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April 21 Balance Testing source
We’ve published a new Balance Test Map titled “(2)DuskTowers (3.2.2 Balance v1.0)” which contains the following changes that we’d like your feedback on:
Photon Cannon- Increase AA damage from 20 to 20 (+10 bio)
Swarm Host- Cost reduced from 200/100 to 150/75
- Supply Increased from 3 to 4
Thor- AA damage from splash to single-target
- Damage altered to 35 (+15 armored) every 2.14 seconds
Banshee- Hyperflight Rotors requirement changed from Fusion Core to Armory
Liberator- Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
We encourage you to head on into the Balance Test Map to test these changes out! To find the Balance Test Map, enter the Multiplayer section and navigate to Custom. The Balance Test Map will be at the top of the list under ‘Top Played.’
We’ve also updated the Extension Mod for balance testing, so that you can play around with these changes on a variety of maps. Those of you who are interested in trying out the Extension Mod can do the following to get started:
Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind these potential changes, you can check out Senior Designer David Kim's Community Feedback Update and his follow up post on the Swarm Host.
We’d like to remind you that feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us at this time. We kindly ask that you spend some time playing games on the test map before offering your thoughts on the changes listed above. We look forward to hearing your feedback and please remember that none of these changes are final.
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The game already have so many "special circumstance" balancing like the photon cannon buff, adding one more wont change anything... So I guess I am fine with that one.
I dono about the swarm host change... If I ever have to play against nydus+swarm host harass I might kill myself.
Thor, I like the direction but will it help against broodlords and tempest? I don't so..
banshee change, nope... we already have enough of this.
Have no opinion on liberator change.. For me (on dia level) I never build them for their damage vs armored air units anyway.. it is maybe different on higher level?
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Thor change is good but Thor needs more range if order to be able to fight Tempest/Carriers/BroodLords. Their anti-air DPS should also be higher.
Also, if Protoss goes air and Terran counters by going Thors, he can easily switch back to Immortals and collect a free win.
I forsee a huge problem in TvZ with this change though. If Zerg goes mass Corruptors, Liberators will not work any more. So Zerg can go around killing your based with mass Corrupters faster than you can catch them with your Thors.
I guess going for a base trade will be a viable option though.
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I don't like the swarm host changes. I can't afford to have 20+ supply useless in my midgame. How am i supposed to use this ?
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On April 22 2016 18:41 MockHamill wrote: Thor change is good but Thor needs more range if order to be able to fight Tempest/Carriers/BroodLords. Their anti-air DPS should also be higher.
This indeed, it should (imho) just outrange a lib (without range upgrade) and be equal to a broodlord to justify the cost and supply it requires.
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Wow, that cannon change is huge against mutas. Can't wait to see how base trades will play out
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On April 22 2016 18:55 Magus.421 wrote: I don't like the swarm host changes. I can't afford to have 20+ supply useless in my midgame. How am i supposed to use this ? Yeah I don't really see how this will make the useful again. The whole point is that they are too much dead supply when there are no locust, now they will be more but cheaper dead supply
Maybe there will be some midgame timing Snute will find out or something
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that thor change is bs. now thor is totally useless. with air splash it would at least countered mutas. and every massive air unit counter the thor. broodlords and tempest just destroy the thor.
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Welp, Mutalisks are now relegated to 8 being made in ZvT to stop drops with Liberators being specifically designed to kill them, and being relegated to 0 being made in ZvP because of Phoenix openers being standard and cannons stomping them in numbers under 10 (which would just ensure more Phoenix were being cranked out in response so cannons being more effective is just the nail in the coffin).
Awesome, now one of the most skill cap based units in the game is useful for harassment defense in one match, an opener in it's mirror match up while being virtually extinct in the other.
Talk about that balance though!
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AA damage from splash to single-target Damage altered to 35 (+15 armored) every 2.14 seconds
They need to increase attack range as well so it can actually attack against Tempest/Broodlords. Also buff its movement speed and reduce damage vs ground to compensate.
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Didn't even know this was happening :O
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Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On April 26 2016 16:26 Hularuns wrote: Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute. The problem is that Phoenix is the only answer and thanks to increased economic start and delayed tech you have to open with SG every fucking time. Which means no diversity and "creativity" in PvZ.
Though the problem is probably in the second section too - phoenix opener is simply good. You make damage to Zerg eco, scout Zerg, stop their scouting. If they want diversity in PvZ they need to address the problem of SG opener being too good vs. the rest. As I am a pessimistic person I am expecting a nerf to Protoss to boost the creativity ><
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the banshee change is scary
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looks like they dont want to see air units for a while. cannon buff is a huge buff vs mutas and medivacs.
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On April 26 2016 17:21 Dingodile wrote: looks like they dont want to see air units for a while. cannon buff is a huge buff vs mutas and medivacs. buff is only vs. AA bio so dmg buff does not affect Terran at all.
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On April 26 2016 17:25 egrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 17:21 Dingodile wrote: looks like they dont want to see air units for a while. cannon buff is a huge buff vs mutas and medivacs. buff is only vs. AA bio so dmg buff does not affect Terran at all. This just in, we wanted to add some flavor so all medivacs are infested...and they randomly spawn rocks.
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When i read all the community feedbacks, i thought the problem was the ZvP, with a midgame too strong for the Zerg and a late game too strong for the protoss (if i resume). I dont understand how the cannon change and the swarmhost change are supposed to fix this.^^
I understand why a liberator cant be a counter to corruptors, so ok for them^^; but about terran, i thought, again by the read of the community feedbacks, that the problem was the TvT tankivacs' domination, but, nothing new about that?
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On April 26 2016 17:31 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 17:25 egrimm wrote:On April 26 2016 17:21 Dingodile wrote: looks like they dont want to see air units for a while. cannon buff is a huge buff vs mutas and medivacs. buff is only vs. AA bio so dmg buff does not affect Terran at all. and they randomly spawn rocks. Terran force fields confirmed?
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Swarm Host to 4 supply just boggles my mind. I can't even begin to understand why they think this is a good idea. To punish players for accidentally misclicking and building them in the lategame even more, thus increasing the top level skill gap maybe?
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This is even more of a buff to SH than what Catz proposed, seems this might actually make quite a big difference. Looking forward to seeing more SH =D The Banshee buff is totally needless, I've been convinced by others that the PC buff might be good but we will see. Thor change I like and Liberator change I have absolutely no clue XD
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Thor change is not good. Needs enough range to hit Tempest and BL otherwise they will be countered hard.
Also do something about Tankvacs already. TvT is way worse then before.
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More range on Thor AA otherwise it's useless.
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Also do something about Tankvacs already. TvT is way worse then before.
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Nerfing libs and still nothing about ultras vipers or tempest late game. The game is gonna be so fun Kappa.
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4713 Posts
Awful changes overall. The PO change also directly counters terran aggression against Protoss, which was already pretty hard in the early and mid game, the Liberator nerf is pretty awful in the context of them also changing the Thor.
Meanwhile the most pressing issues out there like: Invincible Nydus Ultralisk Armor 4 Range Tempests
Have yet to be addressed.
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Photon Cannon change is not that much because it's all about how many shots cannon needs to kill mutas when all protoss have to defend against mutas is cannons. Currently it's 7 shots (because of regeneration), with change it's 5 shots. I would prefer to see +15 vs bio buff so cannon will need 4 shots to kill mutas especially because cannons have slow attack speed (in comparison with spores).
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On April 26 2016 19:25 Destructicon wrote: Awful changes overall. The PO change also directly counters terran aggression against Protoss Overcharge isn't getting changed and the cannon buff is only against flying bio units.
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-Revert marauders and armory nerfs instead of buffing banshee.
Thousand of terrans crying of joy all over the internet.
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I don't understand what they are trying to do with thor and banshee changes.
Thorzain ruined thors with a single TSL win 5 fucking years ago lol
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On April 26 2016 19:25 Destructicon wrote: Awful changes overall. The PO change also directly counters terran aggression against Protoss, which was already pretty hard in the early and mid game, the Liberator nerf is pretty awful in the context of them also changing the Thor.
Meanwhile the most pressing issues out there like: Invincible Nydus Ultralisk Armor 4 Range Tempests
Have yet to be addressed. You sound like Avilo...
Nydus barely sees play.
Both races have answers to Ultralisks ( we see more broodlords these days)
14 Range Tempests still get beaten the same way they were in HotS
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4713 Posts
On April 26 2016 20:14 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 19:25 Destructicon wrote: Awful changes overall. The PO change also directly counters terran aggression against Protoss, which was already pretty hard in the early and mid game, the Liberator nerf is pretty awful in the context of them also changing the Thor.
Meanwhile the most pressing issues out there like: Invincible Nydus Ultralisk Armor 4 Range Tempests
Have yet to be addressed. You sound like Avilo... Nydus barely sees play. Both races have answers to Ultralisks ( we see more broodlords these days) 14 Range Tempests still get beaten the same way they were in HotS
Just because Nydus barely sees play doesn't make it any less broken in its current state. And Terran's answer to Ultralisks is awful and binary in nature, they either have enough ghosts/libs to take care of them, or they get rolled over, there is nothing balanced or fun about it, its a dumb mechanic.
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I'm not gonna lie seeing an actual Call to Action post sparked hope into my brittled heart. I totally lost interest in the discussion, simply because nothing happened.
These changes are so ridiculous I might just like it. I'm totally against from a design stand point having Cannons do extra dmg vs this one single type of unit and also having a unit cost so little, but cost so incredibly much supply. With that said it feels like they're testing design space and how crazy they can go about it. 150/75 for a Zerg unit costing less than a Cyclone, but can snipe buildings in such a powerful way is soooo bat shit insane. It's basically Roach 2.0, or a reverse Tempest. I think we're gonna see a lot of Zergs throw away these Swarm Hosts and it's gonna look silly, but cannot possibly think that this unit will see no play. I think the +vs Bio on Cannons will actually be the most crucial vs this new strategem.
Thors are not gonna do what they actually want, but hey maybe Gumiho will fly 6 Thors with speedivacs into and air toss army and demolish it with this new type of damage.
Speed Banshee's roaming everywhere, again seems like a design space testing thing. I think it will be crazy in TvZ, since fast Muta's won't actually be a hard counter, now you just run away from the Overseer and they're Invisible.
Liberator change makes it still painfully annoying in the early game, but it sucks late vs Corruptors. This should be the end to the Hellion/Banshee/Liberator strategem, as the Liberator in itself will not be sufficient in anti air. Vikings are always better now in TvT and in TvP it will be even worse vs Tempests. I think the Liberator is still a really weird unit, but it's now sealed down to anti harass unit in the anti air department, so the movespeed of the unit makes a bit more sense.
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Nydus is not broken, which is why it barely sees play, and ultralisks are the only good unit z has in zvt, and they are only good for a very short window of time - zerg is already struggling in zvt, stop being as delusional as avilo.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
I should say photon cannon buff would result protosses, especially before masters level, to play turtle style and force them to transition into skytosses. Also, it is not so good way to go because it prevents zergsfrom using drops in deep macrogames. Also it makes terrans struggle with earlygame aggression. I dislike this change.
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Spore should + dmg vs light if speed banshee change goes through.Its pain in the ass even in mirror match up. Terran has figured out how to stop nydus but protoss is still struggling tho.Not sure we need more time or it needs to address right now.
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I don't see the point of changing the Thor or the Swarm host. in Competetive 1v1 on low-Skill level (Sub Masters) it is 100% more rewarding for Terran to go into bio + tank in every Matchup. Basicly all units you can make quick and in high numbers. Lotv: Mass units and Take bases. Same for zerg. the diffrence however is that zerg has multiple ways to play the game, while terran still has to go bio + Tanks into mass liberators...EVERY GAME.
Roach+Revager and Hydra+Lurker offer very cool and "on the fly" transitions into stronger armies. Combination with Lings and banelings is always an option. And with Viper Broodlord and Ultra there are many "game ending" options. Not to forget the Infestor that can also be combined with most ways to play, same as viper. Either you fungal an army to trap, or you bc an army to engage with melee units, you can also use abduct, fungal and parasitic bomb to fight vs Air. Zerg is the most complete race atm, you can savely remove the swarmhost from their arsenal all together.
Protoss is kind of similar to both. While massing Gatewayunits is the terran side, but sprinkling in the "personal style" choices in the composition liek Zerg ist totally doable. Addig Phoenix or Templar or immortal or Disruptor orColossi at like, and combining it with an army that is "adapable" on the fly to its needs, even not even te needs , but the personal "comfort zone". If you like having 15 templar arround the map..cool..or having 4 Disruptors with your army as AoE or even pumping Colussus 2x from 2 robos like good old times..or just go for mass adepts with sentries and archons to end games. All it takes is double robo + double stargate and as much gatways you can afford.
Ending again with the Style choices of Terran: MMM and Tanks. Try to harass with mines and Liberators, but well you can get denied by pylons. GG GREAT GAME.
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- Thor's change won't do anything for mech or bio or thor use in general. - Photon canon change is a niche change that does the job a phenix should. - Swarm host : design is still terrible, changing numbers won't change anything. - Liberator : the AG is the problem, not the AA. - Banshee : stop trying to make speedbanshees happen.
Again, a balance test map no one asked about. "Integrating community's feedback", for blizz, means spamming test maps with changes no one cares about.
What about tankivac/disruptor/mech viability/8 armor ultra/ghost snipe/liberator AG/adept shade/immortal barrier ? "Naaah, that's what the community is asking about, therefore we'll look into EVERYTHING but that !" - DK
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even though not directly related to the changes proposed, i still don't understand how Blizzards game designers are ok with shooting pylons. Worst game design idea ever and the fact that this will stay as last version of SC2 just makes it sad and pathetic. Now with photon cannon buff, maybe its time this shit is removed from the game?
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instead of permanently changing the thor's anti air type, why doesn't blizzard just go back to hots thors which could change forms?
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With liberators now getting shut down by Corruptors, TvZ late game could be pretty tough?
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On April 26 2016 22:57 IMPrime wrote: instead of permanently changing the thor's anti air type, why doesn't blizzard just go back to hots thors which could change forms?
Yes. Even if there were a 15 second Thor refit timer, to go back to the AA splash variant - that would be ok.
Without the suggestion posted above, what is to prevent a tech switch into Muta even if you do win that BL battle with Thors? Let's say the battle comes to your main base BL vs. Thor, and you manage to hold it off defender's reinforcement advantage and have 5 Thors left over because you scouted right and were well prepared. They are useless against a Muta tech switch.
And also give Thors enough range to be a worthwhile production option. Otherwise any other discussion on Thor is kind of moot.
Nobody is asking at this point for this to become the new GSL meta. Marines, Medivacs and Tanks can still be the only thing we see in GSL. However, please consider giving the Thor some presence in masters and below. What do you really have to lose Blizzard except giving the playerbase some diversity and a playlstyle they enjoy. If everyone keeps yelling to see Thors in GSL - you can re-evaluate the gap and see if you want to do that later. Nobody is asking for TY to make Thors the new meta.
Right now, the status of the Thor is atrocious and it needs a worthwhile presense. Alternately, you could do something to have the Cyclone fill-in, but that doesn't even seem to be on the radar after 5 months of discussion - so it's going to have the be the Thor I guess.
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Liberator Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
^ What is this referring to? There AA or their ground attack mode?
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@ RhYS_1313_ the air to air attack.
I find this to be the most meta of any patch proposal i can think of. Simultaneously attempts to make swarm hosts more buildable and buffs photon cannons against said swarm hosts. Kappa
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The thor change isnt enough, thor must have better movility/speed !!!
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I'm not enthusiastic about those changes. Let's elaborate on why :
1) photon AA bio buff this could be an interesting idea, but I'm pretty sure a +light damage would make more sense, for a number of reasons : 1a) helps vs speed banshees if they ever make it to the meta, limits the strength of phoenix openers in PvP ; 1b) (more important) doesn't buff cannons vs corruptors ; the +bio damage could seriously help turtle skytoss play (massing tempests behind cannons and templars) and this would definitely not be a good thing. I should mention that while the idea is interesting, P needs a nerf -probably a minor one- in that mu. Immortals tear through lurkers far too easily, and a barrier nerf will have to be tested at some point. It could be a slight nerf (or even a Z buff, but I don't know what could be buffed), but Z players should be able to fight 10+ immortals armies on ground, which is not the case atm.
2) SH change I never missed SHs and I'm unsure this could do the trick in any mu. I'd say it's worth testing but I think SHs could be given an anti-air role instead (burrows and spawns scourges in mid range for instance, a kind of AA lurker) that would be interesting since Z lacks weapons vs tempests/carriers.
3) Thor change No idea about this one.
4) Banshee speed I really dislike the idea behind this change. Harass is interesting to watch when it involves risk. It won't be too difficult in TvZ to get an armory and some speed banshees that will deal damage inevitably while the Z will never be able to catch them. Zero counterplay harass -just like oracles, speed long range prisms...- makes zero sense.
5) Lib AA change Don't understand the reasoning behind this one.
Overall the changes don't sound too sensible to me and (more importantly) don't seem to address the most topical issues of the current meta (PvZ and PvT being rather P favored at the highest level of play especially). A bit disappointing.
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mutalisks go from hard to play/situational to unplayable vs toss
SH goes from dead supply to more dead supply
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I don't understand the role Thor is supposed to play now, and don't understand what the intended role is after the patch. It's a fat supply sink that can't manouvre for shit. What is it supposed to be used for?
The other changes are fine, I guess. The Banshee change might be too much, but we'll see.
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None of these changes really make much sense to me.
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1) photon AA bio buff Just buff stalker AA damage to 14 flat instead. Also helps in PvP against oracles/phoenix, which are countered by more phoenixes. It won't break anything because stalkers are no longer the core of the protoss army, it's a combination of adepts+immortals+other stuff.
2) SH change No idea about this unit. Really hope it won't bring back the old SH turtle style. It made me quit watching sc2 for a long time.
3) Thor change This unit also needs more range and a movement speed buff imo.
4) Banshee speed I wish they would buff the BC instead. It's the worst unit in the terran arsenal, and that's a big title considering the race also has the cyclone and the thor.
5) Lib AA change Listen to Scarlett and reduce the AOE instead. Make it less of a hardcounter to mutas and less hardcountered by corruptors than with the proposed change.
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On April 27 2016 00:39 Salteador Neo wrote: 1) photon AA bio buff Just buff stalker AA damage to 14 flat instead. Also helps in PvP against oracles/phoenix, which are countered by more phoenixes. It won't break anything because stalkers are no longer the core of the protoss army, it's a combination of adepts+immortals+other stuff.
2) SH change No idea about this unit. Really hope it won't bring back the old SH turtle style. It made me quit watching sc2 for a long time.
3) Thor change This unit also needs more range and a movement speed buff imo.
4) Banshee speed I wish they would buff the BC instead. It's the worst unit in the terran arsenal, and that's a big title considering the race also has the cyclone and the thor.
5) Lib AA change Listen to Scarlett and reduce the AOE instead. Make it less of a hardcounter to mutas and less hardcountered by corruptors than with the proposed change. Very sensible post. Unsure about the move speed on the Thor but the rest makes a lot of sense to me.
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On April 26 2016 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 16:26 Hularuns wrote: Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute. The problem is that Phoenix is the only answer and thanks to increased economic start and delayed tech you have to open with SG every fucking time. Which means no diversity and "creativity" in PvZ. Though the problem is probably in the second section too - phoenix opener is simply good. You make damage to Zerg eco, scout Zerg, stop their scouting. If they want diversity in PvZ they need to address the problem of SG opener being too good vs. the rest. As I am a pessimistic person I am expecting a nerf to Protoss to boost the creativity ><
And a slight cannon buff made phoenix worse? People still are going to open phoenixes vs zerg because it's just better for early game. Toss isn't going to open something else instead of stargate just because cannons got a +10 damage buff. What this will do is prevent zerg from surprise tech switching the toss, but other than that, still expect SG opening into immortals and eventually zealots archons.
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On April 27 2016 00:48 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:On April 26 2016 16:26 Hularuns wrote: Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute. The problem is that Phoenix is the only answer and thanks to increased economic start and delayed tech you have to open with SG every fucking time. Which means no diversity and "creativity" in PvZ. Though the problem is probably in the second section too - phoenix opener is simply good. You make damage to Zerg eco, scout Zerg, stop their scouting. If they want diversity in PvZ they need to address the problem of SG opener being too good vs. the rest. As I am a pessimistic person I am expecting a nerf to Protoss to boost the creativity >< And a slight cannon buff made phoenix worse? People still are going to open phoenixes vs zerg because it's just better for early game. Toss isn't going to open something else instead of stargate just because cannons got a +10 damage buff. What this will do is prevent zerg from surprise tech switching the toss, but other than that, still expect SG opening into immortals and eventually zealots archons. this is what concerns me too. Phoenix openers are just good. This is just an unnecessary nail in the coffin of mutas in PvZ.
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Bisutopia19035 Posts
Blizzard, please let us turn the lights off on the map with a civilian and stack cannons. Thanks.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
People still are going to open phoenixes vs zerg because it's just better for early game
Dropping a stargate immediately after expand is not the best way to stop the popular Z all-ins; you can't effectively use phoenix's to deny either the super early drops or the later drops that come w/ overlord speed and queens.
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If they're going to change the Thor to single target anti-air, why don't they just bring back the payload transformation from HotS.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
On April 27 2016 01:58 fenrysk wrote: If they're going to change the Thor to single target anti-air, why don't they just bring back the payload transformation from HotS.
Should never have been removed!
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3) Thor change This unit also needs more range and a movement speed buff imo.
This also. One of the reasons the Thor (and Mech as we known it) is not worth producing in most cases is that you cannot cover all of the faster base expands that you need in LOTV, plus you cannot punish your opponent for being greedy because by the time the Thor army is halfway accros the map you have already lost all of your SCV's and half of your base to trade.
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On April 22 2016 18:41 MockHamill wrote: Thor change is good but Thor needs more range if order to be able to fight Tempest/Carriers/BroodLords. Their anti-air DPS should also be higher.
Also, if Protoss goes air and Terran counters by going Thors, he can easily switch back to Immortals and collect a free win.
I forsee a huge problem in TvZ with this change though. If Zerg goes mass Corruptors, Liberators will not work any more. So Zerg can go around killing your based with mass Corrupters faster than you can catch them with your Thors.
I guess going for a base trade will be a viable option though.
I don't think it's such a bad thing that libs are getting less support.. I personally don't like the way the unit functions so I will enjoy the change! and I play z :D
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On April 27 2016 01:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 00:48 phodacbiet wrote:On April 26 2016 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:On April 26 2016 16:26 Hularuns wrote: Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute. The problem is that Phoenix is the only answer and thanks to increased economic start and delayed tech you have to open with SG every fucking time. Which means no diversity and "creativity" in PvZ. Though the problem is probably in the second section too - phoenix opener is simply good. You make damage to Zerg eco, scout Zerg, stop their scouting. If they want diversity in PvZ they need to address the problem of SG opener being too good vs. the rest. As I am a pessimistic person I am expecting a nerf to Protoss to boost the creativity >< And a slight cannon buff made phoenix worse? People still are going to open phoenixes vs zerg because it's just better for early game. Toss isn't going to open something else instead of stargate just because cannons got a +10 damage buff. What this will do is prevent zerg from surprise tech switching the toss, but other than that, still expect SG opening into immortals and eventually zealots archons. this is what concerns me too. Phoenix openers are just good. This is just an unnecessary nail in the coffin of mutas in PvZ.
Completely agree with you, now Mutalisks are unviable in ZvP when they were already difficult/niche to use in the match up since Protoss opens blind Stargate because...well why wouldn't you open Phoenix? It's a great opener, takes map control and kills drones every time even at the pro level.
Especially since Mutalisks already went from the go to harass unit to the go to "build 8 and no more because it's wasted gas" in ZvT and an opening unit that has to be transitioned out of in ZvZ, all of these anti mutalisk changes are just striking me as completely unnecessary and over kill.
The Mutalisk takes alot of skill to use effectively, why is it being removed from most parts of the game? For dumb units like the Ravager and invulnerable Nydus? This is not the right direction.
Liberators receiving an anti - air nerf is more then justified. A unit that can a move Mutalisks, A move Corruptors, shut down mining bases and provide massive DPS in frontal engagements? Yea, a nerf is a bit overdue.
Speed Banshees are absolutely terrifying and a nightmare to deal with, if this change goes through I foresee the days of Hellion/Banshee becoming super standard in ZvT, I've played a few games and they are fantastic hatchery killers that move almost as fast as Mutalisks.
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Mutas are in such a silly place if 2 out of 3 races needs +bio on their AA structure. If they start giving terrans trouble, here's betting the missile turret is going to get +bio as well.
The latest thor change essentially turns it into an obese goliath. Many of its problems stems from its obesity. Might as well turn it into a goliath.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
Protoss opens blind Stargate because...well why wouldn't you open Phoenix?
Because it's not the best opener against most of the popular and strong ZvP all ins that contribute largely to high Z winrates (especially on certain maps) at the moment.
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Actually all the strong ZvP allins are basically designed to work around the pheonix at the moment.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
In what way?
------
Especially since Mutalisks already went from the go to harass unit
Pretty hard counters have been emphasized instead of adjusting mutalisks and some other core units (like stalker AA-vs-light damage) to be able to play without those hard counters on the field
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What about nerf the regen of the mutas insted of all this +bio damage?? Normal units have a 0.27 points per old blizz second, mutas 1 hit point. We can get a middle point there.
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Liberator Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now?
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote: Liberator Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now?
7x2 (+1 per upgrade)
vs new:
4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade)
So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved.
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On April 27 2016 06:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote: Liberator Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now? 7x2 (+1 per upgrade) vs new: 4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade) So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved.
Thanks
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On April 27 2016 05:39 Cyro wrote:In what way? ------ Pretty hard counters have been emphasized instead of adjusting mutalisks and some other core units (like stalker AA-vs-light damage) to be able to play without those hard counters on the field Ling bling queen all ins?
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On April 27 2016 01:58 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 01:58 fenrysk wrote: If they're going to change the Thor to single target anti-air, why don't they just bring back the payload transformation from HotS. Should never have been removed!
I completely agree, and now they're trying to feed us something worse as a replacement
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
On April 27 2016 07:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:39 Cyro wrote:In what way? ------ Especially since Mutalisks already went from the go to harass unit Pretty hard counters have been emphasized instead of adjusting mutalisks and some other core units (like stalker AA-vs-light damage) to be able to play without those hard counters on the field Ling bling queen all ins?
I don't understand what you're trying to say here
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Don't like the supply increase for the swarm host. If I get 5 of them just for harassing it takes me 20 supply which I no longer have for my army. Not good, I guess.
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I want they implement thor change ASAP to let pro players find out because it doesn't hurt current meta anyway.
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so does thor change mean that sky toss can used Void rays against mech now? Does it also mean that Void rays are finally good vs thors now with the charges?
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On April 27 2016 06:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote: Liberator Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now? 7x2 (+1 per upgrade) vs new: 4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade) So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved. when Mass stalkers are already decent against libs, thischange just makes blink stalker storm chargelot armies unbeatable in late game with libs at least
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
On April 27 2016 08:18 MiniFotToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 06:33 Cyro wrote:On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote: Liberator Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now? 7x2 (+1 per upgrade) vs new: 4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade) So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved. when Mass stalkers are already decent against libs, thischange just makes blink stalker storm chargelot armies unbeatable in late game with libs at least
This is their anti air damage, the proposed change doesn't change damage vs ground or light air
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On April 26 2016 22:36 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: even though not directly related to the changes proposed, i still don't understand how Blizzards game designers are ok with shooting pylons. Worst game design idea ever and the fact that this will stay as last version of SC2 just makes it sad and pathetic. Now with photon cannon buff, maybe its time this shit is removed from the game? No. Unless you are OK with huge buffs to gateway units.
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On April 27 2016 01:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 00:48 phodacbiet wrote:On April 26 2016 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:On April 26 2016 16:26 Hularuns wrote: Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute. The problem is that Phoenix is the only answer and thanks to increased economic start and delayed tech you have to open with SG every fucking time. Which means no diversity and "creativity" in PvZ. Though the problem is probably in the second section too - phoenix opener is simply good. You make damage to Zerg eco, scout Zerg, stop their scouting. If they want diversity in PvZ they need to address the problem of SG opener being too good vs. the rest. As I am a pessimistic person I am expecting a nerf to Protoss to boost the creativity >< And a slight cannon buff made phoenix worse? People still are going to open phoenixes vs zerg because it's just better for early game. Toss isn't going to open something else instead of stargate just because cannons got a +10 damage buff. What this will do is prevent zerg from surprise tech switching the toss, but other than that, still expect SG opening into immortals and eventually zealots archons. this is what concerns me too. Phoenix openers are just good. This is just an unnecessary nail in the coffin of mutas in PvZ. Where is this "Phoenix openers are just good" idea coming from? Phoenix is an OK unit, but aside from denying the Muta switch, they are worse than the alternative at harassing as well as fighting. If I don't have to fear dying to Mutas instantly, why would I ever make Phoenixes, when I can harass the Zerg with Adepts or DTs and deal a ton more damage?
The one and only reason why every Protoss player and his mom is opening with Phoenix is because it's the only reliable way you can deal with Mutas. If Stalkers were good against Mutas no one would ever make Phoenixes.
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On April 27 2016 01:58 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 01:58 fenrysk wrote: If they're going to change the Thor to single target anti-air, why don't they just bring back the payload transformation from HotS. Should never have been removed! It was removed because it was hardly ever used. Its primary use was making the thor prioritize ground targets instead of air. It's going to take more than bumping its dps up a bit to make it useful.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
It was removed because it was hardly ever used
It was hardly ever used because the number was too low, not because a thor that can switch between AA modes was an inferior unit design to one that only has a single target air attack.
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On April 27 2016 09:05 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 01:58 Cyro wrote:On April 27 2016 01:58 fenrysk wrote: If they're going to change the Thor to single target anti-air, why don't they just bring back the payload transformation from HotS. Should never have been removed! It was removed because it was hardly ever used. Its primary use was making the thor prioritize ground targets instead of air. It's going to take more than bumping its dps up a bit to make it useful. It was very usefull in many situations, the nerf wasnt needed. They could leave it, but nope, random nerfs/buffs are "better". The new "buffed" thor damage output is way too low. Also with removing the AOE we are forced to make more libs, but libs will do worse vs corruptors. The lib nerf is way too much. Speed Banshees are a nice gimmick, but will force the game into even more mass air games.
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I can't believe the amount of Zergs that are complaining about their race being 'weak'. Has no one watched any pro-games of Zerg just techning straight for Ultras only for them to win instantly? Not to mention lurkers are still a huge pain to deal with in PvZ due to the range nerf of colossus and the high DPS.
Toss always goes stargate because it's insanely hard to deal with the mobility/harass potential of mutas. Sure, stalkers move fast and can blink, but you can't just traverse from your 3rd or 4th to the main as quick as mutas fly. By the time you get there, the mutas would've killed at least 5 probes if not more. Building cannons would be viable, but then if you over commit to building 3+ cannons, you're behind in production.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
Sure, stalkers move fast and can blink, but you can't just traverse from your 3rd or 4th to the main as quick as mutas fly
More importantly IMO, you can't take a great trade when you get there. Mutas fight well against stalkers because they scale better and stalker anti-light-AA is very poor.
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4713 Posts
On April 27 2016 05:47 StarscreamG1 wrote: What about nerf the regen of the mutas insted of all this +bio damage?? Normal units have a 0.27 points per old blizz second, mutas 1 hit point. We can get a middle point there.
Common sense? What is this madness?! Blizzard shall have none of it!
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Wow so I get the OP Hots Thor back. Atleast in HotS there was no reason to ever stay on aoe only after you massed Thors against bad players that stack air units. Made me rage every pro game when they didn't switch even if it was against BCs. Okay every TvT in HotS made me rage when they went for air units instead for a ground composition that wrecked Air because of the alternate fire mode. Now people need to learn that Thor Medivac juggle though.
And it was never used because you had to use actions to unlock a firemode that needs micro. Like removing auto-charge from Zealots to make them better while micoroed. Game is too fast and rewards macro to much to use actions on micro moves that hurt you unless you invest a certain amount of apm in it.
But what they now try is to make Liberators and Thors more different in their attacks. That way the zoning synergy Thors always had together with air units applies to Liberators better.
Not sure how everything will work out, but I guess I might test it.
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On April 27 2016 10:08 MoonyD wrote: I can't believe the amount of Zergs that are complaining about their race being 'weak'. Has no one watched any pro-games of Zerg just techning straight for Ultras only for them to win instantly? Not to mention lurkers are still a huge pain to deal with in PvZ due to the range nerf of colossus and the high DPS.
Toss always goes stargate because it's insanely hard to deal with the mobility/harass potential of mutas. Sure, stalkers move fast and can blink, but you can't just traverse from your 3rd or 4th to the main as quick as mutas fly. By the time you get there, the mutas would've killed at least 5 probes if not more. Building cannons would be viable, but then if you over commit to building 3+ cannons, you're behind in production.
It's hard to watch pro zerg games when zergs are getting knocked out of tourneys left and right :D. Toss always go stargate because it's literally an "all you can do" tech path. Getting cheesed by zerg? NP lift roaches/lings or make an oracle/ void ray. Need to harass, NP make an oracle. Needs to contain zerg? NP just make 4-5 phoenixes (and a bonus that you can shut down early game mut muts!). People aren't going stargate because its literally the safest and best thing you can do before getting double robo immortals. If you have problems with lurkers, then make immortals -- those things literally gives 0 fucks about lurkers .
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On April 27 2016 08:15 MiniFotToss wrote: so does thor change mean that sky toss can used Void rays against mech now? Does it also mean that Void rays are finally good vs thors now with the charges?
What Thors? Who will ever make a Thor without splash? You are just asking to be kited or terrain abused with more mobile ranged air. Maybe it could have a use in TvT? On second thought as soon as your Thors are 1/3 of the way to your opponent's base you just got Tankivac'd in your production. So, who will ever make non-splash Thors?
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On April 27 2016 10:08 MoonyD wrote: I can't believe the amount of Zergs that are complaining about their race being 'weak'. Has no one watched any pro-games of Zerg just techning straight for Ultras only for them to win instantly? Not to mention lurkers are still a huge pain to deal with in PvZ due to the range nerf of colossus and the high DPS.
Toss always goes stargate because it's insanely hard to deal with the mobility/harass potential of mutas. Sure, stalkers move fast and can blink, but you can't just traverse from your 3rd or 4th to the main as quick as mutas fly. By the time you get there, the mutas would've killed at least 5 probes if not more. Building cannons would be viable, but then if you over commit to building 3+ cannons, you're behind in production.
Teching straight to Ultralisks isn't what it used to be tbh, Terrans usually know how to end the game once they see the transition starting.
At least at the pro level I see Zerg's barely breaking even, Dark isn't nearly as dominate in ZvT as he is in ZvP and he's the best Zerg right now, I don't really see any other Zerg's making waves in either match up, so I'm not sure where this "Omg zerg is just crushing face at the pro level" I'd be surprised to see them eeking out more then 50% vs T and P.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
People are going stargate because its literally the safest and best thing you can do before getting double robo immortals
You're kinda on the right track there but not quite
Stargate is a practically required part of double robo immortal + chargelot play because that army comp cannot effectively play into or adapt to mutalisks
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The state of ZvT is ridiculous and Terran will get speed banshee !
Zerg who wants to counter drops play have to mutas, but due to the larvas nerf, Terran only have to push on frontal and nearly always win (honestly just send me the link where zerg play LBM and manage to beat the bio/tank push when he doesn't have a strong lead on the early game, i obviously mean kor level games). Or he open roach not to die on the ground and get abused by the unsane mobility of medivac because he has no anti-air.
And Terran will get banshee as fast as mutas, with 6 range, cloack, from just armory (just unlock hellbat too !!).
Protoss will have a photon canon buff vs mutas/corruptors/locusts/overlord/all the lifted units, but no nerf on phoenix opener ! They will just continue opening phoenix, but it will be even stronger !
And Zerg got want : sh cheaper but more supply. Even if you really want to try SH, phoenix opener shut down SH ! And they are totally useless vs Terran ! And 4 supply, the unit is already afk the most time, now you will have 20 dead supply that shot once per minutes !
Who will get them ? Nobody, still unbind the touch.
Speed banshee can't be added to the games, or as Zerg you will just forfeit when you meet a terran (or do a all-in pre-banshee), it's just insanely imbalance, you have nothing as zerg to deal with it at this timing without getting behind.
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SH chance makes no sense, bit cheaper but the supply cost was already too high for it to be viable, your main army is just too weak if you make a few of them.
Banshee speed upgrade will make ZvT a living hell, probably have to go 2 base muta or die trying.
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This photon cannon change is 4 years overdue.
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Do not agree with the banshee change - this is not the kind of play you want to encourage, especially in a MU like TvZ where T holds all the cards in the midgame. Why give them MORE?
We have enough super fast units in this game already. No more! As it is now the upgrade is gated behind the fusion core which means it's only really bought by T who are going mass air - which is how it should be.
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On April 27 2016 15:27 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: SH chance makes no sense, bit cheaper but the supply cost was already too high for it to be viable, your main army is just too weak if you make a few of them.
Banshee speed upgrade will make ZvT a living hell, probably have to go 2 base muta or die trying.
Pretty much this, even with the speed change on the Fusion Core they are FAST as shit, Mutalisks barely catch them.
I'm more along the lines of a Banshee speed buff at armory (which also unlocks Hellbats so wtf) will wildly tip the scales in favor of Terran in the match up, with blind Spire first play or some type of Hydralisk defense, and we all know how building Hydralisks in ZvT goes for the Zerg.
What good is letting Corruptors rule the air if they can't even catch the Banshees in the first place?
On top of all of that, the Swarm Host change is literally retarded, probably one of the worst changes I've seen come from the balance team, my God man just remove that unit from the game and just be done with it.
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They should address cyclone if banshee didn't work out.
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The reason why you should have never switched from AoE to SingleTarget vs Zerg is pretty simple: THOR is a big fat giant robot. It has much range, but Single Target high damage BURST means you have to focus fire. But thors are too clumsy to Focusfire, too big +slow to engange something like "Broodlords". Flying untis have the advantage and disadvantage of clumping. Broodlords may or may not l win in a "head to head" fight vs Thors. But Broodlords can out-Flank Thors. While Thors try to move arround with broodlings of the ground to shoot EVERY broodlord is able to fire, same for Tempests. From a 4 Hex 200/200 Supply ball of flying DEATH FROM ABOVE with insane range. Same amount of thors would fill 2 screens, and with any obstacles in the way or even just map topgraphy....GG THOR.
Only cool use of Single Target : counter PDD by using a non-projectile attack.
What makes EVERYTHING even worse is the Air>Ground targeting of the AI. So 5 stray, non clumped mutas and 30 roaches attack 5 thors, those thors would die, if they waste 20 seconds on killing the mutas.
The Thor is too big, too slow, too expensive for Legacy of the voids fast paced 10 Minute Games on 6 bases each.
EDIT: IF you want to make the thor usefull..and I am going full out " Make Terran great again" here..then give it the ability to shoot AIr and Ground at the same time.
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On April 27 2016 01:26 BisuDagger wrote: Blizzard, please let us turn the lights off on the map with a civilian and stack cannons. Thanks. Ahh, the nostalgia.
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On April 27 2016 10:08 MoonyD wrote: I can't believe the amount of Zergs that are complaining about their race being 'weak'. Has no one watched any pro-games of Zerg just techning straight for Ultras only for them to win instantly? Not to mention lurkers are still a huge pain to deal with in PvZ due to the range nerf of colossus and the high DPS.
Toss always goes stargate because it's insanely hard to deal with the mobility/harass potential of mutas. Sure, stalkers move fast and can blink, but you can't just traverse from your 3rd or 4th to the main as quick as mutas fly. By the time you get there, the mutas would've killed at least 5 probes if not more. Building cannons would be viable, but then if you over commit to building 3+ cannons, you're behind in production. Probably you think it is ok to build 6+ spore crawlers and still lose 10 drones to the phoneix.
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On April 28 2016 04:19 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 10:08 MoonyD wrote: I can't believe the amount of Zergs that are complaining about their race being 'weak'. Has no one watched any pro-games of Zerg just techning straight for Ultras only for them to win instantly? Not to mention lurkers are still a huge pain to deal with in PvZ due to the range nerf of colossus and the high DPS.
Toss always goes stargate because it's insanely hard to deal with the mobility/harass potential of mutas. Sure, stalkers move fast and can blink, but you can't just traverse from your 3rd or 4th to the main as quick as mutas fly. By the time you get there, the mutas would've killed at least 5 probes if not more. Building cannons would be viable, but then if you over commit to building 3+ cannons, you're behind in production. Probably you think it is ok to build 6+ spore crawlers and still lose 10 drones to the phoneix. It has always been that way with phoenix openers, but maybe it's more painful for the Z now with less strong injects
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
On April 28 2016 06:24 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2016 04:19 Aegwynn wrote:On April 27 2016 10:08 MoonyD wrote: I can't believe the amount of Zergs that are complaining about their race being 'weak'. Has no one watched any pro-games of Zerg just techning straight for Ultras only for them to win instantly? Not to mention lurkers are still a huge pain to deal with in PvZ due to the range nerf of colossus and the high DPS.
Toss always goes stargate because it's insanely hard to deal with the mobility/harass potential of mutas. Sure, stalkers move fast and can blink, but you can't just traverse from your 3rd or 4th to the main as quick as mutas fly. By the time you get there, the mutas would've killed at least 5 probes if not more. Building cannons would be viable, but then if you over commit to building 3+ cannons, you're behind in production. Probably you think it is ok to build 6+ spore crawlers and still lose 10 drones to the phoneix. It has always been that way with phoenix openers, but maybe it's more painful for the Z now with less strong injects
They have more hatcheries to offset that and other macro mechanics are hugely nerfed as well. Legacy chrono is probably half as useful or less as WOL/HOTS chrono
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Q. One of major complaint from korean players is "Blizzard only accept feedback from NA/EU players who have bad skilled players, so game become weird". Is feedback from korean players lower than from NA/EU? or rate of reflection of feedback from NA/EU is major?
A. We also heard same complaint from foreign players. Korean pros complain about why Blizzard heard voice only from foreign pros, and Foreign complain about same thing(only from Korean pros). We can't take sides. We hear all voices from pros from Korea, NA, and ordinary users, so we agree that all players have same thought. For example from last balance test map, thor and liberator is from Korean feedback and +bio damage to photon cannon was from ordinary user level. WE DON'T TAKE SIDES. LEL..... https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4gqo6v/new_david_kims_interview_with_inven_game_new_site/
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what about instead of doing useless banshee buffs they dont make proper maps to play on
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
However, we can't buff colossus now because protoss is not weak now
In pros, mutalisks are not used often, but in ordinary users level, mutalisks may be a problem. So we wanted not to affect this patch to pro level
"Ordinary users level" - I think this is completely backwards, any imbalance or lack of available playstyles is magnified at the highest level of play.
I think there is a big mistake here in assuming that because mutalisks are not used often, they are not affecting the matchup.
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