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On November 26 2014 13:41 lichter wrote: The thread itself has become quite... testy. Both sides have questioned the sanity of the other, sure as they of their position. If we were to action every passive aggressive or mildly contentious post, no one would be spared. He changed his statement from a directly racist sentence (which I was about to action) to something more borderline. That isn't enough to action him, but it is something we take note of.
I do encourage you to keep reporting him if he continues posting similarly borderline statements. These things add up, so it's important to keep reporting in detail since we can't read every post made in the thread. Unrelated to xDaunt, there are situations when people toe the line between something actionable and something questionable, and it can be frustrating when it remains unactioned. However if the poster keeps making similar posts we do mark it down in their moderation notes.
For reference, I have no stake in this issue as I do not live in the US. I'm part of a minority, if that is relevant. I follow the news and read it, but I've no direct opinion on the matter.
I appreciate it. Honestly it would be great to talk to a black american Mod about it if that was possible. No disrespect, just they would have a shared unique perspective and may know how to explain how it's acceptable (particularly in context of his continuing posts) to say what he's saying.
Because he is really pushing it in my opinion. It seems he basically went from the declarative form of a racist statement to a racist* question with an insinuated racist* assertion. *(you could make a case to substitute ignorant for racist).
Informed black people know (whether they agree or not) that there have been many members of the black community saying that one should reserve judgment until all of the facts are known, called for peace, discouraged violence and looting on every possible occasion etc..
His pretending that they don't exist because 'he hasn't seen it' is part of the problem. It dismisses generations of being lied to, abused, and unjustly imprisoned as a reason for not immediately trusting the same 'system' that subjugated, and shamed them. It dismisses the fact that basically every black producer on the cable networks specifically booked guests who did something like he suggested.
It marginalizes all the people who may have wanted to say something like "I hope he goes to prison" but instead asked for a fair hearing of the evidence and peace.
He essentially says black conservatives can not speak for the black community because parts of the community don't like/ respect them... It's just so obscene it's hard to comprehend how it's not obvious.
EDIT: I take your hyperbole point. It just seems intentionally inflammatory to me, and it is based on a unchangeable characteristic, as opposed to an idea or political group (happens all the time in the thread).
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports.
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On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports.
Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American).
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imho, you could action all the problem posts and still about 1/2 the users in here would be fine; and most only need warnings rather than bans; so more aggressive modding would work fine. And of course, some people are only exasperated because they have to respond to nigh-trolling posts; and if there weren't such posts, they'd be able to keep a level head. I just dislike when discussion mostly consists of people trying to correct the extreme idiot points made by 1-2 extremists on each side; rather than better discussion.
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On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). wow dude, just wow. you seem very racistophobic from where i'm sitting.
so if you were to judge a serial killer you'd go to another serial killer to pass a verdict because you know, the later will be in on it and as such, would know better?. if something is objectively racist then it is by its own merits not by what other people (subjective)opinions are of it.
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On November 26 2014 17:52 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). wow dude, just wow. you seem very racistophobic from where i'm sitting. so if you were to judge a serial killer you'd go to another serial killer to pass a verdict because you know, the later will be in on it and as such, would know better?. if something is objectively racist then it is by its own merits not by what other people (subjective)opinions are of it.
Let's not equate being a Black, American, TL user with being a serial killer ?
And maybe not doing it while accusing me (not my statement) of being racistophobic whatever that even means.
Based on how you started this there is no way I am going to get baited into a discussion about what racism in America is or who gets to define what's racist or not.
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racism is a word with a definition. i'm not interested in knowing your feelings about what racism is or should be. there is no debate there. i wasn't equating anything. i was merely pointing out how your line of thought fits to/in/with different issues.
also, typing Black with a capital letter is racism since Black is not a nation of people; so unless Black is a name of something/someone ... what gives?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Disregarding the stupidity of your current conversation, I don't think writing black with a capital B is racist -.-
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On November 26 2014 21:31 Zealously wrote: Disregarding the stupidity of your current conversation, I don't think writing black with a capital B is racist -.- it's not, lots of black americans write it with a capital B as a sign of pride/empowerment.
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it doesn't matter if someone(else) thinks B in black is racist; it could be a name, it could be a quirk or whatever. the way he is using it and in the context he is using it, it has connotations to say the least, especially when its said for empowerment, as the above poster said. why would he need empowerment?, is he a victim?, victim of whom?, the White poster he quoted?. does he even know his color?, he could be black; would it matter if he'd be black?.
aespgtaerg, anyway i'm not doing this. the thing is what it is; whether one takes it at face value or beats around the bush first, well ... it's his problem.
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Has the general forum gotten worse with sharing it between LiquidHearth and LiquidDota?
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On November 27 2014 01:47 xM(Z wrote: it doesn't matter if someone(else) thinks B in black is racist; it could be a name, it could be a quirk or whatever. the way he is using it and in the context he is using it, it has connotations to say the least, especially when its said for empowerment, as the above poster said. why would he need empowerment?, is he a victim?, victim of whom?, the White poster he quoted?. does he even know his color?, he could be black; would it matter if he'd be black?.
aespgtaerg, anyway i'm not doing this. the thing is what it is; whether one takes it at face value or beats around the bush first, well ... it's his problem. Racist isn't the correct term. Victim is. Welcome to the world of black racial politics in the US.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware.
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Canada13372 Posts
On November 27 2014 06:19 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware.
I don't think its necessarily an issue whether there are or aren't either. In my experience, I don't know the ethnicity of anyone on TL before i begin interacting with them for a prolonged period of time and that is AFTER they've been taken on as TL staff or volunteer.
This being said we have a very diverse group of people on staff as it is, and generally the mods are pretty intelligent fair reasonable people who are not racist in any way so we should steer away from that conversation entirely.
With regards to the post in question which appears like thinly veiled racism, I would have agreed with you 100% until I saw that the poster did change his post. It is poorly worded, but I feel as though its the result of poor wording, not some racist attitude. I think Lichter's decompression of that post (in vacuum) is fine.
This all being said, part of the problem, I will admit, is that I am not American. I have noticed that the way race and racism is perceived in the US is much much more sensitive than other places in the world where something being worded poorly is construed for racism when the initial intent is not racist.
I think this is one of those situations where you as the user and we as the moderating team need to take note of:
1) the person posting these things 2) the way they said it 3) give the benefit of the doubt - because the poster made effort to be less inflammatory 4) follow up on future posts on the same topic 5) action these future posts considering all the above
A kneejerk reaction would be bad, and I think taking a calm, measured approach is generally better. Of course please, continue to report the posts you deem sanctionable and of low quality and we will consider them as a whole - please however if you feel that the post is one of many that are borderling make this clear to us. This will prompt us to spend more time carefully reading the other posts and come to a decision based on more than just the one reported post.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 27 2014 08:01 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 06:19 motbob wrote:On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware. This being said we have a very diverse group of people on staff as it is. What is your definition of diverse? I am pretty sure TL staff members are the opposite of diverse.
That's not to say that our moderation suffers as a result. And that's not to say that a black mod would be a better mod in the Ferguson thread. In fact, it could be argued that the opposite would be true.
On another topic: GreenHorizons said that "There is so much latent racism wrapped up in that post it's kind of ridiculous." My personal opinion is that latent racism is not actionable. Dog whistles, while objectionable, are generally not actionable from a mod perspective. The job of mods is not to ban people for the worst possible interpretation of their posts.
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In fact, it could be argued that the opposite would be true.
Apart from it being moot anyway, this statement is pretty wrong. You're suggesting already that a black mod makes for a worse mod in the ferguson thread, because.. what, exactly? If you take that route, Greenhorizon is actually right. White mods judging perceived racism against blacks wouldn't work either.
I'm not saying that a black mod would do a better job, but it's actually completely in the realm of possibility that he does. If you want to argue that he's a worse mod, you already imply something pretty shitty. Just saying.
edit:
My personal opinion is that latent racism is not actionable. Dog whistles, while objectionable, are generally not actionable from a mod perspective.
Latent racism and dog whistles have nothing in common. At least not by definition.
Here's a pretty good read from a native-americans perspective on latent racism.
https://www.tworowtimes.com/opinions/columns/lets-talk-native/latent-racism-and-blatant-racism/
Quintessence: latent racism is blatant racism for people who are "concerned".
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Could be; or could be they're overreacting; it's hard to tell the difference from an objective standpoint; as there's always some gray area. I didn't find the link to say what you said it says; but it was a little unclear to me no the whole. Too bad people can't just let go of races and move on.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 27 2014 12:43 m4ini wrote:Apart from it being moot anyway, this statement is pretty wrong. You're suggesting already that a black mod makes for a worse mod in the ferguson thread, because.. what, exactly? If you take that route, Greenhorizon is actually right. White mods judging perceived racism against blacks wouldn't work either. I'm not saying that a black mod would do a better job, but it's actually completely in the realm of possibility that he does. If you want to argue that he's a worse mod, you already imply something pretty shitty. Just saying.
I need to add a disclaimer here that my opinions in this thread do not represent the opinions of the mod team or Team Liquid as an entity.
First, It's interesting to me that you think that even making the argument is automatically shitty.
Second, let me explain what I am talking about when I say that it could be argued that a black mod would do a worse job. Let me be clear: I don't actually think that if TL hired a black moderator, that the color of his skin would make it a good thing for the mod to stay out of the Ferguson thread.
But past experience on TL has made it clear to me that even perceived biases in moderation should be avoided when possible. Don't jump to conclusions. I am not saying that a black mod would be biased when modding matters of race.
Let's take Kwark as an example. I agree with Kwark's moderation decisions where the issue of rape is concerned. However, it is clear to anyone who has witnessed his participation in discussions on that subject that he (1) has a great deal of knowledge on the subject and (2) has strong opinions which flow from his knowledge. Generally the application of this knowledge takes place when he states his opinions in threads about rape. But sometimes his strong opinions come through in his moderation. Sometimes his mod actions look something like this: "You think rape is X. Rape is actually Y. To think that rape is X is disgusting and has no place on TL." There have been multiple threads in this forum objecting to this type of moderation. Again, I agree with Kwark's opinions and mod actions on this matter, but it can't be denied that they create controversy.
Let us imagine that we had a mod who was well-versed in black history. You know, someone who has at least read Kindred, Native Son, the Faulkner books that dealt with race most directly (I am thinking primarily of Intruder in the Dust here), and etc. Someone active in the pursuit of social justice who actually knows what the term "dog-whistle" means and could name five examples in common discourse at the drop of a hat. This mod could be black or white.
What is the proper role of the application of this mod's knowledge? The knowledge of the journey of the black man in America and the trials he has faced in the past and today? The knowledge of the harmfulness of white attitudes that white people might not consider to be harmful? In my opinion the best application of this knowledge would be via participation in threads on race issues rather than liberally applied mod actions. As far as racism "under the surface" is concerned, I would rather see discussion about such racism rather than a correctional action, especially in cases where a large possibility exists that the TL user doesn't understand the harmful effect his words might have, and especially in cases where the idea that language or concepts are harmful is not accepted in the mainstream. Obviously, this creates a problem: black activism is almost entirely outside the mainstream. That said, this principle must still stand. Using a third person masculine pronoun in certain situations ("If I were to hire a lawyer, he would...") is sexist. Nevertheless, we do not pursue mod actions in response to such uses, and such mod action has never really been contemplated.
I believe it would be difficult for a mod who invested a large part of his (see?) life into fighting for social justice on the issue of race to enter the Ferguson thread and not blow his top. It is this idea that led me to write what I wrote.
I defer to your knowledge about what latent racism is. However, as I alluded to above, the fact that latent = blatant for knowledgeable people does not justify uniform mod actions for latent and blatant racism.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On November 27 2014 10:53 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 08:01 ZeromuS wrote:On November 27 2014 06:19 motbob wrote:On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware. This being said we have a very diverse group of people on staff as it is. What is your definition of diverse? I am pretty sure TL staff members are the opposite of diverse.
This is a pie chart of TL Staff nationality (not race, mind) based on known data. No actually countries, because, you know, secrets.
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Having spent some time (not much) speaking to kwark about his hot button issue, I think motbob has a point, now that he has finally explained it. I stay out of topics on my personal issue of that kind because blind zealotry in pursuit of a good cause, is still blind zealotry and may be counter productive.
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