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On July 05 2014 08:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:35 Saumure wrote:On July 05 2014 07:56 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 05 2014 05:52 oneofthem wrote:On July 05 2014 05:44 hypercube wrote:On July 05 2014 05:41 oneofthem wrote:US and europe share core interests and values.
LOL no uh yes. some of these posts just show a total lack of awareness for how the rest of the world actually is. newsflash, pretty much everywhere else is much worse This thread is not about that. This thread is about the fact that outside of her borders "America" is murderous paranoid maniac who, without exaggeration, has made a habit of murdering people, including Europeans, for political gain. The American people are OK with things like drone bombings and the Iraq war and kidnappings of Afghani shepherds in the name of "greater safety" in a way that Europeans simply are not. In this sense the US IS worse. Russia has committed atrocities in Chechnya arguable worse than what the US has done in Afghanistan or Iraq but Russia does not have the political power to drag us along with it. China might be hard on her own citizens in the northwest but she certainly is not killing Europeans over it. Just FYI, if Russia had killed everyone in Chechnya, there would still be less victims than in Iraq only... Well, that's not something that's going to happen in the foreseeable future. Also, Chechnya has 1.3 million people, so you'd have to talk about the embargo/genocide + Gulf and Iraq Wars for your statement to be true. What Russia did do is turn Grozny into a beautiful city and decent economic place following the Chechen Wars. This is opposed to turning a stable, secular actually developing country into something out of Deus Ex.
Well, honest sources speak of 2 milion dead (embargo included). Only in June, more than 2000 people died in Iraq.
I don't know why you get so mad. You are in no way responsable...
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On July 05 2014 08:43 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:38 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 05 2014 08:35 Saumure wrote:On July 05 2014 07:56 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 05 2014 05:52 oneofthem wrote:On July 05 2014 05:44 hypercube wrote:On July 05 2014 05:41 oneofthem wrote:US and europe share core interests and values.
LOL no uh yes. some of these posts just show a total lack of awareness for how the rest of the world actually is. newsflash, pretty much everywhere else is much worse This thread is not about that. This thread is about the fact that outside of her borders "America" is murderous paranoid maniac who, without exaggeration, has made a habit of murdering people, including Europeans, for political gain. The American people are OK with things like drone bombings and the Iraq war and kidnappings of Afghani shepherds in the name of "greater safety" in a way that Europeans simply are not. In this sense the US IS worse. Russia has committed atrocities in Chechnya arguable worse than what the US has done in Afghanistan or Iraq but Russia does not have the political power to drag us along with it. China might be hard on her own citizens in the northwest but she certainly is not killing Europeans over it. Just FYI, if Russia had killed everyone in Chechnya, there would still be less victims than in Iraq only... Well, that's not something that's going to happen in the foreseeable future. Also, Chechnya has 1.3 million people, so you'd have to talk about the embargo/genocide + Gulf and Iraq Wars for your statement to be true. What Russia did do is turn Grozny into a beautiful city and decent economic place following the Chechen Wars. This is opposed to turning a stable, secular actually developing country into something out of Deus Ex. Well, honest sources speak of 2 milion dead (embargo included). Only in June, more than 2000 people died in Iraq. I don't know why you get so mad. You are in no way responsable... See my edit (wrote it in before I saw your post).
What am I mad about? Do you not even read my posts? I condemn US imperialism and warmongering like crazy. I was once a part of it for fuck's sake. Read my 3 posts just on the last page.
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On July 05 2014 08:35 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:31 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 05 2014 08:19 Drake wrote:On July 05 2014 08:17 Zooper31 wrote:On July 05 2014 08:16 Drake wrote: U.S. doesn’t have ‘no-spy agreement’ with foreign countries, Obama says “There’s no country where we have a no-spy agreement,” Obama said. “We have an intelligence capability and then we have a range of partnerships with all kinds of countries"
what more to say to this ...
but wait there is:
Obama also said isn’t choosing favorites in hosting a state visit for France and not for another close ally, the U.K. “I have two daughters and they are both gorgeous and wonderful, and I would never choose between them. And that’s how I feel about my outstanding European partners,”
ok now i get it, we are daughters of america in europe and all america does is making spyware on our mobiles to track our movement so we are save ... oh now i get it ...
this words makes me wanna punch him right in his st**id face (sry for the harsh language but i am so pissed reading this ignorance) So you're mad Obama doesn't have a favorite European ally? I don't get what you're so pissed at. Everyone spies, get over it. This particular one just sucked and got caught. no i am mad cause he act like we children and he is the father with the knowledge who can protect all ... and ofc children 2nd class cause well were not american so who gave a shit rly about us ... Obama is more akin to a Roman consul, keeping the socii Latini in line for the common good. Ahh, yes, a striking parallel between Roman and American imperialism. Though to be quite honest, we're most like the Assyrians. The US is a hegemonic empire, not a territorial one.
The Roman Republic was a hegemonic empire in Italy as well, prior to the enfranchisement of the Latins in the first century. The socii Latini were nominally independent allies of Rome operating under de facto Roman military hegemony. They enjoyed a kind of semi-sovereign status within the Roman Empire: internal autonomy, but subordinated their foreign and military affairs to the lead of the hegemon. They also defected from their Roman allegiance from time to time, such as during the 2nd Punic War.
Hence we can't let the Russians or the Chinese peel off any of our socii, else Hannibal will destroy civilisation, or so they say.
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On July 05 2014 07:11 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 05:52 oneofthem wrote:On July 05 2014 05:44 hypercube wrote:On July 05 2014 05:41 oneofthem wrote:US and europe share core interests and values.
LOL no uh yes. some of these posts just show a total lack of awareness for how the rest of the world actually is. newsflash, pretty much everywhere else is much worse Prosperity has fuck all to do with common values. The 'values' that are shared between the US and the EU are quite common around the world. Actually they aren't really values, they are institutions. In terms of actual values like solidarity or human rights there are significant differences both between and within the US and the EU. And there are many similarities too, like there are similarities between EU countries and Latin American ones or even India. So yeah, we aren't islands of stability in a world of lawlessness. how delirious do you have to be to think i was referring to prosperity? for all the flaws of the u.s. it is still a place where human rights and basic democratic ideals are respected, at least on a broad level.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
and wtf is this sweeping generalization?
The American people are OK with things like drone bombings and the Iraq war and kidnappings of Afghani shepherds in the name of "greater safety" in a way that Europeans simply are not.
really now, maybe you guys are getting sensationalized info about america? plenty of protesting voices against these decisions.
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On July 05 2014 08:44 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:35 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On July 05 2014 08:31 MoltkeWarding wrote:On July 05 2014 08:19 Drake wrote:On July 05 2014 08:17 Zooper31 wrote:On July 05 2014 08:16 Drake wrote: U.S. doesn’t have ‘no-spy agreement’ with foreign countries, Obama says “There’s no country where we have a no-spy agreement,” Obama said. “We have an intelligence capability and then we have a range of partnerships with all kinds of countries"
what more to say to this ...
but wait there is:
Obama also said isn’t choosing favorites in hosting a state visit for France and not for another close ally, the U.K. “I have two daughters and they are both gorgeous and wonderful, and I would never choose between them. And that’s how I feel about my outstanding European partners,”
ok now i get it, we are daughters of america in europe and all america does is making spyware on our mobiles to track our movement so we are save ... oh now i get it ...
this words makes me wanna punch him right in his st**id face (sry for the harsh language but i am so pissed reading this ignorance) So you're mad Obama doesn't have a favorite European ally? I don't get what you're so pissed at. Everyone spies, get over it. This particular one just sucked and got caught. no i am mad cause he act like we children and he is the father with the knowledge who can protect all ... and ofc children 2nd class cause well were not american so who gave a shit rly about us ... Obama is more akin to a Roman consul, keeping the socii Latini in line for the common good. Ahh, yes, a striking parallel between Roman and American imperialism. Though to be quite honest, we're most like the Assyrians. The US is a hegemonic empire, not a territorial one. The Roman Republic was a hegemonic empire in Italy as well, prior to the enfranchisement of the Latins in the first century. The socii Latini were nominally independent allies of Rome operating under de facto Roman military hegemony. They enjoyed a kind of semi-sovereign status within the Roman Empire: internal autonomy, but subordinated their foreign and military affairs to the lead of the hegemon. Thanks for the clarification. This is pretty much how the US is in relation to US "allies" in North America, Europe, and East Asia. It's almost funny to see the parallels.
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On July 05 2014 08:41 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:31 Caihead wrote:On July 05 2014 08:12 FiWiFaKi wrote:On July 05 2014 08:10 Drake wrote:On July 05 2014 07:16 T.O.P. wrote:On July 05 2014 04:43 Skilledblob wrote: it's not about the fact that spying takes place. It's about who spies on whom and why. Germany and many other EU nations are supposed to be allies of the US government and this is not how you treat your friends. If Germany is America's friend, then they have nothing to hide. It shouldn't matter whether USA is checking up on Germany or not. Just like how I don't mind NSA spying on me because I'm not a terrorist. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.#Benjamin_Franklin Says who? Benjamin Franklin? Most people think that quote is absolute bullshit, as well as Benjamin Franklin being full of shit. Taking it as a fact is silly, it's nothing more than an opinion from not some guy that I'd argue isn't very educated from hundreds of years ago. What, the idea that individuals who willingly trade away their freedoms for the illusion of safety deserve neither? That's been echoed in philosophical literature all over the world for thousands of years. in the liberal tradition but never elsewhere. existence of most regimes including those of modern china and russia is direct proof of the opposite.
Considering most societies have had "liberal traditions", there isn't a "never elsewhere". Unless you are referring to areas that have never had access to the luxuries of education and philosophical pursuits...
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even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime.
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On July 05 2014 08:46 oneofthem wrote:and wtf is this sweeping generalization? Show nested quote +The American people are OK with things like drone bombings and the Iraq war and kidnappings of Afghani shepherds in the name of "greater safety" in a way that Europeans simply are not. really now, maybe you guys are getting sensationalized info about america? plenty of protesting voices against these decisions. You're right, but the sad part is these protesting voices really don't achieve much do they? hehe. Fantasies aside, government (and big business or financial institutions) hold the power. We the people sure as hell don't, besides putting birds of the same feather in that power since they're all in the same league (in before Ron Paul fans or whoever correct me). So do these protesting voices even matter? Not really, I'm afraid.
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On July 05 2014 08:50 oneofthem wrote: even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime. The US has a prison population as large as Russia's and Chin'as combined, and a higher un-sentenced prisoner rate than Russia. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm)
Sure, you don't oppress freedom of speech as much, but given the numbers above 'leader of the free world' has a ironic ring to it.
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On July 05 2014 08:50 oneofthem wrote: even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime.
China and Russia have "strong and sophisticated" regimes? Talk about denial of reality. These regimes are exceptionally weak and impotent (in comparison to efficient Western bureaucracies), hence the arrogation of draconian powers.
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On July 05 2014 08:44 oneofthem wrote: how delirious do you have to be to think i was referring to prosperity? for all the flaws of the u.s. it is still a place where human rights and basic democratic ideals are respected, at least on a broad level.
If we are talking 'on a broad level' about 2/3 of the world respects democratic ideals and human rights. On specifics most have problems. In this respect the US is quite a bit worse than most EU countries though probably better than most of the former communist EU members.
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On July 05 2014 08:50 oneofthem wrote: even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime.
To realize democratic practices and to ensure civil liberties takes substantial social resources and a very well educated, informed, fed, sheltered, employed, and driven society. You can't reasonably expect regions that were going through political and social turmoil where the average man can not even secure the bare necessities to live to put all his energies into ensuring his liberties. Freedom is always relative to a system of social restriction imposed on individuals, people in the 21st century reasonably assume freedom to international travel, freedom to disseminating information from half way across the globe, etc, all of which were logistically impossible back in the day of John Locke.
The liberal tradition has always existed in the form of ideas of liberty and equality, since Aristotle (natural individual rights, state obligation to protect those rights, etc), Confuscius ("Freedom is intrinsic to a good life"), etc. To suggest that a liberal tradition never existed until Enlightenment era Europe is ridiculous, many of the ideas of Locke or Mill were taken directly from Aristotelian ethics and other sources.
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On July 05 2014 08:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:50 oneofthem wrote: even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime. The US has a prison population as large as Russia's and Chin'as combined, and a higher un-sentenced prisoner rate than Russia. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm) Sure, you don't oppress freedom of speech as much, but the result doesn't look all too great.
The result isn't because we're a crazy police state. It's because we have a shitton of criminals who are like that because they're linked to gangs or Mexican cartels. It's also a cultural thing, because rap culture and other cultures here are pretty shitty influences. Russia is more of a police state but even there, the chaos of the 90s spawned lots of unrest and crime that would exist with or without heavy policing. The general Chinese culture isn't about FTP with violent gangs and shit. Most of the population are poor family people who just mind their own business like most folks in the world tend to do. It's just places like US and Russia have too many thugs.
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2/3rd is absurd. try something approaching 1/5th. where are you getting this from
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On July 05 2014 05:50 mahnini wrote: dun h8 da playa h8 da gaem
User was warned for this post The thing is only America is playing it. The whole supposedly common spying is actual a very onesided affair when it comes to USA and Germany. Most German politicians (especially in CDU) still see USA as a good ally and well-meaning patron. But for whatever reason US is working hard on changing that perception.
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On July 05 2014 08:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:50 oneofthem wrote: even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime. The US has a prison population as large as Russia's and Chin'as combined, and a higher un-sentenced prisoner rate than Russia. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm) Sure, you don't oppress freedom of speech as much, but given the numbers above 'leader of the free world' has a ironic ring to it. What does the fact that American criminal laws are poorly designed have to do with degrees of freedom? America's prison population is mostly so large because of America's history with its black minority. But more broadly, if you people havent kept trying to take over the world there wouldnt have been any American bases in Europe. In 1919 there were virtually no US soldiers left on your blood soaked continent of hate.
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On July 05 2014 09:00 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:50 oneofthem wrote: even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime. To realize democratic practices and to ensure civil liberties takes substantial social resources and a very well educated, informed, fed, sheltered, employed, and driven society. You can't reasonably expect regions that were going through political and social turmoil where the average man can not even secure the bare necessities to live to put all his energies into ensuring his liberties. Freedom is always relative to a system of social restriction imposed on individuals, people in the 21st century reasonably assume freedom to international travel, freedom to disseminating information from half way across the globe, etc, all of which were logistically impossible back in the day of John Locke. The liberal tradition has always existed in the form of ideas of liberty and equality, since Aristotle (natural individual rights, state obligation to protect those rights, etc), Confuscius ("Freedom is intrinsic to a good life"), etc. To suggest that a liberal tradition never existed until Enlightenment era Europe is ridiculous, many of the ideas of Locke or Mill were taken directly from Aristotelian ethics and other sources. aristotle is a western source, from an illberal society for the majority. as for confuscius he was obviously captured and co-opted by the rulers of china and rendered into a nice tool of obedience and harmony. the dominant statescraft philosophy in the more liberal periods of china was Legalism, which is basically fascism on steroids. let's not forget the great brainwashing with every single chinese dynastic line. liberalism is yet again co opted in the official language of this current regime if you care to look at the official output.
liberal politics does take resources, but it is also very much a historical coincidence. what i am trying to get at is this coincidence and hwo it is more precious than people seem to think and value. the position of the liberal state is in fact very precarious historically and requires protection, and moral equivalency of the sort being peddled here is not recognizing meaningful kinship between the liberal democracies.
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On July 05 2014 08:46 oneofthem wrote:and wtf is this sweeping generalization? Show nested quote +The American people are OK with things like drone bombings and the Iraq war and kidnappings of Afghani shepherds in the name of "greater safety" in a way that Europeans simply are not. really now, maybe you guys are getting sensationalized info about america? plenty of protesting voices against these decisions. Yes people protest. But not enough to substantially change policy. So either a majority of people are more or less fine with it, or the US is not a democracy. You guys re-elected Bush. More than 50% of the (voting) American people were OK with what he did in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo. You re-elected Obama. More than 50% of the (voting) people were OK with covert assassinations, drones... I agree that it's not black and white, after all the Brits kept re-electing Blair and that I ought to have said "to a greater extent than" in my post. Beyond that I stand by the generalisation.
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On July 05 2014 08:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 08:50 oneofthem wrote: even better, teh existence of a peace loving, pro democracy and rights and justice etc majority in places like china and russia still will not make those places have political structures resembling those values because the people is pretty weak against a strong and sophisticated regime. China and Russia have "strong and sophisticated" regimes? Talk about denial of reality. These regimes are exceptionally weak and impotent (in comparison to efficient Western bureaucracies), hence the arrogation of draconian powers. they are very sophisticated at keeping control and keeping dissent from mattering at all. it's really very sophisticated form of control compared to authoritarianism from back when. it's more of a science than anything the emperors and tsars have come up with.
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