Balance change to nerf TvT doomdrops - Page 5
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lastprobeALIVE
United States973 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On February 25 2017 21:39 cutler wrote: Best advice on TL General Forum for a very long time! Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. I mean it's obvious to look for an ingame solution/ build for something you are facing, but if it's unfun and frustrating for a majority, then thinking about a solution for a game that can still change (unlike BW) is more than reasonable imo. Cuz following your logic, there should be no balance and design patches caused by the community's initative. We just accept everything and are happy when we can vote for something new. | ||
ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. This does not logically necessitate that he was wrong if the sc2 community are a bunch of petulant whiners. if. Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. damn, we better close the thread because you're sick of people having balance discussions. We should never want the game that we love to improve and never question the designers' decisions. Lo! a strawman on the horizon! It's hilarious to me that this argument is getting spit in my face when I literally JUST got in an argument over the internet(very productive use of my time if you ask me), defending the pursuit of balance, regardless of how "close" you get, always striving for that perfect balance is absolutely an interesting topic. Let me be very clear, I am not saying "meh, its close enough, stop complaining, just be grateful for what blizzard gave you." That's fucking ridiculous. Thanks for assuming the best in me by strawmanning what I said super fucking hard and ignoring the bulk of my message. Appreciate it. Playing game designer for a day and pretending you have THE fix for the game, then suggesting an idea that absolutely impacts every terran matchup, pretending it doesnt, then dropping a shit tier hashtag is not a fucking thread. at least not one i'd spend my time defending. There are good conversations about balance. They happen. I promise. that being said... I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. | ||
Phaenoman
568 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:47 ItsFunToLose wrote: This does not logically necessitate that he was wrong if the sc2 community are a bunch of petulant whiners. if. Lo! a strawman on the horizon! It's hilarious to me that this argument is getting spit in my face when I literally JUST got in an argument over the internet(very productive use of my time if you ask me), defending the pursuit of balance, regardless of how "close" you get, always striving for that perfect balance is absolutely an interesting topic. Let me be very clear, I am not saying "meh, its close enough, stop complaining, just be grateful for what blizzard gave you." That's fucking ridiculous. Thanks for assuming the best in me by strawmanning what I said super fucking hard and ignoring the bulk of my message. Appreciate it. Playing game designer for a day and pretending you have THE fix for the game, then suggesting an idea that absolutely impacts every terran matchup, pretending it doesnt, then dropping a shit tier hashtag is not a fucking thread. at least not one i'd spend my time defending. There are good conversations about balance. They happen. I promise. that being said... I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. Impressive response and numbers. I am looking forward to the results of your research! For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves. And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. Dude, pls. | ||
woopr
United States110 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:47 ItsFunToLose wrote: + Show Spoiler + He has stated over and over that X isn't a problem when the community brings it up, only to be wrong and months later have to change X anyway. This does not logically necessitate that he was wrong if the sc2 community are a bunch of petulant whiners. if. Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. damn, we better close the thread because you're sick of people having balance discussions. We should never want the game that we love to improve and never question the designers' decisions. Lo! a strawman on the horizon! It's hilarious to me that this argument is getting spit in my face when I literally JUST got in an argument over the internet(very productive use of my time if you ask me), defending the pursuit of balance, regardless of how "close" you get, always striving for that perfect balance is absolutely an interesting topic. Let me be very clear, I am not saying "meh, its close enough, stop complaining, just be grateful for what blizzard gave you." That's fucking ridiculous. Thanks for assuming the best in me by strawmanning what I said super fucking hard and ignoring the bulk of my message. Appreciate it. Playing game designer for a day and pretending you have THE fix for the game, then suggesting an idea that absolutely impacts every terran matchup, pretending it doesnt, then dropping a shit tier hashtag is not a fucking thread. at least not one i'd spend my time defending. There are good conversations about balance. They happen. I promise. that being said... I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. i already responded to the tvp/tvz """""""""issues""""""""" please read the thread if you're going to comment. i'll post it again: On February 17 2017 07:57 woopr wrote: and @ the people complaining about vZ and vP being nerfed how often do you actually doom drop with tanks in those match ups? you can still save tanks in retreat just fine seeing as you will nearly always have a higher medivac count than tank count it's not like the game is 100% balanced right now anyways so who cares if this MICROTESIMAL nerf to other match ups is a side effect if it makes TvT so much better to watch/play overall you're just flaming and showing your huge lack of starcraft knowledge. you have no good argument why the change is bad so stop trolling the thread | ||
Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:47 ItsFunToLose wrote: I'd bet everything I own that a double blind study would conclusively show that terran players(on average, not you, necessarily) are more likely to whine and less likely to persevere in the face of a challenge. These are behaviors we have a pretty solid handle at identifying accurately, it would be trivial to set up. (or do you think we have perfect racial balance w.r.t. whining?) For the record, I am not calling terran players whiney dorks who give up and cant think for themselves.(yet) I am simply stating that I believe that it is scientifically possible to identify character traits that correlate with (not cause) choosing to play terran for a large majority of your games(perhaps >50% of games(n>50) played as a specific race to qualify as a "main" of that race. willing to entertain other definitions that don't also include the random players i.e. people with 30 games total, 11, 5, 14 games for ZPT respectively would not make you a terran main even if in your mind you "switched" and played 14 straight). And the two character traits I am choosing to focus on are an individuals propensity to whine and give up. It is my hypothesis that Terran exhibits these traits a statistically significant amount of the time. the null hypothesis would obviously be that the three races whine equally. I hope you get your research published, I know I'm looking forward to read it. I'm sure PubMed will be dying to have it, or maybe Cochrane. | ||
lestye
United States4104 Posts
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Hannibaal
41 Posts
I have seen the series of Maru against Ryung, that doesn't seem to me an RTS. | ||
cutler
Germany609 Posts
On February 25 2017 22:29 Phaenoman wrote: Yea, sit there and do not use ur mental ability to improve or enhance any current situation. I mean it's obvious to look for an ingame solution/ build for something you are facing, but if it's unfun and frustrating for a majority, then thinking about a solution for a game that can still change (unlike BW) is more than reasonable imo. Cuz following your logic, there should be no balance and design patches caused by the community's initative. We just accept everything and are happy when we can vote for something new. we can have balance changes...but majorty of TL and Reddit User think they are better designers than Blizzard. Suggest your changes but dont get frustated if people dont like it...seems like a lot of users want to change the game cause they think it is not fun to play that way. Take a break and come back some months later. Too much negativity around these days regarding minor balance issues. I agree that Doomdrops get boring... I would pay to see Threads with proper numbers and statistics again that proove that something is wrong. Today..."oh i can't win..well lets go and hate on Blizzard cause i am a much better game desginer yolo." | ||
Fatam
1986 Posts
(and a lot of this is about TvT, so of course there is no MU % there ) But just because it isn't something that can be quantified well, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be changed. During GGlord/winfestor era the ZvX winrates were actually pretty even, but the games were not fun (or fun to watch) so that is why it was changed. p.s. - stop trying to shame people for giving balance ideas just because they aren't working for Blizzard. It's sillyness. Community feedback has and will continue to be important. Of course, not every person's idea may be as well thought-out as another, but we shouldn't put a gag order on them just for giving their ideas. If the idea is bad, it won't gain headway.. so no worries. | ||
SiaBBo
Finland131 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On February 27 2017 06:30 SiaBBo wrote: Bad idea since doom drops are not even a big problem. They are part of the game like they were in Brood War. In Brood War players did drops with 10+ Dropships. Without that possibility the games would have been dreadful. Limiting drops would make the matchup even more turtle-heavy which wouldn't be a good thing at all. except that you don't play with ultra mobile marine + dropship in BW. it's not even an option. vultures can eventually kill the worker line, but they can't kill the command center. it's not so difficult keeping track of your army in sc2 in comparison, and drops are an easy and quicker option in this game. | ||
TheKhyira
115 Posts
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Fatam
1986 Posts
On February 27 2017 06:30 SiaBBo wrote: Bad idea since doom drops are not even a big problem. They are part of the game like they were in Brood War. In Brood War players did drops with 10+ Dropships. Without that possibility the games would have been dreadful. Limiting drops would make the matchup even more turtle-heavy which wouldn't be a good thing at all. I'd say that's false equivocation because TvT in SC2 certainly does not = TvT in BW | ||
Sound1
France93 Posts
On February 25 2017 15:29 MiCroLiFe wrote: I rather play whit doom drops than playin a 40 minute game every tvt. camping fest. whoever attacks first lose. Yeah. I have started this game at the end of WoL, and if my memory serves me correctly TvT was boring as hell. In the lowest leagues, terran turtling since BC pop out ...So annoying. How many times I left the game even before take a fight while we were at 20 minutes in game. I know medivac boost is very frustrating in TvT. Doomdrops can easily reverse the momentum for a player to another, but I suppose that is LOTV...play faster die faster. Some among us like that. Furthermore, medivac boost is just vital in TvZ and TvP to catch defences off guard, especially with photon overcharge and super queens. | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
On February 16 2017 07:57 woopr wrote: this doesn't affect TvZ/TvP at all and makes TvT less retarded/insanely punishing TY doom dropped soO's main with tanks in GSL. | ||
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