This is going to be a post of me trying to convince(mostly terrans) of why you should want charglot archon to be viable again in PvT. I think there are quite a lot of protoss who miss chargelot archon but maybe not so many terrans who miss it. I think this is because of a huge missunderstanding of how chargelot archon works in addition to perhaps some bitterness of the 2 base chargelot archon all in era. Two base all ins are not what I am arguing for.
What I want in PvT is a fun, dynamic, micro intensive, multitask intensive and skillfull matchup. Something that PvT definitely lacks right now compared to previous eras. I understand that chargelot archon was incredibly viable during the blink all in era and this allowed protoss with a blink pressure -> transition to chargelot archon to be incredibly strong. This may attribute to some 'chargelot archon being too strong' bias. I totally understand. However, as you read my argument please try to keep an open mind as to how this style creates exciting games and not how broken or unbalanced you think it is. These are things that can be tweaked in the future. With that being said charglot archon is actually the most fun composition to play not only as the protoss in PvT but also as the terran.
Some common misconceptions:
- chargelot archon is a-move - the Terran has way more micro and multitask to do - chargelot archon does not create a fun and engaging matchup
The actuality of the style
- takes intense micro on both sides. - creates tons of back and forth momentum in addition to constant action on the map - is hard to keep up with everything you need to do on both sides
Addressing archon a-move
I'm going to make a special section on this because there are a lot of terrans that would sell their first born child before admitting that chargelot archon is not a-move. Yes, I understand that having literally only archons and zealots is a-move. However, if the protoss a-moves chargelot archons(when it was viable) then the terran can simply kite back and the terran will trade better than the protoss. This is ideally how it would work in LoTV too. You simply can't just a-move. In actuality protoss has storms in addition to chargelot archon. This makes a fun dynamic where not only is the terran player splitting furiously against the storms but the protoss player is also spreading out high templar in order to avoid ghosts. At this point I think most of us would agree that this micro battle between the two players is already really exciting. There is, however, a third layer of excitement to playing the matchup this way. Drops. Both sides of this matchup can drop in order to distract their opponent. When the protoss plays col double upgrade style drops are consistently one giant doom drop and the protoss has no counter aggression. However, with chargelot archon the protoss has counter aggression with chargelot drops, dt, and storm drops. Thus, we get not one, but both sides dealing harrass damage. This often makes for games that have 3-4 or more things going on at once. In some of the games I link below the casters cant even keep up with all the things going on. Is this not exactly what people keep asking for to make it more like brood war? Not that I am a huge advocit of brood war. However, this is the one style apart from tvz muta ling bane vs marine medivac that is actually a ton of battles all over the map. A ton of battles equals a higher skill cap, more entertaining games for spectators and more fun for players. Again, keep in mind that balance can always be worried about later. I'm going to wrap this up by putting a few chargelot archon games that I personally loved(hence all of the parting games). What you should be looking at is how action packed and intense the games are. Im certain after watching these games you will have changed your opinion on chargelot archon, or if you like chargelot archon already you're going to really enjoy these amazing games.
Some amazing chargelot archon games:
Parting vs MKP on entombed probably one of the best series of all time:
Parting vs Hack:
Here's a korean vs foreigner game xDD Classic vs HeroMarine:
completely agree. i was considering making a similar post to this but I didn't have the time for it. Adding the +shield damage on the WM was imo one of the biggest mistakes blizzard ever made. While it made the matchup balanced it killed the entertaining zealot templar style in favor of boring collossus turtle. Now all we see are scv pulls or mass drop play with the protoss turtling in his base and the only question is if the terran can deal damage to the protoss or if the toss can turtle hard enough to survive. and I play terran so don't think only protoss player want templar styles back.
I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
We should not be looking to make the game easier. It is more important that the game becomes harder for everyone. This will mean better games at the pro level and also the casual level. Please also consider that it is not only 100 times easier for the terran to deal with collossi than storm, its also 100 times easier for the protoss to play collossus than it is to play storm.
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
That is not my experience. Although I will admit to having a mental block when it comes to building vikings in that matchup.
I'm neither Terran nor Protoss but yes please. Currently, apart from when a select few players are involved (Maru, TY, ...), we either see SCV pulls or the boring "can those Vikings kill the Colossi faster than the Stalkers kill the Vikings?" scenario. Chargelot/Archon was cool and shit, most Terrans probably have nightmares about it because it was predominant in an era when Protoss was strong and could toy with the Terran (false Blink all-in into HT hello), but it remains the most exciting way to see the MU be played in my Zerg viewer opinion.
On March 31 2015 04:22 OtherWorld wrote: I'm neither Terran nor Protoss but yes please. Currently, apart from when a select few players are involved (Maru, TY, ...), we either see SCV pulls or the boring "can those Vikings kill the Colossi faster than the Stalkers kill the Vikings?" scenario. Chargelot/Archon was cool and shit, most Terrans probably have nightmares about it because it was predominant in an era when Protoss was strong and could toy with the Terran (false Blink all-in into HT hello), but it remains the most exciting way to see the MU be played in my Zerg viewer opinion.
Yeah, I totally understand why terrans looks back on it with a bad taste in their mouth. I don't think it was directly because of chargelot archon though. Hopefully we can look past this and acknowledge that chargelot archon by itself is actually really exciting.
I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Yeah TvP / PvT is pretty dull right now. However the reason they changed chargelot templar was because terrans was doing awful vs toss. I dont necessarily agree with it being "more fun" for the terran. That is opinion based and in my opinion it was much more frustrating to play against than playing against colossus. I do want it back to some extent to make the matchup more exiting but i feel like they would have to do something (like they did buffing the mines) to make it less powerful than during early 2014
On March 31 2015 04:08 Soldier92 wrote: I think the majority of terran players would rather play against templar than collosus. The matchup is 10x more interesting when collosus aren't involved.
Why would we? Colossi are 100 times easier to deal with than storm.
As a Terran I vastly preferred playing vs Chargelot HT. I got to use my multitasking / decision making a lot more. Against Stalker / Collosi it's more about having crisp macro and carefully taking good engagements, which is kinda meh.
edit: the problem in early 2014 was more the fact that Protoss had about 5 different viable openings each with a bunch of variations that could all outright kill Terran, but didn't even have to do direct damage to transition into a macro game. Meanwhile Terran had almost 0 chances of dealing counter damage (there were a few gimmicks but nothing solid, and you almost always had to sacrifice scouting information in order to do so). The Widow Mine change fixed the problem by effectively killing the Zealot / HT midgame, which made it a lot harder for Protoss to transition out of their builds, and Terran also over time got really good and scouting and holding off most of those builds (+ map changes and MsC vision reduction made Blink weaker).
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
How is it different? Zerg units actually die as opposed to 3/3/3 Protoss units <.<
Listen, it's a good idea to make the style viable, but you're asking to make the game harder. What about new players? People who don't have a lot of experience? Players who are not as skilled in general? Below a certain level, Terrans don't have the micro to deal with chargelot/archon properly while on the same level A-moving chargelot/archon and hitting a storm occasionally is enough for the Protoss. That has to be taken into consideration before doing anything.
If the Widow Mine was balanced in a way, that you make them vs Zealot/Archon/HT's, but they don't utterly decimate the composition, it would be great for the game IMO. Bio army splitting vs Storms and Zealots+Archons splitting vs Widow Mines. It would create a super interesting positional game aswell.
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
How is it different? Zerg units actually die as opposed to 3/3/3 Protoss units <.<
Listen, it's a good idea to make the style viable, but you're asking to make the game harder. What about new players? People who don't have a lot of experience? Players who are not as skilled in general? Below a certain level, Terrans don't have the micro to deal with chargelot/archon properly while on the same level A-moving chargelot/archon and hitting a storm occasionally is enough for the Protoss. That has to be taken into consideration before doing anything.
This I agree with though, Chargelot Archon is much harder to deal with at lower levels. A move vs a move chargelot archon rapes bio medivac so bad it's not even funny.
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
Current TvP is actually not too different than TvZ engagements. If you ball up you'll take massive AOE and die. Zealot/Archon was completely different. You had to stay in a (mostly) tight ball to minimize Zealot surface area while using Conc Shells to move backwards and eventually whiddle down the Zealot count (which would then immediately get replenished by 12 warp gates at any pylon.)
Colossus may not be the most interesting stuff in the world but to say it is just "Will his stalkers kill my Vikings?" is a very shallow perspective. Yes you have to queue your vikings up on his Colossus but you also have to split away like a madman to maximize concave (and minimize splash) against a limited number of Zealots to eventually hit the soft core of the army which are Stalkers.
On March 31 2015 04:28 Tenks wrote: I personally hated playing against zealot/templar/archon. It basically felt like I was forced to kite for days and days and days. It wasn't fun even in the least.
Hmm okay, did you not like that because it felt like it hampered your own creativity in the game and didnt allow you to do much else or because kiting just felt too repetitive. How do you feel that it differs from tvz where there is constant splitting and kiting?
How is it different? Zerg units actually die as opposed to 3/3/3 Protoss units <.<
Listen, it's a good idea to make the style viable, but you're asking to make the game harder. What about new players? People who don't have a lot of experience? Players who are not as skilled in general? Below a certain level, Terrans don't have the micro to deal with chargelot/archon properly while on the same level A-moving chargelot/archon and hitting a storm occasionally is enough for the Protoss. That has to be taken into consideration before doing anything.
I think these are pretty reasonable points. I actually think that mines drops are pretty fine in pvt, but not very fine against chargelot archon in heads up fights. Perhaps someway for protoss to disable the mines more effectively would be enough to make it viable. If this is the case then we don't need to worry about less skilled players because mines also do terrible terrible damage. This would make it fair for both sides even outside the pro level. Of course this is only one idea. Perhaps there is another way we can about this that can enable chargelot archon at all levels of play fairly. I'm definitely open to suggestions!
I really understand that u want diversity. I think we all want that. For every race. So I am with u in that regard. Cheap replenishable units make for back and forth games (see ZvT). But why are u trying to convince Terrans? They can't change the game. Furthermore, u trying to explain that PvT is very micro intense for both sides with a Zealot/ Archon style. But u haven't explained anything why it's so micro intense for the Protoss side. Positioning HTs is not really micro. And other than to pull ur units back and attack move, there is not much Protoss can do. There is no split or any comparable microtask to do. Place storms and position army so that zealots can fight simultaneously and don't derp. When u engage, then u engage. Or u decide not to. I am not saying there is no micro. But u sound like Protoss has to invest the same attention to micro as Terran has to. And thats what Terrans are complaining about. In terms of diversity, YES! Everyone wants that. Matches are cool to watch? YES! But pls do not try to sell it the way u did.
The chargelot just is not a good unit. It's a dumb one. It's an incredibly tanky light unit, that has a distance-closing mechanic to compensate for it being a slow melee unit. But because of the way it's designed, a wave of chargelots just bunch up, and either are so tanky that they eventually beat out the kiting Terran, or the Terran manages to kite them till their dead. You don't -really- do anything to control them. You actually just let the zealots derp at the army while you do other stuff, like macro at home, or use archons + stalkers to focus down medivacs (oh the micro!). Comparing that to what the Terran is doing, it's a total joke.
I'm not saying that there aren't things to do to make compositions that include zealots and archons micro-intensive. It's just that the zealot unit, and the archon unit are both derpy non-micro heavy units, which imo, are bad for the game. The Zergling + Baneling + Roach composition seems a lot better to me, but I'll be honest and say that even that is pretty a-movish. You try and get your surround with the lings, and you make sure the banelings split up and track the big clumps of bio, and you let the roaches do whatever. The Terran is ALWAYS doing the heavy micro in those fights. Also, when Zerg gets a significant lead, they often just morph 50+ banelings (only 25 supply btw) and a-move into Terrans to close out the game. This seems dumb to me, but Zerg already have a bit of a hard time closing out games, in my opinion, so whatever.
Let us watch again the decisive battle between MMA and PartinG. See how much Terran has to do in that situation: he would need to EMP all the Archons and focus the weak ones to kill them off while simultaneously retreating Ghosts in danger and hitting & running with the rest of his army; an insurmountable task if you're not called Automaton 2000. Meanwhile, PartinG can sip the drink of his choice pressing the T key. MMA will necessarily make a copious amount of mistakes solely due to the micro requirements; PartinG cannot be wrong a-moving Zealots/Archons.
No really, I played both races, there is no way you can compare micro of P and T in a Chargelot/archons vs bio fight.
Let us watch again the decisive battle between MMA and PartinG. See how much Terran has to do in that situation: he would need to EMP all the Archons and focus the weak ones to kill them off while simultaneously retreating Ghosts in danger and hitting & running with the rest of his army; an insurmountable task if you're not called Automaton 2000. Meanwhile, PartinG can sip the drink of his choice pressing the T key. MMA will necessarily make a copious amount of mistakes solely due to the micro requirements; PartinG cannot be wrong a-moving Zealots/Archons.
No really, I played both races, there is no way you can compare micro of P and T in a Chargelot/archons vs bio fight.
It isn't about the balance, it's about how exciting the games were. With mines available now or possibly other options we're able to make chargelot archon more balanced. This is what mines were intended to do, but instead they eliminated it.
On March 31 2015 04:58 DinoMight wrote: This is pretty irrelevant since there is little to no incentive for Terrans to go bio in LotV.
Mech every game...
Protoss still too stronk for mech.
Cyclones, flying siege tanks, no immortal shields.
We randomly listing things? Okay: carriers.
We're not randomly listing things. We're listing things that combined will mech a viable playstyle vs Protoss.
It's pretty clear that Blizzard wants mech to work vs. Protoss, they're doing damn near everything they can to make it viable and even said in the patch that the Immortal nerf was to facilitate mech play vs P.
Carriers are not the reason mech isn't viable, and they can be countered with Vikings/Widow Mines (which requires the Protoss to get Templar, then the Terran to get Ghosts, etc.. there is back and forth). It's the early-mid game strength of the Immortal. And both its high damage to mechanical AND high resistance to Tank fire.
Immortals without hardened shields MELT to Tanks/Hellbats.
Thors will go from doing 20 damage to 60-78.
This Immortal nerf is absolutely massive and if people don't think it will change things... well, Beta's out tomorrow and I'm betting you it will...
On March 31 2015 05:43 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Isn't the problem quite simple? Colossus.
I've only used the unit tester but it looks like in addition to the nerf to the range upgrade, the Colossus's damage was reduced from 15(+2)(x2) to 12(+1)(x2), which may make it less viable against everything.
I like the idea of more diverse openers for any matchup. I think the crux of whatever problem may exist with the matchup is the fact that the Terran unit composition is pretty much always the same. Blizzard has always said they wanted to make mech viable in PvT. Let's increase diversity where it's lacking, not handcuff it where it's not.
Let us watch again the decisive battle between MMA and PartinG. See how much Terran has to do in that situation: he would need to EMP all the Archons and focus the weak ones to kill them off while simultaneously retreating Ghosts in danger and hitting & running with the rest of his army; an insurmountable task if you're not called Automaton 2000. Meanwhile, PartinG can sip the drink of his choice pressing the T key. MMA will necessarily make a copious amount of mistakes solely due to the micro requirements; PartinG cannot be wrong a-moving Zealots/Archons.
No really, I played both races, there is no way you can compare micro of P and T in a Chargelot/archons vs bio fight.
when i offrace as protoss the terran most of the time just emps all my hts and then kites the rest of my army to death because my protoss micro sucks. maybe protoss micro doesn't look as fancy as terran micro but constantly spreading your templar or dropping them from warpprisms while simultaneously trying to flank the bio army is far from easy. I would say it's equally hard as bio micro.
Let us watch again the decisive battle between MMA and PartinG. See how much Terran has to do in that situation: he would need to EMP all the Archons and focus the weak ones to kill them off while simultaneously retreating Ghosts in danger and hitting & running with the rest of his army; an insurmountable task if you're not called Automaton 2000. Meanwhile, PartinG can sip the drink of his choice pressing the T key. MMA will necessarily make a copious amount of mistakes solely due to the micro requirements; PartinG cannot be wrong a-moving Zealots/Archons.
No really, I played both races, there is no way you can compare micro of P and T in a Chargelot/archons vs bio fight.
when i offrace as protoss the terran most of the time just emps all my hts and then kites the rest of my army to death because my protoss micro sucks. maybe protoss micro doesn't look as fancy as terran micro but constantly spreading your templar or dropping them from warpprisms while simultaneously trying to flank the bio army is far from easy. I would say it's equally hard as bio micro.
This is what happens when I play a Terran that's better than me. He gets perfect EMPs so I have no storm, attacks my Colossi from over unpassable terrain with his vikings, and kites the whole rest of my army to death. And as soon as I warp in 12 Zealots to reinforce there 's a drop in each of my bases.
The micro required on the Protoss side is not flashy but it exists and it's hard especially because 1-2 good EMPs can make all your HT's useless in literally 1 second.
So you need to spread your HTs out, but not so far apart that your storms aren't all available where the battle is going on. And you need to make sure your Zealots are tanking damage, but not running too far ahead that they're getting hit but the Colos aren't able to hit the bio. And you need to focus fire your Stalkers on their Vikings while moving your Colossus away from the vikings (but towards the bio if possible). Also, you need to make sure none of your units are running into Widow mines which is hard when you have no observers because Scan + Vikings. So you need to micro your observers to stay close to your army but not wander off and get killed.
There are a lot of moving parts and vs a skilled Terran opponent none of this is easy.