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As an extreme bursty build, you can do it this way. Use flat Ap quitnts and glyphes. Get double doran's first to acquire minimum sustainability and survivability. Then everytime you return, you buy things depending on your gold: >775, sorc >860, blast rod >1200, sheen >1300, mejai >1500, guise >1600, NLR
CDR is irrelavant here, since you are not expecting to use any skill twice in a fight.
EDIT: I made a mistake it is not from Apdo. I cannot remember the actual source though....
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He is right though: If you're going to go burst, go burst. Get Sorc, Guise and then damage. If you're feeling like you need some mana in there you get a doran's ring or two because doran's rings provide damage and Chalice doesn't.
He is wrong about this though;
Once you get a Deathcap your AP in the Athenes build will start to scale multiplicitavely. You'll be forced to either get a 6th item Liandry since you went Haunting Guise, or sell the thing late game, neither of which is an attractive option.
1) The damage boost on Deathcap applies evenly to all scaled damage. +30% AP is just another way of saying "multiply scaled damage by 30%" It does not matter how that damage is achieved. If Haunting Guise does the same damage as Athenes then when you add a Deathcap, Haunting Guise will still do the same damage as Athenes, the calculus here does not change.
2) Liandry's is actually a good lategame item due to the way MR pen scales. Consider what happens when you have voidstaff and so you're penetrating 39% of the enemies MR. Since flat pen is added after scaling pen and suppose that we have 20.5 Mpen from runes and sorcs. Versus a 100 MR target and no items you're going to be attacking into 40.6 MR effective. With Guise/Liandry's you're going to be attacking into 25.6 MR effective.
This means that Liandry's is a flat 11% increase in your damage (scaling damage and base damage) before considering its AP.
So how much AP do we need to increase our damage by 11%? We have 2.05 AP scaling on our combo and assuming one passive procc we do 1190 + 2.66 (post deathcap value) AP
If we somehow had 0 AP despite having deathcap and void staff we would need 49.21 AP[on top of the 50 that guise itself brings] in order to increase our damage by 11%. So an item would have to have 99 AP.
If we had 190 AP (pre deathcap values, this is a zero AP, zero scaling start with Deathcap, Voidstaff, so 240 after the Liandrys, 312 total AP) an item would have to have +75 AP[So 125 base AP] in order to do more damage than Laindry's.
What this means, basically, is that if you have sorc shoes, deathcap, void staff, and are thinking of a final item to cap your build Liandry's provides more damage against squishies than DFG or Zhonya's before you consider its burn damage. DFG would clearly beat it single target with the active. But AoE the Liandry's is actually really strong.
And the more AP you have the better the enemy MR breakpoint becomes.
At 150 MR the % damage increase the Pen on Liandry's brings is about 10%(you hit 56 MR instead of 71 MR). This makes the cutoff point 232 raw(pre deathcap) AP. If you have more than this Liandrys does more damage than Zhonyas
At 200 MR Liandry's provides about 8% extra damage. The raw AP breakpoint is now 426[ so 555 AP with a deathcap]
Against the majority of non-tank targets, I.E. the targets you're really wanting to do damage to. Liandry's outperforms DFG (minus the active) or Zhonya's given your build not even considering the burn damage.
This isn't to say that DFG or Zhonya are bad. DFG has an incredible active. But it is to say that your build, before the last item and using your standard runes and masteries has 408 raw AP in it (120 Deathcap, 120 Zhonya, 60 Athenes, 70 Void, 38 maserteries/runes, 0 Sorc, 6th item for comparison will show as 556-7 on your stat sheet due to the 5% AP mastery i forgot to include). The damage that Liandry's gives, not considering its passive, is equivalent to the damage that DFG gives (but available in significant quantities much earlier due to the cheapness of haunting guise) to your build to about 180 MR.
Its also important to note that the 1 proc, full rotation condition is generally advantageous to the AP stat on lux. This is because her Q has the lowest "AP needed to double damage" stat of any of her abilities (371 vs 400 on e and 666.6 on r) and it includes the lowest reasonable amount of passive procs (land E then land R then land no more auto attacks)
Edit: When i say "raw(Pre deathcap)" I mean 'before multiplying your AP by 1.3'. Since I did that in another part of the calculation and it makes writing out the breaks here. If you want to know what this looks like on your character sheet, multiply by 1.3 and then 1.05 (since i forgot to do the AP mastery scaling multiplication and while yes it will have a slight effect it should not be that significant)
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Here are some numbers based on the above post by Goumindong, based on our level 9 Lux example, adding a Deathcap into the build. You wouldn't have a Deathcap at level 9 but this will still prove my point.
With Athenes, adding Deathcap would up our AP from 105 to 292.5
With Guise, adding Deathcap would up our AP from 40 to 208
Our combo in this case is now doing, vs. lets say 82 MR now:
Athenes: From 631.9 to 912, an increase of 281.1 Guise: From 597.4 to 869.5, an increase of 272.1
It's about a 44% increase in overall damage either way, so Goumindong is not wrong. But the actual number increases by more if you had an Athenes, because you're getting more AP. That's why I said the Deathcap is better if you got Athenes first. Since it gives more AP it also increases your shield value by more than Guise, and that doesn't care about enemy MR or your Mpen. Deathcap is more cost efficient the more AP you have, that's pretty obvious.
Critically, if you got a Haunting Guise and then Deathcap, you wouldn't have enough AP to one shot caster minions with E at the normal timing, and would need another AP item to do so. Since Void Staff and Guise do have pretty good synergy with each other, if you DID get a Haunting Guise, you would always want to get the Void Staff before the Deathcap. Since Athenes + Void Staff already outdamages Athenes + Deathcap, Guise + Void Staff would be pretty good damages on champions.
As far as Liandry goes, I think people tend to overestimate the amount of damage Liandry adds to Lux. Here are some facts in regards to the Liandry passive:
1 - If Lux combos somebody, that person will only take one Liandry proc in damage since all 3 spells apply within half a second of each other.
2 - Lux's E does not deal extra damage as per a slowed target.
So with that said, lets look at the raw damage that you'd deal with a 6th item DFG as opposed to a 6th item Liandry.
With a full build we have: 773 AP, 6%+35%+21 mpen with DFG. 678 AP, 6%+35%+36 mpen with Liandry.
An ADC with a Banshee's Veil and an Aegis on the enemy team lets say should have 122.8 MR.
Our combo does 1190+205% AP E harass does 240+60% AP
Here's what the numbers look like:
With DFG: 1875 combo, 470 E With Liandry: 1934 combo, 480 E
So against a squishy target a 6th item Liandry does do about 60 more damage with a full combo, and fairly equal damage with E harass. Add in the Liandry passive and HP and it looks pretty good, right? Well, here are some things to consider.
First, the extra AP on DFG will add 33.25 to your shield per shield application. You're going to get a minimum of lets say 4 shield applications in a fight, and a maximum of lets say 8 (getting all 10 is nearly impossible) if you only get to cast the shield once in a fight. So you're adding somewhere between 133 and 266 extra HP to your team per spellcast with DFG. You typically get at least 2 shields in a fight at this point in the game so we're talking minimum about 300 extra shielded HP on targets who are actually being focused. Much better than the HP on Liandry.
Note: Lux's shields in a late game teamfight are a super big deal, you don't want to underestimate how good having bigger shields is.
Second, the 7.5% extra CDR (not 10% since you were at 32.5% before) is adding to your harass, as well as your shields, since these are both going to be used before the fight and with 6 second cooldowns can often come up twice during a fight.
While you're probably not going to get 2 ults, factoring CDR into your overall harass damage it looks like this. DFG: 78.33 damage per second per target Liandry: 71.11 damage per second per target
Now, the Liandry passive is likely adding more than that, probably something like an extra 10 DPS or so depending on who you're poking. This is the one thing that Liandry is really good at, poke damage in an extended siege. However, it's important to point out that the CDR from DFG is helping here as well. Do note that the Liandry passive damage on somebody you combo is almost nothing, even though they're snared. We're talking maybe 10 damage.
Another important note here is that going to max CDR allows you to do that thing Lux does in a siege where you use your ult on every minion wave if you just never want to fight their team. You can't do it with less than 40% CDR since her ult duration was nerfed.
Finally, we have the DFG active, which is going to give you an extra at least 350 damage, and probably more damage depending on who you use it on and how well you can work another Q-E rotation into the amplified damage. Typically as Lux you don't use the DFG to add to your combo damage since the target is too far away, you wait and use the DFG to do a second DFG>Q>auto>E>auto combo to whatever bruiser gets into your teams back line. If you do the combo correctly this second rotation should do an extra 500 or so damage even counting high enemy MR.
So, basically at the end of the day, the extra benefit for your shields is better on DFG than the HP is on Liandry.
Your combo damage and harass damage is about the same, maybe about 2% higher with Liandry. However, any added damage from Liandry is going to be overtaken by the added active damage on DFG, and DFG should be doing more overall damage in the fight.
I will admit that the Liandry numbers look better than I thought they would, probably because we're looking at a fairly low MR target. But all put together I think it looks pretty clear that DFG is better. It's also much better in practical applications over just digesting number theory, because the big thing about the Liandry passive is that it can never kill someone. The DFG active can kill someone who survives your combo at low health rather than you having to wait 6 seconds to get them with your next spell. Kind of a big deal.
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If you want a 6th item to help you doing more damage at close range/killing diver/winning duel late game, lichbane is the one to go. DFG is mainly used to cap cdr w/o blue buff.
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DFG does more damage than Lich Bane, there is math on that in the guide.
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Only when you active is up and you have a full spell rotation and you start the fight at close range.
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If you're going to make a claim like that, you should actually post the math to support it. Obviously the DFG active would need to be up, but late game it should be up for every teamfight.
It works out that DFG is doing more damage till about your third or even fourth Lich Bane proc (depending on how many people you're hitting with your spells), which you'd get about 14 to 21 seconds into a fight.
Late game teamfights don't last 21 seconds, generally.
It's also worth noting that DFG has a longer range than Lich Bane, 750 vs 550.
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On January 31 2014 03:51 lega wrote: Only when you active is up and you have a full spell rotation and you start the fight at close range. Dfg range > lichbane range so if you change get the active on dfg off you can't get lichbane off. The lichbane proc is considerably more important to its dps than the dfgs active is to its.
@ketara
I don't disagree that dfg is a good item (though I do disagree that you get as much value as you think out of cdr) for precisely the reasons that you mentioned
My point was mainly that even with liandrys inefficient AP value it still ends up being competitive for damage.
It's main advantage is that the majority of the damage is contained in the guise portion of the build. So if you build guise earlier and sit on it you can upgrade it later and not feel bad. If you buy haunting guise after you have deathcap and void staff it's easily the most cost efficient item providing zhonyas level damage until around 150 mr but for half the cost. The reason I get guise earlier is because I like going after champions more than minions but a heavy farming game is just as much a legitimate play choice.
That being said you're still underestimating the damage that the liandrys passive does. While liandrys is best on burn champions it still does damage every time you reapply it. So your initial combo still gets a 3 full initial ticks(one for a one for e one for r) and then the tickdown (some of which may or may not be doubled).
If someone has 1000 hp the non bonuses tick is 10 damage (about 3 APs worth on your full combo) so we aren't talking a totally insignificant amount of damage when we add it all up. It's maybe worth another 10-15 APs worth.
This may not be enough to change your purchase decisions but you should give a mid to mid-late game guise a try and see how it feels.
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The problem with that statement is that the Liandry damage is calculated after the damage is applied from the attack, not before.
So if you do a full combo to somebody, in order for Liandry to do 10 damage per tick after counting MR, the target has to have something like 750 HP left. In order for them to have 750 HP left after taking 1934 damage to the face, they'd have to have 2684 HP, and nobody else hits them with anything during that 3 seconds.
In practical situations, that doesn't happen. While the Liandry passive is good (very good) in extended siege poke situations, it's not very good once the actual teamfight breaks out. Typically real long sieges happen more in the mid game, since when everybody is at 6 items diving an inhibitor tower is no longer all that big of a deal, if the tower is even still there.
As for the build path, I'd be interested to see if a Haunting Guise outdamages the NLR in a DFG. Our math earlier when we were talking about Athenes showed that it clearly wouldn't, since the Athenes damage was equal or better than the Guise damage. But at full build, Guise is probably better.
I don't grab the NLR first anyway though, I get the Fiendish Codex first. At that point in the game I'm more concerned with CDR than anything else, because I want to make sure that in a teamfight I'll get a second spell rotation off before too many people on my team are dead for it to matter, and I want to start moving blue buff onto my ADC.
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It is a play style argument. Lux is not like Ahri who can decided when to do an all-in. In late game I usually spend all my cool downs on long range poking, not save them for a potential dive. When I get dove, I usually does not have all my spells ready to cast and sometimes it is impossible to land even a single spell on a diver (e.g., zed, fizz). In those cases, lichbane is definitely superior.
Also, lux is a skillshot champion. I never go for any all-in if I cannot land my q and r first. I do not walk in DFG range at first, use the active, unleash the full combo and wish them all hit. What I can do is trying to hit my qr and then walk in to finish my opponent with e w and lichbane procs. If you exclude your q r passive from your DFG vs Lichbane calculation, we don't have to actually do the math to tell which one is better. So actually to me, the engage range of lichbane build is longer than dfg. This is how I approach these two items, maybe I am just bad at hitting those damn skill shots.
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You're not really looking at the DFG correctly. That's why I said to do the math, it would help you out there.
To start with, the DFG active is going to do more damage than a single Lich Bane proc, especially if you use it on a high HP target. Even on a low HP target it will still do more.
Secondly, the added AP and CDR on DFG will make all of your spells do more damage both in burst and sustained damage situations.
When you do the math and add all that together, you find that you need at least 3 Lich Bane procs in order to outdamage DFG, and if each of your spells is hitting multiple people, it's more like 4. Even if you don't use the DFG active as part of a combo and just use it to add damage to whoever gets into the back line like you would Lich Bane, you're having to fight for at least 14 seconds for Lich Bane to overtake DFG in damage, since it takes you 14 seconds to get 3 Lich Bane procs. If you're playing well, hitting multiple targets and using DFG to add bonus damage to your second Q-E rotation, it's more like 4 Lich Bane procs and we're talking 21 seconds for Lich Bane to be better.
DFG also adds more to your shield, which I really cannot overstate is a BIG DEAL late game. Lux's shield is one of the most overpowered teamfight abilities in the game.
Lich Bane is probably better in a 1v1 against a tank, but in practical situations DFG is just better. Lux loses 1v1's against full build tanks with either item anyway.
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10 damage was before MR since we want to compare it easily to how much AP we have.
damage / post deathcap AP ratio = AP in a full combo equivalent to the single proc
10/2.798 = 3.5
So if 3 ticks do 30 damage then liandry's passive is worth ~10.5 AP. Decent, but not amazing.
But that isn't quite right because Liandry's gets a tick for each ability.
So you land the first Q or E and then Liandry's gets a tick. (Max HP - Q/E damage). Then you land the Q/E and regardless of the duration between the Q/E you get another tick (and if you landed the Q first then the tick is doubled because they're snared/slowed). Because Q snares, its tick is doubled. Assume for a second that neither get their second tick and that you ult before that.
The ult gets a third tick plus its combined damage.
So with a Q,E,ult combination we have 2% at (Max minus Q), 1% at (Max minus Q/E), 6% at (Max minus Q/E/ult/passive)
Lets assume you're final build, minus DFG+Liandry's. So you have 625.17 AP. Q does 697.619 before MR. Assume 100 MR (more MR actually makes the tick do more damage) so we're attacking roughly 25 effective MR. This is basically best case for minimizing the damage that Liandry's passive does
Someone has 2000 HP, 100 MR and we land a Q. They have 1441 HP left. Liandry's immediately gets a tick for 2%. Dealing ~28 additional damage before MR which is worth about 10 AP of full combo damage before MR.
Now we land our E, it does 240+.6 AP= 615 damage before MR. We hit someone with 1420 HP(account for the previous liandry's proc), and 100 MR. They have 928 HP and are still snared, so again the liandry's proc is doubled. It gets a single tick for 2% which is about 20 damage. Which is worth another 6.5 AP.
Our ult hits for 500+.75+190 and so does 926 damage after MR. The target is dead since they had 908 HP left*
2000 HP and 100 MR is a fairly low amount of MR and HP to be hitting. As we increase either of these the damage from the liandry's procs increase. The non-passive portion of liandry's damage is most significant against low MR targets
But as we can see, the total damage from the liandry's proc's, while low, was not inconsequential, it was worth another 16.5 AP(actually slightly more since it is also increased by the MR pen that Liandry's brings)
As MR and HP's go up, the effective HP that the liandry's passive gives increases, both because we will end up getting more of the full 6% damage proc's but also just because enemies have more HP left after we use abilities. Naturally this extends the "equivalent damage to dfg" portion of the damage range out past 180 MR.
*it is actually just coincidence that i chose a value where the liandry's passive and Mpen would move a target from "alive after a full burst" to "dead after a full burst". That was not intentional, though it may be good to note that below this combined MR/HP value whether or not you have DFG or Liandry's doesn't matter.
Edit: Again, my point is not that DFG isn't good, its that you're underselling the effect of lategame flat Mpen and even the damage liandrys does.
Give it a try, do your standard build and instead of getting Zhonya's right away, get Guise instead, then get Zhonya's then finish Liandry's as your 6th item
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I just checked this in a custom to make sure, but the first tick from Liandry doesn't happen until 0.5 seconds after the spell hits. You get ticks at 0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 and 3 seconds.
Looking it up, there was actually a bug fix a year ago that made it so multiple spells refreshing wouldn't change the number of ticks you get for better or worse.
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That isn't right, since DOT's get damage even if they reapply within .5 seconds.
Edit: That is to say you have to, at the very least, get the damage on the first proc, which still makes it ~10 AP worth.
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Right, that's why they made it so reapplying something very quickly wouldn't change the number of ticks. When the item originally came out stuff like Singed poison would just never deal any damage because the Liandry debuff was refreshing faster than it could deal any damage.
So basically, you're only getting 6 ticks. Since R has a half second cast time, you might get 7 in a combo, tops. Max 3 of those ticks do extra damage when snared (unfortunately the 2 second tick counts as though the target is no longer movement impaired since the snare just ended, I have tested this too.)
When doing the calculation you also have to remember that each tick does less damage than the last one since the targets current HP is dropping.
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Sure, but i was only figuring one tick anyway. If you only get 30 pre MR damage out of it its still 10 effective AP.
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On January 31 2014 04:47 Ketara wrote: You're not really looking at the DFG correctly. That's why I said to do the math, it would help you out there.
To start with, the DFG active is going to do more damage than a single Lich Bane proc, especially if you use it on a high HP target. Even on a low HP target it will still do more.
How you do your math is rather mysterious to me. According to your lv 18 ap 719 lichbane lux as an example, a zed which has 2000 hp dives her, DFG active gives 15%*2000=300 damage before mr. Lichbane proc is 50+0.75*719=589 damage. Even on a 4k hp target, they do the similar damage. So obviously, DFG does more damage even on a low hp target.
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On January 31 2014 05:31 lega wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 04:47 Ketara wrote: You're not really looking at the DFG correctly. That's why I said to do the math, it would help you out there.
To start with, the DFG active is going to do more damage than a single Lich Bane proc, especially if you use it on a high HP target. Even on a low HP target it will still do more.
How you do your math is rather mysterious to me. According to your lv 18 ap 719 lichbane lux as an example, a zed which has 2000 hp dives her, DFG active gives 15%*2000=300 damage before mr. Lichbane proc is 50+0.75*719=589 damage. Even on a 4k hp target, they do the similar damage. So obviously, DFG does more damage even on a low hp target.
DFG multiplies all magic damage dealt to the target by anyone by 20%. So Zed dives you and you Q/E him in response. These do 20% more damage. If you are unable to get a Q/E off then your lichbane proc does zero damage anyway. If you're unable to get at least a Q/E off you're not going to live anyway so the damage you do doesn't matter.
But if you do do that then you do get a lot of damage on top of the active. One second and i will tell you how much
edit: 20% of your Q/E damage at 770 AP(DFG AP) is 300 damage.
So DFG gives you 670 damage in that situation. You get 300 from the active, 300 from the extra magic damage on the active, and 70 from the extra scaling damage. If you're also able to ult this value is even larger.
edit: forgot the extra 70 damage from 2 passive procs (if you can get them. Total of 740 extra damage against a 2000 HP target on the DFG).
Lichbane only competes if you can get more than two bonused auto attacks in, but this requires two combo's (so it might not matter) or living for >2 seconds and not needing your W within that period
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A level 18 Zed never has 2k HP. 2250-2500 is more reasonable. With a BC and a red elixir as his only HP items he'll have 2426 end game.
So at 2426 your Lich Bane will do 363.9. 20% bonus damage from your E, Q and 2 passives is another 407.9, so the DFG active is in total doing 771.8 damage if used correctly, even to Zed.
An end game Mundo (5259.1 HP) and it's doing 1196.7 damage, which is a little more than 2 Lich Bane procs.
That is minimum by the way. If anybody else on your team does magic damage to them during that 4 seconds, it's doing more than that.
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On January 31 2014 05:38 Ketara wrote: A level 18 Zed never has 2k HP. 2250-2500 is more reasonable. With a BC and a red elixir as his only HP items he'll have 2426 end game.
So at 2426 your Lich Bane will do 363.9. 20% bonus damage from your E, Q and 2 passives is another 407.9, so the DFG active is in total doing 771.8 damage if used correctly, even to Zed.
So am I the only bad player who cannot hit those skill shots on Zed? At least even if he shadow jukes my q, I can still land AAs. If he use ult to juke my AA, I guess I will be very happy. As I said, you have to assume you can hit everything to justify DFG, since 771.8 damage requires at least 3 lichbane procs to surpass. LoL
And I think Lux should never waste her full rotation on Mundo except at the end of fight.
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