[G][D] My ZvT strategy (with hydras) - Page 2
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DBS
515 Posts
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On November 01 2012 20:01 Jermstuddog wrote: Posted my build discussing basically the same things a few months back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351223 In my experience, hydras work just fine in ZvT, but you don't want to spend too much money on them. They allow Zerg to fight for map control just like Terran. They give Zerg options to end games in the 10-15 min window. They work great vs basically anything other than large amounts of Siege Tanks. Hydras are fine in ZvT, but most people aren't interested in hearing that. Just keep it to yourself I'm trying to attract the small ammount of people who are interested in hearing what I have to say so np Your build really differs from mine. I decide to macro instead of being aggressive. My games usually extend to 20-30 min. I also don't like roaches because they actually are worse than lingbaneling in dealing with tanks. speedlings are meant to surround tanks and take the hits while banelings kill marines and hydras deal extra damage to kill tanks/medivacs/banshees faster. | ||
NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
You don't use your hydras as drop defense, you just group them with your lings and run them to the drops/banshees. The exact same thing can be achieved with infestors. The reason why you (have to) do that, is that even though you go for hydras, you actually don't want to build many hydras and therefore can't cover a lot of locations, am I right? And if you leave them somewhere and the Terran drops from a different angle and then stims and runs in you lose all your hydras to a few marines! This is basically the reason why I completly abbandoned that style. It doesn't achieve anything that a few extra queens and some early roaches can do early on and what infestors can do for you, in fact it's just more expensive to do that early on. I guess in the long run it's tomatoe, tomatoe what you choose to do for early defense and hydras are quite nice against the banshee styles - but completly redundant. I think the only time hydras are somewhat good is in conjunction with mass roach attacks (and/or drops) and against Mech. Then they allow for some cool midgame aggression. | ||
padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On November 01 2012 20:01 Jermstuddog wrote: Posted my build discussing basically the same things a few months back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351223 In my experience, hydras work just fine in ZvT, but you don't want to spend too much money on them. They allow Zerg to fight for map control just like Terran. They give Zerg options to end games in the 10-15 min window. They work great vs basically anything other than large amounts of Siege Tanks. Hydras are fine in ZvT, but most people aren't interested in hearing that. Just keep it to yourself Hydras are fine ZvT because of their strong DPS and relatively tankiness against most units the terran has They might be viewed as a glorified stalker, but they take no extra damage from marauders, and deal a lot more DPS. Hydra vs hellion is exactly like a souped up marine vs hellion....small battles, its really nice. Large fights with maxed out upgrades, so-so, but definetely not worth the cost. Hydras are viewed as bad units because they dont fit in the large battles, and only really work in small skirmishes. The problem is, mutas almost cost the exact thing, comes out relatively at the same time, has one of the best mobilities in the game, deals decent damage but also not great for big battles, but at the same time, they dont die to ground aoe damage, making them better in large numbers than hydras can be. They can deal with everything the hydras are needed to deal with albeit for a bit less damage (ignored once you factor in the splash) Both units serve as a "unit to get mid game", and the muta simply offers more for the same cost if you arent looking to directly kill the terran. Im not going to discuss infestors as that unit is blatantly OP in some situations, even if it doesnt offer map control | ||
MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On November 01 2012 21:22 padfoota wrote: Hydras are fine ZvT because of their strong DPS and relatively tankiness against most units the terran has They might be viewed as a glorified stalker, but they take no extra damage from marauders, and deal a lot more DPS. Hydra vs hellion is exactly like a souped up marine vs hellion....small battles, its really nice. Large fights with maxed out upgrades, so-so, but definetely not worth the cost. Hydras are viewed as bad units because they dont fit in the large battles, and only really work in small skirmishes. The problem is, mutas almost cost the exact thing, comes out relatively at the same time, has one of the best mobilities in the game, deals decent damage but also not great for big battles, but at the same time, they dont die to ground aoe damage, making them better in large numbers than hydras can be. They can deal with everything the hydras are needed to deal with albeit for a bit less damage (ignored once you factor in the splash) Both units serve as a "unit to get mid game", and the muta simply offers more for the same cost if you arent looking to directly kill the terran. Im not going to discuss infestors as that unit is blatantly OP in some situations, even if it doesnt offer map control If you think hydras are "tanky", you have clearly never really used them. If they are getting fired on they will go down quickly regardless of the lack of bonus damage. You need other units to tank for them or else they die for next to nothing. | ||
Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
edit: Apologies if you stated that you change unit comps for scouting such things. | ||
MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On November 01 2012 22:16 Swift118 wrote: Ok so agianst 1 rax expo into hellion banshee play I can see hydra's shining. But what about if Terran goes into a more direct Marine/Tank or MMM assault off 2base? Gas will be low for banelings or anything else. So you have lings and hydras to deal with such attacks, I really can not see not see this ending well against someone who is equal on skill level to yourself. edit: Apologies if you stated that you change unit comps for scouting such things. Hydras arent terrible against those attacks(well so long as you are making lots of lings as well). You are defending on creep so they have mobility and the tank counts are usually pretty low. As long as you are spreading creep you should be fine. Hydras kill medivacs as well which helps. | ||
agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On November 01 2012 21:13 Big J wrote: After watching the second replay (the first one that was tagged "to learn from"), I have to say I have played around with this style a lot. So here is what I think about the style and how you play it: You don't use your hydras as drop defense, you just group them with your lings and run them to the drops/banshees. The exact same thing can be achieved with infestors. The reason why you (have to) do that, is that even though you go for hydras, you actually don't want to build many hydras and therefore can't cover a lot of locations, am I right? And if you leave them somewhere and the Terran drops from a different angle and then stims and runs in you lose all your hydras to a few marines! This is basically the reason why I completly abbandoned that style. It doesn't achieve anything that a few extra queens and some early roaches can do early on and what infestors can do for you, in fact it's just more expensive to do that early on. I guess in the long run it's tomatoe, tomatoe what you choose to do for early defense and hydras are quite nice against the banshee styles - but completly redundant. I think the only time hydras are somewhat good is in conjunction with mass roach attacks (and/or drops) and against Mech. Then they allow for some cool midgame aggression. creep/overlord spread gives enough vision to anticipate whatever harrass terran will do. Thats why I don't keep them behind or spread them. And drops from behind the hydras? I have lings and hydras together so the lings can tank for the hydras. Should be np. So basically vision is your best pal. | ||
agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
Also, the reason you don't see me losing in the reps is because its a good strat. I only lose if caught off guard by hellions in the early game b4 hydras are out or some kind of all in. | ||
Stardroid
United Kingdom159 Posts
I am a platinum player but love using hydras in zvt. As the main difference at my level is in macro I've found that hydras end games fast, and I usually mass build them if I see a fast third, instead of going infestors first (which is ofc my usual build). I found however that hydras plus infestors are such a good combination that splitting gas between the two somewhat (some hydras and some less infestors) should reallly make a robust core to zerg's army, and that the hydras OR infestors OR mutas logic doesn't have to apply (in terms of just getting one unit). My control is of course awful so I will be studying your games to learn how to engage properly! I recall playing a game the other day (I don't play much) where a tank/marine/marauder/medivac midgame push just sat a little ways out of my third (on entombed I think), while a marauder (yes, one marauder) walked forward and started killing my lings. Not being anywhere near good at unit control the kiting backwards and forwards with this unit ensured that any zerglings I sent forward got killed by tanks. Not fun, and I really wished I had a couple of Hydras. Ofc I could just get better at dealing with that with my lings, but Hydras just would shut that down permanently so that my peon brain can do more useful things like negotate a surround or remember to inject! Anyway, I suppose a more general thing I could add is that Hydras really do limit the scope of split bio in bio/tank. I've seen really outrageous pro VODS where the Terran is spread across the whole of Zerg's half of the map because Zerg cannot engage any of the small unit pockets without being picked off at range by other Terran units. Seeing that was ridiculous and would not work against Hydras. Of course, you could say that Hydras are dealt with differently but I quite honestly can't see Zerg engaging at all in the VOD situation I saw (I think it was on Cloud Kingdom, which Terrans use well). Anyway, thanks for the high level games I will pour over them! Best Stardroid Space | ||
agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On November 09 2012 21:54 Stardroid wrote: Hi agahamsorr0w, I am a platinum player but love using hydras in zvt. As the main difference at my level is in macro I've found that hydras end games fast, and I usually mass build them if I see a fast third, instead of going infestors first (which is ofc my usual build). I found however that hydras plus infestors are such a good combination that splitting gas between the two somewhat (some hydras and some less infestors) should reallly make a robust core to zerg's army, and that the hydras OR infestors OR mutas logic doesn't have to apply (in terms of just getting one unit). My control is of course awful so I will be studying your games to learn how to engage properly! I recall playing a game the other day (I don't play much) where a tank/marine/marauder/medivac midgame push just sat a little ways out of my third (on entombed I think), while a marauder (yes, one marauder) walked forward and started killing my lings. Not being anywhere near good at unit control the kiting backwards and forwards with this unit ensured that any zerglings I sent forward got killed by tanks. Not fun, and I really wished I had a couple of Hydras. Ofc I could just get better at dealing with that with my lings, but Hydras just would shut that down permanently so that my peon brain can do more useful things like negotate a surround or remember to inject! Anyway, I suppose a more general thing I could add is that Hydras really do limit the scope of split bio in bio/tank. I've seen really outrageous pro VODS where the Terran is spread across the whole of Zerg's half of the map because Zerg cannot engage any of the small unit pockets without being picked off at range by other Terran units. Seeing that was ridiculous and would not work against Hydras. Of course, you could say that Hydras are dealt with differently but I quite honestly can't see Zerg engaging at all in the VOD situation I saw (I think it was on Cloud Kingdom, which Terrans use well). Anyway, thanks for the high level games I will pour over them! Best Stardroid Space Hey, Stardroid, this is exactly the kind of comments I was aiming for! Thank you for taking the time to write. Yeah, I think you got it right about the gas split between hydra and infestor. It's a good combination if done correctly. The combination with ling and baneling is really powerful because of all the damage you do in a small ammount of time. Terran needs to siege before getting on creep instead of moving a bit forward and sieging then. And spreading units out is also not an option since hydras can kite them while (some) lings take the fire. If you want, you could send me replays so I can help you out with decisions like attacking etc. But ofcourse if you don't want to that's also fine (pm me for my mail) aGaham | ||
reikai
United States359 Posts
Versus marine tank? Really? I don't understand :/ maybe you mean small skirmishes? | ||
agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On November 10 2012 03:03 reikai wrote: ” I likecost efficiency,hence thehydras.” Versus marine tank? Really? I don't understand :/ maybe you mean small skirmishes? No, baneling infestor demolishes marines and hydras and lings demolish tanks. small skirmishes can be handled with ease by hydra ling only. Once the big fights come though, you need to have banelings to be cost effective. | ||
Maggost
Venezuela296 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2778 Posts
It's not the current meta that stifles innovation...it's the players. How many people just rated hydras as instantly bad without even trying them? Ya I'm sure people have experimented with them blahblahblahblahblah. That's just silly...19 people said they didn't even want to watch the replays? Bah. In my experience they feel strongest as a responsive unit, but there is definitely a window where they can be used aggressively. Obviously they aren't good against huge amounts of siege tanks...but the current meta is BL infestor >< and he's suggesting using them as a stepping stone. | ||
agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
A friend gave me the idea so all credits go to him for the creative name :D | ||
Defenestrator
400 Posts
On November 10 2012 05:34 Qwyn wrote: It's not the current meta that stifles innovation...it's the players. How many people just rated hydras as instantly bad without even trying them? Yeah this is always frustrating; also if you introduce a new unit into your build, it has to be done WELL and PROPERLY, which is something that tends to be lacking, especially in the case of hydras. My experience with hydra is that if you have too many or they don't have support, they're pretty much the worst unit in the game. However, if they have some units tanking for them and are allowed to go to work unhindered, their DPS is amazing. Hydras even in really small numbers, like 3-4, can still add enough DPS to swing battles (or at least not seem like a waste of money) in my experience. Hydras in larger numbers, like 12+, once their support evaporates seem like the greatest waste of money ever. | ||
SayNoToStim
United States6 Posts
Yeah, they're going to work in certain situations, but generally those situations are going to be won with just about any unit. They're just too slow and fragile to work into most zerg strats. I'm still of the opinion that the only times you should be making them are in zvz and when you need anti-air 30 seconds ago. | ||
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