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[off topic]For me, the problems is religions, all of them, not only muslim ... I just can't understand why people trust a book written ages ago I mean come on ... [/off topic]
Workers are still confined in the factory Source RMC radio
The head found was probably the head of the truck driver. This guy was apparently the ostage of the Terrorist Source LeMonde.fr / RMC radio
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On June 26 2015 20:00 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 19:58 VelJa wrote:On June 26 2015 19:55 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. France is not what I would call the example of tolerance towards Muslims. Oh really ? Can you explain why please my dear retard friend ? You must be an excellent human being Yes, I am. Awesome as fuck Now can you answer please ?
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On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. He did not defend much, he said it is a harmful comment to make. And that is indeed true, what is the point of labeling all Muslims as terrorists, or trying to prove that Islam is a violent religion? Do you want to ban it? Do you want to tell peaceful Muslims that they are doing it wrong and that they have to be violent to be "real" Muslims? Do you want to round them all up? What is the end game here? I dont see how hightening tensions/ divisions between Muslims and non-Muslims is helpful in any way. That is only doing the terrorists job for them, because that is exactly what they want to achieve.
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On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable.
There are fringe lunatics and extremists who cherry pick ignorant and violent verses in all religions. All texts have them. But just as how the KKK and WBC doesn't inherently make Christianity a religion of war/ murder/ hate, especially when adapted into modern society and understanding, neither does painting 1.6+ billion Muslims with the same brush just because of the occasional terrorist attacks by their fundamentalist minorities.
+ Show Spoiler +I know that the TL gods mods frown upon such religious debate, and so I'm going to leave this thread and go play some tennis Have a wonderful day <3
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On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. I looked up data on what you claimed, it seems that it's indeed quantifiable, but I doubt French muslims ("western" muslims in general) feel represented by those acts. They feel at worst a mild apathy about it.
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On June 26 2015 20:04 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. He did not defend much, he said it is a harmful comment to make. And that is indeed true, what is the point of labeling all Muslims as terrorists, or trying to prove that Islam is a violent religion? Do you want to ban it? Do you want to tell peaceful Muslims that they are doing it wrong and that they have to be violent to be "real" Muslims? Do you want to round them all up? What is the end game here?
Nobody wants to do that, nobody is saying that.
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On June 26 2015 20:04 VelJa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:00 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 19:58 VelJa wrote:On June 26 2015 19:55 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. France is not what I would call the example of tolerance towards Muslims. Oh really ? Can you explain why please my dear retard friend ? You must be an excellent human being Yes, I am. Awesome as fuck Now can you answer please ?
Based on your behavior neither one of us is going to get anything out of that discussion and I do not appreciate being called a retard by a complete stranger since my view opposes what I am assume is a nationalistic point of view, otherwise why get so mad? I think its better we let this one go buddy
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On June 26 2015 20:08 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:04 Redox wrote:On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. He did not defend much, he said it is a harmful comment to make. And that is indeed true, what is the point of labeling all Muslims as terrorists, or trying to prove that Islam is a violent religion? Do you want to ban it? Do you want to tell peaceful Muslims that they are doing it wrong and that they have to be violent to be "real" Muslims? Do you want to round them all up? What is the end game here? Nobody wants to do that, nobody is saying that. Oh well , take a long at the rest of my post then. What is the point of recognizing Islam as violent, or as a problem?
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On June 26 2015 20:09 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:04 VelJa wrote:On June 26 2015 20:00 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 19:58 VelJa wrote:On June 26 2015 19:55 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. France is not what I would call the example of tolerance towards Muslims. Oh really ? Can you explain why please my dear retard friend ? You must be an excellent human being Yes, I am. Awesome as fuck Now can you answer please ? Based on your behavior neither one of us is going to get anything out of that discussion and I do not appreciate being called a retard by a complete stranger since my view opposes what I am assume is a nationalistic point of view, otherwise why get so mad? I think its better we let this one go buddy Strange move to label a whole country as intolerant and then refuse to offer any explanation for how you reached that conclusion.
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On June 26 2015 20:10 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:08 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 20:04 Redox wrote:On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. He did not defend much, he said it is a harmful comment to make. And that is indeed true, what is the point of labeling all Muslims as terrorists, or trying to prove that Islam is a violent religion? Do you want to ban it? Do you want to tell peaceful Muslims that they are doing it wrong and that they have to be violent to be "real" Muslims? Do you want to round them all up? What is the end game here? Nobody wants to do that, nobody is saying that. Oh well , take a long at the rest of my post then. What is the point of recognizing Islam as violent, or as a problem?
...you realise you basically just said "i can't think of a solution to this problem, so why even consider it a problem?", right?
Personally I think we have to be very careful making broad statements about any group, much less acting on them, but the argument you're putting forward is ridiculous.
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Alright, I made a snide remark about islam, and apologise. Let me give you the reasoning behind what I say. I am not going to go out there and say all muslims are terrorists because that is ignorant. But the religion is fundamentally not designed for modern society, free speech and democracy. The holy Qu'ran says Allah is the only god (I am paraphrasing) and the entire religion is built around a framework of restrictions. Now I am not an atheist, but I reject all religious institutions, whether it's the catholic church or Islam or whatever. But over time, these religions have mellowed and become more liberal, to fill the needs of modern society. Islam however, for the large part has remained intransigent. If you notice the stereotypical appearance of a muslim has them sporting a large beard, pants that end above their ankles, skull caps etc. This is not just middle-eastern regional wear, it is specifically stated in the religion. Many things are haram, like listening to music, men and women dancing toether etc. My point here is, while there may be muslims who love peace, and follow the religion in a more liberal fashion, they are not really following their religion because again, it is specifically stated that one must follow these rules in islamic texts. More importantly for my point, Islam is a strict religion. Naturally, to politically ambitious individuals this gives them a means of controlling individuals who have strong faith, and leveraging their power as "upholders" or "strict followers" of such laws they commit violent acts against those that do not follow them. I do not for one second believe that the people at the top of organisations like ISIS do what the do out of religious sentiment. They are using religion to accumulate political power, with blatant disregard for human life. Organisations like this exist outside of religion as well, but no religion seems to breed hatred for other religions and noncompliance of religious rules, nor action upon such hate, as islam does. This is not a black or white issue, there are many complex factors that have brought islam to this crossroad, where it is almost universally regarded as conducive to hatred towards other religions and perpetration of terrorist acts. And this is not just a stereotypical view, there is no other religion that has resulted in so many deaths to innocent people, in order to bring death to infidels.
TL;DR Muslims are not the issue, Islam is a strict religion and politically ambitious leaders interpret this to meet their ends and use this to motivate individuals to commit acts of terror.
Edit - Something interesting I read while researching for this comment
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/isis-brides-secret-world-jihad-western-women-syria
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On June 26 2015 20:14 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:10 Redox wrote:On June 26 2015 20:08 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 20:04 Redox wrote:On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. He did not defend much, he said it is a harmful comment to make. And that is indeed true, what is the point of labeling all Muslims as terrorists, or trying to prove that Islam is a violent religion? Do you want to ban it? Do you want to tell peaceful Muslims that they are doing it wrong and that they have to be violent to be "real" Muslims? Do you want to round them all up? What is the end game here? Nobody wants to do that, nobody is saying that. Oh well , take a long at the rest of my post then. What is the point of recognizing Islam as violent, or as a problem? ...you realise you basically just said "i can't think of a solution to this problem, so why even consider it a problem?", right? Personally I think we have to be very careful making broad statements about any group, much less acting on them, but the argument you're putting forward is ridiculous. No, the point is that you are exacerbating the problem here with these kind of general statements. Its like hacking off an arm because it itches. Or maybe better comparison, trying to quench a fire by pouring gasoline on it.
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UPDATE
Name of the Terrorist : Yassim Salhi, He was already known by the DGSI
Source : Speech of Bernard Cazeneuve, French Minister of the Interior
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On June 26 2015 20:11 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:09 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 20:04 VelJa wrote:On June 26 2015 20:00 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 19:58 VelJa wrote:On June 26 2015 19:55 Erandorr wrote:On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. France is not what I would call the example of tolerance towards Muslims. Oh really ? Can you explain why please my dear retard friend ? You must be an excellent human being Yes, I am. Awesome as fuck Now can you answer please ? Based on your behavior neither one of us is going to get anything out of that discussion and I do not appreciate being called a retard by a complete stranger since my view opposes what I am assume is a nationalistic point of view, otherwise why get so mad? I think its better we let this one go buddy Strange move to label a whole country as intolerant and then refuse to offer any explanation for how you reached that conclusion.
Not saying France is the worst country, simple offering a counter point to him stating that being French is instilling some kind of standard of morality, without any explanation either. Because based on what I have experienced living in that country for a couple of years makes it hard for me to accept that generalisation. Good for him for being tolerant, but I really doubt his nationality has anything to do with that
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This thread got out of hand quickly.
I am just shocked of course and don't understand why these people chose this random small factory. What message do they think they are sending? Do they want to show that 'no one is safe, it could happen to anyone'?
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On June 26 2015 19:22 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. because it is all too easy to bury your head in the sand and say "not all muslims are terrorists" as if that will make the problem go away. the issue is that many of these terrorists ARE muslim and importantly, use islam or their interpretation of it to justify their actions Well, by that logic, ALL of these terrorists ARE religious and importantly, use religion or their interpretation of it to justify their actions...
The problem is not Islam. The problem is that we have parts of the world where people are poor, hungry and oppressed and seek answers/help/justice in religion.
What happened in Grenoble is horrible, but we should not point fingers to innocents, just because they are muslims.
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On June 26 2015 20:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. There are fringe lunatics and extremists who cherry pick ignorant and violent verses in all religions. All texts have them. But just as how the KKK and WBC doesn't inherently make Christianity a religion of war/ murder/ hate, especially when adapted into modern society and understanding, neither does painting 1.6+ billion Muslims with the same brush just because of the occasional terrorist attacks by their fundamentalist minorities. + Show Spoiler +I know that the TL gods mods frown upon such religious debate, and so I'm going to leave this thread and go play some tennis Have a wonderful day <3
You have weakened your stand by stating this. There are fundamentalist groups and individuals in every religion, but it's almost exclusively Muslim fundamentalist groups that indulge in violent behaviour. It is not by accident that Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, Hezbollah etc all exist, while there isn't a single religious terrorist organisation in the spotlight right now that is Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish or any other religion. Case in point - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groups
Let me clarify something. I do not judge individuals for being muslim, and I am not an islamophobe. But the evidence irrefutably points to the fact that the religion of Islam is conducive to, and has a greater likelihood for causing involvement in terrorist behaviour.
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On June 26 2015 20:27 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 19:22 ahswtini wrote:On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. because it is all too easy to bury your head in the sand and say "not all muslims are terrorists" as if that will make the problem go away. the issue is that many of these terrorists ARE muslim and importantly, use islam or their interpretation of it to justify their actions Well, by that logic, ALL of these terrorists ARE religious and importantly, use religion or their interpretation of it to justify their actions... The problem is not Islam. The problem is that we have parts of the world where people are poor, hungry and oppressed and seek answers/help/justice in religion. Well this is not correct either. Many of those terrorists were not poor. Losers with little success in life maybe, but surely not hungry. Relatively more of them are from western countries than from poor regions.
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UPDATE :
Yassim Salhi was arrested by Fireman, not Policeman. The Fireman was the 1st arrived on the crime scene Source : Le Monde
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On June 26 2015 20:29 manicmessiah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 20:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 26 2015 19:59 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 19:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:This is so sad On June 26 2015 18:56 Kerm wrote:On June 26 2015 18:31 manicmessiah wrote: Religion of peace boys I was going to report this because it's shocking (basically saying "all muslim = murderous terrorists"), but actually it might be that I (as French) have different standard (not claiming they are better btw) than US people so i'll just say here i find that kind of statement very harmful. And stupid. It's definitely a harmful and stupid comment to be made. I love how liberal people have to defend an idelogy that attacks everything liberalism stands for. If you had a political party that advocates stoning adulterers, forces women to cover themselves, commands the killing of gays, and demands the death penalty for thought crime, you'd be free to criticise that party. But because it is a religion, it's excempt from critical inspection. And if IS and Boko Haram don't represent Islam at large, surely the overwhelming majority of Muslisms who live in Muslim majority countries are. They don't kill people, because they're not psychopaths, but more often than not they condone the killing. And that "more often than not" isn't a shot in the blue, it's quantifiable. There are fringe lunatics and extremists who cherry pick ignorant and violent verses in all religions. All texts have them. But just as how the KKK and WBC doesn't inherently make Christianity a religion of war/ murder/ hate, especially when adapted into modern society and understanding, neither does painting 1.6+ billion Muslims with the same brush just because of the occasional terrorist attacks by their fundamentalist minorities. + Show Spoiler +I know that the TL gods mods frown upon such religious debate, and so I'm going to leave this thread and go play some tennis Have a wonderful day <3 You have weakened your stand by stating this. There are fundamentalist groups and individuals in every religion, but it's almost exclusively Muslim fundamentalist groups that indulge in violent behaviour. It is not by accident that Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, Hezbollah etc all exist, while there isn't a single religious terrorist organisation in the spotlight right now that is Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish or any other religion. Case in point - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groupsLet me clarify something. I do not judge individuals for being muslim, and I am not an islamophobe. But the evidence irrefutably points to the fact that the religion of Islam is conducive to, and has a greater likelihood for, terrorist behaviour.
What about those buddist terrorist, who blow up and murder people in the name of their religion? What about the numerous times people have used Christianity to invade and murder innocents for their own gain, while their soldiers probably believed their actions to be just?
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