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http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/471635-mental-health-ramblings?page=3#42
How is this post only a warning? I understand I have veteran status on TL but imo this is worth at least a 2 day ban, I think you guys are getting way too lenient with posting standards in the last few months/year
(No i'm not martyring with this post, honest discussion here)
User was temp banned for this post.
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Lorning
Belgica34430 Posts
imo this is worth at least a 2 day ban
30 at least
kind off tasteless, even for you
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Just to clarify, this thread is about moderation on TL as a whole, not specifically my post. I've noticed almost all users in the Automated Ban List are 1 or 0 post users, on average (real)users are only getting warnings at worst, and even obvious posts against the 10 commandments are being non actioned.
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your Country52796 Posts
I've personally noticed a lot of warnings for balance whine in the past months/year that would have been bans a few years ago. I don't venture outside the SC2 forums a ton so I don't really notice those sorts of warnings/bans. Was that post specifically made in order to test this theory?
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The post was not made specifically to test the theory, I legitimately dislike SetGuitarsToKill so I wrote something mean in his blog. I expected to get banned for it, only receiving a warning prompted me to make this website feedback thread.
I'm looking for thoughts from active mods on the standards of posting right now vs say 2011 or 2012
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Setting your country tag to romania tricked the mods into thinking that everything you write is sarcastic.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
dw im gonna take my bad cop role more seriously now
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Dislike me? I mean, I understand, I'm quite the whiny asshole but still, kind of harsh.
I'm very sorry if my posts on here have upset or angered anyone. I, from the bottom of my heart, want to make up for my substandard history on this site. If you have anything you want to say to me, positive or negative, feel free to message me. I promise I'm trying to make amends.
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TLADT24917 Posts
well, I guess you got your wish OP lol. Having said that, yes, I've noticed that mods aren't as harsh when actioning bad posts. I've had first hand experience with it and don't agree with them being that lenient. Also, I think you could've just as easily made this feedback thread without posting such a negative response in SetGuitarsToKill's blog. I mean, someone is saying they have depression and your first line is kill yourself? You could've just ignored the blog. No reason to comment if it's only meant to be a hateful message!
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On November 22 2014 10:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Dislike me? I mean, I understand, I'm quite the whiny asshole but still, kind of harsh.
I'm very sorry if my posts on here have upset or angered anyone. I, from the bottom of my heart, want to make up for my substandard history on this site. If you have anything you want to say to me, positive or negative, feel free to message me. I promise I'm trying to make amends. dude, i dunno what's going on here with you and dodgin, but what he said in your blog is extremely fucked up and for him to tell a depressed/mentally ill person to commit suicide says to me that he has some severe problems of his own. you have nothing to apologize for
people have gone to jail for encouraging suicide, it's a huge deal and not a joke http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/16/minnesota-man-sentenced-to-178-days-in-prison-for-encouraging-canadian-students-suicide/
even if it was part of some kind of moderation experiment that really does not excuse it even slightly
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On November 22 2014 14:16 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 10:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Dislike me? I mean, I understand, I'm quite the whiny asshole but still, kind of harsh.
I'm very sorry if my posts on here have upset or angered anyone. I, from the bottom of my heart, want to make up for my substandard history on this site. If you have anything you want to say to me, positive or negative, feel free to message me. I promise I'm trying to make amends. dude, i dunno what's going on here with you and dodgin, but what he said in your blog is extremely fucked up and for him to tell a depressed/mentally ill person to commit suicide says to me that he has some severe problems of his own. you have nothing to apologize for people have gone to jail for encouraging suicide, it's a huge deal and not a joke http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/16/minnesota-man-sentenced-to-178-days-in-prison-for-encouraging-canadian-students-suicide/even if it was part of some kind of moderation experiment that really does not excuse it even slightly
I wasn't aware there was anything going on between me and Dodgin until today, but apparently the dude hates me. And I'm aware that encouraging suicide is illegal, I figured it must be in jest, as if he didn't want me to do it. I guess not though. If nothing else, it helps me in perspective, my posts are annoying to some.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 22 2014 15:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 14:16 brickrd wrote:On November 22 2014 10:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Dislike me? I mean, I understand, I'm quite the whiny asshole but still, kind of harsh.
I'm very sorry if my posts on here have upset or angered anyone. I, from the bottom of my heart, want to make up for my substandard history on this site. If you have anything you want to say to me, positive or negative, feel free to message me. I promise I'm trying to make amends. dude, i dunno what's going on here with you and dodgin, but what he said in your blog is extremely fucked up and for him to tell a depressed/mentally ill person to commit suicide says to me that he has some severe problems of his own. you have nothing to apologize for people have gone to jail for encouraging suicide, it's a huge deal and not a joke http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/16/minnesota-man-sentenced-to-178-days-in-prison-for-encouraging-canadian-students-suicide/even if it was part of some kind of moderation experiment that really does not excuse it even slightly I wasn't aware there was anything going on between me and Dodgin until today, but apparently the dude hates me. And I'm aware that encouraging suicide is illegal, I figured it must be in jest, as if he didn't want me to do it. I guess not though. If nothing else, it helps me in perspective, my posts are annoying to some. I highly doubt Dodgin hates (dislikes your posting, sure) and I'm pretty sure he said it in jest/to be edgy. Stupid thing to say for sure, but I find it extremely unlikely that he'd have anything serious against you personally.
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On November 22 2014 17:15 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 15:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On November 22 2014 14:16 brickrd wrote:On November 22 2014 10:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Dislike me? I mean, I understand, I'm quite the whiny asshole but still, kind of harsh.
I'm very sorry if my posts on here have upset or angered anyone. I, from the bottom of my heart, want to make up for my substandard history on this site. If you have anything you want to say to me, positive or negative, feel free to message me. I promise I'm trying to make amends. dude, i dunno what's going on here with you and dodgin, but what he said in your blog is extremely fucked up and for him to tell a depressed/mentally ill person to commit suicide says to me that he has some severe problems of his own. you have nothing to apologize for people have gone to jail for encouraging suicide, it's a huge deal and not a joke http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/16/minnesota-man-sentenced-to-178-days-in-prison-for-encouraging-canadian-students-suicide/even if it was part of some kind of moderation experiment that really does not excuse it even slightly I wasn't aware there was anything going on between me and Dodgin until today, but apparently the dude hates me. And I'm aware that encouraging suicide is illegal, I figured it must be in jest, as if he didn't want me to do it. I guess not though. If nothing else, it helps me in perspective, my posts are annoying to some. I highly doubt Dodgin hates (dislikes your posting, sure) and I'm pretty sure he said it in jest/to be edgy. Stupid thing to say for sure, but I find it extremely unlikely that he'd have anything serious against you personally.
Disliking my posting is totally normal, plenty have told me to fuck off on here. If he does have something personally against me, he can let me know tomorrow!
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I don't hate you as a person, I don't know you as a person so how could I?
Also I'd like to apologize for the post, obviously it was extremely out of line and I should be lucky all I got was a 2 day ban for it. It was a rash decision to make the post.(I didn't actually read your blog, I came home to skype messages from other TL users talking about your blog and I was encouraged to make that post, in jest of course, won't name any names)
Back on topic, I'm wondering if the change in moderation is possibly a product of a declining userbase? I've heard some theories about " nazi " modding scaring away users and since TL isn't as active as it once was, the standards were relaxed for that reason. Or is it maybe just a new generation of mods with different ideals? Is Plexa still in charge of TL modding or is it KadaverBB now?
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there are no ideals, everything now is labelized and judged based on political correctness so if you go against the grain you'll get banned; it's just a mater of when.
the dumb but funny is just not serious enough now.
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As I always have, I consider the standards for moderation to be too lax on the site; especially in gen discussion, where very poor standards are routinely allowed, thus degrading the discussions with lots of nonsense.
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On November 25 2014 12:59 zlefin wrote: As I always have, I consider the standards for moderation to be too lax on the site; especially in gen discussion, where very poor standards are routinely allowed, thus degrading the discussions with lots of nonsense.
Yeah someone says this...
The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
And the guy calling him out for racist posts is the one who get's banned and he doesn't even get a warning... It ain't easy being black, even on the internet...
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
He edited his post to reflect a more reasonable opinion.
The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community).
He's saying that he's unsure if there are members of the black community that acknowledge that acquittal was the right decision but still believe that racial unfairness is present in the justice system, and no longer "there are no sane people in the black community". I was about to action him for that post (I was literally one button press away), but saw that he had changed it. No reason to punish him for a previous version of the post if he realized he was wrong to say it and changed it on his own.
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On November 26 2014 11:16 lichter wrote:He edited his post to reflect a more reasonable opinion. Show nested quote +The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Wilson should have been acquitted but otherwise desire to challenge the racial unfairness in the justice system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the black community). He's saying that he's unsure if there are members of the black community that acknowledge that acquittal was the right decision but still believe that racial unfairness is present in the justice system, and no longer "there are no sane people in the black community". I was about to action him for that post (I was literally one button press away), but saw that he had changed it. No reason to punish him for a previous version of the post if he realized he was wrong to say it and changed it on his own.
I appreciate your feedback, but I disagree with your assessment.
What he made clear, was that if a black person didn't make up their mind (presumably based on the evidence) that the officer shouldn't have even went to trial than they weren't sane. And that since he hasn't seen the 'black community' say such (though many have), he was 'unsure' whether there were any sane people in 'the black community'
There is so much latent racism wrapped up in that post it's kind of ridiculous.
EDIT: I'm not sure if you noticed that we quoted the same post.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
The thread itself has become quite... testy. Both sides have questioned the sanity of the other, sure as they of their position. If we were to action every passive aggressive or mildly contentious post, no one would be spared. He changed his statement from a directly racist sentence (which I was about to action) to something more borderline. That isn't enough to action him, but it is something we take note of.
I do encourage you to keep reporting him if he continues posting similarly borderline statements. These things add up, so it's important to keep reporting in detail since we can't read every post made in the thread. Unrelated to xDaunt, there are situations when people toe the line between something actionable and something questionable, and it can be frustrating when it remains unactioned. However if the poster keeps making similar posts we do mark it down in their moderation notes.
For reference, I have no stake in this issue as I do not live in the US. I'm part of a minority, if that is relevant. I follow the news and read it, but I've no direct opinion on the matter.
On November 26 2014 13:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 12:44 xDaunt wrote:On November 26 2014 10:37 lichter wrote: xDaunt changed his post to something more reasonable. If he had kept it, he would have been actioned as well. We don't punish people when they change their minds unless it's especially egregious.
Ace had directly insulted ("pos", "retard", etc) someone over the past 2 days in that thread 4 times already, receiving 2 warnings. He was banned for a reason. Well, I wouldn't say that I changed my mind so much as I fixed a bad error. My original post was sloppily written and didn't convey what I wanted it to. I am still interpreting it to mean you don't think the majority of the 'black community' is 'sane'. Or more precisely that you were questioning whether or not sane members of the 'black community' existed. When I pointed to some members of the black community who fit his definition of sane and had made so clear on national television he responds with. Show nested quote + I only point out that black conservatives shouldn't count because they are clearly outliers when compared to the black community as a whole, which also generally treats black conservatives fairly badly. Put it a more frequent touched context: The only sane people are those who acknowledge that Marriage is only between a man and a woman but otherwise desire to challenge the sexual preference unfairness in the legal system (and I don't even know if any of these exist in the LGBT community). To me that sounds like a pretty bad thing to say. I guess it's a fair thing to say though by these standards, no?
If you force me to make an analogous context for your statement, we're going to be headed into dangerous territory. And I'd prefer to avoid that.
In any case, the key word here is 'sane'. On the one hand, it can literally mean the stability of one's mental faculties. On the other hand, it is sometimes used as a hyperbolic substitute for "reasonable" or "levelheaded". Reading some recent posts of the user in question, I deduced that his statement meant the latter. It's a heated subject and it's easy to use hyperbole and heavy words to get ones point across. But to ban him for diction, when he clearly attempted to rewrite his post to be less inflammatory, seemed excessive.
I still consider it a dangerous statement and marked it in his mod notes though, so that if he proved later on that he did actually mean that people were literally crazy, that this post would weigh against him. It is possible that I give him too much credit in his choice of words, so reporting future posts is important to solidify the case against him.
Guilty beyond reasonable doubt and all that.
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On November 26 2014 13:41 lichter wrote: The thread itself has become quite... testy. Both sides have questioned the sanity of the other, sure as they of their position. If we were to action every passive aggressive or mildly contentious post, no one would be spared. He changed his statement from a directly racist sentence (which I was about to action) to something more borderline. That isn't enough to action him, but it is something we take note of.
I do encourage you to keep reporting him if he continues posting similarly borderline statements. These things add up, so it's important to keep reporting in detail since we can't read every post made in the thread. Unrelated to xDaunt, there are situations when people toe the line between something actionable and something questionable, and it can be frustrating when it remains unactioned. However if the poster keeps making similar posts we do mark it down in their moderation notes.
For reference, I have no stake in this issue as I do not live in the US. I'm part of a minority, if that is relevant. I follow the news and read it, but I've no direct opinion on the matter.
I appreciate it. Honestly it would be great to talk to a black american Mod about it if that was possible. No disrespect, just they would have a shared unique perspective and may know how to explain how it's acceptable (particularly in context of his continuing posts) to say what he's saying.
Because he is really pushing it in my opinion. It seems he basically went from the declarative form of a racist statement to a racist* question with an insinuated racist* assertion. *(you could make a case to substitute ignorant for racist).
Informed black people know (whether they agree or not) that there have been many members of the black community saying that one should reserve judgment until all of the facts are known, called for peace, discouraged violence and looting on every possible occasion etc..
His pretending that they don't exist because 'he hasn't seen it' is part of the problem. It dismisses generations of being lied to, abused, and unjustly imprisoned as a reason for not immediately trusting the same 'system' that subjugated, and shamed them. It dismisses the fact that basically every black producer on the cable networks specifically booked guests who did something like he suggested.
It marginalizes all the people who may have wanted to say something like "I hope he goes to prison" but instead asked for a fair hearing of the evidence and peace.
He essentially says black conservatives can not speak for the black community because parts of the community don't like/ respect them... It's just so obscene it's hard to comprehend how it's not obvious.
EDIT: I take your hyperbole point. It just seems intentionally inflammatory to me, and it is based on a unchangeable characteristic, as opposed to an idea or political group (happens all the time in the thread).
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports.
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On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports.
Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American).
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imho, you could action all the problem posts and still about 1/2 the users in here would be fine; and most only need warnings rather than bans; so more aggressive modding would work fine. And of course, some people are only exasperated because they have to respond to nigh-trolling posts; and if there weren't such posts, they'd be able to keep a level head. I just dislike when discussion mostly consists of people trying to correct the extreme idiot points made by 1-2 extremists on each side; rather than better discussion.
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On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). wow dude, just wow. you seem very racistophobic from where i'm sitting.
so if you were to judge a serial killer you'd go to another serial killer to pass a verdict because you know, the later will be in on it and as such, would know better?. if something is objectively racist then it is by its own merits not by what other people (subjective)opinions are of it.
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On November 26 2014 17:52 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). wow dude, just wow. you seem very racistophobic from where i'm sitting. so if you were to judge a serial killer you'd go to another serial killer to pass a verdict because you know, the later will be in on it and as such, would know better?. if something is objectively racist then it is by its own merits not by what other people (subjective)opinions are of it.
Let's not equate being a Black, American, TL user with being a serial killer ?
And maybe not doing it while accusing me (not my statement) of being racistophobic whatever that even means.
Based on how you started this there is no way I am going to get baited into a discussion about what racism in America is or who gets to define what's racist or not.
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racism is a word with a definition. i'm not interested in knowing your feelings about what racism is or should be. there is no debate there. i wasn't equating anything. i was merely pointing out how your line of thought fits to/in/with different issues.
also, typing Black with a capital letter is racism since Black is not a nation of people; so unless Black is a name of something/someone ... what gives?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Disregarding the stupidity of your current conversation, I don't think writing black with a capital B is racist -.-
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On November 26 2014 21:31 Zealously wrote: Disregarding the stupidity of your current conversation, I don't think writing black with a capital B is racist -.- it's not, lots of black americans write it with a capital B as a sign of pride/empowerment.
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it doesn't matter if someone(else) thinks B in black is racist; it could be a name, it could be a quirk or whatever. the way he is using it and in the context he is using it, it has connotations to say the least, especially when its said for empowerment, as the above poster said. why would he need empowerment?, is he a victim?, victim of whom?, the White poster he quoted?. does he even know his color?, he could be black; would it matter if he'd be black?.
aespgtaerg, anyway i'm not doing this. the thing is what it is; whether one takes it at face value or beats around the bush first, well ... it's his problem.
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Has the general forum gotten worse with sharing it between LiquidHearth and LiquidDota?
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On November 27 2014 01:47 xM(Z wrote: it doesn't matter if someone(else) thinks B in black is racist; it could be a name, it could be a quirk or whatever. the way he is using it and in the context he is using it, it has connotations to say the least, especially when its said for empowerment, as the above poster said. why would he need empowerment?, is he a victim?, victim of whom?, the White poster he quoted?. does he even know his color?, he could be black; would it matter if he'd be black?.
aespgtaerg, anyway i'm not doing this. the thing is what it is; whether one takes it at face value or beats around the bush first, well ... it's his problem. Racist isn't the correct term. Victim is. Welcome to the world of black racial politics in the US.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware.
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Canada13372 Posts
On November 27 2014 06:19 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware.
I don't think its necessarily an issue whether there are or aren't either. In my experience, I don't know the ethnicity of anyone on TL before i begin interacting with them for a prolonged period of time and that is AFTER they've been taken on as TL staff or volunteer.
This being said we have a very diverse group of people on staff as it is, and generally the mods are pretty intelligent fair reasonable people who are not racist in any way so we should steer away from that conversation entirely.
With regards to the post in question which appears like thinly veiled racism, I would have agreed with you 100% until I saw that the poster did change his post. It is poorly worded, but I feel as though its the result of poor wording, not some racist attitude. I think Lichter's decompression of that post (in vacuum) is fine.
This all being said, part of the problem, I will admit, is that I am not American. I have noticed that the way race and racism is perceived in the US is much much more sensitive than other places in the world where something being worded poorly is construed for racism when the initial intent is not racist.
I think this is one of those situations where you as the user and we as the moderating team need to take note of:
1) the person posting these things 2) the way they said it 3) give the benefit of the doubt - because the poster made effort to be less inflammatory 4) follow up on future posts on the same topic 5) action these future posts considering all the above
A kneejerk reaction would be bad, and I think taking a calm, measured approach is generally better. Of course please, continue to report the posts you deem sanctionable and of low quality and we will consider them as a whole - please however if you feel that the post is one of many that are borderling make this clear to us. This will prompt us to spend more time carefully reading the other posts and come to a decision based on more than just the one reported post.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 27 2014 08:01 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 06:19 motbob wrote:On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware. This being said we have a very diverse group of people on staff as it is. What is your definition of diverse? I am pretty sure TL staff members are the opposite of diverse.
That's not to say that our moderation suffers as a result. And that's not to say that a black mod would be a better mod in the Ferguson thread. In fact, it could be argued that the opposite would be true.
On another topic: GreenHorizons said that "There is so much latent racism wrapped up in that post it's kind of ridiculous." My personal opinion is that latent racism is not actionable. Dog whistles, while objectionable, are generally not actionable from a mod perspective. The job of mods is not to ban people for the worst possible interpretation of their posts.
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In fact, it could be argued that the opposite would be true.
Apart from it being moot anyway, this statement is pretty wrong. You're suggesting already that a black mod makes for a worse mod in the ferguson thread, because.. what, exactly? If you take that route, Greenhorizon is actually right. White mods judging perceived racism against blacks wouldn't work either.
I'm not saying that a black mod would do a better job, but it's actually completely in the realm of possibility that he does. If you want to argue that he's a worse mod, you already imply something pretty shitty. Just saying.
edit:
My personal opinion is that latent racism is not actionable. Dog whistles, while objectionable, are generally not actionable from a mod perspective.
Latent racism and dog whistles have nothing in common. At least not by definition.
Here's a pretty good read from a native-americans perspective on latent racism.
https://www.tworowtimes.com/opinions/columns/lets-talk-native/latent-racism-and-blatant-racism/
Quintessence: latent racism is blatant racism for people who are "concerned".
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Could be; or could be they're overreacting; it's hard to tell the difference from an objective standpoint; as there's always some gray area. I didn't find the link to say what you said it says; but it was a little unclear to me no the whole. Too bad people can't just let go of races and move on.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 27 2014 12:43 m4ini wrote:Apart from it being moot anyway, this statement is pretty wrong. You're suggesting already that a black mod makes for a worse mod in the ferguson thread, because.. what, exactly? If you take that route, Greenhorizon is actually right. White mods judging perceived racism against blacks wouldn't work either. I'm not saying that a black mod would do a better job, but it's actually completely in the realm of possibility that he does. If you want to argue that he's a worse mod, you already imply something pretty shitty. Just saying.
I need to add a disclaimer here that my opinions in this thread do not represent the opinions of the mod team or Team Liquid as an entity.
First, It's interesting to me that you think that even making the argument is automatically shitty.
Second, let me explain what I am talking about when I say that it could be argued that a black mod would do a worse job. Let me be clear: I don't actually think that if TL hired a black moderator, that the color of his skin would make it a good thing for the mod to stay out of the Ferguson thread.
But past experience on TL has made it clear to me that even perceived biases in moderation should be avoided when possible. Don't jump to conclusions. I am not saying that a black mod would be biased when modding matters of race.
Let's take Kwark as an example. I agree with Kwark's moderation decisions where the issue of rape is concerned. However, it is clear to anyone who has witnessed his participation in discussions on that subject that he (1) has a great deal of knowledge on the subject and (2) has strong opinions which flow from his knowledge. Generally the application of this knowledge takes place when he states his opinions in threads about rape. But sometimes his strong opinions come through in his moderation. Sometimes his mod actions look something like this: "You think rape is X. Rape is actually Y. To think that rape is X is disgusting and has no place on TL." There have been multiple threads in this forum objecting to this type of moderation. Again, I agree with Kwark's opinions and mod actions on this matter, but it can't be denied that they create controversy.
Let us imagine that we had a mod who was well-versed in black history. You know, someone who has at least read Kindred, Native Son, the Faulkner books that dealt with race most directly (I am thinking primarily of Intruder in the Dust here), and etc. Someone active in the pursuit of social justice who actually knows what the term "dog-whistle" means and could name five examples in common discourse at the drop of a hat. This mod could be black or white.
What is the proper role of the application of this mod's knowledge? The knowledge of the journey of the black man in America and the trials he has faced in the past and today? The knowledge of the harmfulness of white attitudes that white people might not consider to be harmful? In my opinion the best application of this knowledge would be via participation in threads on race issues rather than liberally applied mod actions. As far as racism "under the surface" is concerned, I would rather see discussion about such racism rather than a correctional action, especially in cases where a large possibility exists that the TL user doesn't understand the harmful effect his words might have, and especially in cases where the idea that language or concepts are harmful is not accepted in the mainstream. Obviously, this creates a problem: black activism is almost entirely outside the mainstream. That said, this principle must still stand. Using a third person masculine pronoun in certain situations ("If I were to hire a lawyer, he would...") is sexist. Nevertheless, we do not pursue mod actions in response to such uses, and such mod action has never really been contemplated.
I believe it would be difficult for a mod who invested a large part of his (see?) life into fighting for social justice on the issue of race to enter the Ferguson thread and not blow his top. It is this idea that led me to write what I wrote.
I defer to your knowledge about what latent racism is. However, as I alluded to above, the fact that latent = blatant for knowledgeable people does not justify uniform mod actions for latent and blatant racism.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On November 27 2014 10:53 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 08:01 ZeromuS wrote:On November 27 2014 06:19 motbob wrote:On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware. This being said we have a very diverse group of people on staff as it is. What is your definition of diverse? I am pretty sure TL staff members are the opposite of diverse.
This is a pie chart of TL Staff nationality (not race, mind) based on known data. No actually countries, because, you know, secrets.
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Having spent some time (not much) speaking to kwark about his hot button issue, I think motbob has a point, now that he has finally explained it. I stay out of topics on my personal issue of that kind because blind zealotry in pursuit of a good cause, is still blind zealotry and may be counter productive.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 27 2014 16:16 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 10:53 motbob wrote:On November 27 2014 08:01 ZeromuS wrote:On November 27 2014 06:19 motbob wrote:On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 26 2014 14:36 lichter wrote: Yes I understand the details of what he's trying to say and I disagree with the statement. I think it's a silly thing to say. That alone does not make it actionable, however. I looked at his posts, and for the most part, he tries his best to avoid saying anything too inflammatory or offensive. So in the context of his posts and the fact that he changed it after posting it, it appears like he wanted to avoid being offensive. That's why I ruled that it was exaggeration instead.
But like I said, if he keeps doing that then people should report it and we'll consider it along with past reports. Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Let's not dance around this issue: there are no black TL mods as far as I am aware. This being said we have a very diverse group of people on staff as it is. What is your definition of diverse? I am pretty sure TL staff members are the opposite of diverse. This is a pie chart of TL Staff nationality (not race, mind) based on known data. No actually countries, because, you know, secrets. OK, but I still don't think that a group of 95% male, 90% 18-30 year old, 90% white/east asian, 90% undergraduate educated (or pursuing that path), 90% First World people can be considered diverse regardless of the number of different nationalities. BTW if any of my percentages are wrong to your knowledge feel free to correct them.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
Oh, not saying TL is or isn't diverse, since nationality is only one thing. Just wanted to present some facts. Up to you to decide what it means.
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
is TL an equal opportunities employer, or an equal outcomes employer?
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Why the hell would anyone care about the color of a mod's skin? o.O
Yes, TL staff have been know to be irrationally biased about certain subjects, but it's hardly because of the color of their skin. If you start thinking somebody is superior just because they are black, maybe you are the one that is racist. Start seeing people, not just skin colors.
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On November 27 2014 20:25 zeo wrote: Why the hell would anyone care about the color of a mod's skin? o.O
Yes, TL staff have been know to be irrationally biased about certain subjects, but it's hardly because of the color of their skin. If you start thinking somebody is superior just because they are black, maybe you are the one that is racist. Start seeing people, not just skin colors.
It's not about 'the color of their skin'. It's about shared experiences. Since there aren't any other black people (afaik) to confirm this for you guys, let me try this:
I and 99% of American's (or people outside of western Europe) wouldn't find the following picture offensive in any way and certainly not worth headlines or a public apology.
But I bet some of the people here know why some would be offended by it. Not because it's 'blatently' racist/classist but because they share important experiences with people who it offended, that people outside of those groups could not understand except through analogy, if at all.
While the offending persons 'group' can see why people would be offended, the posting itself reflects that she and others felt comfortable making such a posting (or comments in private) and many supporters of hers thought it was fine. But because the people she offended had a large enough voice she was 'strongly encouraged' to apologize or step down.
Now imagine there was nothing but people not from the relevant groups making the decision on whether it is offensive or not. For instance, imagine if it was solely up to Americans to determine whether the picture was offensive or not. Does me not thinking it is offensive at all (because I only vaguely understand the context of the offended groups perspective) make it not overly offensive?
I don't think it does.
PS Slipping in the comment suggesting anyone at any point has implied in any way that anyone would be "superior just because they are black" or that "maybe (I'm) the racist" just further inflames the issue. For the record I never (intended to if I did?) accuse XDaunt of being racist, just his comment (there is a big difference).
EDIT: So this cost her her job, but no one even knew why it would offend anyone...? Yet, my point still seems to be falling on deaf ears?
Simon Danczuk, Labour MP for Rochdale, suggested it was “derogatory and dismissive of the people”. He told the Mail Online it was “like the Labour party has been hijacked by the north London liberal elite, and it’s comments like that which reinforce that view”.
On Twitter, the Ukip leader Nigel Farage said Thornberry had “let Miliband’s mask slip” and questioned what she was trying to imply about the area by tweeting the picture.
After the first barrage of complaints, Thornberry said her critics may have been showing “a somewhat prejudiced attitude towards Islington”. She added: “I’ve been down in Rochester … and I’ve been tweeting one or two quotes of what people have said to me on the doorstep, and images that I’ve seen … and then I came across a house that was covered absolutely from the roof all the way down to the ground with England flags – they couldn’t even see out of the window. It was an amazing image, so I took a photograph of it and I put it on Twitter.”
The Labour MP said she thought there was “a lot of mischief-making” going on. “You know, I think the truth is, while the byelection’s going on, people haven’t got a lot to say,” she said. “They can say there’s people out on doorsteps knocking on doors. And I suspect that those kind of people are trying to promote a somewhat prejudiced attitude towards Islington.
“I was brought up on a council estate and I’ve never seen a house where people can’t see out of the window because of England flags. It was just trying to give, to the people who follow me on Twitter, a kind of picture of what the Rochester byelection is like.”
She subsequently tweeted an apology, after receiving a dressing-down from Miliband, for “any offence caused” saying: “People should fly the England flag with pride!” A Labour source said: “It is fair to say that he made his view very clear that people should fly the England flag with pride.”
Just after the polls had closed in Rochester at 10pm, it emerged Thornberry had resigned. In a statement released by the party, Thornberry said: “Earlier today I sent a tweet which has caused offence to some people. That was never my intention and I have apologised. However, I will not let anything distract from Labour’s chance to win the coming general election. “I have therefore tonight told Ed Miliband I will resign from the shadow cabinet.”
Source
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If they had a valid point about why something was offensive; they should be able to provide links/explanations to show why such an image was offensive.
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The point I was trying to make is that you care more about race than the racists. You implied that TL should pick up some random black guy just to fulfill some multi-cultural quota. I highly doubt the administrators of this forum ask someone about their skin color when they evaluate whether to make them a mod.
Why should someone made a mod only because he/she is black? Or gay? Or whatever. We need people that actually know how to do their job, because nobody should really care about the country you are from, your religion/non-religion. Just the work that you put in.
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On November 28 2014 01:03 zeo wrote: The point I was trying to make is that you care more about race than the racists. You implied that TL should pick up some random black guy just to fulfill some multi-cultural quota. I highly doubt the administrators of this forum ask someone about their skin color when they evaluate whether to make them a mod.
Why should someone made a mod only because he/she is black? Or gay? Or whatever. We need people that actually know how to do their job, because nobody should really care about the country you are from, your religion/non-religion. Just the work that you put in.
You are just completely making stuff up now at this point. All I asked is if there are any Black (American) TL Mods so that I discuss shared experiences and perceptions and perhaps they could provide some insight.
This is bullshit.
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Ignore Zeo, for the love of God.
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On November 28 2014 07:56 farvacola wrote: Ignore Zeo, for the love of God.
I thought it sounded familiar. Wasn't he one of the people who was causing problems in a the Ukraine or some other Eurasian thread?
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On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote: Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Maybe I lost something in translation but your opinion was that a black mod would do a much better job than a white mod just because he/she is black? Mods are normal people like any normal user, talking to a black mod would give you as much incite into the matter as talking to any random black person. Any mod should give you the same answers about moderation, so the color of their skin kind of doesn't matter, they all have to follow the same rules.
I was under the assumption that you thought TL needed a black mod because we need a black guy, again, if something was misinterpreted on my side I apologize though what I wrote still stands to anyone thinking the color of someone's skin means anything.
Oh, looks like one of my stalkers followed me into this thread. Amazing one-liner, zero input post as always.
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On November 28 2014 08:17 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote: Well I'll hope we can find a Black mod from the US so I could discuss it further with them if they had the time if for nothing but a bit of peace of mind and a blend of perspectives (TLmod, Black, American). Maybe I lost something in translation but your opinion was that a black mod would do a much better job than a white mod just because he/she is black? I was under the assumption that you thought TL needed a black mod because we need a black guy, again, if something was misinterpreted on my side I apologize though what I wrote still stands to anyone thinking the color of someone's skin means anything. Oh, looks like one of my stalkers followed me into this thread. Amazing one-liner, zero input post as always.
Yes it was lost in translation. I thought they (through shared experiences and perspectives) could help me understand why what I thought was a pretty over the top statement was being treated like common discourse (although most agree it was at least intentionally provocative).
Groups don't "need a black guy, because they need a black guy". Groups benefit from multiple perspectives, different people have different experiences which predispose them to different interpretations of events. Different interpretations give rise to different arguments or suggestions that simply wouldn't come up without those parties being there. I wouldn't expect/want a black mod to be a mod for any other reason than everyone else if that's unclear still.
A conversation exclusively among men about what is an appropriate approach to maternity leave is inherently going to miss/gloss over/dismiss some key points from people who have exclusive experience with the subject (AKA Women). It doesn't mean anything women say about it is right, or they need a woman because they need a woman, just that they offer a perspective/set of experiences that CAN'T come from her male counterparts.
EDIT started here'ish: It's not because they hate women or because they don't care about them, simply because they can't possibly have had specific experiences that would shape one's perspective in relevant ways. It's also not to say they that with intelligent rational males they won't generally arrive at the 'right' conclusions, but that, nuance and specific experiences can shed light on things or put them into different contexts that can drastically change minds.
Imagine if blacks were not in the conversation for emancipation, for desegregation, for civil rights, etc... It's not that there weren't groups of whites (and others) who arrived at the same conclusions on freedom and equality or that they couldn't have without blacks, but without Fredrick Douglass, The Little Rock 9, MLK, black leaders/elected officials, etc... it sure would of taken a hell of a lot longer for the system to recognize there was even a significant problem. Not because everyone within was corrupt or racist, but because none of them had ever been whipped and chained, or spit on and pushed down stairs for going to school, or had their life threatened for expecting the treatment demanded by God and promised by the Constitution, etc...
Now I'm not trying to compare this, to those, in scale or significance, just make clear that conversations about discrimination, inflammatory rhetoric, unequal treatment, etc... benefit greatly from informed people from the class/group allegedly being mistreated.
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I understand what you are saying, its just that first and foremost General forum is kind of a secondary part of the site. Starcraft, DOTA and Hearthstone is why we have mods and why these sites exist. General is kind of a way for TL users to talk about world events with fellow SC, DOTA ect. players.
TL won't solve any problems in the world, its not really that big of a deal if all bases of a certain subject are covered, or all opinions/points of view are not allowed no matter how non-biased and rational they are because they don't fit into the accepted world-view of moderation staff.
In the end the mod staff are here to stop us from flaming each other and shitposting in General. Helping us solve the worlds problems is asking too much. Whether a thread is shit or not isn't really up to the mods, rather the users that post in that thread. When mods start manipulating discourse in a thread to better fit his/her agenda or biases it ruins that thread. Even if we had a black mod, they wouldn't want to get involved in a thread about black rights because could they really trust themselves to not manipulate discourse? Even if one person become's afraid to voice their relatively moderate opinion because they think a mod would become over-sensitive, doesn't that automatically devalue the discussion in that thread?
edit: Of course people who know what they are talking about, or have personal experience with xyz subject should be more than welcome in xyz thread. But those people should be regular users, not mods.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On November 28 2014 09:08 zeo wrote: I understand what you are saying, its just that first and foremost General forum is kind of a secondary part of the site. Starcraft, DOTA and Hearthstone is why we have mods and why these sites exist. General is kind of a way for TL users to talk about world events with fellow SC, DOTA ect. players.
TL won't solve any problems in the world, its not really that big of a deal if all bases of a certain subject are covered, or all opinions/points of view are not allowed no matter how non-biased and rational they are because they don't fit into the accepted world-view of moderation staff.
In the end the mod staff are here to stop us from flaming each other and shitposting in General. Helping us solve the worlds problems is asking too much. Whether a thread is shit or not isn't really up to the mods, rather the users that post in that thread. When mods start manipulating discourse in a thread to better fit his/her agenda or biases it ruins that thread. Even if we had a black mod, they wouldn't want to get involved in a thread about black rights because could they really trust themselves to not manipulate discourse? Even if one person become's afraid to voice their relatively moderate opinion because they think a mod would become over-sensitive, doesn't that automatically devalue the discussion in that thread? Certainly there have been impositions of mods' worldviews on TLers in the past. See: Kwark on rape, all mods on transgender issues. To become worried about discussion being "devalued" in those instances is to raise the good ol' "free speech" argument once again. In certain circumstances, censorship increases the value of the conversation. The question is where those circumstances lie. They may or may not lie in aggressive mod actions in the vein that GreenHorizons is asking for.
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On November 28 2014 09:19 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2014 09:08 zeo wrote: I understand what you are saying, its just that first and foremost General forum is kind of a secondary part of the site. Starcraft, DOTA and Hearthstone is why we have mods and why these sites exist. General is kind of a way for TL users to talk about world events with fellow SC, DOTA ect. players.
TL won't solve any problems in the world, its not really that big of a deal if all bases of a certain subject are covered, or all opinions/points of view are not allowed no matter how non-biased and rational they are because they don't fit into the accepted world-view of moderation staff.
In the end the mod staff are here to stop us from flaming each other and shitposting in General. Helping us solve the worlds problems is asking too much. Whether a thread is shit or not isn't really up to the mods, rather the users that post in that thread. When mods start manipulating discourse in a thread to better fit his/her agenda or biases it ruins that thread. Even if we had a black mod, they wouldn't want to get involved in a thread about black rights because could they really trust themselves to not manipulate discourse? Even if one person become's afraid to voice their relatively moderate opinion because they think a mod would become over-sensitive, doesn't that automatically devalue the discussion in that thread? Certainly there have been impositions of mods' worldviews on TLers in the past. See: Kwark on rape, all mods on transgender issues. To become worried about discussion being "devalued" in those instances is to raise the good ol' "free speech" argument once again. In certain circumstances, censorship increases the value of the conversation. The question is where those circumstances lie. They may or may not lie in aggressive mod actions in the vein that GreenHorizons is asking for.
I wasn't ever suggesting even a temp ban, just a warning maybe, if that.
I was once told by a mod that
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to reprimand or punish you here - that's not the point of Warnings. Instead just see it as an FYI I'm dropping (in) asking if you could just pull it back a bit.
I just thought such a warning might of been appropriate here. It's not like I want the guy tattooed on the forehead or something.
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Since that discussion has died down I want to go back to the original point. I also have the feeling that moderation has become more lenient over the last months/year. Dodgin said;
On November 24 2014 12:21 Dodgin wrote: Back on topic, I'm wondering if the change in moderation is possibly a product of a declining userbase? I've heard some theories about " nazi " modding scaring away users and since TL isn't as active as it once was, the standards were relaxed for that reason. but I have the exact opposite problem. I used to like the stricter moderation and the leniency has put me off posting. It seemed as though the balance complaints against Protoss earlier in the year were mostly ignored, compared to the end of WoL when merely saying "patchzerg" would earn a ban. The example that stuck in my mind was when Classic beat Maru in a Code S semi-final and the first post in the recap thread was "Protossed." but no action was taken.
It looks like a similar problem is starting with PvT and there have already been many balance complaints about it, and even a thread about it. The thread became a little heated but there no bans and only one warning (for claiming Protoss are "OP as fuck".) I don't want TL to become as bad now with Protoss complaints about balance as it was several months ago with Terran complaints.
And there are some people who seem immune to moderation. In the Dreamhack LR thread (for day 1) TB told someone to "fuck off" but didn't even get a warning. I understand he was upset and there were some posts in the LR thread that would make him angrier but why is telling someone to "fuck off" okay? I know he has contributed a massive amount to SC2 (and I am grateful for that) but does that mean he has the right to say whatever he wants?
Another example of someone seemingly immune to moderation is TheDwf. Several months ago he would often complain about how much Terran struggled and although he could make some valid points he would often do so in a very condescending and unnecessarily confrontational and antagonising way. In the now-closed thread about Terran MU stats he had a long post which included the line "Waah, what a "Terrancraft" indeed…" but since there was no warning for this (and it is not an isolated incident) I wonder if the mod team thinks it is okay for TheDwf to continue posting this way.
Was a decision made to moderate more leniently (overall)? Are there fewer active banlings around now? I know there are quite a few people with the power to ban but nobody appears to ban as often users like KBB or ETT or GMarshal or Nyovne (sp?) used to. Have I just got it wrong and moderation is the same as always?
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If there were any mods with self-reflection, they would have already renamed this thread to "Stockholm syndrome on TL"
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On December 03 2014 00:17 opisska wrote: If there were any mods with self-reflection, they would have already renamed this thread to "Stockholm syndrome on TL" As I do not have self-reflection, could you explain what you mean?
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On December 03 2014 01:01 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 00:17 opisska wrote: If there were any mods with self-reflection, they would have already renamed this thread to "Stockholm syndrome on TL" As I do not have self-reflection, could you explain what you mean?
That I consider a situation when people are complaining about being policed too little curious, to say the least. In many cases such as these of which you or someone else reminded above (heck, since we are in website feedback, does someone note how annoying it is that you can't see the rest of the thread once you get to the large reply window by quoting a post?), the only TL-sanctioned opinion has been literally forced upon everyone who wished to discuss the topic and remain not banned - yet we have people arguing for stricter moderation? I understand that we are not held here by force and our general liberties are not at stake, but the use of the term has to my understanding broadened at least in a mild hyperbole, to any situation where an oppressed group of people starts to support their oppressor (is that a word? chrome things it is, but it feels strange).
Also, just some mildly disgruntled attempt at sarcasm.
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I like xdaunt, but saying 'I doubt there are any sane blacks left' is probably worth a warning is a touch inflammatory
I certainly would love to know how the op's post was only a two day because goddamn.
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veteran leniency. you should be well acquainted eh /notamoderator
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Vet leniency for dumb pithy comments is one thing. That's my bread and butter yo.
Telling a mental unwell person to kill themselves is a tad different
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