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On May 01 2013 03:28 decafchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:20 karpotoss wrote: When will we legalize incest marriage in Western countries? Brother and sister getting married makes more sense than gay marriage, because at least they can have their own babies. If they are both adults, with the ability to consent then why not? Reduced fertility both in litter size and sperm viability Increased genetic disorders Fluctuating facial asymmetry Lower birth rate Higher infant mortality Slower growth rate Smaller adult size Loss of immune system function -wiki
You forgot:
Awkward family reunions.
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glad to see things like this are moving forward, hell, its about time
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Is it impossible he did it to gain publicity? After saying you are gay even the first lady congratulates you.
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On May 01 2013 03:27 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:20 karpotoss wrote: When will we legalize incest marriage in Western countries? Brother and sister getting married makes more sense than gay marriage, because at least they can have their own babies. If they are both adults, with the ability to consent then why not? As far as I'm concerned encouraging incest procreation is like encouraging child abuse. What the fuck does this have to do with gay marriage? What if they only engage in oral and anal intercourse. Then should they be allowed to get married?
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On May 01 2013 03:36 Fruscainte wrote: I feel like this entire thing is detrimental. I don't know why someone coming out has to be a deal. The best thing that could happen for the LGBT movement is for it to stop being such a hyped up freaking thing. Someone should be able to come out without hours and hours of news coverage and their face plastered everywhere. If anything this is going to stop any other players from coming out because they fear their face being plastered across ESPN and being labelled as an activist and shit. I'm sure the thing these guys and girls want most is for them to be able to be thought of as anyone else, that it's not a big deal if they're gay or not and for the world to fucking move on.
Seems unlikely. I think most gay players didn't come out because they feared it might hurt their career, damage their relationship with their teammates or coach, or lead to abuse by fans.
I doubt any of them was thinking: "Hey, if only I didn't have to deal with annoying activist media praising me, I would have come out already."
I mean, maybe some would be annoyed by the publicity, but that's a very minor issue compared to everything else. Knowing that they can at least expect support from their team if some people decide to be a dick about it is huge.
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I thought this was going to be a story about 40 years ago. 2013, wow.
Good for him. Also FLOTUS sounds like an immune disorder.
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On May 01 2013 02:07 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 01:54 Acertos wrote:Just because someone doesn't agree with same sex marriage doesn't mean they are anti gay... If you don't agree with same sex marriage yes you are anti-gay in a way. You tolerate them doing their things but you don't want them to marry. You don't want them to do something others do because they are gay, so it's anti-gay. It's pretty simple but alot of people deny that. It's not that simple. I'm strictly against gay people getting married, because marriage has been formed to be a religious act in the first place and today still a huge part of it is religion (although the state has taken over the paper stuff). And if that religion mostly agrees on being against gay people, so be it, let them be. I'm all for allowing gay people to have a commitment that has the same rights as marriage, just gets called different to not step on the toes of christians. Because I believe in tolerating others and their beliefs as long as it does not hurt anyone. So even though I would vote anywhere I can against same sex marriage, I'm not anti-gay in any way. It's not as simple as you put it.
Actually it is pretty simple.
Most reasonable people are okay that gay do not have access to a RELIGIOUS marriage. Going to the church, getting married by a priest etc. Church is a personal business and if in their rules its only a woman and a man, then so be it.
However if you're against civil marriage for gays, the kind of marriage that gives you special rights (in regards to the law, taxes etc) then I'm sorry but you are anti-gay. Sure not totaly, but still, as soon as you decided gay people do not have the same legal rights as a straight person you are by definition not for equality (of rights).
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On May 01 2013 03:54 meadbert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 03:27 kmillz wrote:On May 01 2013 03:20 karpotoss wrote: When will we legalize incest marriage in Western countries? Brother and sister getting married makes more sense than gay marriage, because at least they can have their own babies. If they are both adults, with the ability to consent then why not? As far as I'm concerned encouraging incest procreation is like encouraging child abuse. What the fuck does this have to do with gay marriage? What if they only engage in oral and anal intercourse. Then should they be allowed to get married?
Sure, why not?
edit: There are other ways to avoid making babies too, but I guess that's one solution
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Oh cool, I totally needed another reason to strongly dislike Chris Broussard. Good on Jason Collins. It's an absolute shame gay marriage is still illegal in many places in this country
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On April 30 2013 11:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 11:47 DannyJ wrote: Too bad he's essentially an absolute nobody. Yes making it in the NBA isn't like a challenge or anything. Don't worry about the armchair athletes who seemingly forget about how difficult it is for anyone to make a professional league : P you just have to be in the top like 0.01% of all active players.
On May 01 2013 03:20 karpotoss wrote: When will we legalize incest marriage in Western countries? Brother and sister getting married makes more sense than gay marriage, because at least they can have their own babies. If they are both adults, with the ability to consent then why not?
Might be one of the dumber posts I've ever read on TL... I don't think, however, it's to far up the list like the guy who asked how to download RAM way back.
I fail to see how incest and homosexuality are similar in any regard but I'm sure you'll inform me. We can have philosophical debates on incest as we can on marriage but as far as comparing them? You're in apples and oranges here.
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On May 01 2013 03:20 karpotoss wrote: When will we legalize incest marriage in Western countries? Brother and sister getting married makes more sense than gay marriage, because at least they can have their own babies. If they are both adults, with the ability to consent then why not?
I'm confused. Are you oblivious to the more serious ramifications of an incestuous relationship bearing children which isn't remotely comparable to a homosexual relationship, or are you that shallow to imply a homosexual relationship does have comparable ramifications?
Regardless, they're two fairly separate issues that can't be compared and have to be addressed individually.
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Earlier this year as well, Barack Obama became the first US President to support Marriage Equality. Well, first US President to be for both gay and straight marriage after having been against gay marriage. He evolved in this view as the political winds of change blew.
I'll be glad when all these shouts of "Brave" and "Courageous" die down in the media. I mean, how hard can it be when the President gives you a phone call just afterwards congratulating you. The opposition to the lifestyle has long since fallen out of favor in media (Lèse-majesté to say some person can't be gay, no matter what divisions on gay marriage sanctioning there exist) and there have been others in the pro sports world that announce after retirement. A step forward for the gay rights movement, a firm step, but can we save courageous for somebody doing the same in Iran (Imprisonment, Corporal Punishment, Execution) so as to leave the word with just a little meaning?
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On May 01 2013 04:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +Earlier this year as well, Barack Obama became the first US President to support Marriage Equality. Well, first US President to be for both gay and straight marriage after having been against gay marriage. He evolved in this view as the political winds of change blew. I'll be glad when all these shouts of "Brave" and "Courageous" die down in the media. I mean, how hard can it be when the President gives you a phone call just afterwards congratulating you. The opposition to the lifestyle has long since fallen out of favor in media (Lèse-majesté to say some person can't be gay, no matter what divisions on gay marriage sanctioning there exist) and there have been others in the pro sports world that announce after retirement. A step forward for the gay rights movement, a firm step, but can we save courageous for somebody doing the same in Iran (Imprisonment, Corporal Punishment, Execution) so as to leave the word with just a little meaning? We had a vote in North Carolina last year about this time about whether to amend the state constitution to ban gay marriage. I was REALLY hoping the President Obama would campaign against the measure because I think he would have swayed a lot of people. Unfortunately he waited until after the measure passed to support gay marriage so we are stuck with this unfortunate constitutional amendment.
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Haha Kobe is such a pro-tweeter.
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I didn't care who he had sex with before, and I especially don't care now. I'm so tired of people thinking who someone has sex with is important. I'm sure he is going to write a book, have a tv show, and be quoted after his career as "Having sex with more than 10,000 men"... Who cares?
Not only that, saying he is the first active gay US athlete is insulting, there have been lots before him... Martina Navratilova, Greg Louganis or Sheryl Swoopes.
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On May 01 2013 00:09 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 22:33 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 11:56 Sermokala wrote: I was quite disipointed by this. Jackie Robinson (first black athlete in US sports with white people) was a superstar in the prime of his career when he strove forward race relations in this nation. He was spat on and insulted by every other team and the fans across the nation.
This guy is going to cash in greatly, never have to play another game again in his life, received a phone call from the president, and will be able to push out of the business anyone who says an odd word to him now, all from day 1 of coming out at the end of anything public that he had to do in his life.
But of course they're the same thing for civil rights in america.
Edit: I'm not trying to take anything away from the guy, he obviously made the best decision he could ever have made. Being in the NBA for that long takes a ton of talent, work ethic, and skill. I just don't see the real difference between him and the other retired openly gay professional athletes that have come out over the years when their career was over. The guy simply isn't an active Athlete in a major american sport. First, this is like saying you're disappointed because "Rosa Parks was just a nobody. Who cares how she was treated on a bus?" I think it's actually more critical that Collins is a non-superstar athlete because it'll show more about people's character in how they treat him. If he were a superstar, people acquiesce to him no matter what, even hiding their homophobia. Because he's not a great player nor is he essential, people's true feelings are more likely to be revealed. I've heard people talk about him "cashing in" on a book deal or something. He's made $30+ million playing basketball and he'll make 1.35m if he gets another year. He may be doing it for publicity, but I don't think money is his motivation. The difference is that he's not retired. His career might be dwindling, but he has the chance to play for another year or two and make millions more dollars. It's less of a risk than someone in their prime coming out, but that's exactly why they don't. To date, I think this is the biggest risk a gay athlete has ever taken in coming out publicly. It might not be big enough for your liking, but your liking kind of sucks. Are you high? "peoples true feelings might be revealed"? Anyone that talks anything bad about this guy is going to be instantly hounded by everyone. This isn't some rosa parks "gee I might die from sitting in the front of the bus" this is some guy whos at the end of his career coming out because hes got nothing to lose and a ton to gain from it. Nike has said they have a large deal waiting for the first guy coming out and his net worth just exploded if he can brand him self as the "first openly gay active athlete in US major mens sports history. Even if he isn't that thing hes still going to be wildly celebrated for some reason. There is literally no risk to this guy coming out and you are completely mad if you think there is. No reason to insult me because I'm not on the same bandwagon of hope you do.
for someone who posts in a whole lot of sport threads, you're breathtakingly stupid and naive about the culture that surrounds sports.
He's not talking about morons like Chris Broussard, who got rightly fucking trashed for the idiotic comments he said.
He is talking about how a marginal player with controversial baggage like being gay can be seen as not being worth the trouble to keep on the roster. Kinda like how this dude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Burke) mentioned on page one got shafted. Like how teams are now avoiding having Tebow even as the 3rd qb because of the shit that comes with him. Players who have a ton skill but quesitonable baggage or past get a pass so long as they are good. See: Vick, Pacman Jones, Leonard Little, etc etc etc.
There is way more risk for a marginal player making close to the league minimum at the end of his career than there is if someone like Lebron came out tomorrow. Way, way more. Teams can find someone to eat up 5-10 minutes a night who fans won't be screaming faggot at from the stands. This might come as a surprise since I don't believe you thought for more than two seconds when you posted, but post-retirement, athletes tend to have a bit of trouble with finding jobs and their finances, so yeah, being able to work an extra couple of years might just be nice.
The culture of sports is not inclusive for gays in any way. You can see it by the openly bigoted morons in this thread. You can see it by wonderful people such as yourself, who are fucking dismissing a thing that is going to be inspirational to tons of closeted people because you don't think it is serious enough because, thankfully, this fucking country has at least come far enough along that tweeting out bigoted shit has replaced lynchings as the preferred way to bring harm to a group of people you don't like.
There are thousands of players in the four major spots in the US, and outside of this, not one has come out while active.
At any point, while that shit was spewing forth from your brain to your fingers, did you stop and think why that is?
PLayers, who spend a majority of their careers on the road and only in the company of their teammates, actively lie about who they are, they likes, their spouse and all sorts of other shit because of the horrible culture that is pervasive in sports.
as for the cashing in, if a little financial incentive is necessary to break down the shitty fucking attitudes that surround this, then so fucking be it. It's not as if an athlete, gay or not, is going to be very marketable after he retires in a few years like this guy will. And even if it was, who fucking cares. I'd much rather live in a world where a dude takes a few bucks to enact change rather than one where he and so many others have to live secret lives so they don't hear shit from idiots
Jesus. If you're going to be a bigot, at least have the decency not to be goddamned stupid on top of it.
also, since it bears saying, if you are voting anything but yes for allowing gay marriage, you are anti gay and a bigot.
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Thanks for that QuanticHawk, I think a lot of people downplay just how homophobic the culture surrounding the big 4 is and has been.
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On May 01 2013 04:20 QuanticHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 00:09 Sermokala wrote:On April 30 2013 22:33 Jibba wrote:On April 30 2013 11:56 Sermokala wrote: I was quite disipointed by this. Jackie Robinson (first black athlete in US sports with white people) was a superstar in the prime of his career when he strove forward race relations in this nation. He was spat on and insulted by every other team and the fans across the nation.
This guy is going to cash in greatly, never have to play another game again in his life, received a phone call from the president, and will be able to push out of the business anyone who says an odd word to him now, all from day 1 of coming out at the end of anything public that he had to do in his life.
But of course they're the same thing for civil rights in america.
Edit: I'm not trying to take anything away from the guy, he obviously made the best decision he could ever have made. Being in the NBA for that long takes a ton of talent, work ethic, and skill. I just don't see the real difference between him and the other retired openly gay professional athletes that have come out over the years when their career was over. The guy simply isn't an active Athlete in a major american sport. First, this is like saying you're disappointed because "Rosa Parks was just a nobody. Who cares how she was treated on a bus?" I think it's actually more critical that Collins is a non-superstar athlete because it'll show more about people's character in how they treat him. If he were a superstar, people acquiesce to him no matter what, even hiding their homophobia. Because he's not a great player nor is he essential, people's true feelings are more likely to be revealed. I've heard people talk about him "cashing in" on a book deal or something. He's made $30+ million playing basketball and he'll make 1.35m if he gets another year. He may be doing it for publicity, but I don't think money is his motivation. The difference is that he's not retired. His career might be dwindling, but he has the chance to play for another year or two and make millions more dollars. It's less of a risk than someone in their prime coming out, but that's exactly why they don't. To date, I think this is the biggest risk a gay athlete has ever taken in coming out publicly. It might not be big enough for your liking, but your liking kind of sucks. Are you high? "peoples true feelings might be revealed"? Anyone that talks anything bad about this guy is going to be instantly hounded by everyone. This isn't some rosa parks "gee I might die from sitting in the front of the bus" this is some guy whos at the end of his career coming out because hes got nothing to lose and a ton to gain from it. Nike has said they have a large deal waiting for the first guy coming out and his net worth just exploded if he can brand him self as the "first openly gay active athlete in US major mens sports history. Even if he isn't that thing hes still going to be wildly celebrated for some reason. There is literally no risk to this guy coming out and you are completely mad if you think there is. No reason to insult me because I'm not on the same bandwagon of hope you do. for someone who posts in a whole lot of sport threads, you're breathtakingly stupid and naive about the culture that surrounds sports. He's not talking about morons like Chris Broussard, who got rightly fucking trashed for the idiotic comments he said. He is talking about how a marginal player with controversial baggage like being gay can be seen as not being worth the trouble to keep on the roster. Kinda like how this dude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Burke) mentioned on page one got shafted. Like how teams are now avoiding having Tebow even as the 3rd qb because of the shit that comes with him. Players who have a ton skill but quesitonable baggage or past get a pass so long as they are good. See: Vick, Pacman Jones, Leonard Little, etc etc etc. There is way more risk for a marginal player making close to the league minimum at the end of his career than there is if someone like Lebron came out tomorrow. Way, way more. Teams can find someone to eat up 5-10 minutes a night who fans won't be screaming faggot at from the stands. This might come as a surprise since I don't believe you thought for more than two seconds when you posted, but post-retirement, athletes tend to have a bit of trouble with finding jobs and their finances, so yeah, being able to work an extra couple of years might just be nice. The culture of sports is not inclusive for gays in any way. You can see it by the openly bigoted morons in this thread. You can see it by wonderful people such as yourself, who are fucking dismissing a thing that is going to be inspirational to tons of closeted people because you don't think it is serious enough because, thankfully, this fucking country has at least come far enough along that tweeting out bigoted shit has replaced lynchings as the preferred way to bring harm to a group of people you don't like. There are thousands of players in the four major spots in the US, and outside of this, not one has come out while active. At any point, while that shit was spewing forth from your brain to your fingers, did you stop and think why that is? PLayers, who spend a majority of their careers on the road and only in the company of their teammates, actively lie about who they are, they likes, their spouse and all sorts of other shit because of the horrible culture that is pervasive in sports. as for the cashing in, if a little financial incentive is necessary to break down the shitty fucking attitudes that surround this, then so fucking be it. It's not as if an athlete, gay or not, is going to be very marketable after he retires in a few years like this guy will. And even if it was, who fucking cares. I'd much rather live in a world where a dude takes a few bucks to enact change rather than one where he and so many others have to live secret lives so they don't hear shit from idiots Jesus. If you're going to be a bigot, at least have the decency not to be goddamned stupid on top of it. also, since it bears saying, if you are voting anything but yes for allowing gay marriage, you are anti gay and a bigot.
The hammer falls ever harder the second Hawk begins posting. That was a pretty severe smashing.
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I'm kind of confused. QuanticHawk posted that they may need financial incentives, and that there is a financial risk for players nearing the end of their career and that they would want to play as long as possible.
But Jibba pointed out that he has made 30+ million dollars during his career, and that while he may be doing this public statement for publicity, cash is likely not the motivation. I tend to agree with Jibba here.
So I doubt that he had any financial concerns in coming out as gay. So it kind of leads me to believe that he's doing this at a period of his life where he doesn't have to worry about the repercussions; i.e. even if he is replaced by someone else, he'll still be okay.
- - -
I think there may be a legitimate analysis about his true reasons for coming out though. I think its clear that in America there is a changing attitude towards gays and gay marriage; and that as the years pass certain people who were "the first" to do something in an area like gay rights will be remembered and even idolized. If they can get over, or are unaffected by, the initial wave of homophobic remarks by the dwindling crowd of mostly religious people and bigots in general; then ultimately it is in their own best interest to come out, because in the end they are being congratulated and praised by the people who matter and those with "legitimacy" such as the president of the united states, the first lady, or Kobe among many others.
If you had a choice between coming out, and being demonized by a group of bigoted people, but also being praised by a growing majority in America, including people of influence, and potentially being seen as one of the first to spur positive moral change in professional sports for the historical record, I think its reasonable to say that most people would choose to come out (assuming finances were of no concern). Of course this would not be a good idea for players who are just starting, because their finances are still a concern.
So its not a stretch for me to think he may have done this for selfish reasons, considering he was well off financially as Jibba noted. But I really can't say for certain, he may have done this because he is genuinely the type of person who wants to inspire others. In the end its immaterial, so long as it helps people come out I suppose it doesn't matter too much.
Also a side note to quantichawk: When you say that anyone who votes no to allowing gay marriage is anti gay and a bigot, I think you are being extreme. There are many people who don't understand what gay marriage entails, and I have seen many forum arguments where people mistakenly believed that gay marriage implies that they will force religious people to abandon their religious beliefs and marry them as Christians. They are unaware that marriage has a secular context as well. So you should probably avoid saying those sorts of things, as it doesn't help anyone understand.
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I mean the financial incetive comment as far as that one dude's offhand remark about him doing it because Nike was offering a huge contract or whatever the hell he said.
Personally, knowing a few people who came out to my family and friends, I think it was him just wanting to feel comfortable in his own skin, which is hard to do when you're lying a lot about your life. And recognizing that as an athlete, even a crappy one, he is in a position drastically alter the discussion on gay rights in a country where you still may be openly discriminated against for being gay, where gay couples don't even have the same basic rights as hetero couples. Maybe being viewed as noble as you said helped, but like I feel with the financial incentive from nike, it's so minor I do not care.
if you havent read it, his story (in his own words with minimal editing) gives insight:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/news/20130429/jason-collins-gay-nba-player/
and yeah, re gay marriage, I recognize that a lot of people don't know that. However, I am of the opinon that if you care enough on that to vocalize your opinion or even vote without knowing that, you're stlll every bit as much of a moron as the dude who voted no because he just straight up hates gays.
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