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On July 05 2011 21:41 Sina92 wrote: How does this build work against 2g robo? It seems too me that you'd fall behind in tech against all robo play.
2 gate robo doesn't really mean anything... What build are you refering to ? It really depends on the robo timings, probe cuts, 2nd gas timing etc...
Yes against straight up tech builds that aren't safe against anything this build will be a little behind. Vs most builds that take 4 gating into account, you will be on equal grounds gas and tech wise.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote: the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge
He's talking to you like like you're a low caliber player because you're acting like it. Every top player would agree you're completely off base and just bringing this topic down with uninformed opinions. According to the strategy forum guidelines, you shouldn't be speaking if you don't know what you're talking about.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas?
This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:10 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:40 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates.
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I've found that I like to start the zealot and just cancel it to confuse my opponents as they will a) think I am 4 gating for a while or b)start it and in the case of scouted cheese don't cancel it. If things go as they should, I cancel it and throw down a second gateway and go for a delayed 3 stalker count, plus sentry, and warp in 3 more stalkers at the same time 4gate warps its first actual round in.
Of course this is even more "risky" than the build mentioned in the OP but assuming you're diamond league or above you can probably forcefield your ramp and split a clumpy army in half or more quite easily and squeeze out a higher and higher unit advantage... The difference is you get 26-27 probes around 6 minutes instead of that zealot. I chronoboost the nexus twice and then my gateways for cheese, or my cybernetics for warpgate vs a scouted likely 4gate. I like going into robo because a common backup plan from failure 4gate is often blink stalkers or dts to edge out an eventual expansion/kill you, either of which you can easily handle with this build by getting immortals/observers to defend the highground, and get your own blink at your own leisure because you'll have been getting more gas all game.
I have tested this build and with the second gas and probe advantage you can actually build the robo after the first forcefield army micro split at the ramp... and still continue to outproduce your enemy.
I've had people try to contain me while expanding(one gas -> sentry into tech+expand?)... but then i just walk across the map and kill them so...
This build is not possible on a map like taldarim, which has no ramp. You're pretty much forced into playing safe as possible there, or as dangerous as possible.
I'm not a fan of cannon rushing, or proxy zealoting. I feel like a gold level player can take games off masters or even grand master players with the right luck using these no skill strategies.
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So what happens when you realise you're behind because the opponent goes a tech heavy build eg. fast colossus? Expand probably? You do have more gateways and units after all so you should be safe for the time being.
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On July 04 2011 21:10 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too? This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate). However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem. Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp.
What is your response to a 2 gate with this build?
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Canada13372 Posts
On July 05 2011 23:32 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:10 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too? This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate). However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem. Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp. What is your response to a 2 gate with this build?
I would assume the same as any response to a 2 gate which is to not tech fast and change the build (at least in close positions, you need to match the zealot count and rely on faster reinforcements - you can allot chronoboost to WG for example and counter later and faster b4 their WG finishes)
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Canada13372 Posts
On July 05 2011 17:17 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 gogo
Seriously stream please. Then the guy needs to earn his right onto the forums back a la Pokebunny v Plexa showmatch from a while ago.
Crud, this is double post :/ forgive please
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On July 05 2011 23:32 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:10 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 21:02 ThatGuy89 wrote:On July 04 2011 20:47 Geiko wrote:On July 04 2011 20:41 ThatGuy89 wrote: wow looks nice. If you've engineered this build yourself youve done really well with all the timings. This only works against a 4 gate though doesnt it? if he goes gate robo gate gate and gets immortals and then techs to collosus. Or if he straight up rushes to DT, youre gonna be far behind arent you? It depends what you mean by far behind. You won't be behind in gas which is what PvP is all about. You'll be a bit behind if you chose twilight tech, as blink vs robo is hard to play. But not greatly behind. The rock-scisor-paper aspect of PvP isn't something that can be solved through a build order, but this is the BO that I like to do to still be able to keep up in tech if I chose the wrong tech path. I explained how to deal with DTs, but the most effective way of stopping it is with good intuition that they are coming (poking, scouting with probes etc...) And yeah I did work on those timings alone (took me a lot of time optimising so everything would fall into place at 5:50) so do you just do this in every pvp you play? or do you have to scout something that makes you do this? i know in the 10 gate game you scouted what he was doing, but what if you scout and maybe see him throw down a robo. Would you just abandon this altogether? what about on tal darim, would you do this on that map too? This build is tailored to be safe against standard 12 gate 14 gaz 16 core 17/18 zealot openings. Incidentally, it also works vs 10 gate openings (single gate). However you will have to adapt against a heavy gas play, or 2 gate play. (and as said above no zealot). Since the build is entirely standard up to the point where you scout, this shouldn't be a problem. Regarding Tal Darim and Scrap, as I've said, I'm not too sure. With good micro maybe... At least in the lower divisions I would definitely do this as the 4 gate is always 15 to 20 seconds late. Top level PvP, this probably isn't viable on maps with no ramp. What is your response to a 2 gate with this build?
Do your usual response vs a 2 gate (i.e. not do this build). This build stays 100% standard for a long time so you should scout it in time before any deviations appear. Personally, I get a second gate out as soon as I see the 2 gate, and make non stop units out of them if that's what he is doing. The main point in defending a non-proxied two gate is to not use chrono boost on your units (even though that can be tempting). Defenders advantage should compensate for any chronoboost he might have used, and chronoboosting your units will sometimes be overreacting and giving him the econ lead. Some chronoboost on units is needed however if you scout him late on big 4 player maps. You should also prepare for your own counter attack., Against adelscott type openings, I like to transition into a 4 gate counter push while teching to blink.
On July 05 2011 22:24 divinesage wrote: So what happens when you realise you're behind because the opponent goes a tech heavy build eg. fast colossus? Expand probably? You do have more gateways and units after all so you should be safe for the time being.
Blink build should win you the game right here and there if your opponent is going straight for colo without immortals. Like I said in the topic, (and like wolf said yesterday in code A I think), "harrassy" blink style is the only way to deal with fast robo openings when going blink. Just make sure he doesn't push out and if he does, just base trade. If you can snipe the colossi, you can stall a lot of time with sentries at your ramp and win the base trade easily. Otherwise expand yes, and start your robo tech or chargelot archon.
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On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates.
I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player.
I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play.
From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons.
So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you.
I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me.
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On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me.
You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile.
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When you say "The game is practically won if he 4gates" you're just plain wrong. He has more unit producing capabilities than you. Eventually he'll overpower you if he isn't stupid about it.
User was warned for this post
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On July 06 2011 01:35 Deathmare wrote: When you say "The game is practically won if he 4gates" you're just plain wrong. He has more unit producing capabilities than you. Eventually he'll overpower you if he isn't stupid about it.
No, you are just plain wrong.
4 gates runs out of ressources very fast. Fast enough so he doesn't have a significant unit lead on you. He cannot go up the ramp or he will get FFed and lose everything. The only thing he can hope to do is setup a contain. You can easily squeeze in a twilight council once the first 5:50 push is over. Once your tech is done, if he hasn't pulled back by then you can just kill everything he has. You are way ahead as : -he has lost some units trying to go up your ramp -he has wasted ressources on a 4th gate -he has cut probes and greatly delayed his second gas.
For anyone who knows how to play PvP, anyone of these conditions means that you will have a VERY hard time getting back into the game.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote: Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile.
Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that.
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Wow I really thank you Geiko for this build. Won me every game so far and finally pvp is less coinflip for me, although i don't follow it up with blink if he doesn't 4gate but with chargelot archon. Is this viable(note that im only top8 plat)?
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Thank you, I've been looking for something gateway heavy that I can tech out of. I was so sick of going robo in pvp. I'm not high enough to really talk, but wouldn't a 1 gate 1 sentry 1 zealot 1 stalker push crush this? I finished the post but tldr for comments. I apologize if someone said something similar. Also, you can't really deny any scouting/cannon rush. Is there a way to get a zealot out earlier, or should I just wall with my builder probe? Edit- fail the person above me said something similar in remark to the proxy pylon
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On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options)
Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it.
Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever.
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On July 06 2011 02:06 Tigi wrote: Wow I really thank you Geiko for this build. Won me every game so far and finally pvp is less coinflip for me, although i don't follow it up with blink if he doesn't 4gate but with chargelot archon. Is this viable(note that im only top8 plat)?
You get a fast gas so any transition is viable in the late game. When designing a build what you should watch out for is if you don't die in between where you are in the early game and where you want to be in the late game. If you want to transition chargelot archon, the question you have to ask yourself is "how do I expand without dying ?"
On July 06 2011 02:27 RobCorso wrote: Thank you, I've been looking for something gateway heavy that I can tech out of. I was so sick of going robo in pvp. I'm not high enough to really talk, but wouldn't a 1 gate 1 sentry 1 zealot 1 stalker push crush this? I finished the post but tldr for comments. I apologize if someone said something similar. Also, you can't really deny any scouting/cannon rush. Is there a way to get a zealot out earlier, or should I just wall with my builder probe? Edit- fail the person above me said something similar in remark to the proxy pylon
I don't undestand any of this. These seem like pretty [L]ow level questions, but I can guarantee you that defending cannon rushes and small 1 gate unit fights is not a problem with this build. If you are having specific problems, feel free to send me replays of you losing (PM) and I'll gladly help you out.
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On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote: since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever.
heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20
we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate
sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um
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On July 06 2011 03:39 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote: [quote]
False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever. heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20 we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um
Lol you seem to be getting even more low level everytime you post. Now you think you can hold 4 warpgate with 4 normal gate and no robo on Tal'Darim ? Can I play you too and get some of that free rich-parent money ?
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