This has always been something I have wondered about, sometimes rather vocally. However the past week or so I have been really looking into the history of religion, specifically Christianity, simply trying to understand how it came off to be such a worldwide phenomenon.
This is mainly a question to anyone religious. I am going to try and keep from turning this into another argument over religious views, because I strongly want to understand and be educated.
I am going to do a small rant simply to attempt and get my ideas out there and hope that people will respond accordingly.
I am stumped at how religion has such a strong hold on people. I can understand people looking to bring reason to the unknown and to answer questions like “why are we here” and the general unanswerable questions about life. However I know that there are intelligent, logical people who are also strong believers in religion. Albert Einstein for one.
One of the things I have seen religious supporters say repeatedly during the time I have spent looking into the history of religion, is that god can't be proven or disproved; he can only be understood through faith. However where is that faith coming from. It just seems completely random in my mind. That to me gives a reason against rather than for.
To give you some example of this, if tomorrow god appears before us, and claims that Christianity is the 'true' religion and that they got it completely right, I would still consider it absurd that people believed it (up until the point that god himself spoke of course). Why? Because they still had absolutely nothing to base it on.
Perhaps god exists, perhaps he doesn’t. Chances are we will never know. People have worshiped thousands of gods over the course of human recorded history and thousands more before that. The point is, nothing puts any one god or religion in front of another in terms of possibility (believability is a different story, but given human history it seems it’s all too easy to believe something without good reason).
I suppose my view is somewhat depressing, kind of a "don’t try because you will never know" idea(although shouldnt say never know really, don't know would be more acurate). To be honest I wish I could believe in god, because I think it would make life a whole lot easier. I think that is one of the main reasons I am asking this question, even if I doubt it will change my mind.
edit - One last thing, I don't need to hear about how religion is worse than science because science is lookiing for answers while religion is claiming truth, looking for answers to fit it's truth, all that I can come up with just fine on my own, and im sure we have all heard it plenty. What I haven't heard is a good reason behind religion, wich is what im lookiing for.
Not to mention the fact that when you look at the origin of most religions it almost always brings up multiple factors that would play as being beneficial to the creator. For example in the case of Christianity, Asimov writes -
"It was going to be the writer's purpose to denounce the Seleucid Empire, which in the second century B.C was persecuting Judaism ferociously. To avoid charges of rebellion and treason, the writer had to refrain from attacking the Seleucids directly. By putting the book into a period of past disaster, he could attack them indirectly. He could make Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar surrogate villains for Syria and the Seleucids and his readers would know what he meant while the overlords might have trouble proving it."
religion is just a form of morality and outlook on the world premade for you so you dont have to think for yourself (and probably develop a worse morality). the metaphysical stuff is just in for the kicks and to make it unquestionable for those who believe in it. the belief doesnt come random, its just the basic need for some morals and values to orientate and some people just find religion to provide that in the most convenient manner for them. All the believes and morals you take from religion are backed up by millions of other people (talking major religions), are somewhat glorified and made accesible by nice storys (bible,koran), epic buildings (churches) and traditioned ceremonies who sometimes even mean benefit for you (holidays). Also you can hardly be argued against as a religious person cus of the reasons above.
On October 23 2007 22:16 dream-_- wrote: However I know that there are intelligent, logical people who are also strong believers in religion. Albert Einstein for one.
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature. (Albert Einstein, The World as I See It)
You have to look back years ago and think from that perspective. Science was shit back then... the world was flat, earth was the center of the universe, etc etc etc. Diehilde got a lot of this down...religion is ment to be an answer to the unknown. It answers the unknown by saying there's life after death, but to get in, you must adhear to the morals set forth by whatever God. It keeps the people in line and gives them answers to things that wouldnt otherwise have one.
ANd the reason i thnk religion has carried on for so long is just the fact that so many people have repeated the same thing over and over, it's just hammered into people's heads. Honestly, think about it. If you came from an even remotely religious family, you learned about God at a young age.
What kind of question is this? People who believe in a religion also believes in the text(s) for that religion and the events that are described to have happened. It's like believing in history. So OBVIOUSLY they have something to "base it on".
The reason the religions we see today look and work the way they do is because that was the best way for them to survive. Religions just like the species have evolved through the ages. The religious ideas that were best at keeping the religious obediant and spreading the religion to more people survived. The religions of today are designed to be effective at what they do.
Here is a talk by Dan Dennett for TED that talks about the same topic. Although he talks about ideas/memes in general and not just religion. The same memetic evolutionary thinking is used though =p
On October 23 2007 22:16 dream-_- wrote: I am stumped at how religion has such a strong hold on people. I can understand people looking to bring reason to the unknown and to answer questions like “why are we here” and the general unanswerable questions about life. However I know that there are intelligent, logical people who are also strong believers in religion. Albert Einstein for one.
Religion precedes the age of any kind of logic or reason and has become such a large, ingrained part of our customs and culture that it requires neither. Religion came into play for one major reason - power. Early rulers derived their power from their perceived 'direct link to the divine'. And instilling the belief of a greater life beyond our own helped these rulers convince their people to die for them in battle. How many people would willingly die for a cause they don't understand if they believed this life was our only shot? Personally I believe the world would be a better place if people didn't take life for granted based on the imagined idea of an afterlife - but now I'm just digressing into personal beliefs.
One of the things I have seen religious supporters say repeatedly during the time I have spent looking into the history of religion, is that god can't be proven or disproved; he can only be understood through faith. However where is that faith coming from. It just seems completely random in my mind. That to me gives a reason against rather than for.
Again, it all depends on what you've been taught. Some hardcore fundamentalist Christians believe the world is something like 10,000 years old - or less. They basically looked at the stories in the bible, calculated the length of life for the direct descendants of Adam and Eve, and came to this conclusion. Someone can ask "hey, why wasn't Jesus chilling with any dinosaurs in the bible if the world is so young?" and they reply "God put fossils here to test our faith" - as if God is running around messing with our heads. If someone is taught to be religious or grows up surrounded by religion they often have a hard time approaching the question objectively. In these cases faith trumps logic and logic is seen as a negative factor used in testing one's faith.
I suppose my view is somewhat depressing, kind of a "don’t try because you will never know" idea(although shouldnt say never know really, don't know would be more acurate). To be honest I wish I could believe in god, because I think it would make life a whole lot easier. I think that is one of the main reasons I am asking this question, even if I doubt it will change my mind.
I am of a similar mindset. Life would be simpler if I could just believe in a given set of religious ideas. But as it stands I am an athiest and I do not believe in any god or any life beyond this one. I don't find this depressing as I have absolutely accepted my own mortality and am completely fine with that. As I said earlier, I believe the world would be a better place if people looked at this life as their one shot. There is such a disregard for the value of human life in the world and people really tend to take their lives for granted. It's sad to think people can waste their life sitting on the couch eating chips and pushing around their 400 lb frames through the isles of Walmart. I wonder if people would still let their lives slip into worthlessness without the crutch of the afterlife. GG suicide bombers, anyways.
On October 23 2007 22:32 diehilde wrote: religion is just a form of morality and outlook on the world premade for you so you dont have to think for yourself (and probably develop a worse morality)..
No, read bible, who want today to stone people that work in 7th day of the weak? Or stone women for having sex before marriage, we have develop much better standards of morality then you will find in bible. We also don't punish kids for what they parents did, and do other nonsense that "God" saw at right thing to do.
For OP: - just stream over the women she say nothing important.
Dan Dennett is great so is Richard Dawkins you should read God Delusion.
http://richarddawkins.net/ has lots of materials, you should also see Dawkins lectures on evolution they are on youtube.
Oh and also. Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal god. When he said god he meant the mysteries in science.
"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." — Albert Einstein
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious, then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” — Albert Einstein
Most scientists since Darwin have been atheists/agnostics.
On October 23 2007 22:16 dream-_- wrote: I suppose my view is somewhat depressing, kind of a "don’t try because you will never know" idea(although shouldnt say never know really, don't know would be more acurate). To be honest I wish I could believe in god, because I think it would make life a whole lot easier. I think that is one of the main reasons I am asking this question, even if I doubt it will change my mind.
u think religion would make our life alot easier, and thats the reason why people believe in it and why religion has so many followers
u cant expect a majority of the people to think for themselfs (some philosophers even argue only a small minority is really able to 'think on their own'-what ever this means...) and religion tells you how the whole universe works... ...religion has an answer to every single question you could possible have, because the answer is: god is allmighty, believe in god, he will save us in the end... and so on (wether this answers are good answers or not is another question...a question most people can not answer because they dont have...um how can i call it 'brain capacity' for it
basically most people have two possiblities: 1. believe in god he answers all questions for u 2. believe in science, believe in it because u'll never know what science is all about
some people(like albert einstein) can also 3. start working scientifical and try to get 'intelligent'(not as in IQ) enough to form an own view on thing which will then result in all sciencebelievers to change their view to new standards
and yes this is no scientific work, it is very debatable and wont stand the ground in a serious scientific discussion, but i hope u can understand the broad message i try to express
please dont flame me to hard, i am aware of my weak position, because english is only my third language and it is really hard for me to speak in a scientific way in english
Most of the people I know who are "Christians", including family, basically have the idea that "It gives me hope and is easy enough to do." I don't "believe" in got, but whenever something bad is happening I will "pray", possibly to no particular god but to just get myself talking and hoping that what I'm muttering might help.
We can agree that there are two possibilities, as far as our imagination/language allows us to think: either a creating God or a self-creating Nature. Both are more or less equally probable. Given that, either you have Faith, or you don't. I don't think it depends on your education really, it is deeper than that. Anyway it has absolutely nothing to do with "intelligence".
On October 23 2007 22:42 Hawk wrote: You have to look back years ago and think from that perspective. Science was shit back then... the world was flat, earth was the center of the universe, etc etc etc. Diehilde got a lot of this down...religion is ment to be an answer to the unknown. It answers the unknown by saying there's life after death, but to get in, you must adhear to the morals set forth by whatever God. It keeps the people in line and gives them answers to things that wouldnt otherwise have one.
ANd the reason i thnk religion has carried on for so long is just the fact that so many people have repeated the same thing over and over, it's just hammered into people's heads. Honestly, think about it. If you came from an even remotely religious family, you learned about God at a young age.
and still more and more people become religious. maybe u should think before writing
On October 23 2007 22:42 Hawk wrote: You have to look back years ago and think from that perspective. Science was shit back then... the world was flat, earth was the center of the universe, etc etc etc. Diehilde got a lot of this down...religion is ment to be an answer to the unknown. It answers the unknown by saying there's life after death, but to get in, you must adhear to the morals set forth by whatever God. It keeps the people in line and gives them answers to things that wouldnt otherwise have one.
ANd the reason i thnk religion has carried on for so long is just the fact that so many people have repeated the same thing over and over, it's just hammered into people's heads. Honestly, think about it. If you came from an even remotely religious family, you learned about God at a young age.
and still more and more people become religious. maybe u should think before writing
There are actually less people becoming religious. Society is becoming more and more secular. Stockholm Sweden is an example of this (From some articles I have read). The figures are amazing how few people attend church there.
If you read the bible this is predicted there as well.