live. fml for them. And having the casting archons together is not a bad idea, one being analytic and one for comic relief is seen in every almost sports, it's for balance.
Agree on the team leagues having rivalries as well (thats why bw proleague is the heart of e-sports), 1v1 rivalries can happen too like boxer and yellow, flash and jaedong, but atm sc2 i dont really see any yet.
Your target audience is a bit off track too, what about those working adults who have played bw before? They will surely enjoy some sc2 games too, since they do understand the foundation of the game. And change the nerdiness? Back to the soccer thing again, they're soccer nerds too. Nothing wrong with that.
And like what others said, internet TV is the future.
I'd love to see Starcraft on TV. I'd love to see it legitimized as a real sport. I'd love for Starcraft to sell out, so I can go to Barcrafts more often.
Why does SC2 need to go mainstream on TV? This is a very important question that the OP failed to answer. It's a shame that he failed to answer it, because it's central to his argument that the avid fan's experience should "suffer" for the sake of attracting a mainstream audience. There needs to be a huge upside in order for you to convince us that we should completely shed what we love about commentated Starcraft. The OP's only justifications are "growth" and "millions of dollars" but he doesn't explain why those things are good or necessary. I for one see absolutely no need for SC2 to be on ESPN.
In any case, I think you are kidding yourselves if you're actually convinced that people who don't play the game in America will want to watch it. To them it is some random video game. It's not even an Xbox game that they would actually play. In fact it's a complicated computer game that you really need to understand and play in order to enjoy. I mean yeah it might be cool for five minutes to watch sci fi armies blowing each other up, but what about during the macro phases? Completely boring.
EDIT: And lol @ the OP thinking people will want to watch players' hands on their keyboards and the "concentration in their eyes." Again, it might be mildly interesting for 5 minutes, but to the casual viewer, there's not much actually happening with that player compared with sports. He's just staring at a screen and tapping the right keys on his keyboard really fast.
A very insightfull post, I really agree with you on the demographic part, people need to understand to hit the key demographics we need to "cheese" down the hardcore analysis and simply make it friendly for people who have not seen a game before to watch. Artosis is fine for that im not sure why you think hes so unfitting, Day9 not so much.
When people see sc2 they need to see people like incontrol and idra in leather jackets playing the game with cheesed down commentary in order to make it more appealing to the target demographic, instead of koreans in jumpsuits (sorry team slayers).
Also we really need to intensify the dynamic of foreigner vs korean, people WANT to see our local heros like idra and incontrol, and even europeans and taiwaneese players faceoff and defend our game titles against the big scary dominant koreans, it adds a new layer of excitement.
On October 18 2011 09:03 Marou wrote: esports doesn't TV to grow, for me it's a step in the wrong direction, what we need now is an international institution that federates everybody, something like the FIFA for soccer for an exemple.
What we need is the community having FULL control of what's going on in esports and not the sponsors, marketers or whatever suit guy it is. We don't TV because we don't need to be that much bigger, i don't want Starcraft to be dumbed down, in every sport you have detailed analysis going on during the game and i want to keep that for starcraft (well in fact i'd like to get rid of all the "play-by-play-shout-super-loud-for-nothing" casters)
If we have strong instutions rulling esports, then we can look to try and expand the PLAYER basis and not the VIEWER one, what we need is more people playing the game, not watching it.
LOL okay, so if we don't give Sponsors the ability to make big decisions, how is money going to flow into this e-sports business thing?
The fact is sponsors have a LOT of say in how the major sports leagues operate, and it's even more important in e-sports because, unlike the NBA, MLG doesn't really have the ability to just go find a competing sponsor (for example, if Nike doesn't agree to the NFL's demands, the NFL can just approach adidas. MLG does not have that kind of draw).
And while I enjoy the high-level analytics too since it helps my play, if you ever want to show it on TV you have to go to the basics. You know that a lot of (American) football broadcasters are idiots? They love exciting plays (eg. the blitz) ignoring the fact that blitzing statistically has a a greater chance of failure (typically the best teams in the league, aka those playing in the Superbowl, blitz less than the teams at the bottom). So even in high mainstream sports you don't get the really deep analytical thinking, exception being a few TV casters (eg. Jaworski) and some blogs with some good thinkers.
Personally, I don't give a shit what pathetic stereotyping muscle dominated guys who think with their dicks think of Starcraft. It's better the way it is.
Changing an image or demographic is fine; doing it to the extremes you suggest (kicking out popular/well known casters for the way they look, suggesting that the girls dress/act even more sexually) is dumb and, contrary to what you say, CAN hurt the growth of competitive games. Think about it. ESPN airs the version you suggest, full of manly, bro-like casters and sexy women, people tune in, see the obvious bro-fakeness trying to make it all look cool instead of portraying the scene in a genuine manner, and dismiss it as dumb.
Agreed up until the personalities section... Prosser? Why? Seems arbitrary. Artosis? There's always a place for someone with good working knowledge as well as good announcing/casting skills. Incontrol? Why? Again seems very arbitrary. Having a big guy doesn't automatically make it 'main stream'. He could fit the 'fat nerd' stereotype where you disqualified artosis because he semi-fits the 'skinny nerd' stereotype.
But IMO the biggest issue is the fact that best players (by far) are in Korea. You need the best players to get viewers (NBA vs any other league, EPL vs MLS, etc.)
artosis can be very noob friendly, the first gsl is a great example of that...
your commercial idea is terrible. just do how regular sports do it. (5 or 10 minutes intervals and pause the game, then cut to commercials and resume the game when they are done. this would also create a new style of starcraft since players would have some time to think of what to do instead of gogogo.)
Thing about televised Starcraft is that there are more people who would prefer watching other stuff than there are people watching SCII. Take MLG for example, it practically takes up a whole day, and that for three straight days.
And how many people would actually tune in for MLG online? Maybe approximately 100k viewers tops? Now compare this to a hockey game. In Canada, a hockey game easily attracts a few millions of viewers. A game lasts for approximately 3 hours (it doesn't take up your whole day). Football is a lot bigger in the U.S (simply because there are a lot more Americans than there are Canadians). Bear in mind that there are also a lot of other TV shows that attract millions of viewers.
Hardcore SCII fans are still a minority whereas practically everybody else either watches football or hockey or baseball. In terms of utility, it is not very cost efficient to broadcast SC2. So unless someone starts his own TV station, SC2 in North America is very unlikely to happen in the near future.
On October 18 2011 11:57 InvXXVII wrote: Thing about televised Starcraft is that there are more people who would prefer watching other stuff than there are people watching SCII. Take MLG for example, it practically takes up a whole day, and that for three straight days.
And how many people would actually tune in for MLG online? Maybe approximately 100k viewers tops? Now compare this to a hockey game. In Canada, a hockey game easily attracts a few millions of viewers. A game lasts for approximately 3 hours (it doesn't take up your whole day). Football is a lot bigger in the U.S (simply because there are a lot more Americans than there are Canadians). Bear in mind that there are also a lot of other TV shows that attract millions of viewers.
Hardcore SCII fans are still a minority whereas practically everybody else either watches football or hockey or baseball. In terms of utility, it is not very cost efficient to broadcast SC2. So unless someone starts his own TV station, SC2 in North America is very unlikely to happen in the near future.
I don't think you need to compare SC2 numbers to professional sports. There are plenty of TV stations that show reruns or minor league games (like ESPN2) all day. Although these don't draw the same numbers as pro sports, the TV stations don't have to pay as much for the content so it's still profitable with less viewers.
IMO the biggest thing to remember for going to tv, is don't go too big too fast.
Initially I doubt we're going to see full tournaments on TV (And, none of us should really care at this point, I'm sure we all get to see it anyway) but rather smaller "wrap-up" type shows, with a couple of the awesome matches. Give a little extra time to explain player histories before showing said match, etc.
You never want to give the audience too much, you want to leave them begging for more. (And then, you take better timeslots, and give them moar), and anyway, I'm not sure we have any of the big names ready for mainstream tv tournaments yet, Don't get me wrong, they're getting there, and between IPL and MLG they have the right ideas. Better player intros is a big one, and the other big one (IMO) is time. (Some still seem a little nervous =P)
But I really don't think they need to change the formula they have (just tweak it, and they have been doing that), other than handpicking casters more suited to the audience, and possibly having personalities for introductions to what's going on for the TV audience.
(blah blah, in short, they don't really have to change what they're doing any more than they should be anyway, just have to pay attention to what they give TV audiences.)
I am genuinely baffler by how little TL thinks of the mainstream public, making it newbie friendly doesn't imply dumbing it down.Doesn't imply analysis will have to go, doesn't mean we have to take on a dudebro attitude(which again I don't know why the focus on the college fratboy dempgraphic, if anything Kids is where the money is).
Tastosis is as newbie friendly as they are, they explain stuff pretty well, same with Day9 and Husky. Maybe tone down the high level analsys vs the shotcasting(and even then SC2 and BW are in base not that difficult to understand).
Really, if anything we are kinda TV ready, we could just tone down some rough edges(like toning down offensive 4chanish nerd jokes, which are not really that common) and I can see it doing well on TV.
I mean for most of the sport watchers it just has to look and sound exciting. The more hardcore people will go on to sites like this and discuss the games on a higher level. The casual crowd will be ok with screaming in excitement when a nuke lands or some sick hectic multipronged battle.
I get the feeling that some of you guys think that the newbie friendly casting(which I think its newbie friendly as it is for most of the casters) will now suddenly have to start to explain every single detail because the dumbies can't wrap their head in a worker minning "gold" and you use that "gold" to build an army.You guys are underrating the intelligence of the whole population or underestimating the intelligence of our casters
BTW way to scare the shit out of tl about the idea of televised starcraft 2.. While TV is indeed on a decline the total switch won't happen in a long long time. A lot of people still watch a ton of TV and it would be only good for Starcraft to catch those viewers(and sponsors, yummy)
I don't see any problem with Artosis and Tasteless, they would just need to leave out some of their inside/nerd jokes. I definitely think Tasteless would be a great face for Sc2, and Artosis would be fine as well.
If anyone is worried about viewers, I'd hope Sc2 could generate as much interest as Softball :/.
Artosis is the "knowledge" part of any casting duo and his co-caster usually assumes the role of hype caster, it's a dynamic that works in every other sport like basketball and Artosis is the absolute best at what he does. Tasteless is only better because he can assume both roles really well.
wow very thought out plan you got there, very interesting
I can't find much to disagree with
also, im shocked at the barcraft thing, first vid i saw of it! wow so many ppl ! i would go there even if the food/drink was expensive ($5 drink with refills anyone? and the free entrance thing too)
Commercial breaks can be done like Nascar or Indy racing. During a commercial break the race is in a smaller bos in the corner so you can still se the action and the commercial runs in a bigger screen. Then if there is a wreck or in SC2 case someting starts to happen the commercial stops and you go back to the game. My thought on SC2 being on ESPN is if its going to happen it could be very soon with the NBA in a lockout and ESPN possibly looking for different sports to generate revenue through. With the succes of Barcraft I think its bond to happen whether ESPN or some other channel picks it up.
I hate everything about the idea of SC on television. If you're going to do it, you need to do nothing that the OP suggests. Changing casters is a deathwish; put tastosis out there, get day9 and husky. These guys have some pretty impressive resumes. They are the equivalent of any retired sports commentator. There is no need to dumb it down any further than it is; casters already simplify games for the purpose of casting. If you want to switch out artosis because you feel like he will convey the wrong image of what esports should be, then i think you have the wrong idea.
Basically any of these ideas suggested by the OP will make sc2 into a fucking joke. As in, SlamBall joke. XFL joke. I dont care what anybody says, but if that happens, that will absolutely hurt sc2. I wont watch it, and you'd be hardpressed to find any TL'er that would. Why fix what isnt broken? I just can't see anything good coming out of a venture into television.
But, if we must, it's really quite simple. Take a tournament like IPL. Modify what you need to to make it work with commercial breaks and what have you, and i see no reason why you can't just order a PPV ticket on ESPN and watch it in it's entirety.
On October 18 2011 05:52 Shiori wrote: Fucking retarded post, no offense. Selling out to attract a demographic isn't exactly what I'd call good for Starcraft. Sc2 isn't about attracting the frat boy group. Incontrol is worthless as a player and, if anything, should take up casting full time, because he does have some charisma.
Not having analysis completely destroys the experience for anyone who isn't just flicking through the channels. Perhaps you need to stop thinking that gamers need to pretend to be something they're not. Gamers aren't the problem. The problem is that there has existed a permeating stigma about the sorts of people gamers are. This stigma is unjustified and can only be rectified properly by changing the way society sees gamers, not by changing gamers and having everyone fake it.
Like it or not, the people who play Sc2 have more in common with Artosis than they do with Incontrol, and that isn't a bad thing. There are all sorts of emerging markets and demographics, but you want us to pretend to be bros so we can snipe some of the CoD crowd.
No thanks.
User was temp banned for this post.
This is a very harsh post, and you need to learn how to bring out points without bashing someone, but in essence I do agree. Gamers aren't frat boys, we are passionate nerds. We don't need to change that, people should be proud of this. We shouldn't cater to others any bit.
funny thing about this idea is that .. it's just too forced.
Televised E-sport in Korea was just a test and it came strong with the succeeding years. This, on the other hand, sounds too forced. Idk about you guys but outside korea, e-sport is close non-existent, both being compared to the E-sport in korea and any regular sport in the world.
We have to sell out, LOL. Can you sell out more than GSL? They have pepsi as a sponsor and in every single game there is like a one minute long YOU MUST DRINK PEPSI monologue.
All gamers drink coke, all computer people drink coke & I've never even come across a regular human who drinks pepsi for any other reason than "they don't have coke?, I'll take a pepsi".
If they had naked girls having sex in between games it would have been a bigger sell out, but we're getting there. They already have kpop girls posing with players or both girls(sc1).
Maybe in the future they will advertise adult diapers and require players to get oiled up before games, but until then no more selling out possible....
I disagree with a couple of things in this OP. If you alienate the core audience by stopping in-depth commentary, then the crowds wont be there... The people who cheer wont know what they are cheering about... Instead of trying to appeal to noobs, appeal to the core gamer, and grow the core gamer audience, hell, look at WoW for this, how a game that originally only appealed to hardcore gamers got 10 million people, their grandma's and their dogs to try to understand the game without dumbing it down to nothingness, is incredible.
No one would watch any mainstream sporting event if the commentators were dumbing down all the action so much that it was un-recognizable.
And the other thing is the "apm cams" or whatever u want to call it. While it's exciting to us because we know what they are trying to do, I just posted the Losira video on my facebook and literally the first reply I got was; "so what? I type faster than that for my day job."
On October 18 2011 09:11 Insomni7 wrote: I don't fully agree with your assessment of an appropriate target audience. I'm not saying college kids aren't a legitimate audience, but you should consider a younger demographic as well. What about 12-18? I think that this group would be very receptive to televised SCII.
I agree with this. One worrying consideration in esports is that despite the growth of the 20s demographic, there is a serious lack of teenagers and high school students playing Starcraft competitively or semi-competitively. Demonstrating that esports is serious business and opening up an air of legitimacy by including it on television will certainly encourage growth in the lower age group demographics. Which brings me to my most important point; primarily that esports must be made a 'legitimate' sport by showcasing it on television.
I agree with the huge importance of the casters when games are going mainstream.
The closest thing to StarCraft being on mainstream TV we have had in Sweden was when Aftonbladet had their coverage of the Dream Hack tournament. This was not on TV but at least streamed on a major mainstream online news site with a large audience.
The problem, however, was the Swedish casters. They were not knowledgeable enough and tried to use a lot of "cool words" that they did not fully comprehend themselves. Things like that can really kill the interest of potential new gamers or just general interest in the game. This discourages the audience that already loves the game since they feel that the casters ruin the experience with their lack of insight and it scares of those new to the game since the game becomes hard to comprehend. Also, camera control / obs. Is extremely important. One can easily see when inexperienced people cast since they fail to show a lot of the main events or just move the screen too much. In short; It is difficult to be a good caster, and even more so when casting to people that does not have a lot of prior knowledge.
Not sure if my post added too much, just wanted to stress the importance of the OP. The example with Aftonbladet I think shows that one should bring someone from the community in to do the casting and not try to re-cycle LoL casters or Counter Strike casters just because they have some experience in similar fields.
On October 18 2011 15:54 oZe wrote: We have to sell out, LOL. Can you sell out more than GSL? They have pepsi as a sponsor and in every single game there is like a one minute long YOU MUST DRINK PEPSI monologue.
All gamers drink coke, all computer people drink coke & I've never even come across a regular human who drinks pepsi for any other reason than "they don't have coke?, I'll take a pepsi".
If they had naked girls having sex in between games it would have been a bigger sell out, but we're getting there. They already have kpop girls posing with players or both girls(sc1).
Maybe in the future they will advertise adult diapers and require players to get oiled up before games, but until then no more selling out possible....
SO much wrong with this post.
Not all gamers drink coke. Most gamers will drink whatever they damn feel like. I know way back when that a majority of gamers were drinking mt.dew because of the relatively high caffine/low cost shit. I know many people who drink Pepsi instead of coke because it has a better taste and also is slightly cheaper. Coke is Over priced and nasty as shit!
Are Kpop singers really pimping theirselves out? No, its how Korea advertises shit. They hire the Kpop bands because that draws people in. Compare the GSL finals attendance rate from the open season to when they introduced Kpop groups and they increase, purely because theres a pull factor. Same as anywhere and any group. Hell, you stick machine head at a Lawn Bowls event and I'll fucking show up. Has nothing to do with Sex appeal, just that the male audience in Korea (between the ages of 14-40) for Sc1 ALL listen to Kpop Girl groups, therefore they are a pull.
And its not selling out to mention your sponsors....the reason they sponsor a tournament is that you PROMOTE their goods. I mean a sport which is new will always pay hommage to the sponsors for making it happen. Even in established sports, they throw the sponsors in oyur face at every moment. My teams soccer ground, we have sporting bet sponsor us and before each game they give you the odds and deals on betting for/against the team (yes they have vendors inside the stadium). Its just something you HAVE to do when someone sponsors you.
Selling out in Starcraft would be units changing their sayings to 'drink Pepsi' or a creep spawning a huge Gskill advert....as it is we're in the 'we appreciate muchly your interest in our tiny sport'.
As for the Op, commercial breaks are definintely available in a series....between games run commercials, where the key presses are we could have a running commercial....The adverts for 'nuke noodles' could be changed to sponsorships, Adverts could appear in the background as much as anything else.....and would affect games at all!
i don´t agree with this, to succes on TV you need to cut a lot of things that makes SC2 interesting, and why hide someone like day9 why deny how the community of gamers looks like, he says it a lot he´s not ashame of being who he is, neither do we : /
Just forget about SC2 ever becoming mainstream in the western world. The social stigma on gaming is still quite big, but that might not even be the big problem
The biggest problem is that Starcraft is a very abstract game. Nothing makes intuitive sense. If you don't know the intricacies of the ruleset, nothing makes any sense. This is what sets it apart from most normal sports. You don't need to know shit about fighting to start watching MMA and have a decent idea about what is going on, since punching, kicks and chokeholds make a lot of intuitive sense. Even a more complex game like American Football. I never watch outside the superbowl and I don't know jack shit about the game or even the exact rules. But I can still enjoy a big guy slamming a somewhat smaller guy into the ground, or the smaller guy using his speed to avoid the big guy. These things can help a casual viewer to immidiately get some enjoyment out of it, so he might stick around and learn the more complex aspects of the sport.
SC doesn't have that mechanism. Watching Marauders chew through Stalkers looks really random, unless you have a decent understanding of the units stats and overall role in the game. Because of this, a strong niche-following is the best SC can probably hope for, no matter how much selling out you do.
Besides, the demographic you want to aim for is one of the most fickle there is. They might jump on the bandwagon for a bit, but will jump ship whenever the next big thing comes along.
tl;dr you don't believe in SC2 as a valid product as it is. your post is honestly pretty insulting to a lot of people unintentionally because you pretend to have knowledge of broadcasting and you don't, and you pretend to know what makes good TV and you don't. you make it seem like everyone who watches TV is some semi-retarded collar popped douche bag who wouldn't enjoy watching the game for more than 5 minutes, so you have to distract them with a bunch of nonsense so they keep watching. reality check: they will change the channel anyway if that's your plan.
the idea behind TV is not to 'cater' to anyone hoping you get it right. not with a proven interest like SC2. what you do is you take what people like about SC2, and you make it bigger and better in front of more people. if it doesn't work then it just doesn't work. sorry. if starcraft taught me anything it's that being cool is a matter of perception, not culture. if you honestly believe that what you are interested in is great, and if you can communicate that properly, the average person will listen and be able to see what you see. the fact that you are against someone like artosis, who loves starcraft more than anyone, and can communicate it better than anyone, to tell the world what starcraft is shows how naive you are imo.
it's amazing to me that you can even mention the success of poker while clearly having no realization that poker never had to pretend to be something it wasn't on TV, and poker never became popular because the people behind it sold out and tried to pander to half-interested channel flippers.
First off, excellent post really impressive lots of work has gone into this well done
Secondly, i agree with almost everything you right. To do this properly it needs alot of work, it needs a Day[9] Incontrol SirScoots people to be in charge of it, others like them to help and to work together.
Thirdly, like everyone has said, Artosis and Tasteless are more than capable to draw in viewers to ANY show and are THE BEST we have. Also i think maybe you could throw all 3 of them intogether and have a 3 cast machine like in Korea, or maybe have Day[9] as the interviewer/back stage area guy hanging out with the pro's and talking to people. Tastosis is the reason i watch ALL of GSL (what they cast) because they are so entertaining and have such chemistry between them, its great fun and would be classic TV.
Lastly, you do need the Anna and Seltzer people as part of the announcing or something but fitting them in over someone like Day[9] etc might anger US as a community rather than the people that are being targeted audience wise.
You really think Sc2 can just change its casters/personalities around, slap on a video of their hands, and be successful to the 18-24 crowd? Come on now. When your average joe is flicking through channels, if he doesn't understand the shapes and colors on the screen, how does it matter who is talking/who is presenting? So first step is to get Sc2 mainstream so that people will understand what is going on.
we need a hollywood blockbuster hit about e-sports. Kid who goes from rag to riches to bonjwa, who everyone can relate to (Rocky style). That would get it mainstream, and people would actually know what those shapes and colors are on the screen.
But i don't a agree about selling out and going full-on noob friendly. Players who watch won't like super basic analysis and non-players won't understand anyway. I remember watching SC before playing it, although i am long time gamer it wasn't very fun for me.
Maybe before every TV show there could be 5-10min intro video show 3 races some army compositions etc. Nonplayers can watch and try to understand somthing and player can go get snack while it is on.
I mean in other sports the caster don't explain what every single line on the field means. They cast the game for people who know it. You can pick it up as you watch. And it is very easy to go and try SC2 for yourself. You can get what SC2 is all about after just few practise games, unless you it is the first videogame you ever see. Blizzard has the starter edition after all for a reason.
I do not agree with most of what you said. TV is a dying media as many before me has pointed out. Internet is the new entertainment channel, Barcraft is the way it'll go mainstream. What we have now is great, entertainment for very diverse interests. Those who want the hardcore analysis can get that, those who want lighthearted fun can find that, and the things inbetween.
We have a great and diverse range of characters, this is by far a greater attraction than ONE guy/gal who should carry the success of the industry on his/her shoulders. The ones people like will flourish, while the others will sink, this is how the people get to the loved positions they are now. How do you think Day[9] got to the position he is today? Was he a just a random guy with charisma who got injected into it? No, through hard work, dedication, personality he got where he is today. MLG tried to cater to the "frat community" with their phony television hosts. It sucked so incredibly bad. Day[9], DjWheat, Husky, Tastosis, Incontrol, JP etc got where they are because people like them and enjoy their work, and this is how it should continue. The character gallery is fantastic, the storylines are amazing, we have what we need to succeed already. Look at how much the industry already have expanded. We're already heading in a very positive direction. And TV will be nothing but a distraction. In a few years time TV will beg for SC2 to be on TV. But, TV is dying, let's not go down with a sinking ship.
In the end it comes down to this, I will not support something I do not enjoy. If I'm not entertained by e-Sports, then screw e-Sports. And I will certainly not be entertained by what you are proposing.
Like many have said TV is not relevant anymore, DjWheat says it and i believe it.
How much TV do you guys see? not much I bet, i'm usually in my PC with the TV on but my movies and TV series I see on my PC and I can't see something on TV because I don't want to commit to a shedulle, I want so see when I feel like it and that can only happen in internet!
Internet > TV and lets face it SC2 is not for everyone, i've shown this game to all my friends or they see me play it/ watch it at home and i allways try and explain what it is and only 1 in 10 will get interested but it's just because he sees shit blow up hehe! They resort to playing PES while i nerd away in SC2.. This is for us the gamers and that's it..
You made some great points about publicity. I mean that is where the money comes from. You seems also quite knowleageable about football, and you seem to want the starcraft community to look like the football one.
I am furiously against that. The football community is one of the worst ever. There are a lot a bad sides in it. People taking it too much seriously, supporting a sport that they don't fully understand or even practice, and having absurd rivalry against team supporters for instance.
If you had looked the end of MLG, you would have seen that starcraft players and quite nice and kind people. They don't try to make a fortune out of the game, they just want the activity to be recognized enough to ensure that they could live by playing it, letting them to progress and master the game. It seems to be the only thing that drives them. They are friends and practice with rivals. I mean, how often do you athletes training with potential rivals ? I feel closer to sc stars like day9 and huk or MC, that I could ever be to football stars. This kindness and love toward the game and the will to master it is something that profoundly defines the community. And I would not like to see this trade off for some money. With great audience comes with great stupidity.
I'd like to see starcraft and esport develop in its own way, like it has always did and at the right speed, not trying to copy other models. The football model is not the only one. Even if its close, look at Rugby. The community seems far more interesting that the football one.
I mean, we don't want for everyone to see that we are not a nerdy bunch that stay on computer all day long, not connecting with anyone. We know that it's not what we do (even if its my job :p). I have the feeling that you want esport to become mainstream because you are having little trouble assuming your passion. Clealry, you want to show off iNcontrol for having a "real" life before starcraft. We have nothing to prove in this regard. Making it big the wrong way will not achieve that anyway. In Korea, parents does not want their child to try to be programmer too, even if it's a big part of their sport scene now.
We have to be more like day9, assume us and share our passion with integrity. And if it does not fit TV, scr*w it. The whole traditional TV model is probably going to change anyway.
In the end, as an esport fan with integrity, I am not willing to see games cut in half by commercials for the sole purpose of having more money, ruining my focus on a game. I'm not a big fan of artossis, but I am not willing to exclude him in anyway. He has dedicated his life to starcraft, and he is a part of the people that made the community like it is right now. I don't see the urge to make it mainstream anyway. I'm gradually showing the game and the community to friends who are now passionate about it too. The scene is growing (quite fast compared to Korea) just fine right now.
Like shell said, it's not a "sport" for everyone. You HAVE TO play it to appreciate it.
I understand what your point is here, and I wholeheartedly disagree with some of it. Bringing a completely dumbed down SC2 without any sort of analysis to TV would be a terrible move, and it's most likely not going to happen.
You say we need to appeal to the frat boys that would watch this while drinking. I say fuck that. If we do bring SC2 to television, it needs to be the real deal. Sure, just as Tyler pointed out on SotG (to those of you that haven't listen to the discussion about this on State of the Game, I think it's episode 51 or 52), pretty much all SC2 casts we see are dumbed down, which is natural because the majority of the audience are not pros. But what you suggest is to dumb it down beyond recognition, to make it absurdly bland. That's the biggest mistake you could possibly make. It needs to be the real deal.
I also think you greatly miss the mark on the casting (partly due to the last part of dumbing it down). In my opinion, Tastosis would be the best choice for this. You tell the audience that they gave up they're earlier lives and left pretty much everything behind to complete their dreams, and you get sympathy and respect. Also, (I guess this is mainly a preference but bear with me) Tastosis' passion shines through and really gets you going. Maybe they're not the loudest casters that shout that shit is happening constantly, that some people like, but when Artosis and Tasteless (especially Artosis) begin raising their voices shouting and go crazy, you know shit just got real. It's special because it's not often you hear Artosis go completely bananas. This is what I'm talking about: WARNING SPOILERS FOR GSL SEASON 6, I think
I like some of the points you bring up about APM and emotion (crowds cheering and so on) and a bit about the personalities (though your opinion that Anna needs to be sexed up and quit looking classy I totally disagree with).
My point is; If Starcraft 2 goes on television I want it to be the real deal and not some bastardised version, as I think that would actually hurt ESPORTS (I know you guys love reading those two words together). Get the people that know the scene to produce it. If people like it, they will continue watching. If they don't, fine, then they're not part of the audience we want for ESPORTS.
This is all mostly subjective, and I don't want to force my opinion on other people. f you agree with me, nice, and if you don't, that's fine as well. Have a nice day, everyone!
wait, what? did you just say artosis nerdness is a negative thing? that's why he's so funny, he actually has a lot of interesting things to say in a way not so many people can see, day9 is the best sc2 teacher EVER, everyone has to be in this thing, as much as they can, it probably will not last 1 month lol, so to start i think day9 probably can do it cause hes not living in korea.
Problem is that eSports will never really fit normal TV structure. Why so pessimist, You ask?
Well let's look at the core audience, even by OPs definition it's young people, ages up to 24-25 in majority. That's part of population that is already quite active on internet, be it through actually following games or just through social media like FB/twitter/etc. Why would those people want to watch it on TV, with possibly annoying commercials in middle of games (due to mentioned issue with scheduling), when they can watch it on internet, be it live or through VODs that they can pause and rewind whenever they feel like, not limited by the structure of traditional TV?
You know, every now and then some TV station in my country tries to set up a show/block about video games. Problem is barley anyone watches it. When you have any interest in gaming You are most likely getting your dose of news/info from the internet, in a more interactive environment. TV is one sided, works on limited time frames, you have to be at TV at given hour to watch the thing. Not many want/can be bothered to do so when there is just so much better alternative.
I don't even see TV as a goal for eSports in general, as traditional TV is starting to be a thing of the past. Over time more and more will switch over to internet. People already are more happy to use on-line services to watch movies they are interested in than wait for them to be aired on TV. Plenty of TV stations put most of their offer on the internet that you can watch whenever you feel like, without the constrains of TVs air time.
How often do You, personally, tune into TV for news or entertainment compared to using internet for that ? There is simply no real point in trying to waste resources on setting a TV broadcasts when there is still so much to do in terms of expanding on the internet, which not only has worldwide reach but is just so much easier for both organizers and viewers.
Unless you want to reach 40+ year old viewer groups there is no reason to do it on TV at this point.
Alright, I can't respond to individual people. So I'm going to make a huge clarifying post about a bunch of issues I see people having.
1) Artosis. I never said Artosis shouldn't be involved. I simply said he shouldn't be a caster. If you read the entire post, you'd see I'm advocating Artosis being an expert of sorts. Someone that comes on between games to provide in-depth analysis on what happened in the previous game. Sort of like a half-time show where the commentators breakdown the game and go into the specifics. This adds a ton of production value as well (replays of previous action etc.). Why won't he be a good caster? Anyone that watches the GSL knows Artosis tends to go off on nerdy rants. He'll spend 5 minutes talking about some video game from the early 90s that the late 90s/2000s generation has no idea about. I love it (because I can relate to what he's saying). But most people can't. A mainstream audience can't. And so he just doesn't belong as a caster.
2) You HAVE to market for a mainstream audience. If we are putting Starcraft on television, marketing to the hardcore audience is pointless. The hardcore audience is already watching. Why the hell are we wasting time on TV? The point of going to TV is to attract a much larger/broader audience.
3) You have to be noob friendly. Coincidentally, the perfect example came up last night. Joe Rogan does a podcast (and random shit). They happened to discuss Starcraft 2 last night (starts at the 41:20 mark for anyone that wants to watch). So immediately, as soon as one of the other members of the podcast started talking details about it, Joe Rogan completely lost interest. He didn't understand what he was talking about. And frankly, he didn't give a shit anymore. This is why you need to start noob friendly. You can progress to more in-depth shows as you start to collect the audience, but at the start it has to be noob friendly. I'm talking about noob friendly like Husky's casts were about a year ago. I don't mean just ignoring what's going on in game.
props to you for not sticking to the general point of view, and daring to state something about artosis, its clear to see you gave this alot of thought, good writeup
Part of what turned me off from watching SC2 was how fake everything seemed at events like MLG. Casters trying to inject excitement into a boring match and not fooling anyone, and then begging all their viewers to advertise this "e-sports" movement like we're supposed to be recruiting for a church. Then the shameless product placements and PR guys preparing announcements etc.
I watched the final day of MLG this weekend and it was great, the tension was there, and the player interactions were real and not forced. The casters were confident and being themselves, except for that one new guy..
TLDR - Being fake is not the way to make SC2 bigger or better. Be true to what it is, and be confident about it, and if the game's worth it's salt, it will grow. It's in Blizzard's hands.
On October 18 2011 07:39 yarkO wrote: I wanted to make a big post but I am pretty lazy.
I've thought a lot about this lately, and there are a few things that you have to do to get SC2 on TV:
Concessions-
- You probably (almost definitely) won't be able to broadcast live games The Korean model worked for this because they have eSports channels. We don't and probably won't for a long while.
- Games will be cut up In that you will have to fit into a time slot, with commercials and credits, games will not be start to finish.
Having said that, I think a slight... gimmick? might be needed. Here's what I came up with-
Ever watch Iron Chef? If not, check out this spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
It's a cooking show. Challengers come to 'Kitchen Stadium' and pick from a panel of 4 (or so) expert chefs. A secret ingredient is chosen by The Chairmen, and they have 1 hour to prepare 5 dishes to a set of judges. They eat, pass judgement, and a winner is chosen.
- a 1 hour battle 1 hour show, 1 hour battle, pretty easy right? Well, here's how it plays out:
- 7-9 minute intro (average) The show is introduced by the host, who then brings in the challenger with a brief history. The Chairmen welcomes the Challenger, who then chooses which Iron Chef they would like to battle. Next, the Chairmen unveils the secret ingredient, and starts the fight.
Over the next 5-6 minutes, the Chefs get their plan going, and a 'floor person' who monitors the battle from the kitchens gets an inside scoop with the chefs and what they're going for.
15 minutes: COMMERCIAL
The next 30 minutes or so is filled with the cooking part of the show, usually cut up with another commercial. Towards the end, they present their dishes to the judges. Another commercial comes, and then a winner is chosen.
Great show right, but what are you getting at?
Well, if SC2 wants to succeed on TV, I think it needs to follow a similar format... IRON CRAFT! Challengers approach some pros and take them on in a heated battle.
Secret ingredient? The map. You could have a new map chosen by a 'Chairman' each week.
How would you deal with commercials? How about the guy on the floor? Well the nice thing is we can use these 2 problems to form a single solution!
To anybody who knows the game, there are lulls, tense moments, and high points during a game. They can be pretty easily identified, and we can budget our commercials around these. Let's use some vague examples:
- A lull in the game because both players are going for expansions and turtling. We take off for some commercials. When we come back, the host throws it to the 'floor person', who catches up on <elapsed game time> that we missed during the commercial. Maybe points to some upgrades, army movement, a failed harass? Back to the 'host' (commentators).
- Tension! Protoss went for a FFE and his Zerg opponent has faked his hatchery and is doing a Roach all-in! Cut to commercial with a trailer: "Can he hold this? Find out when we come back!"
Here we can see viable spots that commercials can be placed into the game without really disrupting the flow.
A valid point of contention: Sometimes games are cheesy and .. short. We can solve this by either broadcasting 2 'faster' games or 1 'longer' game.
This is getting really long so my last point will be this: For Starcraft to be on TV, a lot of value will be placed in the production. Seriously, if you've never watched Iron Chef, go check it out. When you watch, imagine a similar format that's accommodating for SC2, and maybe you'll see what I'm getting at.
So basically you're suggesting a specific format eg. Iron Chef which works in terms of being able to weave in commercial breaks. I have my own thoughts on Iron Chef(definitely scripted, definitely the chefs actually DO know beforehand, what the "secret ingredient" is, etc).
I think there does need to be some way to gauge, the value of "live" versus "pre-recorded", but then again, if it's a TV show, it's safe to say it's all pre-recorded stuff anyways - hence - just casting from a replay guarantees that the viewer never sees any in-game lag(the bane of all live games).
And guys TV isn't totally dead...yet. You need to remember that we're still in the stage where not everyone uses Netflix, and we still have generations of people who still watch TV. It's going to be a good 10-20 years before TV finally bites the dust.
Why in God's green earth would anyone be against putting SC2 on TV? It would help the game in every way imaginable and add some much money to the equation. If it were on TV, I could watch it from my couch and so could countless others that aren't going to retire to their office to catch a tournament. TV might be on its way out, but it still has the vast majority of viewership, nothing really holds a candle to it.. You think 50k viewers is a big deal? TV would dwarf those numbers on the worst tournament you could think of.. why? Because more people watch TV.
I already have SC2 on my TV! And the nice thing is that i can decide myself when i want to watch, what i want to watch, when i want to pause, etc. I have a cable underneath my floor that runs from my computer to my TV in my living room. I barely watch 'real' TV, unless i'm really really tired.
I do think there are benifits if the pro competative gaming scene grows, but I don't care about the mainstream TV audience. Stuff that's adapted for a mainstream TV audience is not attractive to me. I care about our current 'nerd' casters, they shouldn't be pushed aside.
I think we should use our passion and resources to convert people to 'our side', instead of selling our souls to corporate rats.
On October 18 2011 12:09 windsupernova wrote: I am genuinely baffler by how little TL thinks of the mainstream public, making it newbie friendly doesn't imply dumbing it down.Doesn't imply analysis will have to go, doesn't mean we have to take on a dudebro attitude(which again I don't know why the focus on the college fratboy dempgraphic, if anything Kids is where the money is).
Tastosis is as newbie friendly as they are, they explain stuff pretty well, same with Day9 and Husky. Maybe tone down the high level analsys vs the shotcasting(and even then SC2 and BW are in base not that difficult to understand).
Really, if anything we are kinda TV ready, we could just tone down some rough edges(like toning down offensive 4chanish nerd jokes, which are not really that common) and I can see it doing well on TV.
I mean for most of the sport watchers it just has to look and sound exciting. The more hardcore people will go on to sites like this and discuss the games on a higher level. The casual crowd will be ok with screaming in excitement when a nuke lands or some sick hectic multipronged battle.
I get the feeling that some of you guys think that the newbie friendly casting(which I think its newbie friendly as it is for most of the casters) will now suddenly have to start to explain every single detail because the dumbies can't wrap their head in a worker minning "gold" and you use that "gold" to build an army.You guys are underrating the intelligence of the whole population or underestimating the intelligence of our casters
BTW way to scare the shit out of tl about the idea of televised starcraft 2.. While TV is indeed on a decline the total switch won't happen in a long long time. A lot of people still watch a ton of TV and it would be only good for Starcraft to catch those viewers(and sponsors, yummy)
Hold on one second there.
Think for a second on the typical American commercial. Do those make you groan on how incredibly stupid they are? For example a family goes and buys a product, then SINGS at the family table? Or just how freaking blatant a commercial is, no subtlety whatsoever, they basically have to show the product on the entire TV screen to make damn sure you see it?
For me and I'm sure many here, those are insulting to our intelligence, and contain no wit whatsoever(unlike some European ads I've seen, which are genuinely witty by comparison). But many people don't feel that way.
They see an American commercial, and don't even think about it. It goes to show you, how incredibly shallow the material needs to be, just to make sure the average Joe does go "huh? i don't get it". There are reasons why so much content is the way it is. Requiring little to no intelligence whatsoever to grasp what you're being advertised.
That's the point that the OP is trying to get across. You and I may love to analyze the analysis, explore the reasons behind the reasoning, etc. But many people just do not do that. They don't care, they get irritated if you think too far ahead or too deep. They just simply do not have the capacity to see something on a deeper level(or don't want to, unless it's a job).
On October 19 2011 03:24 Rah wrote: Part of what turned me off from watching SC2 was how fake everything seemed at events like MLG. Casters trying to inject excitement into a boring match and not fooling anyone, and then begging all their viewers to advertise this "e-sports" movement like we're supposed to be recruiting for a church. Then the shameless product placements and PR guys preparing announcements etc.
This is so true, if they really think the game is good enough to be big then this should just stop cause it's not needed and it's very annoying.
New Plan: Forget the future of esports for a while and just enjoy watching? The way people go on about esports you would think it was a religion.Sit back relax enjoy the games, there is no need to work yourself into a frenzy to convert the masses, leave that to people trying to make money off of it.
Well written, but I think Tastosis is the best choice for this. People act like Artosis and Tasteless aren't capable of being more professional or toning down the nerdiness when they have to. After the most recent GSL matches they casted, everyone said they joked around too much and were too casual, but at MLG they were absolutely professional. I'm sure they would adapt to a TV situation admirably.
Day9 would absolutely be the ideal spokesperson for the community, if not caster (if he's casting I'd like to see K9). Completely disagree about Anna though: classiness is rarely a bad thing.
Although I respect the effort put into this post, and how well-thought out it is on your end, I completely disagree with almost everything here. ESPORTS should not have to sell-out to get people to watch. We have a beautiful, complex game here that already hundreds of thousands of people all over the world enjoy. Why do we need to sell-out and give the masses a dumbed-down version of SC2 to make it work on a medium that doesn't even fit SC2? Money is great, but TV and SC2 just doesn't make sense.
On October 18 2011 05:52 Shiori wrote: Fucking retarded post, no offense. Selling out to attract a demographic isn't exactly what I'd call good for Starcraft. Sc2 isn't about attracting the frat boy group. Incontrol is worthless as a player and, if anything, should take up casting full time, because he does have some charisma.
Not having analysis completely destroys the experience for anyone who isn't just flicking through the channels. Perhaps you need to stop thinking that gamers need to pretend to be something they're not. Gamers aren't the problem. The problem is that there has existed a permeating stigma about the sorts of people gamers are. This stigma is unjustified and can only be rectified properly by changing the way society sees gamers, not by changing gamers and having everyone fake it.
Like it or not, the people who play Sc2 have more in common with Artosis than they do with Incontrol, and that isn't a bad thing. There are all sorts of emerging markets and demographics, but you want us to pretend to be bros so we can snipe some of the CoD crowd.
No thanks.
User was temp banned for this post.
I agree with this. If esports is ever going to grow, it will be by showing the world how awesome and entertaining professional gaming can be. It will be by turning the masses into nerds/gamers/whatever else you want to call it. It will not be by selling out and trying to turn us into them.
The "personalities" part is so "US". I think all those things you said are precisely the kind of things I hate about watching any sports played in the US.
sc2 on TV would only work in a handful of countries.
Ask anyone in the UK if they think video games could ever be shown on even a pathetic sattelite channel, and you will get laughed at. Theres maybe a handful of countries where an audience could be wrangled up (sweden, germany, korea, US, and a couple of others) but the idea is stupid in most countries.
If only events had a medium which was not restricted to small markets in a small number of countries, where they could broadcast in HD for low costs to a much larger market unbounded by geography and broadcast limitations - oh yes, it's called the internet.
Im all for expanding e-sports, but the way to do that is not to narrow the audience down to television, but to keep it global on the internet. Streaming quality and expertise, aswell as user connections to the web was not good enough 5-10 years back - but now it is. A huge number of people only watch TV via their computers with on-demand services and downloads.
Television is retrograde.
In terms of the great casting debate, tasteless has always struck me as resolutely lacking knowledge about the game despite his vast exposure. He only makes the very blandest of comments/predictions on plays, and even then it is tentative. I doubt he knows the timings of most vogue build orders at any given point in the meta-game.
Great write up. I really hope we see SC2 on ESPN some day. I do feel your target audience is an issue though considering the average gamer is actually about 32 or something.
What I really hope happens is that MLG/IPL can strike a deal with ESPN to televise a grand finals sometime for one of their tourneys. That would be awesome!
Edit: Forgot to add that they already do broadcast video games on ESPN in NA. They have some Madden thing on there (the football game). Not sure how popular/un-popular it is, but I think they have even had 2 seasons of it. The show is kind of like a reality show where the people play each other in a tournament type format and the cameras follow them around when they aren't playing Madden against each other for some added drama.
This has got to be the dumbest thread I have ever read and I have read some really fucking shitty threads. Applying the logic of football beer advertising to a computer game only makes sense in the a context where the two are similar 'sports'. Newsflash: they aren't.
'Sports', in the now-classical sense, are characterized primarily by the fact that all the competitors are peak human physical specimens. Starcraft players fit into a group that's half way between chess and professional ping-pong. You need smarts and you need a very narrow and specific set of physical skills. It's a nerdy niche type of entertainment and when it's embraced and marketed as such it's going to reach the people who are open to watching that sort of thing.
If you want Starcraft to become a phenomenon with a culture like professional Football (american or international) then the key to that is the cultural component. Those games have traditions and social rituals as well as an almost tribal level of attachment to local teams. This helps to build storylines that transcend the mere individual game.
Brood War has attained this in Korea not because of the way it was marketed but because it became a cultural phenomenon. This didn't happen over night and it didn't happen on purpose either. They didn't grow the game by forcing it into some formulaic, distorted caricature of another popular sport. They did their best to make it exciting for the people who love watching video games on TV.
As someone with a background in marketing this OP comes across as simplistic, naive, and juvenile.
On October 19 2011 07:02 Cyrak wrote: This has got to be the dumbest thread I have ever read and I have read some really fucking shitty threads. Applying the logic of football beer advertising to a computer game only makes sense in the a context where the two are similar 'sports'. Newsflash: they aren't.
'Sports', in the now-classical sense, are characterized primarily by the fact that all the competitors are peak human physical specimens. Starcraft players fit into a group that's half way between chess and professional ping-pong. You need smarts and you need a very narrow and specific set of physical skills. It's a nerdy niche type of entertainment and when it's embraced and marketed as such it's going to reach the people who are open to watching that sort of thing.
If you want Starcraft to become a phenomenon with a culture like professional Football (american or international) then the key to that is the cultural component. Those games have traditions and social rituals as well as an almost tribal level of attachment to local teams. This helps to build storylines that transcend the mere individual game.
Brood War has attained this in Korea not because of the way it was marketed but because it became a cultural phenomenon. This didn't happen over night and it didn't happen on purpose either. They didn't grow the game by forcing it into some formulaic, distorted caricature of another popular sport. They did their best to make it exciting for the people who love watching video games on TV.
As someone with a background in marketing this OP comes across as simplistic, naive, and juvenile.
Give this man a medal.
There are reams of books and academic articles available explaining how sports (although usually team sports) are a modern day re-enactment of our need to belong to tribes and communities and to share emotional experiences. They replace the competition and contestations that are hard-wired into our psyche.
SC2 is neither a team sport, nor one which fulfils the ability to act as a proxy for belonging or pride. You are proud of the athletes on your sports team because they are peak condition human beings who are admirable specimins, who represent your town/city/country. You love being a part of the fanbase because you get to share powerful emotions of joy, despair and belonging with like-minded people.
Going beyond this and into the production proposed - all of the management and direction involved with presenting mainstream sports are constructed around the above points. You cant take this mould and just apply it to gaming. Gaming has to create its own format and presentation.
On October 19 2011 07:02 Cyrak wrote: This has got to be the dumbest thread I have ever read and I have read some really fucking shitty threads. Applying the logic of football beer advertising to a computer game only makes sense in the a context where the two are similar 'sports'. Newsflash: they aren't.
'Sports', in the now-classical sense, are characterized primarily by the fact that all the competitors are peak human physical specimens. Starcraft players fit into a group that's half way between chess and professional ping-pong. You need smarts and you need a very narrow and specific set of physical skills. It's a nerdy niche type of entertainment and when it's embraced and marketed as such it's going to reach the people who are open to watching that sort of thing.
If you want Starcraft to become a phenomenon with a culture like professional Football (american or international) then the key to that is the cultural component. Those games have traditions and social rituals as well as an almost tribal level of attachment to local teams. This helps to build storylines that transcend the mere individual game.
Brood War has attained this in Korea not because of the way it was marketed but because it became a cultural phenomenon. This didn't happen over night and it didn't happen on purpose either. They didn't grow the game by forcing it into some formulaic, distorted caricature of another popular sport. They did their best to make it exciting for the people who love watching video games on TV.
As someone with a background in marketing this OP comes across as simplistic, naive, and juvenile.
Well said, I think trying to turn us into something we're not is not going to help. Attracting people who don't truly like it for what it is and only wants to watch dumbed down versions of it are not going to sustain the community or the culture, they'll come, check it out, and leave, that's NOT how you build a business model.
Never forget your audience is 18-24 year olds that have free time in between drinking, class and regular sports.
The audience you're trying to sell SC2 as an e-sport quite simply won't buy it. No matter what you do. No matter how many mainstream personality wannabes you bring into it. If for no other reason, they won't buy it because they won't watch a Real Time Strategy video game for fun. You can sugarcoat it for them all you want, they won't buy it.
This isn't the target audience that Starcraft should be interested in unless somebody wants to waste a lot of time and money and accomplish nothing. If you're smart, you'll be running away from that kind of "mainstream", and run very far. The closer you go to mainstream, the more eclipsed you will be by actual mainstream (/sports) television. They already do the same thing you want to do here, only they do it better, and they already have the audience you want to compete for.
The more I hear about this, the more I believe that this particular image of "mainstream SC2" is just a pipe dream a portion of current fans have, those who need some level of mainstream acceptance to feel better about their interest/hobby and less nerdy or whatever. It's not a viable way to gain any significant number of new followers AT ALL, it's just so you can tell your roommate "hey we have this hot chick doing a TV show on SC2".
...and then he'll say "yeah, that's cool, whatever".
TV isn't the way to go, and although I get why people would want it, I don't get why people keep bringing different iterations of "Starcraft on TV" up, as they've all had good reasons against them presented.
My opinion: In order to "spread" the whole Starcraft/Starcraft 2 thing (if you really want to interfere with the natural spread of an idea, which usually isn't a good idea) is to focus on local events. I know people talk about Barcraft and whatnot, but I've personally ever heard of one event for SC2 that was local to me. It might be different for some of you, but I'm sure other people are in my shoes. Build from the ground up. I know the money is in the community, can't hurt to try local before thinking about national.
is there anything major and hardcore regarding televised Esports that wont include artosis? Are you for real OP? he s the one. hes the legend. but overall i like u r idea.
The main problem with televised SC2, is that SC2 isn´t a game everyone could play and there isn´t the insentive to make them want to play, watch Poker, is so simple for the casual viewer, they just see how playing good odds can make you win a shit load of money and it seems easy, too easy, they can just go and play it, even believe they have a shot at becoming Pro, but it is the kind of game Poker is, not the aproach it has been given (although it matters as without WPT it would have never happen), SC2 has a very specific market which seems very difficult to grow by going on TV at this moment.
After reading more and more of people's views here, the more it feels like the scene needs to be nurtured and homegrown similar to what happened in Korea with BW. But unfortunately(for Blizzard), something major needs to give. And that's LAN support.
The reasons for LAN are not merely technical at this point. Sure people are going to pirate the game and it can't be stopped. The stuttering games seen in too many game tourneys really hurt the game no matter how much the expectation is that stable internet functionality should be a given(apparently it's too much to ask for in many areas).
Casters need to be professional at all times, you have Tasteless who talks about "gay", "penis" and says "fuck" too much on his twitter and also tries to be humorous all the time. Trying to be funny is not a bad thing but this is a professional sport here and I rather see "professionalism" not talking about dragon ballz, digimon, yugioh or pokemon or what ever. Maybe see a jock watching it and Tasteless starts to talking about Squirle or what ever he will think "WTF IS THIS?" Solution:
Jason LEE's his voice is perfect. Listening to him makes it feel like its a sport and not just a game. He gets really excited like the Korean commentators when something is about to happen and if i recall he makes the people spectating behind him turn around because he is so loud and excited... something that i never see from artosis and tasteless. His main weakness is his knowledge of the game, but with training and guidance he can easily be the man for the job.
Also the quality of the tournament has to be improved. Compare camera angle shots between professional Korean and Western starcraft tournaments. Whats the difference? The cameras for the western version NEVER MOVES. It might change to another camera but its the same thing it never moves at all, and simple camera movement camera technique can create drawing effects for the viewers. GSL always zooms in and out of something in the intro with some music and MLG. Just a still CAM that just changes to the player announcers and all..
I wouldn't watch it if it was on TV to be honest since it seems "better suited" on internet
That said I don't see whats the problem with it being on TV if people prefer it that way, but I imagine the majority would still watch matches over streams
I wonder if you could market SC2 to the mass gamers (People who play a large degree of games), not the hardcore ones?(Dedicated SC2/esports fans) I think that it might be possible and its a angle that hasn't been tried/discussed yet (Or maybe, IDK)
EDIT: Can't do it without Artosis man, that guy is a baller. Look at what he did to become a caster in Korea.
Excellently written post. I agree with you on every single point. Only grope I have is that you did not type it as ' StarCraft ' with the capitalized 'C' =/
For the greater good of the business, I think TV isnt such a bad idea. ESPN means more viewers means more access to sponsors. From a selfish fanboy point of view, there may not be much benefit but from a business point of view, I dont see how SC2 being on ESPN could possibility hurt the market.
It seems you're suggesting that eSports has to completely change its image entirely to fit on TV and appeal to the right crowd. We need to completely sell out. I'm sorry, maybe that could work honestly and it would give SC2 the needed appeal to work on TV, but if what it takes is sacrificing all that makes SC2 so cool and nerdy and essentially appealing to the same crowd that MLG is with "Get real!" and the like, I don't think it's worth it.
Of course, that's only a selfish fanboy perspective, but Husky has mentioned (in the episode he did with RWJ, yeah RWJ is silly but it was more of a discussion as opposed to his usual lackluster attempts at comedy) that going on TV isn't an entirely safe option.
"You have to sign all these contracts, and it's like here's your soul and everything else you have to sign away"
They kind of speculated that the internet was the new medium and that TV would eventually become less and less relevant.
I'm a marketing major and I can tell you that a lot of what's stated here is somewhat correct. There will have to be adjustments made to fit your general demographic of TV viewing audiences. The demographic of ESPN is mostly adult males which unfortunately is not exactly the same demographic as Starcraft. Starcraft's demograhic is mostly young teen males.
I don't agree with everything in the OP, but for the most part things like most noob friendly casters will have to be a must. The criticism of Artosis is accurate. People who are just tuning in for the first time wouldn't want to be called nerds initially. Though I would like to point out that most ESPN cast crews are groups of three instead of two so Artosis has a spot in the lineup.
I don't know about the need to have hot women walking around. Having a female sideline reporter is fine, but there isn't the need to have a super hot "slutty" girl walking around. Most female ESPN reporters are people who've played the game professionally or have been deeply involved in the sport they're casting. I'm sure people wouldn't be turned off if there wasn't a super hot girl on the program.
Besides those two notes there's nothing I disagree with. Remember analysis is generally done afterwards. You'll usually have a segment that breaks things down so a casting crew that does mostly play by play is more important. Some analysis is fine of course, but it needs to be quick like 5-10 seconds. I feel that Husky is probably the best for this position.
Most of op is pretty good, though I dont totally agree with caster seleection, but whatever..
There is one important wrong sentence in the op though: "Starcraft is extremely similar to Poker and Poker has obviously been a huge success. "
No its not similar at all. Poker already was seen as a legitimate "hobby" before its breakthrough in 2002-2004. Sc2 isn't, as it seen as someone nerds plays/watches.
Poker is totally different, as it has a lot of history around it, and the average joe understands the basic rules of the game. Hence he can already relate to the decisions that the pro poker do, and he is interessted in finding out how the best players play.
I really doubt sc2 on television would have any impact on the succes of sc2. For a game to be a succes in television the potential viewer needs to know the game before he watches it on tv, and be interessted in how the best players play.
Imagine this: A typical viewer wants to watch tv, but doesn't know what he wants to watch, so he zaps through a few channels. Sc2 pops on one of the channels. Will he begin watching it, and get interessted in it, if he doesn't have any interest in the game? No he wont. And I dont think that television will succes as sc2 isn't there yet. It needs to be considered a legitim game before it can get succes on TV.
Barcraft was a step in the right direction. What is the next step?
Why would we want more people if we have to change what we are? Artosis being TOO nerdy? I thought thats why we loved him. This is like changing yourself to get some girl: its not going to go as you hoped. If we go on tv we shouldn't have to water our-selves down at all.
Football is a very simple game, kick the ball into the net. You can sit down with mates and watch a game and you can follow it very easily. You may not realise some extreme bit of footwork or how truely amazing a goal was, but you can follow it and enjoy it.
SC2 on the other hand is the opposite. The game is very complex, someone new to the game may spend an hour watching it and not know what was really going on.When a player GG's, would a new viewer be able to understand why? How much would a new viewer enjoy something they dont understand and for how long would they stick with it before changing channels. Yes it is down to the casters to explain things, but how dumbed down do you go?
At the moment SC2 is still fresh, things are being discovered and casters are still figuring out what to do. The reason we'd want more exposure would be to get more money to the pro teams, this i understand. If more money was put into Pro teams, how would this be good if streams of their tournament games were dumbed down for mainstream audiences.
And what if the casting moved to something like sky? Tournaments like MLG may then only be available to people who have a sky subscription.
One last thing to consider.. SC2 is made by a company out to make money. If SC2 became mainstream, how could this affect the game or even SC3?
Personally, i like things how they are. I dont hide that i watch and play it. I like the casting and the quality of tournaments as well as players live streams. Is there any way for my experience to improve? This is the ultimate question. I just wish there was barcraft in North Wales, Bangor area that i could go to.
On October 19 2011 14:57 ih8Australia wrote: Casters need to be professional at all times, you have Tasteless who talks about "gay", "penis" and says "fuck" too much on his twitter and also tries to be humorous all the time. Trying to be funny is not a bad thing but this is a professional sport here and I rather see "professionalism" not talking about dragon ballz, digimon, yugioh or pokemon or what ever. Maybe see a jock watching it and Tasteless starts to talking about Squirle or what ever he will think "WTF IS THIS?" Solution: http://youtu.be/m-OFuXAE_AY
Jason LEE's his voice is perfect. Listening to him makes it feel like its a sport and not just a game. He gets really excited like the Korean commentators when something is about to happen and if i recall he makes the people spectating behind him turn around because he is so loud and excited... something that i never see from artosis and tasteless. His main weakness is his knowledge of the game, but with training and guidance he can easily be the man for the job.
Also the quality of the tournament has to be improved. Compare camera angle shots between professional Korean and Western starcraft tournaments. Whats the difference? The cameras for the western version NEVER MOVES. It might change to another camera but its the same thing it never moves at all, and simple camera movement camera technique can create drawing effects for the viewers. GSL always zooms in and out of something in the intro with some music and MLG. Just a still CAM that just changes to the player announcers and all..
I personally does not care if people have a life outside their jobs. It is not like we will see his tweets on a cast... I don't really know why you so desperately want to copy the current models (for anything, not just export). A lot a people (like in OWT for instance) seems to think that our current way of thinking is bad. If we can have a "sport" casted by people who seems human and not playing a role, then hurray! Also I don't care about the "looks like". First I want to see the game, then I want to have a good time with the casters in the mean time. I don't want to look smart or classy when I watch something...
On October 18 2011 06:01 divito wrote: Television simply isn't the medium for our generation. Money has been leaving TV slowly for years. As long as we keep consistent on our consumption end, being streaming and torrents, slowly more money will come online.
Many businesses are increasingly savvy at adjusting to things, and this will be no exception. TV will not save Starcraft or be a boon to Starcraft.
SC2 will grow just fine being on the internet, TV will most probebly ruin SC2 as it is now and turn it into some mainstream bullshit you get on tv thies days. Its a good post, but its made from an us/canadian tv stand point, tv in the eu is alot different (yes i have seen alot of us tv).
[QUOTE]On October 18 2011 05:52 Shiori wrote: Fucking retarded post, no offense. Selling out to attract a demographic isn't exactly what I'd call good for Starcraft. Sc2 isn't about attracting the frat boy group. Incontrol is worthless as a player and, if anything, should take up casting full time, because he does have some charisma.
Not having analysis completely destroys the experience for anyone who isn't just flicking through the channels. Perhaps you need to stop thinking that gamers need to pretend to be something they're not. Gamers aren't the problem. The problem is that there has existed a permeating stigma about the sorts of people gamers are. This stigma is unjustified and can only be rectified properly by changing the way society sees gamers, not by changing gamers and having everyone fake it.
Like it or not, the people who play Sc2 have more in common with Artosis than they do with Incontrol, and that isn't a bad thing. There are all sorts of emerging markets and demographics, but you want us to pretend to be bros so we can snipe some of the CoD crowd.
No thanks.
I have to agree with this guy. I guess televising sc2 wouldnt be bad, but giving it the "mainstream makeover" would be just...idiotic.thats the main thing i, and i believe, many others dislike about tv, everything is dumbed down, mainstreamy and boring.
besides, whats the big deal about getting sc2 on tv anyways? "internet killed the video star" Television is a dying concept, conquer the interwebs!
Artosis I never said Artosis shouldn't be involved. I simply said he shouldn't be a caster. If you read the entire post, you'd see I'm advocating Artosis being an expert of sorts. Someone that comes on between games to provide in-depth analysis on what happened in the previous game. Sort of like a half-time show where the commentators breakdown the game and go into the specifics. This adds a ton of production value as well (replays of previous action etc.). Why won't he be a good caster? Anyone that watches the GSL knows Artosis tends to go off on nerdy rants. He'll spend 5 minutes talking about some video game from the early 90s that the late 90s/2000s generation has no idea about. I love it (because I can relate to what he's saying). But most people can't. A mainstream audience can't. And so he just doesn't belong as a caster.
Artosis I never said Artosis shouldn't be involved. I simply said he shouldn't be a caster. If you read the entire post, you'd see I'm advocating Artosis being an expert of sorts. Someone that comes on between games to provide in-depth analysis on what happened in the previous game. Sort of like a half-time show where the commentators breakdown the game and go into the specifics. This adds a ton of production value as well (replays of previous action etc.). Why won't he be a good caster? Anyone that watches the GSL knows Artosis tends to go off on nerdy rants. He'll spend 5 minutes talking about some video game from the early 90s that the late 90s/2000s generation has no idea about. I love it (because I can relate to what he's saying). But most people can't. A mainstream audience can't. And so he just doesn't belong as a caster.
no. Artosis is the best caster in the world.
great. But he wouldn't do much for a TV audience. That is the OP's argument. Where's yours?
Artosis I never said Artosis shouldn't be involved. I simply said he shouldn't be a caster. If you read the entire post, you'd see I'm advocating Artosis being an expert of sorts. Someone that comes on between games to provide in-depth analysis on what happened in the previous game. Sort of like a half-time show where the commentators breakdown the game and go into the specifics. This adds a ton of production value as well (replays of previous action etc.). Why won't he be a good caster? Anyone that watches the GSL knows Artosis tends to go off on nerdy rants. He'll spend 5 minutes talking about some video game from the early 90s that the late 90s/2000s generation has no idea about. I love it (because I can relate to what he's saying). But most people can't. A mainstream audience can't. And so he just doesn't belong as a caster.
no. Artosis is the best caster in the world.
great. But he wouldn't do much for a TV audience. That is the OP's argument. Where's yours?
It would seem pretty obvious to me that if youre gonna introduce a scene like this to the mainstream tv viewers you would have someone considered the best caster in the scene, to cast it?
Artosis I never said Artosis shouldn't be involved. I simply said he shouldn't be a caster. If you read the entire post, you'd see I'm advocating Artosis being an expert of sorts. Someone that comes on between games to provide in-depth analysis on what happened in the previous game. Sort of like a half-time show where the commentators breakdown the game and go into the specifics. This adds a ton of production value as well (replays of previous action etc.). Why won't he be a good caster? Anyone that watches the GSL knows Artosis tends to go off on nerdy rants. He'll spend 5 minutes talking about some video game from the early 90s that the late 90s/2000s generation has no idea about. I love it (because I can relate to what he's saying). But most people can't. A mainstream audience can't. And so he just doesn't belong as a caster.
no. Artosis is the best caster in the world.
great. But he wouldn't do much for a TV audience. That is the OP's argument. Where's yours?
It would seem pretty obvious to me that if youre gonna introduce a scene like this to the mainstream tv viewers you would have someone considered the best caster in the scene, to cast it?
/facepalm , may be rude but i couldnt come up with a more summarizing thing to say
Shouldn't the best casters be the ones who have already proven themselves by gaining widespread popularity? Husky and Day9 brought in tons of new viewers to Starcraft, and everyone who watches GSL likes Tasteless and Artosis, so how can any of them be bad choices? Your entire argument rests on the idea that some of them are too "nerdy." What does that even mean? Do you believe that the market of males-who-don't-play-Starcraft consist entirely of the beer chugging bro/jock stereotype? Honestly, the best people to decide how to market Starcraft are the pros... actual marketers. Guys who go out and research their demographic and find out what needs to be done. Blizzard is insanely popular, and with the blunt force of Activision behind them, they can market - and they won't be hurt by the "nerdiness" of Artosis.
Personally, I think the Plott brothers have some of the best voices for the job, because they just sound like professional commentators to me. However, the volume of Day9's voice would have to be carefully moderated, lol. Catspajamas also has that same quality, imo, of a caster-like voice. Doesn't necessarily have much bearing on who the best casters are tho
That said, your other analysis was interesting, like the possibility of showing games and then creating a live-lag of a few minutes in order for commercials. Of course, scheduling is still hell thanks to variable length games, but maybe that won't be too much of a problem if it's on a channel with nothing else being shown during "dead hours" of the day (it's not like anybody's going to give prime time to starcraft anyway, not now at least)
Lastly... CASTERS DO NOT NEED TO DUMB DOWN THEIR ANALYSIS.
Sorry I don't normally use caps, but I had to. Even a noob who has no idea what's going on can listen in to in depth analysis and still appreciate it, even if it's murky.
"He's playing mindgames with his opponent, because he's known for going six gate rush on this map, to which his opponent is metagaming with a blah blah counter, so he's meta-meta gaming with a blah blah build..." ^ Stuff like that (pretend that it was actually coherent) is absolutely fine. High level players will nod their head and follow, low level players will learn, and new audiences will be like "Woah, that's cool, counter counters! To something. I don't know what six gate means. But I didn't know you could have mind games like this in Starcraft." Or whatever. The point is to have that information out there. This means you have to have low level nooby info out there as well "Stalkers can shoot air as well as ground" as well as the more in depth stuff, so the information will be out there for anybody to glean
I haven't owned a TV for 5 years... Why do some people bang on about it having to be on TV all the time?... during the beta we heard this over and over again, but the sc2 audience are all PC gamers, online with internet access and live stream has perfectly filled that void. What do people hope to accomplish by taking the intelligent game to idiot box?... its highly unlikely we'll get a million people in USA tuning into to watch the games that they don't understand. Unless it was a prolonged period of hand holding and explaining what minerals are and what gas is and how much the units cost and what each unit does and why kill the rocks and how a player plays the game, but then you alienate all the sc2 fans that don't want to hear this newbie talk.... suffice to say I think it'll be a big a flop on TV for sure.
On October 20 2011 04:14 aka_star wrote: I haven't owned a TV for 5 years... Why do some people bang on about it having to be on TV all the time?... during the beta we heard this over and over again, but the sc2 audience are all PC gamers, online with internet access and live stream has perfectly filled that void. What do people hope to accomplish by taking the intelligent game to idiot box?... its highly unlikely we'll get a million people in USA tuning into to watch the games that they don't understand. Unless it was a prolonged period of hand holding and explaining what minerals are and what gas is and how much the units cost and what each unit does and why kill the rocks and how a player plays the game, but then you alienate all the sc2 fans that don't want to hear this newbie talk.... suffice to say I think it'll be a big a flop on TV for sure.
Exactly this. There is no reason to put sc2 on ESPN or some other network because those who give a darn about sc2 anyways are already watching it through streams or vods on their computers or Ipods, pads, phones, etc...
Yet, there are still those out there hell bent on making sc2 on tv... but why? Who would watch it? How would you market it to people when those same people who moderately care barley watch t.v. anyways outside of a very few select programs? Honestly if I had a choice to watch any video game on either a TV or a internet connect device, I would go with the device 100% of the time.
And thats not such a bad thing, its because sc2 is so easily available on the internet is why its been able to flourish. But the moment you put it on a network, the rules change drastically, often for the worse.
In my opinion. There is one Saving Grace that broadcasting SC2 for a mainstream TV audience has over Current Web Live Streaming...
The power of post-editing.
if SC2 was given a 1-2 hour chunk of airtime, we could made sure only the best and most exciting games were shown. and edit in for commercials. something we cannot do live.
We could assure that TV viewers get the best experience possible watching on TV that they can. and if they want to see more... there's always VOD's.
same thing as with poker. they never go hand-for-hand... so why try to go game-for-game?
hell... 1 MLG could be nearly 2-3 weeks of content for a SC2 Show.
The biggest problem with the OP's post is that he's trying to market the game to a disinterested audience. IOW, he's targeting the wrong market for this business.
You aren't going to sell Hunting Rifles to more women by painting them pink, OP.
I agree in the sense that television would obviously give SC2 a much wider exposure. But i completely disagree with "selling out" to do so, like not featuring certain casters/personalities because you are worried about what people may think. True, the online community will never go away, but if you change the way its presented too much you may end up with two seperate communities, those that like TV starcraft and those who like online starcraft. I am much less worried about making people like it, i think TV would be better used to reach out to those who may like it as it is but have not been exposed to it.
On October 20 2011 05:28 Theeakoz wrote: I agree, doing it cant hurt us so why not give it a try.. ? Its actually quite smart to do so.
Doing it CAN hurt us.
One failed venture can set back the timeline for future success by DECADES.
The business world is one filled with fear of failure. If someone tries to force a brand before its time, and it fails. No one with capital will go near it until the memory of that failure fades.
Firstly, I'm not convinced we need Television to bring SC2 into the mainstream. The television audience is shrinking (and getting older), not growing, and the internet streaming audience is growing, not shrinking (and the vast majority made of the age-group we're looking for). If we're looking for GROWTH in E-Sports, the organizers need to do a better job of marketing their product online.
On a personal level, I know a lot of people that would watch Sc2 tournaments if they were exposed, but since they have to go out of their way to find out where/how to watch the tournaments, and when they do, they run the risk of hitting dead air (audience shots with music on repeat), they just don't bother.
The last MLG went a long way towards filling that dead air. The BETA streams were a huge success in my mind, but you had to pay for them. Now, they just need to do a better job of getting the word out. They need hype videos, and they need to expand WHERE they market their product. Because right now, all of their marketing centers around the "usual suspects". Gaming websites and forums, and twitter. And not even heavily trafficked gaming websites (for instance Gamestop/Gamefaqs are filled with braindead 14-17 year olds who have no clue how to watch these things, save for a few posters in the forums).
Anyway, I'm getting long-winded here, but my only point is that we don't need Television to bring SC2 into the mainstream, we just need better online exposure.
On October 18 2011 06:06 dubRa wrote: Why would you change nerdiness? What do you gain? You want to portray the starcraft community in a way we are not just to appeal to the mainstream?
"Man, just be proud you are a Starcraft gamer. There is nothing more cool than being proud of the things that you love." day9
almost everyone changes themselves when on the job and in front of the camera. they do it intentionally to appeal to more people, for the good of the content they're making and for the good of their own careers. that concept isn't anything new to our community.
loving sc2 doesn't mean you can't be fit, put effort into looking good, talk in a way that has mass appeal, etc. indeed, perfecting such mainstream values is the best chance at spreading your pride and love of sc2.
Seems to me that a lot of people are interpreting the post as a "Let's move to TV" instead of a "Let's supplement what we currently have with TV".
The hardcore fans would still have everything we currently have. You wouldn't have to watch the "dumbed down" versions on TV if you didn't want to; you're not the target demo that's the whole idea is predicated upon.
On October 20 2011 06:02 psychopat wrote: Seems to me that a lot of people are interpreting the post as a "Let's move to TV" instead of a "Let's supplement what we currently have with TV".
The hardcore fans would still have everything we currently have. You wouldn't have to watch the "dumbed down" versions on TV if you didn't want to; you're not the target demo that's the whole idea is predicated upon.
And this phenomenon is already happening and working fine in the online streams. Casuals go watch HD and Husky, hardcore fans go watch GSL and Day[9]. And has the quality of the scene decreased in anyway because of this? Certainly not. I don't see how making SC2 scene expand on TV medium will affect us negatively in anyway at all.
On October 20 2011 06:02 Flobsen wrote: Hey lets make everything worse but at least it is on TV, right? We sure need more Incontrol, so jelly right here
everything has already been made worse so that we could achieve the current amount of interest we have. im amazed at how many people don't realize this. there is always someone more hardcore than you who would like things more exclusive and pure and there is always someone less hardcore than you who won't give a shit unless everything is simplified and more familiar. everyone wants to draw the line at themselves because they're selfish and stupid
The target audience isnt behind a television screen. The target audience is where it has been all the time: behind a pc(or other devices that have acces to the internet). Getting on TV doesnt add anything for the audience, it just drags them away from the communication portals they use. Also, TV is expensive to be on and with a low audience its not viable.
I love watching starcraft . But if the suggestions made by the OP were implemented I would definitely no longer watch.
Personally I need analysis in game. And the misinformation spread by casters who started their careers in other fields drives me nuts- if they say something 100% wrong (not a tongue -slip but something they genuinely think is true but isn't).
I think top and/or mid-end pros with decent social skills always make the best casters. Just like in popular sports they need to know what the fuck they are talking about.
needs TLDR. didn't read all of it really so imma just say a few things. I personally would prefer sc to not be on tv, but since we are trying to grow esports and most of the community is probably for it, i say, go for it.
However, If it is put on ESPN i have a feeling that they will need to dumb it down to reach the broader Television audience. That being said, I would prefer them to use different casters than what we're used to. TotalBiscuit or the likes. So i do agree with you to not use artosis because i think his talent would be wasted.
If they were to do this thing the way that the actual community would enjoy it, i think it wouldn't be the right fit for television because it's too complex. I would prefer them to do it like this because then people that started to get involved in it would be doing it for all the right reasons, but this would also mean slower growth.
TLDR; Do this the right way and portray sc the way that it is, because that's why everyone that has gotten it to this point has loved it. Expect slower growth and possible failure... or dumb it down because it won't grow as fast if it stays as complex as it is to the regular tv watcher, but please! for the love of all that is holy! keep the online community seperate. Don't take tastosis or dayjwheat away from us to explain the basic functions of an rts every night
I just dont agree with the Artosis thing. Here is why;
If you watch ANY sports broadcast you have diff persons there, at least here in Europe. First it's the studio people;
Studio guy nr 1; He is a rather known television host that has an interest in the specific sport. He is knowledgeble but as a fan rather than an expert or a player.
Starcraft version; djWHEAT. He is perfect for this, he is used to hosting stuff and he is a massive fan of the game and knows how and when to talk about what.
Studio guy nr 2; The former player and/or coach. He is there to provide insight into the world of the sport and also some understanding in how players work and think in situations.
Starcraft version; Sir Scoots. Yes you might think he is EG biased, but I think he is above that frankly. His presence at LO3 is very nice and doesnt not emit a "LEts talk about EG" aura.
Studio guy nr 3; The anatlytical expert. Here is the guy who just LOVES the sport and usually have played himself,. He analyzes games inbetween and he draws diagrams and charts and throw in info about injuries and such. He knows everything about everything in the sport, anything from the latest transfers to what food they eat.
Starcraft version; Day9. This is obviously his role, he knows A LOT and he can explain it in a good way for everyone.
Casters/Commentators; Tastosis. Why? First of all they function together like no other caster pair. And second they both show diff sides of the starcraft player, Artosis is the slightly nerdier one who still is funny and knowledgeble while Tasteless is the good looking nerd that people can identify with even if you are not a nerd. They are PERFECT.
And also, why the fuck would we want to portrait ourselves as something we are not? We are nerds when it comes to Starcraft. Sure most of us are not actualy geeks if you follow the stereotype, but let people find that out for themselves!
On October 20 2011 06:02 Flobsen wrote: Hey lets make everything worse but at least it is on TV, right? We sure need more Incontrol, so jelly right here
everything has already been made worse so that we could achieve the current amount of interest we have. im amazed at how many people don't realize this. there is always someone more hardcore than you who would like things more exclusive and pure and there is always someone less hardcore than you who won't give a shit unless everything is simplified and more familiar. everyone wants to draw the line at themselves because they're selfish and stupid
I understand that we have sold out to a point already, but I don't like the attitude that because we've taken one step we can just run the whole marathon.
There has to be some sort of threshhold, yeah?
One of the main reasons Starcraft is so cool to me is that it's actually real. People aren't born in to having big hands to catch balls, or height to make lay-ups. If you're good, it's a feat of mental strength, something that has actual meaning in the modern world. And at some point, the conversion of physical sports to mental symbolizes this shift in values.
As such, you could imagine I think this is very important, and delegitimizing this triumph by ditching people who deserve their positions like Artosis so we can appeal to frat boys, in my opinion, turns Starcraft in to just another venue where bullshit defines how far you go instead of the content of your mind and character.
Yes, I know obviously that bullshit like hype and such still control some of Starcraft, but encroaching even further is something that should be avoided at all costs.
Tyler speaks the truth. People here are over-zealously guarding their "pure" and "exclusive" passion. It's the same outcry you see in just about every thread in the BW forums. "Why should we compromise?" "So what if it's hard to get into and there's a steep learning curve?" "We were here from the beginning!" You should care because if you want other people to get into it, the barrier for entry has to be lowered. If you don't care if more people get into it then don't complain about low prize pools/few sponsors/not enough quality tournaments etc. People here are starting to regard the current nerd niche of Starcraft as some sort of perverse badge of honor.
Listen... what some of you don't understand is that casters are already doing this for us... And we still love it... The content is dumbed down so that people can understand. Do some of you gold and silver nerds really think you understand the game at a level that day 9, Tyler or any other popular caster or player does. You understand what day 9 is saying because he dumbs it down a little bit. Even masters level players, like myself, have a fraction of the knowledge that these guys have. It already is dumbed down so why not go further and make it where not just goldies can understand but even people who don't play can get a good feel for the action.
I feel that the comparison can be equal to poker. Everyone who watches poker is like oh shit this is easy why didn't he do this and this and this. I have such a good understanding of poker now. And then they go play a shit ton of money to find out that hmmm maybe there is something pros know that I don't
We need that for Starcraft 2. More people will watch SC2 and say hey I can do that why isn't he doing this and then they buy the game and play and watch future tournaments and BAM we have ourselves a SC2 boom. I think if we do this we need to do it like poker. This is my opinion xD
On October 20 2011 06:02 Flobsen wrote: Hey lets make everything worse but at least it is on TV, right? We sure need more Incontrol, so jelly right here
everything has already been made worse so that we could achieve the current amount of interest we have. im amazed at how many people don't realize this. there is always someone more hardcore than you who would like things more exclusive and pure and there is always someone less hardcore than you who won't give a shit unless everything is simplified and more familiar. everyone wants to draw the line at themselves because they're selfish and stupid
I understand that we have sold out to a point already, but I don't like the attitude that because we've taken one step we can just run the whole marathon.
There has to be some sort of threshhold, yeah?
One of the main reasons Starcraft is so cool to me is that it's actually real. People aren't born in to having big hands to catch balls, or height to make lay-ups. If you're good, it's a feat of mental strength, something that has actual meaning in the modern world. And at some point, the conversion of physical sports to mental symbolizes this shift in values.
I agree with you on the Artosis part, but a lot of very good players in all sport are not born with innate talent. The hands for instance grows with practice, you're not born with big hands. The only thing you're born with is your height and that's arguable, what you eat, which sports you practice, how much can all change your final height for the better or the worse (think of the gymnasts).
The only part where esports does not differ from real sports is in the ratio talent/practice at pro level. If you're a pro, you need to have at least a little talent and train a lot wether it's physically or mentally it's all the same, training is training and if you begin soon enough it will change your body and/or the way you think.
Also I think that the popular casters we already have would be great faces for SC2. Tastosis, Day 9, DJ Wheat, Husky... They all bring something to the table that is different and can show the many faces of SC2. I think one problem for Starcraft going mainstream is the constant repetiveness that goes on, especially if you don't understand the subtle differences between strats, and builds and having these multiple personalities that approach these dull moments differently could add value to sc2 not take away from it just because they are too nerdy or don't understand the game well enough.
People don't need to change. Starcraft will be lose its charm if you make people change into something the public eye would rather see. It just screams sell out and disillusions the current fans. Just like certain other gaming shows that have tried and failed.
We don't NEED Anna Prosser. There's plenty of other girls that could do the job too if you gave them the chance. Although i'm sure she'd do a good job. There's tons of talented and attractive girls in our scene and quite frankly it's disrespectful to them saying we NEED one. They don't need to change either, they're fine just the way they all are. Anna included. We don't NEED geoff. Geoff is a funny guy and a great personality but to say that it won't succeed without him? Wut. There's tons of personalities in Starcraft, to say we need one is ridiculous.
And i don't really want to rant about the commentating thing. You've completely dismissed chemistry and think putting two people together will 'just work' because it does on paper. I really can't understand the Artosis not working thing either. That guy is one of the absolute main personalities in the scene. He IS one of the faces of esports and one that i'd be really proud of.
I got quite sad after reading all that tbh. If people think and want others to change important aspects of who they are just so this can succeed on a mainstream level. Things like dressing provocatively just for sex appeal when they dress just fine already. Then i'm happy with just the way things are and personally just wouldn't watch it. It would feel too fake and lose the sparkle it currently has.
On October 20 2011 06:02 Flobsen wrote: Hey lets make everything worse but at least it is on TV, right? We sure need more Incontrol, so jelly right here
everything has already been made worse so that we could achieve the current amount of interest we have. im amazed at how many people don't realize this. there is always someone more hardcore than you who would like things more exclusive and pure and there is always someone less hardcore than you who won't give a shit unless everything is simplified and more familiar. everyone wants to draw the line at themselves because they're selfish and stupid
I understand that we have sold out to a point already, but I don't like the attitude that because we've taken one step we can just run the whole marathon.
There has to be some sort of threshhold, yeah?
One of the main reasons Starcraft is so cool to me is that it's actually real. People aren't born in to having big hands to catch balls, or height to make lay-ups. If you're good, it's a feat of mental strength, something that has actual meaning in the modern world. And at some point, the conversion of physical sports to mental symbolizes this shift in values.
I agree with you on the Artosis part, but a lot of very good players in all sport are not born with innate talent. The hands for instance grows with practice, you're not born with big hands. The only thing you're born with is your height and that's arguable, what you eat, which sports you practice, how much can all change your final height for the better or the worse (think of the gymnasts).
The only part where esports does not differ from real sports is in the ratio talent/practice at pro level. If you're a pro, you need to have at least a little talent and train a lot wether it's physically or mentally it's all the same, training is training and if you begin soon enough it will change your body and/or the way you think.
Uh, I really don't think this is the case at all. You can't train to grow your hands. That just doesn't happen. Regardless of whether eating some random herb will grow your hands a centimeter, someone who already has big hands can do the same and it's null. This isn't really something worth discussing.
Being born with innate talent isn't all encompassing what I'm championing. I'm championing mental strength over physical. Yes, some people get by on raw apm, but that's more of a starcraft 1 problem than 2, which is a big reason I like 2 more. (Please do not draw the conversation away to discuss this point, it's inconsequential. )
The difference in my mind, is the main focal point of Starcraft, physical strength is the main focal point of most other sports. I respect mental strength, I do not respect physical strength. Thus; I respect Starcraft.
If Starcraft becomes a community made up of bullshit like image, I'll stop respecting it. I understand we need to not look like geekchiefs so people will give us a chance, but that's an extremely marginal amount of effort and a sacrifice within a threshold I'm perfecting willying to accept.
To sacrifice actual content for appeal is just disgusting.
Honestly, I don't think you can legitimize SC2 as a sport yet, we would have to wait for the expansions for it to be complete, although I agree with most of what you said I don't see it happening now
On October 20 2011 07:29 markz4 wrote: Honestly, I don't think you can legitimize SC2 as a sport yet, we would have to wait for the expansions for it to be complete, although I agree with most of what you said I don't see it happening now
I think this is like the elephant in the room no one is talking about. The game is going to change so much in HotS and LotV that everything we're doing now can hardly be considered static. A lot is going to change, there are going to again be radical imbalances that will need to be quickly addressed to ensure there is no regression in legitimacy. The looming presence of these expansions makes the scene extremely volatile, and from a logistical standpoint, we shouldn't take any major risks until they're released. I almost think of the period up until LotV as a prep period for when the true Demon's Souls starts.
I wouldn't want to see it on ESPN, but being on TV doesn't have to be bad. The difference with BW though, is that that scene started on television. The foreign SC2 scene is mostly an online thing.
I would like to add a counterargument to you saying that Artosis makes nerd references.
It's the same with a lot of casters, Tasteless does it as well:
As obviously seen in this hilarious video it shows Tasteless does nerd references as well. Artosis, tasteless, both are what makes the perfect casting duo. I feel completely uncomfortable without the two together, I mean look, they can both even attract female viewers
People don't realize that starcraft 2 is very similar to tennis matches. Tennis matches still get played though and there's not much time for commercials and such
On October 18 2011 06:06 dubRa wrote: Why would you change nerdiness? What do you gain? You want to portray the starcraft community in a way we are not just to appeal to the mainstream?
"Man, just be proud you are a Starcraft gamer. There is nothing more cool than being proud of the things that you love." day9
almost everyone changes themselves when on the job and in front of the camera. they do it intentionally to appeal to more people, for the good of the content they're making and for the good of their own careers. that concept isn't anything new to our community.
loving sc2 doesn't mean you can't be fit, put effort into looking good, talk in a way that has mass appeal, etc. indeed, perfecting such mainstream values is the best chance at spreading your pride and love of sc2.
On October 20 2011 06:02 Flobsen wrote: Hey lets make everything worse but at least it is on TV, right? We sure need more Incontrol, so jelly right here
everything has already been made worse so that we could achieve the current amount of interest we have. im amazed at how many people don't realize this. there is always someone more hardcore than you who would like things more exclusive and pure and there is always someone less hardcore than you who won't give a shit unless everything is simplified and more familiar. everyone wants to draw the line at themselves because they're selfish and stupid
Thank you. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. I'm just glad you're pointing this out. Hell I don't even want what I wrote in the OP to happen. I would rather SC2 get more hardcore. I simply wrote what I think needs to happen to succeed on TV and appeal to a more mainstream audience.
On October 20 2011 07:46 Horse...falcon wrote: Wow that montreal reaction video was more impressive than the actual response to Huk winning at Orlando. No wonder MLG wants to go to Canada.
+ Montreal and Toronto are close enough to road trip back and forth. MLG goes to either and I'll be there
It might have been said before but maybe the players can agree to pause for a commercial every 15 minutes? Secondly I think the actual event needs to be a fun environment where spectators are clearly zoned in on whats happening. Sometimes the camera should focus on the crowd after a big play just as in a basketball broadcast.
Also there should be physical cash at the event to let the audience (and channel surfers) know the players are competing for big money. Kind of like what they do in the poker tournaments.
One more thing. Aren't the booths a bit unnecessary? I imagine a more intimate setting like the poker tourney where the audience sits in a circle around the playing area. The players are sitting facing each other with small screens blocking their peripheral vision
The only bit I liked was about the appearance being too official but Anna's dress has been discussed way too much anyway.
The biggest sport industry in the world, football, functions with 45 minute long halfs and no commercial breaks during them. Sure, there are brand logos all over the stadium and the shirts of the players but that's different. You don't need commercial breaks every 15 minutes to be successful. An RTS without the analysis is nothing. Yes, the first time viewers can get intimidated by analysis but if you want a proper industry, you want people to keep watching week in, week out. And people learn fast, so in a few weeks you'd be left with a bunch of players who got bored by the gimmicks and want the real deal. No way they'll stick around just for non-stop fluff casting. You were right in saying that the viewers need to see the players pushing the limits. Well, there's no way they'd see that without proper analysis. Day9's casting is more nerdy than Artosis in my opinion. If anything, Artosis sounds a lot more like a real commentator (read: the type of commentator you hear on TV), while Day9 sounds like he's talking to some kids. Yes, this is what makes him noob friendly - but it also makes him sound much less professional than Artosis. And so on, I got bored.
I completely disagree with almost all points. I think in trying way too hard to be "mainstream" and "cool" everyone is forgetting why we really enjoy this.
I don't think Sc2 needs to be televised. Seems like streaming is going to be the next big mainstream media thing anyway. Sc2 is already very available in the medium so we can just wait for the masses to catch on to the trend and Sc2 can reach new markets through a medium that Esports is already very well established in.
If SC2 wants to find a spot on cable television, ESPN is probably not the best place to go, especially on Saturday afternoons/evenings where NCAA fills up the time slots about 80% of the year. Also, though ESPN does Target the 18-24 age range, they also Target the 25+ market that is much, much larger than the 18-24 range. I would think a channel like Spike or maybe even stretch it out to TNT/USA or HDNet (Mark Cuban's channel) would offer more focus for the target age range and have less competitive alternatives to air besides SC2. Even those would probably not suffice for an online community due to a lack of distribution.
I personally think 18-24 is incredibly too small to warrant a TV program, but if they went for the 18-45 market then I could see ESPN being a player if they air tournaments on a weeknight, similar to what Gomtv does for Up/Downs and Tourney play.
On a non-SC2 related note, don't delegitimize yourself and your post by posting idiotic comments like this:
You realize that literally millions of people watch Nascar (which is just watching cars crash)
Especially after motorsports lost one of their better drivers this past weekend.
While I do agree that getting SC 2 televised would draw in lots of money and in general be a good thing, I do not agree that we should bastardize it and alter it just so it fits with the traditional mass media.
First the exaggerated noob friendliness is wrong. Yes I agree to a certain extent you need to tone it down a notch so that people can get into it, but dumbing it all the way down just for the sake of attracting a crowd, who in the end might not be interested in the first place, seems wrong to me. Just because some people fit in a certain demographic doesn't mean they are all the same, changes are, the ones that play video games will catch on fast and learn the game, then they will get borred if the casting is excessively noob friendly. On the other spectrum we have college students that might be way more out going, athletic etc and will be attracted to sports more, I don't agree to dumbing down the casting of SC 2 just to attract these people who might not really be interested.
I believe what Tastosis did at the last MLG was nice, they tried to gently explain the workings of the game, without sacrificing analytical casting. So, if it works, don't break it, keep casters as they are, a play by play caster with an analytical caster, and just have them explain the game one small chunk at a time but still focus on casting the right way in general.
Creating rivalries is a stupid and out dated concept, if it doesn't exist in SC 2, don't force it. While some rivalries like MC - IdrA and MC - HuK do exist, I believe we should let them form naturally, not push it, just let the players focus on playing, SC 2 isn't a physical sport like football, it shouldn't have rivalries like football either.
Also I can't believe you just suggested doing away with 1 vs 1, just because it isn't spectacular enough. That would be the most stupid thing and the most atrocious crime committed against SC 2. SC has always and will always be about 1 vs 1, the game is most balanced for 1 vs 1. If you make team games mainstream you then force Blizz to balance for both 1 vs 1 and team games which was never completely planned and it could end up breaking the game we know and love.
Again you approach SC 2 from the wrong angle, it isn't a sport, it is an esport, it doesn't have teams, it has individuals, it has friendly rivalries (in general), it shouldn't be focused on team play but on the individual.
With the female hosts you again seem way to bent on pushing towards a certain demographic, I believe Anna and Rachel did a fantastic job at IPL, I don't see the need to push this any more.
In conclusion, I believe we should stick by what we know has made SC 2 a success and not alter it just for the sake of getting a bigger audience quickly. believe SC 2 audience will continue to grow slowly but surely, putting it on TV would help, but don't treat it like a regular TV show or sport because it won't work. Keep the kind of casters we know and love but with a bit more emphasis on newbie friendly. Keep the 1 vs 1 format, but indeed add the extra cameras to capture the players emotions and his fingers. Don't mess with the SC 2 scene, don't force stupid rivalries, don't prod into what shouldn't be touched, I'm sure some friendly rivalries can develop, we don't need stupid slag talk rivalries that exist in other sports, we are better then that.
If it becomes televised the following will happen, the hardcore people will start to watch and since it is on TV they will invite their friends to watch it, phone them, text them, tweet them etc. It spreads slowly but surely by word of mouth from the hardcore to the other people, the hardcore slowly nudge in new viewers and also have the double role of educating them in regard to SC 2, lessening the burden on the casters. Those not interested won't watch no matter what, leave it like that, we will still gain viewers thanks to the hardcore.
But I guarantee you if you dumb down SC 2 casts for the sake of a quick buck, if you introduce stupid rivalries just for the sake of people hating someone then you will alienate the hardcore and potentially hit the scene in a negative way.
Please for the love of what deity you believe in do not dumb down SC 2 just to gain quickly an audience that we will gain anyway slowly and patiently without compromise. I love this game too much to see it dumbed down.
On October 20 2011 07:46 Horse...falcon wrote: Wow that montreal reaction video was more impressive than the actual response to Huk winning at Orlando. No wonder MLG wants to go to Canada.
+ Montreal and Toronto are close enough to road trip back and forth. MLG goes to either and I'll be there
Absolutely, 6 hours if you're driving slow.
Toronto is convenient because it's also accessible to people who have passports from New York, Ohio, and Michigan.
And for those who are willing to put in the 8 hour drive, it's also accessible to those from Illinois, and it's 7 hours from Indiana.
Montreal is convenient for many from the more eastern regions as well, but I'm not as familiar with all of the logistics.
On October 18 2011 06:06 dubRa wrote: Why would you change nerdiness? What do you gain? You want to portray the starcraft community in a way we are not just to appeal to the mainstream?
"Man, just be proud you are a Starcraft gamer. There is nothing more cool than being proud of the things that you love." day9
almost everyone changes themselves when on the job and in front of the camera. they do it intentionally to appeal to more people, for the good of the content they're making and for the good of their own careers. that concept isn't anything new to our community.
loving sc2 doesn't mean you can't be fit, put effort into looking good, talk in a way that has mass appeal, etc. indeed, perfecting such mainstream values is the best chance at spreading your pride and love of sc2.
On October 20 2011 06:02 Flobsen wrote: Hey lets make everything worse but at least it is on TV, right? We sure need more Incontrol, so jelly right here
everything has already been made worse so that we could achieve the current amount of interest we have. im amazed at how many people don't realize this. there is always someone more hardcore than you who would like things more exclusive and pure and there is always someone less hardcore than you who won't give a shit unless everything is simplified and more familiar. everyone wants to draw the line at themselves because they're selfish and stupid
Thank you. I don't care whether you agree with me or not. I'm just glad you're pointing this out. Hell I don't even want what I wrote in the OP to happen. I would rather SC2 get more hardcore. I simply wrote what I think needs to happen to succeed on TV and appeal to a more mainstream audience.
I have absolutely no issues with StarCraft simplifying itself an making adjustments to get on television, I simply feel that your approach to it absolutely idiotic, particularly in the extremes that you take it. Ignoring the hyperbole, you've made it clear that you are serious in regards to whom you think we should target and how and your how is simply to flip around everything that currently has worked for StarCraft, effectively alienating it's core audience. I do not think this will work.
I think that putting forth the most muscular player and girls in slutty outfits will appear desperate and somewhat pathetic, focus on what StarCraft really is, just make it easier to get into. You can still use Tastosis, they can still have nerdy references, just tell them to tone it down, tell Tasteless to take charge with familiarizing new players(which he sort of does) and Artosis with more in-depth analysis toned down for newer viewers. I also think the outfits the presenters wore at the IPL were a little over the top for the event, but my response to that would not be, "Anna needs to be more slutty", I think "Girl next door" is what I would use here.
I don't understand the aversion that some people have to making it easier for newcomers to get into something like StarCraft, I for one, heavily disagree with Tobi Wan's thoughts on DotA casting and his aversion to explaining things for newer viewers. What I do have an issue with, is heavy dumbing down and in this case, not just dumbing down, but a complete distortion of what StarCraft is all about for what I don't think will actually get more people interested, I think showing people what StarCraft really is, and just making it easier for them to understand will be more effective.
Just want to remind everyone that ESPN are the fucking masters of marketing a product, and just handling sports in general.
Particularly, I want to say that regarding the format, people should not be worried about the placement of commercials. These guys somehow manage to slip 5 minute solids (look it up) into Football games halfway through a quarter, and never miss too much of the game.
I also think that, regarding commercials, people need to remember that the pause feature exists. Taking mandatory pauses every 11 minutes for 3 minutes is perfectly feasible, and also greatly raises the quality of game-strategy IMO. Call it prep time or some shit.
That's all I really wanted to say. Frankly, if you're being negative about this, then you are a fucking dumbass. This can only have the verymost minimal negative effects, at least by comparison to the guaranteed positives.
Sorry but changing the scene would damage the scene to the current fans and it wouldn't appeal to non-fans because they would smell fakeness a mile off. Other sports have tried to do this to branch out into other demographics and when it failed they went back to what worked for them. The adage be true to yourself and people will accept you fits here. If this scene were to stand up on television it would have to do so on its own merits based upon the culture that has brought it to this point. Either there is a market or there isn't but repackaging it to this extent basically destroys the culture its currently growing from.
I think your drastically underestimating the nerd acceptance in our culture or perhaps you dont spend a lot of time with adults who more often than not play games, have kids that play games, have friends that play games. For example the guys I watch (american) football with at the bar over beers ALL play xbox together, usually shooters and the sort but they don't look at me weird when I say Im working my way through some rpg. In fact 2 of them are playing through mass effect one because I loaded up ME:2 to show them that you could shoot stuff, have a story, and feel like your in an action/sci-fi movie instead of all rpg's being cute anime stuff with dragons and slimes.
These same guys would take one look at starcraft 2 pretending to be the NFL or NBA and be turned off by the copycat attempt to appeal to them specifically because it would be incredibly obvious the genre was being malformed in an attempt to sellout to exactly this demographic.
People like certain sports because they either grew up playing it even on a very amateur level or had friends that did and understand the sport. Another way is that they are introduced to the sport and taught how to watch it and enjoyed it enough to continue to do so. They want to then watch the pros do it and become invested in certain teams either because of location or family or familiarity. This is slowly happening with esports both through people playing it and word of mouth. Look at how SC2 practically took over MLG in the course of one year. Its because people that liked other games were introduced to it, began to understand it and form preferences for players/races etc and became fans. My point here is that people dont turn on tv and see a cheerleader or a ring girl, hear a jock/frat boy and go "hey I want to be invested in watching these people compete."
I can't speak for other cultures but since this had a huge ESPN banner Im going to assume were mainly discussing a majority American audience. I really don't intend to be rude in saying this but this whole post comes off as a kid still in, or fresh out of high school that thinks the adult world works on a jock vs nerd mentality where the two don't overlap. Trust me I grew up with that and it even pervaded culture in my early twenties but it simply isn't like that anymore at least in the adult world of the Unites States. Yes you will always have some people that are hard-core anti-anything that doesn't drip bullets and testosterone but that ever shrinking audience wouldn't watch a televised video game competition no matter how you dressed it up with chicks in "slutty" clothes or casters that (in your opinion) appeal to a frat/jock mentality.
In closing a sport stands or falls with an audience based on production quality, consistency, and competitive appeal. Yes there is shallow marketing stuff, yes there is fluff, but that is added to gear the audience more towards why your putting up with advertising or to market things you might want to buy. The fluff is not why people watch and then become loyal followers of a sport, understanding and appreciating the competition is.
While I would totally agree that getting more people into Starcraft 2 would be awesome and television is the way to that, but I really love how Starcraft 2 is now. Starcraft is so incredibly different from the other sports and that is one of the main things I love about it! Let's take MLG for example.. My friends and I all went to MLG Anaheim this summer and it was absolutely the greatest thing for me. Tons of gamers all over the place, cheering at every huge play on both the main stage and smaller stages, 3 days for only 30 dollars and who can forget the unlimited free Dr. Pepper. This is drastically different from other sports out there where fights break out over who should win or who is better, where they charge you 15 dollars for fries and a drink and where the players are hidden away from the fans. One of the best parts of MLG was being able to go up to and talk to players such as Destiny and QXC for several minutes (and im sure huk or day9 would do the same thing if only they didn't have 200 people waiting in line to get a signature and shake their hand..). I Love this and I love how it is different. I hope that SC2 is not changed to be like every other sport... I would rather have a smaller community of awesome people and great tournaments rather than HUGE numbers of asshole fans who will fight you if you like Huk more than Idra or vice-versa...
On October 20 2011 08:32 TheKRoc wrote: That's all I really wanted to say. Frankly, if you're being negative about this, then you are a fucking dumbass. This can only have the verymost minimal negative effects, at least by comparison to the guaranteed positives.
You're completely wrong. I guess you never followed professional counter strike? CGS? Well basically once you get a slot and the numbers don't impress, thats it, Starcraft is over on TV for ever. Jason Lake (Complexity owner) has repeatedly warned the "suits" don't care. When you go on TV people are in it for the money, this is not some charity bullshit. Why the fuck do we change everything about what we love just to impress some marketing suits :S
It seems to me that a lot of people feel the need to "evangelize" e-sports as if they are religious missionaries or something. Also I feel they are not comfortable with the negative stereotypes attributed to "nerd" culture and feel the need let everyone know that e-sports is cool etc before they can publicly proclaim they enjoy it.
i entirely dont agree with this article, i think if we have to conform to get on tv it will hurt what we have now.. which i dont really like,
On top of that TV IS on the way out, faster than you realize i think. mobile and Internet have been exploding and tv has been dieing out pretty damn fast actually, I was reading a magazine (wired a few months ago iirc) and it was showing viewer ship changes from all the multimedia formats and TV has decreased by a couple % over the last year while mobile has exploded and internet wasnt that far behind as well, if the trend continues (which it isnt going to change anytime soon from what i see) than i really dont care about a format that will eventually be not nearly as big a deal as it used to by(it will basically be like radio, not to say radio is dead or dieing or that it will be gone anytime soon, but it will be marginalized and not mainstream like it is currently.
I personally dont think it will happen and also dont give one whit if it actually does. if it does and fails, still got at least some people into it. if it does and succeeds its only temporary anyways so.. meh i personally dont want to watch dumbed down shit and neither does anyone ive introduced to starcraft, so what if its not casual friendly as RL sports are, half the reason i watch tournaments is for the casters, they are far more important than in other sports as they help fill in the dead space that is inherently there due to how long many games go on and that it is very quiet in the first couple of mins in every single game so.. no i am keeping my casters just the way they are, they are perfect for what they do.
On October 20 2011 07:55 scaban84 wrote: It might have been said before but maybe the players can agree to pause for a commercial every 15 minutes? Secondly I think the actual event needs to be a fun environment where spectators are clearly zoned in on whats happening. Sometimes the camera should focus on the crowd after a big play just as in a basketball broadcast.
Also there should be physical cash at the event to let the audience (and channel surfers) know the players are competing for big money. Kind of like what they do in the poker tournaments.
One more thing. Aren't the booths a bit unnecessary? I imagine a more intimate setting like the poker tourney where the audience sits in a circle around the playing area. The players are sitting facing each other with small screens blocking their peripheral vision
Booths are 100% necessary, unless there are some magical 100% soundproofing headphones and blinders available. Crowd reactions can definitely affect gameplay.
for a person who never games to accept any game as a sport, showing sc2 isnt the way to go. this would be great for gamers, but the mechanics in sc2 isnt hardcore enough to make a non-gamer understand why it takes skill.
take a look at bisu playing broodwar, even the simplest task of producing units or changing your rallypoint looks insane, and you can clearly tell how insanely talented he is.
Im not saying sc2 takes no talent, im saying its hard to grasp from a spectators point of view if you are clueless.
but sure, i wouldnt say no to tv, but i think there are games who are easier to use to charm new people into gaming, then sort of transition into starcraft.
trackmania 2 for example, or even an fps, fps games are really easy to understand.
interesting post...and i understand tv catering to mainstream...if we do make starcraft on tv maybe we don't need to cater to "fratboys" or "jocks" or anyone else, we are nerd ballers and proud of it!!
Way too classy. That’s not what we are trying to portray. She needs to be the ultimate girl next door; someone professional yet down to earth. Maybe even borderline slutty. But definitely not dressed up in an evening gown. That’s not the casual, fun, relaxed environment we want to portray. The other important decision is casters.
News flash: you want to be mainstream, people on mainstream TV dress pretty well in general. Sorry someone on stage decided not to dress like a total social out-cast for a moment, but this isn't' a bad thing.
Also, where I'm from what she's wearing is casual. casual == not formal. That's not formal, that's night out with gal-pals. She doesn't look fun to you? lol... what is fun? sweat pants?
I find this topic very interesting because I love marketing and am currently working in a university athletic department in said field. The problem with national tv is trying to reach too broad of an audience in such a short timespan. E sports would likely be more effective if it started streaming on a stream like espn3 where a large audience can reach it through their xbox and you can either ensure that the audience most likely enjoys video games from the start, while also becoming dominating in the Internet streaming segment where most of the target audience is going to fall. E sports currently is a very niche market and in the future it may become more widely accepted, but for now will most likely grow with other video games like cod and halo because there is more participation in those games than in Starcraft. Blizzard already has laid out tools so any noob interested in learning more about Starcraft will eventually find themselves watching a stream. Getting more noobs is exactly what blizzard tries to do everyday by making free trials of the game with the race that every person can identify with and I must say that strategy is actually ingenious. I hate to say it but Starcraft being on tv won't help it any but at the same time it won't hurt it either.
You made some great points in this post, most I agree with some not, but I believe I can sum it up easily.
Dressing up something for the sole purpose of making it a sport doesn't help esports grow. If people tried to make tennis look like football they would good laughed at and ignored. We want to make our own audience and grow it, not pander to new ones.
Sexualization I get that some of you were offended by my desire to adding some sexuality to it (by saying Anna should be borderline slutty). I said borderline, not outright slutty. Keyword is borderline. I don't mean she should be dressed like a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. Also, you have to look at this from an American perspective. There is a huge difference between American and European television. Watch a soccer match. The only women you see are cheering in the audience. Watch american football/basketball/ufc. They have scantily dressed women dancing every time the sport pauses. I don't want that of course. But it should show you why I want to sexualize it just a bit. Again, I don't want Anna (or anyone) to go full on slutmode. I just want them to not be so classy and tone it down to what you'd see young women typically dress like nowadays.
The sexualization thing has nothing to do with slutties and boobies. What is really wrong is portraing woman as sex objects. That´s so misogynous - so creepy and nerdy. The girl-next-door thing is even worse for that matters.
Anna´s dresses like a boss cause that´s what SHE wants people to see her like. She´s autentic, not a sex doll. Its that kind of woman that can really be an embassador and even bring females to e-sports.
I´m male btw.
PS: Oh yeah, congrats and thanks for all the thinking. Keep on truckin
On October 20 2011 11:06 nerak wrote: The sexualization thing has nothing to do with slutties and boobies. What is really wrong is portraing woman as sex objects. That´s so misogynous - so creepy and nerdy. The girl-next-door thing is even worse for that matters.
Since when has misogyny been a trait of the nerdy?
take a leaf out of korean BW...even in the only country where watching starcraft is culturally acceptable (and therefore common), the big events have something that everyone can enjoy.
not everyone at the starleague finals is there because they have a great interest in BW and know WTF is going on. sure, most of them know the basics, but there are also many fans who are there to see bisu *cough* and other performances. in other words, it is portrayed as a "game + variety show" backed by large companies if you get what I mean, so it naturally draws many people in.
also, the finals are special events simply because they don't happen very often. for the hardcore fans, they have lower key events like the regular proleague matches to watch on TV.
televised sc2 is an altogether different thing, especially for international viewers. there's just too many events, all of them focusing on sc2 alone, no clear team identities as of yet, and no event feels really special. If you fail at this GSL then no worries there's a new one starting soon! And if you fail at that too, no worries, there's an international tournament circuit that will be happy to let you play in it!
So I wonder where the suspense and story lies in that. When you reach this kind of saturation point, I doubt many people will pay to watch a channel that showcases more and more of the same. But as long as they are streamed free over the internet, at least some viewers will be happy to watch.
On October 20 2011 11:06 nerak wrote: The sexualization thing has nothing to do with slutties and boobies. What is really wrong is portraing woman as sex objects. That´s so misogynous - so creepy and nerdy. The girl-next-door thing is even worse for that matters.
Since when has misogyny been a trait of the nerdy?
Yeah I missed this one too. I've no problem being traditionally "male" in opening doors and pulling out chairs for my date, and *gasp* leading in a dance but I'm pretty sure my latent and hidden nerdness kept me from saying "get me a beer woman" while I relaxed and watched the latest game of football/huk crushing nerds.
On October 20 2011 11:06 nerak wrote: The sexualization thing has nothing to do with slutties and boobies. What is really wrong is portraing woman as sex objects. That´s so misogynous - so creepy and nerdy. The girl-next-door thing is even worse for that matters.
Since when has misogyny been a trait of the nerdy?
Sorry, I got short on vocabulary. Over-fantasizing about women is nerdy.
But if I was to consider only the social-awkward nerds I know (they´re a minority, but they give everyone the fame anyway), I´d say 80% of them ARE misogynous. And being misogynous seems nerdy, which is something the OP is worried about.
Saying a women should dress more like this or that erotic fantasy is pretty misogynous anyway, maybe just not in an aggressive fashion.
Selling out and destroying the major parts of the e-sports scene will hurt the major demographic rather than help it. The majority of people that watch will remain and always be StarCraft 2 players (obviously). To totally harm the majority of viewers to attempt to appeal to mainstream audiences that may or may not get hooked onto such a complex game is a rather foolish idea in my opinion.
I see nothing wrong with leaving e-sports to be on the streams. IMO there should be a stream pass for all major tourneys so you can just pay one flat fee per year.
Wow that barcraft in Montreal when Huk won was some crazy nerd chills I hadn't seen that video before.
I'd like to have SC2 on television I'm still torn on keeping it the way that it is (nerdy) and making it more mainstream, I'd really like to have eSports grow but I really don't want it to result in the game being dumbed down
And as for the Artosis thing, I still think that he would be an amazing addition to TV even if he comes off a bit nerdy (even though I don't think that he does). He has a great ability to tell you what the players are leading up to do and what they are doing causes, rather than just play by play.
I completely disagree with the notion that Artosis wouldn't be a good caster in this situation, he would be amazing as he always is and if these people like SC enough to really watch it - they will like Artosis.
guys at every mainstream things there are group of elites that actually know what they are doing, those of you enraging about selling out can be those guys really. its about attracting more viewers and I can't see why this would be a bad thing for sc2. yes there will be an introductory phase for new viewers but i don't see why they would eventually catch up, then flourish
liked most points of your post. except artosis is love, and tastosis cannot separate
Artosis is pretty good at explaining things and hyping people up. He's also got a good caster voice and a very good and clean way of speaking, one of the best.
Too many SC2 casters have bad voices or speak poorly.
Not sure why you would want to be on TV at all, i guarantee within 2-4 years Internet will have taken over TV as the primary medium for entertainment of all kinds within the home. Makes no sense to try and break into a dying medium. OP doesn't really have a clue to be honest.
On October 20 2011 09:30 yousaba wrote: for a person who never games to accept any game as a sport, showing sc2 isnt the way to go. this would be great for gamers, but the mechanics in sc2 isnt hardcore enough to make a non-gamer understand why it takes skill.
take a look at bisu playing broodwar, even the simplest task of producing units or changing your rallypoint looks insane, and you can clearly tell how insanely talented he is.
Im not saying sc2 takes no talent, im saying its hard to grasp from a spectators point of view if you are clueless.
but sure, i wouldnt say no to tv, but i think there are games who are easier to use to charm new people into gaming, then sort of transition into starcraft.
trackmania 2 for example, or even an fps, fps games are really easy to understand.
I have a feeling you're trolling, but I'll respond anyway.
Your Bisu example is ridiculous, BW casts look no different from SC2 casts (except of course for the much prettier graphics that are easier on the eyes). The observers don't watch the players in First Person. The obs oversee the map and all the viewer sees are units appearing, and then moving around the screen. And no, the FP Vods don't impress anyone who doesn't play, it's too difficult for someone with no experience to figure out wtf the guy's doing. To a viewer who doesn't play, all they'd see is a screen jumping around the map. At the end of the day, the most impressive things on-screen to the average viewer is unit-micro, and SC2 has plenty of amazing moments.
FPS games have a clear disadvantage compared to RTS games as well, because First-Person isn't conducive to spectating, and floating views result in players being blocked by obstructions. And Trackmania... really? It's a racing game dude, they have racing in real life.
TV is a one way conversation, it's not interactive. Streaming is a better platform when you offer awesome things like 4 streams at once and you tab around forums all the while a competition is going out.
Why would you want to downgrade and limit yourself to that.
I do not believe there is a point to this discussion. If a TV channel decides to broadcast, it will bring the amount and type of production that it deems fit. If the channel thinks that Artosis doesn't fit their profile, they won't hire him and vice versa. They will also talk to people that have experience in this business and copy the parts they like.
The major issue I see with all of this though is the exclusivity that goes with broadcasting something like MLG on TV, in the US for example. If I was an executive of a channel I would probably not make a contract that allows them to also stream the event on the Internet. Reason enough for me to not like it.
First things first. Blizzard needs to set up a LAN network. Could you imagine if a live event was on TV and all of a sudden a drop screen pops up. Game over, re-game. Blizzard is ridiculous in this taking so long. They've authorized GOM but still lack the ability to support the need of LAN tournaments and events. All it takes is a small team and in no time problem solved and everyone stops complaining. Irritating to say the least. I support the ESPN idea, I think it will be cool and great fun!
On October 20 2011 12:04 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: Selling out and destroying the major parts of the e-sports scene will hurt the major demographic rather than help it. The majority of people that watch will remain and always be StarCraft 2 players (obviously). To totally harm the majority of viewers to attempt to appeal to mainstream audiences that may or may not get hooked onto such a complex game is a rather foolish idea in my opinion.
I see nothing wrong with leaving e-sports to be on the streams. IMO there should be a stream pass for all major tourneys so you can just pay one flat fee per year.
I think its worth a try, players need to be able to make a good living out of this OUTSIDE of Korea. More viewers would lead to more cash in the scene. I don't think this is a big sacrifice to take, as we don't lose much, maybe have a separate stream for the hardcore starcraft fans like ourselves. Think about the possible benefits this leads to for the growth of the Starcraft 2 international scene and esports in general.
Really nice post. We all want the growth of eSports, right?
It's funny that u call out Artosis for being too nerdy and then a paragraph down argues that Day9 would be perfect!? I for one find Day9 10 times more nerdy than Artosis.
I'm also not sure I agree on conforming sc too too much to please the television format. If you censor out the giant personalities like Artosis (or the giant nerds if u will) then the whole thing loses its charm and instead becomes impersonal, fake and commercialized. I wouldn't want that.
lets take HD for instance, he would probably be very suited for television however, a lot of people complain that his passion for the game comes off as fake. I don't think that's true but its certainly a risk u take when trying to conform....
If they were to do this it would have to be done perfectly...I would love somewhat of a NA vs EU kinda thing.. i believe that would pull in a lot of viewers, mabye have choices for casters? Day [9] and apollo on one, and tastosis on the other?
If huge numbers start watching SC2 in streams then it will make a _natural_ progression to TV, otherwise no. You don't go to TV, TV comes to you.
This. SC 2 will make it to TV when it's profitable for the different networks. Forcing SC 2 on TV earlier may backfire hard and scare off future investors.
If this is what it takes to put sc on tv, then my vote is "Fuck this". We don't need to target The Present. Where do you think most of entertainment is going to take place after 10-15 years? On TV? Gimme a break. All Tv sets will be connected right to the internet and once you wake up in the morning and start your tv, all of your favorite shows, sc2 recorded streams and commentaries will pop up right there.
There's a computer show on one of our local TV stations, and a few weeks ago they did a Starcraft 2 related episode. And at the end of the show they did a sports vs. e-sports parallel, ending with a cast of a game (don't remember which one, all I remember it was a TvP).
In any case.. it just didn't work. Can't point out exactly why. Perhaps it was the caster, who wasn't too horrible, but was desperately trying to hold middle ground between talking to a viewer who knows absolutely nothing about the game and viewer who knows the game well, in the end catering to neither. Perhaps it was the fact that SC2 on TV just looks odd. Perhaps it's because I am used to enjoying the casts as personal thing, not something I like watching with other people, especially those who know squat about the game and all they see is some weird buildings and tiny armies moving about killing each other hither and tother.
So.. yeah. I just don't see it happening right now. Not on a large scale in any case.
I don't understand some of the sentiment in this thread. Just because the cast will have to be a noob friendly cast automatically means that they're selling out?
Honestly Artosis and Tasteless will probably never have a seat at the casting table anyways. You guys forget that they're contracted with GomTV. They can't just contract themselves with another TV station it'd be a conflict of interest. Most likely MLG will use casters they're directly contracted with.
I don't see how trying to go for a larger demographic is bad. The only issue really is the first issue the OP pointed out with getting the matches to work with a standard TV schedule. Having a noob friendly cast panel I don't think is a large cost if it means we can market ourselves to millions of others.
On October 20 2011 22:28 shortsteve wrote: I don't understand some of the sentiment in this thread. Just because the cast will have to be a noob friendly cast automatically means that they're selling out?
Honestly Artosis and Tasteless will probably never have a seat at the casting table anyways. You guys forget that they're contracted with GomTV. They can't just contract themselves with another TV station it'd be a conflict of interest. Most likely MLG will use casters they're directly contracted with.
I don't see how trying to go for a larger demographic is bad. The only issue really is the first issue the OP pointed out with getting the matches to work with a standard TV schedule. Having a noob friendly cast panel I don't think is a large cost if it means we can market ourselves to millions of others.
TeamLiquid has been working for years to keep the ignorant, the arrogant and the dumb out. Why ruin that?
yea i think you would need to always be able to see the keyboard view of each player, because that could be a nice selling point to people who don't play sc2.
just something as simple as "hot damn, look at how fast that guy is!" could be the ticket really
On October 20 2011 19:23 Sawofhackness wrote: Its very very simple.. If they put *game you don't already play* on TV how long before you would switch it off? And remember, you are already an RTS nerd. To a non-RTS nerd, a "normal" person, its just a bunch if colours moving on the screen, it means nothing to them.
If huge numbers start watching SC2 in streams then it will make a _natural_ progression to TV, otherwise no. You don't go to TV, TV comes to you. The only SC2 that should make it to TV are the documentaries, which already have, e.g. the National Geographic doc on Korean SC1 scene. /been having this debate for almost 15 years
first off, it isn't simple. second off, in korea people who watch SC (Fangirls, anyone?) don't necessarily play it. You may say "well, that is korea!" but it isn't true. I watch SC2, and don't own the game. I've played it, sure, but my computer isn't good enough to run it, so I watch streams and play SC1. This is backed up by the LoL viewership numbers. I guarantee not everyone plays it. Of the 180 million unique views of MLG this weekend, I would wager over half haven't bought a copy of SC2, so I disagree with you.
For you saying "it is colors on a screen", and while I could respond with "what isn't", I will just argue that the op addressed this in terms of making it noob friendly (where he suggested Sean "Day[9]" Plott, of the Day[9]Daily, who not only is a great caster and teacher, but was also a great player who was around A- level PGT and smashed countless nerds at American World Cyber Games.)
"If 'huge numbers' start watching sc2...." over 180 million isn't huge?
I still don't see SC2 get picked up. TV is tightly bound to location, time and audience. While on the internet you don't have that problem, because with 1 broadcast you supply your entire audience and you don't obstruct any other program you would like to do on that moment.
On October 20 2011 23:17 Bill Murray wrote: ["If 'huge numbers' start watching sc2...." over 180 million isn't huge?
SC2 on American tv will never work, especially with live games, just too much variance. The only way it would possibly work is if a whole channel was dedicated to sc2/other esports and could be formatted around that. It will never work on ESPN2. TV has set schedules and commercials, SC2 is the opposite in every way. What happens when you have a bo3 scheduled in a 1 hour program and the first game takes 50minutes? Are people really going to want to go out of their way to watch 1 single game of sc in many cases? Games would have to be edited, paused, skipped, broken up etc.
The caster would have to dumb down the game to shit to appeal to a wider audience and that would piss off a lot of fans here as usual (half the people here complain even when a caster isn't very close to artosis smart or calls a strat/play/outcome wrong). If only sc2 fans watched, it couldn't even get near the numbers of tournament streams, and those numbers would not be good enough for tv. Sc2 streams can be viewed all over the world by anyone, not everyone has ESPN2 on the other hand, and do they even have it at all in Europe, Korea, Australia, etc?
An actual tournament would take ages in 1 or 2 hour blocks, unless you skip many matches. Some games end up being awful and TV needs to stay consistent. You have a shitty episode or two because of awful games, or unpopular players, that people turn off and suddenly the show is canceled.
I dont know see why many sc2 fans would want to watch sc2 chopped up, editted, mutilated, interrupted by 3 minutes of commercials mid-game etc just because its on tv when they can watch it in a much better format online. I'm sure most fans would tune in for the first episode or two just for the novelty of it but would quickly get bored with seeing it in such a butchered format.
SC2 is not similar to poker at all, you have to be clueless to compare the two. The only similarity is you have to sit down for both. Poker is 1000x more accessable than SC2. All you need is a $2 deck of cards (not a $60 game and a decent computer) or someone who has a deck (everyone). The game is EXTREMELY easy to at least learn and understand, you can explain the rules and basic play in about 2 minutes and with a little luck catching cards a complete noob can win some hands against anyone. You can't do that with sc2 at all lol. SC2 is also not a social game when broadcasted like poker, in poker you have a bunch of guys sitting around a table chatting pretty often and you can really see their personalities, in sc2 you have 1vs1 with "gl hf" "gg" as the only conversation. Most importantly, poker is also not seen as "nerdy" by your average macho american male who watches ESPN, average dudes have sat around playing poker with their buds over a beer and some cash before poker took off on tv and frat boys play it all the time.
I don't really think your average joe schmo who watches sports is going to tune in and see some nerdy video game he knows nothing about and doesn't understand whats going on and not just flip the clicker to the other hundred channels he has access to and actually understands or even complains to ESPN about showing some "nerdy shit" on his sports channel instead of another football game. Funnily enough I could easily imagine sc2 on espn2 having more average-sports-watching-bro anti-fans calling for it to be canceled than fans actually watching it.
I agree that some of the casters we have in the scene right now are not suitable for mainstream television. I personally don't find the English casters as exciting as the Korean casters (I've been watching BW since... the beginning). Let me clarify this, I'm not saying that the English casters are less knowledgeable or under-qualified. Even Korean on OGN/MBC casters make mistakes, despite their years and years of experience. What sets them apart though, is the ability to build momentum and excitement with their casting. With English casts, usually done in pairs, I find lack of momentum/excitement because both the casters are focused on analysis and details rather than making it exciting for the average viewer. The trio-format of MBC/OGN has worked so well because while one of the three plays the analyst role, the other two are supplementing him with comments and fillers that are both factual and exciting. There is this build up of tension and giant release through GEEEEE GEEEEE that makes the ride really exhilarating with OGN/MBC broadcasts.
All of this being said, I agree with your selection of Day[9]/Tasteless over Artosis (or similar). If I was in the position of ESPN, I'd pick Day[9] to be my main caster for both his name value and expertise, then pick two young/attractive/passionate individuals with some sports casting experience, male or female.
On October 20 2011 23:44 darkest44 wrote: SC2 on American tv will never work, especially with live games, just too much variance. The only way it would possibly work is if a whole channel was dedicated to sc2/other esports and could be formatted around that. It will never work on ESPN2. TV has set schedules and commercials, SC2 is the opposite in every way. What happens when you have a bo3 scheduled in a 1 hour program and the first game takes 50minutes? Are people really going to want to go out of their way to watch 1 single game of sc in many cases? Games would have to be edited, skipped, broken up etc.
This, I think it's a huge issue.
What pays the network's bills are advertisers. When you have games of varying lengths, do you break after 20 mins, then bring the viewer back 2 minutes later and say, "too bad you didn't see what happened?" It just kills the action.
Other sports have a perfect progression, like quarters/periods or innings in baseball where there's a clearly delineated break where they can throw to advertisements. There isn't that in a SC2 match.
in korea it worked cuz they didnt really have a national sport or that much sport at all infact. in the US you have all kinds of shit and alot of it. I honestly think there is no way of getting SC2 on TV, maybe if some rich sc2 fan bought a channel or something...
The way I see this working is starting off with late night (maybe only 11:00), 30 or 60 minute episodes of casters watching and commenting on a replay on a station like Spike or G4. This could test the receptiveness of the audience in a reasonably accessible time slot while not immediately spending a lot of resources into all the things necessary to run live matches (For example, working out how to incorporate commercials--a must. I'd rather not have players have to pause the game for commercials or anything like that, at least during the beginning. I don't know what kind of sacrifices I'd tolerate later). Also, such a slot would be accessible to their primary demographic. Think of Iron Chef as an example of a novel, niche competitive arena that grabbed the attention of a few late at night before eventually becoming a household name and one that achieved a degree of popularity never anticipated.
The show would have some kind of charismatic host/ caster that welcomes new audiences to the game. He'll be the face of the show, selling both the idea of the show and the appeal of the show with his personality. The person I think would best fit this is Husky. Say what you want about his analysis, but you cannot deny that he has a lot of clearly visible and infectious enthusiasm for the game. Also, he's pretty newb friendly and undemanding, and his youtube videos are readily available for people intrigued by SC2 from watching the show and wanting to see more. I think he would be a great entry way for new fans.
Casting with him would be a more hardcore analyst, who is free to be as nerdy as he wants. He'll be the side figure that will develop a huge following of fans for his character and expert commentary. During casting, he will be the go to guy for analysis from time to time. The host will do a lot of hype casting and a bit of his own analysis, but he'll occasionally defer to the analyst with things like "X, what do you think about Y deciding to build Z right now." The analyst will say something like "Well, W, recently a lot of players in Europe have found that Z is a great follow up for V because [...]. Y has been experimenting a lot with this lately, and has shown some promising results." Something like that. The person I think would be best with this would be Day9. He's a loveable goofball whose knowledge, charisma, and skill at explaining things simply are undeniable. In addition, his videos are also readily available for new fans wanting more. Shameless plugging could also be beneficial. Furthermore, he'll be around to attract and appease the established fans.
Perhaps you guys might suggest a reversal of those two characters or other casters. Perfectly understandable. Realistically, I don't see Tastosis being available for something like this. Day9 and Husky seem like more feasible casters for something this small. Also, a lot of Tastosis's appeal with us comes from a familiarity with their personalities and a desire for more analytic casting. These aren't things entry level fans would have.
In addition to the pair, the show should feature a random pro player guest casting each episode. The guest would probably have less room to speak, but would occasionally add his own sage advice and opinion to add flavor to the commentary. This could be a way of introducing the audience to the pros, besides the ones playing the match. Also, it gives the audience an opportunity to meet an actual professional player, the likes of whom they are likely unfamiliar. This could also help promote the image of this as being more than just a bunch of gross, faceless, teenage basement dwellers playing games with each other but rather a serious competition with real and likeable adults. Continuing, the established fans would have an opportunity to see some of their favorite players on TV.
I'd really like for a show like this to attract new fans without alienating the established ones. This should by no means replace streams, but rather attract new people to them. Please, let's leave elitism out of this discourse.
On October 20 2011 20:31 Order wrote: If this is what it takes to put sc on tv, then my vote is "Fuck this". We don't need to target The Present. Where do you think most of entertainment is going to take place after 10-15 years? On TV? Gimme a break. All Tv sets will be connected right to the internet and once you wake up in the morning and start your tv, all of your favorite shows, sc2 recorded streams and commentaries will pop up right there.
"Where do you think most of entertainment is going to take place after 10-15 years? On TV? Gimme a break "
This. I feel sc2 and the way its broadcasted, by streams VODs etc, is the future of entertainment, of ALL entertainment. Why bother conquering the past? I personally wouldnt mind sc on tv, but honestly, i bet curling is a great sport for instance, but i sure dont stay tuned to watch it if i happen to see it on tv, just for the simple reason that i dont play curling. Why would anyone stay tuned to watch sc2 if they dont play it..
sounds like someone just graduated from business school and is nonetheless currently unemployed. leave this stuff to the pros. E-sports is flourishing under the current stewardship, I don't really see them bungling this up.
Skip TV. Focus on internet streams. Don't buck the industry and go 'backwards' to chase legitimization. Our numbers are already speaking for themselves.