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If you don't know, units that spawn from eggs do not spawn at full health immediately. If the egg is damaged, the unit will spawn with with the percentage of health the egg was. After a short period of time it becomes full health.
For example, let's say you have 6 zerglings attacking an egg. They bring the egg down to 170/200. This is 85% of its health, so when the egg hatches it spawns a single zergling (there's a delay before a second zergling is "cloned" from the first one). At 85% of health the zergling is spawned at 30 health. If each of the six zerglings hits it once, it will disappear without a death animation. When this happens, a second zergling is not spawned at all.
This is of course a combination of two bugs: zerglings don't spawn in pairs initially (this messes up hotkeying lings out of eggs as well) and units out of eggs spawn with partial HP.
I can deal with having to hotkey lings after they come out of the egg. But I can't do anything about my lings disappearing into the void when being attacked by a 9 pooling player. This doesn't have the correct animation, and it makes ZvZ a less forgiving match-up where a player can camp your producing hatchery being up only a few lings. If this change is made, it won't change that much, since he can still attack the hatchery, but it gives the player with the hatchery a chance to catch up by producing from both hatches instead of just one.
This also affects the situation when you have three lurker eggs morphing. If you started them almost at the same time because your lurker upgrade JUST got done, you'll have one blocking the ramp and two on top of the ramp all morphing at the same time. The problem is that when the lurker egg gets whittled down to a small percentage of its HP (let's say 30%), the lurker will pop out with little HP and disappear. Then the Terran breaks your ramp because two lurkers is not enough to hold without support from other units. This is an issue that's part of why so many games in ZvT end when the Terran kills the Zerg third.
This seems like buggy behavior and leads to short wins for the player who benefits. If we're fixing valkyries/goons, which leads to changes to game balance, then Zerg should get a bug fix as well.
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United Kingdom1658 Posts
That is often an important feature of games, and not an undesirable one in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't view it as a bug to be removed!
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On March 30 2017 03:45 ImbaTosS wrote: That is often an important feature of games, and not an undesirable one in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't view it as a bug to be removed!
If Zerg had a super easy way to get a third vs. +1 5 rax, I might agree with you. But it's even hard for professionals to establish a third sometimes. I'm not looking forward to Terrans making 11 valks in the late game and killing all my queens/overlords because the sprite limit is removed. Doesn't seem fair that Zerg don't benefit from the patch as much.
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Make units earlier and faster!
In all seriousness though, it's part of the game. I've played zerg for years and years and I've never once lost a game where my lurkers died upon hatching or eggs shot down by M&M and zealots and said, "That's the sole reason why I lost that game". You can easily trade this disadvantage by the fact you can morph lurker eggs anywhere and create walls for your units to micro around, block ramps, etc... atleast that's how I see it.
Also, when a unit hatches and is surrounded by zerglings or mass M&M etc, I don't feel it's even going to do anything when it morphs besides just die, anyway. The units basically shoot at the egg more damage than the actual unit would need to be killed.. Think of marines shooting at an egg for a few seconds before it pops and the unit dies....you think a zergling that hatched would live that long anyway?
If you get 9 pooled as zerg and you die to it, it's probably a build order loss.. not an imbalance with zerg eggs. That's the way ZvZ has always worked
Just curious... I may be wrong, but did you switch from SC2 to BW?
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You've brought this up before in the other thread and while I do think that there is some credit to your stance, I will repeat that this would undeniably affect gameplay and therefore should not be considered.
11 Valks in TvZ late-game is simply not a likely scenario given their cost, the infrastructure demands, and their supply.
This change you are proposing would have a much more serious effect on potential balance and that is the #1 reason why I don't support it. I haven't ever heard of a pro complaining about this. I have yet to see any statistical evidence proving that Zerg needs to be buffed, period. You are basing this off of anecdotal experience, probably with a share of loss-justification.
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11 Valks in TvZ late game lol. Just waiting to get plage and 1 mutalisk. :D
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On March 30 2017 03:50 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 03:45 ImbaTosS wrote: That is often an important feature of games, and not an undesirable one in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't view it as a bug to be removed! If Zerg had a super easy way to get a third vs. +1 5 rax, I might agree with you. But it's even hard for professionals to establish a third sometimes. I'm not looking forward to Terrans making 11 valks in the late game and killing all my queens/overlords because the sprite limit is removed. Doesn't seem fair that Zerg don't benefit from the patch as much.
Late game your overlords should be spread all over the map vs Terran. That's a lot of extra APM while you pound him with swarm ultralisk ling and split drop across map at same time, etc.
If you watch any pro zergs vs T, they make shit tons of extra overlords because they constantly are saccing them.
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On March 30 2017 03:50 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 03:45 ImbaTosS wrote: That is often an important feature of games, and not an undesirable one in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't view it as a bug to be removed! If Zerg had a super easy way to get a third vs. +1 5 rax, I might agree with you. But it's even hard for professionals to establish a third sometimes. I'm not looking forward to Terrans making 11 valks in the late game and killing all my queens/overlords because the sprite limit is removed. Doesn't seem fair that Zerg don't benefit from the patch as much.
You know that the devourer exists right?
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And thus marks the flood gates opening of balance complaints. They aren't changing anything in-game. If pro players and the people that Blizzard collaborated with during the last 18 months had a consensus of what to change, this would have been changed. Since it is not, we can establish that they don't believe this is an aspect of the game that is negatively impacting balance/gameplay.
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Bisutopia19035 Posts
On March 30 2017 04:51 Demurity wrote: And thus marks the flood gates opening of balance complaints. They aren't changing anything in-game. If pro players and the people that Blizzard collaborated with during the last 18 months had a consensus of what to change, this would have been changed. Since it is not, we can establish that they don't believe this is an aspect of the game that is negatively impacting balance/gameplay. This is one of those, you can consistently reproduce bugs, but is also one that isn't a constant factor in every game. That is why it will not be fixed.
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Fix reaver walking toward the target rather than shooting!
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On March 30 2017 05:04 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 04:51 Demurity wrote: And thus marks the flood gates opening of balance complaints. They aren't changing anything in-game. If pro players and the people that Blizzard collaborated with during the last 18 months had a consensus of what to change, this would have been changed. Since it is not, we can establish that they don't believe this is an aspect of the game that is negatively impacting balance/gameplay. This is one of those, you can consistently reproduce bugs, but is also one that isn't a constant factor in every game. That is why it will not be fixed.
Right. There can literally be hundreds of threads that bring up the minutiae that Blizzard could fix, and they shouldn't take this path. Why choose one small thing over another? It's too much of a rabbit hole that can be avoided altogether, given the decent balance we currently have.
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On March 30 2017 05:12 Bonyth wrote:Fix reaver walking toward the target rather than shooting!
bonyth! click more accurately :D
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On March 30 2017 05:12 Bonyth wrote:Fix reaver walking toward the target rather than shooting!
Yeah I've lost reavers because of this... so annoying!!!
Also, wouldn't a unit spawning out of an egg that is being shot at enough for the egg to almost die, die anyways? I mean you need a lot of units targeting the egg, considering they have like 20 armor was it? And 200 health.
So you are saying it should die instead of disappear? I'd say the reason you lose the game is not because the unit disappears but because you eneded up in a scenario where your eggs are surrounded by enemy units in the first place lol
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On March 30 2017 05:12 Demurity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 05:12 Bonyth wrote:Fix reaver walking toward the target rather than shooting! bonyth! click more accurately :D
Reavers sometimes walk towards target if you click on the target individually
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On March 30 2017 05:12 Demurity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 05:12 Bonyth wrote:Fix reaver walking toward the target rather than shooting! bonyth! click more accurately :D It's not an issue of inaccurate clicking. Pretty sure it only happens vs diagonal targets- the reaver will just walk closer since it's not detecting that the target is in range. I don't know why it happens though- maybe something to do with the isometric layout increasing the calculated distance to the target. But anyway I don't think either of these "bugs" should be fixed. The constant feature creep and complaints are the things I hate most about certain parts of the SC2 community (besides retarded "daed gaem" twitch memes).
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On March 30 2017 05:29 JungleTerrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 05:12 Bonyth wrote:Fix reaver walking toward the target rather than shooting! Yeah I've lost reavers because of this... so annoying!!! Also, wouldn't a unit spawning out of an egg that is being shot at enough for the egg to almost die, die anyways? I mean you need a lot of units targeting the egg, considering they have like 20 armor was it? And 200 health. So you are saying it should die instead of disappear? I'd say the reason you lose the game is not because the unit disappears but because you eneded up in a scenario where your eggs are surrounded by enemy units in the first place lol
It's by design, I am making my egg there to BLOCK the ramp, it's being surrounded for that reason. At least give my unit full HP once it spawns, which it's supposed to have. Maybe it dies anyway or maybe it runs up the ramp and burrows, making the 3 lurker ramp block that the Terran probably can't break. In that scenario it probably makes or breaks the game.
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Or just bring another Lurker do the defence to begin with? This is not really a bug, and I find any talk about balance changes rather moot before the full impact of the valkyrie fire block and unit movement jam fixes is not even known.
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On March 30 2017 06:56 Freakling wrote: Or just bring another Lurker do the defence to begin with?
then I would have less lurkers at my nat and possibly get attacked there instead with no way to transfer because hive isn't done yet
the thing is, half of the time the marines don't dps the lurker all the way down so when it regains its HP it will still have a lot left
so there's a bit of luck involved (uphill miss chance) on whether your lurker survives with like 50 HP remaining or disappears (because it was spawned with like 80 HP so if marines do 80 damage it disappears, and if they do 75 it has 50 when it regains health)
I don't like large swings like this due to luck
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Therefor when a lurker dies, its spikes do twice the damage. (40 instead of 20) oneshotting the marines. Fix this too pls /s
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