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On March 28 2014 05:59 Xeofreestyler wrote: I still don't get what smash DI means, can someone elaborate?
alright, first let's go over the sequence of things that happen once you get hit. after an attack connects cleanly, several things happen:
-damage is applied -"hitlag", a sort of freezeframe effect, occurs for both the person being hit and the person who did the attack (but only the person being hit can do anything during hitlag). -after hitlag is over, "hitstun" (which is a period of unactionable lag for the person being it) and knockback begin
during histun, DI and Teching are the only inputs that are listened to, i believe. during hitlag, Smash DI is the only possible input.
so what SDI does is move your character a relatively small distance before hitstun and knockback begin. it's performed by inputting a Control Stick direction during the hitlag period. you can input one SDI direction per frame of hitlag, so a lot of people like to SDI by rolling the Control Stick along the gate (e.g. doing a quartercircle in whatever quadrant you want to SDI towards), since this makes it easier to get multiple SDI inputs.
there are a few reasons for using SDI: 1. to escape a multihit attack or an extremely fast link. for instance, Fox's u-air hits twice, first with a weak hit that mostly just stuns and then a strong one capable of killing pretty easily. if you SDI the first hit, you can make your character move to the side, making the second hit fail to connect. another example (which doesn't get done nearly enough imo) is Fox's d-air Drill Kick; if you SDI away from the drill, you can avoid taking multiple hits, and if you do it early enough you can actually avoid the Shine in a drillshine.
2. to eke out a little bit more distance when you're DIing out of a combo. generally when you're trying to escape a combo, you're DIing away and towards the ground or a platform or sometimes safer airspace. since SDI moves your character before the knockback begins, you can use it in addition to regular DI to get further away than what regular DI alone would accomplish. the difference isn't huge, but it can be very significant, making some links impossible and others much more difficult to chase down in time.
3. to tech (especially to ledgetech). when you're recovering from below the stage and someone hits you with an attack just next-to/under the ledge, SDI can move you towads the stage so that you'll be touching the wall when hitstun begins, which makes it possible for you to walltech on the ledge instead of being knocked away.
on the first frame after hitlag ends, whatever direction the Control Stick is holding is input as ASDI (Automatic Smash DI), which also moves your character before knockback begins, but only about half the distance that regular SDI does. one quirk of the ASDI system is that the C-Stick is read with higher priority than the Control Stick, which is good because, you need to use the Control Stick for SDI and regular DI. so you can hold the C-Stick in a direction during hitlag, while you SDI with the Control Stick, and then immediately switch your Control Stick to your regular DI, and whatever direction the C-Stick is holding will be input as ASDI at the end of hitlag.
after hitlag is over and ASDI is realized and knockback begins, the Control Stick is read for regular DI, which (unlike SDI and ASDI) actually changes the angle of your knockback trajectory, rather than simply moving your character in a direction. you can't DI along the same line as the default knockback trajectory, so in order to have the greatest effect on the angle, you want to generally DI perpendicularly to the base knockback trajectory for whatever attack it is.
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Belgium6733 Posts
Wow, sick reply. That's exactly the kind of explanation I was hoping for, thanks!
Now, how much does hitlag last? Is it dependant of the attack or is it a fixed number?
In practice, I need to start using the Cstick while being comboed right? Do I need to doubletap the directions with the controlstick, as in, does it need to be registered separately during hitlag and hitstun?
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Hitlag depends on the attack (Samus' charged shot has one of the most hitlag in the game), while hitstun on the other hand depends on the character you are using.
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/21jhvp/a_guide_on_di_i_made_awhile_back/
Is a guide someone just posted about all the intricacies of DI if you want to read more about it.
Yes in practice you should be using both. If you are using both then I know you will not need to doubletap the directions and am pretty sure you do not need to input it twice. I.e tapping that direction during the SDI and then holding it after being sent flying will give you the DI you're looking for.
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In the documentary, the Japanese apparently "discovered" DI. Are there any new techniques/mechanics that have recently been discovered, or is everything about Melee known already?
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Hyrule18780 Posts
Cactuar just discovered/released a new technique. Something about dash cancel run resume I don't know.
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Belgium6733 Posts
On March 28 2014 13:51 Shinshady wrote:Hitlag depends on the attack (Samus' charged shot has one of the most hitlag in the game), while hitstun on the other hand depends on the character you are using. http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/21jhvp/a_guide_on_di_i_made_awhile_back/Is a guide someone just posted about all the intricacies of DI if you want to read more about it. Yes in practice you should be using both. If you are using both then I know you will not need to doubletap the directions and am pretty sure you do not need to input it twice. I.e tapping that direction during the SDI and then holding it after being sent flying will give you the DI you're looking for.
Sweet, thanks. I saw that guide, I'm actually the guy who proposed redesigning it into a proper layout, I'll post it here once its finished too.
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On March 28 2014 19:37 NapkinBox wrote: In the documentary, the Japanese apparently "discovered" DI. Are there any new techniques/mechanics that have recently been discovered, or is everything about Melee known already?
it's pretty rare for new and significant things to be "discovered", really. even DI was known here before TG6; it's just that the Japanese players at the time were far and away better at it than most players in the States, which was caused mostly by us not knowing some particulars of the mechanics (such as multipleSDI/QCDI), considering it less important relative to how they viewed it, and not really believing that players could react consistently fast enough to DI that much better.
and actually, those three reasons:
1. not knowing mechanics details such as frame data, optimal angles, hitbox specifics, etc. 2. thinking it's too difficult for everyone to execute consistently and implement effectively... 3. and thinking (partially because of the difficulty) that it's of relatively mild importance in the metagame.
pretty much account for why almost every "new discovery" (including the thing that Cactuar, Leffen, Prog, Toph, KK and others have been circlejerking about on Twitter) ends up being something that was known a very very long time ago, but never caught on with the community at large, used instead my a small amount of players here and there.
Shield Dropping is a really good example of this, since it actually is starting to catch on and trickle down as a current trend. i first learned about it in 2005 probably, and it existed in SSB64 so i'm sure there are people who knew about it on day one. this video guide was made in 2010. and in q4 2013, we started hearing about it more frequently as this revolutionary new thing, and in 2014, we're seeing people actually start to do it all over the place—it's still not common, but it's trending upwards enough that the technique will disperse over the course of the year.
and then there's stuff like empty pivots, which have been done by the most mediocre Texas players since maybe 2004. tech tends to trickle down from the top, and Texas had FastLikeTree and a couple other bosses who really liked pivoting, so everyone learned to do it, while most regions tend to typically pivot grab, pivot f-smash, and occasionally pivot n-air or d-smash (among Falcon players mostly). Sung (a ranked player in SoCal) actually came to a tournament here in December and commented on how rando players could do pivot tilts, which are really uncommon in his region even though it's basically Smash heaven. it's a thing.
and then you also get just really weird or creative uses of known techniques or mechanics. but from my perspective, the last "new" tech was like ledgeteching in 2005 or whatever. more stuff just pops up at large as the average tech skill level rises.
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What buttons do top players (like mango, m2k, pp, etc) use for aerials (A button vs c-stick), teching/l-cancelling (L or R), jumps (X,Y, or up), and wavedashing?
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Primarily c-stick for aerials, x or y for jumps. But every player is different, and if you're curious about a specific player, talk to them on Twitter. M2K is accessible on Facebook, too, and Westballz among others has an ask.fm. Can also be character-specific, too.
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Hyrule18780 Posts
Most players use cstick for aerials, and z instead of a for neutral airs. Personally, I tech and shield with R and wavedash with L. Jumps for top players are almost never control stick. X/Y just offer too many benefits. I know M2K typically uses X for jump, though sometimes he uses a claw grip for Fox and with that it's a Y jump instead.
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It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly.
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On March 29 2014 12:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote: It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly. Jesus, it's so hard constantly moving your thumb rapidly between Y and C-stick lol.
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Try X and C-stick then I find it's easier. I only hit Y when pillaring otherwise on any other character I use X.
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On March 29 2014 12:36 NapkinBox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 12:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote: It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly. Jesus, it's so hard constantly moving your thumb rapidly between Y and C-stick lol.
Maybe experiment with a claw grip? So middle finger on Z, index on Y, thumb for A/B/C-stick.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 29 2014 14:24 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2014 12:36 NapkinBox wrote:On March 29 2014 12:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote: It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly. Jesus, it's so hard constantly moving your thumb rapidly between Y and C-stick lol. Maybe experiment with a claw grip? So middle finger on Z, index on Y, thumb for A/B/C-stick. + Show Spoiler + Wtf.
Maybe I've been living under a rock, but is this common? First time I have ever seen a claw grip.
I'm holding my GC controller with the claw grip, and it actually doesn't feel uncomfortable at all. It's probably gonna take a damn while to get used to it though.
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I'd say it's pretty uncommon for most people and somewhat common among some speedrunners and melee players. Not everyone does it, but some do. M2K, as mentioned, plays claw on Fox and normally on everyone else. So just experiment and see what works for you.
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In the normal grip, what fingers are used for Z/R? Index for z and middle for R? One finger for both buttons? (in that case, does that finger primarily rest on Z but occasionally move to R, or vice versa?) Thanks.
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For my normal grip I use the pointer finger for Z and R and it primarily rests on R since I use R for Shield and primary wavedashing. Just do whatever is comfortable for you of course
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Canada8025 Posts
On March 29 2014 15:57 LuckoftheIrish wrote: I'd say it's pretty uncommon for most people and somewhat common among some speedrunners and melee players. Not everyone does it, but some do. M2K, as mentioned, plays claw on Fox and normally on everyone else. So just experiment and see what works for you. Claw was a thing back in the days of competitive Halo too. I have no idea if it's still relevant in console fps or not.
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How do I crouch cancel a dash correctly? Do I roll the control stick in a downward arc, or do I let it return to neutral then move it down? In particular I want to do an immediate d-tilt out of dash but I seem to have trouble with it (sometimes down smashing, sometimes dash attacking etc. When I watch videos, players seem to be able to d-tilt so fast out of a dash)
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