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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 00:51 Talin wrote:On February 21 2012 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 20 2012 23:51 NoobSkills wrote:On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least. Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined? proleague matches are not predetermined. NASTL =/= Proleague proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal. Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games? It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out. a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match. Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before.
Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers)
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48991 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:12 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 01:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 21 2012 00:51 Talin wrote:On February 21 2012 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 20 2012 23:51 NoobSkills wrote:On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least. Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined? proleague matches are not predetermined. NASTL =/= Proleague proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal. Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games? It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out. a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match. Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before. Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers)
it did come close a couple of times but I need to dig through all the games of last season.I'm pretty sure it happened too.
and reread my post I said the Ace of the team that is down 0-3 not the opposing team.
EDIT: Yep it did happen and with my favorite team, I only recall the ace match http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172968
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On February 21 2012 01:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 01:12 lichter wrote:On February 21 2012 01:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 21 2012 00:51 Talin wrote:On February 21 2012 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 20 2012 23:51 NoobSkills wrote:On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least. Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined? proleague matches are not predetermined. NASTL =/= Proleague proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal. Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games? It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out. a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match. Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before. Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers) it did come close a couple of times but I need to dig through all the games of last season.I'm pretty sure it happened too. and reread my post I said the Ace of the team that is down 0-3 not the opposing team. EDIT: Yep it did happen and with my favorite team, I only recall the ace match http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172968
Yup I read about the Ace, I made up my own situation :p
That's a pretty great comeback; I guess I will say equal in epic-ness (but obviously different) for AK and PL formats.
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On February 21 2012 01:24 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 01:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 21 2012 01:12 lichter wrote:On February 21 2012 01:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 21 2012 00:51 Talin wrote:On February 21 2012 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 20 2012 23:51 NoobSkills wrote:On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least. Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined? proleague matches are not predetermined. NASTL =/= Proleague proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal. Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games? It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out. a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match. Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before. Is it really possible to come back from 3-0 down in a best of seven, and without your opponent's ace player done playing, in the PL format? I know it's like ~2% based on American major sports. I'd like to believe that it's more likely in the AK format (reverse all kill) and more epic, but that would make the strategic aspect of comebacks more interesting in PL than AK (send out best player and hope for the best and that they lack snipers) it did come close a couple of times but I need to dig through all the games of last season.I'm pretty sure it happened too. and reread my post I said the Ace of the team that is down 0-3 not the opposing team. EDIT: Yep it did happen and with my favorite team, I only recall the ace match http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172968 Yup I read about the Ace, I made up my own situation :p That's a pretty great comeback; I guess I will say equal in epic-ness (but obviously different) for AK and PL formats. Except when you 3-0 and Flash hasn't played yet, you know it's actually 3-1, so not as epic as it is supposed to. :p
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I do prefer the all-kill format to watch, but I think they can both thrive. I think it'd be boring if the EGMC was just like the IPL Team league.
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I don't like the GSTL format in foreign leagues because teams that have 1 good player seem way better than they should be.
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All-Kill format is the best one. The idea of a guy carrying is too awesome
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GSTL by far for me, when you have to choose the player based on maps you tend to get tons of mirror matches, at least when I play in ESL, havn't watched many pro team leagues which play that format though to be honest.
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On February 20 2012 20:09 hakha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:59 -Archangel- wrote:I prefer GSTL format. And I don't agree with this statement from OP: On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match. In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player). By your argument, Argentina and Portugal should have won the World Cup because they have Messi and Ronaldo respectively and Cleveland Cavaliers should have won an NBA Championship because they had Lebron. Just having one star player does not mean you should win the whole championship. Yes star players will help win one or two games, but overall a team league should be won by a team that has consistent players. Look at KT last yr in BW proleague, sure they had Flash but he cant win them the championship himself, it was Stats as well as the KT zerg line that kept them competitive and won them the title. There is a big difference between country and team. Many players don't play as well for their country. Also factors like fatigue come into play a lot during EC and World Championships in football. But many clubs would not be where they are without their star players.
As far as basketball, of course star players don't bring in 100% wins and your ONE example means nothing. I can easily counter that with 6 Bulls titles won by Michael Jordan. And how many titles did other Star players through NBA history bring. I am not even going to start counting how many individual games did those players basically win by themselves.
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ive always preffered the NASL style format becuase it shows who has the better team not who has one or two amazing players that can take out 2-3 guys on there own
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Star leagues are there to focus on the individual players, why should team leagues be focused on a single player carrying the team. In winner's format we would see 2 things: star players like Flash (13-0 this SLP season for now) plow through opponents until such a player from another team comes, or the team prepares a specific riskplay to snipe him. Now while I love such matches, I don't like it to be the main focus , SL finals are for that. An SPL format allows for another type of player pick where the coach tries to guess who will be the other team's pick, that seems more exciting to me than direct 'hard' snipes one after the other. It is also a staging area for all players from the team to be showcased, which is good from the team's perspective of showing solidity to sponsors. At this point I am doubting the validity of the poll. Allot of people have not experienced the different types of formats equally and just rush a vote.
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Korea has this stuff figured out. GSTL format all the way.
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GSTL/IPLTAC format is shit.
NASTL format is shit.
We need Proleague format.
What I would like quite a lot tho... is kind of a mix of the two. No players is allowed to play twice in a match and the team that won the last game pick their next players first, so the losing team can actually try to conter the next pick.
Ex : TL vs EG, Bo3:
Round 1, InControL vs Haypro, Predetermined.
InControL beat Haypro
Round 2, EG Pick first since they won the last round. They pick HuK, therefore TL pick Zenio to conter him.
Zenio won.
Round 3, TL Pick first since they won the last round. They pick Hero, therefore EG pick Puma.
Hero won.
TL win 2-1.
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the results of the poll are very clear. it shows most people only cheer for their favorite players not for their favorite team.
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On February 21 2012 04:00 insanet wrote: the results of the poll are very clear. it shows most people only cheer for their favorite players not for their favorite team.
No... It only shows that people never watched a good team league, that's it. The only one that have a decent production value is GSTL.
And this poll should have included the Proleague format.
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On February 21 2012 04:00 insanet wrote: the results of the poll are very clear. it shows most people only cheer for their favorite players not for their favorite team.
That's a bit of a wild conclusion, it may just be that people enjoy the possibility of a single player (but not any particular player) coming back and single-handedly winning the match. I know that I pretty much don't actually care who wins when I watch team leagues, regarding either teams or players.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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On February 21 2012 01:04 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 00:51 Talin wrote:On February 21 2012 00:05 BLinD-RawR wrote:On February 20 2012 23:51 NoobSkills wrote:On February 20 2012 23:24 MrSalamandra wrote: I'm really fine with both, although I do prefer to watch the GSTL format. The NASTL format does have an obvious plus, that it tests the depth of the team (if it was a bo7 or bo9, anyway) better since no one player can all-kill the other team. I'm not sure that's necessarily a plus though, if someone is good enough to all-kill the other team, perhaps they should be allowed the opportunity to do so. It doesn't say that much for the strength of the opposite team if no one on it can beat one player. I think the GSTL format is more exciting, at least. Doesn't the winners also have that plus? Even though a certain team may be weaker lineup it also tests the whole team down to the coaches decision making. How do you snipe X great player from either team? Are you confident in X person on Y map to take them down? Where as proleague are the matches predetermined? proleague matches are not predetermined. NASTL =/= Proleague proleague lineups used to be predetermined before the matchfixing scandal. Eh, isn't the only difference between then and now that now lineups are not submitted / revealed ahead of time to prevent betting on individual games? It seems very unlikely that teams are just making up decisions on the spot. Technically they're still predetermined, it's just that nobody gets to know what they are before players are sent out. a chit with the player's is given to the referee before each set,sure some parts of it are predetermined, but not entirely, because when a team is down 0-3 in a Bo7 you are gonna see the Ace of that team come out 99% of the time( that is 1% for in case your coach is january), their lineups after that set will also be changed accordingly to get the teams towards the Ace match. Team coaches are making decisions on the spot, and thats why people talk about them more now than before, Coaching strategy became something people seem to learn and understand more now than before. Edit: I could expand on this if you'd like, but i'd like to know if you watched SKT vs KT which was played yesterday because I am going to take that match as an example if we are going to continue this.
That's ok, I get your point. Obviously not having the obligation to release full lineup ahead of time gives teams some space to make last minute calls.
I just thought it was still kinda common practice to decide which players play where ahead of time based on some of the matches earlier this season (such as KT losing without playing Flash or T1 without Fanta), and fbh's interview about ACE players just picking a map they like etc. And Khan's antics obviously.
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