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On May 04 2015 19:22 _indigo_ wrote: I wonder how much mining is lost when reaper drops the grenade in the mineral line and workers bounce out for a couple of seconds. If anyone has done some testing, I would appreciate it if they can share the results, because i'm not very patient with those kind of tests (as well as amount of time on my hand).
Seems to me if this isn't efficient mining disruption, than i'd rather just spend the gas on tech than on reapers since rax is delayed comparing to HotS (15 supply rax).
I believe the grenade is for reapers to rescue themselves from surround and high ground zerglings.
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On May 04 2015 19:43 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 19:22 _indigo_ wrote: I wonder how much mining is lost when reaper drops the grenade in the mineral line and workers bounce out for a couple of seconds. If anyone has done some testing, I would appreciate it if they can share the results, because i'm not very patient with those kind of tests (as well as amount of time on my hand).
Seems to me if this isn't efficient mining disruption, than i'd rather just spend the gas on tech than on reapers since rax is delayed comparing to HotS (15 supply rax). I believe the grenade is for reapers to rescue themselves from surround and high ground zerglings.
The intended purpose of something isn't the only purpose it should have, currently it disrupts mining and stops some drones (if they've collided with an object where they'd land) going back to mining.
I would say as a rough guess that a bomb on average would do 25 minerals damage of delay. What I don't understand is why you're saying you'd rather spend the gas on tech since that means you're either SCV scouting or not scouting 1 reaper doesn't delay tech drastically.
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What's the best way to deal with ravager pushes as protoss?
Feels like you can't just hold a wall anymore because decent ravager counts will almost guarantee the natural wall gets broken to some degree, and in order not to take much damage you seem to need a fairly hefty gateway force, investment into which takes away time and resources for tech to deal with a later hydra/muta/other zerg tech pushes if the ravager push doesn't come.
Which I guess brings the related question: How do you scout for whether a potential ravager push is coming as protoss?
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On May 04 2015 20:04 moofang wrote: What's the best way to deal with ravager pushes as protoss?
Feels like you can't just hold a wall anymore because decent ravager counts will almost guarantee the natural wall gets broken to some degree, and in order not to take much damage you seem to need a fairly hefty gateway force, investment into which takes away time and resources for tech to deal with a later hydra/muta/other zerg tech pushes if the ravager push doesn't come.
Which I guess brings the related question: How do you scout for whether a potential ravager push is coming as protoss?
It's hard to tell if I'm doing it right or if the people I'm playing are just worse than me at the moment (might be the case) but this is what I've been doing in PvZ.
Nexus first (just nonstop probes until you get your nexus, it's pretty fast) then gateway, double gas, cyber, and Robo at your natural wall (with forge and another gateway). I usually get 2 sentries (helpful against early lings) and if they don't attack me early I use hallucinate to check for Ravager rushes. Telltale signs are 2 bases, lots of roaches.
I open disruptor drops in this matchup. With a well-timed Photon Overcharge, Time Warp, forcefields (they're still usable, just not AS good) you can get decent shots off with your Disruptors and significantly weaken his attack. It's also useful to try and chrono out an Immortal or two for more reliable damage output.
TLDR; Basically you want to get a fast robo and non stop chrono units out of it. A few sentries still helps and some Stalkers are good. MAKE SURE you don't lose your MsC to the Ravager ability... keep it safe near your Nexus.
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On May 04 2015 16:43 StalkerFang wrote: What mid-game composition are people going for in PvP now? Collossi seem like they might still be good in high numbers, but it's hard to get that critical mass with how fast paced LotV is. I've had some luck with disruptors but they screw over your own zealots and blink stalkers have a pretty easy time avoiding them. Are HTs actually worth getting now, particularly since they're good against air based armies?
PS thanks for this thread, I was actually just thinking this morning about how great it would be to have a dedicated LotV strategy thread.
Thanks
Chargelot Archon Immortal Disrutptor seems to be the cool thing. Disruptors are just so good against the death ball that people are used to building in PvP. So you can do a ton of damage with a couple of them.
IMO Colos are pretty trash now, but maybe still decent in PvP? I'd just rather have Chargelot ARchon...
None of my PvPs get very far though, everyone wants to cheese me
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In PvZ how do you deal with the mass-lings into mass queens + fast ultralisks style ?
With the early lings, Zerg can deny your third base for a long time and keep you on the defensive. Meanwhile he can secure a fourth and tech into ultras. If you don't kill Zerg before ultras are out, there are 20 queens and a dozen ultras ( plus a couple lings ) knocking on your door.. and I have no army composition answer to that. An air transition is out of question ( would take too much time and in small quantities, queens wreck everything ); so what ground army composition would counter mass queens + ultras ? Every unit other than immortals won't have the dps with the 8 armored ultralisk to even hurt them, and even with immortals, there are so many transfuses..
Only thing I can think of is an all-in before Zerg gets his ultralisks, but I'd like to know if there's a ground army composition that would do well against that style. Many disruptors would get the queens but won't damage ultras, and they cost so much gas that the rest of your army will probably be zealots.. I tried templars to feedback the queens but even with 10 templars I didn't have enough energy to avoid a mass of transfuses..
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On May 04 2015 20:46 Nyast wrote: In PvZ how do you deal with the mass-lings into mass queens + fast ultralisks style ?
With the early lings, Zerg can deny your third base for a long time and keep you on the defensive. Meanwhile he can secure a fourth and tech into ultras. If you don't kill Zerg before ultras are out, there are 20 queens and a dozen ultras ( plus a couple lings ) knocking on your door.. and I have no army composition answer to that. An air transition is out of question ( would take too much time and in small quantities, queens wreck everything ); so what ground army composition would counter mass queens + ultras ? Every unit other than immortals won't have the dps with the 8 armored ultralisk to even hurt them, and even with immortals, there are so many transfuses..
Only thing I can think of is an all-in before Zerg gets his ultralisks, but I'd like to know if there's a ground army composition that would do well against that style. Many disruptors would get the queens but won't damage ultras, and they cost so much gas that the rest of your army will probably be zealots.. I tried templars to feedback the queens but even with 10 templars I didn't have enough energy to avoid a mass of transfuses..
Ultras are broken as hell right now, AND Protoss is generally the weakest race. I faced a guy who had 10 Ultras out and there's basically no way to kill them. None of your units actually do any damage. Even Carriers are doing what... ~10 damage a volley? Void Rays basically tickle them.
Seems to be a "kill them before they get there" comp.
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new zerg base timings for the lotv economic model? when i saturate hots style i end up with my main mining out and nowhere to put excess workers. should i be taking a 4th quicker or do people just stay on fewer drones and transfer half or so from the main to the third? is there any solid theory on this yet or is it stylistic?
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How do you open with mech vs protoss?
I have no idea what to do besides WM drops because I always seem to put too many resources into harass and end up killing nothing.
And before someone answers cyclones, how? I seem to be the only terran that dies when getting cyclones.
Also
How do you defend fast adept harras?
Linked to the question above adepts kill marines and hellions too fast, so what am I supposed to open with? cyclone rush? Is there any good BO for opening with mech in TvP?
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On May 04 2015 18:56 Ovid wrote: 12 OL is not efficient, that's not a good start. After no one responded to my post in this thread I tested out the majority of the openers and it turns out that for hatch first builds 13 overlord 18 hatch is the best start.
The next bit is the hardest to work out because it depends on your goal, if you're looking for pure macro/whilst maintaining safety (IE not 3 hatch) then after 18 Hatch you want to go 19 Gas 19 Pool 21 Overlord Double Queen Speed and one set of lings. This is the most economic build and perfectly lines up the spawning pool timing to the hatch timing and gains you a whopping 95 minerals and 2 fast drones built over your initial build (adjusted to 13 overlord rather than 12) the only difference is your first queen is 9 seconds earlier and speed is 13 seconds earlier. So the next question is what if you want to put on some speedling aggression from an economic opener hatch first(ish). Then the best build is where you take the extractor 3 seconds or so before you place down the hatchery then 16 pool (since it would be 17 hatch) then it's drones and overlord at 19 then one more drone then queen speed 1 set of lings and the next queen. You get speed at 2:41 compared to the most economic builds 3:02 at the sacrifice of one later queen and hatch (2 seconds) 1 less drone and a loss of around 110 minerals.
Cool, thanks a lot for this.
On another note, this might not be a LotV question (haven't played for a LONG time, even in HotS), but did they fix the "overlord parking" on high ground fixtures? Seems like my OLs are getting shot even when they're "supposed" to be hidden.
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On May 04 2015 21:22 Lexender wrote: How do you open with mech vs protoss?
I have no idea what to do besides WM drops because I always seem to put too many resources into harass and end up killing nothing.
And before someone answers cyclones, how? I seem to be the only terran that dies when getting cyclones.
Also
How do you defend fast adept harras?
Linked to the question above adepts kill marines and hellions too fast, so what am I supposed to open with? cyclone rush? Is there any good BO for opening with mech in TvP?
The game is quite different from HotS in that as the meching Terran player, you're totally okay just sitting at home and macroing. I feel like LotV puts way more pressure on the Protoss to harass the Terran than vice versa.
I've had people open reactor hellion against me. The ramps are pretty big on some of the maps so that can be good if they don't wall or make a couple of sentries. You can also drop them in the main, and since you don't need an engineering bay to make turrets anymore you'll be safe against Oracles (what usually fucked this kind of opening in HotS).
Banshees are aso viable in a meta where Disruptor drops are all the rage. Gets you a quick Starport to shut down the Warp prism and is really efficient against a guy who skipped observers or only made one.
I actually find that Cyclones are not very good to open with because they can be microed well against early. It's later in the game when you have a bunch of them kiting my whole army that I'm scared.
Vs. fast adept harass... just wall your main with depot rax depot. Bunker at the front of your natural. There will be nowhere for the adepts to go until a Warp Prism is out. In that case just rush a Viking to zone the WP and you'll be ok.
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On May 04 2015 20:59 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 20:46 Nyast wrote: In PvZ how do you deal with the mass-lings into mass queens + fast ultralisks style ?
With the early lings, Zerg can deny your third base for a long time and keep you on the defensive. Meanwhile he can secure a fourth and tech into ultras. If you don't kill Zerg before ultras are out, there are 20 queens and a dozen ultras ( plus a couple lings ) knocking on your door.. and I have no army composition answer to that. An air transition is out of question ( would take too much time and in small quantities, queens wreck everything ); so what ground army composition would counter mass queens + ultras ? Every unit other than immortals won't have the dps with the 8 armored ultralisk to even hurt them, and even with immortals, there are so many transfuses..
Only thing I can think of is an all-in before Zerg gets his ultralisks, but I'd like to know if there's a ground army composition that would do well against that style. Many disruptors would get the queens but won't damage ultras, and they cost so much gas that the rest of your army will probably be zealots.. I tried templars to feedback the queens but even with 10 templars I didn't have enough energy to avoid a mass of transfuses.. Ultras are broken as hell right now, AND Protoss is generally the weakest race. I faced a guy who had 10 Ultras out and there's basically no way to kill them. None of your units actually do any damage. Even Carriers are doing what... ~10 damage a volley? Void Rays basically tickle them. Seems to be a "kill them before they get there" comp.
Snipe the ovie and make dts and buildings. Gimmicky and very unreliable but at least has more dps.
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@Zerg hatch first opening comparison:
13OL/18hatchery/18spawning pool 13/14 overlord 18/22 hatchery 18/22 Spawning Pool @100% Pool, hatchery: 2queens drones and overlords --> @3:00 this build has 29drones+3drones in production (first inject only 60% done), 850minerals in the bank
16hatch/15OL/15Pool 14/14, @125minerals start 2extractors, build 2drones, cancel extractors 16/14, @0:42 hatchery 15/14 Overlord 15/14, @1:00 Spawning Pool don't make a third overlord, the hatchery finishing at 1:55 will provide you with enough supply! @100%pool: queen @main @100%hatchery: queen @natural 24/28 overlord --> @3:00 this build has 30drones+10drones in production (first inject finished just before); 450minerals in the bank
Some of these timings might be slightly off, but that's what I draw from it: The 16hatch/15OL/15Pool + has the same amount of minerals mined as the 13OL/18hatchery/18spawning pool + has the queens faster, which is good for faster injects, more queens and early game defense (e.g. reaper, proxies) + has the natural faster, which is good for faster creep spread to the ramp and early vision/defense against proxies/canons - has the second overlord later
If I build a gas with this, then I either do it as a 16hatch/15OL/15Gas/15Pool or as a 16hatch/15OL/15Pool/15Gas at the moment.
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On May 04 2015 20:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2015 16:43 StalkerFang wrote: What mid-game composition are people going for in PvP now? Collossi seem like they might still be good in high numbers, but it's hard to get that critical mass with how fast paced LotV is. I've had some luck with disruptors but they screw over your own zealots and blink stalkers have a pretty easy time avoiding them. Are HTs actually worth getting now, particularly since they're good against air based armies?
PS thanks for this thread, I was actually just thinking this morning about how great it would be to have a dedicated LotV strategy thread. Thanks Chargelot Archon Immortal Disrutptor seems to be the cool thing. Disruptors are just so good against the death ball that people are used to building in PvP. So you can do a ton of damage with a couple of them. IMO Colos are pretty trash now, but maybe still decent in PvP? I'd just rather have Chargelot ARchon... None of my PvPs get very far though, everyone wants to cheese me
Yeah this is what I'm thinking. There probably isn't any pure ground-based army which can compete with carriers though so any composition probably has to be able to just end the game once they start teching to that.
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ok, not really a question and answer, but I figured it might be useful for a few people.
Tempests have a long range... sometimes its nice to gain a little vision. You can use the adept abillty to run up a cliff or ramp to gain vision for your tempests for a few seconds. Of course you lose the adept if there army is there, but can still be a useful way to use the ability.
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On May 05 2015 16:09 Allred wrote: ok, not really a question and answer, but I figured it might be useful for a few people.
Tempests have a long range... sometimes its nice to gain a little vision. You can use the adept abillty to run up a cliff or ramp to gain vision for your tempests for a few seconds. Of course you lose the adept if there army is there, but can still be a useful way to use the ability.
With the new patch you can get vision with the ability and cancel before it activates.
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On May 03 2015 03:03 Ovid wrote: In ZvZ what is the best method of breaking a passive lurker player?
I'm thinking it's got to be Ultra ling corrupter/muta viper. I've really struggled breaking a defensive Lurker player who sits back behind spores/spines with Roach Hydra Lurker Corrupter. Is there anyway to force the matter or do I just have to harass and sit back until I can take loads of inefficient trades?
What are the optimal openers for Zerg?
I've been going 13 Overlord 18 Hatch 17 Gas 16 Pool is there a more efficient opener for fast speed/lair?
I've been trying a +1 armor Mutalisk style against Protoss and it's been giving me very high winrates, does any other zerg have a good build for any of the matchups?
I'lll take a stab at your questions. In ZvZ what is the best method of breaking a passive lurker player?
As far as the first question. Lurkers in general are slow units. They can be sniped by mutas if they are away from spores. If you didn't commit to mutas, I think its better to expand faster. Lurkers are not particularly great units and take advantage of the gas with ultras. I think that will be the most common style against the defenisve lurker play.
What are the optimal openers for Zerg?
I've been going 13 Overlord 18 Hatch 17 Gas 16 Pool is there a more efficient opener for fast speed/lair?
So as far as the optimal openers for zerg, I've spent quite a bit of time trying a bunch of different ways to do it. I've basically found, if you overloard on 13 vs 14. you get one more trip with a drone with 14. If you overloard on 15 with an extractor trick you get 1 less mineral than 14. If you hatch on 17 you start the queen 10 seconds faster than on 18. if you gas on 17 pool on 16 or pool on 18 and gas on 17 the first queen comes out 10 seconds later as well, but you lose 2 trips from a drone.
I think its best to go 14 overloard no extractor trick. I also think its better to go 17 hatch than 18 hatch. The gas 17 pool 16 i think is ok, but the build i think is hard countered by the current roach ling meta. If you are ok with the game going longer, think its better to get the pool faster like on 17 before the gas. The ling ravager build is a pool on 18 gas on 18 and a standard ling build is pool on 18 gas on 19 seem most optimal. I spent about 2 hours testing builds this morning.
I've been trying a +1 armor Mutalisk style against Protoss and it's been giving me very high winrates, does any other zerg have a good build for any of the matchups?[/QUOTE]
As far as the mutalisks. Most protoss are going into the fast robo fast disruptor style. the robo is a bit later than it was in hots relative to the lair timings by about 25 seconds. robo build are not as all in strong now and have become more of a harass style. Mutas are a lot easier to harass than the robo styles in my opinion.
I do also a lurker rush vs protoss and terran. I also do the defensive lurker style you hate. I do a 10 ravager hydra timing vs protoss. I also do a ravager ling timing vs zerg. I don't know what your style is so i hate to waste time giving details on things that you might not like.
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Brood lords are pretty good vs lurkers, but vipers pretty much shut that down.
Blinding Cloud and Abduct are good tools for breaking a lurker stalemate. I'm confident a good player would be able to beat roach hydra lurker with pure roach hydra viper by just creating holes /w blinding cloud and abduct and abusing mobility.
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On May 05 2015 22:06 iKill wrote: Brood lords are pretty good vs lurkers, but vipers pretty much shut that down.
Blinding Cloud and Abduct are good tools for breaking a lurker stalemate. I'm confident a good player would be able to beat roach hydra lurker with pure roach hydra viper by just creating holes /w blinding cloud and abduct and abusing mobility. I don't think roach/hydra is the way to go at the moment. Mutas are still rocking hard in the midgame and now that you can go muta-->lurker and just be bulletproof against everything on the ground I don't see much advantages of opening roaches. (you need like 6-8lurkers with just anything on the groun to take the hits to defend 3-4bases against 200supply roach/hydra) In which case all games should be degenerate muta wars. Maybe ravagers can break the lurkers in the midgame, but one way or another, lurkers are just a very overpowered unit that make the game pretty boring in the state they are.
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I don't reeally know where to post bugs/problems, but I noticed one and it cost me my first LOTV game T__T
If you have Roaches and Ravagers on one hotkey, a Burrowed Ravager has priority over normal Roaches. Result; you cannot attackmove, or, in fact, give any commands, as only the burrowed ravager responds...
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