On July 14 2014 03:46 Alchemik wrote:
I don't have good enough control to play that kind of late-game.
I don't have good enough control to play that kind of late-game.
Roach hydra viper timings are very hard to hold aswell.
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Karpfen
Italy959 Posts
July 14 2014 00:48 GMT
#3681
On July 14 2014 03:46 Alchemik wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2014 09:55 Karpfen wrote: On July 13 2014 04:03 Alchemik wrote: Merry Go Round. Even tho it's bad imo, Catallena is even worse. ZvP is impossible for me there. Go swarmhost on that. It's the best option. I don't have good enough control to play that kind of late-game. Roach hydra viper timings are very hard to hold aswell. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
July 14 2014 01:59 GMT
#3682
On July 14 2014 02:50 Jowj wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2014 09:55 Karpfen wrote: On July 13 2014 04:03 Alchemik wrote: Merry Go Round. Even tho it's bad imo, Catallena is even worse. ZvP is impossible for me there. Go swarmhost on that. It's the best option. I'm curious what makes you say that Swarmhost ZvP is best on that map. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, as I think SH lategame is the safest most low variance way of playing, but I don't know that I agree that that is any more true on Catallena than on other maps. Ling Hydra timings still do work, Roach drop play is definitely still viable due to main size and the distance from 3rd to main ramp. Of course there's always mutalisks as well :3. So what makes you say SH exactly? I don't know about Catallena. But I think SH is really really powerful on Nimbus. If you can make it to 4 bases and secure the center of the map, it's soooooooooo hard for Protoss to break that. You can just spore up your backdoor and spine up the extremities of your bases (by the fourth) and just control everything in the center with SH/corruptor. From there you can also constantly threaten the 4th/5th bases of the Protoss. The only difficulty is stopping the Protoss from taking "island" expansions in some of the other backdoor expansions. | ||
HURM
Canada20 Posts
July 14 2014 02:11 GMT
#3683
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6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
July 14 2014 02:37 GMT
#3684
On July 12 2014 07:55 HURM wrote: Hey, I always have strugged with Roach vs Muta games. http://drop.sc/384323 My plan was to push out with the roaches, make sure he didn't have a 3rd, deny it if he did. Pull back and get some hydras and secure my own third. I just get picked apart though. Spore positioning, queen targeting/transfuse micro, general harass management are all things I could work on. Any suggestions would be much appreciated and do I need infestors in this position? I'm not the best ZvZ guy but no one else is chiming in, so here goes. You have a major supply block at 28, and end up down 27 drones to 33 (also 35 to 44 after the next round of drones). You also scout the spire only once the mutas are done. In combination, this gives him the economic room to super-spine his front, since he saw your double-evo roach warren, so what would normally be a serious 1-1 roach counter can't do anything. And you have no preparation for the mutas, so you end up behind in drones and you lose a lot of queens. Really need to spot his tech. You're pretty good about the early scout with slow lings, why no follow up? Your third needs to be faster (you're floating minerals anyway) so that you can get spores there on time, too. Wasn't a problem in this game, but if you scouted his buid you need that third so that he doesn't outmacro you behind the muta harass. Your build is a little weird (late double gas? and i guess two spines to survive an all-in, but i don't think that works...; and you lose drones to slow lings because you're not paying attention and your spines aren't done), but I think you have room to get a few roaches to defend a third, or just drop a bane nest and defend with a few banes. You also need to add more spores as he adds mutas. I don't really have a rule of thumb on this, but if I had to name a number I'd say probably one spore per 8 mutas, at least at your main and natural (so that you can sit at your third). Otherwise your bases get overwhelmed before your hydras can make it back. Oh and don't a-move your roaches with your hydras, the nail in the coffin is the muta attack on natural plus ling attack on third. If you manage to defend those three bases, you can add 4-6 infestors as you approach max supply and 2-2 ups, to counter the inevitable huge baneling flood he'll use to try to wipe your roach-hydra. Blanket him in fungals, expand again while you wipe a base of his, and keep pushing to force inefficient trades (reinforce roaches, protect hydras). Be ready for another bane flood if he's smart. That covers most of it, let me know if you have other qusetions. | ||
HURM
Canada20 Posts
July 14 2014 03:53 GMT
#3685
On July 14 2014 11:37 6xFPCs wrote: Show nested quote + On July 12 2014 07:55 HURM wrote: Hey, I always have strugged with Roach vs Muta games. http://drop.sc/384323 My plan was to push out with the roaches, make sure he didn't have a 3rd, deny it if he did. Pull back and get some hydras and secure my own third. I just get picked apart though. Spore positioning, queen targeting/transfuse micro, general harass management are all things I could work on. Any suggestions would be much appreciated and do I need infestors in this position? I'm not the best ZvZ guy but no one else is chiming in, so here goes. You have a major supply block at 28, and end up down 27 drones to 33 (also 35 to 44 after the next round of drones). You also scout the spire only once the mutas are done. In combination, this gives him the economic room to super-spine his front, since he saw your double-evo roach warren, so what would normally be a serious 1-1 roach counter can't do anything. And you have no preparation for the mutas, so you end up behind in drones and you lose a lot of queens. Really need to spot his tech. You're pretty good about the early scout with slow lings, why no follow up? Your third needs to be faster (you're floating minerals anyway) so that you can get spores there on time, too. Wasn't a problem in this game, but if you scouted his buid you need that third so that he doesn't outmacro you behind the muta harass. Your build is a little weird (late double gas? and i guess two spines to survive an all-in, but i don't think that works...; and you lose drones to slow lings because you're not paying attention and your spines aren't done), but I think you have room to get a few roaches to defend a third, or just drop a bane nest and defend with a few banes. You also need to add more spores as he adds mutas. I don't really have a rule of thumb on this, but if I had to name a number I'd say probably one spore per 8 mutas, at least at your main and natural (so that you can sit at your third). Otherwise your bases get overwhelmed before your hydras can make it back. Oh and don't a-move your roaches with your hydras, the nail in the coffin is the muta attack on natural plus ling attack on third. If you manage to defend those three bases, you can add 4-6 infestors as you approach max supply and 2-2 ups, to counter the inevitable huge baneling flood he'll use to try to wipe your roach-hydra. Blanket him in fungals, expand again while you wipe a base of his, and keep pushing to force inefficient trades (reinforce roaches, protect hydras). Be ready for another bane flood if he's smart. That covers most of it, let me know if you have other qusetions. Thanks for the response! Is his 7:45ish Spire normal? If I don't mess up and get double gas on 34 supply my lair should be done around then to send in an overseer to give me an idea I'm up against that. I guess I should also just be poking at the front with a couple lings t/o the game. I'm basically just looking for no obvious area where he's spending his gas right? If I do get that quick 3rd up, I guess around 8 mins? I basically defend on that until 2/2 and a couple infestors? | ||
6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
July 14 2014 05:24 GMT
#3686
On July 14 2014 12:53 HURM wrote: Show nested quote + On July 14 2014 11:37 6xFPCs wrote: On July 12 2014 07:55 HURM wrote: Hey, I always have strugged with Roach vs Muta games. http://drop.sc/384323 My plan was to push out with the roaches, make sure he didn't have a 3rd, deny it if he did. Pull back and get some hydras and secure my own third. I just get picked apart though. Spore positioning, queen targeting/transfuse micro, general harass management are all things I could work on. Any suggestions would be much appreciated and do I need infestors in this position? I'm not the best ZvZ guy but no one else is chiming in, so here goes. You have a major supply block at 28, and end up down 27 drones to 33 (also 35 to 44 after the next round of drones). You also scout the spire only once the mutas are done. In combination, this gives him the economic room to super-spine his front, since he saw your double-evo roach warren, so what would normally be a serious 1-1 roach counter can't do anything. And you have no preparation for the mutas, so you end up behind in drones and you lose a lot of queens. Really need to spot his tech. You're pretty good about the early scout with slow lings, why no follow up? Your third needs to be faster (you're floating minerals anyway) so that you can get spores there on time, too. Wasn't a problem in this game, but if you scouted his buid you need that third so that he doesn't outmacro you behind the muta harass. Your build is a little weird (late double gas? and i guess two spines to survive an all-in, but i don't think that works...; and you lose drones to slow lings because you're not paying attention and your spines aren't done), but I think you have room to get a few roaches to defend a third, or just drop a bane nest and defend with a few banes. You also need to add more spores as he adds mutas. I don't really have a rule of thumb on this, but if I had to name a number I'd say probably one spore per 8 mutas, at least at your main and natural (so that you can sit at your third). Otherwise your bases get overwhelmed before your hydras can make it back. Oh and don't a-move your roaches with your hydras, the nail in the coffin is the muta attack on natural plus ling attack on third. If you manage to defend those three bases, you can add 4-6 infestors as you approach max supply and 2-2 ups, to counter the inevitable huge baneling flood he'll use to try to wipe your roach-hydra. Blanket him in fungals, expand again while you wipe a base of his, and keep pushing to force inefficient trades (reinforce roaches, protect hydras). Be ready for another bane flood if he's smart. That covers most of it, let me know if you have other qusetions. Thanks for the response! Is his 7:45ish Spire normal? If I don't mess up and get double gas on 34 supply my lair should be done around then to send in an overseer to give me an idea I'm up against that. I guess I should also just be poking at the front with a couple lings t/o the game. I'm basically just looking for no obvious area where he's spending his gas right? If I do get that quick 3rd up, I guess around 8 mins? I basically defend on that until 2/2 and a couple infestors? His spire timing seemed normal for a 2base muta build, but I can't say for sure because I never play 2base muta myself. His econ looked healthy though, so I don't think it will ever be much later than that. Likewise, I can't say for sure on your build what the optimal timing is for scouting, but double gas on 34 seems early; remember than a slow overlord can work, too. But definitely yes to the gas spending, I think you can poke his front and try to spot the double geysers on the natural, plus the lack of roaches. Anything that makes you suspect muta play. Even just trusting a hunch and putting down a spore in the natural and main mineral lines can save you a lot of headache. For the third, yeah you should get a feel for where you start to bank minerals that you can't spend even with perfect injects, and that's roughly where you can put down a third. I think for your build it might be after you start double ups? ZvZ is rather fluid, though, so this will vary based on what he's doing. Don't be afraid to build a third just to have to cancel it against a ling-based all-in, though. Yes, you want the 2-2 and infestors for the deathpush against overspending on muta. You defend your three bases with spores plus hydras, the spores make it so he has to trade mutas to get damage done, and the hydras ensure that even if he makes a hole in your defenses by trading mutas for spores, he'll still have to fight hydras afterward, instead of freely eating up drones. Keep some roaches at your third (hug the hatchery to reduce surface area against lings), and be vigilant about potential ling runbys, plop a roach in your wall and reseal after hydras move through. 2/2 infestor is for the deathpush timing if he kept adding mutas. Let me give some context. Your goal is to get your third up and fully mining as fast as is safe, so that he can't ride the potential econ advantage (i.e., he's made you spend a lot on spores and hydras) into a roach advantage and win a straight fight. He will usually either swap to roaches or keep adding mutas, so keep tabs on the muta numbers and try to get some scouting in (ling or changeling into the front will usually spot his roach count, plus you can check his upgrades for melee vs range). If he keeps on making mutas, I'd recommend the 2-2 deathpush with infestors, basically he's got supply tied up in bad fighting units: mutas, and also whatever banes you can fungal. And your 2-2 ensures that he is at best even on upgrades. If he goes roaches, it'll be a econ/production slugfest (read: normal roach fight), but with a twist since he has mutas, and you have hydra and maybe infestors. Your infestors and hydras are better than his mutas, assuming you don't get them killed, but depending on his switch timing and econ, he might have a bigger roach army. This is why establishing the third is so important against mutas, they are a tech advantage that gets leveraged into an econ advantage, which can mean a lot of roaches. You do have the option of taking a fourth behind a safe amount of hydras and spores instead of doing the push, but just remember that the bane countering of hydras works if he goes on offense, too (i.e., get infestors), and that mutas excel at harassing, so they'll be even more of a pain as you add bases, especially before you have spores at the new base. | ||
Karpfen
Italy959 Posts
July 14 2014 10:05 GMT
#3687
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Karpfen
Italy959 Posts
July 14 2014 11:55 GMT
#3688
On July 14 2014 11:11 HURM wrote: Any replays/ players you suggest studying for that swarm host play? It seems to change a lot depending on the map. Hm I despise that style completely but I've seen vibe playing it very well in red bull bg. Not the absolute highest level of play but still very very high. | ||
Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
July 14 2014 21:24 GMT
#3689
But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. | ||
ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
July 14 2014 21:26 GMT
#3690
On July 14 2014 11:11 HURM wrote: Any replays/ players you suggest studying for that swarm host play? It seems to change a lot depending on the map. If you are going to learn swarmhost my suggestion would be to check out Soulkey. He is in my opinion one of the best SH players. He uses them as (in my mind) intended, he constantly moves with them sending waves from different places in different directions. And for the love of everything do not watch stephano or firecake. | ||
ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
July 14 2014 21:30 GMT
#3691
On July 15 2014 06:24 Alchemik wrote: Ok, so I'm struggling vs Protoss lately (vs Terran who goes for a lot of mines as well, but I know what do to here - just have better control). In the current meta, it's mostly stargate openings into a fast 3rd base (at least at my level of play, which is diamond). If they go for a 2-base all-in, I'm quite ok at defending them and the reason of a loss is way simpler - it's normally bad scout. But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. In my eyes (sc2john will correct me if wrong obv lol) you need to consider what your game plan is. Generally people will do a ling/hydra timing in order to slow down the protoss third to either overwhelm or go into a different tech. If your aim is to go for a roach/hydra/viper attack skip the first step and just get to this faster. Check out some vod's of pros and see how their strats go from one attack into something else really smoothly. Consider how they are moving from one set of units to another. | ||
Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
July 14 2014 21:42 GMT
#3692
On July 15 2014 06:30 ThePastor wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 06:24 Alchemik wrote: Ok, so I'm struggling vs Protoss lately (vs Terran who goes for a lot of mines as well, but I know what do to here - just have better control). In the current meta, it's mostly stargate openings into a fast 3rd base (at least at my level of play, which is diamond). If they go for a 2-base all-in, I'm quite ok at defending them and the reason of a loss is way simpler - it's normally bad scout. But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. In my eyes (sc2john will correct me if wrong obv lol) you need to consider what your game plan is. Generally people will do a ling/hydra timing in order to slow down the protoss third to either overwhelm or go into a different tech. If your aim is to go for a roach/hydra/viper attack skip the first step and just get to this faster. Check out some vod's of pros and see how their strats go from one attack into something else really smoothly. Consider how they are moving from one set of units to another. Yeah, I guess not really having a goal is a big thing. I do roach hydra viper just because I feel comfortable with it, as I did it before. I'd love to do ling hydra into something "better" than that. As it is now, my "goal" is to do a ling hydra timing and after that just "do something", but that's not a good thing to do I guess. | ||
Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
July 14 2014 22:08 GMT
#3693
http://drop.sc/384530 me getting owned by drops and tanks http://drop.sc/384531 me winning vs quick MMM, but he had early medivacs and I feel like I was just lucky that he didn't drop me. No idea what I would do if he just kept me at home by dropping everywhere and then not giving me chance to hit timings. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
July 15 2014 00:48 GMT
#3694
On July 15 2014 07:08 Zheryn wrote: So in my quest to try and get over 30% win rate in ZvT I've started playing some roach hydra, but I'm not really sure what to do. I'm trying HyuN 1/1 into 2/2 roach hydra. How do I play vs banshees (can't be out on map with roach only :o)? Outside of hitting 1/1 timing and then 2/2 roach hydra timing, what's the gameplan? I'm very confused about how to continue after that if I haven't killed him. How do I defend drops? Maybe someone has a few VODs or replays of pros playing roach hydra where they don't win with early timing? http://drop.sc/384530 me getting owned by drops and tanks http://drop.sc/384531 me winning vs quick MMM, but he had early medivacs and I feel like I was just lucky that he didn't drop me. No idea what I would do if he just kept me at home by dropping everywhere and then not giving me chance to hit timings. Okay, so first of all: Did you actually watch the video of HyuN's build? Did you watch the games that HyuN played? Or did you just make this build up? HyuN's build goes for a standard 4-queen opening into a 3rd base into roaches, not 2-base tech. This is probably the primary reason why you're having trouble hitting the timing as well as finding yourself **30** supply (15 roaches) behind where HyuN is at 10:30. If you're going to go 2-base roach, the roaches really have to do some early damage via either a timing or some type of clever harassment. If you insist on going 2-base roach, I would suggest incorporating a nydus worm or overlords drops (or both!) into your play in order to get something done with your roaches. You clearly have the money, so it shouldn't be difficult to squeeze that in there. Second, you really ought to scout more. Why do you even send overlords over to your opponent's base if they are literally never touched again the rest of the game? Third, your engagements are really sloppy. As roach/hydra, you literally want as close to a 360 degree surround as possible. If you fight in a straight line, you will lose. Horribly. So get used to have 2-3 groups of units so that you can easily scoop into a sandwich or a surround if you need to. When you do HyuN's build correctly, you hit a ridiculously powerful timing at 10:30 that the Terran WILL have trouble holding, especially if they went triple CC and double ebays before rax. To deal with drops, you just defend with 3-4 queens + reinforcement roaches while hitting your timing; if the Terran commits to something like a double drop, they will actually just lose the game at 10:30 to 70 supply of roaches (barring some kind of disastrous micro error or miraculous hold). If the Terran is well prepared for the push, HyuN just starts +2/+2 and a hydra den while adding on static defense in a few areas to deal with drops. Again, I think your biggest disadvantage is that you're playing this as a 2-base tech and not doing any damage with it. Note: I'm not saying it won't work because HyuN doesn't do it, but you need to get some kind of damage to justify 2-base roach; otherwise, it's better to just take 3 bases and go from there. EDIT: Your creep spread is exquisite though lol. Very beautifully and artfully done. My creep spread usually looks like my queens actually just took a shit all over the minimap. | ||
Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
July 15 2014 01:45 GMT
#3695
On July 15 2014 09:48 SC2John wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 07:08 Zheryn wrote: So in my quest to try and get over 30% win rate in ZvT I've started playing some roach hydra, but I'm not really sure what to do. I'm trying HyuN 1/1 into 2/2 roach hydra. How do I play vs banshees (can't be out on map with roach only :o)? Outside of hitting 1/1 timing and then 2/2 roach hydra timing, what's the gameplan? I'm very confused about how to continue after that if I haven't killed him. How do I defend drops? Maybe someone has a few VODs or replays of pros playing roach hydra where they don't win with early timing? http://drop.sc/384530 me getting owned by drops and tanks http://drop.sc/384531 me winning vs quick MMM, but he had early medivacs and I feel like I was just lucky that he didn't drop me. No idea what I would do if he just kept me at home by dropping everywhere and then not giving me chance to hit timings. Okay, so first of all: Did you actually watch the video of HyuN's build? Did you watch the games that HyuN played? Or did you just make this build up? HyuN's build goes for a standard 4-queen opening into a 3rd base into roaches, not 2-base tech. This is probably the primary reason why you're having trouble hitting the timing as well as finding yourself **30** supply (15 roaches) behind where HyuN is at 10:30. If you're going to go 2-base roach, the roaches really have to do some early damage via either a timing or some type of clever harassment. If you insist on going 2-base roach, I would suggest incorporating a nydus worm or overlords drops (or both!) into your play in order to get something done with your roaches. You clearly have the money, so it shouldn't be difficult to squeeze that in there. Second, you really ought to scout more. Why do you even send overlords over to your opponent's base if they are literally never touched again the rest of the game? Third, your engagements are really sloppy. As roach/hydra, you literally want as close to a 360 degree surround as possible. If you fight in a straight line, you will lose. Horribly. So get used to have 2-3 groups of units so that you can easily scoop into a sandwich or a surround if you need to. When you do HyuN's build correctly, you hit a ridiculously powerful timing at 10:30 that the Terran WILL have trouble holding, especially if they went triple CC and double ebays before rax. To deal with drops, you just defend with 3-4 queens + reinforcement roaches while hitting your timing; if the Terran commits to something like a double drop, they will actually just lose the game at 10:30 to 70 supply of roaches (barring some kind of disastrous micro error or miraculous hold). If the Terran is well prepared for the push, HyuN just starts +2/+2 and a hydra den while adding on static defense in a few areas to deal with drops. Again, I think your biggest disadvantage is that you're playing this as a 2-base tech and not doing any damage with it. Note: I'm not saying it won't work because HyuN doesn't do it, but you need to get some kind of damage to justify 2-base roach; otherwise, it's better to just take 3 bases and go from there. EDIT: Your creep spread is exquisite though lol. Very beautifully and artfully done. My creep spread usually looks like my queens actually just took a shit all over the minimap. Thanks a lot for your lenghty answer! I watched the video and fenner mentioned "trying to sneak up a third base" at around 6:30, so I thought it was standard to get it a bit later, fail by me. I've actually spent the last few hours before I read your response looking through a bunch of VODs to find games where HyuN does the roach timing and I think I have a much better understanding now how the build works. I'm so unused to do someone else's build as I don't do a lot of builds and the ones I do are builds I've worked out on my own. So basically I need to try and take a third before 6:30 with my queens only and then get a couple of roaches out to hold off once he has 6 hellions and 2 reapers and then just drone up third and mass roach. Yeah my scouting is really bad across all MUs :/ I also don't really know what to change depending on what I scout since I've never played a style like this. Do you play this style anything and have any tips on what you need to change vs different things terran does? I will have to work on my engagements as well. Thanks for pointing that out. The part of the game I enjoy the most is macro/hitting timings, so I've always focused on that and am basically a big a-mover ^^ Thanks for the compliment! As I said, I've always focused more on stuff that is not units lol. I only started playing again last week after not playing for quite a few months, so it's nice that some things are still working for me. MMR decay got me to diamond and it took really long time to get to master again, only got it 2 days ago. Was hovering around top 10 diamond EU for ages. I guess it might be tougher to get master early in the season when all GM players also are in master, covering some of the 2%? Damn I have to get up in like 6 hours but it's just too damn fun to think about the game and plan stuff Glad to be back for a while atleast! Edit: I've been watching quite a few VODs now, and when done properly it seems really strong. How come we don't see roach hydra more often compared to muta ling bane? What are the big weaknesses that makes it not being standard play? | ||
6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
July 15 2014 02:12 GMT
#3696
On July 15 2014 06:30 ThePastor wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 06:24 Alchemik wrote: Ok, so I'm struggling vs Protoss lately (vs Terran who goes for a lot of mines as well, but I know what do to here - just have better control). In the current meta, it's mostly stargate openings into a fast 3rd base (at least at my level of play, which is diamond). If they go for a 2-base all-in, I'm quite ok at defending them and the reason of a loss is way simpler - it's normally bad scout. But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. In my eyes (sc2john will correct me if wrong obv lol) you need to consider what your game plan is. Generally people will do a ling/hydra timing in order to slow down the protoss third to either overwhelm or go into a different tech. If your aim is to go for a roach/hydra/viper attack skip the first step and just get to this faster. Check out some vod's of pros and see how their strats go from one attack into something else really smoothly. Consider how they are moving from one set of units to another. In my opinion, if protoss takes an early third behind stargate play, you need to choose between committing to enough ling-hydra to take down the third, or macroing up to match his three-base econ and watching where he spends his huge gas income so that you can counter it, e.g., vipers. If you fail in taking out the third, you are behind (obviously.) and need to be very aware that he can leverage his three-base econ into a powerful attack before your fourth is up. So you will want to be ready for this, e.g., if he is going blink stalker and colossi, get a spire for corruptors to kill colossi and don't drone your fourth until you hold his attack. Or if he is going to max on VR colossi on three bases, get a fifth base and go to 10 gas muta-corruptor with double spire for upgrades. Basically what I'm saying is that in ZvP you always need to plan on how you will handle his upcoming tech choice. He is going to do something big and dangerous due to his tech advantage, so you have to counter it. Without a plan, you don't have a counter. So you'll trade badly, then his army efficiency will be able to snowball, until your better econ can't make up the difference and you lose. This is an oversimplification, but I think it's an effective way to think about ZvP. Regarding swarm host, I almost never play swarm host because I don't think it's fun for anyone involved. So I go from a roach-hydra midgame to hydra-viper, or a muta switch if I can establish enough bases (i.e., enough gas income). Vipers are troublesome for protoss (they need templar to cope), as are large numbers of mutas (need phoenix to cope), so it puts the ball back in their court to handle your tech--a nice change from the midgame. Roaches are not good lategame, however. At most you want a small handful to either stop zealot warp-ins (I strongly prefer spines because you need all the army supply you can get) or tank a few shots for the hydras, if you're going hydra-viper. Ideally, you will pull units to your hydras and never take any damage. Also, most Korean players seem to feel corruptor-viper is better than hydra-viper. I mostly agree, but if you have the gas to transition straight into corruptor-viper, then I think a muta switch should come first unless phoenix are already out. Note that the big advantage of swarm hosts over all other options is that you no longer need to be ahead on econ due to their efficiency. Not using SH means you will need to maintain an econ/base/gas advantage, but that's every single day for a zerg player anyway. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
July 15 2014 03:03 GMT
#3697
On July 15 2014 10:45 Zheryn wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 09:48 SC2John wrote: On July 15 2014 07:08 Zheryn wrote: So in my quest to try and get over 30% win rate in ZvT I've started playing some roach hydra, but I'm not really sure what to do. I'm trying HyuN 1/1 into 2/2 roach hydra. How do I play vs banshees (can't be out on map with roach only :o)? Outside of hitting 1/1 timing and then 2/2 roach hydra timing, what's the gameplan? I'm very confused about how to continue after that if I haven't killed him. How do I defend drops? Maybe someone has a few VODs or replays of pros playing roach hydra where they don't win with early timing? http://drop.sc/384530 me getting owned by drops and tanks http://drop.sc/384531 me winning vs quick MMM, but he had early medivacs and I feel like I was just lucky that he didn't drop me. No idea what I would do if he just kept me at home by dropping everywhere and then not giving me chance to hit timings. Okay, so first of all: Did you actually watch the video of HyuN's build? Did you watch the games that HyuN played? Or did you just make this build up? HyuN's build goes for a standard 4-queen opening into a 3rd base into roaches, not 2-base tech. This is probably the primary reason why you're having trouble hitting the timing as well as finding yourself **30** supply (15 roaches) behind where HyuN is at 10:30. If you're going to go 2-base roach, the roaches really have to do some early damage via either a timing or some type of clever harassment. If you insist on going 2-base roach, I would suggest incorporating a nydus worm or overlords drops (or both!) into your play in order to get something done with your roaches. You clearly have the money, so it shouldn't be difficult to squeeze that in there. Second, you really ought to scout more. Why do you even send overlords over to your opponent's base if they are literally never touched again the rest of the game? Third, your engagements are really sloppy. As roach/hydra, you literally want as close to a 360 degree surround as possible. If you fight in a straight line, you will lose. Horribly. So get used to have 2-3 groups of units so that you can easily scoop into a sandwich or a surround if you need to. When you do HyuN's build correctly, you hit a ridiculously powerful timing at 10:30 that the Terran WILL have trouble holding, especially if they went triple CC and double ebays before rax. To deal with drops, you just defend with 3-4 queens + reinforcement roaches while hitting your timing; if the Terran commits to something like a double drop, they will actually just lose the game at 10:30 to 70 supply of roaches (barring some kind of disastrous micro error or miraculous hold). If the Terran is well prepared for the push, HyuN just starts +2/+2 and a hydra den while adding on static defense in a few areas to deal with drops. Again, I think your biggest disadvantage is that you're playing this as a 2-base tech and not doing any damage with it. Note: I'm not saying it won't work because HyuN doesn't do it, but you need to get some kind of damage to justify 2-base roach; otherwise, it's better to just take 3 bases and go from there. EDIT: Your creep spread is exquisite though lol. Very beautifully and artfully done. My creep spread usually looks like my queens actually just took a shit all over the minimap. Thanks a lot for your lenghty answer! I watched the video and fenner mentioned "trying to sneak up a third base" at around 6:30, so I thought it was standard to get it a bit later, fail by me. I've actually spent the last few hours before I read your response looking through a bunch of VODs to find games where HyuN does the roach timing and I think I have a much better understanding now how the build works. I'm so unused to do someone else's build as I don't do a lot of builds and the ones I do are builds I've worked out on my own. So basically I need to try and take a third before 6:30 with my queens only and then get a couple of roaches out to hold off once he has 6 hellions and 2 reapers and then just drone up third and mass roach. Yeah my scouting is really bad across all MUs :/ I also don't really know what to change depending on what I scout since I've never played a style like this. Do you play this style anything and have any tips on what you need to change vs different things terran does? I will have to work on my engagements as well. Thanks for pointing that out. The part of the game I enjoy the most is macro/hitting timings, so I've always focused on that and am basically a big a-mover ^^ Thanks for the compliment! As I said, I've always focused more on stuff that is not units lol. I only started playing again last week after not playing for quite a few months, so it's nice that some things are still working for me. MMR decay got me to diamond and it took really long time to get to master again, only got it 2 days ago. Was hovering around top 10 diamond EU for ages. I guess it might be tougher to get master early in the season when all GM players also are in master, covering some of the 2%? Damn I have to get up in like 6 hours but it's just too damn fun to think about the game and plan stuff Glad to be back for a while atleast! Edit: I've been watching quite a few VODs now, and when done properly it seems really strong. How come we don't see roach hydra more often compared to muta ling bane? What are the big weaknesses that makes it not being standard play? Yeah, you want the 3rd up between 6:15-6:45 depending on the opening. My general rule is to get it up before hellions arrive, which is like ~6:30. Trying to get it up later is very very difficult unless you opened with some kind of speeding pressure to give you that space; otherwise, you have to wait until you have a decent number of queens/lings or a few roaches. General scouting tips: 1. Always poke around with an overlord around 6:00-7:00...this seems to be a divergent timing for every race in every matchup (usually when tech/infrastructure tends to go down after expanding). 2. Always overseer scout immediately upon lair completion. It's practically free, it gives you all the scouting info you need going into the mid game, and it guides your mid game plan. Against Terran, it scouts for mech vs bio; against Protoss, it scouts out 2-base attack vs 3rd base expansion; against Zerg, it lets you know either mutas or roaches, etc. It's just a good scout timing. 3. Pretty much everything else is covered with just being active with your units, spreading overlords, spreading creep, and paying attention to your minimap. I don't really play this style very much, no. I keep it in my arsenal as a good thing to mix in every once and a while, but I gravitate toward the more stable muta/ling/bling mid game. The difficulty with this build is that, if the Terran scouts it and gets a few tanks and doesn't play greedy, they'll end up ahead eventually. MMM + a few tanks just scales immensely with both upgrades and size, so the longer the Terran goes without making any significant trades, the further ahead they get. It's also very vulnerable to drops after the initial aggression, which can be very difficult to deal with if you don't get your static defense up and position your units well. In short, it hits like a sledgehammer at first, but chips and breaks over time until it's just not effective enough anymore. In theory, lategame for this style is a transition into SHs and infestors with mass static defense all around your bases, but games pretty much don't get there (maybe on ladder where anything can happen hehe). | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
July 15 2014 03:18 GMT
#3698
On July 15 2014 06:30 ThePastor wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 06:24 Alchemik wrote: Ok, so I'm struggling vs Protoss lately (vs Terran who goes for a lot of mines as well, but I know what do to here - just have better control). In the current meta, it's mostly stargate openings into a fast 3rd base (at least at my level of play, which is diamond). If they go for a 2-base all-in, I'm quite ok at defending them and the reason of a loss is way simpler - it's normally bad scout. But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. In my eyes (sc2john will correct me if wrong obv lol) you need to consider what your game plan is. Generally people will do a ling/hydra timing in order to slow down the protoss third to either overwhelm or go into a different tech. If your aim is to go for a roach/hydra/viper attack skip the first step and just get to this faster. Check out some vod's of pros and see how their strats go from one attack into something else really smoothly. Consider how they are moving from one set of units to another. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, a hydra/ling timing can just as easily serve the goal of trading for high gas units (colossus/void rays/sentries/immortals) while teching directly to hive as well. There are lots of different ways to go about doing things (which is what makes SC2 so beautiful). You just need to have an intelligent plan for how you're going to approach the game. Currently, my ZvP revolves around a specific hive tech timing with BLords/ultras/infestors/queens + corruptor/viper. I do this by opening double upgraded lings into hydra/ling (defensive OR offensive) -> optional muta/corruptor or muta/ling phase -> ultra/hydra/queen/viper to defend the big 3-base push, then add on corruptors and BLords to deal a finishing blow to the Protoss before they have tempests out. If this timing doesn't work, I usually have a significant bank built up on 5-6 bases which, I can pull upon to remax on mutas and base trade/kill the Protoss, who I've worked hard to contain on 3-4 bases the entire game. I've had a lot of trouble when the Protoss never attacks and just gears straight to the late game with VR/colossus. FPCs mentioned using muta/corruptor to counter that above, so that's a possibility for dealing with that. In situations where the Protoss gets to their death army + 4-6 tempests, you really just can't win unless you go SH, which makes me sad. So I try to avoid it by being aggro and slowing down the Protoss tech all game long. On July 15 2014 11:12 6xFPCs wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 06:30 ThePastor wrote: On July 15 2014 06:24 Alchemik wrote: Ok, so I'm struggling vs Protoss lately (vs Terran who goes for a lot of mines as well, but I know what do to here - just have better control). In the current meta, it's mostly stargate openings into a fast 3rd base (at least at my level of play, which is diamond). If they go for a 2-base all-in, I'm quite ok at defending them and the reason of a loss is way simpler - it's normally bad scout. But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. In my eyes (sc2john will correct me if wrong obv lol) you need to consider what your game plan is. Generally people will do a ling/hydra timing in order to slow down the protoss third to either overwhelm or go into a different tech. If your aim is to go for a roach/hydra/viper attack skip the first step and just get to this faster. Check out some vod's of pros and see how their strats go from one attack into something else really smoothly. Consider how they are moving from one set of units to another. In my opinion, if protoss takes an early third behind stargate play, you need to choose between committing to enough ling-hydra to take down the third, or macroing up to match his three-base econ and watching where he spends his huge gas income so that you can counter it, e.g., vipers. If you fail in taking out the third, you are behind (obviously.) and need to be very aware that he can leverage his three-base econ into a powerful attack before your fourth is up. So you will want to be ready for this, e.g., if he is going blink stalker and colossi, get a spire for corruptors to kill colossi and don't drone your fourth until you hold his attack. Or if he is going to max on VR colossi on three bases, get a fifth base and go to 10 gas muta-corruptor with double spire for upgrades. Basically what I'm saying is that in ZvP you always need to plan on how you will handle his upcoming tech choice. He is going to do something big and dangerous due to his tech advantage, so you have to counter it. Without a plan, you don't have a counter. So you'll trade badly, then his army efficiency will be able to snowball, until your better econ can't make up the difference and you lose. This is an oversimplification, but I think it's an effective way to think about ZvP. Regarding swarm host, I almost never play swarm host because I don't think it's fun for anyone involved. So I go from a roach-hydra midgame to hydra-viper, or a muta switch if I can establish enough bases (i.e., enough gas income). Vipers are troublesome for protoss (they need templar to cope), as are large numbers of mutas (need phoenix to cope), so it puts the ball back in their court to handle your tech--a nice change from the midgame. Roaches are not good lategame, however. At most you want a small handful to either stop zealot warp-ins (I strongly prefer spines because you need all the army supply you can get) or tank a few shots for the hydras, if you're going hydra-viper. Ideally, you will pull units to your hydras and never take any damage. Also, most Korean players seem to feel corruptor-viper is better than hydra-viper. I mostly agree, but if you have the gas to transition straight into corruptor-viper, then I think a muta switch should come first unless phoenix are already out. Note that the big advantage of swarm hosts over all other options is that you no longer need to be ahead on econ due to their efficiency. Not using SH means you will need to maintain an econ/base/gas advantage, but that's every single day for a zerg player anyway. It's interesting that you use muta/corruptor as a phase AFTER getting 4-5 bases. Personally, I like it better for getting to 4-5 bases, then transitioning into a gas-heavy hive tech army. Also, your hydra/viper army might get better results if you add 4ish ultras to the mix and grab a few infestors if you have the gas. Hydra/viper is amazing for dealing with high-tech armies like VR/colossus, I would think, but it seems like it would just get run over by templar at some point. I do like your idea to use muta/corruptor as a counter to VR/colossus. I may try that; I didn't realize until now, but that makes perfect sense. | ||
6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
July 15 2014 06:03 GMT
#3699
On July 15 2014 12:03 SC2John wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 10:45 Zheryn wrote: On July 15 2014 09:48 SC2John wrote: On July 15 2014 07:08 Zheryn wrote: So in my quest to try and get over 30% win rate in ZvT I've started playing some roach hydra, but I'm not really sure what to do. I'm trying HyuN 1/1 into 2/2 roach hydra. How do I play vs banshees (can't be out on map with roach only :o)? Outside of hitting 1/1 timing and then 2/2 roach hydra timing, what's the gameplan? I'm very confused about how to continue after that if I haven't killed him. How do I defend drops? Maybe someone has a few VODs or replays of pros playing roach hydra where they don't win with early timing? http://drop.sc/384530 me getting owned by drops and tanks http://drop.sc/384531 me winning vs quick MMM, but he had early medivacs and I feel like I was just lucky that he didn't drop me. No idea what I would do if he just kept me at home by dropping everywhere and then not giving me chance to hit timings. Okay, so first of all: Did you actually watch the video of HyuN's build? Did you watch the games that HyuN played? Or did you just make this build up? HyuN's build goes for a standard 4-queen opening into a 3rd base into roaches, not 2-base tech. This is probably the primary reason why you're having trouble hitting the timing as well as finding yourself **30** supply (15 roaches) behind where HyuN is at 10:30. If you're going to go 2-base roach, the roaches really have to do some early damage via either a timing or some type of clever harassment. If you insist on going 2-base roach, I would suggest incorporating a nydus worm or overlords drops (or both!) into your play in order to get something done with your roaches. You clearly have the money, so it shouldn't be difficult to squeeze that in there. Second, you really ought to scout more. Why do you even send overlords over to your opponent's base if they are literally never touched again the rest of the game? Third, your engagements are really sloppy. As roach/hydra, you literally want as close to a 360 degree surround as possible. If you fight in a straight line, you will lose. Horribly. So get used to have 2-3 groups of units so that you can easily scoop into a sandwich or a surround if you need to. When you do HyuN's build correctly, you hit a ridiculously powerful timing at 10:30 that the Terran WILL have trouble holding, especially if they went triple CC and double ebays before rax. To deal with drops, you just defend with 3-4 queens + reinforcement roaches while hitting your timing; if the Terran commits to something like a double drop, they will actually just lose the game at 10:30 to 70 supply of roaches (barring some kind of disastrous micro error or miraculous hold). If the Terran is well prepared for the push, HyuN just starts +2/+2 and a hydra den while adding on static defense in a few areas to deal with drops. Again, I think your biggest disadvantage is that you're playing this as a 2-base tech and not doing any damage with it. Note: I'm not saying it won't work because HyuN doesn't do it, but you need to get some kind of damage to justify 2-base roach; otherwise, it's better to just take 3 bases and go from there. EDIT: Your creep spread is exquisite though lol. Very beautifully and artfully done. My creep spread usually looks like my queens actually just took a shit all over the minimap. Thanks a lot for your lenghty answer! I watched the video and fenner mentioned "trying to sneak up a third base" at around 6:30, so I thought it was standard to get it a bit later, fail by me. I've actually spent the last few hours before I read your response looking through a bunch of VODs to find games where HyuN does the roach timing and I think I have a much better understanding now how the build works. I'm so unused to do someone else's build as I don't do a lot of builds and the ones I do are builds I've worked out on my own. So basically I need to try and take a third before 6:30 with my queens only and then get a couple of roaches out to hold off once he has 6 hellions and 2 reapers and then just drone up third and mass roach. Yeah my scouting is really bad across all MUs :/ I also don't really know what to change depending on what I scout since I've never played a style like this. Do you play this style anything and have any tips on what you need to change vs different things terran does? I will have to work on my engagements as well. Thanks for pointing that out. The part of the game I enjoy the most is macro/hitting timings, so I've always focused on that and am basically a big a-mover ^^ Thanks for the compliment! As I said, I've always focused more on stuff that is not units lol. I only started playing again last week after not playing for quite a few months, so it's nice that some things are still working for me. MMR decay got me to diamond and it took really long time to get to master again, only got it 2 days ago. Was hovering around top 10 diamond EU for ages. I guess it might be tougher to get master early in the season when all GM players also are in master, covering some of the 2%? Damn I have to get up in like 6 hours but it's just too damn fun to think about the game and plan stuff Glad to be back for a while atleast! Edit: I've been watching quite a few VODs now, and when done properly it seems really strong. How come we don't see roach hydra more often compared to muta ling bane? What are the big weaknesses that makes it not being standard play? Yeah, you want the 3rd up between 6:15-6:45 depending on the opening. My general rule is to get it up before hellions arrive, which is like ~6:30. Trying to get it up later is very very difficult unless you opened with some kind of speeding pressure to give you that space; otherwise, you have to wait until you have a decent number of queens/lings or a few roaches. General scouting tips: 1. Always poke around with an overlord around 6:00-7:00...this seems to be a divergent timing for every race in every matchup (usually when tech/infrastructure tends to go down after expanding). 2. Always overseer scout immediately upon lair completion. It's practically free, it gives you all the scouting info you need going into the mid game, and it guides your mid game plan. Against Terran, it scouts for mech vs bio; against Protoss, it scouts out 2-base attack vs 3rd base expansion; against Zerg, it lets you know either mutas or roaches, etc. It's just a good scout timing. 3. Pretty much everything else is covered with just being active with your units, spreading overlords, spreading creep, and paying attention to your minimap. I don't really play this style very much, no. I keep it in my arsenal as a good thing to mix in every once and a while, but I gravitate toward the more stable muta/ling/bling mid game. The difficulty with this build is that, if the Terran scouts it and gets a few tanks and doesn't play greedy, they'll end up ahead eventually. MMM + a few tanks just scales immensely with both upgrades and size, so the longer the Terran goes without making any significant trades, the further ahead they get. It's also very vulnerable to drops after the initial aggression, which can be very difficult to deal with if you don't get your static defense up and position your units well. In short, it hits like a sledgehammer at first, but chips and breaks over time until it's just not effective enough anymore. In theory, lategame for this style is a transition into SHs and infestors with mass static defense all around your bases, but games pretty much don't get there (maybe on ladder where anything can happen hehe). This description of the 1-1 roach timing is spot on. I want to discuss it further though, especially the followup, since I seem to be one of the few (the proud) roach and roach-hydra players in ZvT. And also I like to talk a lot. Basically, the threat of 1-1 roach is like that of immortal-sentry in WoL PvZ--the build itself is so good that the spectre of it can get you ahead. If he scans and sees two evos and a roach warren, he either prepares for it or he dies. So if you scout heavy bunkers and marauders and tanks (i.e., perfect defense against 1-1 roach timing) with the either the initial anti-hellion roaches or with an overlord or speedlings, just posture outside and get him to huddle in his base behind all that prep and not float his 3rd CC out. In the meantime, start your fourth, drone up some more, start 2-2, and choose a transition: burrow and burrow-movement for a "runby" (hyun does this, and recently too, but I can't seem to find the vod), or add hydras for the 2-2 followup. And obviously you should revel in the dirty protoss-like mindgame as you do this. Some replay examples... - Roach feint into burrow runby on Nimbus (rare to see turrets at the ramp on this map): http://drop.sc/384553 Note the patent-pending triple spore at my in-base natural. I do this every ZvT on Nimbus. (I also do the burrowed roach thing very often on Nimbus, but don't tell the terran players.) - Typical 1-1 roach kill: http://drop.sc/384554 He has a tank and bunkers, but no marauders, and the tank is exposed enough that it dies. Decent defense, but not perfect, and thus not enough. As for the lategame, since I try to play without swarmhosts, I stay on roach-hydra, but I add a few infestors and race for 3-3 while continuing to expand (since roach-hydra maxes out very very fast). It becomes an efficiency game, but unlike ling-bane-muta, I dump minerals into spores to deal with drops (3-5 per base as I bank minerals, I try to get enough to wipe medivacs before they can finish dropping marines), and because roach-hydra beats unstimmed bio (and dies very fast to stimmed bio), it becomes a back-and-forth fight in mid instead of you being dropped to death. The difference is that roaches can heal without limitation and quickly (faster than mutas!), and burrow harass is very hard for the terran to deal with--even when they have scans or turrets, upgraded burrowed roaches require a certain minimum dps to kill. Also, roaches do wonders against buildings because of their slow but heavy attacks. And burrowed roaches are as close to fire-and-forget drops as you can get without race-switching. Direct fights, you're dancing with tanks and he's dodging fungals. If you can draw a pack of bio out of tank range and fungal it, you can get free units, or force him to fully stim his army to protect them. You can also send 6ish burrowed roaches under the tanks or bio to draw fire. Also, don't be afraid to focus down medivacs with hydras, similar to what you might do with mutas. Hydras will kill medivacs faster, but have less mobility. However, I prefer hydras in this case, because mutas can't really catch medivacs due to boost. There's a world of stuff to do with roach-hydra play in ZvT, it's just not well-explored. Muta-ling-bane is still better because mutas are amazingly mobile and can mostly win a game by themselves, but I think roach-hydra-infestor can go toe-to-toe with bio in terms of harass and off-creep fights. The big thing to note about roach and roach-hydra is that you cannot usually fight stimmed bio, the dps is just too high unless you safely outnumber him. Sometimes you have to, in which case you fight until your roaches are gone, then run until the next wave of roaches are out. But do not take a fight vs stim unless you have a good reason to. | ||
6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
July 15 2014 06:40 GMT
#3700
On July 15 2014 12:18 SC2John wrote: Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 06:30 ThePastor wrote: On July 15 2014 06:24 Alchemik wrote: Ok, so I'm struggling vs Protoss lately (vs Terran who goes for a lot of mines as well, but I know what do to here - just have better control). In the current meta, it's mostly stargate openings into a fast 3rd base (at least at my level of play, which is diamond). If they go for a 2-base all-in, I'm quite ok at defending them and the reason of a loss is way simpler - it's normally bad scout. But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. In my eyes (sc2john will correct me if wrong obv lol) you need to consider what your game plan is. Generally people will do a ling/hydra timing in order to slow down the protoss third to either overwhelm or go into a different tech. If your aim is to go for a roach/hydra/viper attack skip the first step and just get to this faster. Check out some vod's of pros and see how their strats go from one attack into something else really smoothly. Consider how they are moving from one set of units to another. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, a hydra/ling timing can just as easily serve the goal of trading for high gas units (colossus/void rays/sentries/immortals) while teching directly to hive as well. There are lots of different ways to go about doing things (which is what makes SC2 so beautiful). You just need to have an intelligent plan for how you're going to approach the game. Currently, my ZvP revolves around a specific hive tech timing with BLords/ultras/infestors/queens + corruptor/viper. I do this by opening double upgraded lings into hydra/ling (defensive OR offensive) -> optional muta/corruptor or muta/ling phase -> ultra/hydra/queen/viper to defend the big 3-base push, then add on corruptors and BLords to deal a finishing blow to the Protoss before they have tempests out. If this timing doesn't work, I usually have a significant bank built up on 5-6 bases which, I can pull upon to remax on mutas and base trade/kill the Protoss, who I've worked hard to contain on 3-4 bases the entire game. I've had a lot of trouble when the Protoss never attacks and just gears straight to the late game with VR/colossus. FPCs mentioned using muta/corruptor to counter that above, so that's a possibility for dealing with that. In situations where the Protoss gets to their death army + 4-6 tempests, you really just can't win unless you go SH, which makes me sad. So I try to avoid it by being aggro and slowing down the Protoss tech all game long. Show nested quote + On July 15 2014 11:12 6xFPCs wrote: On July 15 2014 06:30 ThePastor wrote: On July 15 2014 06:24 Alchemik wrote: Ok, so I'm struggling vs Protoss lately (vs Terran who goes for a lot of mines as well, but I know what do to here - just have better control). In the current meta, it's mostly stargate openings into a fast 3rd base (at least at my level of play, which is diamond). If they go for a 2-base all-in, I'm quite ok at defending them and the reason of a loss is way simpler - it's normally bad scout. But I seem to not be able to kill a Protoss when he gets those 3 bases. Sure, sometimes I will win with 10:30 ling hydra timing (which is actually pretty good vs stargate into fast 3rd), but if I don't, I'm kind of lost. I mean, I try roach hydra viper attack after it, but normally it won't work... so what then? Maybe a 13:30 roach hydra viper max-out is better than ling hydra? Anyways, I try to avoid the swarm host. Is there a way to do that and still win late-game vs Protoss? I seem to lose everytime when they just sit at 3 bases and gather the deathball. Even tho it probably seems like a silver-level problem. In my eyes (sc2john will correct me if wrong obv lol) you need to consider what your game plan is. Generally people will do a ling/hydra timing in order to slow down the protoss third to either overwhelm or go into a different tech. If your aim is to go for a roach/hydra/viper attack skip the first step and just get to this faster. Check out some vod's of pros and see how their strats go from one attack into something else really smoothly. Consider how they are moving from one set of units to another. In my opinion, if protoss takes an early third behind stargate play, you need to choose between committing to enough ling-hydra to take down the third, or macroing up to match his three-base econ and watching where he spends his huge gas income so that you can counter it, e.g., vipers. If you fail in taking out the third, you are behind (obviously.) and need to be very aware that he can leverage his three-base econ into a powerful attack before your fourth is up. So you will want to be ready for this, e.g., if he is going blink stalker and colossi, get a spire for corruptors to kill colossi and don't drone your fourth until you hold his attack. Or if he is going to max on VR colossi on three bases, get a fifth base and go to 10 gas muta-corruptor with double spire for upgrades. Basically what I'm saying is that in ZvP you always need to plan on how you will handle his upcoming tech choice. He is going to do something big and dangerous due to his tech advantage, so you have to counter it. Without a plan, you don't have a counter. So you'll trade badly, then his army efficiency will be able to snowball, until your better econ can't make up the difference and you lose. This is an oversimplification, but I think it's an effective way to think about ZvP. Regarding swarm host, I almost never play swarm host because I don't think it's fun for anyone involved. So I go from a roach-hydra midgame to hydra-viper, or a muta switch if I can establish enough bases (i.e., enough gas income). Vipers are troublesome for protoss (they need templar to cope), as are large numbers of mutas (need phoenix to cope), so it puts the ball back in their court to handle your tech--a nice change from the midgame. Roaches are not good lategame, however. At most you want a small handful to either stop zealot warp-ins (I strongly prefer spines because you need all the army supply you can get) or tank a few shots for the hydras, if you're going hydra-viper. Ideally, you will pull units to your hydras and never take any damage. Also, most Korean players seem to feel corruptor-viper is better than hydra-viper. I mostly agree, but if you have the gas to transition straight into corruptor-viper, then I think a muta switch should come first unless phoenix are already out. Note that the big advantage of swarm hosts over all other options is that you no longer need to be ahead on econ due to their efficiency. Not using SH means you will need to maintain an econ/base/gas advantage, but that's every single day for a zerg player anyway. It's interesting that you use muta/corruptor as a phase AFTER getting 4-5 bases. Personally, I like it better for getting to 4-5 bases, then transitioning into a gas-heavy hive tech army. Also, your hydra/viper army might get better results if you add 4ish ultras to the mix and grab a few infestors if you have the gas. Hydra/viper is amazing for dealing with high-tech armies like VR/colossus, I would think, but it seems like it would just get run over by templar at some point. I do like your idea to use muta/corruptor as a counter to VR/colossus. I may try that; I didn't realize until now, but that makes perfect sense. Adding ultras sounds like a great idea, actually. Roaches often melt too fast to really protect the hydras, especially since the next warp-in will invariably be zealots. I'll have to test if the transition works out, but it'll definitely be a stronger army. I have huge problems with templar, they counter both hydras and vipers pretty hard. I've been using the vipers as a timing-esque solution to try to weaken/break his colossi-based army enough to push through and do damage with hydras, e.g., spend abducts on colossi and try to snipe the rest so I can break into a base. During this posturing, I try to get to something crazy like 6 bases (12 gas, plus 4 or 5 of the bases having 8 drones on minerals); this efficient and super-heavy gas focus means I can switch to a crazy number of air units after he invests in dealing with my hydra-viper composition (usually colossi, blink stalkers, then templar), hopefully after I've gotten good mileage out of the hydra-viper army. I can't seem to get comfortable with soo's method of going straight to muta-corruptor, which I think is what you're talking about in terms of using it to get to 4-5 bases. In addition, if the protoss macros up heavily alongside your transition, I feel like you both make it to heavy tech and then you're forced to fight muta-corruptor vs triple stargate phoenixes with range, which feels like a bad position for zerg (depending on huge fungals to win a fight is a bad sign) despite the potential for muta harass, I've only had a few experiences with losing too many corruptors while harassing at his base, and then getting my mutas picked apart all the way home. A high-gas swap means he might not be ready, or at least it's up to him to make the right move. I guess I'm thinking of several GSL finals where soo gets goes muta-corruptor and gets counter-macro'd into a loss, though I'll admit that this doesn't mean much without a serious analysis of those games. My takeaway was definitely that muta-corruptor as a way to secure bases means that you will get countered at the max-out, and you need a subsequent transition... to which he'll have a tempest switch ready to go, if not already out. | ||
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