|
On May 23 2014 18:33 Hot_Bid wrote: is there any trick to wavelanding on platforms and general platform movement other than simply just grinding it over and over? You can always doublejump the same distance below the platform so that you can press L/R with the normal wavedash timing and waveland on the platform. This works for almost every situation. Sometimes you need to just be as fast as possible, for example with Fox in some situations in stages like battlefield, you might need to up tilt -> double jump on the topmost platform -> waveland -> instantly doublejump as soon as you fall off the platform in order to catch the opponent in time uair. In that case you just need to doublejump so that you maintain the highest vertical speed. Another is if you as Falco for example need to first move a relatively large distance forward before for example wavelanding backwards into bair(Say you're in the very middle of battlefield, dash short hop left and then after a while doublejump and then waveland backwards for a bair.).
Grinding is necessary but doublejump timing is the easiest trick I can think of for most scenarios.
|
On May 23 2014 00:05 ]343[ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope. Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player. Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed. yeah I understand this. but honestly, I'm not really enjoying playing samus much more at this point anyways. I mostly picked her up just to beat my friend who thinks he's good in the ditto. I've been wanting a change for a while. So I play falcon a lot (who doesn't?) and im also enjoying puff and falco. Puff for floaties, and falco for fastfallers. so I guess my question is just who's better against sheik? And is this puff/falco dual main a good idea?
|
On May 23 2014 18:33 Hot_Bid wrote: is there any trick to wavelanding on platforms and general platform movement other than simply just grinding it over and over? who do you main hotbid?
|
if you have a falco there's not really a point to also having puff since falco has no bad matchups pretty much
i wouldn't "dual main" at a low-mid level, it just makes you bad
|
On May 24 2014 04:24 BlackPride wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 00:05 ]343[ wrote:On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope. Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player. Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed. yeah I understand this. but honestly, I'm not really enjoying playing samus much more at this point anyways. I mostly picked her up just to beat my friend who thinks he's good in the ditto. I've been wanting a change for a while. So I play falcon a lot (who doesn't?) and im also enjoying puff and falco. Puff for floaties, and falco for fastfallers. so I guess my question is just who's better against sheik? And is this puff/falco dual main a good idea?
I play a lot vs Puff and a bit vs Falco. I'd say, play to your strengths. If you read really well, go with Puff and rest the shit out of them. You'll lose a bunch of games while trying to figure out how to rest right, but nothing is more satisfying than resting through half of Sheik's moves. Plus Puff's edge game really negates a lot of Sheik's edge game. If you play more technically, go with Falco. Falco is so hard to approach as Sheik. You basically pray to get close enough for a grab or get them off stage and needle/edge guard. But playing vs Falco on Final D is the stuff of nightmares.
|
On May 24 2014 04:51 FezTheCaliph wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2014 04:24 BlackPride wrote:On May 23 2014 00:05 ]343[ wrote:On May 22 2014 22:43 BlackPride wrote: Hmmmm....so yeah I'm losing to sheiks distinctly below my skill level (maining samus rn) and I already play a lot of falco/puff anyways so I think I'll try that. Watching hungrybox just REK sheiks gives me hope. Eh, even though Samus vs Sheik is ~really hard~, I'd recommend sticking with Samus and figuring out what you're doing wrong vs Sheik. At a low/intermediate level I think picking up a secondary to play bad matchups won't help you improve as a player. Basically, work on spacing and not getting grabbed. yeah I understand this. but honestly, I'm not really enjoying playing samus much more at this point anyways. I mostly picked her up just to beat my friend who thinks he's good in the ditto. I've been wanting a change for a while. So I play falcon a lot (who doesn't?) and im also enjoying puff and falco. Puff for floaties, and falco for fastfallers. so I guess my question is just who's better against sheik? And is this puff/falco dual main a good idea? I play a lot vs Puff and a bit vs Falco. I'd say, play to your strengths. If you read really well, go with Puff and rest the shit out of them. You'll lose a bunch of games while trying to figure out how to rest right, but nothing is more satisfying than resting through half of Sheik's moves. Plus Puff's edge game really negates a lot of Sheik's edge game. If you play more technically, go with Falco. Falco is so hard to approach as Sheik. You basically pray to get close enough for a grab or get them off stage and needle/edge guard. But playing vs Falco on Final D is the stuff of nightmares. ok yeah that makes sense. good advice, I think i'll go with puff. Thanks for the help everybody.
|
Falco and Jigglypuff are very different characters. Personally I feel like your playstyle can really work with only one of them. I guess Mango's kind of an exception but still, you shouldn't need the help of anyone else to choose between those 2, it should come naturally.
I think that Jigglypuff is very easy to "noobstomp" with but the border from low level to medium level is enormous whereas with Falco you can get far with just mechanics. Reading people also is far more difficult than you'd think because in SSBM you can be so safe even if you're read perfectly(Depending on character).
Against Sheik in specific, I'd go with Falco but that's probably just me and I've never been that great at Jigglypuff(Although I can play every character at a decent level). You can do very well just with good laser usage and playing safely, with an emphasis of staying near the middle of the stage. Really, if you remove gimp backthrow kills, in my opinion Falco-Sheik is like 65-35 for Falco or more. It's incredibly difficult for Sheik to get anything done if Falco is able to consistently laser so low that Sheik cannot dash under them and time lasers to catch Sheik while landing from jump. Every single hit also can lead into 50%+.
Sheik vs Jigglypuff in my opinion is one of the more underrated matchups in the game. In PAL Sheik can chainthrow Jigglypuff decently with dash attack boost grab for a while and her aerials are comparable with Jigglypuff's. While in PAL I feel like Jigglypuff still has a minor advantage, I would say that it's much more difficult to play at that level as Jigglypuff than it is as Falco.
About Samus, though, I think that she's very underrated. Please learn SHFF missiles. It's perhaps the most difficult tech in the game but it's absolutely amazingly powerful. Basically, short hop and at the peak, smash down and immediately to the side + B. You will fastfall and immediately after fire a smash missile immediately before hitting ground. I believe you have 1-2 frames to do it but I've been able to get it down pretty consistently without even maining Samus. There's just a simple trick movement that you do and after you master it you get it down every single time. In my opinion, Samus is currently perhaps the most undiscovered character in the game and as said, I believe that she's extremely underrated(This is perhaps her strongest trick that's perfectly doable in fight yet I've NEVER seen ANYONE do it, tournament or casuals).
Behind the SHFF missile you can wavedash ftilt, grab, continue spamming the missiles by hopping back and forth and pretending you're Falco, or perhaps dash in, wavedash back and see how the opponent reacts. Samus's playstyle in general is based around crouch canceling and other defensive manouvers, spacing with her wonderful ftilt and punishing with fsmash. Down smash and downtilt are combo starters and CCC tools. Most of her best stuff comes from her missiles.
Keep in mind that you can experiment a little, for example at high-ish %s dtilt -> jump -> bomb -> nair is a true combo vs fastfallers.
|
On May 23 2014 18:33 Hot_Bid wrote: is there any trick to wavelanding on platforms and general platform movement other than simply just grinding it over and over? I don't know how much you know about the game, but you should watch this quick 40 second video: + Show Spoiler + It has the best song you've ever heard too.
And the 10 second sequel: + Show Spoiler +
And a video that discusses these techniques in more detail: + Show Spoiler +
Besides knowing this stuff, all you can do is grind out movement.
|
that song was amazing lol
|
just do the waveland when you're halfway through the platform. if you're waiting to be above the platform it's usually too slow to be useful
|
Does anything need to be added to the OP? I havent been in here a whole lot recently so I havent really been checking to see if any new FAQs are popping up
|
On May 25 2014 00:33 Count9 wrote: just do the waveland when you're halfway through the platform. if you're waiting to be above the platform it's usually too slow to be useful You really cannot do it visually or it's not going to work, assuming you're wavelanding while going upwards on a lower platform.. Before you even jump, you need to know when you're going to press what.
By the way, I think that the biggest problem with newer players is that they wait around too much, for example after a wavedash or SHFFL. It's far more effective to be on the move right away. This is perhaps the biggest thing mechanically that seperates mediocre players from decent players.
|
So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
Thanks.
|
On May 28 2014 10:08 Epishade wrote: So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
Thanks.
1. most people Z grab. light shielding comes up if you try to press Z too soon during another animation (ie. landing lag, attack animation, whatever). Z is basically just a macro for (light) R/L + A at the same time, so the A won't register during lag animation and the light press remains afterward
2. there's a "trick" if you use your thumb nail and slide it off the edge of the button but i wouldn't recommend using it because it's slow and bad. just practice and you'll get it it becomes intuitive for sure
3. you can use whatever. i use L because that's where the Z button was in '64
4. A button is faster for when you want fastest possible aerial (ie. instant uair oos), since it's way closer to the jump buttons. most of the time though you don't need it. c-stick is good because it allows you full control over your aerial momentum and your fastfall timing. you can do a dair then delay the fastfall (controlstick + A will autofastfall you), you can run at someone with a bair or retreat with a fair (great for marth), you can do instant-fastfall uair (also great for marth). i'm pretty sure most people do a hybrid style because of being used to control sticking certain aerials but definitely be able to recognize situations where you want to do either one and adapt to it
|
On May 26 2014 06:42 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2014 00:33 Count9 wrote: just do the waveland when you're halfway through the platform. if you're waiting to be above the platform it's usually too slow to be useful You really cannot do it visually or it's not going to work, assuming you're wavelanding while going upwards on a lower platform.. Before you even jump, you need to know when you're going to press what. By the way, I think that the biggest problem with newer players is that they wait around too much, for example after a wavedash or SHFFL. It's far more effective to be on the move right away. This is perhaps the biggest thing mechanically that seperates mediocre players from decent players. Sure, eventually it's muscle memory but at the beginning it's useful to see where your character is to know how soon you need to start the waveland.
And yeah, l-cancel into nothing or missed aerial into instant shield slow new players soooooo much it's ridiculous. The exercise I do with ppl who want to learn to get into tourney scene is I sit in shield and they do frame advantage aerials on my shield and have to immediately do a dashdance grab while I sit there spamming shield grab. Gets rid of the aerial into nothing or aerial into instant shield problem pretty fast. (also teaches delayed aerials, which is another thing newbies get wrong. Every aerial at the exact same time cause that's what they practiced against CPUs) Actually, the whole concept of dash dancing is pretty foreign to a lot of people I've found, especially starcraft friends who think it's the same as box spam (i.e. useless apm spam to warm hands).
Ofc, new players also don't know when to just do nothing. The most heinous is fox/marth players that get a uair at mid %s and for some reason they just have to waste double jump to try to reach the guy instead of letting gravity do the work while cutting off options. I dunno, there's just a million things new players do wrong that it's really hard to be general, gotta have tapes.
|
On May 28 2014 12:43 Count9 wrote: Ofc, new players also don't know when to just do nothing. The most heinous is fox/marth players that get a uair at mid %s and for some reason they just have to waste double jump to try to reach the guy instead of letting gravity do the work while cutting off options. I dunno, there's just a million things new players do wrong that it's really hard to be general, gotta have tapes.
And then slightly-better players who punish those bad habits with bad habits of their own (like always double jump dairing after getting juggled) and so on
|
On May 28 2014 10:08 Epishade wrote: So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
Thanks. You might want to use the Y button instead of the X button. It's just preference, but I find the X button much more inconvenient; it's not as close to the other buttons as the Y button. Anyways, short hopping comes with practice. Try practicing short hopping with fox and you will probably be able to short hop as Marth a lot more easily.
Most people use L or R to l-cancel. I use the L button, but a few use the Z button. I believe Hungrybox does.
Marth's neutral air auto-cancels, so you don't l-cancel that move. You do fast-fall it so that you land right after the nair's second slash.
I use c-stick for most of my aerials. When I do short-hop double fairs as Marth I use the A button. C-stick won't work for that except if done using a claw-grip.
SHFFLing becomes second nature after long enough.
|
51146 Posts
Picked up Zelda for PM and I'm having trouble playing against spacies like Fox and Falco. Any idea how to approach the match-up or should I just go back to Sheik for those two specifically?
|
United States10328 Posts
|
On May 28 2014 10:08 Epishade wrote: So I just got Melee a week or so ago and I've been trying to get better at it so when I go back to school I can kick some ass.
Few questions. I main Marth btw.
Sometimes when I attempt to grab someone using Z, I light shield instead. Do people normally attempt to Z-grab, or do people normally shield-grab instead?
I've learned wavedashing (for the most part anyways), and am now trying to learn SHFFLing, but I have a problem short hopping. This may sound stupid, but I have a hard time pressing down on the x button just short enough that I don't end up regularly jumping. Is there any trick to doing that or just something I'll have to get better at? Once you learn to SHFFL, does it kind of become intuitive to do it for those that can?
Some more questions about SHFFLing as well.
For L-canceling, what button do people use to do that with? Z, L, or R?
And then, do you use the c-stick to attack when SHFFling, or the A-button?
Thanks. For short hopping, you just press the button and then let go of the button. Some people like to "flick" it or whatever but that just hurts my thumb and is completely unnecessary. Some people just have problems with 4 frame jumpers but as Marth is a 5-frame jumper you should have no issues.
I have always used X and find Y completely unberably awkward to use. It's just preference. When I can do JC shines going from X to B with Fox I doubt you need to get there any faster than that anyway and it gives automatic perfect timing for both that and SHDL.
I use C-stick left for practically all aerials. It's easy to even do backwards short hopping double fairs with Marth with that. Doing backwards jumping double fairs with C-stick right is also possible but significantly more difficult. Which option you use for which aerial when depends on what you need to do. As a general rule of thumb, if you need full movement forward when doing a backward aerial or visa versa, you should use C-stick. Personally, I use C-stick whenever possible because it gives you more control. This practically means that the only time I use A-button for aerials is for nair and for something like SHFFL Bair when I'm moving to the left and need the aerial out asap(right direction C-stick is too slow for me to move to from X to use for that). You can also short hop with control stick diagonally to the left and C-stick to the right for this but I'm not comfortable doing that even though it's technically better.
My current main character is Fox, and usually when I double jump bair, I jump with the control stick. I also jump with control stick when it's a precise uair timing where I need to double jump immediately after leaving the ground, faster than I can double tap X. I also jump with control stick when doing shine -> dj aerial with Falco. With Marth, I jump with the control stick when I for example want to double jump up-left while doing bair(tipper) to the right. I believe that it's important to use control stick properly because using solely the button to jump has its limitations.
Light shielding instead of grabbing happens when you're in whatever type of lag at the moment you press Z. I usually use Z to grab and very rarely get the light shield issue. Still, there's not really that many situations where you want to stand-grab that's not a shield grab. For run-grabbing you shouldn't have the issue of being in lag.
Yeah, SHFFL is completely natural and effortless when you get it down. Less so that wavedashing, though. Especially with Marth SHFFLing is very easy.
By the way, I would concentrate on learning to dash dance properly instead of wavedashing as a beginning Marth player. Being able to move your body such an enormous amount in 1 frame to dodge attacks and counterattack is incredibly powerful. I believe dashdancing in general to be a stronger technique for characters like this as well.
I use R for everything, shield, wavedash, l-cancel. Some people like to use 2 different buttons for shielding/l-canceling and for wavedashing. This is in theory better because it allows you to, for example, go into a precisely-sized light shield out of a shieldwavedash. It's not important enough to me, however, and I'm comfortable with doing it how I do.
|
|
|
|