What do you think of implementing an option to choose another mu rather than the mirror? I personally would enjoy ladder so much more if I could just play TvZ rather than ZvZ.
Mirrors in SC:R Ladder
Forum Index > Closed |
Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
What do you think of implementing an option to choose another mu rather than the mirror? I personally would enjoy ladder so much more if I could just play TvZ rather than ZvZ. | ||
Meta
United States6225 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 18 2017 00:39 Meta wrote: I do think that choosing matchups would be more interesting than merely choosing race. But then nobody would play ZvZ and random players would face long queues. If you pick a vsR race, it works? A lot of people still would pick z vs z no? However, it would require changing "per race MMR" to "per account" I guess. | ||
Demurity
United States424 Posts
Creating subsets of matchmaking just dilutes the system and muddles the player population. People will start requesting, "Why can't we have a ladder just for my Terran or just for my Zerg? Or why not just have a ladder for specific matchups?" (These have already emerged) Just stop. You should be thrown into the gauntlet of ladder and face your opponent as is. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
Going to be inflating everyone's MMR so much, as I have no idea how to wall in P vs Z and similar problems in T vs T. | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
The lack of MU picking and the removal of the 2 minute leave rule are to me personally the biggest issues currently in sc:r. (Currently, if you get matched against someone with severe lag, you are forced to play them, which is a complete pain in the ass). | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
Poll: Should you be allowed to avoid mirrors in match making? No (83) Yes (19) 102 total votes Your vote: Should you be allowed to avoid mirrors in match making? | ||
Chris_Havoc
United States583 Posts
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Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:19 Chris_Havoc wrote: One issue with this idea is that a player can simply choose their best matchup to climb the ladder. Is a player really that good if they stick to only one matchup? This would severely skew the leaderboard. i dont see how can anyone choose his best MU.. it is not like anyone is going to be dodging MUs. | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:23 Lopata wrote: i dont see how can anyone choose his best MU.. it is not like anyone is going to be dodging MUs. you are talking about avoiding mirrors which is by definition dodging a match up | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:28 jaeboss wrote: you are talking about avoiding mirrors which is by definition dodging a match up i mean no one is going to avoid playing vs certain race.. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
TvT is the greatest matchupp there is <3 | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:41 ROOTFayth wrote: I think they should allow people to pick a race and then pick a different race for the mirror match up of said race, would be great, I personally play PvP but It's quite a bit more boring than TvP or ZvP once again, how would the system decide which person gets to play their main race and which one gets to switch? | ||
onlystar
United States971 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:07 Avi-Love wrote: I think the best solution would be to have a chosen main race, and then have the option to choose a different race for the mirror. That way, if you are matched against a random, your "main race" is picked, and there won't be any conflict (although this way you can technically still get a mirror when you play against random, it is still infinitely better than the system currently in place). The lack of MU picking and the removal of the 2 minute leave rule are to me personally the biggest issues currently in sc:r. (Currently, if you get matched against someone with severe lag, you are forced to play them, which is a complete pain in the ass). this please.. if would encounter mirrors mu in 1v1 i will quit that game when it starts i do not wish to play mirror and nobody can force me to do so.. | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:42 jaeboss wrote: once again, how would the system decide which person gets to play their main race and which one gets to switch? just by random. I dont think it would matter for the players, they would be happy about not playing mirror.. | ||
HaN-
France1916 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:42 jaeboss wrote: once again, how would the system decide which person gets to play their main race and which one gets to switch? By not matching players who have checked mirror race pick option against each other. Or yeah by random would work actually. | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:47 HaN- wrote: By not matching players who have checked mirror race pick option against each other. that doesn't solve the problem. the system would still have to decide which person gets to play their main race and which person has the option of choosing their race. Lopata responded by saying it could be random. | ||
Lorch
Germany3657 Posts
You can still play custom games if you don't want to play your mirror matchup. I think the way it is atm is just fine, but then again I really don't mind playing mirrors. | ||
CruiseR
Poland3992 Posts
Right now I played like 15 ladder games, and on my current MMR I am beating P's and Z's with ease, while getting destroyed in TvT - a matchup which I tried to learn dozens of times in BW primetime, unsuccessfully. Not fun. | ||
CruiseR
Poland3992 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1388 Posts
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jaeboss
68 Posts
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CHEONSOYUN
492 Posts
if a terran player does not want to play mirror and play protoss vs terran instead and another terran player that wants to play zerg vs terran instead does that mean they both play protoss vs zerg or not match vs each other? this type of double blind situation just creates needless complexity and longer search time for game for the sake of lazy players | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20758647830 | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:59 CHEONSOYUN wrote: this is impractical because what if two players don't want to play a matchup? if a terran player does not want to play mirror and play protoss vs terran instead and another terran player that wants to play zerg vs terran instead does that mean they both play protoss vs zerg or not match vs each other? this type of double blind situation just creates needless complexity and longer search time for game for the sake of lazy players Just randomise it...? | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:59 CHEONSOYUN wrote: this is impractical because what if two players don't want to play a matchup? if a terran player does not want to play mirror and play protoss vs terran instead and another terran player that wants to play zerg vs terran instead does that mean they both play protoss vs zerg or not match vs each other? This is essentially the problem that I was asking. The way it could be solved would be that one of the Terran players would get to play their main race of Terran while the other Terran player would get to choose their race. I was asking how the system would decide who gets to switch races and people responded that it could be random. This would work but I think it is an inelegant solution. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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CHEONSOYUN
492 Posts
If players want to practice a certain matchup they should just make friends and play with them lol | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 02:13 CHEONSOYUN wrote: Yes but what happens if a terran who wishes to play tvp instead of tvt matches with a terran who has tvp vetoed? If players want to practice a certain matchup they should just make friends and play with them lol they are suggesting that the only match up you can veto is a mirror match up | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 02:13 CHEONSOYUN wrote: Yes but what happens if a terran who wishes to play tvp instead of tvt matches with a terran who has tvp vetoed? If players want to practice a certain matchup they should just make friends and play with them lol do you understand, that no one wants to veto matchups? or pick the best matchups? | ||
CHEONSOYUN
492 Posts
On August 18 2017 02:15 jaeboss wrote: they are suggesting that the only match up you can veto is a mirror match up why discriminate against mirrors? terran vs protoss is really pointless because it's boring and it's a pain to learn and on iccup i always just played zerg vs protoss instead how come i can't do this on matchmaking i was ranked ### there now i'm ranked ### here it's not my fault i just am now playing a matchup i don't want to play this is bullshit | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 02:15 Lopata wrote: do you understand, that no one wants to veto matchups? or pick the best matchups? i think he misunderstands what you want, but I think he raises an interesting point. if you are allowed to essentially veto a mirror match, what argument do you have against someone claiming they want to veto a different match up? | ||
FeSteeZy
Canada10 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:54 iFU.pauline wrote: nothing forces you to play mirror match you can always alt qq. See I always do that against Random dickhead that refuses to tell their race. Telling their race defeats the purpose of going random, which is still and has always been a part of this game. It's just a part of this game that you and many others aren't used to, as there aren't many random players. | ||
.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
Mirror matchups have always been a part of the game. Personally I find being able to play ZvZ is refreshing - EVERYONE just dodged that matchup before, I would get banned from games 90% of the time so I chose to racepick instead. | ||
KenNage
Chile884 Posts
Can't handle all the matchups? Well, you are not a well rounded player, deal with it. Don't want to play all the matchups? Don't play ranked games, you can create/join games, and, you know, practice there. | ||
FyRe_DragOn
Canada2049 Posts
My suggestion is that we should be able to select from our matchups as we currently do from maps, vetoing ones that we dont want to play until there are 3 left. When searching for opponents it would prioritize these matchups as it does maps, and you should also be able to select if you want this to be a hard veto, and same with the maps but thats another discussion. If im up against another racepicker with similar matchups, it will randomize ZvP or PvZ. If im up against someone who selected for example TvT, PvP and ZvZ, then I just wont be matched against them, same situation as if they had picked all the maps that I have vetoed. Also, Im glad blizzard got rid of the leaving b4 2mins = no loss thing. People who proxy or 4pool and then leave when it gets scouted before 2mins are pathetic, as are people who will just quit if they get an unfavorable matchup or opponent. | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 02:55 KenNage wrote: What? The ladder is fine as it is. Allowing to leave under the 2 minute mark is the same as allowing MU picking and map picking. Didn't get your ZvP on Outsider? Well... better dodge and waste everybody's time. Can't handle all the matchups? Well, you are not a well rounded player, deal with it. Don't want to play all the matchups? Don't play ranked games, you can create/join games, and, you know, practice there. pls dont comment, if you have zero knowledge about the problem... | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 03:00 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Ive always played ZvP PvZ PvT, now I cant play zvp anymore, which is incidentally my favorite matchup. The ladder isnt an accurate portrayal of skill If i have to play an off matchup, I would really like it if this could be changed. Its not that I hate pvp or mirrors, I just like zvp a lot more and am a lot better at it. My suggestion is that we should be able to select from our matchups as we currently do from maps, vetoing ones that we dont want to play until there are 3 left. When searching for opponents it would prioritize these matchups as it does maps, and you should also be able to select if you want this to be a hard veto, and same with the maps but thats another discussion. If im up against another racepicker with similar matchups, it will randomize ZvP or PvZ. If im up against someone who selected for example TvT, PvP and ZvZ, then I just wont be matched against them, same situation as if they had picked all the maps that I have vetoed. I'm with Dragon here. I also play ZvP instead of PvP about half of the time. I play for fun and playing PvP every time I play against a Protoss player isn't fun for me. | ||
Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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KenNage
Chile884 Posts
On August 18 2017 03:00 Lopata wrote: pls dont comment, if you have zero knowledge about the problem... There are no problems, you don't want to play mirrors, so, don't play ranked, simple as that. | ||
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:54 iFU.pauline wrote: nothing forces you to play mirror match you can always alt qq. See I always do that against Random dickhead that refuses to tell their race. Yeah I hate dickheads who don't give up the only edge they have for having to do three times the practice. And that's why all pros play random right, because it's so much better? | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 18 2017 03:08 KenNage wrote: There are no problems, you don't want to play mirrors, so, don't play ranked, simple as that. lol, yes there is a problem, just not to you, quite of bit of players have played like this for a long time, it's good and fun to be able to pick your 3 match ups | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 03:11 Ancestral wrote: Yeah I hate dickheads who don't give up the only edge they have for having to do three times the practice. And that's why all pros play random right, because it's so much better? Hahahaha! Well said sir. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:50 Lorch wrote: I never understood why people were so anti mirror matchup in bw. You can still play custom games if you don't want to play your mirror matchup. I think the way it is atm is just fine, but then again I really don't mind playing mirrors. Seconded. If it's about having fun and enjoying the game, play customs with friends...or just play a different race on ladder occasionally. I understand that the ladder in BW is significantly different than every other game because you always had a lobby to race pick...maybe a better implementation would be to put the players in a lobby with a 10-20 second timer and allow them to choose their race. I think vetoing specific matchups is ridiculous and would only fuck up the matchmaking. On August 18 2017 00:59 playa wrote: Please, god. But with all of the bugs they have... I always assume it's impossible to program anything. Playing vs random is a joke in this game, too. Have big maps in map pool, scout last, and congratulate your opponent on picking random. My kind of game. Going to be inflating everyone's MMR so much, as I have no idea how to wall in P vs Z and similar problems in T vs T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_Fast_Expand_Forge_Walling Short version for Terran: rax on bot, supply depot on top (I believe Academy works the same way as rax). Any wall square-tight will keep out vultures. | ||
KameZerg
Sweden1736 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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KenNage
Chile884 Posts
On August 18 2017 03:14 ProMeTheus112 wrote: lol, yes there is a problem, just not to you, quite of bit of players have played like this for a long time, it's good and fun to be able to pick your 3 match ups You don't seem to understand the difference, you could do that when the games were manually created, you didn't like the MU you got? Dodge, it's all fine. Anyone playing BW at the time knew you would play like 1 game every 2 hours anyways. You can't allow leaving under the 2 minute mark in the current automated system and race picking would just increase the Queues and annoy people. I just want to play the damn game without spending an entire afternoon looking for games, that's all I care. | ||
FyRe_DragOn
Canada2049 Posts
My suggestion is a system where you select 1 race vs protoss, 1 race vs terran, 1 race vs zerg, and 1 race vs random. For example If im playing ZvP PvZ PvT, and my opponent plays similar matchups to me, we would randomize either ZvP or PvZ. If i face some1 who plays none of the matchups ive selected, such as a ZvZ PvP TvT user, I have 2 suggestions. Either dont match at all, or we would both play the race we had selected vs random, meaning the 1 race vs R would also be a (race vs non matched racepickers) situation as well. | ||
ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
I guess there's the issue of reducing the frequency of getting a mirror match up when you want one but I think it's safe to say the majority of people find mirror match ups to not be as fun | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:01 ROOTFayth wrote: I dunno to me it's pretty simple, you pick a race then you choose if you want to play the mirror match up of that race or not and you randomize it against other people who won't play the mirror either so nobody gains any sort of advantage and everybody's happy I guess there's the issue of reducing the frequency of getting a mirror match up when you want one but I think it's safe to say the majority of people find mirror match ups to not be as fun Now I'd love to see the statistics for this because I honestly doubt this is true. | ||
Autumn22
26 Posts
1/3 of the game is mirror matchups, that's what Brood War is. If you'd like a modified game, feel free to setup whatever arbitrary rules/conditions you want in a non-ladder match. But I expect that when I'm playing the official ladder of Brood War that I will be playing the real Brood War, not some awkward ad-hoc system where people can arbitrarily dodge 1/3 of the game. I would be very upset if they bastardized the ladder with this option. It taints the point system, simplifies the game, and would obviously be unworkable with random players (oh hey I'm Terran and have turned off mirrors, I can now infer my random opponent is P or Z. Oh hey I'm random, I wonder if my opponent turned off mirrors and know already ruled out I'm not Terran, who knows!) No no no. Thankfully this will NEVER happen so the discussion is moot. | ||
ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:02 Qikz wrote: Now I'd love to see the statistics for this because I honestly doubt this is true. Well I obviously don't have any statistics but I have rarely seen somebody saying their favorite match up was the mirror one | ||
FyRe_DragOn
Canada2049 Posts
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20758647830 | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:06 ROOTFayth wrote: Well I obviously don't have any statistics but I have rarely seen somebody saying their favorite match up was the mirror one There's a difference between not liking mirrors and wanting a ladder system that allows you to avoid them. I hate mirrors but I am strongly against being able to avoid them in match making. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:02 Autumn22 wrote: I strongly oppose this idea and feel it harms the legitimacy of the ladder. 1/3 of the game is mirror matchups, that's what Brood War is. If you'd like a modified game, feel free to setup whatever arbitrary rules/conditions you want in a non-ladder match. But I expect that when I'm playing the official ladder of Brood War that I will be playing the real Brood War, not some awkward ad-hoc system where people can arbitrarily dodge 1/3 of the game. I would be very upset if they bastardized the ladder with this option. It taints the point system, simplifies the game, and would obviously be unworkable with random players (oh hey I'm Terran and have turned off mirrors, I can now infer my random opponent is P or Z. Oh hey I'm random, I wonder if my opponent turned off mirrors and know already ruled out I'm not Terran, who knows!) No no no. Thankfully this will NEVER happen so the discussion is moot. You can race pick in most tournaments. Since when was the ladder some untouched innocent virgin, of pristineness? Have you ever played iccup? Yeah, you could race pick there, just like any other BW ladder ever. Number of complaints? Zero. However, you often will play games and not even know what race you're playing against until you're already set on your opener and building position. Scouting with your first worker won't even allow you to have things proper. That's a joke, and I don't care what any of you say. A lot more of a joke than allowing race picking, that's for sure. I'm actually trying to learn a mirror now. I just want to T vs Z instead of P vs Z. Why make people waste years of practice due to lazy programmers? | ||
ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:13 ROOTFayth wrote: playa you seem to have big issues with random but you know you can just find an overall safe build vs all 3 races right? I'm pretty sure my winrate vs random players is very very high The only reason anyone would have a high win rate vs random is due to being a lot better than the other guy. Congratulations on that, though. Too bad there aren't more Testies to force this long overdue change. I'd rather play vs hackers. | ||
FyRe_DragOn
Canada2049 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:17 playa wrote: The only reason anyone would have a high win rate vs random is due to being a lot better than the other guy. Congratulations on that, though. Too bad there aren't more Testies to force this long overdue change. I'd rather play vs hackers. I mean most random players aren't that good. All you have to do is play a safe build order and you'll beat most randoms. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:20 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree that playing vs random is bullshit, especially on certain maps, but I doubt blizzard will remove random, so the best I can hope for this that they will show what race they actually are in the countdown. Removing random makes no sense. | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
also i support racepicking mirrors on ladder, it's what every ladder system for the last 20 years of bw has let you do and i don't see any compelling reason to change it now | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:20 blade55555 wrote: I mean most random players aren't that good. All you have to do is play a safe build order and you'll beat most randoms. You obviously haven't encountered any good random players. There are only about 5-6 random players that play ALL races at a high level anyways, so playing against random shouldn't really be an issue. | ||
Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
TvT is usually decided by tactics or build order gambles, not because you misclicked your reaver or didn't dodge a scourge. That's why people like to compare TvT to chess. | ||
arb
Noobville17915 Posts
Only been one well known player who played ZvP TvZ PvT anyway im pretty sure | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
I don't understand why they couldn't just announce the race of the random player though. Like play random if you want but getting an unfair advantage like that has always been annoying. | ||
ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:31 Valikyr wrote: I don't understand why they couldn't just announce the race of the random player though. Like play random if you want but getting an unfair advantage like that has always been annoying. That would defeat the purpose of playing random in the first place. Most random players play random because they enjoy playing all races and want the added surprise factor for learning ALL races. I think it's more than fair to allow someone who can play all races at the same level to have a slight advantage over the player who plays strictly one race. I really wish some of the older players who have been playing the same race forever would venture into playing random. It's so much fun at a high level. | ||
shall_burn
252 Posts
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Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:37 EndingLife wrote: That would defeat the purpose of playing random in the first place. Random players play random because they enjoy playing all races and want the added surprise factor for learning ALL races at a high level. I think it's more than fair to allow someone who can play all races at the same level to have a slight advantage over the player who plays strictly one race. I disagree. I only play random because it's fun, not because I want an advantage. On the other side, being the person who chose a race but has to play against a random makes the game boring because you are limited to one safe build. Random should not mean unknown. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:36 ROOTFayth wrote: how is it an advantage if you need 3 times as much practice to reach the same level That is such a lame saying. It's only seems hard to us cause we haven't bothered to try. For anyone who plays both sides of a matchup, they know how much easier it is to learn when they already know the other side. Playing random, their rate of improvement is going to be way higher, even if they practice "x" matchup less. And a lot of people aren't even practicing anything... they're just doing an abusive cheese build in each matchup to exploit the fact you don't even know what race you're playing against, much less what they're doing. It's like Crank in SC 2. He would go random, and anytime he got Toss, he would proxy 2 gate. EVERY GAME. There is absolutely nothing you can do vs that, without knowing their race. If random players want to feel so special, give them a special badge/avatar to remind them how noble and cool they are. Maybe something that says "your moms loves you." Also, random players "always" play against an opponent, while knowing their race. On the other hand, you have some bs builds vs random that you use every now and then. You're getting way less practice than they are in a sense. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:55 EndingLife wrote: Easy solution. Play Random! Easy solution: start hacking. When you think something is morally wrong... you kinda don't... Might be a new concept for you or something you haven't experienced, though. I remember at Blizzcon or w/e event it was where Testie or some random player was at. All of the Korean pros opted to use one of their first workers to scout with. Nice life. I'm going to propose my opponents need to use their toes to play. | ||
KenNage
Chile884 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:58 playa wrote: Easy solution: start hacking. When you think something is morally wrong... you kinda don't... Might be a new concept for you or something you haven't experienced, though. What? Git gud and stop whining. | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:07 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I dont believe race picking is solely about avoiding mirror matchups, its about picking the matchups that fit you best. I know people who want to do more mirrors instead of less, although they are statistically less common. And the suggestion I posted earlier would allow for either type of person, and not mess with the integrity of the ladder. I encourage every1 to post in the bnet forum if they care about this issue. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20758647830 Interesting distribution of votes on that thread lol | ||
Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
Easy solution: start hacking. When you think something is morally wrong... you kinda don't... Might be a new concept for you or something you haven't experienced, though. :D Picking random is morally wrong. I guess someone is really salty because of a couple of losses to random. | ||
sethlin
United States8 Posts
How would that work? Let's say we are both Zerg players but each of us choose Terran in the case of a mirror. How does the system decide which one of us is going to play TvZ and which one of us is going to play ZvT? this is impractical because what if two players don't want to play a matchup? if a terran player does not want to play mirror and play protoss vs terran instead and another terran player that wants to play zerg vs terran instead does that mean they both play protoss vs zerg or not match vs each other? this type of double blind situation just creates needless complexity and longer search time for game for the sake of lazy players Coin flip basically, non-issue IMO. It will not inflate queue times, all that would need to happen is RNG chooses one to play the off-race, why would it have both play off-race? | ||
psd
France91 Posts
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:36 ROOTFayth wrote: how is it an advantage if you need 3 times as much practice to reach the same level You don't need 3 times as much practice as the skills overlap but you kind of play random because you want the challenge right? Not to get an information advantage each game I suspect? So why not just show what race the random player got? | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 05:32 psd wrote: I'm more concern with random being allowed, give free advantage to one player. Random has been allowed since 1998. If it gave a player that much of an advantage, more than 1% of the BW population would play random. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 05:37 EndingLife wrote: Random has been allowed since 1998. If it gave a player that much of an advantage, more than 1% of the BW population would play random. Or they'd be smart enough to realize it's only tolerated because it's a "noob problem." If double Zerg can be banned in pro 2's, I'm sure random can be, too. At least in its current state. Win or lose, it's a horrible experience and waste of time. I'd rather them just give random an auto win, but give them fewer points. I'd gladly insta leave for less loss. | ||
Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:02 Autumn22 wrote: I strongly oppose this idea and feel it harms the legitimacy of the ladder. 1/3 of the game is mirror matchups, that's what Brood War is. If you'd like a modified game, feel free to setup whatever arbitrary rules/conditions you want in a non-ladder match. But I expect that when I'm playing the official ladder of Brood War that I will be playing the real Brood War, not some awkward ad-hoc system where people can arbitrarily dodge 1/3 of the game. I would be very upset if they bastardized the ladder with this option. It taints the point system, simplifies the game, and would obviously be unworkable with random players (oh hey I'm Terran and have turned off mirrors, I can now infer my random opponent is P or Z. Oh hey I'm random, I wonder if my opponent turned off mirrors and know already ruled out I'm not Terran, who knows!) No no no. Thankfully this will NEVER happen so the discussion is moot. Surely this is a bad troll attempt right? You realise that every single ladder and every single tournament I've watched or played during the entire history of Brood war allowed mu picking right? Allowing players to dodge mirrors has been "what Brood war is". Furthermore, it seems fairly self evident that the majority of players AND spectators find mirror matchups to be less interesting - just take a glance at all of the sponsored afreeca matches, it's quite overwhelming. | ||
.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
Personally, to be a complete player I think you have to be good at playing vs all three races. You can't just be good vs 2/3 of the player population and feel satisfied with being a bw player, i.e. you literally can't play vs 1/3 of the population. Point being obviously you aren't a complete starcraft player if you can't play against all three races. Race picking just seems contrived or a roundabout way to getting there. Why? because of situations where you have 2 race pickers: I mean imagine a situation where 2 zergs play and they both TvZ. They're both really good at TvZ, but both players' ZvT is significantly worse to their TvZ. Ideally they would both want to play TvZ vs one another, and certainly whoever got to TvZ would win their series 90% of the time or something like that. How do we get there? coin-flip for who gets to play the matchup? At the end of the day who is satisfied with the result? Neither I don't think, the one who TvZ'd certainly knows he would've lost ZvT, and the one who ZvT'd certainly knows he would've won had he played TvZ. This type of scenario is why race picking to me doesn't seem as organic as simply playing one race. We haven't encountered this too much in the foreign scene because 1) there was no real 'professional' competition - who would care about losing a clanwar or nationwar game because of the above? 2) in the case of when there were real tournaments, e.g. TSL or WCG, there were basically no race pickers, at least obviously not enough for situations like the above to regularly occur. But more or less the competition just wasn't cutthroat enough for the above situation to really matter. By contrast, in Korea, this certainly was not the case, but hey guess what race picking was banned. Anyway I myself played Z/TvZ back before SC2 came out, but I just don't understand the obsession over race picking in this thread. Personally I don't think it belongs in matchmaking. Why? It's just too contrived and inorganic. I mean you guys are talking about PLAY X RACE BUT ALLOW PEOPLE TO CHOOSE NON MIRROR MATCHUPS. What if I wanna play ZvZ, ZvT but TvP instead? Or what if I want to play ZvT PvZ TvP, should there not be options for that, or should we discriminate solely based on mirror matchups? - that seems like an arbitrary line to draw. What if it's just a system where you choose 3 matchups out of the 9 and queue up. How would the UI look? CHOOSE 3: ZvZ TvZ PvZ ZvT TvT PvT ZvP TvP PvP What if I want to ONLY PLAY vs Terran (I pick ZvT, TvT, PvT) What if I want to play more than 3 matchups? Should there be a requirement that you only play 3 matchups? Should there be a further requirement like you can only pick one from 1 row so that you end up with matchups that can cover all three races? Like I said it's just so contrived, inorganic, and especially alienating to anyone trying to get into SC:R for the first time. It's matchmaking, it's automated, stick to one race friends. Just to add: Like just think about how to implement it from a design perspective, then also think about what kind of rational you're using to discriminate between the different competing systems and think about how you could justify that to the community? Also what about rating issues and shit like that. Anyway people crying about this whole race picking seem to lack perspective. | ||
CHEONSOYUN
492 Posts
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Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
sure there was that one time savior tvz'd gorush but that's an unrelated instance to the kinds of issues I'm talking about. (in that case it was more about the entertainment value of it than anything - they also both agreed to it. actually avi-love that statement just most likely is inaccurate. I'm guessing that, in actuality, the official starleague or proleague rules must've stipulated that both players submit their race beforehand irrespective of what the other player's choice was. Surely a player could not submit something like Z/TvZ, because, again, what if that player's opponent submitted Z/TvZ as well? What system would we use to discriminating who got to play what matchup in cases where both players could not arrive to a consensus on what matchup to play? | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
If people can accept that I could say I'm a woman, on a whim, then... maybe one day people could accept I want to play Terran vs Zerg. I know it's far out there and like totally 5% complete player and an insult to the game and human decency, but... let a kid dream big. | ||
.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
See if you carefully look at what I'm saying, according to my definition of a 'complete' player, being a complete player is not mutually exclusive with being a race picker. Perhaps 'complete' wasn't the best term to use, considering the many connotations it may have - in this case it might come off as a type of elitism. Perhaps 'competitive' is a better term. But all I meant is that, for a player to be a 'complete' - 'competitive' - starcraft player, they should be capable of playing versus all other players, not just 2/3 of the population. For example, jim tod and bob, my friends, also play starcraft. I play a lot vs jim and tod, but I refuse to play vs bob because I don't like playing X matchup. We're both starcraft players but I will NEVER play bob, EVER, because I just can't/refuse to. Can I consider myself competitive? No because there exists a set of players (in this case bob) that I can never compete against. I argue that there are shortcomings with race picking in a 'professionally competitive' world, or in a world with matchmaking. Race picking is fine man. Anyone can play what they enjoy playing. I have played a ridiculous amount of TvZ, PvZ, and even TvP and PvT. I NEVER play TvT or PvP, because I just don't want to (though I'm sure at some point I might! hehe) | ||
Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On August 18 2017 07:07 .gypsy wrote: Personally, to be a complete player I think you have to be good at playing vs all three races. You can't just be good vs 2/3 of the player population and feel satisfied with being a bw player, i.e. you literally can't play vs 1/3 of the population. Point being obviously you aren't a complete starcraft player if you can't play against all three races. Race picking just seems contrived or a roundabout way to getting there. Why? because of situations where you have 2 race pickers: I mean imagine a situation where 2 zergs play and they both TvZ. They're both really good at TvZ, but both players' ZvT is significantly worse to their TvZ. Ideally they would both want to play TvZ vs one another, and certainly whoever got to TvZ would win their series 90% of the time or something like that. How do we get there? coin-flip for who gets to play the matchup? At the end of the day who is satisfied with the result? Neither I don't think, the one who TvZ'd certainly knows he would've lost ZvT, and the one who ZvT'd certainly knows he would've won had he played TvZ. 1. No one is discussing not playing against a race, just being able to avoid the mirror. E.g. You will still play against zerg, but play Terran yourself, instead your "main" Z race. Still playing against all 3 races. 2. In the case of two racepickers of the same race , coinflip would be a good solution. Both players won't mind playing either side of the matchup anyway. There won't be that many cases though, and even if there were, players would get each race around 50% of the time making it fair for everyone | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 18 2017 05:45 playa wrote: Randoms have to learn way more match ups than you, which is why most random players play cheesily. Play a safe build, scout early, and crush them. If you cant do that you deserved to lose. Same with mirrors. If you want to be a bitch and dodge and leave games, go right ahead. Cry all day and cry all night on these forums, you know what you are, and so do your opponents. Or they'd be smart enough to realize it's only tolerated because it's a "noob problem." If double Zerg can be banned in pro 2's, I'm sure random can be, too. At least in its current state. Win or lose, it's a horrible experience and waste of time. I'd rather them just give random an auto win, but give them fewer points. I'd gladly insta leave for less loss. Coming from someone who hates zvz and has played like 10 games of it in the last seven years. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
Since I've been playing this game off and on since 1998, some match ups have become stale and boring to me. I'm a Protoss main player but play Random most of the time, as that's what I find to be fun. After all, I play this game to have fun. I have no problem playing mirror match ups, I just find them to be boring, stale and stagnant. So why is it an issue that Instead of playing PvP, I'd like to play ZvP? In order for me to play ZvP in a ranked game now, I'd have to hope to get matched with a Protoss player while playing Zerg, right? A reasonable solution would be to allow players to choose their race in the game lobby instead of forcing you to choose your race without even knowing the map that you're going to play on. What about players who avoid playing a certain race on certain maps? It's not so much about avoiding mirror match ups for me, it's more about having the freedom to play what race you want against your opponents. I remember joining many games on iccup where my opponent had random chosen. They would wait for you to choose your race and they would choose theirs accordingly. Sometimes I'd be an ass and tell them, "Your race"? If they refused to choose, I'd usually say go Random vs Random, which quickly prompted in a ban. There's quite a few players who play specific match ups... I know Dragon and myself aren't the only players who CAN play mirror match ups, but love to play other match ups as well. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
While conflicts can happen, it's pretty rare. At the end of the day, people who have refused to play a matchup are still probably better at it than most. Like in tournaments, if someone picked random you'd just pick a race and win cause better, regardless of mu outcome. | ||
.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why? Here are a couple of things to consider: How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other. -> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP) -> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever. Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing. Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue. Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking. ------ I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict. I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors. Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid. Great stuff guys haha you got me. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
It's not so much about avoiding mirror match ups for me, it's more about having the freedom to play what race you want against your opponents You have that freedom. You can race dodge, you can play only certain maps and avoid 99% of the experiences broodwar has to offer, hell, you can even play people far worse than you. Dont play on this ladder, play on a private ladder, or leave games when things go unfavourably to you. No ones forcing you to do anything. These rules exist for a reason, it simplifies the searching, it simplifies ELO, especially for people who are playing at a skill rank or and time where there is a smaller player pool. How well would auto match making work if we allowed for a thousand different preconditions? I play zvz but not on x map, where I also dont play zvp. but I play zvp on y and z, but tvt on map AB only, and on and on. If you want your little special snowflake conditions, just host a damn game, or play on iccup, or play on fish. No ones stopping you. Edit: Good post gypsy! | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 08:25 Dazed. wrote: You have that freedom. You can race dodge, you can play only certain maps and avoid 99% of the experiences broodwar has to offer, hell, you can even play people far worse than you. Dont play on this ladder, play on a private ladder, or leave games when things go unfavourably to you. No ones forcing you to do anything. These rules exist for a reason, it simplifies the searching, it simplifies ELO, especially for people who are playing at a skill rank or and time where there is a smaller player pool. How well would auto match making work if we allowed for a thousand different preconditions? I play zvz but not on x map, where I also dont play zvp. but I play zvp on y and z, but tvt on map AB only, and on and on. If you want your little special snowflake conditions, just host a damn game, or play on iccup, or play on fish. No ones stopping you. Edit: Good post gypsy! I'm versatile enough to play any match up in the game. My point was that I prefer playing certain match ups over others. If you can't pick certain match ups in a ranked game, so be it. This is my opinion on the matter, as race picking has been allowed on every other server since this game came out. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 18 2017 08:34 EndingLife wrote: So were in agreement. It was allowed in every other context because the contexts were vastly different; they did not have automated match making. I prefer some matchups over others too, zvz is literally my least favorite matchup in the game. But I can play non zerg matchups through lobbies or private ladder. I'm versatile enough to play any match up in the game. My point was that I prefer playing certain match ups over others. If you can't pick certain match ups in a ranked game, so be it. This is my opinion on the matter, as race picking has been allowed on every other server since this game came out. | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys. In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why? Here are a couple of things to consider: How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other. -> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP) -> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever. Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing. Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue. Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking. ------ I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict. I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors. Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid. Great stuff guys haha you got me. as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
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jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 07:15 Avi-Love wrote: What do you mean with "see korea"? Mu picking is 100% legal and always has been, the reason that only one person ever attempted it is because they consider it harder than just sticking to a single race.That one attempt also ended pretty horribly, to be fair. can anyone confirm this? i was reading the liquipedia page on ret and it says race picking was not allowed. "Ret used to offrace as Terran versus Zerg opponents, but just before moving to Korea he switched to ZvZ, as the Korean leagues do not allow race selection. " also, under ret facts: "Played Terran when facing Zerg for a long time, but once he was invited to eSTRO he started playing ZvZ because of the Courage-tournament rules only allowing players to play one race." http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ret | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote: as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all I can tentatively agree to this. Except 1) it's not good argumentation 2) it could just be hegemonic view of race-picking that is a product of the self-perpetuating view that mirror matchups are cancerous. -> how many people are convinced that zvz takes no skill and is pure coinflip? a lot because that's all you read on forums. What are new players that suck at that matchup and go to forums to read up on it going to learn? Cancer, luck-based = dodge. 1) & 2) go together a lot, 1) usually being the result of 2). You're absolutely right my man, the paradigm case of race picking is to avoid mirrors. What's bad argumentation? Well we should disregard all these other forms of race-picking precisely because they aren't paradigm cases. You don't have to convince me that maybe one day I'll read a blue post talking about how due to community feedback on mirror matchups being unfun and unexciting they're integrating race-picking within making, all while admitting to the design flaws of having 3 matchups that are seemingly unanimously agreed to as being unfun and cancer - great game design indeed. | ||
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
While I think this is mostly an issue about mirrors, I know as someone who mostly plays Zerg, you get a little bored sometimes and want to play PvT/PvZ or TvP/TvZ. I'm sure it could be factored into the matchmaking algorithm but it would no doubt make it a lot more complicated which would just result in longer queue times for games. Perhaps they could introduce a new option for creating ranked games: one where you go into a game room as per usual and people can pick their race before the game is started (think how old school Ladder games were created back in the very early days when the B.Net ladder was actually a thing). And then you could have a "Quick match" option similar to how ranked games are created now and you just choose your race and map preferences and go from there. | ||
endy
Switzerland8966 Posts
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
On August 18 2017 08:56 endy wrote: how about: "it's a game, it's supposed to be fun, let us play the matchups we find fun" as an argument? how about "hey man you already can! lloololololololol xD. Find friends > host private lobbies > play whatever matchups you want :O" | ||
Garrl
Scotland1957 Posts
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riotjune
United States3357 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
On August 18 2017 09:03 Garrl wrote: most tournament rules disallow racepicking, I'm fine with it tbh. Well TLS didn't, same with DT i think | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
On August 18 2017 09:03 Garrl wrote: most tournament rules disallow racepicking, I'm fine with it tbh. Is this true though? I haven't played in any official tournaments in a very long time but race picking was always allowed. It was very common in the early OSL days for example where some MUs were considered much harder than others (and island maps were played in big tournaments). | ||
Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues. As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote: You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors.as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all On August 18 2017 09:45 RowdierBob wrote: Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter.I think the Korean league did change the race picking rules at some point. It was very common for a while, particularly with dumb maps like Paradoxx. I'm pretty sure Joyo for example played PvT, TvP, TvZ. Chojja would play Terran on Paradoxx. I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues. As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. | ||
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:39 RowdierBob wrote: Yes, it wont be available on a ladder, which has particular conditions and stresses relative to what that ladder is and how it functions, which is clearly separatable from a professional league and its conditions. Not related. If blizzard were banning people for 'race picking' in private lobbies with weeks of foreknowledge in who were going to play who, youd have a point.I think it does. There is a strong culture of race picking in the BW community that dates back to the very early days. It's an important part of the game for many people that now won't be available in the new ladder. | ||
Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:52 Dazed. wrote: Yes, it wont be available on a ladder, which has particular conditions and stresses relative to what that ladder is and how it functions, which is clearly separatable from a professional league and its conditions. Not related. If blizzard were banning people for 'race picking' in private lobbies with weeks of foreknowledge in who were going to play who, youd have a point. The issue is that, as Avi-Love says, race picking has always been part of competitive BW. Blizzard is positioning the ladder as one of the key competitive elements of the new game, which will be a significant change for many competitive players. I accept there are technical barriers that probably won't make it possible but Blizzard should explore the possibilities of allowing it. Race picking is a key part of how the game is played at all levels and shouldn't be so easily dismissed. | ||
Garrl
Scotland1957 Posts
On August 18 2017 09:24 RowdierBob wrote: Is this true though? I haven't played in any official tournaments in a very long time but race picking was always allowed. It was very common in the early OSL days for example where some MUs were considered much harder than others (and island maps were played in big tournaments). well, OSL/MSL etc banned it later on, when Ret went to Korea he had to stop racepicking TvZ because it wasn't allowed in the rules, at least for courage. | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:37 Dazed. wrote: You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors. Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter. can you show me any pro foreign or korean who racepicked anything other than mirror? maybe testie and some random pros in 1999? | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 12:57 rauk wrote: can you show me any pro foreign or korean who racepicked anything other than mirror? maybe testie and some random pros in 1999? Very easy - PJ until he went to SKT and switched to P only... can't quite recall if he played PvT PvP TvZ or PvT ZvP TvZ? Protoss players picking TvZ or ZvP were not that rare at all... I think Trek also did something like that. That being said, it should definitely be allowed. There is no reasonable argument for why it would be difficult to have a PvZ PvT PvR TvP ... matchup selection option, and anytime you run into matchup conflict you default both to their vs random race. There's nothing preventing you from picking TvZ over ZvZ in most tournaments, so why it's somehow less 'pure' is beyond me. | ||
GTR
51135 Posts
Also KeSPA had a rule where if you wanted to change race for a match you had to give a weeks notice (Savior vs Gorush in 2007) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/53356-savior-will-use-terran-on-26ths-msl-game | ||
heyitsMiro
83 Posts
On August 18 2017 11:09 Garrl wrote: well, OSL/MSL etc banned it later on, when Ret went to Korea he had to stop racepicking TvZ because it wasn't allowed in the rules, at least for courage. Team coaches banned it. You could still race pick but had to give notice of one week prior to your games. | ||
SlammerIV
United States526 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 14:32 SlammerIV wrote: Honestly I love that ladder forces you to play all matchups. I would always get kicked from lobbies if I tried to play zvz. But now you would get to play zvz against every pure zerg user and never get kicked while the people who play TvZ instead of ZvZ you'd never even know they did, would just show up as terran users for you. There's like no downside -.- | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13017 Posts
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Frauenarzt
Germany22 Posts
but i think if u want some kind of advantage u could pick pvt zvp tvz and set map votings to get a lot of nostalgia games | ||
elKa-ThE-FeArEd
Sweden174 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:07 Avi-Love wrote: I think the best solution would be to have a chosen main race, and then have the option to choose a different race for the mirror. That way, if you are matched against a random, your "main race" is picked, and there won't be any conflict (although this way you can technically still get a mirror when you play against random, it is still infinitely better than the system currently in place). The lack of MU picking and the removal of the 2 minute leave rule are to me personally the biggest issues currently in sc:r. (Currently, if you get matched against someone with severe lag, you are forced to play them, which is a complete pain in the ass). Wait they removed the 2min rule?? I agree totally with switching race, nothings more boring than mirror mu's. If they won't add any option to switch race i will just stick to random i guess | ||
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On August 18 2017 00:35 Espers wrote: Some people are already talking about this, but race-picking has always been a part of BW and with the new ladder it's not a thing anymore. Historically mirrors have always been the least liked/played matchups. What do you think of implementing an option to choose another mu rather than the mirror? I personally would enjoy ladder so much more if I could just play TvZ rather than ZvZ. no because maybe the enemy is rly good at zvz but hates zvt so he want to play pvt and so on ,... Also my pvp is fantastic if people would leave without lose first minute i would rly get pissed | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:40 Dante08 wrote: Glad to know I'm not the only one avoiding TvT. Been avoiding TvT all my years of playing BW and out of 10 ladder games I get 7 TvTs. Guess I just have to learn it now. Why have you been avoiding it? It's easily the most strategic and interesting matchup :/ | ||
Storchen
Sweden4385 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9655 Posts
On August 18 2017 18:31 Qikz wrote: Why have you been avoiding it? It's easily the most strategic and interesting matchup :/ Because if I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess. Not starcraft. There is literally no argument to say why Race picking cannot be implemented. It was there for iccup and fish which most of us have played already. "forcing someone to learn the mirror" is a shitty argument. Someone doesn't want to learn the mirror, that's their choice. In tournaments, unless the rules are banning race picking, people can choose their race in a custom lobby. As for laddering concerns, it literally would not lengthen ladder queues at all. Say I have TvP/Z and PvT. Someone else has PvT/Z and TvP. Great, our main races are Terran and Protoss respectively, I would be T, they would be P. Simple. What if two TvZ/P and PvT players were matched with each other? Who would play Terran and who would play Protoss, seeing as how both are Terran mains with Protoss race picked? 50/50 coin flip. The system checks who race picked what, sees that their mains are both Terran and both opt for the PvT pick, and flips a coin to see who ladders as the Terran and Protoss. Simple, literally .1 second of computer computation to make the decision and place each as their respective race. To those people who will complain they won't play anymore mirrors and that mirrors are their best matchup, bro, what percentage of players actually dodge the mirror by race picking? Well under 50%. Considering the poll on page one, if we go by those statistics, 1/6 players race pick. That's hardly that many players who you can't play a mirror with. On August 18 2017 19:03 Storchen wrote: Feels like I'm playing 70% PvP in my bracket (the low one). I'm really not complaining tho. Mirrors are a part of the ladder and should be. You have to be able to play all the matchups to climb the ladder imo. In what world do you need to play a mirror to climb a ladder? You need to learn how to play against all 3 races (4 technically with Random). If I'm race picking TvZ/P and PvT, I'm still playing against Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. How am I not learning how to play against every race and climbing the ladder by playing every race if I'm race picking? | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:04 FlaShFTW wrote: Because if I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess. Not starcraft. There is literally no argument to say why Race picking cannot be implemented. It was there for iccup and fish which most of us have played already. "forcing someone to learn the mirror" is a shitty argument. Someone doesn't want to learn the mirror, that's their choice. In tournaments, unless the rules are banning race picking, people can choose their race in a custom lobby. As for laddering concerns, it literally would not lengthen ladder queues at all. Say I have TvP/Z and PvT. Someone else has PvT/Z and TvP. Great, our main races are Terran and Protoss respectively, I would be T, they would be P. Simple. What if two TvZ/P and PvT players were matched with each other? Who would play Terran and who would play Protoss, seeing as how both are Terran mains with Protoss race picked? 50/50 coin flip. The system checks who race picked what, sees that their mains are both Terran and both opt for the PvT pick, and flips a coin to see who ladders as the Terran and Protoss. Simple, literally .1 second of computer computation to make the decision and place each as their respective race. To those people who will complain they won't play anymore mirrors and that mirrors are their best matchup, bro, what percentage of players actually dodge the mirror by race picking? Well under 50%. Considering the poll on page one, if we go by those statistics, 1/6 players race pick. That's hardly that many players who you can't play a mirror with. In what world do you need to play a mirror to climb a ladder? You need to learn how to play against all 3 races (4 technically with Random). If I'm race picking TvZ/P and PvT, I'm still playing against Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. How am I not learning how to play against every race and climbing the ladder by playing every race if I'm race picking? my words.. best post so far | ||
quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
I agree. Most of my losses are ZvZ. It's ridiculous, I always play TvZ. Now I might switch to Terran because of it, even though my TvP is really rusty right now. I just don't want to play a coin flip BO rock-paper-scissors, and 1 missclick loss matchup. If I wanted that, I'd play SC2. I'm fine with TvT, and even PvP (even though PvP is kinda similar to ZvZ but not so bad, also BO advantages and boring goon/reaver all the time). For fuck's sake, even progamers can racepick in official matches if they want. The reason we don't have it, is that they're lazy, and think they know better than us. | ||
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3958 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:31 quirinus wrote: I just don't want to play a coin flip BO rock-paper-scissors, and 1 missclick loss matchup. If I wanted that, I'd play SC2. i see what you did there. im also a fan of zvt/zvp/tvz race picking. However for me it was because i live tvz/zvt a lot and i never have time to learn to mirror properly. I dont think mirrors are bad though. | ||
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
Also random/playing random is completely fine. | ||
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On August 18 2017 13:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Very easy - PJ until he went to SKT and switched to P only... can't quite recall if he played PvT PvP TvZ or PvT ZvP TvZ? Protoss players picking TvZ or ZvP were not that rare at all... I think Trek also did something like that. That being said, it should definitely be allowed. There is no reasonable argument for why it would be difficult to have a PvZ PvT PvR TvP ... matchup selection option, and anytime you run into matchup conflict you default both to their vs random race. There's nothing preventing you from picking TvZ over ZvZ in most tournaments, so why it's somehow less 'pure' is beyond me. so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc, in the end one suffers and its a huge problem to programm and will result in alot mistakes and also the palyers liking or are better in mirrors will get ranked worse by having less of them overall there is absolute 0 reason for this a race or random as pick should be fine | ||
yB.TeH
Germany413 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:38 Bakuryu wrote: for the love of god, ZvZ is not a RPS BO coin flip. someone who dodges mirrors wouldn't understand | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:44 Drake wrote: so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc, in the end one suffers and its a huge problem to programm and will result in alot mistakes and also the palyers liking or are better in mirrors will get ranked worse by having less of them overall there is absolute 0 reason for this a race or random as pick should be fine do you realize,that this going to happen like never? Also in such cases, it could be also randomly decided... | ||
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:52 yB.TeH wrote: someone who dodges mirrors wouldn't understand im not blaming anybody or want them to be blamed, i just dont want "hate speech". so i kindly ask you to stop fueling it by discrediting people with other play preferences as "dodgers who are too stupid to understand" thank you | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:44 Drake wrote: so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc, This is not a discussion about people hating or being worse at certain matchups though, this is going to happen even with the current system. This is specifically about allowing racepicking to avoid mirrors. The only disadvantage this brings is that we get less mirrors, which most people are fine with anyway (not like there are that many racepickers anyway) | ||
orvinreyes
577 Posts
I have suggestions for you: 1) just stick to custom games and kick out whoever you dislike. Hope the wait time suits you. You get to keep your precious win rate though. 2) offer to pay blizzard a monthly premium, maybe they can give you this feature so you can finally play like a spoiled brat | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 20:42 orvinreyes wrote: OP, this is bullshit. What is this truly for? So you could keep your precious win rate? We know you hate mirrors because you suck at it. Therefore it also means some are good at it -- fair game. I dislike mirrors too, but I play it anyway because it's part of Starcraft. I have suggestions for you: 1) just stick to custom games and kick out whoever you dislike. Hope the wait time suits you. You get to keep your precious win rate though. 2) offer to pay blizzard a monthly premium, maybe they can give you this feature so you can finally play like a spoiled brat did you read the whole thread or you just wanted to post something? | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Or i really hate to play vs players who cheese a lot, there should be an option where i can select that i only get matched vs players who cheese in less than 10% of their games. It's funny to me that this is a discussion in the bw forums btw, the "perfect game". Apparently not perfect enough to play mirror matchups. Maybe we should change those | ||
Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
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smetson
United Kingdom14 Posts
If we alternatively only allow mirror matchup racepick than such a ladder disadvantages players who might be strongest in their mirror matchup. Picking a different race for every opponent race is even more problematic. What if I pick TvT, PvP and ZvZ? (note: this might not even be too crazy for me, I main P, like playing TvT and if map xyz feels bad for PvZ then I might as well go all the way) Suddenly the algorithm will likely create significantly less balanced matches as the playerbase is slowly fractured depending on the participants' selected matchups. Lastly, many posters suggest than race-picking is an integral part of brood war, yet it has been mentioned that is was heavily limited in the later stages of the korean scene, and even the poll on the first page shows that the consensus they say supposedly exists on this isn't necessarily true. (low sample, I know. but still 80/20) | ||
CrymeaTerran
149 Posts
-> If matched in a mirror match, which race do you want to play?: Pick one T,Z,P. Your enemy has selected in this option Z and you P cause both of you don't want to play tvt BUT what is if u pick Z and the enemy is picking Z too, what to do? The solution is, get good in mirrors, flash is good in tvt too. I don't c problem I can't say that TVT is MY favourite matchup, I even prefer PvP or ZvZ over TvT but I need to handle this, that means, I practice TvT hard and yesterday I won nearly every TvT matchup. | ||
Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
On August 18 2017 21:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: Why limit it to avoiding mirrors? I want my special treatment as well. What about playing TvZ, PvT and ZvP ? Or i really hate to play vs players who cheese a lot, there should be an option where i can select that i only get matched vs players who cheese in less than 10% of their games. It's funny to me that this is a discussion in the bw forums btw, the "perfect game". Apparently not perfect enough to play mirror matchups. Maybe we should change those You can't (as in, it's not possible) change mirrors so that the people that dislike them currently start to like them. Mirrors are always going to be less dynamic than non-mirrors, as they lack the imbalances that stem from the differences between the races in a non-mirror matchup. The dynamic that these imbalances create, can by definition not exist in a mirror. There are always going to be people that prefer this dynamic to the balance of a mirror matchup. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers. I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
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Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:07 jaeboss wrote: for the people claiming that it "literally wouldn't affect queue times" how can this be? right now you are matched based on MMR and map choice but wouldn't adding a 3rd criteria only further limit the possible players you can be matched with? am I missing something? lol,there would be no 3rd criteria. you would play the same players as now, there would only be lesser mirrors | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote: What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. | ||
renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
I may have lost all but one TvT I've played so far, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to avoid them completely; I think you'd be hurting yourself as a player to do so. | ||
Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
It's not just about the MMR - or even at all, for that matter. There's the balance between the joy of improving, and the joy of the match ups. And there's no going around that the mirrors are by far the most boring ones. There truly is no good reason to prevent people from choosing match ups/dodging mirrors. The only problem as far as I can see, is whether or not the game get's enough recources/attention from Blizzard to actually implement it. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:23 playa wrote: You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:34 EndingLife wrote: If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you. Given your logic, you prob have 1500 MMR, so I dunno man. Not sure it matters. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:41 playa wrote: Given your logic, you prob have 1500 MMR, so I dunno man. Not sure it matters. 1850 with Random and a shitty mouse lag, still wrecking. Good luck when I match with you. | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:13 Lopata wrote: lol,there would be no 3rd criteria. you would play the same players as now, there would only be lesser mirrors it depends what u are arguing. if you are strictly talking about preventing mirrors than yes, but if you are arguing for vetoing certain match ups then there would most certainly be a 3rd criteria that would lessen the field of possible matches | ||
Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
People also throw around vague phrases like "lots of people like mirrors", but it seems to me that the best evidence on that subject is in the sponsored Afreeca matches, where literally thousands of viewers PAY to watch two progamers play a series - the OVERWHELMING amount of which are not mirrors. Furthermore, there is another possible solution to the debacle, one that might be easier to program or implement from Blizzard's side - what if the two players matched in ranked are put into a custom game with an automatic 10/5 second count down, where they could change their race? Alternatively, how about allowing players to change their race after being matched in the current implementation of the automated matchmaking system. I feel that both of these options would be better than the current system, even though you might end up in awkward situations where both you and your opponent change your race. Lastly, on a completely personal note I would like to play zvp zvt tvz, I have for about 18? years. The reason isn't because I don't know how to play zvz, it's simply because playing tvz produces more consistent results. In zvz, I am consistently beating players significantly better than myself, while losing to players worse than myself, it has been that way for the vast majority of my starcraft "career". Personally I would prefer playing tvz, which has always resulted in me consistently losing to players better than myself, while beating players worse than myself. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:53 EndingLife wrote: 1850 with Random and a shitty mouse lag, still wrecking. Good luck when I match with you. You're a really champ. Me: hey guys, I can't beat anyone. You: oh man, I'd love to play you. Can't even wall. Keke. Man, I was so good at P vs Z. I knew everything before I even played it. Go me, I picked random. Awesome man. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 23:02 playa wrote: You're a really champ. Me: hey guys, I can't beat anyone. You: oh man, I'd love to play you. Can't even wall. Keke. Man, I was so good at P vs Z. I knew everything before I even played it. Go me, I picked random. Awesome man. Uhhhh... what? I'm pretty sure you brought this upon yourself. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 21:55 Lopata wrote: why i feel like most ppl responding here didnt read the thread and have no clue what they are talking about. Also ppl voting in the poll are probably casuals, new ppl or players who were never good and just only want to play a game, not giving fuck about tons of racepicking "coming back" players who want to help to grow bw again, but mirrors on ladder will acctually slow the process of growing down... I don't understand it either but there's some kind of idea of race picking being bad that's been around ever since the pre-sc2 beta days at least... | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:54 jaeboss wrote: it depends what u are arguing. if you are strictly talking about preventing mirrors than yes, but if you are arguing for vetoing certain match ups then there would most certainly be a 3rd criteria that would lessen the field of possible matches Obviously you cannot veto a race entirely - you would pick like this: vs X, Y vs Z, Y vs Y, X If incompatible or Random: Y It's incredibly simple and is exactly how any race picker had to do it in BW as well (I played PvT PvZ TvP PvR for a long time, ended up eventually being full protoss but lots of race picking experience). On August 18 2017 22:24 renaissanceMAN wrote: I really don't understand what the point of removing mirrors would be, to send things back to the old days? The redesigned matchmaking system was, among other things, meant to bring Starcraft into the 21st century... I may have lost all but one TvT I've played so far, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to avoid them completely; I think you'd be hurting yourself as a player to do so. How is a player that plays TvZ TvP ZvT TvR less complete than someone who plays TvZ TvT TvP TvR? | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 23:11 EndingLife wrote: Uhhhh... what? I'm pretty sure you brought this upon yourself. Brought what on myself? Being trolled? I've never had a reason to play P vs Z in my life. But, ofc everything is funny to someone cool enough to have picked random. It must have been super hard man. Feel free to talk about how difficult it is to play 3 races. Maybe you can shed some light on some more advantages you think you need. I mean, after all, no one plays random at pro level, cause no human is good enough. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:44 Drake wrote: so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc, in the end one suffers and its a huge problem to programm and will result in alot mistakes and also the palyers liking or are better in mirrors will get ranked worse by having less of them overall there is absolute 0 reason for this a race or random as pick should be fine This literally cannot happen if both players have a vs Random race set - if their matchup matrix is incompatible you just auto default both to their vs random option. In the days of custom-lobby ladder, yeah this could happen, but now it literally can't with a proper (and simple) algorithm. On August 18 2017 20:42 orvinreyes wrote: OP, this is bullshit. What is this truly for? So you could keep your precious win rate? We know you hate mirrors because you suck at it. Therefore it also means some are good at it -- fair game. I dislike mirrors too, but I play it anyway because it's part of Starcraft. I have suggestions for you: 1) just stick to custom games and kick out whoever you dislike. Hope the wait time suits you. You get to keep your precious win rate though. 2) offer to pay blizzard a monthly premium, maybe they can give you this feature so you can finally play like a spoiled brat Race picking is part of Starcraft, if anything... Grrr vs Theboy back in the early 2000s they race picked. Chrh race picked/randomed. Slayer race picked. PJ race picked. Testie race picked. Mondragon sometimes race picked (he had sick PvZ). Trek race picked. Daaman I thiiiiink race picked if memory serves. Ret race picked for most of his career. Twisted race picked. Drone race picked / randomed (ok mostly randomed like a true hero). Joyo race picked. Infinity race picked. | ||
ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers. I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. treated as hackers? really? LOL you have serious issues man | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 23:25 ortseam wrote: The discussion is only about racepicking to avoid mirrors. I don't understand why people keep mixing in comparisons with tvz/zvp/pvt or other types of racepicking; it's irrelevant and it's simply a bad argument against the specific type of racepicking which is being discussed. I very strongly think you should be able to race pick completely freely. The game is balanced enough that there's not much of a competitive advantage to doing that (realistically there's none because you have to play several different races), and in nearly 20 years of BW the people who've race picked are far outnumbered by those who did not. On August 18 2017 21:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: Why limit it to avoiding mirrors? I want my special treatment as well. What about playing TvZ, PvT and ZvP ? Sure. Or i really hate to play vs players who cheese a lot, there should be an option where i can select that i only get matched vs players who cheese in less than 10% of their games. Non-sequitur. It's funny to me that this is a discussion in the bw forums btw, the "perfect game". Apparently not perfect enough to play mirror matchups. Maybe we should change those Since BW has had race picking as part of it for close to 20 years (and most people choose not to do it) I think we don't need to change anything. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
On August 18 2017 23:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I very strongly think you should be able to race pick completely freely. The game is balanced enough that there's not much of a competitive advantage to doing that (realistically there's none because you have to play several different races), and in nearly 20 years of BW the people who've race picked are far outnumbered by those who did not. I agree with you, but this would make MM much more complicated, while simply avoiding mirrors wouldn't (just coinflip in case of same race). But i mentioned that mostly because it's being used as a (bad) argument from those who oppose this specific type of racepicking, where they try to create scenarios which almost never happen to prove their point. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 23:24 ROOTFayth wrote: treated as hackers? really? LOL you have serious issues man You guys have some autism issues. Obv exaggeration there. But, they're overwhelmingly scummy, that's for sure. It's so obvious that these guys feel they only have their MMR due to the random advantage. The stuff they try to pull to make sure they have an advantage makes a mockery out of the game. It's like bro... you have 2000 MMR, do you really need to type "X has left the game." Anything you can think of, you're going to experience it, on top of scouting them last. Without a doubt, I'd rather play vs a hacker. That's zero hyperbole there. Even if a person could play all races, they'd still probably have a preference or wouldn't feel dignified going random. I just think these guys are the clowns/scourge of the ladder. I'd gladly give my opponent vision before playing these guys. I've had a few people "tell me what race they are," unprompted. Guess how many were actually that race? It's so depressing knowing you suck bad enough to even have to play these clowns. Answer is obviously zero. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 18 2017 23:33 ortseam wrote: I agree with you, but this would make MM much more complicated, while simply avoiding mirrors wouldn't (just coinflip in case of same race). But i mentioned that mostly because it's being used as a (bad) argument from those who oppose this specific type of racepicking, where they try to create scenarios which almost never happen to prove their point. if you just add a "lobby" at MM, after you get matched against someone, and at this moment your can change your race during 5 seconds before game start (no leaving for cancelling, you lose if you quit), then it works easy no? like your MMR is either race or account based, no change to the inferface before looking for opponent, just possibility of changing race after you get matched up (which puts the race you selected as default) for 5 seconds after you see map and opponent race, locked after 3 seconds or smtg, go game start who is going to be mad at you for picking something other than your main for avoiding the mirror, the most likely case? I wouldnt do that cause I play P in all mus, and I wouldnt mind if my opponent does | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 19 2017 00:17 ProMeTheus112 wrote: if you just add a "lobby" at MM, after you get matched against someone, and at this moment your can change your race during 5 seconds before game start (no leaving for cancelling, you lose if you quit), then it works easy no? like your MMR is either race or account based, no change to the inferface before looking for opponent, just possibility of changing race after you get matched up (which puts the race you selected as default) for 5 seconds after you see map and opponent race, locked after 3 seconds or smtg, go game start who is going to be mad at you for picking something other than your main for avoiding the mirror, the most likely case? I wouldnt do that cause I play P in all mus, and I wouldnt mind if my opponent does I dont think this is good because it doesn't deal with the case where two people have incompatible matchup preferences. Automating the process solves that. | ||
FyRe_DragOn
Canada2049 Posts
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traxamillion
104 Posts
You know in all Korean tournaments race picking is not allowed right? You enter with one race and have to play it all the way through every match. You can't T vs Flash and Effort but play Z vs Bisu. | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
On August 19 2017 01:09 traxamillion wrote: Surprised so many people want this race picking trash. You guys are scrubs. Things are fine they way they are. You know in all Korean tournaments race picking is not allowed right? You enter with one race and have to play it all the way through every match. You can't T vs Flash and Effort but play Z vs Bisu. that isn't true lol. maybe they changed the rules for SOSPA era but at least for the first 15 years of korean bw this wasn't true | ||
Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
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Lopata
Czech Republic42 Posts
On August 19 2017 01:09 traxamillion wrote: Surprised so many people want this race picking trash. You guys are scrubs. Things are fine they way they are. You know in all Korean tournaments race picking is not allowed right? You enter with one race and have to play it all the way through every match. You can't T vs Flash and Effort but play Z vs Bisu. congrats, u won award for the most ignorant comment | ||
renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On August 19 2017 01:09 traxamillion wrote: Surprised so many people want this race picking trash. You guys are scrubs. Things are fine they way they are. You know in all Korean tournaments race picking is not allowed right? You enter with one race and have to play it all the way through every match. You can't T vs Flash and Effort but play Z vs Bisu. Rude. | ||
nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
I played Protoss vs Zerg, but he played Terran vs Protoss... and if he played Terran I played Zerg, but he only played Protoss vs Zerg, but if he played Protoss I wanted to be Terran... and then he wanted to be Zerg. while(true) | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On August 19 2017 01:43 rauk wrote: that isn't true lol. maybe they changed the rules for SOSPA era but at least for the first 15 years of korean bw this wasn't true On August 19 2017 02:24 Lopata wrote: congrats, u won award for the most ignorant comment He might be correct actually. I believe there came a point when individual leagues (OSL MSL Courage etc) required players to stick with their registered race for the whole tournament. In Proleague, you were allowed to pick Random but only if you submitted your decision ahead of time I believe. I definitely could be misremembering this though so someone feel free to correct me. edit: actually it seems for both individual leagues and proleague you just had to declare a race ahead of time blind. so technically you can't racepick but since 99.99% of the time you know your opponent's race you sorta can? | ||
LifeIsGood
4 Posts
Seeing someone like Ret get ZvZ over and over which he doesnt even really want to play is kind of annoying. I know race picking wasnt a thing in SC2 but personally I think this is the best fix to bring it back to BW. I dislike the idea of just queuing for a specific matchup that weve seen thrown around. I cant think of a better system than my idea but maybe we could brainstorm some tweaks to it? | ||
Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
But that's not even considering that they probably have design-philosophical reservations. For good reason. Think about the odd player who actually likes mirrors a lot. Are they now supposed to be screwed and play a mirror maybe once in 50 games just because the majority doesn't like playing them? In any case, it's probably the best idea that ya'll get used to mirror matches if you want to play on the official ladder. If we're lucky this kind of feature is | ||
Frauenarzt
Germany22 Posts
if u are terran on iccup and ur mu stats most likely look like 50 tvp 50 tvz and 10 tvt games so players who are good at mirror are already below the average rating they should have... also some people complain because 20 years of bw u could race pick thats just a joke right ? in those 20 years u could also zvz only to A+ or play 100-0 like testie on neo forbidden zone. also tournaments have nothing to do with mathmaking because u know who u play and u know the maps. most of the time u are also allowed to pick ur favorite map in bo3 after losing a game. | ||
yB.TeH
Germany413 Posts
On August 18 2017 23:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote: How is a player that plays TvZ TvP ZvT TvR less complete than someone who plays TvZ TvT TvP TvR? the non racepicking player isn't heavily disadvantaged in 1/3 of the cases against random | ||
Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
Sometimes you might need to practice a match up for an event (CW, NW, tournament etc.) and don't have a practice partner. In these cases it might be just as well to just make a game stating f.ex. "TvP Fighting Spirit 1600 rating ME T". And if people use it to be some one-trick pony boosting the MMR on their favorite MU on their favorite map, it doesn't really hurt anyone, as they'll get called out on it regardless. | ||
Waxangel
United States32498 Posts
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