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On March 12 2012 21:51 LightSpectra wrote: The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I played almost no WC3 or SC:BW ladder at all. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
It's not necessarily a result of not understanding the game, although thats definitely part of it. Basic mechanics take a lot of practice and memorization. My friends only want pro games, they don't play at all, and they have watched every season of gsl since open season 3. True, their understanding of the game isn't deep enough in certain aspects, but the big reason they wouldn't be able to just start winning games if they play is not due to their strategic knowledge but because of their lack of practice regarding mechanics.
I really like what someone said earlier in this thread. Starcraft doesn't become a strategy game until you reach a certain level of competency (gold maybe?). Until that point its all memorization and execution.
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On March 12 2012 18:09 Wrathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 17:21 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On March 12 2012 09:33 Gheed wrote: Bullshit. Bronze players don't have "openings." They sit in their base for 20 minutes and then eventually decide to attack.
Oh come off it mate. http://drop.sc/130078 Bronze 1 base banebust, hits around 6-7 minutes http://drop.sc/130077 Bronze 1 base 111, hits around 10 minutes The last thing this thread needs is more blatant generalisations. Even Gheed has admitted that the term "high bronze" has real meaning, since that league has such a big skill range. Obviously someone in bronze is bad at *something*, or they wouldn't be in bronze. Some might even be bad at *everything*. But they're not *all* bad at everything, and there's bound to be some that have macro a few leagues ahead, but keep walking the fruits of their production into siegetank lines. Or losing multitudes of their diligently constructed SCVs to a single reaper or banshee that they only reacted to after 20 seconds. This. Players in silver league are actually very good in EU now. I faced zergs that have around 100 average apm and creep spread most of the map at 15 minute mark while harassing with muta and doing all sorts of awesome macro games and expanding. I've seen bronze players that are better than gold. Maybe just recently players have become so good in the lower leagues since SC2 is losing its popularity? Competition is much better than it was year ago. You probably met someone who was leveling up in Season 5.
Bronze/silver/gold is terrible. I've played them last week learning Zerg and i should know.
Back in Season 1 i was top Diamond, which might appear flashy but it's downright depressing when you get to play against Masters. The same difference in skill i felt back then, i now feel also in lower leagues (not that diamond was high in the first place). And that's struggling with Zerg playstyle; switched to terran 3 times for good old times and rocked them so hard i felt guilt.
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On March 12 2012 21:51 LightSpectra wrote: The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I didn't play any RTS competitively before getting SC2. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
Care to post a replay or two? 40-60 APM seems awfully low to get much done on anything over 1 base. And yes, if you got into Masters with an hour a week of gameplay, you've got some "natural" talent that was either there from the beginning, or that you developed through some other activity when you were younger.
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On March 12 2012 14:43 Kerwin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 10:29 freakhill wrote: So basically Gheed's main contribution is ruining the fun of legitimate players and publicly humiliate them, cherrypicking games with low bronze opponents against which he could only reach a slightly above 50% winrate? And he is being lauded for that? He is actively making people leave the game, and others emulate him. Is this a good thing for esport to make people hate the game? Can't you have respect for fellow players just because they cannot play as well as you do? Is that the SC2 community?
OP was just looking for fellow high bronze players to have fun with. He never asked for advice (in which case this post would have been relocated to SC2 strategy). He never said that he is a good player or that he wanted to reach a higher league. He just wanted to share his experience with other highly active bronze players so that his bronze fellows get to enjoy the game more. Then came the train of ego-strokers... How laughable that you think that Bronze League has anything to do with E-sports. Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:37 freakhill wrote:On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad. Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right. freakhill, when you play a game are you trying to win? I'll assume that you are, indeed, trying to win... So why would you not try to get better at the game? I don't play very much at all, but still platinum as random and I know that I'm shit. If people in bronze league think they are doing fine at any aspect of the game then they are doing themselves a huge disservice. Lying to yourself is the worst kinda of lie. If you have no aspiration at improving at SC2 (which is what the majority of people on TL try to do, and also the reason this thread is met so harshly) then why play? I for one, don't find it fun to lose.
you have it all wrong. noone said he didnt like winning. but this isnt a pug cs server or Modern warfare where if u get better u will do better. in SC ladder it doesn't matter how much he practices, he will lose half his games. period. no offence but i doubt he will be so pro to not be 50% on ladder. so he can still play, have a blast, win half his games, and never attempt to improve. hell he can even get worse at the game, but maintain a 50% w/l. but he dont get pissy from spending all night studing a build and go 1-5 with it on ladder and trash it. like you more than likely have.
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On March 12 2012 21:51 LightSpectra wrote: The day I bought my copy of SC2, I fooled around against the computer for a few hours, then did my placement matches. I just 4gated every game and got into Platinum. Since then, I've foresworn 1base all-ins (except when appropriate in PvP) and got into low Masters by playing on average an hour a week. My APM averages between about 40 and 60, and I didn't play any RTS competitively before getting SC2. You can tell me it's natural talent if you want, but by my own admission, I'm pretty bad at this game.
The simple fact of the matter is that if you're below Platinum league, it's because you fundamentally don't understand the game. It has nothing to do with the skill level of the people you're up against. It has nothing to do with how fast you are. It has nothing to do with the fact that cheese is more common in the lower leagues. If you constantly produce workers until you're saturated on one base and scout properly, you can do a one-base timing push with any race and get into at least Platinum with minimal theorycrafting or micro.
40-60 only? I average around 80 with terran with casual play and 90-100 with zerg that is without spamming. I haven't played much SC2 and I'm in gold. Most of my opponents that are silver or gold have same kind of apm as I do. Less than one action per second sounds very low to me. In Wc3 I averaged around 120-150 apm and went 24/0 in solo when TFT was around.
I just can't believe you are in masters with 40 apm.
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You can be in masters with low apm. You can be a progamer with around 100 (Sjow, GoOdY). Quantity < Quality.
As for the whole being bronze thing, I cannot relate. I've been playing video games since I was 12 (20 now) and I've reached the front page of leader-boards, been to lans and tournaments, fps and rts alike.
The thing that baffles me about all these bronze level players that claim to have an understanding of the game and are still bronze is how they can put so much effort into complaining and whining without putting any effort into their play. Us GM players aren't somehow demi-gods with beastly rts skills... we're people too that are basically the same as you. Well, also the same. Our (at least my) process anyways is far different than yours when it comes to playing Starcraft.
Let me give you an example. When I wanted to switch to Terran from Protoss, I was a little nervous. Having never played Terran, being terrible at Marine micro, and having low-mid GM MMR, I was worried about jumping right in and queuing up as T.
So here is what I did, and everyone can do this to make it to GM, it's not about being smart or having deep insight into your opponents, it's about mechanics. If you have better mechanics than your opponents, you will win more often than not. Hands down.
1 - Learned the hotkeys, I remember most of them from the campaign. Always use hotkeys and control groups. 2 - Picked two players I liked and streamed a lot (I picked vileillusion and forGG). 3 - Copy their builds to the supply. Pick builds that don't rely a lot on metagaming, guessing, or scouting. Just standard builds. For each match-up start with 1 solid build. For this example we'll use ThorzaiN's mass marine opening that was featured on Day9, that's my TvT build. 4 - Play matches. This is the easy part. Imaging the build order as a ladder, you're trying to climb up it as fast as possible. It's been said that this is why Korean pros are just better than foreigners. They have their whole build and game planned out. Up into the hundreds of supply. Just keep playing matches, win/lose/draw jut keep playing and desensitize yourself to results. Disclaimer, you're going to lose a lot. Deal with it. 5 - Refine your build, the SAME build. A standard build like the mass marine combat shield is not going to change a whole lot. I don't even scout with it until I push out at my 4th medivac. I don't get supply blocked, I don't lose a lot of units/works. I don't usually die to cheese. I've played the build dozens and dozens and dozens of times. I have the timings worked out, and most of the time I kill my opponent with the first push. It's not an all-in, it's not a cheese. It's 3 medivacs in the front, 1 in the back, with +1, stim, combat shield, tanks + a third on the way. Why does it work so well? I just have more stuff than the other guy most of the time. I watch the replay and notice how inefficient their build is. I wasn't smarter or more clever/tricky than they were. I just had better mechanics. Mechanics win games. I can't tell you how many times I pause the replay right before the attack and see myself with more marines, better upgrades, more scvs, and faster tech/3rd bases. It's because everything in my build has been done so many times that I've worked out the inefficiencies more than the other guy. 6 - Learn other builds. Once you have 3 standard builds for all the match-ups, then you can branch out and learn the cheeses. What if you play the same guy 2 or 3 times and you want to mix it up?! Don't. If you can't play out your build perfectly more often than not up till 10 - 12 minutes then don't cheese because you're just slowing your progression to having good mechanics.
TL;DR: The bolded parts.
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On March 12 2012 21:30 idonthinksobro wrote: there is lots of stuff that indicates that this is a game on a very low level, bronze or silver or possibly gold(z) vs silver(t) or something.
Sure, absolutely, Low level players, even almost two years into the game's release, don't have solid build orders, don't have good multitasking, have zero knowledge of good timings, have crappy or nonexistent micro, etc. Most of the players at this level probably play a few games a month.
That's a long way from the sitting around doing nothing for minutes at a time or attacking with 10 marines at 20 minutes that Gheed's posts and some people here talk about (and which was a whole lot more common in early season 1.) This is probably the type of difference one sees between low and high bronze.
Incidentally, I have noticed the past couple seasons that in my platinum division (last season) and my gold division (this season) the average activity is way up, which suggests that the less active players are dropping out. Most of the top 50 spots in my division have 30+ games for the season, whereas in the first and second seasons only maybe the top 10 players (by activity) would have 30+ games.
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On March 13 2012 04:37 GlocKomA wrote: You can be in masters with low apm. You can be a progamer with around 100 (Sjow, GoOdY). Quantity < Quality.
Your post has a lot of great suggestions, and makes a lot of sense. However, I think that you greatly underestimate your own talent with respect to picking up mechanics. There's a reason that mechanics alone can get people into master league, being the top few percent -- that reason is that the vast majority of people out there find it exceptionally difficult to execute at that level, even with tons of practice.
Pick builds that don't rely a lot on metagaming, guessing, or scouting. Just standard builds.
I have not yet found the Zerg build that doesn't greatly rely on those things, because with any Zerg build the switch from droning to unit production is 100% scouting dependent, and a wrong move or mistaken understanding of how aggressive the opponent will be seems to yield a loss. As a player bouncing between gold and plat, my mechanics could use some improvement, but I'm certainly able to come within 10% or so of the optimal time to maxed out when I'm in a game by myself -- it's the decision-making and reacting to the other player that kills me.
If you have any thoughts about how to improve on that front, I'd love to hear them. The only really strong timing I'm aware of that seems to be good vs. just about anything at my level is the 7 roach rush, and I'm not sure picking that as my one build to work on really will improve my game that much.
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Experience is really the best. Playing lots of games helps you recognize enemy builds and prepare for them. Ask yourself obvious questions while your'e building. For example why am I building x unit right now instead of y or z. Are you just guessing? If that's the case you should be scouting more. If you're doing things for no reason instead of to prepare yourself against your opponent it's a coin flip and you probably won't come out on top.
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On March 13 2012 06:11 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 04:37 GlocKomA wrote: You can be in masters with low apm. You can be a progamer with around 100 (Sjow, GoOdY). Quantity < Quality.
Your post has a lot of great suggestions, and makes a lot of sense. However, I think that you greatly underestimate your own talent with respect to picking up mechanics. There's a reason that mechanics alone can get people into master league, being the top few percent -- that reason is that the vast majority of people out there find it exceptionally difficult to execute at that level, even with tons of practice. Show nested quote +Pick builds that don't rely a lot on metagaming, guessing, or scouting. Just standard builds. I have not yet found the Zerg build that doesn't greatly rely on those things, because with any Zerg build the switch from droning to unit production is 100% scouting dependent, and a wrong move or mistaken understanding of how aggressive the opponent will be seems to yield a loss. As a player bouncing between gold and plat, my mechanics could use some improvement, but I'm certainly able to come within 10% or so of the optimal time to maxed out when I'm in a game by myself -- it's the decision-making and reacting to the other player that kills me.
Ooops I am obviously talking about P or T.... Zerg is completely different, but easier in my opinion because you're just reacting. I played Zerg for 4 straight seasons and I found that it is less about "learning a build" and more of "see what he is doing... make the counter."
Zerg is just plain different from P or T.
However, it's all about mental reminders, when units come out (4:05 for stalker for example), timings you can die to (5:45-6:00 no expo = 4 WG), and know what he CAN and CANNOT have. It's even more mindless at some level to play Zerg (not in a badway).
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I used to spend a lot of time in that league... I was frustated too.... Then i took a major break and i was back on sc2 , i practice hardcore my mechanics and it seems to pay off!! Im currently in top gold now
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On March 12 2012 15:46 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:45 Hossinaut wrote:On March 12 2012 14:37 freakhill wrote:On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad. Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right. Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is. The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze. EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths. The thing is, unless you're at the top of the ladder (top GM) getting better will NOT lead to you winning more. So trying to improve will not lead to you having more fun. IMO, if you're having fun keep doing what you are doing... It's a game. + Show Spoiler + Obviously, some people find it fun to get better and track their progress. I know I'll probably never hit GM, but I'm still trying to get better because I find progress fun.
You will win more, and then you will start losing a little, but if you continue to improve, there is no reason why you cannot keep winning. I did it from plat to diamond on EU in season 4 i think it was.
On March 12 2012 15:55 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 14:45 Hossinaut wrote:On March 12 2012 14:37 freakhill wrote:On March 12 2012 14:32 Hossinaut wrote: as soon as you get complacent, you stop improving.
you've gotten complacent about your place in Bronze and you no longer desire to be better, so you are staying there.
This is bad. Why is this bad? Most people play video games to have fun. I think OP is totally right. Complacency is always bad, thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is. The issue is that they define fun in a way so that they can mask their complacency, instead of finding fun in improving and finding fun in getting better and finding fun in gaining leagues. Its not possible for a bronze player to be hardcore, if they are staying in Bronze. EDIT: in accordance with the gentleman above me, if you want to have fun in a competitive game, you will seek to win more, and that is by improving, and so by improving and winning more, you will get out of bronze. simple maths. I toward find your attitude about pointless programming very complacent. This is always bad and thats not really something that can be debated, as it sort of is. It's not possible to use a computer without being proficient in pointless programming. I will send you this link so that you can get basic instruction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programmingBut seriously, who are you to define what is fun for other people. Why should we care about your personally approved and certified form of fun? EDIT: Btw the *winning more* part doesn't hold and is addressed by me precedent post and the post just above this one (that you are reading now).
Your point about programming is not related or relevant, so I am disregarding it. I can do basic programming, if you were interested anyway. Who I am to define fun is someone who has seen a lot of people have fun doing it that way, seeing a lot of people feeling more satisfied operating in an intentioned fashion, and seeing many people grow as individuals as a result of altering how they view "fun" so that it is more productive. All of these points are regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, and how I came to my conclusion. I don't approve it necessarily, I just know that it works.
People are a lot less unique than they like to think. Hard work and a positive attitude about learning gets everyone farther-theres a dude training at the IM house that is a quadriplegic. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319796 If you were interested.
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You will win more, and then you will start losing a little, but if you continue to improve, there is no reason why you cannot keep winning. I did it from plat to diamond on EU in season 4 i think it was.
You will lose 50% of your matches once you reach your stable point. The ladder is built in this intent. The only way you have to escape this phenomenon is to become a (very?)high master/GM/Pro (good enough to reach the MMR ceiling) and that is pretty much impossible for the extreme vast majority of SC2 players.
Your point about programming is not related or relevant, so I am disregarding it. I can do basic programming, if you were interested anyway. Who I am to define fun is someone who has seen a lot of people have fun doing it that way, seeing a lot of people feeling more satisfied operating in an intentioned fashion, and seeing many people grow as individuals as a result of altering how they view "fun" so that it is more productive. All of these points are regardless of my personal opinion on the matter, and how I came to my conclusion. I don't approve it necessarily, I just know that it works. People are a lot less unique than they like to think. Hard work and a positive attitude about learning gets everyone farther-theres a dude training at the IM house that is a quadriplegic. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319796 If you were interested.
An accretion of "I just know" and lack of arguments... Moreover I sadly overlooked the fact that many united states people are obsessed with productivity... No point in going on since the path we walk on lead to full frontal cultural clash.
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im a bronze level zerg in SEA. ive played over 500 games as zerg. all in bronze. i hear alot of people say "find one build and refine until perfect" it doesnt work like that. these days i just try and 15 Hatch 14 Gas 14 Gas ??????? Win/Lose I am good with zerg macro: Queens,Upgrades,Teching but i am just at the state that im bronze and will never get out. i play +2 hours a day and nothing gets acheived. i enjoy this game (most the time) and am not going to quit when going through a bad phase HELP
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On March 13 2012 09:06 GlocKomA wrote: However, it's all about mental reminders, when units come out (4:05 for stalker for example), timings you can die to (5:45-6:00 no expo = 4 WG), and know what he CAN and CANNOT have. It's even more mindless at some level to play Zerg (not in a badway).
Yeah, it's mindless once you know all those timings by heart! I have an excellent handle on the key ones that yield an auto-loss (like when a 4-gate can arrive, when I'm likely to see fast cloaked units, when I'll see banelings or roaches or mutas) but many of my losses come from mistaking a build with some econ possibility for an all-in, or vice versa. And, even when I know what's coming (which is a lot of the time these days) I can be pretty bad at reacting properly, but I guess that's back to mechanics or the vague "game sense" depending on the specific nature of the failure.
What's funny is that I absolutely nail those things about half the time, and roll my opponents. The other half, I screw it up and get picked apart. Yes, patching the holes in my mechanics (which can sometimes have very rough spots) and tightening up build orders is pretty much all I'd need to succeed, but the fact is that the last 10% can sometimes take 90% of the effort.
Regardless, when confronted with Diamond+ players who declare how easy it is, I'm mostly struck by how much of their internalized knowledge is unconscious, or taken for granted.
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The reason why bronze-level players are looked down upon is elitism: anyone who is worse that yourself is a scrub whilst anyone better is a no-lifer who plays too much.
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The comments that bronze is better now don't surprise me, however it REALLY does not feel like it from my point of view. I was relatively active in the first 2 seasons, around gold level, and the only thing I knew how to do was macro. Nothing fancy, not much of a build order idea, just make lots of units and expand regularly.
I started playing again a few weeks back, very lightly. By lightly I mean literally 2-3 games per week. My mechanics (awesome as they were) are far worse, and I've switched from Protoss to playing random, just because I felt like discovering the other races as well. This means I know NO build orders, or even how many buildings a certain econ can support, so I wing it 100%! I played 1v1 and 2v2 and CRUSHED gold players. Not even close. I actually kept thinking I was matched up against bronze people seeing how easy it was.
Since I know that people have mediocre macro and are generally scared of expanding I make the most of it. Always be weary of cheese because that doesn't take any skill to pull off, and play safe. I like to keep a unit near the guy's base to see if he expands or if an attack is coming. I'm very bad with map awareness so having the "under attack" ping keeps me awake on that front.
I quite frankly don't understand how someone can stay in bronze indefinitely, when looking at how much I personally know about the game, how I approach it (pure fun and random builds, I don't want to make myself learn anything), and the quality of my mechanics (gah.). The only thing I have on my side is a slightly better understanding of the game than some. Would that really be enough? I doubt it... Then again after reading Gheed's blog on the bronze league, maybe...
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IstgG, I'd like to help but I don't own a SEA account. Please post last 3 reps, win or lose, as long as they are disconnect games. I played zerg through beta, and was fairly active the first few seasons. Not a prodigy, I remember being in copper league when it still existed. Most of sc2 career I've been diamond, recently plat from inactivity, and reclimbing. I'm far from a perfect player and frequently screw up mechanics. Just a normal guy trying to help another guy out.
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i watched my friend play sc2 he doesnt really play games and my god even when im pointing what to do its like a turtle in slow motion. is that what you guys are like?
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A few people I know are still in the bronze league. To their credit, they're still playing and having fun, unlike a lot of inactive higher ranked players I know who obsess over their ranks.
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