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I'm confused as to why some people think race picking shouldn't be allowed. I'll safely assume that those who are against this feature are either not very good at this game, or came from SC2, which means your opinion is nullified Since I've been playing this game off and on since 1998, some match ups have become stale and boring to me. I'm a Protoss main player but play Random most of the time, as that's what I find to be fun. After all, I play this game to have fun. I have no problem playing mirror match ups, I just find them to be boring, stale and stagnant. So why is it an issue that Instead of playing PvP, I'd like to play ZvP? In order for me to play ZvP in a ranked game now, I'd have to hope to get matched with a Protoss player while playing Zerg, right? A reasonable solution would be to allow players to choose their race in the game lobby instead of forcing you to choose your race without even knowing the map that you're going to play on. What about players who avoid playing a certain race on certain maps? It's not so much about avoiding mirror match ups for me, it's more about having the freedom to play what race you want against your opponents. I remember joining many games on iccup where my opponent had random chosen. They would wait for you to choose your race and they would choose theirs accordingly. Sometimes I'd be an ass and tell them, "Your race"? If they refused to choose, I'd usually say go Random vs Random, which quickly prompted in a ban. There's quite a few players who play specific match ups... I know Dragon and myself aren't the only players who CAN play mirror match ups, but love to play other match ups as well.
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@Gypsy, is anyone arguing for the ability to only play 2/3rds of the population? All I'm seeing is I'd like to play vs every race/player, but I have a different race preference vs "people with green hair." Most people just happen to race pick to avoid mirrors.
While conflicts can happen, it's pretty rare. At the end of the day, people who have refused to play a matchup are still probably better at it than most. Like in tournaments, if someone picked random you'd just pick a race and win cause better, regardless of mu outcome.
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Looks like I'm committed on this one boys.
In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why?
Here are a couple of things to consider:
How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other.
-> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP)
-> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever.
Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing.
Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue.
Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking.
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I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict.
I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors.
Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid.
Great stuff guys haha you got me.
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It's not so much about avoiding mirror match ups for me, it's more about having the freedom to play what race you want against your opponents You have that freedom. You can race dodge, you can play only certain maps and avoid 99% of the experiences broodwar has to offer, hell, you can even play people far worse than you. Dont play on this ladder, play on a private ladder, or leave games when things go unfavourably to you. No ones forcing you to do anything. These rules exist for a reason, it simplifies the searching, it simplifies ELO, especially for people who are playing at a skill rank or and time where there is a smaller player pool.
How well would auto match making work if we allowed for a thousand different preconditions? I play zvz but not on x map, where I also dont play zvp. but I play zvp on y and z, but tvt on map AB only, and on and on. If you want your little special snowflake conditions, just host a damn game, or play on iccup, or play on fish. No ones stopping you.
Edit: Good post gypsy!
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On August 18 2017 08:25 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +It's not so much about avoiding mirror match ups for me, it's more about having the freedom to play what race you want against your opponents You have that freedom. You can race dodge, you can play only certain maps and avoid 99% of the experiences broodwar has to offer, hell, you can even play people far worse than you. Dont play on this ladder, play on a private ladder, or leave games when things go unfavourably to you. No ones forcing you to do anything. These rules exist for a reason, it simplifies the searching, it simplifies ELO, especially for people who are playing at a skill rank or and time where there is a smaller player pool. How well would auto match making work if we allowed for a thousand different preconditions? I play zvz but not on x map, where I also dont play zvp. but I play zvp on y and z, but tvt on map AB only, and on and on. If you want your little special snowflake conditions, just host a damn game, or play on iccup, or play on fish. No ones stopping you. Edit: Good post gypsy! I'm versatile enough to play any match up in the game. My point was that I prefer playing certain match ups over others. If you can't pick certain match ups in a ranked game, so be it. This is my opinion on the matter, as race picking has been allowed on every other server since this game came out.
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On August 18 2017 08:34 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 08:25 Dazed. wrote:It's not so much about avoiding mirror match ups for me, it's more about having the freedom to play what race you want against your opponents You have that freedom. You can race dodge, you can play only certain maps and avoid 99% of the experiences broodwar has to offer, hell, you can even play people far worse than you. Dont play on this ladder, play on a private ladder, or leave games when things go unfavourably to you. No ones forcing you to do anything. These rules exist for a reason, it simplifies the searching, it simplifies ELO, especially for people who are playing at a skill rank or and time where there is a smaller player pool. How well would auto match making work if we allowed for a thousand different preconditions? I play zvz but not on x map, where I also dont play zvp. but I play zvp on y and z, but tvt on map AB only, and on and on. If you want your little special snowflake conditions, just host a damn game, or play on iccup, or play on fish. No ones stopping you. Edit: Good post gypsy! I'm versatile enough to play any match up in the game. My point was that I prefer playing certain match ups over others. If you can't pick certain match ups in a ranked game, so be it. This is my opinion on the matter, as race picking has been allowed on every other server since this game came out. So were in agreement. It was allowed in every other context because the contexts were vastly different; they did not have automated match making. I prefer some matchups over others too, zvz is literally my least favorite matchup in the game. But I can play non zerg matchups through lobbies or private ladder.
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On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys.
In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why?
Here are a couple of things to consider:
How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other.
-> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP)
-> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever.
Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing.
Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue.
Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking.
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I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict.
I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors.
Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid.
Great stuff guys haha you got me.
as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all
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I did P vs T to avoid the T vs T mirror, but now I want to "main Toss" and play T vs Z instead of P vs Z. I do believe there shouldn't actually be a debate about this, it's just... I can't think of anyone else that does that, thus this thread title/subject. Testie ended up race picking in tournaments, though.
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On August 18 2017 07:15 Avi-Love wrote: What do you mean with "see korea"? Mu picking is 100% legal and always has been, the reason that only one person ever attempted it is because they consider it harder than just sticking to a single race.That one attempt also ended pretty horribly, to be fair.
can anyone confirm this? i was reading the liquipedia page on ret and it says race picking was not allowed.
"Ret used to offrace as Terran versus Zerg opponents, but just before moving to Korea he switched to ZvZ, as the Korean leagues do not allow race selection. "
also, under ret facts: "Played Terran when facing Zerg for a long time, but once he was invited to eSTRO he started playing ZvZ because of the Courage-tournament rules only allowing players to play one race."
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ret
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If you can only change your race for one MU, there is no queue problem I don't think? ladder's purpose is competitive practicing environment for all, tourneys or matches allow picking race.. or have lobby for race pick before game start..
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On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote:
as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all
I can tentatively agree to this.
Except
1) it's not good argumentation
2) it could just be hegemonic view of race-picking that is a product of the self-perpetuating view that mirror matchups are cancerous. -> how many people are convinced that zvz takes no skill and is pure coinflip? a lot because that's all you read on forums. What are new players that suck at that matchup and go to forums to read up on it going to learn? Cancer, luck-based = dodge.
1) & 2) go together a lot, 1) usually being the result of 2).
You're absolutely right my man, the paradigm case of race picking is to avoid mirrors. What's bad argumentation? Well we should disregard all these other forms of race-picking precisely because they aren't paradigm cases.
You don't have to convince me that maybe one day I'll read a blue post talking about how due to community feedback on mirror matchups being unfun and unexciting they're integrating race-picking within making, all while admitting to the design flaws of having 3 matchups that are seemingly unanimously agreed to as being unfun and cancer - great game design indeed.
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I think it'd be great to have race picking but I agree the practicalities of implementing it would be difficult.
While I think this is mostly an issue about mirrors, I know as someone who mostly plays Zerg, you get a little bored sometimes and want to play PvT/PvZ or TvP/TvZ. I'm sure it could be factored into the matchmaking algorithm but it would no doubt make it a lot more complicated which would just result in longer queue times for games.
Perhaps they could introduce a new option for creating ranked games: one where you go into a game room as per usual and people can pick their race before the game is started (think how old school Ladder games were created back in the very early days when the B.Net ladder was actually a thing).
And then you could have a "Quick match" option similar to how ranked games are created now and you just choose your race and map preferences and go from there.
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how about: "it's a game, it's supposed to be fun, let us play the matchups we find fun" as an argument?
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On August 18 2017 08:56 endy wrote: how about: "it's a game, it's supposed to be fun, let us play the matchups we find fun" as an argument?
how about "hey man you already can! lloololololololol xD. Find friends > host private lobbies > play whatever matchups you want :O"
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most tournament rules disallow racepicking, I'm fine with it tbh.
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Careful, somebody might report you for typing twitch emotes here, TL mods don't like that. Won't be me though.
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On August 18 2017 09:03 Garrl wrote: most tournament rules disallow racepicking, I'm fine with it tbh. Well TLS didn't, same with DT i think
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added poll to first page!
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On August 18 2017 09:03 Garrl wrote: most tournament rules disallow racepicking, I'm fine with it tbh.
Is this true though? I haven't played in any official tournaments in a very long time but race picking was always allowed. It was very common in the early OSL days for example where some MUs were considered much harder than others (and island maps were played in big tournaments).
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Savior played TvZ vs Gorush in MSL, and no foreign tournament has ever disallowed racepicking, people are just making stuff up, unfortunately.
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