NationWars: Group B - Page 32
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
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Dinotramp
Nauru2871 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:38 Waise wrote: someone want to tell totalbiscuit that 15h 16p is quite a standard macro opener in zvt? like yeah it can be scary against 11/11 but that's why you 11/11 in the first place. because every zerg goes 15/16... Can someone tell the LR thread to quit being pedantic for no reason? That'd be nice. How on earth did we end up with Morrow in our team :S By causing a bunch of ridiculous drama and harassing Naniwa out of the event apparently. Sweden did a fantastic job of shooting themselves in the foot before this event even began, not even Zansters great performance could save you. | ||
Anlo
Sweden485 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:34 shid0x wrote: downfall are you going to meltdown soon ? we want to see our MVP in flesh and bones. Chubz's all-ins denied me this pleasure. ): | ||
Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:39 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell the LR thread to quit being pedantic for no reason? That'd be nice. How on earth do you write and commentate at the same time!? :D I am not always the greatest fan of your casting. However I want to give HUGE thumbs up to your for commentating for this many hours. I also think you did well in your solo casting. Take care. | ||
Roachu
Sweden692 Posts
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Dinotramp
Nauru2871 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:41 Glorfindel! wrote: How on earth do you write and commentate at the same time!? :D I am not always the greatest fan of your casting. However I want to give HUGE thumbs up to your for commentating for this many hours. I also think you did well in your solo casting. Take care. delay | ||
Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
How on earth did we end up with Morrow in our team :S By causing a bunch of ridiculous drama and harassing Naniwa out of the event apparently. Sweden did a fantastic job of shooting themselves in the foot before this event even began, not even Zansters great performance could save you. Ohh Please, I have already had this discussion in this thread once. There was never any "harassment". Recomend you to read my thoughts about earlier it if you are interested. I am very well aware of why Naniwa is not in the team. It was more a... "Look, we could had Thorzain, Naniwa and others.. And we ended up with this" I can not understand either how you can call it "Ridicoulous". What basicly happend was that people said "Look if eSports want to be taken serious and we are supposed to have national team then we need a coach who actually can pick the best team. If players do not want to play there, then they should be free to decline but they should not decide for other players to not be in the team because that is not solid in the long run". That discussion is rather important on how the team selection is to be made and I can not understand how on earth you can call that "ridicolous" if you want this scene to be taken seriously. One of the few who actually acted childish, harassed and made fun of others was actually Naniwa himself. I placed a few quotes earlier but I can tell you there was a lot of them. | ||
Waise
3165 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:39 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell the LR thread to quit being pedantic for no reason? That'd be nice. you're so touchy about the slightest critique. i didn't trash you or call you stupid, i just thought the hype over going up to 16 pool sounded silly because it's very standard | ||
TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:43 Waise wrote: you're so touchy about the slightest critique. i didn't trash you or call you stupid, i just thought the hype over going up to 16 pool sounded silly because it's very standard. Of course it's standard, but it's also dangerous against 11/11, hence hype. How hard is that to understand? WHY IS TB DOING HIS JOB AND MAKING THIS MATCH EXCITING FOR THE VIEWER!?!?! | ||
BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
What is this delay? Some form of magic? | ||
Waise
3165 Posts
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WoodLeagueAllStar
United States806 Posts
Sweden, I never believed in them, if they had a Swedish woman on that team they would be tougher to beat. Look at this Morrow cheese, and how they kicked Naniwa out just like a schoolyard girl drama with shunning tactics, and read Naniwa's Twitter fight, which was so catty. That isn't like how men should be acting! Get it together and stop the feminists Sweden, bring back your proper character and determination to your boys. Let them pee standing up for Gods sake, so they can win sitting down. | ||
Waise
3165 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:58 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote: How bloody else is TB supposed to cast that scenario? Welp, Zerg being Zerg but proxy barracks meaningless will not work. I mean really? It was a legit call to suggest 16 pool was too slow in that time to beat proxy barracks, the result was good enough but it wasn't SURE that was going to bring enough units to defend that. Stop even pretending you would be a better caster than TB especially after 9 hours, I like his style better anyway even if its not AS accurate its a lot more dramatic. relax man, no one at any point "pretended they would be better than TB;" it was just an opinion and i already dropped it because it's not a big deal. | ||
TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:45 BeyondCtrL wrote: What is this delay? Some form of magic? Indeed. Twitch sorcery allows for up to 10 minute tape delay to prevent cheating. We were running 6 for this event. | ||
TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On January 19 2014 10:42 Glorfindel! wrote: Ohh Please, I have already had this discussion in this thread once. There was never any "harassment". Recomend you to read my thoughts about earlier it if you are interested. I am very well aware of why Naniwa is not in the team. It was more a... "Look, we could had Thorzain, Naniwa and others.. And we ended up with this" I can not understand either how you can call it "Ridicoulous". What basicly happend was that people said "Look if eSports want to be taken serious and we are supposed to have national team then we need a coach who actually can pick the best team. If players do not want to play there, then they should be free to decline but they should not decide for other players to not be in the team because that is not solid in the long run". That discussion is rather important on how the team selection is to be made and I can not understand how on earth you can call that "ridicolous" if you want this scene to be taken seriously. One of the few who actually acted childish, harassed and made fun of others was actually Naniwa himself. I placed a few quotes earlier but I can tell you there was a lot of them. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1vj9pk/germany_crushes_sweden_30/cet2ruj This is a quote from the Swedish manager to clearly states there was harassment going on. The article by Maddelisk was extremely ill-advised and contributed heavily to a witch hunt. Heck the article went as far as to use the word "Utpressning", which translates to blackmail/extortion. Naniwa was evidently attacked by Swedish fans as a result of this article and decided not to play in the event as a result. Sweden in return lost their star player and well, you saw the result of that. Zanster, Bischu, Nani would have been a powerhouse, or Zanster, Sortof, Nani, but Morrow unfortunately was not up to the task today | ||
Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On January 19 2014 11:03 TotalBiscuit wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1vj9pk/germany_crushes_sweden_30/cet2ruj This is a quote from the Swedish manager to clearly states there was harassment going on. The article by Maddelisk was extremely ill-advised and contributed heavily to a witch hunt. Heck the article went as far as to use the word "Utpressning", which translates to blackmail/extortion. Naniwa was evidently attacked by Swedish fans as a result of this article and decided not to play in the event as a result. Sweden in return lost their star player and well, you saw the result of that. Zanster, Bischu, Nani would have been a powerhouse, or Zanster, Sortof, Nani, but Morrow unfortunately was not up to the task today You might not be aware that one of the persons reciving critism was Wake himself? Can you please quote me some of the "harass" that was actually written or said to Naniwa? I followed the whole discussion, hundres of posts in Swedish and I hardly saw anyone harass Naniwa as a person. What people were discussing was if the manager should give in for his demands (by not nominating Thorzain and Miniraiser) or just nominate all of the best players and then let Naniwa decline afterwards. Naniwa however if ANYONE was harassing left and right, writing ironic and sarcastic posts and not really trying to avoid any drama. I think he wrote one or two offensive posts towards me that was deleted by the moderators. Following it up by liking every single post I wrote. If I had gotten upset and harassed him afterwards, hell he had been worth it, however I did not even though I myself recieved some shit from him. However as I experienced it most people arguing that the best team should always be selected and then it is up to anyone to accept or decline just ignored Naniwas posts, they certainly did not harass. I recomend you to follow @NaNiwaSC2 on Twitter if you search for harassment I think just because you are good at something doesnt really give you the right to act as you want and that also includes Naniwa. Its crazy how E-sports persons sometimes want to be Kayne West and the next second dont want anyone to critisise what they say or how they act. Just the good parts and none of the bad. I end the discussion here for my part. My opinion is that Swedens failure lies in that Wake was not able to bring the strongest team we could have had and if he is responsible for nominating and coaching the swedish team then the failure of the team, as in any other sport lies on him and the players fielded. You cannot blame that on the community. For an example if a football manager not succeds in getting two of the starts in a team to work together (Zlatan and Messi in Barcelona). Imagine the shitstorm if Guardiola blamed the crowd of not being supportive enough... Or telling them its their fault the team looses cause they "boooo" when the team plays bad fotball. | ||
Gothic
Sweden122 Posts
1) Wake tries to contact various people for the team. Some players give him a "maybe" which he can't use at all, and some don't reply at all (according to Wake, Thorzain did not reply despite two separate contact attempts two weeks apart). 2) Wake talks to Naniwa, who says that if Thorzain and Miniraser are on the team, he won't participate as they really, really don't like eachother. I don't know exactly what else was said, but I imagine Naniwa felt he just couldn't work with people he doesn't get along with. You could interpret this as "blackmailing", or you could see it as knowing yourself and your limits and being straight forward about it. Naniwa left it up to Wake to decide. So Wake decides on Naniwa, I guess since Thorzain didn't seem interested enough to answer anyway, and Miniraser didn't measure up to Naniwa's skill. He also knew of the history between these players, and reasoned that there would be little he could do to change anyone's mind. Remember Naniwa's motivation to play was solely based on doing it for the fans. He was prepared to skip an economically lucractive showmatch for this. Maddelisk's argument that Wake should have tried harder, I can somewhat buy, but there are limits to this as well and I would like to know what Maddelisk thinks Wake should have used as a carrot (or whip?) to get Naniwa to expose himself to people he has such a strong dislike for. To put this in perspective, I think it's a bit early to compare esports to football and what kind of commitment you are entitled to expect from the players. 3) Someone (I cant remember who now) makes a comment on Twitter about the Swedish National team, and Thorzain replies something along the lines of "oh you mean the team where Naniwa said he won't play if i'm in it?" Naniwa responds that he doesn't think Thorzain is good enough for the team anyway, and the shitstorm proceeds. Nani presents his case in a blunt, snarky manner, while Thorzain plays the victim. DeMuslim jumps in with personal attacks on Naniwa, Naniwa responds. DeMuslim deletes his own post (the worst one). All in all a rather childish exchange from all sides, where the truth and who's right or wrong gets lost somewhere along the way. (for the record, I think Naniwa was in the right, but... presentation is kind of important) 4) Maddelisk writes her article in the biggest Swedish online newspaper, in which she doesn't directly accuse Naniwa and/or Wake, but she first gives an incomplete account on what happened including their names and then goes on to say that bullying and extortion in esports must be stopped. Anyone with a normally functioning sense of logic will connect the lines between the two dots and realize that she is using what happened as an example of things that need to be stopped. I think she realizes this too, even if she afterwards says that she doesn't directly accuse anyone. There was a clear opinion on who was the bully while Thorzain was portrayed as a victim, where in reality he failed to even get back to Wake in order to get on the team in the first place. Personally I think the article brings up good and important points about the lack of maturity in the esports scene, but I think it was a mistake to bring up an example where she didn't seem to have the whole picture clear. And even if she had been 100% rightly informed, I still think it was a mistake and instead caused a huge backfire as things got very personal. A debate like this gets hurt by going personal, as the point tends to get lost along the way. 5) A lot of Swedes, many of which hadn't followed the whole series of events from the beginning, read the article and then believed the rather one sided implication of Thorzain and Miniraser being victims of Naniwa's bullying. A huge discussion over two different threads on Barcraft Stockholm (a facebook group in which most big Swedish Starcraft personalities are members, and any fan including myself can become a member and take part) ensues, discussing the article and two camps are formed - one defending Naniwa/Wake, and one backing Maddelisk and her article, taking it as gospel and absolute truth. Granted, it's not entirely Maddelisk's fault that people tend to take what they read in a sensationalism oriented newspaper as absolute truth, but I dont think she helped by making the debate personal and including names, regardless of how correct or incorrect her information was. In any case, there were personal insults hurled in both directions, and much moderating had to be done. Apparently, there is much work to be done with the maturity among Swedish esports fans as well. 5) Naniwa obviously reads everything that's being said about him in Barcraft Stockholm and jumps in with some ironic and sarcastic comments. He sees himself as a victim of a witch hunt and that sentiment is influencing his posts a lot. In the end he announces his leaving the team. Glorfindel above says that many posts and personal attacks were moderated, and I do believe the moderated posts came from both sides. If Naniwa himself were responsible for some of them I wouldn't be too surprised, given his tendency to present his often reasonable opinions in a rather immature way, BUT... ...I think something a lot of people missed out on was that just because someone is poor at presenting his case and opinion - it doesn't mean that they're wrong. If you were innocently accused of something in court and you had a lawyer who couldn't express himself in a way that brought respect and understanding from the judge/jury, would you be any less innocent? Naniwa is extremely blunt in his ways, and he has a tendency to be a bit bitter and sarcastic, but he IS often right, it's just that it's harder to swallow because of the way he presents it. That is at least my opinion. Finally I want to say that I do like (in different ways) most of the great Swedish Starcraft players and personalities. I am a huge fan of Naniwa, and I jump in my couch with genuine joy for him when he wins games. I cheered like mad for Thorzain when he won Dreamhack, I loved Maddelisk's work with Esport-SM and was delighted to hear she won the women's World cup. I really like the fact that Aftonbladet (the mentioned newspaper) is bringing Starcraft 2 into the big news too. I just wish they'd all get along and act more professional (that includes everyone in this drama), and with less prestige involved. Maybe it just seems easy to me as a recently become 40 year old, but I can't recall even I was this childish when I was in my 20:ies. Maybe it's what internet has done to people growing up with it, I don't know. Finally, Glorfindel, I respect your opinion and I am in no way attacking you here. I just wanted to bring up a different perspective of the whole matter, from my own personal point of view. I've tried to keep it balanced, but I guess that's up to everyone who reads to decide. | ||
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