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On September 08 2016 18:26 trutaCz wrote: I never said that event itself was bad, i just mentioned what can be done to improve and make the final result better. Events are not ment to be just for players, its for the viewers too, is 200ppl a good number for the top foreigner event? All kill format means 'good bye' to the medium and less skilled players. If we gonna say all was very good and fine, we never gonna go forward. No one said this event is perfect but this one was better than the early one.but the main problem here is activity,even if we switch the format to a team league i doubt the balance will be better,just cuz we re suffering by activity,maybe changing the format for bo1 51v1 removing 2v2 and adding 3v3 can make this more fun ? Idk ,interviews articles ,im pretty sure any of us could take the iniative and do it,and the thing is ,there are no many organizers,there are no many casters,and there are no many players to compete in a 8-10 team league.
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Bisutopia19044 Posts
On September 08 2016 19:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 16:49 BisuDagger wrote:On September 08 2016 15:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: This is not a teamliquid event,so dont expect to have coverage from tl team,they re proly busy with korean coverage etc,or playing in batteryshield,if the event is not from tl dont expect to see even a post from them like they do in their coverages,i think the viewer rate was decent for this event,even if the thread was empty,and i think this part was our fault,this was a league created for us the players afterall it was our part to show more love and support,there not many people to help,i wish more top players helped about this.i guess an all kill format could be interesting for the league.is not Poland or Russia fault to have so many good playrers,i think the event had a good sucess. I really wish i had time for foreign events, but korean timed events work better since they occur in the early morning. As far as coverage, our current staff barely has the bandwidth for korean events. It takes a lot of effort for us to get them done. Maybe we can find the most important things staff can help with and at least accomplish that. What do you want most from us? Community posts for the starts of big foreign tournys, a finals writeup, something else? I understand and find totally fine people priorities.And i can understand our event or leagues are not so skilled compared to the korean,that being said there are lot of skilled writers on tl that atleast from time to time could do a write up to some of our events,and maybe checking some of the defiler tourneys.but it wasnt me trying to blame tl,i was just pointing the situation and what the main priority is. I just love bw in general no matter if they are playing from Peru chile australia or Congo :d I feel you. I didn't think you were playing the blame game. I do think it helps if that we identify the biggest roles TL staff can play so we are more engaged in the foreign community.
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I agree with Trutacz, that a bo1 style would be much better. If there will be another Teamleague (Nation League or Clanleague), I think the format of SBWI Teamleague is the best. The format was 6 1v1 à bo1 + 1v1 Ace match played on 7 different maps. Though it is probably better to reduce it to 4 1v1s with Ace match due to lower activity. This offers a good variety for viewers and better games due to a better potential for preparation against a specific opponent.
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Ace match cannot be played using ICC grids, if you remember that was our beginning format but we had to change at last minute with another normal 1v1.
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If that is the only problem, the 2v2 slot could just be misused for the ace match, couldn't it? The first player of each team would be the actual player and the second one would just be a dummy player. In Nation League there even was already one in each team to prevent disbanding the teams. You can also choose any player in the 2v2 so it would totally work as ace match replacement. A better approach would be to just change the clan league system, but I guess that doesn't happen.
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and the ace match can be played vs the same player ?
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On September 08 2016 11:13 trutaCz wrote: TLS legacy cups were a waste of potential they had. Nation wars are going to be the waste of potential too. Lets bring the facts: -We have a lot of teams, and only two of them really fight for the win -We have a lot or walkovers, Nation teams disbanding after a few matches due to bad results, or players not really caring of it -We have a low viewership - I heard from people that they dont care about nations at all and they dont follow the event -The rules of current map per week kills strategical aspect of predicting which player will Play which map, -Ace match if there is a draw, that was always exciting for the viewers, because basicly that was fight between two very good players. -Bo1 for team leagues seems to be better idea beacuse in bo1 on specific map, weaker player can bring some special strategy and take out the better player -Coverage for the event, liquipedia page, stats per players,races,maps,rankings,interviews
Probably many many more which i forgot at the moment, these are my thoughts about events organized in past months. I have the feeling the events are organized without passion or knowledge about how it should like to provide a success. It also may be lack of people to organize(I never seen a topic created by organizers where they look for help to improve quality of event....)
If you are really saying we, the organizers, weren't motivated for this event, im a frustrated tbh. I spent almost every Sunday on it, countless hours finding sponsors, setting up rules, creating banners, etc etc.
But you are raising good points, so i'd like to adress them:
@Coverage: The main reason our coverage wasn't better, is that we don't have the personnel. I have limited skills( as a non native english) and time to write fancy articles and in fact we didn't have somebody on ICCup Staff who was very qualified for it apart from xkcd. Further, we need a TL Admin to make the graphic changes with CSS to the article's to design them graphically in an appealing fashion. As BD said, TL has very limited resources for coverage atm as well.
I did ask quite a bit of people for it, but not in public, that's why you didn't see anything. I contacted people who i know to have the ability to write good coverage and with some experience in it. Perhaps i could've made an open appeal on TL.
@Ace Match: As Face said, it's technically not possible. The dev team doesn't give unlimited support to the needs of the ICC section too..
@Liquipedia Page: i asked a couple of known LP editors about it, they offered me to check on my progress with the page. But then it takes me half an hour to create a single table, having no idea about the code, so i didn't get far.
@Balance: True Poland and Russia are very dominant. I think most of the other teams enjoyed it nonetheless, but really this is a thing we can't fix. We could invite an korean amateur team for instance or a chinese one, but we thought it to be no good idea. Korean team would probably destroy everyone else and China has to big lag problems.
@ starting maps: good point, we'll think about it.
@Teams disbanding, players not caring etc: That's the biggest issue in my opinion. TLS Champs suffered from it too and many other events did in the past. But we can only provide the frame for the event, players need to motivate themselves and take it serious.
im my perspective, there were two major issues which both come down to the overall state of foreign BW atm: Lack of people to do staff work for the event and lack of player dedication. Both comes down to the foreign scene being very small. You notice how few people play actively these days, same is true for people who spent their free time organizing events for this Game and in the end limits what i can achieve in terms of coverage, great teams and big prize money.
Kind regards (;
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On September 09 2016 02:08 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2016 11:13 trutaCz wrote: TLS legacy cups were a waste of potential they had. Nation wars are going to be the waste of potential too. Lets bring the facts: -We have a lot of teams, and only two of them really fight for the win -We have a lot or walkovers, Nation teams disbanding after a few matches due to bad results, or players not really caring of it -We have a low viewership - I heard from people that they dont care about nations at all and they dont follow the event -The rules of current map per week kills strategical aspect of predicting which player will Play which map, -Ace match if there is a draw, that was always exciting for the viewers, because basicly that was fight between two very good players. -Bo1 for team leagues seems to be better idea beacuse in bo1 on specific map, weaker player can bring some special strategy and take out the better player -Coverage for the event, liquipedia page, stats per players,races,maps,rankings,interviews
Probably many many more which i forgot at the moment, these are my thoughts about events organized in past months. I have the feeling the events are organized without passion or knowledge about how it should like to provide a success. It also may be lack of people to organize(I never seen a topic created by organizers where they look for help to improve quality of event....) If you are really saying we, the organizers, weren't motivated for this event, im a frustrated tbh. I spent almost every Sunday on it, countless hours finding sponsors, setting up rules, creating banners, etc etc. But you are raising good points, so i'd like to adress them: @Coverage: The main reason our coverage wasn't better, is that we don't have the personnel. I have limited skills( as a non native english) and time to write fancy articles and in fact we didn't have somebody on ICCup Staff who was very qualified for it apart from xkcd. Further, we need a TL Admin to make the graphic changes with CSS to the article's to design them graphically in an appealing fashion. As BD said, TL has very limited resources for coverage atm as well. I did ask quite a bit of people for it, but not in public, that's why you didn't see anything. I contacted people who i know to have the ability to write good coverage and with some experience in it. Perhaps i could've made an open appeal on TL. @Ace Match: As Face said, it's technically not possible. The dev team doesn't give unlimited support to the needs of the ICC section too.. @Liquipedia Page: i asked a couple of known LP editors about it, they offered me to check on my progress with the page. But then it takes me half an hour to create a single table, having no idea about the code, so i didn't get far. @Balance: True Poland and Russia are very dominant. I think most of the other teams enjoyed it nonetheless, but really this is a thing we can't fix. We could invite an korean amateur team for instance or a chinese one, but we thought it to be no good idea. Korean team would probably destroy everyone else and China has to big lag problems. @ starting maps: good point, we'll think about it. @Teams disbanding, players not caring etc: That's the biggest issue in my opinion. TLS Champs suffered from it too and many other events did in the past. But we can only provide the frame for the event, players need to motivate themselves and take it serious. im my perspective, there were two major issues which both come down to the overall state of foreign BW atm: Lack of people to do staff work for the event and lack of player dedication. Both comes down to the foreign scene being very small. You notice how few people play actively these days, same is true for people who spent their free time organizing events for this Game and in the end limits what i can achieve in terms of coverage, great teams and big prize money. Kind regards (;
@Coverage Why not ask in public? You guys probably contacted a lot of ppl, but if you do it in public also maybe you can find people
@Ace Match You can use 3rd party site to make ace match possible.(You dont even need any site tbh), unless you just want to host it everything on iccup site.
@Balance Thats why i suggested transforming it into teams eague wih less teams, and better spread of players.
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bo3 is less random in general, idk why make events more random for the lulz -_-
An important aspect is the hype, the casters, how you cast, etc - this is big.
Wasn't bad event, lot's of games played, can't say the material is bad, but you can always sell it a bit better if you want.
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One of the things that has to go imo is the usage of observer mode all the time. I don't want to see supplies and whatnot hogging the screen (it's not pleasing to the eyes).
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I really like to see drone count during games, so casters might sometimes give a hint about that if you drop obs mode. Its okay for me ^^
Everyones different opinions, chaos here ;-)
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On September 09 2016 02:27 trutaCz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2016 02:08 Cele wrote:On September 08 2016 11:13 trutaCz wrote: TLS legacy cups were a waste of potential they had. Nation wars are going to be the waste of potential too. Lets bring the facts: -We have a lot of teams, and only two of them really fight for the win -We have a lot or walkovers, Nation teams disbanding after a few matches due to bad results, or players not really caring of it -We have a low viewership - I heard from people that they dont care about nations at all and they dont follow the event -The rules of current map per week kills strategical aspect of predicting which player will Play which map, -Ace match if there is a draw, that was always exciting for the viewers, because basicly that was fight between two very good players. -Bo1 for team leagues seems to be better idea beacuse in bo1 on specific map, weaker player can bring some special strategy and take out the better player -Coverage for the event, liquipedia page, stats per players,races,maps,rankings,interviews
Probably many many more which i forgot at the moment, these are my thoughts about events organized in past months. I have the feeling the events are organized without passion or knowledge about how it should like to provide a success. It also may be lack of people to organize(I never seen a topic created by organizers where they look for help to improve quality of event....) If you are really saying we, the organizers, weren't motivated for this event, im a frustrated tbh. I spent almost every Sunday on it, countless hours finding sponsors, setting up rules, creating banners, etc etc. But you are raising good points, so i'd like to adress them: @Coverage: The main reason our coverage wasn't better, is that we don't have the personnel. I have limited skills( as a non native english) and time to write fancy articles and in fact we didn't have somebody on ICCup Staff who was very qualified for it apart from xkcd. Further, we need a TL Admin to make the graphic changes with CSS to the article's to design them graphically in an appealing fashion. As BD said, TL has very limited resources for coverage atm as well. I did ask quite a bit of people for it, but not in public, that's why you didn't see anything. I contacted people who i know to have the ability to write good coverage and with some experience in it. Perhaps i could've made an open appeal on TL. @Ace Match: As Face said, it's technically not possible. The dev team doesn't give unlimited support to the needs of the ICC section too.. @Liquipedia Page: i asked a couple of known LP editors about it, they offered me to check on my progress with the page. But then it takes me half an hour to create a single table, having no idea about the code, so i didn't get far. @Balance: True Poland and Russia are very dominant. I think most of the other teams enjoyed it nonetheless, but really this is a thing we can't fix. We could invite an korean amateur team for instance or a chinese one, but we thought it to be no good idea. Korean team would probably destroy everyone else and China has to big lag problems. @ starting maps: good point, we'll think about it. @Teams disbanding, players not caring etc: That's the biggest issue in my opinion. TLS Champs suffered from it too and many other events did in the past. But we can only provide the frame for the event, players need to motivate themselves and take it serious. im my perspective, there were two major issues which both come down to the overall state of foreign BW atm: Lack of people to do staff work for the event and lack of player dedication. Both comes down to the foreign scene being very small. You notice how few people play actively these days, same is true for people who spent their free time organizing events for this Game and in the end limits what i can achieve in terms of coverage, great teams and big prize money. Kind regards (; @Coverage Why not ask in public? You guys probably contacted a lot of ppl, but if you do it in public also maybe you can find people @Ace Match You can use 3rd party site to make ace match possible.(You dont even need any site tbh), unless you just want to host it everything on iccup site. @Balance Thats why i suggested transforming it into teams eague wih less teams, and better spread of players.
In before you think I hate (the opposite, I know you did good jobs yourself), just a few notes from the past:
1) Most suggestions, including worries about viewership
This game is as good as dead outside of Korea and nothing will change that easily. Hence, every player, every viewer, every writer has to come from within the own ranks, at least to start out with. Every player, viewer and writer also has a life by now, half of the people I knew either have prestigeous jobs, a family or multiple kids, many times all thrice combined. Most of what you can expect is for them to tune in occasionally. That's about it, for now. This, summarized, says you have limited means on a small scene. You need a shit ton of hype on channels none of us uses, including this page's front, bigger social media accounts and shit holes like reddit to promote a larger tour. It'd be exponentially more succesful if you add glorious names from the past, hopeing some of the SCII / MOBA people might flip over - and that's viewers only. Still doesn't fix the player problem, even people returning would have a hard time to deliver top notch play.
Sadly, this sends you on a downward spiral. It's always better to do "something" than "the best there is", but that also means you have to work with outdated garbage like ICCup's clan league system, unknown casters and semi-skilled players in the lower parts of leagues and tours. If you're lucky, it catches on and grows, but it'll get to some hold in the long run if you can't break through with it. That's probably what you underestimate, people often tuned in into somewhat less-good streams only to see people they once knew and immediately forgot about the game afterwards. Or that there were a lot more people involved in the process, be it TLC or ISL. You remember names like Game or Eywa, because they were good at self-promotion rather than organizing, and you also mix up a group of ten or more people for various TLC/TLS events. If ICCup at the moment, besides their staff for this particular event, can match the number of active people behind the scene it'd be surprising - in other words, there are less ICCup admins for the server now than there were helpers for the big tours in the past.
2) Asking publicly
I have done this time and time again. It just might be my reputation, but rarely anyone half-reliable turned up (people underestimate the work hours per week over months before saying "give me work"). This includes server announces, add-ons to news pieces, direct questions, forum threads and main page news on TL, ICCup, bw.de and partially even reps.ru. Always the same old faces turned up, in Cele's case someone from back before SCII-Beta. I have seen others having the same problem, namely every ICCup higher up whatsoever; again, maybe the reputation. However, orgas like Largo told me the very same and he's argueably a hated person anywhere, same goes for 2pac.
eon's point is legit, though, alongside arcneon, the stellar case for ... not doing something. Again, no blame, they at least played when they were asking and they were helpful with constructive criticism.
3) Balancing Teams
This is the safest route for getting flames from any side. Case: Scan in TL events - hate him or love him. You might think this is an exception, when the opposite is the standard - organize any lower ranked tour and people will hate on you. Compare this to the "ICCup start of season" thread in the general forums. This story is so old I can barely remember when I read it first: "The high ranked smurfs kill me! I know, I'm D-!"
I really understand you and I felt tons of events were wasted potential, including things I organized and things I loved to just watch - e.g. Defiler as an established weekly series. However, that's what you're willing to suck up, an endless road of disappointment, as long as you can get some fun out of it. It's one of the reasons I won't lift a finger lately, not because I hate you all or I hate the game. Simply no more time.
To just not end it with depressing statements: What REALLY makes a HUGE difference for any organizer, writer or caster is feedback of any kind, as long as it's not downright insulting. People tend to consume only, not a "I liked it", comments about the game or any kind of sign anyone ever read/watched/followed what you did. Don't be a lurker. That's what eventually drives you to organize another event and/or make it better than the one before. Also, picking up what I started with, spread the word, especially on pages you think nobody cares about. Don't stick with TL's BW forum, write a blog here. Hype up your team, have allys comment on blogs, raise attention. Go to the shit-hole reddit is and cluster the place with your event's coverage. Go to related forums and post there as well. Bump retired players and tell them how awesome this game is, then bump them again a week after. And the week following.
If Gaywa has shown anything, then it's that the one who screamed loudest is heard the most.
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Creating anything requires people interested to do so. We have been looking at a few options for a while now, but bare in mind that if an event with a cash prize is not enough to motivate players to play once a week, we got a more serious problem than it looks in the surface.
Here are the raw facts: We are not kids anymore with tons of hours spare to waste. For any event to work well it requires all actors in that event to do their part correctly. If one actor can break the event for the rest of the actors, and the probability of that happening is high, it is probably not going to be considered as worth the effort.
To circumvent this, we could use small form factor events like "iccup attack", or similar to draw more attention to broodwar, but bare in mind that even that will require a lot of work if we dont have rotating streamers. (One player plays one day, the streams would have to be more often to gain momentum).
So even in the most simple event format it takes some work. We could create a thread in TL (broodwar) about possible events and their formats, after all many head think better than one.
I for one was considering creating a Broodwar Daily of sorts, using Tuesday to Friday with different ideas to create things like 3v3 hunters one day, race wars another, iccup attack, then another day I would stream my own practice games and another analyze replays from great players.
Sounds like a plan right? Not really: 1. I would need to give my e-mail to people and the constant streaming opens you up for DDoS attacks and viruses. 2. I dont always get home on time, so I could not make sure to actually stream every day. 3. I work 8 hours starring at a computer screen. You can imagine how much I want to be next to a PC after I get home. 4. I dont even know how many people would care about something like this (most of BW threads dont get anywhere near as many responses as viewers we got in NL). 5. As much as I like streaming, its something that can burn you out.
Its not a question of what we want to do, is more a question of what we can do.
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Because of this league i started playing again.
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Netherlands19124 Posts
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Russian Federation376 Posts
good league
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Bisutopia19044 Posts
With Tastosis and Co. casting korean leagues now, it makes more sense if I cast foreign replays now. I'd like to cast replays/leagues Tuesday nights if iccup or anyone else has content they'd like to provide me with. This would be separate from my Thursday casts.
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"best of uncasted games" series will continue this week. Sundays at 20 CET you can have your weekly portion of Broodwar until we run out of good uncasted games.
On September 14 2016 02:22 BisuDagger wrote: With Tastosis and Co. casting korean leagues now, it makes more sense if I cast foreign replays now. I'd like to cast replays/leagues Tuesday nights if iccup or anyone else has content they'd like to provide me with. This would be separate from my Thursday casts. Feel free to join sundays if you have the time.
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Bisutopia19044 Posts
On September 15 2016 02:58 _Animus_ wrote:"best of uncasted games" series will continue this week. Sundays at 20 CET you can have your weekly portion of Broodwar until we run out of good uncasted games. Show nested quote +On September 14 2016 02:22 BisuDagger wrote: With Tastosis and Co. casting korean leagues now, it makes more sense if I cast foreign replays now. I'd like to cast replays/leagues Tuesday nights if iccup or anyone else has content they'd like to provide me with. This would be separate from my Thursday casts. Feel free to join sundays if you have the time. Looks up CET timezone... Central European Timezone? Brutal
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On September 15 2016 03:35 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2016 02:58 _Animus_ wrote:"best of uncasted games" series will continue this week. Sundays at 20 CET you can have your weekly portion of Broodwar until we run out of good uncasted games. On September 14 2016 02:22 BisuDagger wrote: With Tastosis and Co. casting korean leagues now, it makes more sense if I cast foreign replays now. I'd like to cast replays/leagues Tuesday nights if iccup or anyone else has content they'd like to provide me with. This would be separate from my Thursday casts. Feel free to join sundays if you have the time. Looks up CET timezone... Central European Timezone? Brutal
yep sorry. Get in contact with herbmon perhaps? He's our american caster in the staff atm. If you guys wanna cast something, we have plenty of opportunities actually.
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