Boris Nemtsov Killed - Page 11
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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snailz
Croatia900 Posts
On March 03 2015 21:01 -Archangel- wrote: Of course we can. EU/USA has more to gain by letting him be the leader of opposition, and there is no way anyone from islamic terrorist will go after him lol Only one with power left is Putin and has most to gain by both removing him from the picture and making other opposition members scared. Especially the part of making others scared. The right response to this would have been massive civil unrest, but that didn't happen. Now this means Putin can do whatever to the opposition and they now know it. You can now forget any change in Russia until Putin dies of old age or something. You got your own Gaddafi now.. congrats.. what makes you so certain that it is that simple? we are talking about a man who invaded and annexed a part of another sovereign european nation in 21st century, which to top it all of, was also a brother-nation to Russia and got in the whole mess by negotiating with an alliance that is supposed to ensure exactly what happened, doesnt happen. and he got away with it. in the process he rigged the "independence" vote by 90+ percent and he also regularly does the same in his own country. i literally cant see why a such man would even twitch about his local opposition. if anything, this hurts him, because it turned an inconvenience into a problem. also, what was so wrong with gaddafi? if russians are doomed to have dictators as leaders, gaddafi version of one is the best thing that can happen to them, honestly. but either way, you shouldn't be so comfortable when criticizing other nations governments when they are different than your own. its not like western world is some kind of utopia. id give up capitalism for scandinavian model in a heart beat. and on that note, i giggle every time someone says russia is returning to communism... wasnt it discussed in depth how current state of public thinking in russia is being shaped like 1930s germany? having a totalitarian ruler does not constitute comparisons to communism, in my opinion | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5474 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + too much in fact | ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 03 2015 22:46 snailz wrote: what makes you so certain that it is that simple? we are talking about a man who invaded and annexed a part of another sovereign european nation in 21st century, which to top it all of, was also a brother-nation to Russia and got in the whole mess by negotiating with an alliance that is supposed to ensure exactly what happened, doesnt happen. and he got away with it. in the process he rigged the "independence" vote by 90+ percent and he also regularly does the same in his own country. i literally cant see why a such man would even twitch about his local opposition. if anything, this hurts him, because it turned an inconvenience into a problem. Because it is. This is how he shows power. He was KGB afterall. No better way to finally shut your opposition up then to kill off their "leader" and show he can do that whenever he can without anyone being able to doing anything about it. The rest, I will not comment. It is not about my point. | ||
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:02 -Archangel- wrote: Because it is. This is how he shows power. He was KGB afterall. No better way to finally shut your opposition up then to kill off their "leader" and show he can do that whenever he can without anyone being able to doing anything about it. The rest, I will not comment. It is not about my point. I don't want to sound rude, but it's completely unclear who did that even from within the country, so making such uncompromising claims from the outside seems plain foolish. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:02 -Archangel- wrote: Because it is. This is how he shows power. He was KGB afterall. No better way to finally shut your opposition up then to kill off their "leader" and show he can do that whenever he can without anyone being able to doing anything about it. The rest, I will not comment. It is not about my point. I think there is a misconception here as to how important he was. Don't let the outcry over his death (or the media headlines declaring him a "key" leader) fool you; he was a minor opposition figure of little significance. He is important enough for most people to know who he was, but by no means was he a key figure. Also, it really wouldn't make sense to kill someone so blatantly anyhow; if he really were important enough, it would be much simpler to put him in prison for crimes that he did actually commit. Also, due process. Guilt is decided with evidence, not in the court of public opinion. On March 03 2015 08:27 BluzMan wrote: Everything is just sad, the society here is slowly collapsing upon itself and there isn't really a positive construct for a future. You just can't imagine a future for a 21'st century European country if you're an ex-KGB colonel, spent your whole life at a desk and openly admit you don't like/use the internet. You have to realize that Putin lives in a completely different world that just doesn't even have all those cool things you like and that constitute the modern Europe. You have Wikipedia and Coursera - he has old soviet history books. You seriously think about the availability of cybernetic augmentation in the following years, robotic space exploration, elimination of cancer and other amazing things that are just around the corner - he seriously thinks about "unfair" things that happened 50-100 years ago when no one at these forums was even alive. What kind of a future can that man envision? You can't imagine a complex system built of things you have no idea of. There is certainly some truth to what you say, although the idea to looking to Europe (or the US for that matter) as a beacon of progress turned out to be less real than many would believe it to be (for what it's worth, maybe 5 years ago I would have more or less agreed with your overall message, but not now). The problems with the Western countries are just as deep-seated as those of Russia, and the quality of life is better because they did not have one of the worst economic collapses in history just 15 years ago. | ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:21 BluzMan wrote: I don't want to sound rude, but it's completely unclear who did that even from within the country, so making such uncompromising claims from the outside seems plain foolish. It is only unclear if you don't want to hear it. It is plain and simple to me. Of course I got no proof and probably never will but my voice means nothing outside this topic anyways. On March 04 2015 00:23 LegalLord wrote: I think there is a misconception here as to how important he was. Don't let the outcry over his death (or the media headlines declaring him a "key" leader) fool you; he was a minor opposition figure of little significance. He is important enough for most people to know who he was, but by no means was he a key figure. Also, it really wouldn't make sense to kill someone so blatantly anyhow; if he really were important enough, it would be much simpler to put him in prison for crimes that he did actually commit. Also, due process. Guilt is decided with evidence, not in the court of public opinion. He was important enough that this will scare some people away. And it is a bigger message to kill someone just like that than to set up some fake trial. It tells others I am not afraid of anyone anymore so don't try anything. It is next step in dictatorship. You make your enemies fear you and then you make your allies (courts) fear you. Then you can do whatever you want like Josif Staljin. Due process? In a corrupt country? Don't make me laugh. (I know, I live in corrupt country as well where criminals hide behind laws and due process..) | ||
Narw
Poland884 Posts
if he really were important enough, it would be much simpler to put him in prison for crimes that he did actually commit. You almost got it right, it would be much simpler to put him in prison for crimes he would be accused of. Let's not be funny and pretend you actually need to be guilty in Russia to go to prison for political reasons. The second part of your post is cringe worthy. You have problems with economy only thanks to yourself, for devoting to criminal political system that not only fucked your country, but also half of central Europe. And no, problems in the West are nowhere near the situation in Russia, tell the fairy tale somewhere else. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:41 -Archangel- wrote: It is only unclear if you don't want to hear it. It is plain and simple to me. Of course I got no proof and probably never will but my voice means nothing outside this topic anyways. There are so many things you can assert if you have no proof and never will. That's a slippery slope. On March 04 2015 00:41 -Archangel- wrote: Due process? In a corrupt country? Don't make me laugh. (I know, I live in corrupt country as well where criminals hide behind laws and due process..) I live in the US - there are plenty of criminals, white collar and otherwise, who hide behind the system of due process here as well. It's not limited to "corrupt" countries; it's just that it's better than the alternatives. | ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:51 LegalLord wrote: I live in the US - there are plenty of criminals, white collar and otherwise, who hide behind the system of due process here as well. It's not limited to "corrupt" countries; it's just that it's better than the alternatives. Ah lol you go no idea. In this country we like to say that instead of country having a Mafia , we have a Mafia that has a country. The "boss" was removed few years ago but his system and most of his people are still around and have enough power that not really much has changed. It is just less in the open now. And everyone still hides behind laws and due process. When is the time to say enough to people legally stealing?! | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 04 2015 01:20 -Archangel- wrote: Ah lol you go no idea. In this country we like to say that instead of country having a Mafia , we have a Mafia that has a country. The "boss" was removed few years ago but his system and most of his people are still around and have enough power that not really much has changed. It is just less in the open now. And everyone still hides behind laws and due process. When is the time to say enough to people legally stealing?! If they didn't have that to hide behind, they would hide behind something else. Do you think that if courts were to put people in prison without evidence, that that would somehow stop corruption? Everyone knows that due process is heavily abused, corrupt country or not. That ideal is not the problem. | ||
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:23 LegalLord wrote: I think there is a misconception here as to how important he was. Don't let the outcry over his death (or the media headlines declaring him a "key" leader) fool you; he was a minor opposition figure of little significance. He is important enough for most people to know who he was, but by no means was he a key figure. Also, it really wouldn't make sense to kill someone so blatantly anyhow; if he really were important enough, it would be much simpler to put him in prison for crimes that he did actually commit. What is minor is the oppositional scene overall, so it kinda makes everyone in it relatively minor too, but as far as the scene itself is concerned he was a very significant figure on it. | ||
Mikau
Netherlands1445 Posts
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:23 LegalLord wrote: I think there is a misconception here as to how important he was. Don't let the outcry over his death (or the media headlines declaring him a "key" leader) fool you; he was a minor opposition figure of little significance. He is important enough for most people to know who he was, but by no means was he a key figure. Also, it really wouldn't make sense to kill someone so blatantly anyhow; if he really were important enough, it would be much simpler to put him in prison for crimes that he did actually commit. Also, due process. Guilt is decided with evidence, not in the court of public opinion. There is certainly some truth to what you say, although the idea to looking to Europe (or the US for that matter) as a beacon of progress turned out to be less real than many would believe it to be (for what it's worth, maybe 5 years ago I would have more or less agreed with your overall message, but not now). The problems with the Western countries are just as deep-seated as those of Russia, and the quality of life is better because they did not have one of the worst economic collapses in history just 15 years ago. No offense, but it only confirms what everyone is saying that you need to emphasize his un-importance. He was an opponent, one of the "14%". Your democracy is currently broken. Don't say it's all relative and subjective. "They're all broken." It just isn't like that. We have a lot of vitriol in the States, and political candidates do get death threats. But it doesn't matter what their polls are, or what their projected "importance" is, any one of them gets shot in the street, and we all know straight-away that there is a problem. We wouldn't downplay it, we wouldn't excuse it, we wouldn't entertain theories of outside involvement without REAL proof. We would acknowledge it for what it is: an assault on our entire democracy. Putin is so "loved", so aren't all his political opponents "un-important"? That's exactly what makes them EXTREMELY important and their assassination a complete damnation of your system. You got a President for 15 years, he becomes the richest man in your country, he has no real political opponents, enjoys 80%+ approval ratings, and when one of his opponents does get killed in public, the public is content to let the President privately investigate it while they theorize that it was anyone and everyone responsible but the President? Do I have any of that wrong? Anyone who wants democracy in Russia should be angry, scared, or be doing anything except making excuses for the state of things. I don't care if you think Putin is the second-coming of Christ, if you want your country to be able to democratically-elect his successor in any sort of fair process, you need to be less worried about what the "west" thinks (or what I think), and more concerned with the sorry-state of affairs that your country is actually in. It's so easy to be relative, because of course none of us are infallible. But, facts are: the "West" doesn't annex countries anymore (that's very 17th century), the "West" doesn't let its leaders privately investigate the assassinations of their political opponents. Some things aren't subjective, some shades of gray are a whole lot darker than others. What's going on in Russia right now is disturbing. | ||
Maenander
Germany4919 Posts
On March 04 2015 00:23 LegalLord wrote: I think there is a misconception here as to how important he was. Don't let the outcry over his death (or the media headlines declaring him a "key" leader) fool you; he was a minor opposition figure of little significance. He is important enough for most people to know who he was, but by no means was he a key figure. Also, it really wouldn't make sense to kill someone so blatantly anyhow; if he really were important enough, it would be much simpler to put him in prison for crimes that he did actually commit. Also, due process. Guilt is decided with evidence, not in the court of public opinion. There is certainly some truth to what you say, although the idea to looking to Europe (or the US for that matter) as a beacon of progress turned out to be less real than many would believe it to be (for what it's worth, maybe 5 years ago I would have more or less agreed with your overall message, but not now). The problems with the Western countries are just as deep-seated as those of Russia, and the quality of life is better because they did not have one of the worst economic collapses in history just 15 years ago. Russia has and had resources, technical expertise and not to mention more space than any nation needs. There is no reason to complain about history, when there is hardly any nation having a better starting point for the future. And there is no reason to be happy about the current state of Russia, when there is so much potential left untapped. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 04 2015 02:12 Leporello wrote: No offense, but it only confirms what everyone is saying that you need to emphasize his un-importance. He was an opponent, one of the "14%". Your democracy is currently broken. Don't say it's all relative and subjective. "They're all broken." It just isn't like that. We have a lot of vitriol in the States, and political candidates do get death threats. But it doesn't matter what their polls are, or what their projected "importance" is, any one of them gets shot in the street, and we all know straight-away that there is a problem. We wouldn't downplay it, we wouldn't excuse it, we wouldn't entertain theories of outside involvement without REAL proof. We would acknowledge it for what it is: an assault on our entire democracy. Putin is so "loved", so aren't all his political opponents "un-important"? That's exactly what makes them EXTREMELY important and their assassination a complete damnation of your system. Perhaps you misunderstood my point. He is unimportant in the sense that he is not an opposition leader whose influence is significant enough for anyone to consider getting rid of. A shooting is a momentous event in Russia as well if the large Nemtsov memorial march attendance didn't tip you off. I suppose the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords is a decent US example. She was a relatively minor figure (a member of Congress, i.e. a minor national legislative figure), and of the opposing party in her state. There was a (justified) national response to that event, but in terms of political influence, nothing really changed one way or the other after she was forced to step down after the shooting. That's about the significance of Nemtsov - people know who he is, but he doesn't play a major role in his party, and the nation mourns his death. I would like to remind you that accusing ANYONE of a shooting with nothing more than speculation is a very serious accusation. If you didn't notice, my position has essentially been to "wait for proof," the boring but reasonable approach to matters like this. | ||
calmasfok
91 Posts
On February 28 2015 20:39 Random() wrote: You're right of course, it's just that I don't appreciate respectable media such as the BBC lowering themselves to tabloid-style headlines. Al Jazeera, Russian and Chinese newspapers mostly went with "Russian opposition politician shot dead". CNN and BBC: "Putin critic slain", "Putin critic shot dead", an obvious difference in tone and implications. i think youre trying a little too hard m8. black person shot is racist no? why implicate his race in the title no? olitical correctness dont make yo dick bigger no? fuck u on about m8 no? pls dont ban me mods no? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On March 04 2015 02:42 Maenander wrote: Russia has and had resources, technical expertise and not to mention more space than any nation needs. There is no reason to complain about history, when there is hardly any nation having a better starting point for the future. And there is no reason to be happy about the current state of Russia, when there is so much potential left untapped. No argument here, which is why I don't understand the reason for this post. Nothing I said contradicts your point. On March 04 2015 02:12 Leporello wrote: You got a President for 15 years, he becomes the richest man in your country, he has no real political opponents, enjoys 80%+ approval ratings, and when one of his opponents does get killed in public, the public is content to let the President privately investigate it while they theorize that it was anyone and everyone responsible but the President? Do I have any of that wrong? Anyone who wants democracy in Russia should be angry, scared, or be doing anything except making excuses for the state of things. I don't care if you think Putin is the second-coming of Christ, if you want your country to be able to democratically-elect his successor in any sort of fair process, you need to be less worried about what the "west" thinks (or what I think), and more concerned with the sorry-state of affairs that your country is actually in. Oh wow, are you seriously conflating approval ratings with the size of the opposition? Perhaps that's where your "14% opposition" comes from. They're not the same. Putin's party has about 55% control of the Russian government, which puts the opposition in the 40%'s. At this point the opposition is quite divided and offer very little in the way of a viable alternative for the future, a problem which many would argue also exists as of now in the US. Putin's approval is in the 80%'s right now. That is, most people are happy with the job he has done in the recent past (which most people would confirm is the truth). It has been as low as 20%, and it is usually hovering around 50%. On March 04 2015 02:12 Leporello wrote:It's so easy to be relative, because of course none of us are infallible. But, facts are: the "West" doesn't annex countries anymore (that's very 17th century), the "West" doesn't let its leaders privately investigate the assassinations of their political opponents. Some things aren't subjective, some shades of gray are a whole lot darker than others. What's going on in Russia right now is disturbing. No foreign policy adventurism in the US? Really? And you're right, let's investigate the killer in the court of public opinion instead of allowing the authorities to do that. That makes much more sense. | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
He does address several of the issues being discussed in the thread. While I don't think you shouldn't take a pinch of salt to everything he says, his role as Putin's `real' opposition makes the words a must read to understand the current situation. Excerpt: Today, Boris Nemtsov is being buried. I couldn’t pay him my respects as the Moscow courts informed me that there was nothing so extraordinary that had happened that would allow for the suspension of the serving of an administrative jail sentence. Well, that means I’ll visit him at the Troyekurovsky Cemeterery — now he will have enough time for everybody. I’ve thought about all this for several days and now I want to share my thoughts. Without emotions, as far as this is possible. 1. I believe that Nemtsov was killed by members of a government (intelligence) or pro-government organization on orders from the political leadership of the country (including Vladimir Putin). It is a question only of how this order was formulated: - You must kill Nemtsov. - You must do a hugely sensational action. ... 5. Along with this, we find the reasoning, “Nemtsov was not popular and not influential, what was the point of murdering him?” Well, go through in your mind the current system and non-system opposition members and try to make up a list of those who are more influential than Nemtsov. Who are actually more influential and create problems for the government not solvable by a phone call from the Kremlin to the “opposition member” and his boss. You won’t even find five names. I maintain, not as kind words for the deceased, but as a sober appraisal: Boris was one of the most problematic politicians for the Kremlin. - He was one of a few who exposed the corruption of Putin and his close circle, citing concrete names. Are there a lot of people who do that? In our country, it is allowed only to speak of corruption “as a phenomenon.” - He substantively understood topics that were sensitive for the Kremlin. Gazprom, the energy complex as a whole and so on. His reports (both co-authored and independently) were some of the most powerful promotional tools of recent years, they infuriated the leadership, I know for sure. - He was a consistent liberal, open for dialogue with all political forces. He spoke normally with both nationalists and leftists. - (Very important) He was prepared to run for election and was not afraid of losing. And he didn’t stand on the positions of “I’m touch and I will only run for president (or the State Duma). - His campaigns in Sochi and Yaroslavl were rather humorous, he could be fought with only through falsification. Do you know of an opposition faction in a regional legislature, which shook things up and forced everyone to take them into account and removed a vice governor from his post? I do. This is the faction of Boris Nemtsov in the Yaroslavl Region legislature. - He was able to work with the media and knew how to master new information technology (show me an “influencer” with a large number of followers on Facebook). His video clips which he put together with Leonid Martynyuk have millions of views, by the way. On the whole, I could go on listing things for a long time. Nemtsov did something, and didn’t wait for the moment of the “collapse of the regime,” unlike many others — that was his influence and his danger. Read the rest here. | ||
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