Tried to do the build in-game and it just has too much gas, cant afford the second OC for a while (had to cut Marines). So Barracks before Gas man. By "Anti-Metagame", do you mean pre-Colossus timing? Marauders are okay but Marines are really what does the damage.
Whole reason for double Reactors after Factory is to trade armies before Colossus come out as well. Don't see how delaying the Starport helps this timing, and why Combat Shields if you want a big Marauder force, from the early double Gas I'm guessing.
I'd just go with mass Marine timing before Colossus and add two Rax for three Rax Marauders (two Reactors) as standard, may be try describing why your attacking at 7:30.
And Marauders aren't strong against Colossus or anything, they just tank hits for the Marines on 3 Rax builds.
On January 04 2013 20:51 samuelspark wrote: Thanks for feedback.
Your medivac push isn't actually delayed because if you start your factory at 7 minutes, it takes 152 + a couple more seconds to get 2 medivacs out. And Stim only takes 170 seconds (approximately the same time), so it sounds perfectly possible to have the standard timing. Except you'd be behind in upgrades. But I see all your points. I'll be making adjustments soon.
It doesnt seem solid enough (see previous posts) and the +1 attack is actually a very key part of medivac timing and transitioning into midgame because of how crucial it is for marines.
They do 6 damage, almost all toss units have 1 base armor (so 5), guardian shield lowers that to 3.
If toss gets 1 upgrade ahead he cuts the marines damage by 33%, 2 upgrades ahead (2 armor before 1 attack is finished) he cuts marine damage from 6 to 1 under guardian shield and the game is essentially over.
That is a little bit of an extreme example, but the early ebay, +1 attack and then second ebay and armory ready to immediately start 2-2 after 1-1 is done is key to an extent that the majority of players dont even begin to realize. "Behind on upgrades" in modern TvP/TvZ is an extremely scary thing.
the only time having marauders pre medivacs is useful is when protoss actually comes out to push you. yes you can take mapcontrol with a couple of marauders but that doesnt really get you anywhere because you will not be able to attack into the protoss (at his natural) due to forcefields. that said, having a bunch of mm hanging outside of tosses natural does force him to make units and equilizes your early investment if he overreacts. yet i still dont think the rewards justifies the risk you take ( getting forcefielded off loosing half your army).
One problem is that, it gives up a normal strength of mid game bio, which is the ability to easily retreat. TVP very quickly becomes a war of attrition, in which players try to maximize their retention of army units by dodging storms, splitting well, placing good ffs, etc. In the first few minutes of the game, toss units can shake down marines with their speed (stalker) and high hit points, then tables turn when mauraders comes out, and concussive shells majorly influence the game, but around a minute or two later, the amount of sentry energy your opponent has (I.E. right before your timing comes) allows the toss to choose whether or not he wants to engage, by making a wall.
The next switch, comes when stim pack readies, and terran is able to engage smartly, and retreat away if the situation calls for it, dodging ffs, etc.
TVP is very much so controlled by the tempo of not just macro, but tech. As each new tech comes out, the other side gains more map control, and the ability to retreat, while the opponent sometimes loses it. In my opinion, mauraders without stim only gain you that retreat priviledge for a short period of time, because usually toss has a comparable sized army, but eventually has 4+ force fields (I.E. enough to control 1 battle, stop one retreat, or gain one for themselves). Since you are attacking the opponent at his base, and not in the open, the effectiveness of ff's goes up dramatically, and you have no stim to attempt to run away if he has sufficient immortals.
The second reason this push is ill advised, is that it comes basically right when toss is making their tech choice, and right after the Observer gets a eye full. This means the toss will be able to prepare perfectly (in choices, not necessarily time wise).
I open up MKP style 3 rax double reactor, and I like to poke when stim finishes, i scan when im at the ramp and i only engage if protoss is skimping. I also use it to deny a fast third nexus, but otherwise, as others have said, the real power comes with the first 2 medivacs. And in all honesty i'm not a fan of super early marauders because you need to get a faster third gas, whereas with a more marine-heavy style i can support an engi bay and 2 medivacs + all bio ups on just the 2 refineries until 10ish minutes.
reactor, techlab, concussive shells. Move out with 1 marauder, 4 marines.
Or you can wait for a few rounds and you'll basically have what you just described. Any safe opener with immortal or good forcefields will shut it down - again why the medivacs are a necessity.
On January 07 2013 20:15 HEYALEX wrote: 11gas 13rax 16rax
reactor, techlab, concussive shells. Move out with 1 marauder, 4 marines.
Or you can wait for a few rounds and you'll basically have what you just described. Any safe opener with immortal or good forcefields will shut it down - again why the medivacs are a necessity.
On January 07 2013 20:15 HEYALEX wrote: 11gas 13rax 16rax
reactor, techlab, concussive shells. Move out with 1 marauder, 4 marines.
Or you can wait for a few rounds and you'll basically have what you just described. Any safe opener with immortal or good forcefields will shut it down - again why the medivacs are a necessity.
At a low masters level I have a lot of success with 2Rax Reactor First, just exploiting the fact that Protoss players at this level don't have to micro like me during the game anyways, so they're not as good at fighting it off.
If you deny scouting it's an incredibly powerful push nowadays because nobody in their right mind should be doing it. If a Protoss player scouts Rax-Gas he usually assumes 1-1-1, and if I can deny scouting with the first marine (common on 4 player maps) I get to scoot down to their base and kill a fuckton of probes.
You can also do a 3 Barracks (1 TL two naked) timing before CC using the excess gas for reactor to do the same level of damage, but it's not as efficient due to the timings.
Expanding before Barracks pressure without teching is just asking to get smacked down unless you do a solid 5 Rax with addons and, again, deny scouting. Very hard to catch all observers and probes, though.
Not sure if this build can work at all against anyone decent, but if I were to do a build like this I think Concussive Shells expo would work better than 1raxFE for easier transition. It opens both marauders and concussive shells and you don't have to completely overkill with gas like your build does now.
Push wont work. dispite it being 3 minutes earlier than the medivac timing, you have no stim, no hp regen and no high ground vision without burning scans. i would imagine that even a phoenix opening would shut this down. its a nice idea in principle to stop the protoss from teching too quickly and getting up unit producing infrastructure, but there's no a lot you'll be able to do with it. I guess the only chance you'd have of it working is the protoss trying to play really greedy and taking a fast 3rd base upon seeing your fast expand.
The problem you're always going to encounter with this type of thinking is that you're trying to take advantage of the protoss fast expanding and teching with an early pressure build where you're investing a lot of your early game resources into the push. the reason the +1 marine medivac timing is used is because the infrastructure you're getting sets YOU up well for the midgame, staying on barracks tech may force some additional units out from the protoss, but he's going to have his robo, and probably his robo bay starting. leaving you with no way to deal with his colossi.
If you want to exploit and early timing like this (that im not even sure exists) then i would just try and make it an all in and proxy raxes, otherwise i see no way for this to work.
On January 07 2013 23:44 CapnAmerica wrote: At a low masters level I have a lot of success with 2Rax Reactor First, just exploiting the fact that Protoss players at this level don't have to micro like me during the game anyways, so they're not as good at fighting it off.
If you deny scouting it's an incredibly powerful push nowadays because nobody in their right mind should be doing it. If a Protoss player scouts Rax-Gas he usually assumes 1-1-1, and if I can deny scouting with the first marine (common on 4 player maps) I get to scoot down to their base and kill a fuckton of probes.
You can also do a 3 Barracks (1 TL two naked) timing before CC using the excess gas for reactor to do the same level of damage, but it's not as efficient due to the timings.
Expanding before Barracks pressure without teching is just asking to get smacked down unless you do a solid 5 Rax with addons and, again, deny scouting. Very hard to catch all observers and probes, though.
If he scouts gas and a rax, he should always have zealot + 2 stalkers before expand. He'll follow up with 2 more gates, 2nd gas, then more units. The reason the push died out was because its not that hard to hold is that as long as you're smart its really not that hard to hold. But i guess if people are just blindly following build orders then it'll probably work. o.O
Polt has been doing similar things with maurader expand builds. You get a 13 gas, tech lab, shells, a few mauraders and expand about 45 seconds later than normal. You add on more rax and push at about 7:00 minutes with a force very similar to a standard two rax. A protoss that goes three gate robo often forgoes several warp in cycles in order to rush collosus, the gateways are for insurance. With a few chrono boosts and some nice forecefields toss can definitely hold any oddly timed pressure. They are all strong builds though and very powerful ways to play, and with good micro you can force nice trades. I think if you can manage a 7 minute timing and still get out medivacs by 10 minutes, it might be ok to go double engineering bay and a third base there after without being to far behind on upgrades or economy. I wouldn't be to discouraged from playing with it because harrassing protoss early is just a really powerful way to play TvP.
Something that would give me some pause though, it might be rather difficult to hold some immortal pushes and 7 gate all ins if you are delaying your rax and going lighter on the marines. Depending on your follow up, fast collossus pushes or two base colossus all ins might be tricky to hold, because you will pay a price in the mid game two afford to be so aggressive in the early game. Every build has counter though, it shouldn't discourage you from playing around with it. Let use know if you come up with anything really cool.
EDIT: Something I want to point out to some of the people with the harsher criticisms, this isn't an all in he is talking about. Its ok to kills a couple zealots and go home. If you can manage even than, burn some force feilds, and force chronos on the gateways, its a worthwhile push. If protoss prepares perfectly, ideally you just go home.
On January 08 2013 16:04 mothergoose729 wrote:EDIT: Something I want to point out to some of the people with the harsher criticisms, this isn't an all in he is talking about. Its ok to kills a couple zealots and go home. If you can manage even than, burn some force feilds, and force chronos on the gateways, its a worthwhile push. If protoss prepares perfectly, ideally you just go home.
I would gladly pay 3 zealots and a couple force fields to delay the medivac timing as much as this terran build does.
I am borrowed your idea some and tweaked it. Working on it a little now but I would like to share it. Managed to get out 4 mauraders by 7ish minutes, if you pull scvs its still a nice push, and you end up at 10 minutes with 2 medivacs, stem, and two barracks with reactors and 1 with tech lab just like with a standard 1 rax expand build.
BO 10 depot 12 barracks 16 cc 16 refinery 18 depot 18 bunker 19 2nd rax first 25 gas tech lab constant maurader production when second rax finishes start reactor get second refinery start concussive shells 32 supply depot add a third rax when you can afford it start stem factory engineering bay and third gas push with 4 mauraders, pull 4 or so scvs when factory finishes start reactor and starport start reactor on third rax when finished constant marine production until 10 minute push. +1 won't be done in time nor combat sheilds, but you seem to have more units than normal. I had enough money to immediately throw down my third command center.
Could use some tweaking, but I think it might be a good start.
Im not sure how well this would work, but a couple things that I see as problems (dia protoss here) are:
1) I don't see the point of having a marauder centered push, people have said that a fast robo can easily get an immortal, but marauders are not cost efficient against zealots either without kiting, and a fast Templar build like kcdc's only gets one initial stalker then goes with 3 sentries and pure zealot. All a turtling protoss has to do is ff behind the marauders when they get up the ramp, and kill your push. Now your medivac push is weaker because you lost those initial units cost inefficiently.
2) The resources early on from a one rax fe are actually pretty tight that early on, I'm not sure you can actually maintain constant marauder and scv production without delaying tech.
3) Upgrades are delayed since you don't get the engineering bay with the factory.
I've played against one mid masters Terran who did something slightly similar, but he just had a very marine centered army, and I was to kill it so easily with zealot sentry that he actually completely stopped doing that poke in consequent games because it wasn't worth it to lose those initial units and only kill a few zealots, and if you're extremely lucky, a sentry.
On January 08 2013 16:04 mothergoose729 wrote: Polt has been doing similar things with maurader expand builds. You get a 13 gas, tech lab, shells, a few mauraders and expand about 45 seconds later than normal. You add on more rax and push at about 7:00 minutes with a force very similar to a standard two rax. A protoss that goes three gate robo often forgoes several warp in cycles in order to rush collosus, the gateways are for insurance. With a few chrono boosts and some nice forecefields toss can definitely hold any oddly timed pressure. They are all strong builds though and very powerful ways to play, and with good micro you can force nice trades. I think if you can manage a 7 minute timing and still get out medivacs by 10 minutes, it might be ok to go double engineering bay and a third base there after without being to far behind on upgrades or economy. I wouldn't be to discouraged from playing with it because harrassing protoss early is just a really powerful way to play TvP.
Something that would give me some pause though, it might be rather difficult to hold some immortal pushes and 7 gate all ins if you are delaying your rax and going lighter on the marines. Depending on your follow up, fast collossus pushes or two base colossus all ins might be tricky to hold, because you will pay a price in the mid game two afford to be so aggressive in the early game. Every build has counter though, it shouldn't discourage you from playing around with it. Let use know if you come up with anything really cool.
EDIT: Something I want to point out to some of the people with the harsher criticisms, this isn't an all in he is talking about. Its ok to kills a couple zealots and go home. If you can manage even than, burn some force feilds, and force chronos on the gateways, its a worthwhile push. If protoss prepares perfectly, ideally you just go home.
What Polt does is really different in that it is basically a macro oriented 2 rax that actually pays off the most when protons is overly defensive. This push is different in that we try to very macro oriented play while applying pressure with much fewer units, in this case, yes, it's completely fine for you to just as go home. But what if you waltz up the ramp, and bam, force fields and zealots. Suddenly your pressuring units die, and you're much weaker. This also opens up windows for blink play and gateway allies to do a lot more damage since you don't get stim early on and your pressure is very light so you don't actually have a big scary army at all.
haha to all the haters, Fantasy basically does this build to great effect vs Dear in proleague, and Boxer (no surprise) has been doing a variation of this as well in the early days.