Every subforum needs a simple questions simple answers thread, and this one is no different.
Got a simple question?
How much damage does mario's fireball do?
What are the names of Fox's wingmen on Corneria?
Is Samus a boy or a girl?
Ask in this thread when you have a simple question that can be answered by a simple answer. As always, credit to Zatic for shamelessly stealing his format for these threads.
Several questions about playing online, thank you to Shinshady for the answer here:
On March 27 2014 13:44 Shinshady wrote: I guess I'll make one right now if anybody has any terms they want me to edit in I'll edit it in.
Attacks - (F-air , Dsmash , Utilt, Nair etc) - F = Forwards , D = Down , U = Up , N= Neutral. Air means in the air, tilt means on the ground you slightly slant your control stick in that direction but not all the way (or else you'll do a smash). Smash is the attacks you do with your C-stick or when you hit your control stick the furthest it can go and A at the same time.
Airgrab : When an item is thrown at you (namely Peach/Links in competitive play) pressing Z will grab the item. It is easier to airdodge and grab while doing it but it's better to learn not to rely on air dodging.
Blastline: Areas on the map where when you pass it your character loses a stock.
Character Counter (known as hard/soft counters): In all fighting games most characters have an easier time against another character. Picking a character based on them doing better than the character you are currently using is called a counter. Hard counters mean that your character is really good against them, usually like a 70:30 matchup. Soft counters are usually less extreme such as 60:40 matchups or even 55:45 matchups.
Chain grabbing - The act of grabbing and regrabbing multiple times in a way that your opponent cannot escape.
Counterpick: The act of picking a stage/character after losing normally to have an advantage.
Dashdancing: The acting of dashing left and right during the dash animation finishes so that your character has no lag when turning around
Ditto's (aka Mirror matches) : A match consisting of two of the same characters
Edge-guard: The act of stopping your opponent from coming back to the stage/ledge.
Edgehog: Grabbing the edge while your opponent is recovering so that they cannot grab it themselves usually leading to a kill.
Fast-fall: Pressing down the control stick while at the peak or when your character is already falling from a jump to make your character fall faster.
Free/so free - Meant to denote that a match/player is easy to beat usually meant to insult a player
Friendly: A match that is just mainly for practice i.e. not a serious/tournament match
Gimp: A kill at a low percent (certain moves are good at gimping like Fox's Shine). Normally happens after a character is sent off of stage early and then is hit with a large or set knock back move.
Hitbox: The area of an attack that is able to damage your opponent
Johns: An excuse for why you lost/played badly
JV- Winning with a new stock and taking no hits (0%)
Knockback: This refers to how far a character is pushed back/away from your character by an attack you use.
L-canceling: Usage of the L/R/Z button to cancel the landing frames of a aerial attack (that isn't performed with the B button)
Lag: Downtime after performing a move. Can also mean clunky play between two players online because of connection/internet issues
Meteor Smash: An attack that sends an opponent downwards but can be jump canceled/up B canceled before the hitstun of the attack ends. I.e Mario's Fair
Money Match: A match in which money is on the line for both players.
Power Shield: The act of shielding right before a projectile hits you resulting in the projectile being sent back at the opponent (power shielding makes the projectile yours so it will hit opponents back)
Punish: The act of attacking an opponent is vulnerable very often during lag of attacks. Also very common when someone Up B's back on stage
Salty: Being mad/sad about a loss.
Sandbagging: The act of playing worse against an opponent on purpose for what ever reason.
SD/Self-Destruct: Getting KOed (losing a stock) without your opponent hitting you to make you lose said stock.
Sex Kick: An attack that has a hitbox out until the attack animation is fully completed i.e. Shiek's nair
Share Stock: Taking a stock from your partner in a doubles game
Short Hop: Jumping up at a smaller height than you would if you held the jump button/control stick up. Leads to a smaller jump variant.
Spike: An attack that sends an opponent downwards and cannot be canceled before the hitstun ends. I.E Marth's tipper Dair
Stage Spike: When an attack hit's an opponent that sends them into a wall. When they hit the wall they'll be sent at a downward angled direction similar to a spike as it cannot be canceled unless the opponent teched the wall hit.
Stalling: The act of making a match longer. This can happen by avoiding your opponent, through multiple ledge grabs (as grabbing the ledge grants you invincibility for a short time and this can be refreshed), etc.
Star KO: Getting KOed off the top blast zone resulting in your character being sent flying off like a shooting star.
Sweet spot: Some attacks have areas where they have different properties. This is very prominent in a character like Marth. Hitting his sweet spot (known as tippers as it is the tip of the sword) leads to more powerful attacks and more knockback. Note: Sweet spotting can also mean Sweet spotting the ledge which means that you perfectly use an Up-B and at the highest point/end of the animation your character grabs the ledge so you have no lag and cannot be punished.
Teching: The act of hitting L/R right while your character is in hitstun before they hit the ground or part of the stage. This leads to your character getting back up instantly instead of ending up on the ground in a vulnerable state. Teching is important for surviving as a lot of combos can be done when you fail to tech.
Technology: Usually refers to techniques and strategies that is not really known to people or hard to input.
Wall jump: The act of pressing the opposite direction of a wall, and your character will do a special animation and jump off of the wall and in an arc direction. Only some character can wall jump. (If you wall tech and hold up while doing so, your character will perform a wall jump even if they normally cannot).
Wavedash: The act of jumping and quickly airdashing towards the ground to create a sliding motion. See advanced techniques for more information.
Waveland: The act of wavedashing at the end of a jump or to cancel the rest of your jump so you land on a platform faster. Can be used in combos.
Wobbling: The act of Ice Climbers grabbing an opponent and attacking them with Nana and Popo in a precise timing that makes it impossible to get out of the grab leading to for sure kills. Can only happen at certain percents above 30% or so.
# stocking - Amount of lives left when winning the game
Thanks to joshie0808 for some of the terms earlier
You edited the op. Here are my responses to those questions. + Show Spoiler +
For fox the most basic strong combo is Up Throw -> Up Air. It kills marth at ~90% on most stages. For recovery it's ideal to side b (illusion) if possible. It has less wind up time so one cannot react to it as well as they can with up b (firefox). Of course use firefox if necessary. For mechanics, the most important things you've probably seen on the advanced how to play video. Wave dash 100 times in a row. Wave land 100 times in a row. SHFFL properly 100 times in a row. Those are the basic mechanics that can increase your skill infinitely
What is wave dash, wave land, and SHFFL? how does one properly execute these maneuvers?
also I really want to know how professionals can execute a recovery attempt after getting spiked with pretty high damage. Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
On March 19 2014 10:15 Aveng3r wrote: What is wave dash, wave land, and SHFFL? how does one properly execute these maneuvers?
also I really want to know how professionals can execute a recovery attempt after getting spiked with pretty high damage. Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
There are plenty of youtube videos and guides on smashboards regarding wavedashing, waveland, and SHFFL. When professionals seemingly recovery from getting hit really hard, they are doing something called Directional Influence. You can also learn that from Youtube or smashboards.
On March 19 2014 10:15 Aveng3r wrote: What is wave dash, wave land, and SHFFL? how does one properly execute these maneuvers?
also I really want to know how professionals can execute a recovery attempt after getting spiked with pretty high damage. Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
In NTSC melee, there are 2 kind of spikes. Meteor spikes, and pure spikes. If you press jump right after being spiked, you can perform whats called a meteor cancel, where you negate a large part of the spike, generally enough to recover from. The timing becomes more strict as you get to a higher percent. Ganon, marth, falco, and when you spike with captain falcon's nipple are pure spikes. They cannot be meteor cancelled, so when you get hit by them you need to up b from way below the stage to recover.
I guess it's just weird for me to see nair oos called a combo, it's kinda 1 move in my head XD And usually I see every fox start off with nair shine since nair oos is actually really dangerous if you can't short hop properly.
On March 19 2014 12:03 Count9 wrote: wow, that was 6 yrs ago holy shit. And rewatching it I didn't even see that many nairs oos from him, though cactuar's fox has always been... special.
Cactuar's Fox doesn't combo anyways, or at least that was his reputation.
On March 19 2014 12:05 cekkmt wrote: Up throw up air is a good killing combo with fox but it can be Smash DI'ed out of the second hit, which is the one that kills.
DI the throw is first resort to escaping the uair. Of course Fox's can chase the DI if they are fast enough. SDI will get you out of the second hit, but new meta Foxes like Leffen has incoperated second hit only uairs.
Cactuar's reputation was for being batshit insane. That's why there was a catuar measuring unit for measuring how ridiculous something is on the forums for a couple months.
On March 19 2014 10:18 Aveng3r wrote: also what is an L cancel?
L cancel is when you hit L right as you land, and it will recover you right away instead of having to get up slowly.
L cancel is when you hit L/R/Z right when you land while doing an attack animation (has to be an A attack cannot be a special/B attack) to cancel the "lag frames" by about 1/2.
On March 19 2014 10:15 Aveng3r wrote: What is wave dash, wave land, and SHFFL? how does one properly execute these maneuvers?
also I really want to know how professionals can execute a recovery attempt after getting spiked with pretty high damage. Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
Wavedash is jumping then quickly airdodging towards the stage which creates a sliding motion for your character and moves your character while they are in neutral.
Waveland is the same as a wavedash except it's after a jump/short hop. It is often used to get onto platforms faster and help combo/punish.
SHFFL is Short Hop Fast Fall L-cancel.
In response to the spike question Doomblaze has it fully answered except it's normally called a Meteor smash I believe (the one's that can be jump cancelled and therefore meteor cancelled). Pure spikes cannot be jumped cancelled and will have the attack projecting the person downwards until the hitstun has expired which at high percentages is impossible.
You might want to edit this into the OP. This is the advanced how to play video. It goes into detail on the advanced techniques and explains them. Credit of course goes to Wak from smashboards & AlphaZealot for all of the writing
On March 19 2014 13:05 TyrionSC2 wrote: You might want to edit this into the OP. This is the advanced how to play video. It goes into detail on the advanced techniques and explains them. Credit of course goes to Wak from smashboards & AlphaZealot for all of the writing
Yep right after I opened this thread I found that video, I should've watched it before posting lol. But yeah when I wake up tomorrow I will put that in the op
On March 19 2014 11:41 tofucake wrote: Fox's best and most basic combo is nair oos, demonstrated here
What exactly is the combo from that match? I saw a lot of short jumps into a and backwards a attacks, if that's what you're referring to
nair into shine, which is short hop, neutral air, fast fall, l-cancel, shine (down b), wave dash out cause you can jump cancel shine, dash dance a little, more nair shines. neutral air into down b then jump canceling out of down b is basically the first thing most foxes learn since it's so safe and good. dair shine for falcos.
On March 19 2014 10:15 Aveng3r wrote: Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
certain characters have spikes and others have meteors. difference being for instance with captain falcon. his down air is a meteor attack but the downside to meteor attacks is that they can be meteor cancelled by jumping or pressing up+b as soon the hit connects. a spike on the other hand for instance marth's down air cannot be meteor cancelled. (spikes are better : )
On March 19 2014 17:08 Click_Decision wrote: if anyone here is dedicated to getting better we have a skype group too for online. feel free to pm me if you're interested.
How good is the Mayflash adapter? I've heard so many varying testimonials it's hard to know which ones to believe.
On March 19 2014 17:08 Click_Decision wrote: if anyone here is dedicated to getting better we have a skype group too for online. feel free to pm me if you're interested.
How good is the Mayflash adapter? I've heard so many varying testimonials it's hard to know which ones to believe.
yeah ive seen isai play on the emulator online pretty often. he usually plays on Tuesdays. 64 has a lot of the techniques melee seems to have minus wave dashing and probably a bunch of other character specific skills that really spice up the game play. but i still enjoy ssb64 quite a bit. was just curious if i can ask 64 related questions too
On March 19 2014 10:15 Aveng3r wrote: Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
certain characters have spikes and others have meteors. difference being for instance with captain falcon. his down air is a meteor attack but the downside to meteor attacks is that they can be meteor cancelled by jumping or pressing up+b as soon the hit connects. a spike on the other hand for instance marth's down air cannot be meteor cancelled. (spikes are better : )
falcon's dair is both. Hit them stomach down it's a meteor. Hit them with the nipples it's a spike
My girlfriend mains dr. Mario and I've been playing around with fox recently. Neither of us are very good but I'm much better than her, what stages favour dr Mario over fox?
I'd like to give her an edge without her knowledge to give her the confidence boost she needs to keep enjoying the game.
On March 20 2014 00:46 YokaY wrote: Is netplay reasonable for practice with friends? Or is it largely impractical?
Is there input lag on dolphin run locally? If I'm going from playing on a crt/gamecube am I going to get annoyed playing on dolphin?
The input lag on dolphin netplay is significant enough that you will definitely feel it coming from live. Even when I play with people closer to me geographically, it's still a different experience. I still like it for fun and for playing with friends who are in different parts of the continent.
Input lag on dolphin locally is, at least from what I've noticed, noticeable but miniscule compared to netplay lag.
On March 20 2014 00:41 Promethelax wrote: My girlfriend mains dr. Mario and I've been playing around with fox recently. Neither of us are very good but I'm much better than her, what stages favour dr Mario over fox?
I'd like to give her an edge without her knowledge to give her the confidence boost she needs to keep enjoying the game.
If you both don't play competitively then competitive knowledge won't really apply. Doc has the edge on Final Destination but only because of chaingrabs.
Don't worry, losing on purpose to your girlfriend in video games is a time honoured tradition, no one will judge you
On March 20 2014 00:46 YokaY wrote: Is netplay reasonable for practice with friends? Or is it largely impractical?
Is there input lag on dolphin run locally? If I'm going from playing on a crt/gamecube am I going to get annoyed playing on dolphin?
The input lag on dolphin netplay is significant enough that you will definitely feel it coming from live. Even when I play with people closer to me geographically, it's still a different experience. I still like it for fun and for playing with friends who are in different parts of the continent.
Input lag on dolphin locally is, at least from what I've noticed, noticeable but miniscule compared to netplay lag.
I'd say input lag on dolphin is worst than lcd/led tvs, and those are bad enough as it is. I would not recommend playing on dolphin until you are either really familiar with the game (in which case you're not gonna have your timings fucked up forever cause you're practicing on it) or completely just for fun. If you're going to practices ATs it's gotta be cube on crt.
On March 20 2014 00:41 Promethelax wrote: My girlfriend mains dr. Mario and I've been playing around with fox recently. Neither of us are very good but I'm much better than her, what stages favour dr Mario over fox?
I'd like to give her an edge without her knowledge to give her the confidence boost she needs to keep enjoying the game.
Hmm, I don't know if there's a good answer to this question because:
1. Stage knowledge is relative to the metagame being played at the highest current level, and factors could be completely different when people are still learning the game (think for example if a fox main needs to ride the wall to be able to sweetspot, BF becomes a counterpick to that fox, even though BF is generally a fine stage for fox).
2. Fox pretty much beats Dr. Mario on every stage.
That said FD is pretty much Doc's best hope against fox. Doc has a chaingrab on fox with up-throw up to maybe 40% or so (not sure) plus generally a great combo game on this stage. Fox can also have a tough time getting around pills with no platforms to work with. A lot of foxes also dislike FoD because the moving platforms mess with their tech skill.
On March 20 2014 00:41 Promethelax wrote: My girlfriend mains dr. Mario and I've been playing around with fox recently. Neither of us are very good but I'm much better than her, what stages favour dr Mario over fox?
I'd like to give her an edge without her knowledge to give her the confidence boost she needs to keep enjoying the game.
Hmm, I don't know if there's a good answer to this question because:
1. Stage knowledge is relative to the metagame being played at the highest current level, and factors could be completely different when people are still learning the game (think for example if a fox main needs to ride the wall to be able to sweetspot, BF becomes a counterpick to that fox, even though BF is generally a fine stage for fox).
2. Fox pretty much beats Dr. Mario on every stage.
That said FD is pretty much Doc's best hope against fox. Doc has a chaingrab on fox with up-throw up to maybe 40% or so (not sure) plus generally a great combo game on this stage. Fox can also have a tough time getting around pills with no platforms to work with. A lot of foxes also dislike FoD because the moving platforms mess with their tech skill.
I'd recommend FoD just cause roll dsmash on doc wrecks on that stage and cape edge guards also do very well cause of moving platforms. And I imagine there's a lot of roll dsmashes when they're playing.
On March 20 2014 00:41 Promethelax wrote: My girlfriend mains dr. Mario and I've been playing around with fox recently. Neither of us are very good but I'm much better than her, what stages favour dr Mario over fox?
I'd like to give her an edge without her knowledge to give her the confidence boost she needs to keep enjoying the game.
more practice is the only factor that matters imo. can she do basic tech skill? if you say you're not very good then honestly any stage that might favor a character would take into account them being able to play the character effectively in the first place ^^
What inputs do people jump cancel upsmash with? (x/y+cstick, controlstick+a, etc.?)
Is "mashing out" from grabs only dependent on button presses (which buttons?) and not analog/c stick? Any other details I should know about this mechanic (like mash rate to get out by certain number of pummels)?
JC usmash is probably easiest with a double up motion on both sticks (control stick + cstrick). Same with usmash out of shield. I know some people claw JC usmash, you can try that too as they say it's more consistent but in my experience way more smashers use double up.
Mashing out is depending on number of inputs. Each direction change in either stick is an input and every button press is an input. With mash outs the safe pummels rule of thumb is 1 per 50%.
On March 19 2014 10:18 Aveng3r wrote: also what is an L cancel?
L cancel is when you hit L right as you land, and it will recover you right away instead of having to get up slowly.
can you spam L as you're landing or do you have to time it right?
for L-cancels you can spam it and it will still work, i sometimes use this technique if i'm using a move like link or ganondorf's dair where the L-cancel timing is drastically different if you hit it compared to a whiff. also if you ever spam an L-cancel like this, be wary of edges because you don't want to edge-cancel into airdodge off a platform.
however for teching, incorrectly pressing L/R will lock you out for 40 frames, so the only way to tech is to time the button press just before hitting the ground/wall/ceiling.
On March 20 2014 12:25 Count9 wrote: JC usmash is probably easiest with a double up motion on both sticks (control stick + cstrick). Same with usmash out of shield. I know some people claw JC usmash, you can try that too as they say it's more consistent but in my experience way more smashers use double up.
Mashing out is depending on number of inputs. Each direction change in either stick is an input and every button press is an input. With mash outs the safe pummels rule of thumb is 1 per 50%.
I remember KK and a few Fox mains said on the Fox boards that claw JC Usmash with y/x+cstick is the most consistent and easiest to pull off, esp. once you get to use it. I def agree as timing it is much easier, but it's up to how comfortable you are. I've seen quite a few players selectively claw a few things, M2K being the most notable hybrid user.
On March 19 2014 10:18 Aveng3r wrote: also what is an L cancel?
L cancel is when you hit L right as you land, and it will recover you right away instead of having to get up slowly.
can you spam L as you're landing or do you have to time it right?
you can spam it but don't click the button down. L-canceling works if you soft press the shoulders but if you hard press it'll count as an attempted tech so you won't be able to tech for some time after
On March 19 2014 10:18 Aveng3r wrote: also what is an L cancel?
L cancel is when you hit L right as you land, and it will recover you right away instead of having to get up slowly.
can you spam L as you're landing or do you have to time it right?
Spamming does work I belive, at least in theory, but the frame window is kinda small already so I don't if you would be able to spam fast enough. I would advise against spamming for L-cancel in general. Learning how to time you L-cancels IS incredibly important.
Also don't use push all the way down until it clicks to L-cancel because you don't need to. Use light press as it doesn't take away your teching window.
On March 19 2014 10:15 Aveng3r wrote: What is wave dash, wave land, and SHFFL? how does one properly execute these maneuvers?
also I really want to know how professionals can execute a recovery attempt after getting spiked with pretty high damage. Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
In NTSC melee, there are 2 kind of spikes. Meteor spikes, and pure spikes. If you press jump right after being spiked, you can perform whats called a meteor cancel, where you negate a large part of the spike, generally enough to recover from. The timing becomes more strict as you get to a higher percent. Ganon, marth, falco, and when you spike with captain falcon's nipple are pure spikes. They cannot be meteor cancelled, so when you get hit by them you need to up b from way below the stage to recover.
Ganon's down-air is a meteor, it's his aerial down-B that's a spike. The Dair is very difficult to survive, though, due to the odd timing due to the long hit-pause and the huge knockback. If you get Dair'd below the ledge, it's all over.
Meteor cancelling not as simple as jumping or Up-Bing as soon as you see yourself get hit by a meteor attack. You have to input it 8 frames after you start falling from the attack, and if you do it too early, you get locked out. You can also get locked out of the meteor cancel if you Up-B'd recently. So, if you get meteored out of your Up-B, you're dead, son. How recently you had to have Up-B'd and how long you're locked out? I forget.
On March 20 2014 00:46 YokaY wrote: Is netplay reasonable for practice with friends? Or is it largely impractical?
Is there input lag on dolphin run locally? If I'm going from playing on a crt/gamecube am I going to get annoyed playing on dolphin?
Netplay is for fun. In my opinion, it's pretty bad for practicing techskill. Input lag will generally be 5 frames or more as distance increases. That's enough for things to feel really off. For instance, I get something like 80-100 ping and use 9-10 frame delay. That much delay means that I get punished for the dumbest things sometimes. It's just something you have to deal with if you want to play online.
Input lag from dolphin will vary depending on your setup. I believe there's ways to figure out the exact number. Google around.
On March 19 2014 10:15 Aveng3r wrote: What is wave dash, wave land, and SHFFL? how does one properly execute these maneuvers?
also I really want to know how professionals can execute a recovery attempt after getting spiked with pretty high damage. Like Ile see captain falcon spike falco multiple times and Falco will somehow stay alive long enough to attempt another recovery. If it would have been me I would have just died the first time. Is there some sequence of buttons that they are hitting really fast, or is their timing just perfect with attempting the up-b recovery?
In NTSC melee, there are 2 kind of spikes. Meteor spikes, and pure spikes. If you press jump right after being spiked, you can perform whats called a meteor cancel, where you negate a large part of the spike, generally enough to recover from. The timing becomes more strict as you get to a higher percent. Ganon, marth, falco, and when you spike with captain falcon's nipple are pure spikes. They cannot be meteor cancelled, so when you get hit by them you need to up b from way below the stage to recover.
Ganon's down-air is a meteor, it's his aerial down-B that's a spike. The Dair is very difficult to survive, though, due to the odd timing due to the long hit-pause and the huge knockback. If you get Dair'd below the ledge, it's all over.
Meteor cancelling not as simple as jumping or Up-Bing as soon as you see yourself get hit by a meteor attack. You have to input it 8 frames after you start falling from the attack, and if you do it too early, you get locked out. You can also get locked out of the meteor cancel if you Up-B'd recently. So, if you get meteored out of your Up-B, you're dead, son. How recently you had to have Up-B'd and how long you're locked out? I forget.
You can survive gannon's dair if you have a decent vertical on your upb, or if you meteor-cancel with jump, but yeah it is hard to do.
On March 20 2014 14:14 Aveng3r wrote: what exactly is the difference between a meteor and a spike?
Meteors can be jump/up B cancelled if timed correctly. Spikes must have the entire hitstun off before you can do anything (unless you hit a wall in which you can tech/wall tech)
On March 20 2014 14:14 Aveng3r wrote: what exactly is the difference between a meteor and a spike?
Meteors can be jump/up B cancelled if timed correctly. Spikes must have the entire hitstun off before you can do anything (unless you hit a wall in which you can tech/wall tech)
see I assumed that a meteor was a spike attack where the character performing the meteor was also shot downward (captain falcons down b in smash 64) where a spike with like DKs over a (smash 64) in that he wasnt shot downward, he just had the potential to spike someone downward at hgih trajectory if they had high damage.
"In Melee, there were two primary differences between meteor smashes and spikes. The main difference of the definition is that meteor smashes can be meteor canceled while spikes cannot, since the game doesn't register them as meteor smashes. The second difference is that all meteor smashes in Melee send opponents straight down or straight up (depends if they're airborne or grounded) while spikes send opponents at a diagonal angle that is downwards on airborne opponents or upwards on grounded opponents. While spikes under the true definition do not exist in Brawl, the meteors that were spikes in Melee send opponents at an diagonal angle still (though the trajectory is not as diagonal as it was in Melee)."
So basically, spikes send you at a slight diagonal angle downward; the game lets you meteor cancel (jump or up-b) if the angle is very close to straight down (a "meteor smash"), but otherwise it thinks you got hit by a normal move, and you have to wait out the hitstun.
So for example, Falco's down-air and Marth's tipper down-air are spikes; if you watch closely, you'll notice they hit you slightly forward as well as down. Captain Falcon's down-air is a meteor at his feet, hitting roughly straight down, but there's actually a spike hitbox of the down-air near his chest (the "nipple spike.")
Falco's down-air and Marth's tipper down-air are spikes
These are good examples, but they only hold completely true in NTSC; in PAL, Marth's dair is a meteor smash, and Falco's dair only spikes for the first half of the duration (if you hit with the delayed hitbox it sends the opponent to the side and a bit upwards).
Do you think we could maybe get a glossary of "melee-scene" terms/shorthands? Maybe something that can be added to the first post, idunno. For context i've only watched the documentary when the announcement was made and Ken's stream yesterday and just started gaining an interest in competitive smash.
Maybe someone can add more/help me out here with the ??? terms.
No John/Johns - making excuses (from what i gathered in the documentary) Being salty - QQ about losses? JV - not sure what it stands for??? but from what i gather it means winning with full stock and taking no hits (0%) Free/so free - sucking/being a newb/being bad??? (heard on streams) 4 stock/3 stock/# stocking someone - amount of lives left when winning the game
Other more 'in-game' terms Neutral - ??? idunno anything about fighting games but its either equal life or a position where you can make the next attack? Tech - technial? techniques? Dair - down air attack? DI - Directional influence
etc.
Perhaps some more experienced people can clean up my list and add more for those of us new to the scene who don't really understanding the lingo used, thanks!
There will be a glossary. A JV is Junior Varsity, and basically means "didn't really count as a lost stock". It applies when you win with 0%. So if you beat someone on your last stock but at 0% damage it's a JV 2 stock. Best anyone can do is JV 5 stock (win set with no damage taken).
Tech is just tech. It's not short for anything. It's when you hit the ground, you can tech, which will make you get up immediately with a few invincibility frames rather than lying on the ground or bouncing.
Neutral is a form of attack, that is you hit A or B without a direction.
On March 21 2014 02:13 joshie0808 wrote: Do you think we could maybe get a glossary of "melee-scene" terms/shorthands? Maybe something that can be added to the first post, idunno. For context i've only watched the documentary when the announcement was made and Ken's stream yesterday and just started gaining an interest in competitive smash.
Maybe someone can add more/help me out here with the ??? terms.
No John/Johns - making excuses (from what i gathered in the documentary) Being salty - QQ about losses? JV - not sure what it stands for??? but from what i gather it means winning with full stock and taking no hits (0%) Free/so free - sucking/being a newb/being bad??? (heard on streams) 4 stock/3 stock/# stocking someone - amount of lives left when winning the game
Other more 'in-game' terms Neutral - ??? idunno anything about fighting games but its either equal life or a position where you can make the next attack? Tech - technial? techniques? Dair - down air attack? DI - Directional influence
etc.
Perhaps some more experienced people can clean up my list and add more for those of us new to the scene who don't really understanding the lingo used, thanks!
Neutral is not holding anything on the stick, like a jab or neutral aerial. tech is what happens when you hit a wall and shield. you can roll or stand up instantly.
On March 21 2014 02:15 tofucake wrote: A JV is Junior Varsity
I was under the impression it's named after JV3X3 (the MLG guy in the documentary) but I could be wrong
On March 21 2014 02:20 YokaY wrote: Neutral is not holding anything on the stick, like a jab or neutral aerial.
That's one definition, but the way he asks for "neutral" instead of "neutral air" makes me think he's talking about when commentators use the word as shorthand for "neutral game". Neutral game is when neither character is in an advantageous position and both are weaving around looking for stage control or openings.
On March 21 2014 02:15 YokaY wrote: Is there a small delay to when you can input things after wavedashing?
I wanna blame my emulator/controller but maybe i'm just remembering wrong.
Is the guide to playing melee online. You might also want a USB Gamecube controller adapter
If you're bad like me and not super hardcore, an X360 controller works surprisingly well as a SSBM controller.
yeah this works surprisingly well. just note that if you intend on getting involved in your local scene at some point (and not necessarily as a top player or anything like that) you're gonna really suck at tourneys without a GC controller
On March 21 2014 02:33 OnceKing wrote: What edgeguard options does Marth have against a Falco using a ledgehop double laser to get up?
If you couldn't get over there fast enough to cover the ledge and falco got invincibility frames wding back closer to the center of the stage and spacing to cover all his options when he tries to get back to the center is your best option. If it's a shitty ledgehop double laser you can crouch under the first laser and dtilt him, but you'd have to count on falco fucking up.
On March 21 2014 03:42 Fazers wrote: Where can I find archives of old school / modern Smash Tournament games? Is there like a Small VOD equivalent of it?
I would recommend reading through the Melee year in reviews found here and then looking up those tournaments on youtube or finding their result threads or video threads on smashboards. Usually by googling "x tournament smashboards results/videos" or something close to that.
The Melee Year in review posts are also a great way to get a feel for the history of smash outside of the smash documentary.
On March 21 2014 02:15 YokaY wrote: Is there a small delay to when you can input things after wavedashing?
I wanna blame my emulator/controller but maybe i'm just remembering wrong.
There's a couple frames of standard landing lag
My follow up question is, is there normally an input buffer when you wavesmash? Or do you just have to time after your landing lag?
The only buffering in melee is out of shield. If you're wavesmashing fast enough that you're concerned about landing lag you should probably just smash someone, since the only reason you wavesmash is to change the range of the smash. If you input it when you're still in the air then nothing will happen. You can smash out of a wavedash any time you're sliding on the ground. If you have an emulator theres a chance that it will have some lag.
Hey! Was wondering if they've developed any sort of reliable means for online play via Dolphin or any other kind of emulator?
I'm a happy owner of two copies of the game, so I'm not trying to break the law or anything like that. Was just wondering, seeing as how Smash seems to be picking up as an eSport again.
On March 21 2014 11:05 AimlessAmoeba wrote: Hey! Was wondering if they've developed any sort of reliable means for online play via Dolphin or any other kind of emulator?
I'm a happy owner of two copies of the game, so I'm not trying to break the law or anything like that. Was just wondering, seeing as how Smash seems to be picking up as an eSport again.
You can do either. If you want to aerial the opposite direction you're moving is, c-stick is definitely easier; I usually do directional aerials with c-stick.
One notable exception: Peach actually often wants to do aerials with direction + Z if she's floating (since you need to keep your thumb on the jump button). Some people like doing nairs out of shield with Z, but I play Samus so it sucks
On March 21 2014 11:57 YokaY wrote: Aerials with c-stick? Or a-button? Or dependent on direction?
I'm having trouble doing things like that sh double forward air with marth if i'm going right...
Short hope double F-air is more of a timing thing and learning how to Fair immediately after the jump. I do aerials depending on how my hand position is at but Iike ]343[ said it's mainly preference. Then again I play Falco so I switch hand positions to waveshine and if I'm in my waveshine grip I'm using c-stick. When I play luigi I exclusively aerial using a-button.
On March 21 2014 10:57 sushiko wrote: Considering buying a GC controller with USB for use on dolphin (https://www.thinkgeek.com/product/1b4c/). Anyone have any experience with this?
I have never seen those being used before but it's for USB so it's hard to say. They could be good but I've never heard of a good third party controller.
On March 21 2014 11:57 YokaY wrote: Aerials with c-stick? Or a-button? Or dependent on direction?
I'm having trouble doing things like that sh double forward air with marth if i'm going right...
C-stick aerials vs. A-button aerials is largely preference, but there are some things that are infinitely easier with c-stick. Running forward with a bair, drifting backward with a fair, fastfalling a sh uair, doing a delayed dair with no fastfall, etc. On the other hand you sometimes want a very fast, instant rising aerial, in which case the A-button being so much closer to X/Y makes all the difference. Get used to both, most people I've talked to use a hybrid.
On March 21 2014 10:57 sushiko wrote: Considering buying a GC controller with USB for use on dolphin (https://www.thinkgeek.com/product/1b4c/). Anyone have any experience with this?
On March 21 2014 02:15 YokaY wrote: Is there a small delay to when you can input things after wavedashing?
I wanna blame my emulator/controller but maybe i'm just remembering wrong.
There's a couple frames of standard landing lag
My follow up question is, is there normally an input buffer when you wavesmash? Or do you just have to time after your landing lag?
there's no buffer for most inputs after a wavedash (i think crouching, shielding, walking and turnaround are the only inputs that will buffer during LandFallSpecial), so you have to just learn the timing in order to act asap after the lag is over. luckily, this is the same for every character, so it can be reduced to muscle memory rather than any sort of visual timing: landing during or after an airdodge will always yield 10 frames of unactionable lag.
landing after or during other moves that cause LandFallSpecial (such as most Up+Bs and some Forward+Bs) will yield varying amounts of lag depending on the move. landing during other attack animations will yield varying amounts of lag depending on the move. and landing while neutral will yield varying amounts of lag depending on the character (though it's usually 4 frames).
How does character picking in tournaments work? Like if someone tries to counterpick you can you just change characters to avoid it or is only one person allowed to change?
I have been having trouble SHUFFling I just started and I'm playing Falco. Right now I am trying to use the thumstick for short hops and a for aerials (I'm also having a lot of trouble just short hopping while fighting). Is this what I should be practicing or should I use x/y and c stick?
On March 21 2014 12:01 ]343[ wrote: You can do either. If you want to aerial the opposite direction you're moving is, c-stick is definitely easier; I usually do directional aerials with c-stick.
One notable exception: Peach actually often wants to do aerials with direction + Z if she's floating (since you need to keep your thumb on the jump button). Some people like doing nairs out of shield with Z, but I play Samus so it sucks
I highly suggest using a claw grip with Peach. There are a few variations of these grips, but the most popular is using your right index finger to jump with Y, and using your middle finger on Z. This means that floating, holding floats, and doing aerials while moving are incredibly easy, as you can have simultaneous access to your left stick, jump button, and C-stick. There are two main downsides that this grip has. The first is that wavedashing is weird/harder, as it puts a lot more pressure on your left index finger. This isn't a huge concern with Peach, who doesn't have a great wavedash, and get's easier with some practice. Wavedashing out-of-shield also can be a bit tricky, but I just use the analog portion of the trigger to shield, then click down fully after I jump OOS to wavedash. Again, some practice makes this easier. The other downside is that grabbing is less natural with your middle finger, and jump-cancelled grabs are harder. Shield grabbing is obviously not a concern. I tend to just switch back to a normal grip when I expect to grab (e.g. beginning of a chain-grab).
On March 22 2014 11:59 Ethoex wrote: I have been having trouble SHUFFling I just started and I'm playing Falco. Right now I am trying to use the thumstick for short hops and a for aerials (I'm also having a lot of trouble just short hopping while fighting). Is this what I should be practicing or should I use x/y and c stick?
Don't try to use the stick for jumping. It's pretty difficult and not recommended for general play. It's usually best to use Y/X for jumping and C-stick for directional aerials.
On March 22 2014 12:20 theonemephisto wrote: Don't try to use the stick for jumping. It's pretty difficult and not recommended for general play. It's usually best to use Y/X for jumping and C-stick for directional aerials.
to elaborate on this:
the main reason you'll see most people recommend X/Y for jumping and C-Stick for aerials is so that you separate your movement totally from your other action/attack inputs. what i mean is, if you use this control scheme, your left thumb is free to control your ground and aerial movement in any way you choose, while your right thumb handles jumping and attack selection. this lets you do things such as dash forward, jump backward, and forward-air while continuing to drift backwards, for instance.
also, re: short hopping, if you are using X/Y to jump, you can slide your thumb off of the very edge of the button (so that your thumb slips off and presses into the main controller body). this makes sure that no matter how hard you press the button, you will necessarily release it quickly enough to short hop successfully. this method also starts your thumb moving away from the button array and towards the C-Stick, making quick aerials a little bit easier to execute.
On March 23 2014 02:05 Aveng3r wrote: what is it about those maps that make them suitable for tournament play? are other maps even allowed?
They're considered at least somewhat balanced, and are aimed at reducing random variation and players losing to things besides skill. Obviously it's not perfect as most smash stages aren't exactly tailored towards less randomness, but there you go. Notice aside from FD and Pokemon Stadium the others are all three-platform stages of varying platform size, height, stage size, blast zone heights, etc.
Other maps used to be allowed - Peach's Castle, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, Pokefloats (!), Mute City, Brinstar, and Kongo Jungle 64 used to all be legal but were banned for one reason or another. Additionally, KJ64 is still legal in doubles while Fountain of Dreams is banned.
it's not really codified anywhere, but having watched the stage list change over the years and been apart of alot of the debates, i'd pretty much describe it like this:
competition is supposed to test a core skillset and that skillset consists of movement-based neutral game, combo/escape, and edgeguard/recovery. and stage features that marginalize or interfere with those core skills or otherwise alter the gameplay in a way that match outcome isn't determined majorly by those core skills are undesirable.
so walk-off blastlines (see: Flatzone, Mushroom Kingdom 1 or 2) pretty much kill edgeguard/recovery. so does the ability to survive infinitely by teching on Hyrule Temple. lack of ledges and the ability to recover through the main stage floor dramatically change edgeguard/recovery in a way that creates almost a new required skill that isn't represented in the rest of the stages (see: Mute City. the river in Jungle Japes also kind of does this). moving camera stages dramatically alter and kind of destroy the idea of a movement-based neutral game; in addition, players have to prioritize dealing with the stage to avoid SDing over comboing or edgeguarding (see: Rainbow Cruise, PokéFloats). that second bit is also the problem with powerful stage hazards (like the acid on Brinstar, which also ruins the stage topography).
but you also want fairness in a set, so there shouldn't be super high variance in expected matchup results over a bo3 or bo5 based on counterpick stages. so you get rid of stages with excessively close (Green Greens, Onett) or inconsistent (Venom) blastlines. you also have to deal with random stage hazards (like bomb blocks or exploding apples on Green Greens)—and especially exploitable ones (like Banzai Bill on Princess Peach's Castle), so you reduce the amount of flukey cheesy wins.
YI64 and KJ64 are banned mostly because of their prohibitive platform heights (and the far clouds on YI64, which some characters can't even reach or make it back from), which causes a pretty big imbalance between camp and approach, depending on a character's movement speed and jump height. KJ64 also has a pretty common glitch where you can airdodge down through the stage while trying to wavedash at certain seams.
once you've applied this filter, you end up with Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Final Destination, Fountain of Dreams, Pokémon Stadium, and Yoshi's Story.
Has anyone ever considered banning Pokemon Stadium completely? It is already only a counterpick and it seems to me (correct me, if I'm wrong) that the stage is most often used as a counterpick for foxes. With Fox getting more and more dominant in the current meta, wouldn't it be good, if some of his matchup got slightly worse? Or would there be some major drawbacks for the balance of other matchups without fox? It is also one of the legal stages, where randomness has the biggest influence.
It's been talked about a lot, especially counter picking in general (along the lines of if a stage isn't fair for the first game why is it fair for the second game and onwards?)
Fox has never been dominant though, ever. The only national that fox has ever won was by mango and m2k pretty much makes sure no foxes take titles. Poke stadium doesn't have that much randomness, you always see which stage is next with plenty of time to adjust though some maps are pretty terrible (mountain/fire) where it's way safer to camp than approach.
The general consensus right now is that it's not worse than FD for spacies vs marth/peach or DL for peach/puff and it's quite a balanced stage for a lot of other match ups (vs floaties the low ceiling is quite good even though there's a lot of room). It's also not that good for spacies, even though it's quite strong. At the end of the day, I think most smashers just don't want to play battlefield only.
Maybe Fox was never dominant and isn't really dominant today either, but with Hax switching to Fox, Armada maybe switching to fox (and the whole 20XX stuff...), it could happen, that fox gets that dominant in the future. As it stands, Fox doesn't have a single negative MU and has 2 good counterpicks vs. many characters (e.g. sheiks will most likely ban FD vs fox, marths ban DL, so they have to play on Pokemon, if I'm not mistaken). Banning Pokemon would be one of the only ways for the community to stop this trend, if it continues.
I only said this can be a countermeasure, if Fox continues to get stronger in the metagame. Currently Fox isn't dominant enough to justify the ban, i agree, but there are signs, which indicate, that Fox might be at this point in the near future.
Marth was dominant in 2005. Did anyone vote to ban Yoshi's Story back then? There are legitimate reasons for wanting Pokemon Stadium banned but "i don't want to deal with good characters" isn't really one of them
On March 22 2014 12:20 theonemephisto wrote: Don't try to use the stick for jumping. It's pretty difficult and not recommended for general play. It's usually best to use Y/X for jumping and C-stick for directional aerials.
to elaborate on this:
the main reason you'll see most people recommend X/Y for jumping and C-Stick for aerials is so that you separate your movement totally from your other action/attack inputs. what i mean is, if you use this control scheme, your left thumb is free to control your ground and aerial movement in any way you choose, while your right thumb handles jumping and attack selection. this lets you do things such as dash forward, jump backward, and forward-air while continuing to drift backwards, for instance.
also, re: short hopping, if you are using X/Y to jump, you can slide your thumb off of the very edge of the button (so that your thumb slips off and presses into the main controller body). this makes sure that no matter how hard you press the button, you will necessarily release it quickly enough to short hop successfully. this method also starts your thumb moving away from the button array and towards the C-Stick, making quick aerials a little bit easier to execute.
On March 23 2014 04:00 NoHardFeelings wrote: Maybe Fox was never dominant and isn't really dominant today either, but with Hax switching to Fox, Armada maybe switching to fox (and the whole 20XX stuff...), it could happen, that fox gets that dominant in the future. As it stands, Fox doesn't have a single negative MU and has 2 good counterpicks vs. many characters (e.g. sheiks will most likely ban FD vs fox, marths ban DL, so they have to play on Pokemon, if I'm not mistaken). Banning Pokemon would be one of the only ways for the community to stop this trend, if it continues.
What? Fox has always underperformed at the highest level. Hax is only playing Fox against high tiers. AR isn't switching to a Fox main at all. 20XX wasn't even suppose to be, but turned into, a Fox circlejerk. Only recently has Fox had any resemblance of success. Fox has always been immensely inconsistent, even Mango has to switch back to Falco a lot now.
I've been playing for years but just started playing competitively. Is using both L and R a good thing in competitive play? I've used only L for shielding and L-cancelling and I've never used R for anything. Would it be helpful to change this?
On March 23 2014 12:32 jbui wrote: Are the Z button and C-stick usually used a lot?
yes
What for specifically? From what I've seen it looks like C-stick for smashing and DI, not sure what Z is for (grab alternative for L+A?)
Z button can also be used as an alternate A button when in the air. I know some people do it, otherwise it is just for grabs since when you jump cancel grab it's easier to X/Y+Z instead of X/Y + L+A.
On March 23 2014 13:09 Jcranberries wrote: I've been playing for years but just started playing competitively. Is using both L and R a good thing in competitive play? I've used only L for shielding and L-cancelling and I've never used R for anything. Would it be helpful to change this?
Yes you should be using both. In terms of changing it you don't need to, but it's easier to wavedash out of of shield if you use both.
That doesn't mean you can't main pikachu and do well with him. Just look at axe. There's a person at my locals who also has a sick pikachu and tops frequently
On March 23 2014 12:32 jbui wrote: Are the Z button and C-stick usually used a lot?
C stick is a must imo for essentially all non-charged ground smashes... there is no reason to not use it, and imo makes crouch cancel smash attacks much easier. I also use C for air attacks when I don't want to do other things (fast fall on down airs, avoiding jumping after going down a platform and up uair'ing, bair with jiggs while going forwards, etc etc)
I use Z for lots of grabs and I also use it to L-cancel, it's easier for me imo then L/R
On March 23 2014 12:32 jbui wrote: Are the Z button and C-stick usually used a lot?
Z is very important for jump cancel grabs. For example, wave dash forward -> jump -> z (grab before you leave the ground). This speeds up your grabs considerably.
C stick is useful for quick smashing. You can c stick smashes quicker than you can press the buttons manually. This can also be used for aerials, although not as necessary.
On March 23 2014 12:32 jbui wrote: Are the Z button and C-stick usually used a lot?
Z is very important for jump cancel grabs. For example, wave dash forward -> jump -> z (grab before you leave the ground). This speeds up your grabs considerably.
C stick is useful for quick smashing. You can c stick smashes quicker than you can press the buttons manually. This can also be used for aerials, although not as necessary.
You don't need to jc a grab from wavedash. It's for when you're running.
On March 21 2014 02:20 YokaY wrote: Neutral is not holding anything on the stick, like a jab or neutral aerial.
That's one definition, but the way he asks for "neutral" instead of "neutral air" makes me think he's talking about when commentators use the word as shorthand for "neutral game". Neutral game is when neither character is in an advantageous position and both are weaving around looking for stage control or openings.
Is the guide to playing melee online. You might also want a USB Gamecube controller adapter
If you're bad like me and not super hardcore, an X360 controller works surprisingly well as a SSBM controller.
yeah this works surprisingly well. just note that if you intend on getting involved in your local scene at some point (and not necessarily as a top player or anything like that) you're gonna really suck at tourneys without a GC controller
In theory, if there's an adapter for x360>gc port, isnt he is allowed to use this as a controller? At least thats what I think, I read somewhere that you could even use the DK bongos to play at a tourney if you wanted to lol. Not sure if this is true though.
I would consider Dr. Pee as the best player now after winning the last major he went to, Apex 2014. This is actually up for contention as Mew2King and Mango are pretty close as well. Also with Armada coming out of retirement it's hard to say as we have yet to see him play singles.
The top 5 most people will agree with are: Dr PP, M2K, Mango, Armada , and Hungrybox (although the order is normally a topic of heavy discussion).
Dr. PeePee had a great tournament run through the top players at Apex, but i'd say he's still a darkhorse for that #1 spot, since he's never quite been there before; he's gotta prove it at MLG and/or EVO.
Do you think it could be said that hungrybox and armada are slightly below mango pp and m2k now? I guess with armada apparently practicing again and coming out of retirement maybe not.
Is jump cancelling faster frame wise then dash cancelling? I've gotten super used to dash cancelling -> smash, but if jump cancelling is faster then I'd rather make that a habit.
On March 25 2014 17:31 bo1b wrote: Do you think it could be said that hungrybox and armada are slightly below mango pp and m2k now? I guess with armada apparently practicing again and coming out of retirement maybe not.
Is jump cancelling faster frame wise then dash cancelling? I've gotten super used to dash cancelling -> smash, but if jump cancelling is faster then I'd rather make that a habit.
How are you "dash cancelling"? I thought the only way to dash cancel was by jumping or crouching. I'm pretty sure with crouching you lose a few frames making jump canceling the faster method, but crouch canceling leads to a slide.
On March 25 2014 17:31 bo1b wrote: Do you think it could be said that hungrybox and armada are slightly below mango pp and m2k now? I guess with armada apparently practicing again and coming out of retirement maybe not.
Is jump cancelling faster frame wise then dash cancelling? I've gotten super used to dash cancelling -> smash, but if jump cancelling is faster then I'd rather make that a habit.
IMO
1 Mango 2 M2K 3 HBox 4 PeePee
Who knows with armada back into it now, I could see him being better than m2k
On March 26 2014 00:28 TOCHMY wrote: Dunno if this question fits in here since it's not really simple but here goes:
I'm moving to Kyoto this October. Does anyone know any SSBM/PM communities in that area? Websites/facebook/etc.
I'd be very surprised if there wasn't. I don't know personally, but I do know the New England FB group has been very active, so I'd imagine it's similar elsewhere.
On March 26 2014 00:28 TOCHMY wrote: Dunno if this question fits in here since it's not really simple but here goes:
I'm moving to Kyoto this October. Does anyone know any SSBM/PM communities in that area? Websites/facebook/etc.
I'd be very surprised if there wasn't. I don't know personally, but I do know the New England FB group has been very active, so I'd imagine it's similar elsewhere.
On March 25 2014 17:31 bo1b wrote: Do you think it could be said that hungrybox and armada are slightly below mango pp and m2k now? I guess with armada apparently practicing again and coming out of retirement maybe not.
Is jump cancelling faster frame wise then dash cancelling? I've gotten super used to dash cancelling -> smash, but if jump cancelling is faster then I'd rather make that a habit.
IMO
1 Mango 2 M2K 3 HBox 4 PeePee
Who knows with armada back into it now, I could see him being better than m2k
There's no way Hbox is higher than PP right now. Really Hbox has been getting owned by the others since around October 2013. I think he's gone (in games) 0-5 vs. Mango, 4-11 or something absurd vs. M2K, 1-6 vs. PP. Meanwhile PP's last sets with all three of those players were either 3-0 or 3-1.
On March 25 2014 17:31 bo1b wrote: Do you think it could be said that hungrybox and armada are slightly below mango pp and m2k now? I guess with armada apparently practicing again and coming out of retirement maybe not.
Is jump cancelling faster frame wise then dash cancelling? I've gotten super used to dash cancelling -> smash, but if jump cancelling is faster then I'd rather make that a habit.
How are you "dash cancelling"? I thought the only way to dash cancel was by jumping or crouching. I'm pretty sure with crouching you lose a few frames making jump canceling the faster method, but crouch canceling leads to a slide.
On March 26 2014 00:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: At RoM7, M2K, in the impromptu interview after the scene, said he considered himself and Mango to be the best, and Hungrybox is a tier below them.
well, hbox is a tier below them, he has a terrible record vs anyone else in top 5, but he's definitely still top 5 cause he taps every single other person on the planet. (yeah, yeah, there's tons of people who "almost" beat hungrybox, I know, doesn't count)
for anyone wondering, these are the set counts (in tournament) between the American top 4 players since 2012. it doesn't give a chronology, really, but it's still all recent enough to draw some broad conclusions from:
Mango vs PP: 5-4 Mango vs M2K: 8-9 Mango vs Hbox: 11-2 PP vs Mango: 4-5 PP vs M2K: 8-4 PP vs Hbox: 5-3 M2K vs Mango: 9-8 M2K vs PP: 4-8 M2K vs Hbox: 7-3 Hbox vs Mango: 2-11 Hbox vs PP: 3-5 Hbox vs M2K: 3-7
Mango vs other three: 24-15 M2K vs other three: 20-19 PP vs other three: 17-12 Hbox vs other three: 8-23
Simple question about Captain Falcon. Good players look a lot faster than me when I compare their falcon to mine, which isn't true with my puff or marth. Are you supposed to fastfall everything with him? I might record something later tonight to illustrate my play vs someone like Darkrain or Lord.
The only important thing to note is that M2K has been performing much better recently than 2012/most of 2013.
I'm comfortable putting Mango and M2K as being the top 2, with PP slightly below, and Hbox a bit below that.
PP mainly has a lack of consistent big wins, and he really needs a couple more of those to be place don the same level as Mango and M2K I think. The moment those come, he can be elevated to the top of the top imo imo.
On March 26 2014 01:23 Phyanketto wrote: Simple question about Captain Falcon. Good players look a lot faster than me when I compare their falcon to mine, which isn't true with my puff or marth. Are you supposed to fastfall everything with him? I might record something later tonight to illustrate my play vs someone like Darkrain or Lord.
speeding Captain Falcon up is really a combination of just about every execution optimization there is. it's all about crispness. the top priorities are fast-falling everything, l-canceling everything, and always acting on the first possible frame after any action.
there are also some nuances to using his aerials, though. for instance, controlling your aerial drift (i.e. full forward sweeping aerials, or fadeaway aerials or run -> stationary aerials) while still nailing the fastfall timing will indirectly help your Falcon look and be faster. another example is the actual aerial timings: you mostly look at instant aerials (started on the first airborne frame while rising during a short hop) vs. late aerials (on the way down while fastfalling). instant aerials come out faster, obviously, which is a good marker of speed, and instant perfectly fastfalled nairs will get you those super fast super low nairs in the neutral game that you see from Hax, S2J and Scar. however, there are situations where late aerials will speed up your actual links. for instance, when using u-air in a combo, if you do it late, you get to hit->l-cancel->followup all in one fluid series, rather than hit->wait for landfall->l-cancel->followup(?).
i haven't seen you play, obviously, but in my experience the thing that people struggle most with tends to be fastfalling perfectly. you want to get your fastfalls really crisp whether you're empty short hopping, fulljumping something, whether you hit or don't, whether you hit someone's shield or their body, regardless of when during the attack animation you hit. since there's a lot of variables that can affect this timing, it takes a lot of practice and attention.
On March 26 2014 01:23 Phyanketto wrote: Simple question about Captain Falcon. Good players look a lot faster than me when I compare their falcon to mine, which isn't true with my puff or marth. Are you supposed to fastfall everything with him? I might record something later tonight to illustrate my play vs someone like Darkrain or Lord.
Apart from everything txk said, this is also because of the characters. Marth and especially Puff are not super fast characters (though you should also notice a marked difference in fluidity in comparing yourself to pro Marths), so the technical differences in movement and overall speed are not as pronounced. When you pick Falcon or spacies the different levels of mechanical skill become really obvious compared to the pros. Fastfalling is a very important aspect of this, but it's very likely there are tons of other small optimizations as well. Of course we'd need to see a video of your Falcon to be certain but I would guess this is the case.
I was going to post this in the Tournament/LR thread, but I think it fits better here.
Does anyone have some playlists or Twitch vods for some more Melee tournaments? The only recent one I've watched was the Next Episode that was on because of the TL Calendar, and craving more.
Any suggestions to sate me until the next live tournament?
On March 26 2014 07:26 Shiverwarp wrote: I was going to post this in the Tournament/LR thread, but I think it fits better here.
Does anyone have some playlists or Twitch vods for some more Melee tournaments? The only recent one I've watched was the Next Episode that was on because of the TL Calendar, and craving more.
Any suggestions to sate me until the next live tournament?
The main thing to do about VoDs is just go to any major smash streamer and go through their VoDs. In the titles of most tournament streams, they'll post who went to the tournament. If you're looking for certain matchups or players use VGBC's /Clash Tournaments youtube channel and the search function and you'll easily be able to study any player considering the availability the recent streamers have been making them.
On the topic of the top 5 DrPP has actually been playing really badly against Hungrybox pre Apex (and a minor tournament before that in 2013) see Big House 3 for one example. It's hard to say since Mango and Armada are both making their comebacks and DrPP hasn't been seen at enough majors for people to say he's consistent (much like Leffen getting top 4 at Apex, just because you do well in one tournament doesn't speak for how well you'll do at the rest of them).
The reason why DrPP/Armada/Mango are a huge tossup is because they rarely go to minor tournaments anymore compared to M2K and Hungrybox have become the norm in getting top 1/2 in the tournaments that they go to with M2K normally taking the tournaments. So honestly I don't think people should be making speculations on who is the top (yes I'm a hypocrite since I posted my personal list but it's not concrete) player right now as there isn't that much to talk about outside of Apex and it would be best left for the MLG and pre EVO events to come.
You can look at the following twitch channels' archives (I know I'm missing a ton, but... oh well)
vgbootcamp (GIMR travels around all over the USA/Canada and broadcasts for lots of large tournaments, including NSA2 this coming weekend, which I'll be attending ) clashtournaments (mostly based in NY I think, but has some national tournaments too) meleeitonme (has lots of talk-show style things featuring top players) smashstudios (Georgia) ceogaming (Florida) saltyplayground (Europe) leveluplive (Southern California) nemelee (New England) abcoolr (Bahamas) (I haven't actually seen any of these, but I noticed he has lots of videos) zodiacsmash (might have to look carefully through past broadcasts, since this guy also does lots of speedruns)
Players: KageTheWarrior, MacDSmash, LiquidKen, PikaChad, and IrregularJinny stream somewhat often
Youtube: In addition to some of the big Twitch streams (which have the same username), there are: MeleePacWest, TeamSpooky, azprojectmelee, etc. You can probably also google the tournaments that are listed in the posts here (recent tournaments) and here (historical large tournaments).
Chillin is on Twitch and Youtube as chillindude2. His stuff is fantastic. The last few days he's done Ironmans with Chu and Azen, and gone through Mango v Dr. PeePee at Apex and done frame-by-frame analysis.
On March 26 2014 01:19 teeeckskay wrote: for anyone wondering, these are the set counts (in tournament) between the American top 4 players since 2012. it doesn't give a chronology, really, but it's still all recent enough to draw some broad conclusions from:
Mango vs PP: 5-4 Mango vs M2K: 8-9 Mango vs Hbox: 11-2 PP vs Mango: 4-5 PP vs M2K: 8-4 PP vs Hbox: 5-3 M2K vs Mango: 9-8 M2K vs PP: 4-8 M2K vs Hbox: 7-3 Hbox vs Mango: 2-11 Hbox vs PP: 3-5 Hbox vs M2K: 3-7
Mango vs other three: 24-15 M2K vs other three: 20-19 PP vs other three: 17-12 Hbox vs other three: 8-23
Wow thank you so much for this. So interesting to see the full counts. Hbox is probably the one who loses to randoms the least but definitely loses to the other top players the most.
I think right now,
1) Mango 2) Dr PP 3) m2k 4) Armada 5) Hbox 6) Leffen
But I'm a Mango fanboy and you never really know what you're gonna get with him lol
When you're L-canceling, do you press L right after the move or right before you land?
Also, what's the best way to consistently short hop and wave dash? Right now I'm doing X+R for the wave dash but I can't get the timing down. For the short hop I'm flicking the control stick...is this the right way to do it?
On March 26 2014 13:15 NapkinBox wrote: Is there a list of the best players for each character?
This is a super common thread everywhere but what the hell let's do it again here on TL. These are modern (maybe up to around 2012 for some of the older ones) players that you should look for VODs for:
Fox: Mango, Mew2King, Leffen, Colbol, Lucky, Unknown522, Fiction, Hax, Silent Wolf, Lovage, Zoler , Javi Falco: Mango, Dr. PP, Westballz, StricNYN3/Stric9, Zhu, Th0rn Marth: Mew2King, Dr. PP, PewpewU, The Moon, Ice Sheik: Mew2King, Kirbykaze, Ice, Amsah Peach: Armada, MacD, Vwins, Bladewise Puff: Hungrybox, Darc, s0ft, Mango Falcon: Hax, S2J, Gahtzu, Lord, Scar, Gucci, Jeapie SilentSpectre, Darkrain ---- Ice Climbers: Wobbles, Fly Amanita, Chudat, Nintendude Dr. Mario: Shroomed Pikachu: Axe Samus: Plup, HugS, Darrell Ganondorf: Kage Luigi: Abate, Vudujin, Eddy Mexico, Blea Gelo Mario: Mango, A Rookie Yoshi: aMSa, V3ctorman, Leffen (dunno if there are many vids of this) ---- The other characters don't really matter because nobody places high with them but some of note I guess if you're into that low tier life:
Young Link - Armada Ness - Hungrybox, Mofo Link - Sixx, J666 Zelda - Cosmo Mewtwo - Taj, Mew2King Bowser - DJ Nintendo
The others don't really have any notable mains who are actually good, and someone like M2K could probably use them and do better than the best true main. Someone correct me if I'm wrong~
On March 26 2014 14:13 imBLIND wrote: When you're L-canceling, do you press L right after the move or right before you land?
Also, what's the best way to consistently short hop and wave dash? Right now I'm doing X+R for the wave dash but I can't get the timing down. For the short hop I'm flicking the control stick...is this the right way to do it?
right before you land, since when you do the move is dependent on what you're trying to do (shield pressure vs. catching OOS options, for example)
short hop (and all jumps in general) should be with x/y. you can do it with control stick but that is generally agreed upon to be a terrible idea. X+R for wavedash is fine (it's what i do) but if you're playing Fox a lot of people find it easier to do his techs with Y jump so you may want to get used to that before you develop habits for X
For Luigi Vist has quite a lot of Luigi videos since he frequents Xanadu and I've learned a lot from him. Axe is also another really good Young Link player
Low tiers not listed by KyuuKyuu
Roy: Sethlon and M2K Game and Watch: Qerb Donkey Kong: Green Ranger Pichu: Liquid'KDJ/M2K/Unknown Kirby - Triple R
Chu's Kirby is legit too. And Chillin, while not a great Fox player relative to M2K or Mango or whoever, streams a lot and has a YouTube, seems to do a lot of analysis and is better than you.
I read on the smashforums that rolling out of shield is a bad habit noobies have (me included) because it's easy to predict and punish. I tried not to roll yesterday night when I played with a few friends (I play cpt falcon and this roll discussion was brought up with falcon in mind) but I felt that I have a hard time escaping shield pressure and whatnot without rolling.
So what tips do you have to get out of this rolling habit? I guess I can jump out of shield but I'm such a baddie that it doesn't come naturally (yet).
I was watching m2k play peach at some tournament recently, and in the few matches he played he looked better then pretty much every peach I've seen not named armada. Thats probably true though of every character
On March 26 2014 18:16 TOCHMY wrote: I read on the smashforums that rolling out of shield is a bad habit noobies have (me included) because it's easy to predict and punish. I tried not to roll yesterday night when I played with a few friends (I play cpt falcon and this roll discussion was brought up with falcon in mind) but I felt that I have a hard time escaping shield pressure and whatnot without rolling.
So what tips do you have to get out of this rolling habit? I guess I can jump out of shield but I'm such a baddie that it doesn't come naturally (yet).
It depends on your characters
Some characters like fox have a million OOS option WD, SH (any aerial), shine (lol), grab, FH aerials
Even without fastfalling, with a character like shiek you have nair out of shield, all WD tilts, grabs
Some characters have terrible OOS options, usually low tiers lol
In order of how you learn - first you learn to shield-grab. Then generally most people learn to jump OOS (though it's not that strong) - and then generally after a few months the practicse starts to kick in and you can start doing things like shffling out of shield and doing instant-aerials (nair OOS). this usually comes around the same time as being able to feel good about WDing OOS to space (especially against smash attacks)
And then when you get even better, you realise that OOS options still kinda suck (especially shiek vs fox) and you're better off not being in a position where you have to shield in the first place
And then you get EVEN better, and learn that god damned isai angle or w/e it is to shielddrop instantly on command and then suddenly shielding on platforms becomes really good because you can instant counter with any aerial lol
edit: ok OOS options don't suck, it's more like that shielding in shiek vs fox is just a terrible idea once you start playing vs people who know how to pressure shields and you realise that their entire gameplan is to get you to shield in the first place because from there pretty much everything they do is a win
On March 26 2014 18:16 TOCHMY wrote: I read on the smashforums that rolling out of shield is a bad habit noobies have (me included) because it's easy to predict and punish. I tried not to roll yesterday night when I played with a few friends (I play cpt falcon and this roll discussion was brought up with falcon in mind) but I felt that I have a hard time escaping shield pressure and whatnot without rolling.
So what tips do you have to get out of this rolling habit? I guess I can jump out of shield but I'm such a baddie that it doesn't come naturally (yet).
Against crappy shield pressure (pretty much anyone who doesn't make it out of pools, depending on your scene) you can just shieldgrab it lol but it's not the best habit to get into. Learn to jump out of shield because jumping frees up all your other options - you can SH aerial, insta-rising-aerial (Sheik, Falcon), up smash, up B, shine, and wavedash out of shield all because of jumping.
^ that being said, depending on the type of pressure, rolling might be your best/only option. so if you find yourself in a longer block-string eating away at your shield that you're not sure you can challenge with "good" out-of-shield options, just hold the C-Stick left/right to buffer Roll as soon as there's a gap in shieldstun.
also, probably the most important aspect of dealing with shield pressure is acting as soon as you're out of shieldstun, which is something a lot of players are bad at. so practice practice practice, because a pretty common good-player playstyle is to just bully or bait you into shield and then punish you.
I know getting out of the habit of rolling is a high priority for new players, but honestly if your friends don't know how to space/punish rolls then just keep rolling until you can wd oos consistently, then replace most of your rolls with wd oos since it's often a better option against decent players and up. Attacks oos or even jump oos are often more punishable than a wd back oos at most spacings. That said rolls are not inherently bad, everyone use them, I roll to reset neutral position and need to turn around but is too close to dash dance safely.
yea, i wouldn't say go crazy about eliminating rolls after block. but rolling in neutral is a really awful habit that most new-ish players have, and i think it's probably worth it to totally weed that out of your game (even if they go unpunished) until you reach a certain level and can start thinking about reincorporating it.
the situations in high level play where you want to roll and you're not being hammered with blockstring are extremely rare, and most of the time there will be other (usually movement) ways to accomplish what you want. and it's better to learn those things and depend on those things in general, saving rolling for the rare emergency or genius uses as they crop up. being too light to roll gives your opponent the ability to bait it out of you, and rolling is one of the most punishable things you can do.
but otherwise, i agree with Count9 re: replacing roll oos with WD oos when you can and not being overzealous about trying not to roll after blocking an attack. though, definitely experiment with other oos options, like aerials and grabbing also, because those are direct punishes, and it's handy to be able to recognize situations where you can get them—which comes from experimenting.
On March 27 2014 09:40 DW-Unrec wrote: why aren't people playing the lastest smash bros game?
You could refer to the opinions that I posted in the thread that I started if you wish, but the TLDR is
The games are too different with SSBB being a slower game and removing a lot of mechanics that were in SSBM that people loved, as in all of the advanced techniques. SSBB is more campy and slow and has random tripping as well.
Rolling out of shield pressure is actually a pretty good option a lot of the time. Just don't use it as a movement option. Also, some characters rolls are better than others.
The entire dolphin community is pretty active as a whole, but that might not be the biggest problem. You would likely need to find people close to your location and with decent internet because connecting to other states/countries can lead to quite laggy netplay.
Is there a glossary somewhere for the terms? I love super smash bros. but my lack of understanding of the lingo is really holding me back. Someone please help.
I guess I'll make one right now if anybody has any terms they want me to edit in I'll edit it in.
Attacks - (F-air , Dsmash , Utilt, Nair etc) - F = Forwards , D = Down , U = Up , N= Neutral. Air means in the air, tilt means on the ground you slightly slant your control stick in that direction but not all the way (or else you'll do a smash). Smash is the attacks you do with your C-stick or when you hit your control stick the furthest it can go and A at the same time.
Airgrab : When an item is thrown at you (namely Peach/Links in competitive play) pressing Z will grab the item. It is easier to airdodge and grab while doing it but it's better to learn not to rely on air dodging.
Blastline: Areas on the map where when you pass it your character loses a stock.
Character Counter (known as hard/soft counters): In all fighting games most characters have an easier time against another character. Picking a character based on them doing better than the character you are currently using is called a counter. Hard counters mean that your character is really good against them, usually like a 70:30 matchup. Soft counters are usually less extreme such as 60:40 matchups or even 55:45 matchups.
Chain grabbing - The act of grabbing and regrabbing multiple times in a way that your opponent cannot escape.
Counterpick: The act of picking a stage/character after losing normally to have an advantage.
Dashdancing: The acting of dashing left and right during the dash animation finishes so that your character has no lag when turning around
Ditto's (aka Mirror matches) : A match consisting of two of the same characters
Edge-guard: The act of stopping your opponent from coming back to the stage/ledge.
Edgehog: Grabbing the edge while your opponent is recovering so that they cannot grab it themselves usually leading to a kill.
Fast-fall: Pressing down the control stick while at the peak or when your character is already falling from a jump to make your character fall faster.
Free/so free - Meant to denote that a match/player is easy to beat usually meant to insult a player
Friendly: A match that is just mainly for practice i.e. not a serious/tournament match
Gimp: A kill at a low percent (certain moves are good at gimping like Fox's Shine). Normally happens after a character is sent off of stage early and then is hit with a large or set knock back move.
Hitbox: The area of an attack that is able to damage your opponent
Johns: An excuse for why you lost/played badly
JV- Winning with a new stock and taking no hits (0%)
Knockback: This refers to how far a character is pushed back/away from your character by an attack you use.
L-canceling: Usage of the L/R/Z button to cancel the landing frames of a aerial attack (that isn't performed with the B button)
Lag: Downtime after performing a move. Can also mean clunky play between two players online because of connection/internet issues
Meteor Smash: An attack that sends an opponent downwards but can be jump canceled/up B canceled before the hitstun of the attack ends. I.e Mario's Fair
Money Match: A match in which money is on the line for both players.
Power Shield: The act of shielding right before a projectile hits you resulting in the projectile being sent back at the opponent (power shielding makes the projectile yours so it will hit opponents back)
Punish: The act of attacking an opponent is vulnerable very often during lag of attacks. Also very common when someone Up B's back on stage
Salty: Being mad/sad about a loss.
Sandbagging: The act of playing worse against an opponent on purpose for what ever reason.
SD/Self-Destruct: Getting KOed (losing a stock) without your opponent hitting you to make you lose said stock.
Sex Kick: An attack that has a hitbox out until the attack animation is fully completed i.e. Shiek's nair
Share Stock: Taking a stock from your partner in a doubles game
Short Hop: Jumping up at a smaller height than you would if you held the jump button/control stick up. Leads to a smaller jump variant.
Spike: An attack that sends an opponent downwards and cannot be canceled before the hitstun ends. I.E Marth's tipper Dair
Stage Spike: When an attack hit's an opponent that sends them into a wall. When they hit the wall they'll be sent at a downward angled direction similar to a spike as it cannot be canceled unless the opponent teched the wall hit.
Stalling: The act of making a match longer. This can happen by avoiding your opponent, through multiple ledge grabs (as grabbing the ledge grants you invincibility for a short time and this can be refreshed), etc.
Star KO: Getting KOed off the top blast zone resulting in your character being sent flying off like a shooting star.
Sweet spot: Some attacks have areas where they have different properties. This is very prominent in a character like Marth. Hitting his sweet spot (known as tippers as it is the tip of the sword) leads to more powerful attacks and more knockback. Note: Sweet spotting can also mean Sweet spotting the ledge which means that you perfectly use an Up-B and at the highest point/end of the animation your character grabs the ledge so you have no lag and cannot be punished.
Teching: The act of hitting L/R right while your character is in hitstun before they hit the ground or part of the stage. This leads to your character getting back up instantly instead of ending up on the ground in a vulnerable state. Teching is important for surviving as a lot of combos can be done when you fail to tech.
Technology: Usually refers to techniques and strategies that is not really known to people or hard to input.
Wall jump: The act of pressing the opposite direction of a wall, and your character will do a special animation and jump off of the wall and in an arc direction. Only some character can wall jump. (If you wall tech and hold up while doing so, your character will perform a wall jump even if they normally cannot).
Wavedash: The act of jumping and quickly airdashing towards the ground to create a sliding motion. See advanced techniques for more information.
Waveland: The act of wavedashing at the end of a jump or to cancel the rest of your jump so you land on a platform faster. Can be used in combos.
Wobbling: The act of Ice Climbers grabbing an opponent and attacking them with Nana and Popo in a precise timing that makes it impossible to get out of the grab leading to for sure kills. Can only happen at certain percents above 30% or so.
# stocking - Amount of lives left when winning the game
Thanks to joshie0808 for some of the terms earlier
Advice for getting out of Falco's combos as Marth? I'm pretty good at avoiding lasers and comboing/ledgeguarding Falco myself, but I always dread getting hit by Falco as I feel it almost invariably leads to me taking 60% or dying.
On March 27 2014 22:04 tofucake wrote: Marth soft counters spacies because he can 0-death them with chain grab into Ken combo. Try that.
My marth matchup knowledge may be outdated but I thought there was a specific DI that would get you out of the chain grab around 20-35%?
On platform stages it's true, though for PS it's a bit higher. On FD all you have to do with Marth is a dash or wavedash to continue. But still, 35% for free is pretty good.
On March 27 2014 23:11 YokaY wrote: Why is pivot grabbing, or more grabbing from a standing position important in chain grabbing? Why do people prefer it over dash grab or jc grab?
Or is there no preference and i was just imagining that?
Dash grab is slower than standing grab, which is why you usually see people jc grab from run or pivot grab.
On March 27 2014 22:04 tofucake wrote: Marth soft counters spacies because he can 0-death them with chain grab into Ken combo. Try that.
My marth matchup knowledge may be outdated but I thought there was a specific DI that would get you out of the chain grab around 20-35%?
Yes, in that range (21-25%) you can do slight-behind DI. This doesn't get you out of the chaingrab guaranteed but it does force Marth to do a pivot grab which is difficult to get consistently.
On March 27 2014 23:11 YokaY wrote: Why is pivot grabbing, or more grabbing from a standing position important in chain grabbing? Why do people prefer it over dash grab or jc grab?
Or is there no preference and i was just imagining that?
Not sure what you mean. In the above example you have to pivot grab because no other grab will work. In other situations you do as it requires. Why dash and jc grab if they DI'd slightly in front? Just stand and regrab.
On March 27 2014 16:44 OnceKing wrote: Advice for getting out of Falco's combos as Marth? I'm pretty good at avoiding lasers and comboing/ledgeguarding Falco myself, but I always dread getting hit by Falco as I feel it almost invariably leads to me taking 60% or dying.
Smash DI the pillar more specifically the shine portion it won't always get you out but if it does they can only end their combo with double laser instead of dair to tech chase. It's a spacing heavy match up for marth. Also learning to gimp falco will lead to some free stocks
You'll probably take 60% from a good Falco anyway, that's the idea of playing Falco since he's so fragile. Since you do the same (or worse) to him from a single grab it works out.
On March 28 2014 06:09 spacer wrote: Just bought a gamecube and melee for a couple of euros, how to get good enough to beat my friends 3 weeks from now? (they've only played brawl a bit)
I've been down the "good in 3 weeks" road. It's like trying in 3 weeks to just be good at Starcraft. It doesn't come quickly.
On March 28 2014 05:59 Xeofreestyler wrote: I still don't get what smash DI means, can someone elaborate?
there's two kinds of DI smash and slide. smash is when you mash the control stick in one direction and slide is when you use two like left and diagonal left-down.
On March 28 2014 05:59 Xeofreestyler wrote: I still don't get what smash DI means, can someone elaborate?
alright, first let's go over the sequence of things that happen once you get hit. after an attack connects cleanly, several things happen:
-damage is applied -"hitlag", a sort of freezeframe effect, occurs for both the person being hit and the person who did the attack (but only the person being hit can do anything during hitlag). -after hitlag is over, "hitstun" (which is a period of unactionable lag for the person being it) and knockback begin
during histun, DI and Teching are the only inputs that are listened to, i believe. during hitlag, Smash DI is the only possible input.
so what SDI does is move your character a relatively small distance before hitstun and knockback begin. it's performed by inputting a Control Stick direction during the hitlag period. you can input one SDI direction per frame of hitlag, so a lot of people like to SDI by rolling the Control Stick along the gate (e.g. doing a quartercircle in whatever quadrant you want to SDI towards), since this makes it easier to get multiple SDI inputs.
there are a few reasons for using SDI: 1. to escape a multihit attack or an extremely fast link. for instance, Fox's u-air hits twice, first with a weak hit that mostly just stuns and then a strong one capable of killing pretty easily. if you SDI the first hit, you can make your character move to the side, making the second hit fail to connect. another example (which doesn't get done nearly enough imo) is Fox's d-air Drill Kick; if you SDI away from the drill, you can avoid taking multiple hits, and if you do it early enough you can actually avoid the Shine in a drillshine.
2. to eke out a little bit more distance when you're DIing out of a combo. generally when you're trying to escape a combo, you're DIing away and towards the ground or a platform or sometimes safer airspace. since SDI moves your character before the knockback begins, you can use it in addition to regular DI to get further away than what regular DI alone would accomplish. the difference isn't huge, but it can be very significant, making some links impossible and others much more difficult to chase down in time.
3. to tech (especially to ledgetech). when you're recovering from below the stage and someone hits you with an attack just next-to/under the ledge, SDI can move you towads the stage so that you'll be touching the wall when hitstun begins, which makes it possible for you to walltech on the ledge instead of being knocked away.
on the first frame after hitlag ends, whatever direction the Control Stick is holding is input as ASDI (Automatic Smash DI), which also moves your character before knockback begins, but only about half the distance that regular SDI does. one quirk of the ASDI system is that the C-Stick is read with higher priority than the Control Stick, which is good because, you need to use the Control Stick for SDI and regular DI. so you can hold the C-Stick in a direction during hitlag, while you SDI with the Control Stick, and then immediately switch your Control Stick to your regular DI, and whatever direction the C-Stick is holding will be input as ASDI at the end of hitlag.
after hitlag is over and ASDI is realized and knockback begins, the Control Stick is read for regular DI, which (unlike SDI and ASDI) actually changes the angle of your knockback trajectory, rather than simply moving your character in a direction. you can't DI along the same line as the default knockback trajectory, so in order to have the greatest effect on the angle, you want to generally DI perpendicularly to the base knockback trajectory for whatever attack it is.
Wow, sick reply. That's exactly the kind of explanation I was hoping for, thanks!
Now, how much does hitlag last? Is it dependant of the attack or is it a fixed number?
In practice, I need to start using the Cstick while being comboed right? Do I need to doubletap the directions with the controlstick, as in, does it need to be registered separately during hitlag and hitstun?
Hitlag depends on the attack (Samus' charged shot has one of the most hitlag in the game), while hitstun on the other hand depends on the character you are using.
Is a guide someone just posted about all the intricacies of DI if you want to read more about it.
Yes in practice you should be using both. If you are using both then I know you will not need to doubletap the directions and am pretty sure you do not need to input it twice. I.e tapping that direction during the SDI and then holding it after being sent flying will give you the DI you're looking for.
In the documentary, the Japanese apparently "discovered" DI. Are there any new techniques/mechanics that have recently been discovered, or is everything about Melee known already?
On March 28 2014 13:51 Shinshady wrote: Hitlag depends on the attack (Samus' charged shot has one of the most hitlag in the game), while hitstun on the other hand depends on the character you are using.
Is a guide someone just posted about all the intricacies of DI if you want to read more about it.
Yes in practice you should be using both. If you are using both then I know you will not need to doubletap the directions and am pretty sure you do not need to input it twice. I.e tapping that direction during the SDI and then holding it after being sent flying will give you the DI you're looking for.
Sweet, thanks. I saw that guide, I'm actually the guy who proposed redesigning it into a proper layout, I'll post it here once its finished too.
On March 28 2014 19:37 NapkinBox wrote: In the documentary, the Japanese apparently "discovered" DI. Are there any new techniques/mechanics that have recently been discovered, or is everything about Melee known already?
it's pretty rare for new and significant things to be "discovered", really. even DI was known here before TG6; it's just that the Japanese players at the time were far and away better at it than most players in the States, which was caused mostly by us not knowing some particulars of the mechanics (such as multipleSDI/QCDI), considering it less important relative to how they viewed it, and not really believing that players could react consistently fast enough to DI that much better.
and actually, those three reasons:
1. not knowing mechanics details such as frame data, optimal angles, hitbox specifics, etc. 2. thinking it's too difficult for everyone to execute consistently and implement effectively... 3. and thinking (partially because of the difficulty) that it's of relatively mild importance in the metagame.
pretty much account for why almost every "new discovery" (including the thing that Cactuar, Leffen, Prog, Toph, KK and others have been circlejerking about on Twitter) ends up being something that was known a very very long time ago, but never caught on with the community at large, used instead my a small amount of players here and there.
Shield Dropping is a really good example of this, since it actually is starting to catch on and trickle down as a current trend. i first learned about it in 2005 probably, and it existed in SSB64 so i'm sure there are people who knew about it on day one. this video guide was made in 2010. and in q4 2013, we started hearing about it more frequently as this revolutionary new thing, and in 2014, we're seeing people actually start to do it all over the place—it's still not common, but it's trending upwards enough that the technique will disperse over the course of the year.
and then there's stuff like empty pivots, which have been done by the most mediocre Texas players since maybe 2004. tech tends to trickle down from the top, and Texas had FastLikeTree and a couple other bosses who really liked pivoting, so everyone learned to do it, while most regions tend to typically pivot grab, pivot f-smash, and occasionally pivot n-air or d-smash (among Falcon players mostly). Sung (a ranked player in SoCal) actually came to a tournament here in December and commented on how rando players could do pivot tilts, which are really uncommon in his region even though it's basically Smash heaven. it's a thing.
and then you also get just really weird or creative uses of known techniques or mechanics. but from my perspective, the last "new" tech was like ledgeteching in 2005 or whatever. more stuff just pops up at large as the average tech skill level rises.
What buttons do top players (like mango, m2k, pp, etc) use for aerials (A button vs c-stick), teching/l-cancelling (L or R), jumps (X,Y, or up), and wavedashing?
Primarily c-stick for aerials, x or y for jumps. But every player is different, and if you're curious about a specific player, talk to them on Twitter. M2K is accessible on Facebook, too, and Westballz among others has an ask.fm. Can also be character-specific, too.
Most players use cstick for aerials, and z instead of a for neutral airs. Personally, I tech and shield with R and wavedash with L. Jumps for top players are almost never control stick. X/Y just offer too many benefits. I know M2K typically uses X for jump, though sometimes he uses a claw grip for Fox and with that it's a Y jump instead.
It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly.
On March 29 2014 12:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote: It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly.
Jesus, it's so hard constantly moving your thumb rapidly between Y and C-stick lol.
On March 29 2014 12:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote: It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly.
Jesus, it's so hard constantly moving your thumb rapidly between Y and C-stick lol.
Maybe experiment with a claw grip? So middle finger on Z, index on Y, thumb for A/B/C-stick.
On March 29 2014 12:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote: It's also like super hard to do stuff like fading fairs or falling up airs when you use stick direction and A. You'll go the wrong direction or waste your double jump or something. And the tolerances for like short hop ff bair done entirely with stick jumps and stick + A are silly.
Jesus, it's so hard constantly moving your thumb rapidly between Y and C-stick lol.
Maybe experiment with a claw grip? So middle finger on Z, index on Y, thumb for A/B/C-stick.
Maybe I've been living under a rock, but is this common? First time I have ever seen a claw grip.
I'm holding my GC controller with the claw grip, and it actually doesn't feel uncomfortable at all. It's probably gonna take a damn while to get used to it though.
I'd say it's pretty uncommon for most people and somewhat common among some speedrunners and melee players. Not everyone does it, but some do. M2K, as mentioned, plays claw on Fox and normally on everyone else. So just experiment and see what works for you.
In the normal grip, what fingers are used for Z/R? Index for z and middle for R? One finger for both buttons? (in that case, does that finger primarily rest on Z but occasionally move to R, or vice versa?) Thanks.
For my normal grip I use the pointer finger for Z and R and it primarily rests on R since I use R for Shield and primary wavedashing. Just do whatever is comfortable for you of course
On March 29 2014 15:57 LuckoftheIrish wrote: I'd say it's pretty uncommon for most people and somewhat common among some speedrunners and melee players. Not everyone does it, but some do. M2K, as mentioned, plays claw on Fox and normally on everyone else. So just experiment and see what works for you.
Claw was a thing back in the days of competitive Halo too. I have no idea if it's still relevant in console fps or not.
How do I crouch cancel a dash correctly? Do I roll the control stick in a downward arc, or do I let it return to neutral then move it down? In particular I want to do an immediate d-tilt out of dash but I seem to have trouble with it (sometimes down smashing, sometimes dash attacking etc. When I watch videos, players seem to be able to d-tilt so fast out of a dash)
On March 30 2014 15:06 smashbash wrote: How do I crouch cancel a dash correctly? Do I roll the control stick in a downward arc, or do I let it return to neutral then move it down? In particular I want to do an immediate d-tilt out of dash but I seem to have trouble with it (sometimes down smashing, sometimes dash attacking etc. When I watch videos, players seem to be able to d-tilt so fast out of a dash)
To dash-cancel (CC) d-tilt, just hit straight down and hit A afterwards. If you are dash attacking if means your stick is not at the down position so you don't get the dash cancel, if you are downsmashing it means you are hitting A+down at the same time and holding it too long.
On March 30 2014 16:56 teeeckskay wrote: you can't interrupt the Initial Dash animation; you have to wait until you transition into "running"
Well technically you can interrupt the initial dash animation into a dash in the opposite direction, at which point you can pivot into literally anything.
But yeah assuming you're Marth just check for the run animation.
On March 30 2014 15:06 smashbash wrote: How do I crouch cancel a dash correctly? Do I roll the control stick in a downward arc, or do I let it return to neutral then move it down? In particular I want to do an immediate d-tilt out of dash but I seem to have trouble with it (sometimes down smashing, sometimes dash attacking etc. When I watch videos, players seem to be able to d-tilt so fast out of a dash)
To dash-cancel (CC) d-tilt, just hit straight down and hit A afterwards. If you are dash attacking if means your stick is not at the down position so you don't get the dash cancel, if you are downsmashing it means you are hitting A+down at the same time and holding it too long.
So you mean let it return to neutral position from the side position then hit it down right? Also, do you mean that even if i hit A+down at the same time, i can d-tilt as long as i don:t hold it long? Thanks
On March 30 2014 15:06 smashbash wrote: How do I crouch cancel a dash correctly? Do I roll the control stick in a downward arc, or do I let it return to neutral then move it down? In particular I want to do an immediate d-tilt out of dash but I seem to have trouble with it (sometimes down smashing, sometimes dash attacking etc. When I watch videos, players seem to be able to d-tilt so fast out of a dash)
To dash-cancel (CC) d-tilt, just hit straight down and hit A afterwards. If you are dash attacking if means your stick is not at the down position so you don't get the dash cancel, if you are downsmashing it means you are hitting A+down at the same time and holding it too long.
So you mean let it return to neutral position from the side position then hit it down right? Also, do you mean that even if i hit A+down at the same time, i can d-tilt as long as i don:t hold it long? Thanks
No need to set to neutral. Think about how you down tilt normally. Now just do that as soon as you're in a run animation.
On March 30 2014 16:56 teeeckskay wrote: you can't interrupt the Initial Dash animation; you have to wait until you transition into "running"
Until the run frame you can turn around without penalty (pivot). After run frame there's a turn animation. You can CC at any point, iirc.
i just meant in order to dash into a d-tilt. it's a running d-tilt. "dash canceling" is pressing down on the control stick during run, not actually the initial dash.
but yea, you can pivot, do some weird stuff to your momentum, shield, jump and side-b during an initial dash.
On April 02 2014 00:15 Capricis wrote: What are some good ways to find people near me that play Smash? Is there some sort of community listing? I live in USA, Kentucky.
As other people have said, for community stuff, a lot of things have moved to Facebook. I think the New England group has more than doubled in the past year.
So I have decided to main puff because I just don't give a fuck. I understand that puff is technically easier. I can cancel ariels well (though I will practice getting better at it) I am going to practice making my wave dashing and wave landing 100% consistent rather than around 75%... what tech-wise after this is essential to learn?
On April 02 2014 04:14 puppykiller wrote: So I have decided to main puff because I just don't give a fuck. I understand that puff is technically easier. I can cancel ariels well (though I will practice getting better at it) I am going to practice making my wave dashing and wave landing 100% consistent rather than around 75%... what tech-wise after this is essential to learn?
Rising pound. Side-b, and input up as the pound animation begins. You can do it back and forth to rise up in a fairly narrow column. If I recall correctly, pound also has some really good priority (I've never actually played puff extensively).
On April 02 2014 04:14 puppykiller wrote: So I have decided to main puff because I just don't give a fuck. I understand that puff is technically easier. I can cancel ariels well (though I will practice getting better at it) I am going to practice making my wave dashing and wave landing 100% consistent rather than around 75%... what tech-wise after this is essential to learn?
I'm not a crack with all the TV-stuff, but lots of people have tried lots of things and there are tons of guides to reduce lag out there, i doubt fixing the dolphin resolution will do anything (or much)
Do any of the third party controllers stack up to the OG Nintendo ones? I have a Wii that I'm trying to get Melee/Homebrew+Project M on and I need some GC controllers for that, but they're generally more expensive than the third party ones.
On April 05 2014 05:42 Doctorbeat wrote: Do any of the third party controllers stack up to the OG Nintendo ones? I have a Wii that I'm trying to get Melee/Homebrew+Project M on and I need some GC controllers for that, but they're generally more expensive than the third party ones.
On April 02 2014 15:15 bo1b wrote: So I know that lcd's have lag because of upscaling, if I up the resolution in dolphin will that get rid of the input lag?
Actually, yes
If you have a properly setup PC, you won't get more input lag than whatever the native input lag is for your monitor
This + adapter lag (1-2ms) + any lag your computer has (should be <1ms if it's a fast one) - Makes for a pretty good experience
There are several pros (leffen for example) who practise on benq's which have about 9ms of lag - however hes not using dolphin, benq's simply support the native 4:3 resolution
---
The way dolphin works is that the output is no different from anything else on your monitor - there is no output from a separate machine which has to be processed and upscaled so your lag won't be any higher than the native lag all LCD's have (which usually is as low as 9ms - you can look it up on the input lag database for your monitor - response time is not the same as input lag and most companies only advertise response time, so be careful) Some monitors can be really bad (some have over 50ms of native lag, so avoid these)
If you're still getting input lag then you've got one of the following problems Your settings are wrong issues with your graphics card compatibility (there are workarounds) you use windows 8 (lol)
On April 06 2014 05:12 Just_a_Moth wrote: Is it better to use the x/y buttons to jump, or the control stick? Or does it even matter?
use x/y, it's easier to do most things with them and you have more control over your aerial momentum. up is used pretty sparingly for really fast cancels like shine bair but should not be your primary jump method
On April 05 2014 05:42 Doctorbeat wrote: Do any of the third party controllers stack up to the OG Nintendo ones? I have a Wii that I'm trying to get Melee/Homebrew+Project M on and I need some GC controllers for that, but they're generally more expensive than the third party ones.
I'm seeing Under Control and Logic 3 as options.
No
If you need a controller, get the white one
Is that the only color Nintendo makes now? Is there no turquoise or anything?
On April 05 2014 05:42 Doctorbeat wrote: Do any of the third party controllers stack up to the OG Nintendo ones? I have a Wii that I'm trying to get Melee/Homebrew+Project M on and I need some GC controllers for that, but they're generally more expensive than the third party ones.
I'm seeing Under Control and Logic 3 as options.
No
If you need a controller, get the white one
Is that the only color Nintendo makes now? Is there no turquoise or anything?
i'm pretty sure no Gamecube controllers are being produced. but the white ones are still available at least.
The white ones are for the Wii are are still in production, but only released in Japan (you can get them through Amazon very easily though). Most of the others were discontinued almost 10 years ago. The silver one was available until just a couple years ago.
If you're on a budget and don't want to shell out the the $26 or whatever for a new white controller on Amazon, there are loads of used controllers on eBay which can go for as low as $15 including shipping. Quality varies a lot, though.
Also, if you buy a tri-wing screwdriver (which you can get for like $1 online), you can take apart any controller and repaint it however you like. You can find guides to this on Smashboards.
On April 12 2014 01:58 Lixo wrote: Are tournaments (kings of cali for instance) played in normal or lightning mode ?
Love this question. When I found out about melee through youtube vids, I also thought they were playing in lightning mode. But it is not true. We play in normal mode, the game is just that fast
On April 12 2014 01:58 Lixo wrote: Are tournaments (kings of cali for instance) played in normal or lightning mode ?
Love this question. When I found out about melee through youtube vids, I also thought they were playing in lightning mode. But it is not true. We play in normal mode, the game is just that fast
Thanks for the answer. I was certain they played in normal, but a friend of mine wouldn't believe me, so I wanted to settle it.
Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
On April 12 2014 05:10 BlackPride wrote: Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
Watch some mango videos. He WANTS his opponents to shield grab. You can space yourself in such a way that you can hit someone's shield but still be out of grab range. We still call it the PC when a falco dairs your shield, you whiff a shield grab and end up eating an fsmash.
You can also try going for the tomahawk. It's a pretty janky mindgame, but it can be a useful mixup. Just empty short hop like you're going to do an aerial at them, but just land in front of them and grab.
Or just shield pressure properly. If you can shffl as Fox/Falco just do a low aerial on their shield and shine after. Hits them out of their grab 100% of the time. Waveshine out and punish.
How bad is sheik in PAL really? I read somewhere that she isnt even A-tier. I dont really want to switch my main out, but i am having a hard time against falco and tbh i am worse than my training partner anyways, I really would prefer to have a strong main to make the games more even.
Also I cant just buy a NTSC version of melee and play, i need to have a NTSC-console as well, right?
On April 12 2014 05:18 Jaaaaasper wrote: Any suggestions on how to practice mechanics long term with out my hands starting to hurt?
How long do you normally practice for? I try practicing at least 30 minutes to an hour a day when I have the time (this time will increase after school is over). If you really need to try doing hand exercises, but I'm used to playing all types of video games for long periods of time so maybe it's not fair to compare. I have a friend who has hand problems so he plays the game on and off, but if you really need to try wearing gloves.
On April 12 2014 05:10 BlackPride wrote: Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
I can't give you good advice as fox but as Falco when you D-air to shield poke if you don't actually get the attack through make sure it was going past his shield. This way he needs to turn around before he grabs and if you l-cancel correctly you should be able to punish it with a shine. If you can't do that really well you could always try spot dodging after the approach but try not to get into the habit of doing so as better players will punish you. Also try to approach differently (for both characters) and if you need to just play campy. Sheik actually can be played decently without advanced tech to be honest.
On April 12 2014 10:28 Blackfeather wrote: How bad is sheik in PAL really? I read somewhere that she isnt even A-tier. I dont really want to switch my main out, but i am having a hard time against falco and tbh i am worse than my training partner anyways, I really would prefer to have a strong main to make the games more even.
Also I cant just buy a NTSC version of melee and play, i need to have a NTSC-console as well, right?
I can't say how bad PAL Sheik is, but if you need to you could always get a Wii and mod it to play the NTSC version of Melee. There are also other ways of bypassing it but I have never tried it myself.
On April 12 2014 05:18 Jaaaaasper wrote: Any suggestions on how to practice mechanics long term with out my hands starting to hurt?
How long do you normally practice for? I try practicing at least 30 minutes to an hour a day when I have the time (this time will increase after school is over). If you really need to try doing hand exercises, but I'm used to playing all types of video games for long periods of time so maybe it's not fair to compare. I have a friend who has hand problems so he plays the game on and off, but if you really need to try wearing gloves.
On April 12 2014 05:10 BlackPride wrote: Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
I can't give you good advice as fox but as Falco when you D-air to shield poke if you don't actually get the attack through make sure it was going past his shield. This way he needs to turn around before he grabs and if you l-cancel correctly you should be able to punish it with a shine. If you can't do that really well you could always try spot dodging after the approach but try not to get into the habit of doing so as better players will punish you. Also try to approach differently (for both characters) and if you need to just play campy. Sheik actually can be played decently without advanced tech to be honest.
On April 12 2014 10:28 Blackfeather wrote: How bad is sheik in PAL really? I read somewhere that she isnt even A-tier. I dont really want to switch my main out, but i am having a hard time against falco and tbh i am worse than my training partner anyways, I really would prefer to have a strong main to make the games more even.
Also I cant just buy a NTSC version of melee and play, i need to have a NTSC-console as well, right?
I can't say how bad PAL Sheik is, but if you need to you could always get a Wii and mod it to play the NTSC version of Melee. There are also other ways of bypassing it but I have never tried it myself.
PAL Sheik is different to play, as you cannot chaingrab off the downthrow, which is a significant portion of NTSC's Sheik game. However, there has been a fair amount of very successful PAL Sheiks over the years, notably Amsah, Overtriforce and Ice. Their styles always featured a very different style because of that lack of downthrow power, while retaining the core of Sheik's game strengths such as techchases, solid ledge game and juggles with the weakened up-air.
On April 12 2014 05:10 BlackPride wrote: Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
Spacies have a ridiculous defensive game with their lasers, so you can simply abuse it and force any defensive player to approach. You can also try to land behind him, putting you safely out of the grab option. Another option is to empty jump, also known as tomahawk, leaving you with no landing lag, so while he will be expecting to shield an attack then grab, you can beat him by simply landing and grabbing his shield. Hope that helps a bit, learning new techniques will sometimes (most of the times for me) put you at a disadvantage until you get it down.
On April 12 2014 13:30 darthfoley wrote: Must've missed it. What's the difference between PAL and NTSC?
Quite a few tweaks were made to several moves in an attempt to "patch" the game up. A quick google search as led me to this list : List of regional version differences
Most of them are nerfs, Fox smashes getting hit pretty hard, along with Sheik's downthrow game and Marth/Falco spikes being different (Marth is a Meteor Smash and Falco only spikes for the first half)
On April 12 2014 05:10 BlackPride wrote: Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
Spacies have a ridiculous defensive game with their lasers, so you can simply abuse it and force any defensive player to approach. You can also try to land behind him, putting you safely out of the grab option. Another option is to empty jump, also known as tomahawk, leaving you with no landing lag, so while he will be expecting to shield an attack then grab, you can beat him by simply landing and grabbing his shield. Hope that helps a bit, learning new techniques will sometimes (most of the times for me) put you at a disadvantage until you get it down.
I felt this was true for me playing 64 too. was much better to learn how to properly space and predict/read the opponent.
On April 12 2014 13:30 darthfoley wrote: Must've missed it. What's the difference between PAL and NTSC?
Quite a few tweaks were made to several moves in an attempt to "patch" the game up. A quick google search as led me to this list : List of regional version differences
Most of them are nerfs, Fox smashes getting hit pretty hard, along with Sheik's downthrow game and Marth/Falco spikes being different (Marth is a Meteor Smash and Falco only spikes for the first half)
On April 12 2014 05:10 BlackPride wrote: Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
If you can L-cancel with spacies you shouldn't be gettting shieldgrabbed alot, esp. against someone who doesn't know advance techniques.
i mean L-canceling doesn't make you necessarily space well or time your hits late enough on shield or act on the first frame after landlag. getting away with hitting a shield isn't really that easy. even watching pretty good players in tournaments, you'll see plenty of stuff that should get shield grabbed not get punished just because players at that level (like intermediate-good; top level players will generally notice and punish) assume that the pressure is going to be tight and well spaced. when your opponent doesn't already have that assumption and respect for what you're doing and is going to try and shieldgrab everything you do, then you actually need to be even better at it kind of.
On April 13 2014 12:48 teeeckskay wrote: i mean L-canceling doesn't make you necessarily space well or time your hits late enough on shield or act on the first frame after landlag. getting away with hitting a shield isn't really that easy. even watching pretty good players in tournaments, you'll see plenty of stuff that should get shield grabbed not get punished just because players at that level (like intermediate-good; top level players will generally notice and punish) assume that the pressure is going to be tight and well spaced. when your opponent doesn't already have that assumption and respect for what you're doing and is going to try and shieldgrab everything you do, then you actually need to be even better at it kind of.
Going along that line of reasoning let's say that I'm approaching the level that I am actually getting good at sffl into shine at the point where i can hit it fairly consistently. My opponents have been conditioned (by my earlier lack of tech skill) to still try to shield grab way more than is optimal. Assuming I do something like nair into their shield then L-Cancel shine to hit them out of their shield grab, what are some bread-butter ideas for efficient follow-ups/punishes? (I play fox).
The problem is that my opponents are STILL shield grabbing too much, knowing that if I knock them out of it with a shine it's only 5% damage, whereas if I fuck up and they do get the grab and some followup it's way more than that. (For reference I can wavedash out of shine pretty consistently at this point, but for some reason it never really turns into anything meaningful for me).
On April 15 2014 18:30 Kashll wrote: The problem is that my opponents are STILL shield grabbing too much, knowing that if I knock them out of it with a shine it's only 5% damage, whereas if I fuck up and they do get the grab and some followup it's way more than that. (For reference I can wavedash out of shine pretty consistently at this point, but for some reason it never really turns into anything meaningful for me).
This is your problem, you need to learn how to punish after that. If they are not punished for their mistakes, why will they stop ? After a shine with fox, your ennemi is either on the ground (if a fast faller), either he'll be combo-able easily with like a grab for example, or an upsmash. If on the ground with no tech, you punsih with a nair or upsmash, if he tech, you try to follow and keep the momentum. And when grabbed, you need to upthrow upair or stuff like this. Even better, you put him in an edgeguardable situation where you could possibly kill him, make him stress a little bit, and then he'll respect your game to another point
On April 13 2014 12:48 teeeckskay wrote: i mean L-canceling doesn't make you necessarily space well or time your hits late enough on shield or act on the first frame after landlag. getting away with hitting a shield isn't really that easy. even watching pretty good players in tournaments, you'll see plenty of stuff that should get shield grabbed not get punished just because players at that level (like intermediate-good; top level players will generally notice and punish) assume that the pressure is going to be tight and well spaced. when your opponent doesn't already have that assumption and respect for what you're doing and is going to try and shieldgrab everything you do, then you actually need to be even better at it kind of.
Going along that line of reasoning let's say that I'm approaching the level that I am actually getting good at sffl into shine at the point where i can hit it fairly consistently. My opponents have been conditioned (by my earlier lack of tech skill) to still try to shield grab way more than is optimal. Assuming I do something like nair into their shield then L-Cancel shine to hit them out of their shield grab, what are some bread-butter ideas for efficient follow-ups/punishes? (I play fox).
The problem is that my opponents are STILL shield grabbing too much, knowing that if I knock them out of it with a shine it's only 5% damage, whereas if I fuck up and they do get the grab and some followup it's way more than that. (For reference I can wavedash out of shine pretty consistently at this point, but for some reason it never really turns into anything meaningful for me).
If you're hitting your waveshines consistently it should be pretty easy to follow it up with something meaningful. Especially against sheik - you can hit her with pretty much any move you want really.
I still think you should work on spacing your aerials in such a way that you hit their shield but you're out of grab range. That will help you in the long run by improving your spacing. I can post a few matches as examples if you want.
On April 13 2014 12:48 teeeckskay wrote: i mean L-canceling doesn't make you necessarily space well or time your hits late enough on shield or act on the first frame after landlag. getting away with hitting a shield isn't really that easy. even watching pretty good players in tournaments, you'll see plenty of stuff that should get shield grabbed not get punished just because players at that level (like intermediate-good; top level players will generally notice and punish) assume that the pressure is going to be tight and well spaced. when your opponent doesn't already have that assumption and respect for what you're doing and is going to try and shieldgrab everything you do, then you actually need to be even better at it kind of.
Going along that line of reasoning let's say that I'm approaching the level that I am actually getting good at sffl into shine at the point where i can hit it fairly consistently. My opponents have been conditioned (by my earlier lack of tech skill) to still try to shield grab way more than is optimal. Assuming I do something like nair into their shield then L-Cancel shine to hit them out of their shield grab, what are some bread-butter ideas for efficient follow-ups/punishes? (I play fox).
The problem is that my opponents are STILL shield grabbing too much, knowing that if I knock them out of it with a shine it's only 5% damage, whereas if I fuck up and they do get the grab and some followup it's way more than that. (For reference I can wavedash out of shine pretty consistently at this point, but for some reason it never really turns into anything meaningful for me).
Hitting someone with a shine, especially a sheik, is a really big deal lol
It's like, shine, grab, uair + juggle you got garuanteed 25% + garuanteed kill above 100% + juggle on platform (garunteed if right below)
Foxes punishes on sheik are pretty huge and usually it only takes 1-2 punishes to get a stock
As for sheik in PAL, shes still top tier but you have to learn to play completely differently
On April 15 2014 18:30 Kashll wrote: The problem is that my opponents are STILL shield grabbing too much, knowing that if I knock them out of it with a shine it's only 5% damage, whereas if I fuck up and they do get the grab and some followup it's way more than that. (For reference I can wavedash out of shine pretty consistently at this point, but for some reason it never really turns into anything meaningful for me).
This is your problem, you need to learn how to punish after that. If they are not punished for their mistakes, why will they stop ? After a shine with fox, your ennemi is either on the ground (if a fast faller), either he'll be combo-able easily with like a grab for example, or an upsmash. If on the ground with no tech, you punsih with a nair or upsmash, if he tech, you try to follow and keep the momentum. And when grabbed, you need to upthrow upair or stuff like this. Even better, you put him in an edgeguardable situation where you could possibly kill him, make him stress a little bit, and then he'll respect your game to another point
Yeah I really think I need to learn to space my n-airs betters. Spacing b-air is much easier.
Let's say I shine a fast-faller and he hits the ground with no tech? Are you saying I want to try to wavedash nair, or nair directly out of shine? In my experience i just get get-up attacked if i try pressure like this, which is maybe a sign that i'm too slow (or does it only work at very high percents where they bounce a lot?)
BrTarolg wrote: Hitting someone with a shine, especially a sheik, is a really big deal lol
It's like, shine, grab, uair + juggle you got garuanteed 25% + garuanteed kill above 100% + juggle on platform (garunteed if right below)
Stuff like that is what I need to work on. Are you saying it's possible to shine, wavedash, grab a sheik 100%? Or is it a shine directly into a jump-canceled grab? (it seems like the latter is too short range to work). Whenever I waveshine someone I either run right into a getup attack (if it knocks them down), or end up too far so I'm grabbing behind their shield (which then gets punished). Ironically when they tech is when i end up the best because at least then i can try to chase them and setup some more decently spaced pressure.
You can do any attack of fox after a shine vs sheik.
Shine->wavedash towards ->punish (usually you will want to Usmash to kill, grab to combo, shine to continue shining) However, you could fsmash, downsmash, fair, dashattack, downtilt (actually legit), NAIR, uair, bair, dair->shine, ftilt, utilt, jab, . . .) # You should check out a Fox guide on Smashboards, it'd probably give you lots of necessary basics
vs characters that get knocked down you can nair if you are quick and they don't tech, (if you're quick enough you can do alot, but it's harder) First thing you should learn is Jab reset though. It's important vs fastfallers (Fox/Falco) and occasionally works against marth. Some characters (luigi/ICs) will slide very far, making a grab impossible, but in that case shine acts as a method to get them into a corner or even offstage and keep working from there (but as alawys, if you're quick enough you can get shine->nair vs slidy characters or other shiz.)
BrTarolg wrote: Hitting someone with a shine, especially a sheik, is a really big deal lol
It's like, shine, grab, uair + juggle you got garuanteed 25% + garuanteed kill above 100% + juggle on platform (garunteed if right below)
Stuff like that is what I need to work on. Are you saying it's possible to shine, wavedash, grab a sheik 100%? Or is it a shine directly into a jump-canceled grab? (it seems like the latter is too short range to work). Whenever I waveshine someone I either run right into a getup attack (if it knocks them down), or end up too far so I'm grabbing behind their shield (which then gets punished). Ironically when they tech is when i end up the best because at least then i can try to chase them and setup some more decently spaced pressure.
Both actually lol
But shine-->wd is the preferred option Vs those it knocks down you can thunders combo them (especially heavier targets) theres a thread on smashboarsd about knockdown percentages and jab resets
And even then, a free knockdown+ techchase considering how fast fox is is easy to follow up on too
Fox's punishes are pretty free flow, but they are still some of the best in the game. If you watch a textbook fox like leffen you can just see him absolutely cream people after they make a mistake and he gets a shine in because from that point on your opponent is forced into some awful digital choices which all have bad outcomes
What does Marth say (both in English and Japanese) when he taunts? I've been playing him a lot lately, so i was just wondering. I'm just another English-speaking man playing Super Smash Brothers..
So I have a Wii but no games for it or GC controllers. Assuming I get the games for free...somehow... Is there any real difference to learning to play on projectm vs plain old melee? Will all the moves I learn there pretty much transfer over to melee bc they're mostly the same? Also, how much would it cost to get, say, 4 GC controllers?
But technically, a lot of skills will carry over between sc2 and brood war, like learning to macro, controlling units, building workers etc. What's so different between projectm and melee (apart from character roster) that learning skills in pm wouldn't carry over to melee?
all the timings and muscle memory will be different and the entire edgeguarding/recovery portion of the game is hardly even similar.
you can definitely learn things about fundamentals and spacing and neutral game and how to combo (though even this, since it's so tightly wound with tech skill, is sort of a mixed bag) and a bunch of other stuff, but generally players that are already super experienced will have a much easier time transitioning between the two games and applying their observations across, since they'll already be familiar with the specific details and nuances and can more easily see what to adjust.
for newer players, since you start off generally by developing a lot of mechanical skills, i wouldn't expect as big of a benefit across games.
Aha, I see. This was the answer I was looking for. Thanks. I wasn't sure how different the two games were from each other, having only played them both a handful of times just casually with friends.
I just started playing this game about 2 days ago and have a couple control questions, do players typically jump with X/Y, or up on the control stick? Also, I'm playing on emulator with GC controller so I have to set the controls myself, and I'm not sure whether L and R are supposed to be set to the triggers pressed all the way until they click, or the triggers just slightly pressed in.
Not pressing L/R all the way will light shield. I've heard all sorts of people use x/y/up for jumping. I find myself using all 3. Do whatever is most comfortable as long as you're consistent. I'm sure someone else will chime in as to which buttons are more efficient, but if you're fast enough nothing is impossible (:
On April 18 2014 07:19 Epishade wrote: But technically, a lot of skills will carry over between sc2 and brood war, like learning to macro, controlling units, building workers etc. What's so different between projectm and melee (apart from character roster) that learning skills in pm wouldn't carry over to melee?
Actually, most of those things you listed there are quite different between BW and SC2. With Macro, due to the lack of being able to select multiple buildings, you need to click every individual building and build the unit, otherwise have fun having your entire hotkey bar filled. Also, workers can't be rallied to mineral patches. Controlling units is very different due to the (simply put) dumber AI. If you simply send your army with an a-move to the enemy's base, they'll try to go in a straight line and funnel into the enemy base slowly. And as for building workers, Protoss has to use "p" instead of "e" to build probes and pylons. Not only that, but most of the hotkeys use the first letter of the structure or unit if possible. "m" for marine, "o" for overlord, etc..
On April 19 2014 20:38 phantaxx wrote: I just started playing this game about 2 days ago and have a couple control questions, do players typically jump with X/Y, or up on the control stick? Also, I'm playing on emulator with GC controller so I have to set the controls myself, and I'm not sure whether L and R are supposed to be set to the triggers pressed all the way until they click, or the triggers just slightly pressed in.
Players will typically jump with the X button because it's a lot closer to the B button and C stick, not only that but for most players it will feel natural than the y button. The pivot of your thumb will allow easier movement going side to side between the C stick, B button, A button, and X button, than bending up and down between the A and Y button, then to move side to side between C stick, B, and A buttons. Tapping the Control stick up will usually be harder to do, or more annoying to do, because when it comes to SHFFLing, the movement of your left thumb will be pretty strenuous. Tapping it up (shorthopping), tapping it to the side(or not if you're nairing) and tapping down to fast fall.
It'd be hard to learn. but i don't think you want to learn that much, and learning to do it with precision. Plus it's wasting effort to do actions that would be a bit easier with both thumbs as opposed to using one thumb to do all the actions and the other thumb to simply tap A or B
On April 12 2014 05:10 BlackPride wrote: Hey a buddy of mine plays sheik and is awfully defensive. I get shield-grabbed a ridiculous amount every game as fox and falco and just don't know how to combat it. The guy hardly wavedashes, isn't even trying to L-cancel and seldomuses any other advanced techniques. I do, and have pretty decent mechanics and tech for a relatively new player, yet I cannot beat this shield-grabbing. What can I do? I know its vague, but any advice will help.
best way to combat this with fox and falco ESPECIALLY, is learning how to nair shine or dair shine. This covers a lot of options, and learning how to do this will help you practice shffling. best way to practice this is by grabbing a second controller, putting it to bowser, putting damage ration to 0.5, and its handicap to 9. This will make sure it stays still(as if shielding) and you can practice your nairshine/dairshine along with the 1-frame lag. Not only will it help you practice shield pressure, but your hands will get a lot faster too. One of the best ways to practice techskill when you're starting off as a falco/fox. Also, try to space out the timing of your nairshine/dairshines because the odds of them grabbing out of shield at the exact moment you nair, or the exact moment of your shine is not probable. If you space it out, then your chance of shieldpoking is a little more likely.
On April 18 2014 07:19 Epishade wrote: But technically, a lot of skills will carry over between sc2 and brood war, like learning to macro, controlling units, building workers etc. What's so different between projectm and melee (apart from character roster) that learning skills in pm wouldn't carry over to melee?
Actually, most of those things you listed there are quite different between BW and SC2. With Macro, due to the lack of being able to select multiple buildings, you need to click every individual building and build the unit, otherwise have fun having your entire hotkey bar filled. Also, workers can't be rallied to mineral patches. Controlling units is very different due to the (simply put) dumber AI. If you simply send your army with an a-move to the enemy's base, they'll try to go in a straight line and funnel into the enemy base slowly. And as for building workers, Protoss has to use "p" instead of "e" to build probes and pylons. Not only that, but most of the hotkeys use the first letter of the structure or unit if possible. "m" for marine, "o" for overlord, etc..
...I've played Broodwar. There's no need for you to tell me exactly what the differences are between the two games. It doesn't matter one bit that you have to select things differently and workers don't automine. My point was that by learning the foundations of macro and playing well in one game, you'd know what to do in the other and be able to do it just as well when you conform to that game. Please don't try to correct me over something that I wasn't even arguing over. Obviously the games are going to have differences...
On April 18 2014 07:19 Epishade wrote: But technically, a lot of skills will carry over between sc2 and brood war, like learning to macro, controlling units, building workers etc. What's so different between projectm and melee (apart from character roster) that learning skills in pm wouldn't carry over to melee?
Actually, most of those things you listed there are quite different between BW and SC2. With Macro, due to the lack of being able to select multiple buildings, you need to click every individual building and build the unit, otherwise have fun having your entire hotkey bar filled. Also, workers can't be rallied to mineral patches. Controlling units is very different due to the (simply put) dumber AI. If you simply send your army with an a-move to the enemy's base, they'll try to go in a straight line and funnel into the enemy base slowly. And as for building workers, Protoss has to use "p" instead of "e" to build probes and pylons. Not only that, but most of the hotkeys use the first letter of the structure or unit if possible. "m" for marine, "o" for overlord, etc..
...I've played Broodwar. There's no need for you to tell me exactly what the differences are between the two games. It doesn't matter one bit that you have to select things differently and workers don't automine. My point was that by learning the foundations of macro and playing well in one game, you'd know what to do in the other and be able to do it just as well when you conform to that game. Please don't try to correct me over something that I wasn't even arguing over. Obviously the games are going to have differences...
Well i was just saying that a lot of things between Brood War and SC2 don't transfer directly over between one another.
As for PM and Melee, despite it being called "Project Melee", a lot of the timings are very different and there tends to be issues with physics from time to time. Otherwise, the game transfers almost perfectly over. Some characters are almost exactly the same in Project M as they are in Melee (when it comes to their weight/gravity, speed, hitstun, knockback, damage, etc.), like Fox. Although, animation timing can't be changed without being completely being redone so that causes issues with timings. Also, some people say that Shorthop double lasers are easier on PM Fox as opposed to Melee fox, so people who try it in melee will usually have more issues (and most likely find themselves phantasming) if they think it's as easy in Melee as it is in PM. That's the issue with thinking PM techskill will transfer over to Melee techskill
On April 02 2014 00:15 Capricis wrote: What are some good ways to find people near me that play Smash? Is there some sort of community listing? I live in USA, Kentucky.
probably the best place to start when it comes to smash in general. otherwise facebook will help you the most. Almost every region in the US will have a smash community, and if not, then start one yourself. maybe you'll find some people close to you that play smash. But if you're looking for tournament listings, smashboards is where you'll find them all. There's a subtopic in the forums labled "Regional Zones" or "Regional Tournaments" or something under tournament listings. If you wanna find a tournament near home, look around there
On April 19 2014 20:38 phantaxx wrote: I just started playing this game about 2 days ago and have a couple control questions, do players typically jump with X/Y, or up on the control stick? Also, I'm playing on emulator with GC controller so I have to set the controls myself, and I'm not sure whether L and R are supposed to be set to the triggers pressed all the way until they click, or the triggers just slightly pressed in.
Players will typically jump with the X button because it's a lot closer to the B button and C stick, not only that but for most players it will feel natural than the y button.
Most players jump with Y. Y is closer to B so that information is wrong. Y also allows you to hit B without crossing over A to do harder laser/shine techs.
Hey I have a question for a experienced Melee player. I currently have a friend that I constantly play with lately he's been playing Marth and I play Pichu. I've been having a lot of troubling with the spacing and being killed when I have low damage by his side smash (Bad DI on my part I'm sure) and am currently only winning about 20% of the games we play.
Do you guys have any tips for me on how to improve?
On April 23 2014 04:05 Rhodesian wrote: Hey I have a question for a experienced Melee player. I currently have a friend that I constantly play with lately he's been playing Marth and I play Pichu. I've been having a lot of troubling with the spacing and being killed when I have low damage by his side smash (Bad DI on my part I'm sure) and am currently only winning about 20% of the games we play.
Do you guys have any tips for me on how to improve?
1) DI better 2) Don't pick Pichu and expect to win
On April 23 2014 04:05 Rhodesian wrote: Hey I have a question for a experienced Melee player. I currently have a friend that I constantly play with lately he's been playing Marth and I play Pichu. I've been having a lot of troubling with the spacing and being killed when I have low damage by his side smash (Bad DI on my part I'm sure) and am currently only winning about 20% of the games we play.
Do you guys have any tips for me on how to improve?
Starting from the barebone basics, know your strengths and weaknesses
pichu has a great up+b recovery, a good nair, a good uair and a good dsmash. The rest of his moveset kind of sucks though
So make good use of these tools. Space a ton and then get into his face with your aerials when he whiffs. Marth is easily juggled so take advantage of that, especialy uair OOS and nairOOS
Nairplaning is pretty common with pichu sandbagging
On April 23 2014 04:05 Rhodesian wrote: Hey I have a question for a experienced Melee player. I currently have a friend that I constantly play with lately he's been playing Marth and I play Pichu. I've been having a lot of troubling with the spacing and being killed when I have low damage by his side smash (Bad DI on my part I'm sure) and am currently only winning about 20% of the games we play.
Do you guys have any tips for me on how to improve?
I play Pichu because I like a challenge and generally enjoy playing low tier characters. In addition to this if I play a high tier or a mid tier character I almost always beat my friend and that isn't really fun for either of us. For instance when I play Sheik vs his Marth I haven't yet lost and we've played 30 or so games.
I currently play Yoshi/Pichu/Mr.Game and Watch/Mewtwo/Roy and Kirby if I'm feeling sadistic
So I have been watching some Pikachu players videos on youtube. Why do they never use that down b when the opponent is above them or on the platform above them
On April 24 2014 15:03 Orcasgt24 wrote: So I have been watching some Pikachu players videos on youtube. Why do they never use that down b when the opponent is above them or on the platform above them
it's laggy as heeeeeeeeeeeeeeell
if they dodge it (and it's easy to dodge if they're not in hitstun) they get a free punish on you. might be safe on some slower characters' shields if they're on the top platform or something
it's reasonable to combo into though, after upsmash or an upair chain; maybe?? even as an edgeguard if you predict their recovery
On April 24 2014 15:03 Orcasgt24 wrote: So I have been watching some Pikachu players videos on youtube. Why do they never use that down b when the opponent is above them or on the platform above them
thunder is a veerrryy slow move, wont kill unless theyre at a fairly high % + you hit with the shock from pika's body (rather than just the lightning bolt). If they're on the platform above you, uair -> combo. Or just nair for kill if they're high %, much faster.
No idea where this belongs but figured I might as well just ask here instead of making a new thread for this or completly ignoring this until weekend.
So basicly whenever I'm plaiyng on my laptop I've got massive performance problems ever since this morning. Never has been an issue before, I haven't changed anything (as far as I know) but playing is like playing in training with the time set to 1/2 (everything is super slow) and the music is equally distorted.
Just wanted to know real quick if someone else got the same problem. I've checked out all kinds of stuff, shut off everything else, unplugged internet to make sure everything's down and nothing changed. That's when I realized I had an windows-update, so I rebooted, the thing updated and I thought that may have been the cause. After reboot still the same issues though. I do realize that it's somewhat unlikely to be the cause but I'm a little buisy right now and this will have to wait for the weekend, but figured asking if someone else had the same issue, no matter how unlikely, won't hurt
you can't do anything but jump and grab (and roll/dodge) out of shield
the normal way to downsmash out of shield is letting go of shield with peach you can do a really quick double jump, which will let you land on the ground. ->no shield ->downsmash (or you wavedash out)
if you have trouble double jumping fast enough, you can slide your thumb from Y to X; since they're both jump inputs, it's a pretty decent way to get consistent insta-doublejumps in case you're not as fast/consistent with your normal jump method.
also jab and fc nair out of shield are probably more important than d-smash, but i'm not a Peach main, so.
On May 01 2014 00:20 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote: you can't do anything but jump and grab (and roll/dodge) out of shield
the normal way to downsmash out of shield is letting go of shield with peach you can do a really quick double jump, which will let you land on the ground. ->no shield ->downsmash (or you wavedash out)
you probably know this, but you can also upsmash and upB out of shield. spacies can shine oos, This is all an extension of jumping out of shield though
Does Rest OHKO every character at 0%? I was watching Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) vs Darrell (Samus) and at one point on Yoshi's Story a Samus with 0% got hit with rest at the center of the stage and was KOed. Samus is one of the heavier toons!
I don't think it OHKOs anyone at 0% on any stage that's not yoshis. Don't quote me on that though, characters like pichu are fucking awful so I'm sure there's exceptions. I don't think it one hits any of the competitive characters unless they specifically DI for death (even then).
I'm trying to incorporate L cancelling into my game. The timing actually becomes easier when you fastfall, which I've also been paying attention to.
Now, if you do an aerial after a fullhop or just generally being higher than a shorthop, how do you know whether you still have to L cancel? I'll end up with a shield right as I land which can be annoying
On April 29 2014 21:57 Toadesstern wrote: No idea where this belongs but figured I might as well just ask here instead of making a new thread for this or completly ignoring this until weekend.
So basicly whenever I'm plaiyng on my laptop I've got massive performance problems ever since this morning. Never has been an issue before, I haven't changed anything (as far as I know) but playing is like playing in training with the time set to 1/2 (everything is super slow) and the music is equally distorted.
Just wanted to know real quick if someone else got the same problem. I've checked out all kinds of stuff, shut off everything else, unplugged internet to make sure everything's down and nothing changed. That's when I realized I had an windows-update, so I rebooted, the thing updated and I thought that may have been the cause. After reboot still the same issues though. I do realize that it's somewhat unlikely to be the cause but I'm a little buisy right now and this will have to wait for the weekend, but figured asking if someone else had the same issue, no matter how unlikely, won't hurt
Win7 64bit version btw.
Maybe malware? Is it only when you're playing smash or also during other progs/games?
On May 04 2014 14:06 Xeofreestyler wrote: I'm trying to incorporate L cancelling into my game. The timing actually becomes easier when you fastfall, which I've also been paying attention to.
Now, if you do an aerial after a fullhop or just generally being higher than a shorthop, how do you know whether you still have to L cancel? I'll end up with a shield right as I land which can be annoying
Just an issue of experience in knowing when your attack animation ends. In general if you're fastfalling it most moves will require L-canceling from a full hop height but it's not always the case.
If you're doing any of Ness's moves from a full hop height after fastfalling you'll have to L-cancel them. Since you're Ness and you'll be double jump canceling a lot of your aerials this is even more true. The only time you wouldn't is from a full hop rising/non fastfall aerial, in which case it'd probably autocancel.
I dunno I never fooled around with that stuff lol just played a lot
I know very little but from what I've picked up it seems that Roy's moveset is indeed very similar to Marth, but every single one of his moves is pretty much slightly worse than Marth.
On May 05 2014 01:38 DropBear wrote: Nooby question. Why is Roy so unused and ranking so low in the tier list when Marth is right near the top? I thought they were kinda similar :3
more detailed answer:
- strongest part of marth's sword is the tip. strongest part of roy's is near the hilt. completely negates the point of having a long sword when you're supposed to fight up close with it. (bonus: there's a spot up close that has no hitbox so if you're too close roy misses completely)
- the non-tip of marth's hitboxes is still very good for comboing, edgeguarding etc. roy's non-hilt hitboxes are a dry pool noodle and don't do shit
- marth has lower gravity which lets him string together more aerial moves and have better aerial horizontal mobility and recovery. roy falls really fast (like 5th fastest in the game or something) so on top of not having any aerial combos in the first place, even if he did he couldn't string them together. and his recovery is ass.
- marth runs faster
- roy's aerials are complete garbage. a roy hilt (sweetspot) hitbox is usually worse than a marth hilt (non-sweetspot) hitbox in terms of both combo potential and knockback (!)
- as a result this guy can't combo for shit and has awful kill moves and edgeguard options in comparison
basically Roy is just bad, which is fitting since he's terrible in his Fire Emblem game too. maybe if his sword could heal or shoot ranged attacks like it could in that game...
On May 05 2014 01:38 DropBear wrote: Nooby question. Why is Roy so unused and ranking so low in the tier list when Marth is right near the top? I thought they were kinda similar :3
- strongest part of marth's sword is the tip. strongest part of roy's is near the hilt. completely negates the point of having a long sword when you're supposed to fight up close with it. (bonus: there's a spot up close that has no hitbox so if you're too close roy misses completely)
- the non-tip of marth's hitboxes is still very good for comboing, edgeguarding etc. roy's non-hilt hitboxes are a dry pool noodle and don't do shit
- marth has lower gravity which lets him string together more aerial moves and have better aerial horizontal mobility and recovery. roy falls really fast (like 5th fastest in the game or something) so on top of not having any aerial combos in the first place, even if he did he couldn't string them together. and his recovery is ass.
- marth runs faster
- roy's aerials are complete garbage. a roy hilt (sweetspot) hitbox is usually worse than a marth hilt (non-sweetspot) hitbox in terms of both combo potential and knockback (!)
- as a result this guy can't combo for shit and has awful kill moves and edgeguard options in comparison
basically Roy is just bad, which is fitting since he's terrible in his Fire Emblem game too. maybe if his sword could heal or shoot ranged attacks like it could in that game...
is there a way to make gamecube controllers work on the newer wii? From what ive read there are two kinds of Wii's, the one with the gamecube compatibility and the one without and I happen to have the one that doesnt have compatibility. Would getting something like a mayflash adapter and plugging in gamecube controllers work on this new wii or does there need to be some sort of driver to recognize the controllers?
edit: i did some research and turns out it works. the two most commonly used adapters seem to be mayflash and raphnet. anyone have any experience with these? which has less delay? is the delay noticeable?
anyway, mayflash seems to be the adapter of choice for people plugging their gamecube controllers into PC to use dolphin, so I suspect the delay is relatively unnoticeable
no theres two different versions of the wii RVL-001 was the original wii with gamecube support and the flap with the gamecube controller ports. RVL-101 (the one i have) is a wii released in 2011 with no gamecube support. gamecube discs do not read and there are no controller ports.
i don't think there is a possibility to use gc-controllers on the miniWii thingie...
There are adapters for PC and i heard something about a WiiU adapter (don't know wether it's being developed or is already out). Haven't heard anything about the Wii though and i doubt the PC adapters work.
On May 07 2014 18:30 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote: i don't think there is a possibility to use gc-controllers on the miniWii thingie...
There are adapters for PC and i heard something about a WiiU adapter (don't know wether it's being developed or is already out). Haven't heard anything about the Wii though and i doubt the PC adapters work.
There is actually! theres a mayflash adapter that you plug into your wiimote and from there it goes over to the gamecube controller so its still wireless and there may be issues with delays and lag but I wont really know till I try it out I guess
On May 07 2014 18:32 ]343[ wrote: wow, new wiis must suck
They do suck T_T apparently the old wii cost more to produce because of hardware costs so nintendo decided to take it out and make a "family edition" (gamecube support not family safe apparently!!!) I would feel scammed if I didn't get this wii for free
On May 07 2014 19:06 JohnChoi wrote: There is actually! theres a mayflash adapter that you plug into your wiimote and from there it goes over to the gamecube controller so its still wireless and there may be issues with delays and lag but I wont really know till I try it out I guess
On March 21 2014 02:15 YokaY wrote: Is there a small delay to when you can input things after wavedashing?
I wanna blame my emulator/controller but maybe i'm just remembering wrong.
There's a couple frames of standard landing lag
My follow up question is, is there normally an input buffer when you wavesmash? Or do you just have to time after your landing lag?
from what I've heard is that wavedashing takes exactly 10 frames to complete, so you have to wait until the wavedash animation is nearly completed for the smash to go through.
Is it just pure unmatched skill when Armada gets peach to hover just above the stage or is there technique to this wisdom? I am haplessly attempting to do this when I should be trying to learn how to wavedash, perhaps telling me would hinder my progress to inevitable conquest of MLG Smash events the world over kindergarten age children after I Getz destroyed by normal people flying casual!
On May 09 2014 11:29 Alakaslam wrote: So, super simple or maybe not so simple:
Is it just pure unmatched skill when Armada gets peach to hover just above the stage or is there technique to this wisdom? I am haplessly attempting to do this when I should be trying to learn how to wavedash, perhaps telling me would hinder my progress to inevitable conquest of MLG Smash events the world over kindergarten age children after I Getz destroyed by normal people flying casual!
Funnily enough, if you were trying to learn how to wavedash you would get this to happen Holding down then pressing and holding jump gets you to float at ground level. Happens often when you try to wavedash because down angles also are read as down.
On May 09 2014 11:29 Alakaslam wrote: So, super simple or maybe not so simple:
Is it just pure unmatched skill when Armada gets peach to hover just above the stage or is there technique to this wisdom? I am haplessly attempting to do this when I should be trying to learn how to wavedash, perhaps telling me would hinder my progress to inevitable conquest of MLG Smash events the world over kindergarten age children after I Getz destroyed by normal people flying casual!
Funnily enough, if you were trying to learn how to wavedash you would get this to happen Holding down then pressing and holding jump gets you to float at ground level. Happens often when you try to wavedash because down angles also are read as down.
This is victory
I am therefore much more a peach player than before with this wisdom- folks said learning to wavedash is an art to practice using Luigi (a character of whom I am fond, as the youngest and tied for tallest brother in my family ) therefore...
When I'm (trying to) pivotgrab with Marth for chaingrabbing purposes and end up with running grab animation instead of stand-grab animation I'm doing it wrong, right? So am I hitting Z too fast after hitting jump if that happens to me? If I try to make it a little later I usually just end up jumping...
Would just like to know if the problem is what I think it is
alot of people still jump with their pivot grabs; it loses you a frame i think, but should yield a dashdance jc grab if you slightly miss the pivot timing, which is better than a dashdance running grab.
The term "pivot grab" is used by Melee players to refer to a different technique: using a jump-cancelled grab while dash dancing.
I just saw it being called pivot grab anyways so figured I should just call it that way as well, guess I was wrong So what I do is dash away, tap inwards, jump, grab and on very rare occasitions it works the way it is supposed to but I usually just do a running grab
a true pivot grab takes advantage of the single frame where you're standing during a dashdance (you can pivot -> anything that you can do from a standing position)
but yeah dashdance jc grab can probably work too in most situations
On May 12 2014 04:43 ]343[ wrote: a true pivot grab takes advantage of the single frame where you're standing during a dashdance (you can pivot -> anything that you can do from a standing position)
but yeah dashdance jc grab can probably work too in most situations
The pivot grab for Marth is somewhat important in chaingrabbing spacies iirc, esp. on FD. There's a point where, if your opponent is good, you have to pivot grab to continue the chain. M2K does this often vs spaces on FD.
On May 12 2014 06:46 hariooo wrote: just pivot shield grab it's 20 times easier unless you need the specific jc or true pivot timing.
Pivot grabbing usually refers to turning around with a JC grab. It's not a true pivot and honestly, it doesn't have to be. Keep it consistent.
You won't be able to shield grab in the true chaingrab against spacies as Marth. In fact, you only have about 2 frames of leeway at certain %s, for instance vs Falco at 19% with No DI.
There's no secret to it. Practice it without an opponent. Get a feel for how far you can dash before JC grabbing backwards stops working. It's about 1/2 ~ 2/3rds of the complete dash length. You can do it at any point in your dash before that.
It's the hardest part of the chaingrab honestly. Mid level spacies will always try to punish you with no DI and a shine, because they also know that it's a difficult thing to do.
Pivots aren't very hard to do. Just learn the timing. What's hard is using them effectively, like the situation mentioned above, where you have to do them very fast and on reaction.
I can L-cancel, wave dash, waveland, etc pretty consistantly, but every now and then i'll fuck up while I'm doing, say, wavedashes, consecutively. I'm pressing the combos the same way, but I tend to hold the analog button in the direction I want to go in. Is it better to just do X+Down diagonal +R --> hold analog, or to repeat the entire combo?
On May 19 2014 10:21 iaeuy wrote: What are the advantages/disadvantages of Marth's fsmash vs shield breaker when edge guarding?
shield breaker you only want to use when they're at the right distance that they can't possibly get past the hitbox, because charging it makes you immobile and completely committed to your position
So my roommate plays samus with no wavedashing or L canceling. I play falcon and puff with shuffling, wavedashing, and wave landing and I am pretty consistent with all of these. I basically beat him every time with my puff and I used to beat him super bad with my falcon until he started implementing massive amounts of spot dodging into his gameplay and now he beats my falcon almost every game. I cant approach with either a fair, stomp, or a grab because he will just spot dodge it and then hit me. I try using Nair for its 2 hits and Vulcan Thrust for its weird timing but the nair is really hard to space and usually I get hit with a missile or up tilt while the vulcan thrust becomes predictable fast and gives him a free punish if it doesn't go off. How do I fight a stationaryish samus who spot dodges all of my attacks and downsmashes, ftilts, fsmahses, or uptilts to punish?
also mix in tomahawks (instead of landing with an aerial, land without doing anything, wait for the spotdodge, and grab him/do some other move to punish).
samus with no l-cancelling is vaguely believable, but samus with no wavedashing?? how does he space? how does he even move? /appalled
On May 19 2014 18:49 puppykiller wrote: So my roommate plays samus with no wavedashing or L canceling. I play falcon and puff with shuffling, wavedashing, and wave landing and I am pretty consistent with all of these. I basically beat him every time with my puff and I used to beat him super bad with my falcon until he started implementing massive amounts of spot dodging into his gameplay and now he beats my falcon almost every game. I cant approach with either a fair, stomp, or a grab because he will just spot dodge it and then hit me. I try using Nair for its 2 hits and Vulcan Thrust for its weird timing but the nair is really hard to space and usually I get hit with a missile or up tilt while the vulcan thrust becomes predictable fast and gives him a free punish if it doesn't go off. How do I fight a stationaryish samus who spot dodges all of my attacks and downsmashes, ftilts, fsmahses, or uptilts to punish?
Sounds like basically you're having neutral game issues
3 basics and fundamentals - space, bait and punish
1. Space your aerial approaches in such a way that it makes it hard for him to punish you when you throw them (i.e not landing in his face) - Lcancelling and running away, gentleman followjups etc also help
2. Bait out counterattacks or bad spacing from him by using falcons speed, dashdancing, wavelanding etc.
3. Punish him hard with falcon combos once you have baited out the spot dodge/bad movement etc.
just stand outside his range and wait for the spot dodge lol. since he doesn't wavedash the only offensive option he has from there is dash attack which you can shieldgrab on reaction
On May 20 2014 02:48 ]343[ wrote: also mix in tomahawks (instead of landing with an aerial, land without doing anything, wait for the spotdodge, and grab him/do some other move to punish).
samus with no l-cancelling is vaguely believable, but samus with no wavedashing?? how does he space? how does he even move? /appalled
On May 20 2014 06:06 Count9 wrote: puff samus is also like... 99-1 matchup.
meh, more like 65-35
samus has charge shot and ok-ish anti-airs also if you get ridiculous grabs like Duck you can do pretty well :
ofc you have to wavedash out of shield and such to play vs puff pressure lol
i dunno... it feels harder than sheik samus tbh and that match up is at least 65-35. I think it's the hardest match up that isn't literally impossible. Granted, roy shiek is supposed to be literally impossible and I've seen people lose that.
Which segues well into my next point. Set aside some time to practice your fucking chain grabs. You're gonna meet that one guy at locals who sucks but doesn't agree to no chain grabs in a shiek ditto and roll you when you're starting out, it's not worth the grief. Especially if you play a mid tier character. Ganon should be chain grabbing shiek whenever he can, same with mario, and everyone can chaingrab fox cause fox. Practice the super cheap stuff cause it's better you know it and don't use it than not knowing it and can't use it.
Also, don't underestimate people with no tech. The whole purpose of tech skill is so you can make your character do optimal things in a given situation. Spamming wave lands on platforms above a marth cause it's fun is the worst thing you can possibly do yet people do it cause they just learned how to waveland. At the end of the day this game is all about spacing and reading, tech skill just gives you more options to get good spacing or punish good reads.
For me (a low-level Samus main), scariest characters to face, in order, are: Sheik, Puff, Falcon, Marth, Ganon, Peach
ofc I haven't really played many spacies who are my level (either they do a lot of punishable "shield pressure" or are way better than me), so I have no idea how scared I should be of them
how come vgbootcamp is streaming but tl doesn't tell me this?
also my friend has had melee less than a week and he is trying to learn it to a high standard and i am not sure the best things to be telling him to focus on or who to play at the start. For the most part i was showing him tech skill and then going slightly KO mad with power He is pretty used to fighting games and he reached a pretty high level in street fighter 4.
Someone with calendar privs has to update the calendar manually iirc. And falco samus is hard according to pp and fox samus is even according to me (best samus I've played was rat in friendlies tho in michigan(?) or maybe it was chicago, I can't remember and I don't even play fox :D)
I'd have your friend try out falco, his shine combos are pretty similar to "regular" FGC combos. Still start with the tech things everyone starts with though: shffl across stage with all your moves, max wd distance, wd oos as fast as possible, cut down on lag after landing, platform manuverability, and ledge teching, in that order imo. Then it's just stringing together the tech into combos but that kinda just naturally happens.
spacies are basically even for samus. i have more issues with falco but its because i suck and i dont do the correct things
worst matchups are sheik puff and falcon. i dont have as much problems with marth and peach except for my tendency to get hit by predictable fsmashes which happens to me regardless of my character
Anyone can submit calendar events - they just have to be approved, so do it a couple days in advance.
That said, it'd be really nice if streams like vgbc and whatnot got added to the featured streamers or something. I think Ken and KDJ are the only two smash streams featured on TL so far.
On May 22 2014 01:29 Hot_Bid wrote: why is this game so ahrd
The worst part is the more you play and better you get, the harder you realize it is. People don't realize how big the gap is between them and top players until they are already pretty good players. On top of taking 1-2 years to learn to control your character, you actually have to learn to play the game after that haha
On May 22 2014 04:13 BlackPride wrote: what are sheik's worst matchups?
I'd say in descending order, Fox, ICs, Falco/Jiggs
Peach if you are playing PAL. But in NTSC, Fox is the main one Sheiks hate, and ICs are also quite hard to play against because you have to play so patient and camp platforms for days.
good to know. because I am struggling with sheiks and am needing to pick up a alternate to deal with it. So falco/puff are slightly favored against sheik?
I don't know for sure but I will say this. A lot of Sheik players dislike those matchups, especially the Puff one. It might be because Puff is not a common character and they lack the experience. Sheik is also heavily reliant on her grab game, but Puff can crouch under grabs and punish them with rest. Falco seems good against Sheik to me, but Sheik is arguably the best ledge guarder in the game, so you have to be good at playing safe and not getting gimped to play the matchup.
It really depends how good you are. Most of the sheiks i know REALLY struggled against falcos until you get a lot better at the game and learn how to handle the neutral game (because a default flowchart basically shuts down your entire spacing/baiting which is basically the main sheik "approach") That and punish game on falco is probably the most difficult due to obnoxious tech rolls and how badly you get punished for missing
Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope.
On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope.
Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player.
Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed.
On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope.
Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player.
Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed.
Gotta agree with this. I play Falcon and I've been getting boned by Sheiks for years. But finally I'm pretty good at the matchup and it's helped my game a ton.
Puff vs sheik seems easy until you run into sheiks who actually know the matchup. If you really want to play the matchup though you need to learn all the tricks. You can crouch->rest a lot of sheiks options (including grab) but a smart sheik will start using more downsmashes if they see you crouching too much. Also make sure to always DI her down throw away and then after the throw DI up because you know the fair is coming if it's a good sheik (its guaranteed). Almost never do any other di vs downthrow as upair kills at much lower percentage on most stages.
Also be careful crossing up her shield as she can jump out nair super quickly, try to never land near her if you can help it. Edge guarding her is weird until you realize you can just take ledge and rest her when she lands on stage. Also don't be afraid to jump out of shield and rest forward smash (yes I know it's a bad move but sheik's finger flub too sometimes ;p). Basically just learn which options of hers to respect and which to rest ;P
On May 23 2014 06:33 ShrieK wrote: It happens when you fall off the platform backward and have your shield up. If you let go of your shield sooner it won't happen.
There is no trick that i'm aware of, but hey, i still learn new stuff every once in a while :D
Until then, grinding it is! But you should be able to get the hang of it after a while
While you're practicing, you can change the angle you hold the controlstick in. While you need to hold almost horizontally to do one with perfect lenght, it is much easier and less frustrating, if you hold it down a little. It won't change the timing, but it'll be more forgiving and still very useful if you miss the perfect window.
The ultimate goal should be perfect wavelanding though. Amsa style.
With Falco I like to shine first then double jump waveland when I'm practicing. You'll do that a lot anyway and it feels easier to waveland with his double jump than his full hop. Vary up the shine heights so you can hit both grounded and platformed opponents with it.
On May 23 2014 18:33 Hot_Bid wrote: is there any trick to wavelanding on platforms and general platform movement other than simply just grinding it over and over?
You can always doublejump the same distance below the platform so that you can press L/R with the normal wavedash timing and waveland on the platform. This works for almost every situation. Sometimes you need to just be as fast as possible, for example with Fox in some situations in stages like battlefield, you might need to up tilt -> double jump on the topmost platform -> waveland -> instantly doublejump as soon as you fall off the platform in order to catch the opponent in time uair. In that case you just need to doublejump so that you maintain the highest vertical speed. Another is if you as Falco for example need to first move a relatively large distance forward before for example wavelanding backwards into bair(Say you're in the very middle of battlefield, dash short hop left and then after a while doublejump and then waveland backwards for a bair.).
Grinding is necessary but doublejump timing is the easiest trick I can think of for most scenarios.
On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope.
Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player.
Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed.
yeah I understand this. but honestly, I'm not really enjoying playing samus much more at this point anyways. I mostly picked her up just to beat my friend who thinks he's good in the ditto. I've been wanting a change for a while. So I play falcon a lot (who doesn't?) and im also enjoying puff and falco. Puff for floaties, and falco for fastfallers. so I guess my question is just who's better against sheik? And is this puff/falco dual main a good idea?
On May 23 2014 18:33 Hot_Bid wrote: is there any trick to wavelanding on platforms and general platform movement other than simply just grinding it over and over?
On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope.
Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player.
Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed.
yeah I understand this. but honestly, I'm not really enjoying playing samus much more at this point anyways. I mostly picked her up just to beat my friend who thinks he's good in the ditto. I've been wanting a change for a while. So I play falcon a lot (who doesn't?) and im also enjoying puff and falco. Puff for floaties, and falco for fastfallers. so I guess my question is just who's better against sheik? And is this puff/falco dual main a good idea?
I play a lot vs Puff and a bit vs Falco. I'd say, play to your strengths. If you read really well, go with Puff and rest the shit out of them. You'll lose a bunch of games while trying to figure out how to rest right, but nothing is more satisfying than resting through half of Sheik's moves. Plus Puff's edge game really negates a lot of Sheik's edge game. If you play more technically, go with Falco. Falco is so hard to approach as Sheik. You basically pray to get close enough for a grab or get them off stage and needle/edge guard. But playing vs Falco on Final D is the stuff of nightmares.
On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope.
Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player.
Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed.
yeah I understand this. but honestly, I'm not really enjoying playing samus much more at this point anyways. I mostly picked her up just to beat my friend who thinks he's good in the ditto. I've been wanting a change for a while. So I play falcon a lot (who doesn't?) and im also enjoying puff and falco. Puff for floaties, and falco for fastfallers. so I guess my question is just who's better against sheik? And is this puff/falco dual main a good idea?
I play a lot vs Puff and a bit vs Falco. I'd say, play to your strengths. If you read really well, go with Puff and rest the shit out of them. You'll lose a bunch of games while trying to figure out how to rest right, but nothing is more satisfying than resting through half of Sheik's moves. Plus Puff's edge game really negates a lot of Sheik's edge game. If you play more technically, go with Falco. Falco is so hard to approach as Sheik. You basically pray to get close enough for a grab or get them off stage and needle/edge guard. But playing vs Falco on Final D is the stuff of nightmares.
ok yeah that makes sense. good advice, I think i'll go with puff. Thanks for the help everybody.
Falco and Jigglypuff are very different characters. Personally I feel like your playstyle can really work with only one of them. I guess Mango's kind of an exception but still, you shouldn't need the help of anyone else to choose between those 2, it should come naturally.
I think that Jigglypuff is very easy to "noobstomp" with but the border from low level to medium level is enormous whereas with Falco you can get far with just mechanics. Reading people also is far more difficult than you'd think because in SSBM you can be so safe even if you're read perfectly(Depending on character).
Against Sheik in specific, I'd go with Falco but that's probably just me and I've never been that great at Jigglypuff(Although I can play every character at a decent level). You can do very well just with good laser usage and playing safely, with an emphasis of staying near the middle of the stage. Really, if you remove gimp backthrow kills, in my opinion Falco-Sheik is like 65-35 for Falco or more. It's incredibly difficult for Sheik to get anything done if Falco is able to consistently laser so low that Sheik cannot dash under them and time lasers to catch Sheik while landing from jump. Every single hit also can lead into 50%+.
Sheik vs Jigglypuff in my opinion is one of the more underrated matchups in the game. In PAL Sheik can chainthrow Jigglypuff decently with dash attack boost grab for a while and her aerials are comparable with Jigglypuff's. While in PAL I feel like Jigglypuff still has a minor advantage, I would say that it's much more difficult to play at that level as Jigglypuff than it is as Falco.
About Samus, though, I think that she's very underrated. Please learn SHFF missiles. It's perhaps the most difficult tech in the game but it's absolutely amazingly powerful. Basically, short hop and at the peak, smash down and immediately to the side + B. You will fastfall and immediately after fire a smash missile immediately before hitting ground. I believe you have 1-2 frames to do it but I've been able to get it down pretty consistently without even maining Samus. There's just a simple trick movement that you do and after you master it you get it down every single time. In my opinion, Samus is currently perhaps the most undiscovered character in the game and as said, I believe that she's extremely underrated(This is perhaps her strongest trick that's perfectly doable in fight yet I've NEVER seen ANYONE do it, tournament or casuals).
Behind the SHFF missile you can wavedash ftilt, grab, continue spamming the missiles by hopping back and forth and pretending you're Falco, or perhaps dash in, wavedash back and see how the opponent reacts. Samus's playstyle in general is based around crouch canceling and other defensive manouvers, spacing with her wonderful ftilt and punishing with fsmash. Down smash and downtilt are combo starters and CCC tools. Most of her best stuff comes from her missiles.
Keep in mind that you can experiment a little, for example at high-ish %s dtilt -> jump -> bomb -> nair is a true combo vs fastfallers.
On May 23 2014 18:33 Hot_Bid wrote: is there any trick to wavelanding on platforms and general platform movement other than simply just grinding it over and over?
I don't know how much you know about the game, but you should watch this quick 40 second video: + Show Spoiler +
Does anything need to be added to the OP? I havent been in here a whole lot recently so I havent really been checking to see if any new FAQs are popping up
On May 25 2014 00:33 Count9 wrote: just do the waveland when you're halfway through the platform. if you're waiting to be above the platform it's usually too slow to be useful
You really cannot do it visually or it's not going to work, assuming you're wavelanding while going upwards on a lower platform.. Before you even jump, you need to know when you're going to press what.
By the way, I think that the biggest problem with newer players is that they wait around too much, for example after a wavedash or SHFFL. It's far more effective to be on the move right away. This is perhaps the biggest thing mechanically that seperates mediocre players from decent players.
So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
On May 28 2014 10:08 Epishade wrote: So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
Thanks.
1. most people Z grab. light shielding comes up if you try to press Z too soon during another animation (ie. landing lag, attack animation, whatever). Z is basically just a macro for (light) R/L + A at the same time, so the A won't register during lag animation and the light press remains afterward
2. there's a "trick" if you use your thumb nail and slide it off the edge of the button but i wouldn't recommend using it because it's slow and bad. just practice and you'll get it it becomes intuitive for sure
3. you can use whatever. i use L because that's where the Z button was in '64
4. A button is faster for when you want fastest possible aerial (ie. instant uair oos), since it's way closer to the jump buttons. most of the time though you don't need it. c-stick is good because it allows you full control over your aerial momentum and your fastfall timing. you can do a dair then delay the fastfall (controlstick + A will autofastfall you), you can run at someone with a bair or retreat with a fair (great for marth), you can do instant-fastfall uair (also great for marth). i'm pretty sure most people do a hybrid style because of being used to control sticking certain aerials but definitely be able to recognize situations where you want to do either one and adapt to it
On May 25 2014 00:33 Count9 wrote: just do the waveland when you're halfway through the platform. if you're waiting to be above the platform it's usually too slow to be useful
You really cannot do it visually or it's not going to work, assuming you're wavelanding while going upwards on a lower platform.. Before you even jump, you need to know when you're going to press what.
By the way, I think that the biggest problem with newer players is that they wait around too much, for example after a wavedash or SHFFL. It's far more effective to be on the move right away. This is perhaps the biggest thing mechanically that seperates mediocre players from decent players.
Sure, eventually it's muscle memory but at the beginning it's useful to see where your character is to know how soon you need to start the waveland.
And yeah, l-cancel into nothing or missed aerial into instant shield slow new players soooooo much it's ridiculous. The exercise I do with ppl who want to learn to get into tourney scene is I sit in shield and they do frame advantage aerials on my shield and have to immediately do a dashdance grab while I sit there spamming shield grab. Gets rid of the aerial into nothing or aerial into instant shield problem pretty fast. (also teaches delayed aerials, which is another thing newbies get wrong. Every aerial at the exact same time cause that's what they practiced against CPUs) Actually, the whole concept of dash dancing is pretty foreign to a lot of people I've found, especially starcraft friends who think it's the same as box spam (i.e. useless apm spam to warm hands).
Ofc, new players also don't know when to just do nothing. The most heinous is fox/marth players that get a uair at mid %s and for some reason they just have to waste double jump to try to reach the guy instead of letting gravity do the work while cutting off options. I dunno, there's just a million things new players do wrong that it's really hard to be general, gotta have tapes.
On May 28 2014 12:43 Count9 wrote: Ofc, new players also don't know when to just do nothing. The most heinous is fox/marth players that get a uair at mid %s and for some reason they just have to waste double jump to try to reach the guy instead of letting gravity do the work while cutting off options. I dunno, there's just a million things new players do wrong that it's really hard to be general, gotta have tapes.
And then slightly-better players who punish those bad habits with bad habits of their own (like always double jump dairing after getting juggled) and so on
On May 28 2014 10:08 Epishade wrote: So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
Thanks.
You might want to use the Y button instead of the X button. It's just preference, but I find the X button much more inconvenient; it's not as close to the other buttons as the Y button. Anyways, short hopping comes with practice. Try practicing short hopping with fox and you will probably be able to short hop as Marth a lot more easily.
Most people use L or R to l-cancel. I use the L button, but a few use the Z button. I believe Hungrybox does.
Marth's neutral air auto-cancels, so you don't l-cancel that move. You do fast-fall it so that you land right after the nair's second slash.
I use c-stick for most of my aerials. When I do short-hop double fairs as Marth I use the A button. C-stick won't work for that except if done using a claw-grip.
Picked up Zelda for PM and I'm having trouble playing against spacies like Fox and Falco. Any idea how to approach the match-up or should I just go back to Sheik for those two specifically?
Huh, I thought PM Zelda has a good matchup vs spacies? Especially if they do bad shield pressure, just fair/bair or maybe upsmash them out of shield lol
On May 28 2014 10:08 Epishade wrote: So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
Thanks.
For short hopping, you just press the button and then let go of the button. Some people like to "flick" it or whatever but that just hurts my thumb and is completely unnecessary. Some people just have problems with 4 frame jumpers but as Marth is a 5-frame jumper you should have no issues.
I have always used X and find Y completely unberably awkward to use. It's just preference. When I can do JC shines going from X to B with Fox I doubt you need to get there any faster than that anyway and it gives automatic perfect timing for both that and SHDL.
I use C-stick left for practically all aerials. It's easy to even do backwards short hopping double fairs with Marth with that. Doing backwards jumping double fairs with C-stick right is also possible but significantly more difficult. Which option you use for which aerial when depends on what you need to do. As a general rule of thumb, if you need full movement forward when doing a backward aerial or visa versa, you should use C-stick. Personally, I use C-stick whenever possible because it gives you more control. This practically means that the only time I use A-button for aerials is for nair and for something like SHFFL Bair when I'm moving to the left and need the aerial out asap(right direction C-stick is too slow for me to move to from X to use for that). You can also short hop with control stick diagonally to the left and C-stick to the right for this but I'm not comfortable doing that even though it's technically better.
My current main character is Fox, and usually when I double jump bair, I jump with the control stick. I also jump with control stick when it's a precise uair timing where I need to double jump immediately after leaving the ground, faster than I can double tap X. I also jump with control stick when doing shine -> dj aerial with Falco. With Marth, I jump with the control stick when I for example want to double jump up-left while doing bair(tipper) to the right. I believe that it's important to use control stick properly because using solely the button to jump has its limitations.
Light shielding instead of grabbing happens when you're in whatever type of lag at the moment you press Z. I usually use Z to grab and very rarely get the light shield issue. Still, there's not really that many situations where you want to stand-grab that's not a shield grab. For run-grabbing you shouldn't have the issue of being in lag.
Yeah, SHFFL is completely natural and effortless when you get it down. Less so that wavedashing, though. Especially with Marth SHFFLing is very easy.
By the way, I would concentrate on learning to dash dance properly instead of wavedashing as a beginning Marth player. Being able to move your body such an enormous amount in 1 frame to dodge attacks and counterattack is incredibly powerful. I believe dashdancing in general to be a stronger technique for characters like this as well.
I use R for everything, shield, wavedash, l-cancel. Some people like to use 2 different buttons for shielding/l-canceling and for wavedashing. This is in theory better because it allows you to, for example, go into a precisely-sized light shield out of a shieldwavedash. It's not important enough to me, however, and I'm comfortable with doing it how I do.
so I first got to try out PM and short hopping with fox was really easy. but recently I got melee working on my wii and short hopping with fox is so hard. I looked it up and apparently its a 1 frame difference between brawl fox and melee fox. are there any tips on how to get 4 frame characters to short hop? I've been trying to just grind it out for a couple days now and it sort've feels more consistent but I'm only getting it like.. 20% of the time
There's no trick to fox. You just need to be stupid fast. He's got a bunch of things in the 1-4 frame window (short hop, shine/grab/smash out of shine, double lasers, a bunch of his flashy stalls nobody ever uses because they are risky as fuck)
Can you do it yes or no?If yes, how? this is the "simple questions simple answers" thread not the "simple question sarcastic comment that shows i didn't even read what you wrote properly thread"
i use a GameCube controller for melee but my mayflash adapter to play on pc is in the post and yes i know that playing on something that isn't a crt is bad but it's what i have
ummm.. I don't really know about xbox controllers but I'm assuming they dont have analog L and R? so you probably can't do light shield jump wavedash with same button so you'd probably have to use both shield buttons like L jump wavedash with R?
Can you do it yes or no?If yes, how? this is the "simple questions simple answers" thread not the "simple question sarcastic comment that shows i didn't even read what you wrote properly thread"
i use a GameCube controller for melee but my mayflash adapter to play on pc is in the post and yes i know that playing on something that isn't a crt is bad but it's what i have
If your xbox controller is mapped correctly (have the triggers set up for analog input initially, crossing the threshold simulates the digital button push on a gc controller), then yes, it can be done. Shield with one trigger, then jump and wavedash with a light press on the other trigger.
I couldn't watch day 2 or 3 of mlg ... how can I watch the vods without being spoilered? asking here because I'm afraid of seeing results in the mlg topic
On June 24 2014 04:09 Xeofreestyler wrote: I couldn't watch day 2 or 3 of mlg ... how can I watch the vods without being spoilered? asking here because I'm afraid of seeing results in the mlg topic
Uhh you can't really. I don't think they've uploaded bracket yet but every match has had the player names in it so unless someone makes a Small VOD thread equivalent for smash or a YouTube playlist you're kinda out of luck.
On June 24 2014 10:06 Xeofreestyler wrote: Aww shucks. Will vod links be included in smash liquipedia? Maybe it would be interesting to have a no spoilers option there like in TLPD.
vod links are already included where possible(championship bracket vods aren't up yet)
I've been playing melee competitively for a around a year now as a Falcon/Marth main and have all the basic techs like wavedashing, SHFFLing, wavelanding, OOS techs, etc down, and am now attempting to seriously learn my first spacey and have chosen Fox. The biggest problem I've had is with his drill shine and Nair shine. I can do them consistently, but I'm having a hard time transitioning out of the shine. It feels like I'm movin fast, Nair shine and then am stuck in shine for a few seconds. It seems like Haz cancels part of his shine animation or transitions very fluidly out of it into another combo. How is this done? Jump canceling the shine or just WDing out of it?
Yeah, that's true, but are those the two main options of transitioning out of the shine? I just feel like a shine interrupts my game so much because I don't know how to swiftly follow it up with anything.
Waveshine or waveland out of shine are the usual grounded/platform options because they let you follow up faster. Note that hitting someone with the shine has more lag than a regular shine so you can't jump out of it as quickly as you would in single player mode.
I'm looking for a game with less build up than SC2 or D2 but with equal depth. I'm kind of inspired - watched the documentary etc, but you have to play this game locally? Can you emulate it with a controller and a PC and play online? I don't know anybody who plays and I know my friends wouldn't keep up enough to keep me challenged with local play. If I don't have a close friend who plays a lot to practice with then I'm screwed - right?
On June 26 2014 09:01 bardtown wrote: I'm looking for a game with less build up than SC2 or D2 but with equal depth. I'm kind of inspired - watched the documentary etc, but you have to play this game locally? Can you emulate it with a controller and a PC and play online? I don't know anybody who plays and I know my friends wouldn't keep up enough to keep me challenged with local play. If I don't have a close friend who plays a lot to practice with then I'm screwed - right?
You can play it with an emulator and online, but it's not really the same experience. Even 1/10 of a second of lag is big in Melee. I also don't think it has less build up than SC2, unless you mean that when you press start the game actually starts instead of having to build for 10 minutes (I assume you mean something more like a learning curve).
Melee has an insane amount of depth too it. It's very fun to start learning as a beginner or to improve and perfect your skills as a veteran. There's always gonna be someone better than you.
Hey all, I have a crt monitor with hd 15 (vga) and bnc inputs (the sony multiscan g500) that I just found, and since it's smaller then the monster I'm currently using I would love to be able to connect it.
Is it possible to connect my wii to the monitor without inducing some lag?
On June 26 2014 09:01 bardtown wrote: I'm looking for a game with less build up than SC2 or D2 but with equal depth. I'm kind of inspired - watched the documentary etc, but you have to play this game locally? Can you emulate it with a controller and a PC and play online? I don't know anybody who plays and I know my friends wouldn't keep up enough to keep me challenged with local play. If I don't have a close friend who plays a lot to practice with then I'm screwed - right?
You can play it with an emulator and online, but it's not really the same experience. Even 1/10 of a second of lag is big in Melee. I also don't think it has less build up than SC2, unless you mean that when you press start the game actually starts instead of having to build for 10 minutes (I assume you mean something more like a learning curve).
That is exactly what I mean. I don't like spending 10 minutes executing a build over and over again, or farming lane in Dota 2. Playing with an emulator might be the only way I can get started, even if it does add some lag. I think it could be worth a try
On June 26 2014 09:01 bardtown wrote: I'm looking for a game with less build up than SC2 or D2 but with equal depth. I'm kind of inspired - watched the documentary etc, but you have to play this game locally? Can you emulate it with a controller and a PC and play online? I don't know anybody who plays and I know my friends wouldn't keep up enough to keep me challenged with local play. If I don't have a close friend who plays a lot to practice with then I'm screwed - right?
You can play it with an emulator and online, but it's not really the same experience. Even 1/10 of a second of lag is big in Melee. I also don't think it has less build up than SC2, unless you mean that when you press start the game actually starts instead of having to build for 10 minutes (I assume you mean something more like a learning curve).
That is exactly what I mean. I don't like spending 10 minutes executing a build over and over again, or farming lane in Dota 2. Playing with an emulator might be the only way I can get started, even if it does add some lag. I think it could be worth a try
Word. I think this is a big problem with SC2 because the game often ends in one fight after 10 minutes of building your base.
On June 26 2014 09:01 bardtown wrote: I'm looking for a game with less build up than SC2 or D2 but with equal depth. I'm kind of inspired - watched the documentary etc, but you have to play this game locally? Can you emulate it with a controller and a PC and play online? I don't know anybody who plays and I know my friends wouldn't keep up enough to keep me challenged with local play. If I don't have a close friend who plays a lot to practice with then I'm screwed - right?
The netplay is decent if you play vs people close enough. Sure, not the same thing as offline play, but especially for a newcomer it should be fine. Also, there's a tl skype group for eu netplay, if you're interested.
On June 26 2014 09:01 bardtown wrote: I'm looking for a game with less build up than SC2 or D2 but with equal depth. I'm kind of inspired - watched the documentary etc, but you have to play this game locally? Can you emulate it with a controller and a PC and play online? I don't know anybody who plays and I know my friends wouldn't keep up enough to keep me challenged with local play. If I don't have a close friend who plays a lot to practice with then I'm screwed - right?
The netplay is decent if you play vs people close enough. Sure, not the same thing as offline play, but especially for a newcomer it should be fine. Also, there's a tl skype group for eu netplay, if you're interested.
I'm interested. First I need to figure out what I need to buy etc. I'm guessing a controller is the most important thing, along with some sort of adapter
Edit: let me rephrase that as a few questions. I see there are guides for setting up the emulator etc.
Can I follow this guide? Is this going to give me compatible versions with everybody else from the TL group?
I think I need to buy a controller if I want to have any chance of playing LANs etc. Which should I buy and what kind of adapter do I need?
a source who will remain unnamed claimed that doing a wavedash with a shorthop is different than doing a wavedash with a full jump. is this true? (smashboards provided only some ancient speculative thread :/)
On June 27 2014 19:01 ]343[ wrote: a source who will remain unnamed claimed that doing a wavedash with a shorthop is different than doing a wavedash with a full jump. is this true? (smashboards provided only some ancient speculative thread :/)
it's exactly the same. The air dodge cancels the jump so it doesn't matter if it's full or short.
On June 27 2014 19:01 ]343[ wrote: a source who will remain unnamed claimed that doing a wavedash with a shorthop is different than doing a wavedash with a full jump. is this true? (smashboards provided only some ancient speculative thread :/)
it's exactly the same. The air dodge cancels the jump so it doesn't matter if it's full or short.
There's only one situation that I know of that it's not necessarily the same, and that's with Peach. When wavedashing with Peach you really want to use a short-hop, because if you're holding jump and any downward angle after her jumpsquat frames, you're going to do an instant float instead of the wavedash. You can prevent this by making sure to use more horizontal airdodge angles (which you should be doing most of the time), but it's good to get into the habit of also short-hopping all her wavedashes so the weird instant-floats don't come out accidentally.
I haven't played SC2 since early April this year, how long will it take for me to get back to my skill level? (top 16 GM)
I haven't kept up with the scene much focusing on school and trying to do well on my exams. Could anyone suggest some builds for each matchup?
I did these builds last time I played in like April, could anyone clarify if they're still good, and perhaps suggest something even better, newer that is in the metagame? The "hottest build" right now?
PvT: I did zealot/stalker/msc opener into like 6 gate blink that made terrans rage. or I would do 4 gate blink off the two bases into like chargelot archon... cant remember the player who did that build all the time. :/
PvZ: I used to do this thing like 1 gate fe into 3 gates + forge + attack upgrade, then i would pressure into fast third base at 7 mins and I would do a quick blink attack off 3 bases with sentries, +2, and lots of blink stalkers, kinda like how Parting does it.
PvP: I used to do 4 gate blink, like 3 stalker rush into twilight, 2 more gates, and would attack.
On June 29 2014 04:11 ill_mind wrote: I haven't played SC2 since early April this year, how long will it take for me to get back to my skill level? (top 16 GM)
I haven't kept up with the scene much focusing on school and trying to do well on my exams. Could anyone suggest some builds for each matchup?
I did these builds last time I played in like April, could anyone clarify if they're still good, and perhaps suggest something even better, newer that is in the metagame? The "hottest build" right now?
PvT: I did zealot/stalker/msc opener into like 6 gate blink that made terrans rage. or I would do 4 gate blink off the two bases into like chargelot archon... cant remember the player who did that build all the time. :/
PvZ: I used to do this thing like 1 gate fe into 3 gates + forge + attack upgrade, then i would pressure into fast third base at 7 mins and I would do a quick blink attack off 3 bases with sentries, +2, and lots of blink stalkers, kinda like how Parting does it.
PvP: I used to do 4 gate blink, like 3 stalker rush into twilight, 2 more gates, and would attack.
On June 29 2014 04:11 ill_mind wrote: I haven't played SC2 since early April this year, how long will it take for me to get back to my skill level? (top 16 GM)
I haven't kept up with the scene much focusing on school and trying to do well on my exams. Could anyone suggest some builds for each matchup?
I did these builds last time I played in like April, could anyone clarify if they're still good, and perhaps suggest something even better, newer that is in the metagame? The "hottest build" right now?
PvT: I did zealot/stalker/msc opener into like 6 gate blink that made terrans rage. or I would do 4 gate blink off the two bases into like chargelot archon... cant remember the player who did that build all the time. :/
PvZ: I used to do this thing like 1 gate fe into 3 gates + forge + attack upgrade, then i would pressure into fast third base at 7 mins and I would do a quick blink attack off 3 bases with sentries, +2, and lots of blink stalkers, kinda like how Parting does it.
PvP: I used to do 4 gate blink, like 3 stalker rush into twilight, 2 more gates, and would attack.
You might've stumbled upon the wrong thread. This is the one you're looking for. This sub-forum is dedicated to Super Smash Bros.
On June 29 2014 05:26 Aveng3r wrote: which character does kirby most benefit from sucking in and stealing their b ability? I would imagine either fox or falco
Netplay is good until you actually start learning the "real" game in the same way that in bw you basically havn't actually started playing the game until you are C+ and that's a good 3-6 months at least
How tight is the window to short hop double laser with a shine at the end? I'm able to shdl and I can multi shine pretty well but I really need that extra bit of techskill to show off. I've gotta admit I'm struggling with this one.
It's very tight. Only a few frames, at best. IIRC you need to hit the first laser within 2 frames of jumping, and the second only has a 3 frame window as well. Fox's jump starts at frame 4, so you've got a solid 9 frame window to do it. Then just shine at the end
Makes it harder. You have to be conscious of your attacks and you can't just laser spam (as Falco). On the other hand, it allows teammates to save each other with well placed lasers/needles/whatever
On July 07 2014 14:18 Spazer wrote: Doubling falco lasering the entire stage is one of the examples often used to explain why team attack is on.
Also explains the free cash I got at a random frat house tourney awhile back! If any "casual tourneys" ever pop up with a doubles bracket I highly endorse this method.
Playing without team attack is so fucking awful. All the skill is gone and projectiles are just stupidly imba. Team spacing is actually very gratifying once you are good at it.
Big tournaments run the ntsc version of Mele right? As a european that's playing a decent ammount of mele mostly just with friends should i try get a ntsc system or will i be crippled by practicing on pal?
Depends on what you mean by big tournaments. If it's in NA, they'll be using NTSC for sure. I'm not totally certain about the rest of the world, but I think PAL is common for tournaments in Europe? RoF3 used PAL, for instance.
So I play Captain Falcon and Puff. I practice my falcon from time to time and try to make it faster with as good shuffling and platform wavelanding as I can as well as a few other tricks. I barely practice my puff at all. My roomate uses ice climbers and samus and barely even wavedashes at all and never L cancels anything. Am I allowed to bitch about how hard falcon is when I am going like 50/50 versus him?
Falco's pretty good in teams as is(saving with lasers is great) but without teamattack on double falco would just be ridiculous. It also removes so so much of skill and practically leaves you with 2 players just spamming moves. Every doubles match I've played where teamattack has accidentally been off has been atrocious
On July 08 2014 17:53 puppykiller wrote: So I play Captain Falcon and Puff. I practice my falcon from time to time and try to make it faster with as good shuffling and platform wavelanding as I can as well as a few other tricks. I barely practice my puff at all. My roomate uses ice climbers and samus and barely even wavedashes at all and never L cancels anything. Am I allowed to bitch about how hard falcon is when I am going like 50/50 versus him?
Not really.. just because you practice tech skill doesn't mean you are better than someone. Falcon is considered to have pretty heavy advantages over both those characters anyway. It's more likely that you are just bad, and that even though he might be bad, you aren't at a level where you can take advantage of his sloppiness. Samus and Ice Climbers are basically useless characters without wavedashing -.-
It is, in my opinion, the most underutilized / undiscovered mechanic in the game at this point. It makes your shield bigger so that attacks that would otherwise whiff, hit it. In addition, it makes you slide further back when shielding. This is in my opinion the best way to escape spaced aerials on your shield and other sorts of shield pressure, and for example when Falco does something like SHFFL dair -> shine, light shielding can make Falco be too far for the shine to hit you, most likely allowing for a punish. It can also counter Peach's dsmash because light shield is almost impossible to shieldpoke through, and you slide so far that you're out of range after just 1-2 hits of the dsmash, giving you more than enough time to actually punish Peach's dsmash with a shieldwavedash on some characters.
Light shielding does a couple things: Bigger shield (less chance of shield pokes) More shield damage (see pewpewu's shield breaker kill on hbox) You slide farther (used practically in the marth killer, for example. Also see yoshi) More shieldstun Slower degen over time
The only times I really see light shielding is on platforms, because the extra sliding can push you off the edge for an easy escape. And, of course, for marth killers.
On July 10 2014 01:00 Shikyo wrote: It is, in my opinion, the most underutilized / undiscovered mechanic in the game at this point. It makes your shield bigger so that attacks that would otherwise whiff, hit it. In addition, it makes you slide further back when shielding. This is in my opinion the best way to escape spaced aerials on your shield and other sorts of shield pressure, and for example when Falco does something like SHFFL dair -> shine, light shielding can make Falco be too far for the shine to hit you, most likely allowing for a punish. It can also counter Peach's dsmash because light shield is almost impossible to shieldpoke through, and you slide so far that you're out of range after just 1-2 hits of the dsmash, giving you more than enough time to actually punish Peach's dsmash with a shieldwavedash on some characters.
Disagree with the last part, lightshielding will give you more hitstun and will allow you to slide farthur away, which allows you to escape the dsmash. But the way to punish is regular shield and then WDOOS immediately after the dsmash ends. You can see Leffen/Mango do this a lot to punish Dsmashes. Lightshielding away gets you stuck in hitstun for quite a bit longer and pushing yourself to far makes it harder to punish with WDOOS. You want to be close to Peach if you want a guranteed wdoos punish on dmsash.
On July 10 2014 08:14 Shikyo wrote: well for me the problem isn't getting there in time to punish so much as the shield just getting destroyed if I shield normally
If you play as Sheik though you don't need to worry about that because Sheik's shield is too stronk
Well that's the crux of it. It's a risk reward game pretty much. If you are not confident you are gonno get shieldstabbed and eat a crapton of damage, otherwise it's better to just escape it. For high level players they understand the risk-reward that comes with it and their tech is really on point. Otherwise you might be better off, in the short run at least, to just escape with getting dsmashed.
On July 10 2014 08:14 Shikyo wrote: well for me the problem isn't getting there in time to punish so much as the shield just getting destroyed if I shield normally
If you play as Sheik though you don't need to worry about that because Sheik's shield is too stronk
Well that's the crux of it. It's a risk reward game pretty much. If you are not confident you are gonno get shieldstabbed and eat a crapton of damage, otherwise it's better to just escape it. For high level players they understand the risk-reward that comes with it and their tech is really on point. Otherwise you might be better off, in the short run at least, to just escape with getting dsmashed.
Well there's no extra shieldstun if you don't do a full lightshield but do a "half-lightshield" instead so I feel like that's good
anyone have any tips on how to get better at dashing or is it simply a matter of practice? its pretty bad how much I struggle with dashing all the time, and I walk when I don't hit the stick hard enough.
I just found out about holding down left or right trigger until right before it clicks when you plug in your gc controller. I can tell there's a difference when I wavedash and stuff. Are there any drawbacks to doing this? Do all pros generally do this when they plug in their controller?
On July 12 2014 12:19 OnceKing wrote: recently found out that "electric" attacks in smash have extra hitstun, "fire" attacks attach a small dot. do "dark" attacks have any special effect?
Good question, i'd like to know the answer to that one aswell... however, since i haven't heard of it before, i'm pretty sure it doesn't do anything significant.
Could you elaborate on what the "small dot" does besides setting you aflame?
On July 17 2014 21:07 tofucake wrote: Nobody does it, afaik.
Except me and a bunch of guys in europe
It's good if you want to remove the analog part of one of your shoulder buttons - especially useful for powersheilding, wavedashing and anything else requiring a hard R press
Use the other button for lightsheilding and l-cancelling that require soft presses
On July 17 2014 15:40 Epishade wrote: I just found out about holding down left or right trigger until right before it clicks when you plug in your gc controller. I can tell there's a difference when I wavedash and stuff. Are there any drawbacks to doing this? Do all pros generally do this when they plug in their controller?
nobody does this
it removes the ability to l cancel without using up your tech window, and also light shielding. which is fine I guess if you use the other trigger for those but it doesn't give you any real advantage in wave dashing (plus wave dashing is already super easy) so there's no point
On July 17 2014 15:40 Epishade wrote: I just found out about holding down left or right trigger until right before it clicks when you plug in your gc controller. I can tell there's a difference when I wavedash and stuff. Are there any drawbacks to doing this? Do all pros generally do this when they plug in their controller?
nobody does this
it removes the ability to l cancel without using up your tech window, and also light shielding. which is fine I guess if you use the other trigger for those but it doesn't give you any real advantage in wave dashing (plus wave dashing is already super easy) so there's no point
Nah, you'd be surprised. A lot of people do it. Power shielding is easier because pwoer shields don't work if you hit light shield on the way down to the full shield.
Well there's no extra shieldstun if you don't do a full lightshield but do a "half-lightshield" instead so I feel like that's good
On July 17 2014 15:40 Epishade wrote: I just found out about holding down left or right trigger until right before it clicks when you plug in your gc controller. I can tell there's a difference when I wavedash and stuff. Are there any drawbacks to doing this? Do all pros generally do this when they plug in their controller?
nobody does this
it removes the ability to l cancel without using up your tech window, and also light shielding. which is fine I guess if you use the other trigger for those but it doesn't give you any real advantage in wave dashing (plus wave dashing is already super easy) so there's no point
I normally use Z for l-canceling anyways, so that's not a problem in that regard. But I find that when I do this and I attempt wave-dashing, I have a lot more room for error in not-shielding after my wave dash. I suppose it wouldn't matter if you've already mastered wave-dashing and never accidentally shield afterwards, but I wouldn't say it doesn't give you any real advantage if you still mess up on it occasionally or are still learning it.
On July 17 2014 15:40 Epishade wrote: I just found out about holding down left or right trigger until right before it clicks when you plug in your gc controller. I can tell there's a difference when I wavedash and stuff. Are there any drawbacks to doing this? Do all pros generally do this when they plug in their controller?
nobody does this
it removes the ability to l cancel without using up your tech window, and also light shielding. which is fine I guess if you use the other trigger for those but it doesn't give you any real advantage in wave dashing (plus wave dashing is already super easy) so there's no point
I normally use Z for l-canceling anyways, so that's not a problem in that regard. But I find that when I do this and I attempt wave-dashing, I have a lot more room for error in not-shielding after my wave dash. I suppose it wouldn't matter if you've already mastered wave-dashing and never accidentally shield afterwards, but I wouldn't say it doesn't give you any real advantage if you still mess up on it occasionally or are still learning it.
Better to just learn to do it well. You'll shield a bunch at the end of wavedashes for a couple weeks and then it won't be an issue anymore. I understand doing it for the powershielding benefits, but don't do it just because you don't want to spend the time to grind out the most basic tech skill.
On June 29 2014 20:56 bo1b wrote: How tight is the window to short hop double laser with a shine at the end? I'm able to shdl and I can multi shine pretty well but I really need that extra bit of techskill to show off. I've gotta admit I'm struggling with this one.
this was PROBABLY already answered, but i've got an answer with framedata analysis
It takes fox 4 frames to take off from a jump (after pressing x or y, and that's the amount of time you have to release to do a shorthop as well) The total frames it takes for fox to do a singular laser is 36 frames The laser comes out on frame 10. Any repeated shots will come out 10 frames after the last. The shorthop airtime is 21 frames Shine has 39 frames Shine hits frame 1 Shine reflects frames 4-21 OR release + 1 You can JC the shine any time it's reflecting
So if you can't do a bit of simple math, or dont understand what any of this means: since you have a total number of 25 frames in the jump animation (including takeoff and airtime), you have 21 frames of airtime to laser. the laser comes out on frame 10, and can be shot 10 frames after that. since it takes 20 frames to shoot two lasers, that leaves 1 frame for you to double tap the b button. because of the 4 seconds for the jump takeoff, you have a total of 5 frames to move your thumb from the jump button (x or y) to the b button to tap it (but pressing it too early wont do anything, pressing it after will only put one laser out).
so in all, there's a 5 frame opening to move your thumb after the SH to the b button 1 frame opening to PRESS the b button (1/60 of a second) and as for the shine in the end, it can come out as early as you can put it out after you land it takes 4 frames before you can JC the shine and from here you can either waveland or do another shorthop out of the JC, whatever the whole thing takes 29 frames if you do it frame perfectly
On August 09 2014 12:06 puppykiller wrote: How do you avoid getting shield grabbed in falcon versus ice climbers? My friend plays IC's and beats me off of shield grabs and wobbling.
Captain Falcon doesn't have a lot of options when he lands after an aerial, especially when it comes to shield grabbing. Your best bet, though, is to do the aerial while using your momentum to go straight through them, and not stop just in front of them/behind/on them. for example, if you're going to short-hop knee/stomp them, and you know they're going to shield and attempt to grab you, make sure you do a dashed-short-hop so that you have the momentum to go past them.
Spacing the aerials works especially well as ICs slide so far back. Shouldn't even need to space the knee if you don't have the forward momentum that puts you right next to them. CF vs ICs shouldn't be a very difficult matchup and you can kill Nana quickly and with relative safety from popo. I'd just mostly spam jumps and camp platforms, manouvering under the ICs when they try to come at you. FD's very tough vs ICs but you can still spam aerials all right. Just avoid getting grabbed and the matchup should be pretty straightforward.
Not so much gameplay question, but I figured this might fit here; are other smash game's (so 64/Brawl/PM) tournaments allowed to be submitted as a sidebar event? Or just Melee?
Can you smash DI command grabs like Falcon/Ganon upB, Bowser sideB etc.? Was thinking about it wrt being able to SDI Puff's fthrow but have no way to test it atm
When playing against better players I often notice I have trouble approaching at low percents. What are some general guidelines? Im playing falco / falcon atm
do things that aren't CCable? Grab. Falco can just approach with dair; do low dairs on shield, and maybe try for shinegrabs. Falcon can do like nair/dair/knee -> grab at various low percents.
On August 13 2014 12:29 ]343[ wrote: do things that aren't CCable? Grab. Falco can just approach with dair; do low dairs on shield, and maybe try for shinegrabs. Falcon can do like nair/dair/knee -> grab at various low percents.
Falcon is pretty susceptible to getting those CC'd though, I think some characters can even CC the knee at super low percents. It also wouldn't work against char that duck Falcon's grab, eg. trying to nair grab a crouching sheik just leads to pain. Most of the time dair/knee should be decent enough though, nair itself would need to be spaced well. Grabs are obviously the best for Falcon though.
On August 13 2014 11:54 Xeofreestyler wrote: When playing against better players I often notice I have trouble approaching at low percents. What are some general guidelines? Im playing falco / falcon atm
I main falco, and i notice that building up percentage is really hard, especially if the opponent ends up crouch-canceling attacks and stuff, and hitting me out of it, or shieldgrabbing me or something. Your best bet, and one of your safest approaches is lasering into an aerial. this will completely stop your opponent's momentum if they're approaching you, or anything else for that matter, and allow you to land a nair or dair or something. then from there, you can chain it into a shine, then combo, etc. (that's pretty much what falco's about. find something to chain into a combo that you can work with).
another option is to laser into a shine. this doesnt build up nearly as much percentage as laser into an aerial, but it'll put your enemy into the air right away, and you can follow up with a dair/nair/bair (whatever you want).
if that doesnt work, there's the option of lasering into a grab. of course, the laser to build a bit of percentage, and to stop your enemy as you approach them with the laser, then you can grab into a downthrow, upthrow, etc. and chain it into another laser into a grab, then combo out of that. if you choose to downthrow, then you can tech chase from here into a dair, and combo them, etc.
then there's dair-shine or nair-shine. pretty self explanatory, it's a move that will either force your opponent into a shield, OR get hit a few times if they're at 0 percent. and there are multiple follow-ups if your enemy gets hit by the shine, the most obvious being to dair them or bair them. otherwise, if they get hit by the intitial dair/nair, then your shine will most likely hit them. if they crouch cancel it, even better, because they'll DEFINITELY get hit by the shine. if they're stuck shielding and you're not consistent with nair/dair-shines for shield pressure, you can just nair/dair-shine into a shinegrab, throw them wherever you want, and start comboing.
now i cant give as much detail about falcon, and im sorry about that. im a falco main and hardly know anything about using falcon, and i dont have a lot of experience playing against falcons.
On August 13 2014 17:41 ]343[ wrote: oh, it seems like knee / dair -> grab work on me (samus) at low %s even when I crouch cancel (?) but maybe I'm doing the wrong move out of CC
Knee can be CCed until a pretty high percent by Samus. Stomp beats CC by every character at 0, afaik.
in the original smash (for the n64) what is the series of button presses to acheive that super fast reflector that fox does?
Im not even sure that this is a human who is doing this or if its a mod or something, but from 28 seconds to 42 seconds youll see what im talking about. How the hell is he getting that reflector to cancel so quickly?
On August 22 2014 05:56 Kyuukyuu wrote: 64's shine cancels when Fox lands, so he's short hopping and shining on the first available frame in the air and immediately landing to cancel it
is that a bot doing that then? Ive tried to do that many times and I can get it once in a blue moon but even then its because im holding the controller all wrong just to do it. Is there a way to do it as quickly as it happens in the video?
On August 30 2014 15:24 n00b1n8R wrote: I'm not sure of the phrase for it, but it's when a player bounces on the ledge. How do you do that quickly as Marth?
Can you provide a video / gif so we know what you're talking about? Sounds like you're talking about teching, or (???) ledgedashing... or maybe grabbing the ledge repeatedly?
On August 30 2014 15:24 n00b1n8R wrote: I'm not sure of the phrase for it, but it's when a player bounces on the ledge. How do you do that quickly as Marth?
Can you provide a video / gif so we know what you're talking about? Sounds like you're talking about teching, or (???) ledgedashing... or maybe grabbing the ledge repeatedly?
To me it sounds like repeatedly grabbing the ledge.
Yeah, control stick or c-stick down or away from ledge, and just jump immediately. You might have to practice timing so that your doublejump sweetspots the ledge (or at least doesn't get hit by horizontally-hitting or slightly down-angled moves.)
is it possible to cc the downward third hit of marth's side b? i hypothesize the answer is no since it's a meteor but i'm not actually sure and i have no way of testing this right now
Recently I have tried using y for most of my wavedashing/landing and any lazer and shine shit. Then using x for any aerial attacks. I probably developed this because I used to only use x ever and flick it down (towards the c-stick) since I originally only played captain falcon. Is this a good way to use the jump buttons for fox or do I really have to learn to just tap x or y really fast rather than flick different ones depending on whether I am gonna be pushing b next or a / c stick. I am having a bit of trouble learning how to do all the fox shit quickly and efficiently.
I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but just do whatever is comfortable. Like for example, I use x for everything except wavedashing which for some reason i use y. Not on purpose, that's just how i learned i guess. I know Ken has stated multiple times that he uses x and L for everything, all characters. I have also heard pros recommend using y if possible because it is technically just a bit closer to the b button and c stick, so there's that as well...
When I'm using Luigi's down-b tornado as a recovery move, does jamming the control stick upward give me more vertical height in recovery? Or is it all on how fast I mash b? Btw I am aware that you need to "charge" the tornado on the stage once.
There isn't a VOD thread for this forum is there? I just want to spend some time checking out recent (a year or two old is fine too) VODs of games, not sure where to find the best library for that.
Wow, yeah VODS.co is really nice. I'm actually kind of amazed on how well it's organized too, and all of the videos (the ones I watched at least) start right as the game is starting, no need to skip 2-3 mins into the video.
On September 15 2014 12:33 2primenumbers wrote: Fox vs Falco?
simplest way i can put it: both characters require very high skill to be good with them, with their own strengths and weaknesses.
***Edit: Since everyone's saying the information i provided is misleading, i'll just spoiler the below so that if you want to hear my input, you can, but expect to be pointed to other people's provided input
Fox is harder to control, but is very scary in the hands of somebody who comes close to mastery (i don't think anybody will ever master Fox/Falco though. except, maybe, in 20XX). He's harder to control than Falco, but much more rewarding once you learn to control him. he's not nearly good at controlling games or establishing dominance in games, but when you can, and you learn how to, Fox becomes a monster. He doesn't have a very strong neutral game if you don't know how to combo with him or follow up certain attacks. Though, if you can get a combo going, (which requires you to be VERY good at reaction because of DI, techchasing, etc.) then you can pretty much dominate. but he's got much better edgeguarding ability due to his ability to shinespike (although it's extremely risky). Falco might have his dair, but he can't catch people off-stage with that, unless he's planning on SDing. His recoveries are significantly better, as well, having a much larger distance, and his up+b has a hitbox on the charge up
Falco is much easier to control, but has his own benefits to mastery (or coming close to mastery) and has his own strengths compared to Fox. He's much scarier when it comes to comboing and punishing, and these things are much easier to accomplish with Falco than Fox, but that doesn't Falco is an easy win character while Fox is just a character with high potential. Falco's much better at controlling the neutral game with lasers and whatnot, but is very easily punished when it comes to situations whereas he doesn't have dominance, and (especially) getting edgeguarded due to his poor recovery and his fallspeed being higher than Fox. In other words, he gets gimped much more easily.
On September 22 2014 09:11 Aveng3r wrote: how are fox and falco in projectm? Ive had a few chances to play as them in it and Im struggling with them a lot more than melee and brawl
On September 22 2014 09:15 Spazer wrote: I was under the impression that fox and falco are direct ports in pm.
as far as i know, they are almost 100% exact copies of their melee forms. of course, with a few changes because of the engine itself, the character design, and PM itself. there are more frames open for certain things, such as, for fox, SHDL is much easier to do because of the larger frame window to do it (i dont know the exact number of frames for PM because i havent looked into it all that much, sorry). PM also has a larger window for l-canceling, making shffling much easier. there's much more, but i can't promise i can give very reliable information.
I'm having a lot of trouble playing peach vs samus (melee). It feels like all of samus's aerials beat mine and missiles make approaching a nightmare. I've watched how armada plays vs samus but playing as aggressive as he does just gets me killed faster. Specifically, missiles / charge shot seem to force me into an aerial game but my fair/nair never connects vs the samus nair/bair. Any advice?
The Samus bair has a great horizontal hitbox but not a very good vertical one. Try paying more attention to your float height to counter that. As for her nair, it doesn't even have a hitbox on the tip of it, so if you are spacing correctly, you should never have your aerials beaten by it.
When you're being grabbed (or turned into an egg by yoshi) are there particular buttons you're supposed to mash to break free quicker? I just realized I just kind of button mash everything when it happens, probably not the most effective.
A question about Dolphin as well: I downloaded Dolphin and SSBM on my PC today for the first time, and while it's mostly fine, occasionally the game kind of stutters and becomes choppy for a few seconds. It's usually in game and is fine most of the time, but it's pretty annoying (just been playing offline for practice). Could it be anything other than my PC specs? My CPU usage doesn't spike above 30% when playing.
Also, if it matters, I've got a 3 monitor setup, playing fullscreen on one of them.
The only configuration changes I made to Dolphin were the ones instructed in the thread Xeo made on how to play melee online. Are there any changes I should try that might enhance the performance and prevent these stutters?
edit: changed some settings and enable display of fps, gonna change a few things around and see if anything changes.
edit2: nope, everything's pretty well the same. fps in the corner don't drop at all when the game stutters, stays at 60fps as well as no weird spikes or anything in CPU usage.
Looking for more tech to practice. I do 20 mins a day. Right now with fox I got wave dashing/landing, wave shining, drill shining wave dash upsmash, shuffling, jc grab/upsmash, shdl, shine00's. and ledge wavedashing into shine into shit. But now I barely struggle with any of those so I need more to work on!
On September 26 2014 03:19 ]343[ wrote: am I just slow, or is there a little bit of lag when you shine turnaround before you can jump out?
there are exactly 4 frames minimum in which you can shine and jump cancel out. the turnaround is instant. if you turn around on frames 2-3, then you can instantly do a shine turnaround. there's no lag on shine turnaround, it might just be that you're not jumping early enough.
Not sure where else I can ask this but on smash 4 for the 3ds is there a way to have multiple profiles? My brother plays with tap jump on and I like to turn it off and switch the default grab/shield buttons around.
yeah, if you know your opponent is going to fall onto a platform--especially if you suspect they'll miss the tech--jump through platform -> shine -> waveland straight down is probably the best way to punish if you want to lead into more stuff (and probably one of the fastest ways as well). Then you can follow their DI with more platform techchasing.
Is it possible to get a GameCube controller and controller adapter for the PC and download the Dolphin client and practice/play Melee without having to buy a GameCube system and the game?
On October 09 2014 07:01 Doneyear wrote: Hey, sorry if this was answered earlier.
Is it possible to get a GameCube controller and controller adapter for the PC and download the Dolphin client and practice/play Melee without having to buy a GameCube system and the game?
On October 09 2014 07:01 Doneyear wrote: Hey, sorry if this was answered earlier.
Is it possible to get a GameCube controller and controller adapter for the PC and download the Dolphin client and practice/play Melee without having to buy a GameCube system and the game?
Does waveshine have viability for Falco? I can waveshine across the map in practice, but I'm not seeing much usage versus my friends. Maybe cause I'm bad. But I dunno...
On October 10 2014 00:23 Fazers wrote: How do I jump cancel grab (mainly with Fox)?
How do I grab out of shine? Shine out of shield?
Does waveshine have viability for Falco? I can waveshine across the map in practice, but I'm not seeing much usage versus my friends. Maybe cause I'm bad. But I dunno...
1. jump then press grab 2. jump then press grab 3. jump then press down B 4. yes it's required for all of his combos because full hopping out of shine won't allow you to follow DI, combo across platforms, etc.
To shine OOS you have to press the down B during your character's jump squat. Falco has 5 frames of this (IIRC) so you have to jump then shine within 1/12th of a second.
I like to do it with c-stick up (makes you jump when shielding), as it's closer to the B button. So shield, c-stick up + control stick down + B.
c-stick while shielding is one of the only things that "buffers" in the game (as soon as you leave shieldstun, you will jump if holding c-stick up, roll if holding c-stick to the side, and spotdodge if holding c-stick down).
it's really good.
On October 11 2014 04:11 Grobyc wrote: Anyone know who the two people playing are in this VOD from VGBC?
Hahah yeah to be fair he was a bit better than me in most matchups, I only started recording at that point though. I would've loved to play vs his fox, but most people don't take ness seriously so they dont wanna play their mains against him. After this match he had to go so I didn't manage to record anything else, but I will soon.
I mostly played falcon against him actually, I'll record some of it because he's the one I really wanna get better with now. Was a lot of fun playing against this guy because we'd just do as much silly shit against eachother as possible (like that up-b by him hahah)
And yeah combo di is one of my glaring weaknesses right now. Any general guidelines for that?
the "general" way to say it is "DI away when you think he's trying to continue the combo, DI to survive if you think he's going for a finisher." tbh it's all very matchup-specific; learn to recognize your opponent's setups and "engagement" moves, and if they hit, know which way to DI.
Ness is a difficult character to start with or critique because he has so few options. It's the same with all low tiers. A few matches in and it's clear that you have to fish hard for your openings or go for gimmicks, leaving you to not consider other aspects of the neutral game, recovery, punish, etc. Now of course a better Ness player than me would tell you what you should have done in X situation, but as a learning process it's pretty detrimental.
For example, that Fox was basically just mindlessly dash dance x 2 -> nairing and drillshining oos when crossed up. With another good character this is an easy thing to punish but with Ness you can't do anything about it, so when I see the video and you don't do anything about it, there's nothing to really critique.
If you want to beat a top tier with a low tier, you need to either win the neutral basically all the time, which is hard because low tiers inherently have fewer options than top tiers, or you need a godlike punish game. Look up what combos Ness has on Fox; learn the %s and how you should react to different DI.
True, I just enjoy playing him even though it's an uphill battle. It's like training with weights on.
That being said I don't main ness, I just play him for fun sometimes. I'm currently maining falcon, since he has enough options to deal with the entire cast (at my level, at least)
I'll have to make a video of it. Somehow I always start recording when I'm playing ness and then my opponents have to go t_t Just went climbing though so my hands aren't listening well right now...
Yo guys how about we do a TL netplay tourney/ladder type of thing? Make a thread, see who wants to join and then just let people play their matches over a period of a few weeks (say, 4-5 days to complete your game w said person or its a dq for the one who doesn't respond)
Could be a nice way of getting some life in here, we could even stream/record top 8 and get some hype going!
This would have to be divided between US & Euro ofc
What determines how many hits you get with peach's d-smash? Is it just the distance from the enemy when used? Or just DI? Or a combination of both? How would you SDI to mitigate the damage done?
Your everything plays a role (weight, knockback, percentage,...) because Peachs Downsmash has many indipendent hitboxes. If you fly into one, you can always fly into the next.
If you crouchcancel, you will get hit by all Hitboxes, for a total of 82% (i think)
If you want to get hit the least, you have to smash DI Up and towards peach to fly out on the other side, or you can try to SmashDI Up and jump out. If you hold up, you will be hit by 1 or 2 hits. You can also try to techroll out of it (good at the edge) (same direction as the knockback, or you will get caught by more downsmash hits)
Also it was in response to the other commentator saying 'Happy feet!', which was the title of Zhu's falco combo video, since zhu would have to pull some sick combos if he wanted to win the 1v2
I didn't realize until recently that any two hit nair (e.g. Falcon's or Marth's) only needed one input to perform both attacks. Because of this, I developed a bad habit of tapping A twice when nairing; does the second input screw up anything regarding timing or (____)? I'm not a very knowledgeable player, so idk if this is a simple question.
Basically, is the second input of A just unnecessary, or actually detrimental?
On November 03 2014 15:40 darthfoley wrote: I didn't realize until recently that any two hit nair (e.g. Falcon's or Marth's) only needed one input to perform both attacks. Because of this, I developed a bad habit of tapping A twice when nairing; does the second input screw up anything regarding timing or (____)? I'm not a very knowledgeable player, so idk if this is a simple question.
Basically, is the second input of A just unnecessary, or actually detrimental?
The second input does nothing, but you should still break the habit of doing it. Also, since you say "I'm not a very knowledgeable player", then you might not know that you can fast fall Marth's nair and still have it auto-cancel. I know someone who mains Marth who didn't know this, so maybe more people don't know about it.
I been playing fox and got decent at Shine OoS by jumping with the c-stick then inputting a shine with the slide upwards. I've switched mains to falco and this method doesn't really work anymore because of their different squat timings. So is there a better method for doing this with falco? or should I just learn to do the timing differently?
when i do a shine underneath the platform and then jump cancel it to a waveland on the platform for when they're in shield or some shit on the platform, if there is no character i can do it perfectly almost ever time. However, when i do hit a character i always get stuck in shine. Is this normal and how can i get around it?
On November 17 2014 16:38 BlackPride wrote: when i do a shine underneath the platform and then jump cancel it to a waveland on the platform for when they're in shield or some shit on the platform, if there is no character i can do it perfectly almost ever time. However, when i do hit a character i always get stuck in shine. Is this normal and how can i get around it?
quite normal. If you hit a character with any attack, you will be in hitlag for a littlebit, meaning you need to delay your actions a little bit longer. Depending on what you hit, you will have different amounts of Hitlag! E.g.: Hitting a crate has different hitlag from hitting a character, which is still different from hitting a character with Star, which is also different from hitting someones shield.
That's also why MultiShines on someones shield are "harder" than doing them without contact, and why practicing L-cancel on a target is more usefull than just practicing it without an opponent! (Best way to practice L-canceling is on different targets, so you get used to L-cancel independently from when you perform your aerial/fastfall! (because you can actually jump to early if you hit on shield)
I've got a question now, partly to mods: I started Streaming last week, I've been streaming several hours daily. (except yesterday) I am practicing Melee and PM, and i'm doing tutorials and analysis for different things. Can I advertise the stream in this subcategory, and may I create a thread for it? I'm really hoping to get this stream going, but I'd love to have intelligent discussions on there, so I'd love to have more TLers around there, but I'm not sure wether i'm allowed to do that on here (I only ask here, because everywhere else I feel "important" enough to actually do what I want, here I don't want to step on peoples toes, because I've always been more of a lurker)
as an example, I've been messing around with charizard stuff this saturday, trying to figure out some frame data and exported some of it to YT. This is not supposed to be promoting my stream yet, this is just me sharing knowledge as I always do, and I'd be creating a thread for these analyses once they're mostly finished anyway!
not a mod, but i don't have a problem with it. maybe not here in this particular thread unless it is pertaining to a certain question, but if you have valuable information to offer the community, why not promote it somewhere it is relevant?
also thanks for the answer, thats what i assumed but i was hoping it was different. really annoying to have to train my hands to do a different timing depending on the character.....
On November 19 2014 06:28 BlackPride wrote: not a mod, but i don't have a problem with it. maybe not here in this particular thread unless it is pertaining to a certain question, but if you have valuable information to offer the community, why not promote it somewhere it is relevant?
also thanks for the answer, thats what i assumed but i was hoping it was different. really annoying to have to train my hands to do a different timing depending on the character.....
It's not different for characters, it's only different for different states/objects
Are you asking to get on the stream list? You can apply for that here.
If you want to create a forum thread about interesting things you're discovering, you can do that; but if it's just to advertise your stream / talk about it, maybe a blog would be better? If you just have some disconnected things you want to discuss, this thread (or the SSBM General Discussion thread; maybe you could start a SSBPM General Discussion thread if you'd like) might be fine.
I am having trouble playing as fox versus my roomates Ice climbers. I am not sure how to deal with him shield grabbing me when I go in for attacks. How am I supposed to approach? All he does is wave dash around and wobble and down smash.
On November 19 2014 15:39 puppykiller wrote: I am having trouble playing as fox versus my roomates Ice climbers. I am not sure how to deal with him shield grabbing me when I go in for attacks. How am I supposed to approach? All he does is wave dash around and wobble and down smash.
I play as fox/falco and for the life of me I can't stop getting sheildgrabbed. I try to come in from the air and land behind the opponent to prevent this but still the sheildgrabbing is just killing me. Is there any simple fix to this problem? I'm doing my best to l cancel all of my attacks but I feel that even when I do they can still get me.
Instead of blindly shieldpressuring them, try spacing with your aerials.
that means either overshooting (or crossing up, as far as I know the official term in smash is overshooting your aerials though) or spacing away from people.
Fox and falco can pressure people without shines by doing spaced backairs. Its how you destroy wierd spacies matchups. M2K used to do only spaced and autocanceled bairs in teams (like spam FJ Bair alls match)
yeah, i'm hungover and can't really explain very well right now, if you need more help on what "spacing" is, tell me, there's guides and stuff out there
last second aerial on shield -> shine is safe. out of the shine then you have mixups like shinegrab if they stay in shield, or you can do another aerial while fading back out of the shine to land outside the range of a grab. if you go ham on their shield and mix up rising/falling aerials then if the opponent either guesses luckily or reacts well to when you've done your aerial he can still grab you but it's difficult (this is basically what westballz pressure is).
depending on the situation it may be better to do the last second nair shine (for fox) into whatever (shine grab, double shine, fade back aerial) or to try and space fade back bairs instead. (for these it helps if you use the c-stick to aerial)
i have a 2.6kW air conditioning unit, will it always consume 2.6kWh of energy regardless of the settings? or will it consume less if e.g. the fan speed is low and/or the temperature variance is minimised
On November 24 2014 09:57 Doraemon wrote: i have a 2.6kW air conditioning unit, will it always consume 2.6kWh of energy regardless of the settings? or will it consume less if e.g. the fan speed is low and/or the temperature variance is minimised
On November 24 2014 09:57 Doraemon wrote: i have a 2.6kW air conditioning unit, will it always consume 2.6kWh of energy regardless of the settings? or will it consume less if e.g. the fan speed is low and/or the temperature variance is minimised
this would be in the right thread if you were in the right forum
Assuming no recovery attempt from the opponent, is it better to up tilt or down tilt as fox or falco after a grab--> downtoss? Both seem to toss the opponent into the air but I can't figure the best one for damage and combo potential
which charachter do you play? Techchasing generaly implies reacting to their tech, and punishing them for it (no tech, neutral tech, and techroll are the options)
My question is how do you react to their tech quickly enough to punish them for it? By the time I see which way my opponent teched I feel it's too late to punish it
if you're dthrowing as fox/falco, most characters can DI away / techroll far enough that you basically have to predict which way they're going (I'm pretty sure?) There are exceptions, of course; falco's dthrow on fox doesn't knock fox down, which can lead to amusing regrabs.
But basically if your opponent knows how to tech, you sorta have to guess to techchase them after dthrow; that's why dthrow is not usually preferred if another throw leads to more guaranteed followup (fox uthrow for many characters) or better positioning (throwing them off stage, for example).
Lol okay I think I'm getting the idea, been watching some YouTube videos
I had been thinking that there was some specific combo that you could pull by wavedashing or something immediatly after the dthrow but it looks like I just need to get quicker anticipating my opponents movements and spacing myself accordingly
fox and falco are going to be the death of me. They seem like they are some of the most difficult characters to get the hang of on account of fox's stupid speed and falco's recovery limitations. That said I just cant get over how fun they are when it works. Their combo potential is awesome, it just frustrates me how I can win convincingly one game and then seemingly get 4 stocked the next.
On November 29 2014 07:53 Aveng3r wrote: fox and falco are going to be the death of me. They seem like they are some of the most difficult characters to get the hang of on account of fox's stupid speed and falco's recovery limitations. That said I just cant get over how fun they are when it works. Their combo potential is awesome, it just frustrates me how I can win convincingly one game and then seemingly get 4 stocked the next.
don't worry
all characters are hard, game is hard in general
Got to play with zoler and cosmo at DH. Was fun! Something tells me that they wern't playing their best lol
Also, hotbid pro dodger, played one game and didn't see him for the rest of DH lel
@Aveng3r: Oh, sorry I didn't see the post before where you were already talking about Fox/Falco
You shouldn't use Downthrow as a standard option with fox very much. You can get Uthrow to something against most characters (all toptiers, it gets difficult against floaties (exceptions were Uthrow->uair/bair won't always work: Puff, Peach, Samus, ICs, other floaties) Downthrow is only reliable against characters with horrible techrolls (e.g. Pichu, Pikachu) and can be used as a miup near the ledge against others (forcing a tech near the ledge takes away one teching option) I recommend using it on Puff once Uthrow uair doesn't work anymore, that way you can do downthrow->usmash as a finisher.
with falco: Falco can do Uthrow->something combos aswell, but you have to react to their DI+Laser SDI. I feel like most Falcos rather use Fthrow or Backthrow, to either get them on the ledge or imediately keep up the pressuregame, as youmight get combos if the opponent DIs wrong or doesn't respect your followup. What "always" works is downthrow on fox with falco, as someone said before (NTSC only). You just have to react wether they end up behind or in front of you, IIRC. Downtilt may always hit, dunno. Falco cannot techchase after fownthrow. You can keep pressuring with lasers, but fthrow/backthrow does the same and keeps the opponent closer or sends them offstage.
general rule of thumb (fox+Falco): downthrow isn't very good, use it as a mixup, not as a techchase tool.
Lately I've been described as the most aggro marths in a long time because in neutral game I sort of just go at people. I do dash dance a lot, but I'm a lot more aggressive with how I approach and go for opportunities. I was also described as M2K-esque because I have a very flow charty punish / edge guard game (esp against spacies) where a single hit or throw off stage -> guaranteed death.
I want to watch videos of super aggro marths so I can work on my neutral game because I don't think my neutral game is as good as my punishes
-edit-
To be clear of my level, I'm a marth player around UltimaScout / WIDL's level. UltimaScout being the infamous trash talking marth from delaware and WIDL being the peach from Norway who is studying in the states at my university
On December 01 2014 22:24 Yomi-no-Kuni wrote: @Aveng3r: Oh, sorry I didn't see the post before where you were already talking about Fox/Falco
You shouldn't use Downthrow as a standard option with fox very much. You can get Uthrow to something against most characters (all toptiers, it gets difficult against floaties (exceptions were Uthrow->uair/bair won't always work: Puff, Peach, Samus, ICs, other floaties) Downthrow is only reliable against characters with horrible techrolls (e.g. Pichu, Pikachu) and can be used as a miup near the ledge against others (forcing a tech near the ledge takes away one teching option) I recommend using it on Puff once Uthrow uair doesn't work anymore, that way you can do downthrow->usmash as a finisher.
with falco: Falco can do Uthrow->something combos aswell, but you have to react to their DI+Laser SDI. I feel like most Falcos rather use Fthrow or Backthrow, to either get them on the ledge or imediately keep up the pressuregame, as youmight get combos if the opponent DIs wrong or doesn't respect your followup. What "always" works is downthrow on fox with falco, as someone said before (NTSC only). You just have to react wether they end up behind or in front of you, IIRC. Downtilt may always hit, dunno. Falco cannot techchase after fownthrow. You can keep pressuring with lasers, but fthrow/backthrow does the same and keeps the opponent closer or sends them offstage.
general rule of thumb (fox+Falco): downthrow isn't very good, use it as a mixup, not as a techchase tool.
Ive been trying the uthrow a lot more recently. It seems to work better with the uair (i still have terrible aim and miss with it more than i hit) but I like the feel of the bair better especially if I have them above 50-60%. Seems like I can get them pretty close to the ledge if not off it completely with it
On December 01 2014 22:31 TyrionSC2 wrote: Are there any popular / good aggro marths?
Lately I've been described as the most aggro marths in a long time because in neutral game I sort of just go at people. I do dash dance a lot, but I'm a lot more aggressive with how I approach and go for opportunities. I was also described as M2K-esque because I have a very flow charty punish / edge guard game (esp against spacies) where a single hit or throw off stage -> guaranteed death.
I want to watch videos of super aggro marths so I can work on my neutral game because I don't think my neutral game is as good as my punishes
-edit-
To be clear of my level, I'm a marth player around UltimaScout / WIDL's level. UltimaScout being the infamous trash talking marth from delaware and WIDL being the peach from Norway who is studying in the states at my university
The Moon. Old school KDJ. LordHDL, when he actually comes to the states.
On December 02 2014 07:46 ]343[ wrote: LordHDL lives in CT now! He did really well at Super Nebulous (beating The Moon and Swift in Marth dittos)!
I think PPU is relatively aggro too, but maybe I know nothing about Marth ^^
Wait, he's in mainland full time now?!?! Omg yes. He's so good. He came to Long Island in October and ran through our weekly with Link. His spacing and combos are so on point.
And yeah, I was at Super Nebulous. You should have seen him and Hax after GF. They kept playing for an hour and a half, and it was only about 60/40 in Hax's favor. If HDL is here to stay, I fully expect him to be ranked in the top 20 by the end of next year. His Marth dittos are incredible and his play against spacies is so crisp.
there's pretty much no character that can outcamp marth, he just has to get to a region where it's unsafe for characters to try to projectile him and then dd around it
of course it's easier said than done but that's the idea in many matchups
how hard and expensive is it to do capture games on a gamecube? do i need a capture card and software for my computer or what? Not that simple of a question but I'm curious if there is a tutorial somewhere.
On December 05 2014 07:56 BlackPride wrote: how hard and expensive is it to do capture games on a gamecube? do i need a capture card and software for my computer or what? Not that simple of a question but I'm curious if there is a tutorial somewhere.
this is what I use for my stream in an amazon list (<20€) http://www.amazon.de/gp/registry/wishlist/3MII430S5KXEY/ref=topnav_lists_2 I use the EasyCap DC60, that's unavailable on german Amazon atm, that's why I added the noname clone (it's actually more expensive), it might not work as well and easycap isn't working as well for everyone as it does for me, but the investment is minimal! I'll delete the link in a few days, don't really want it hanging out on a forum :D (software: OBS... Free and probably best Streaming software atm)
ediT: and disregard the webcams, currently looking for a new one, they have nothing to do with the recording setup edit2: 2 Friends are experiencing some issues with my capture card, seems to be not very reliable
Although, i noticed a lot of my faults, most of which (of course), tend to be nooby mistakes. I have a tendency to shield and roll a lot. I don't know how to react to shield pressure. I'm not the best at edgeguarding, and I'm bad at DI'ing/I hardly DI/I don't mix up techs, or i get read really easily.
And above all, I'm terrible in Fox Vs Falco matchups and Fox Vs CF matchups.
Tips for those matchups? Also, what's the best way to improve if i can't go to tournaments VERY often and don't have a good enough computer for netplay? I'm mostly expecting something along the lines of, "either practice tech or just more experience in general"
Although, i noticed a lot of my faults, most of which (of course), tend to be nooby mistakes. I have a tendency to shield and roll a lot. I don't know how to react to shield pressure. I'm not the best at edgeguarding, and I'm bad at DI'ing/I hardly DI/I don't mix up techs, or i get read really easily.
And above all, I'm terrible in Fox Vs Falco matchups and Fox Vs CF matchups.
Tips for those matchups? Also, what's the best way to improve if i can't go to tournaments VERY often and don't have a good enough computer for netplay? I'm mostly expecting something along the lines of, "either practice tech or just more experience in general"
Got friends who play? Contact them. Play friendlies with everyone at the tournaments, from the very best there to the very worst. Ask them for their contact info and tell them to text you if they're playing smash and text them if you want to play. If your area has a facebook group for smash or a smashboards thread, get on those.
Time in the lab is definitely integral but so is a diverse range of practice partners. Sometimes while you're playing at someone's place, instead of doing friendlies do sets. If you want to win during the pressure of a tournament set it helps to practice in sets. Play a best of 3 with stage striking and banning and all that jazz and take some time between games to think about what you could have done better. Sometimes, instead of doing sets, do friendlies. Remember that in friendlies, winning doesn't matter. Take the time while playing friendlies to experiment and see what happens if you choose followup y instead of followup x, or try to play a game where you force yourself not to roll at all for example.
Watch videos! Videos are like guidebooks in themselves. When you watch a video for matchup advice don't be afraid to pause, rewatch, watch in slow motion to catch these things. I wouldn't really advise watching for fancy combos and stuff; those tend to be in the moment and so they're difficult to replicate. Especially with Fox there are a lot of typical two or three hit combos but there's no way an extended combo comes out of a can. Watch for spacing and decisions in neutral, watch for move selection, watch for general game plans. When you're watching a vod and someone does something that you didn't anticipate or think he was going to do, pause and ask yourself why. Why did they choose that move? Why did you think of whichever move you thought of? What would have been the best?
Lots of people think netplay sucks; I don't have it so I dunno. But it lags and stuff so if you wanna play netplay you have to play and practice differently. Since it lags you can't really practice the timing-precise things too well (or so I hear) so you have to focus on different aspects. I would say that if you can go to other people's places to play smash or have people come over to your place to play on an actual setup then you should basically always do that instead.
When you ask for matchup advice you should also try to ask more specifically. Unfortunately I doubt I can help you out so much since I don't play fox/cf/falco but it helps a lot if you try to think about specifically what happens to you that makes you lose so people can help you out more.
When do you grab as marth against fox? I try to do it when he whiffs an aerial or hits my shield, but I always end up either whiffing the grab, getting shined, getting upsmashed, or getting grabbed myself. When is safe to grab?
He's probably l-cancelling his aerial and placing it low on your shield. If you really want to shieldgrab him, only try to do it if his aerial starts hitting your shield near the top of the shield.
Against most characters, Marth actually wants to dashdance grab a lot in neutral. It's probably not as good vs Fox because he's fast / in the air / often throwing out aerials. Instead, pressure him so that he shields and try to grab that, or try to combo into grab (fair, utilt, uair all combo into grab at certain DI's / %s.)
On January 14 2015 04:20 ]343[ wrote: He's probably l-cancelling his aerial and placing it low on your shield. If you really want to shieldgrab him, only try to do it if his aerial starts hitting your shield near the top of the shield.
Against most characters, Marth actually wants to dashdance grab a lot in neutral. It's probably not as good vs Fox because he's fast / in the air / often throwing out aerials. Instead, pressure him so that he shields and try to grab that, or try to combo into grab (fair, utilt, uair all combo into grab at certain DI's / %s.)
on a similar note... How do I play against a fox who is much much better than me? He went last hit last stock with mango, beat KDJ and Wobbles, etc...
I just don't feel like I can get in on him at all.
well, obviously you won't be able to beat him now, but your goal is to be able to beat him!
On your own, you can practice tech skill; with other people, practice punish game (how to punish certain options, and guaranteed followups off of those punishes), edgeguards, etc. When you play with him / other better players, every time you get hit, think about what decisions you made led up to that, what the spacing was before you tried what you did, and how he covered that option by you. That'll help you with neutral.
Also, ask him questions. At the beginning, he can't give you that many good answers because it'll all be general advice, but you can still use that general advice. Later on, having a top player to practice with + a good work ethic probably results in you being very good at the game
edit: "I can't get in on him at all." I think Marth fundamentally has to be more defensive in the matchup; your goal is to zone Fox out until either (a) he messes up, or (b) you push him to the ledge.
This includes: after l-cancelling an aerial on his shield, as an oos option (shine oos or wavedash -> shine oos for laggier moves), to continue combos where they're right on top of you, or maybe even as an approach (running shine with fox is pretty good lolz). Also, Fox's shine is a good edgeguarding tool.
Does anyone know if there is an archive online somewhere with videos of matches, preferably, M2K's Marth? And hopefully, in chronological order? PPMD, PPU, and The Moon also, if at all possible?
Will be going to my first tournament, NCR, in April and would like to study M2K's videos. I know YouTube has a lot of videos, but it very difficult to narrow down the search to the right match up and the right chronological timing.
On March 23 2015 13:40 tRuE008 wrote: Does anyone know if there is an archive online somewhere with videos of matches, preferably, M2K's Marth? And hopefully, in chronological order? PPMD, PPU, and The Moon also, if at all possible?
Will be going to my first tournament, NCR, in April and would like to study M2K's videos. I know YouTube has a lot of videos, but it very difficult to narrow down the search to the right match up and the right chronological timing.
On March 23 2015 13:40 tRuE008 wrote: Does anyone know if there is an archive online somewhere with videos of matches, preferably, M2K's Marth? And hopefully, in chronological order? PPMD, PPU, and The Moon also, if at all possible?
Will be going to my first tournament, NCR, in April and would like to study M2K's videos. I know YouTube has a lot of videos, but it very difficult to narrow down the search to the right match up and the right chronological timing.
Watch this if you haven't yet to learn how to edge guard:+ Show Spoiler +