On August 29 2017 07:57 KungKras wrote: Now that Brood War has matchmaking, and I'm not the cheesy player I used to be as a teenager. I've been trying to master the more safe standard builds for each matchup when playing protoss. This because I actually want to get to the long games so I can improve my (horrible) macro skill.
From what liquipedia tells me, gate into core into expand is the most standard and safe PvT build. But when facing a good terran player doing a properly timed fake double push, I just die, every game.
I have like 3 dragoons with range at the terran base and maybe 2-3 more will have popped out once the terran reaches my base.
Meanwhile the terran is able to push out with 2 tanks, 8 marines, 1 vulture with mines and sige mode on its way getting finished shortly after the push reaches my base.
It just feels unwinnable. I know it isn't otherwise this build wouldn't be the standard PvT build.
But am I really supposed to hold against that onslaught with just 3 goons plus eventual reinforcements, or am I just doing something horribly wrong that makes me have less units than I'm supposed to?
If I'm supposed to have more units, than how many goons am I supposed to have if I'm doing it right?
It's worth to note that the guy I'm playing against is much better than me. I think he managed to get C or higher on Iccup while the best I ever achived for a short period was D without the minus. So there is a large skillgap.
I also managed to either gas or supply block myself in some of the games and I bet that had an impact too, since the terran probably timed everything perfectly.
Also the terran does the trick where he moves his army close to the first dragoons before attacking to get lots of free hits. My multitasking isn't completely up to par so I keep falling for it. But I'm aware that I need to get better at avoiding that.
That's your punishment for being cheesy against D-/D terrans for so long... like me hehehe.
On September 19 2017 23:23 Silentenigma wrote: You can try 2 gate expand against T if you have problems with terran pushes.
Yeah I know. But it sort of bothers me that people can do things that I can't. And I'm getting better at it, so there is a feeling of growth that is really fun.
On September 21 2017 05:33 niteReloaded wrote: since when is 2tank 8 marine = FD?
Apparantly it's called "strong FD". And it's the kind of push that usually kills me when good players do it. On my MMR I think I can usually deal with it now. It's when I play friends that are above my skill level that I die. I think I can survive 4 marines + 1 tank just fine in most cases.
Strong FD is always a somewhat challenging hold, even moreso if terran does something like 10/10 strong FD. Regular FD with 4 rine, 1 tank should more or less be a guaranteed hold. You have to really mess up build or micro to die to that. Strong FD is totally different, it's not uncommon at all to struggle holding it.
You basically need really crisp timings for everything and good goon control to pick of marines without eating tank shots. When terran is really good, he does an excellent job keeping marines close to the tanks, making it virtually impossibly not to eat some shots. On the upside, if you hold it off cleanly, you're in a pretty comfortable position.
Kinda mean your friend is doing that to you...unless you asked him too
On August 29 2017 09:18 ProMeTheus112 wrote: first of all I would say, if you want to prevent this situation you can open with zealot before cyber, second zealot after cyber then goons
then you really want to avoid letting the T hit your goons with marines+tank(s) when he goes towards your base so don't let him know where your goons are and actually avoid trying to poke at his units until he gets to your base, that's when you have a little more strength compared to him cause your last goon just came out and also you might use your probes if needed
add a shield battery at your nat if you want^^
I dont rly open nexus after gate blind like this, i think its risky, T is rly strong at this point if you have only 1 gate and nexus, its hard
but if you just dont let your goons take damage when he comes out his base, and then you try to reach for the tanks in the micro rather than just damage the rines, hit the rines only if your goons are out of range of tank if possible, otherwise if you have the strength you can move forward hit a tank once or twice, need accuracy
but yeah you could just open 2 zeal before goon go his base he may need to make vult before machine shop, or open 2 gates, or open 1 gate 1 robo and go reaver, also using probes if necessary and/or shield battery can help, its just a major thing that in all 3 or 4 reps I've watched you lose 1 or 2 goons before he gets to your base, or lose so much hp on a few goons, that's nearly game over, T is strong in this situation
I would say that this advice is completely wrong!
First of all this bo is the standard at progamer level, not at our level.
Second: You usually solve this situation by micro. You should have 3 goons parked down his ramp by the time he has 1 tank (witch is the normal timing for pushing out). If he push out when he have 2 tanks you should have more goons. The reason why you are at his ramp is that you fight while retreating. If the tank is in front you can snipe the tank and then you are good. If the tank is behind (normal situation) you use hold position micro and try to pick up marines if possible. Do not get scvs near or behind you. When the first mines pops out try to target fire them.
Skip zealots!!!
I was just gonna say exactly this.
If you just stay home like the original poster said, you die. Best case scenario is he contains you while expanding and denying your expo, and you somehow miraculously break out with the help of a shuttle. You would still be far behind.
You HAVE to be at his base and chip away at his FD push as you back towards your expo. Otherwise players who understand how to do the FD will straight up kill you.
PS: Hi ajmbek
How to deal with the FD? Git gud. No, really, just practice the micro and watch some pro or good players do it. You usually try to stay just out of range of the tanks and marines, and pick off any stray marines with good movement and hold position micro, enough that you either make him turn back, or that your reinforcements can seal the deal. This should be the easy part for you, not hard, since you are a cheesy player, and cheesy players are supposed to have good micro.
If hes bad enough to expose the tank or continue pushing even after losing most marines, just kill the tank and the FD push is over (get quick obs/expo/3rd).
On August 29 2017 09:18 ProMeTheus112 wrote: first of all I would say, if you want to prevent this situation you can open with zealot before cyber, second zealot after cyber then goons
then you really want to avoid letting the T hit your goons with marines+tank(s) when he goes towards your base so don't let him know where your goons are and actually avoid trying to poke at his units until he gets to your base, that's when you have a little more strength compared to him cause your last goon just came out and also you might use your probes if needed
add a shield battery at your nat if you want^^
I dont rly open nexus after gate blind like this, i think its risky, T is rly strong at this point if you have only 1 gate and nexus, its hard
but if you just dont let your goons take damage when he comes out his base, and then you try to reach for the tanks in the micro rather than just damage the rines, hit the rines only if your goons are out of range of tank if possible, otherwise if you have the strength you can move forward hit a tank once or twice, need accuracy
but yeah you could just open 2 zeal before goon go his base he may need to make vult before machine shop, or open 2 gates, or open 1 gate 1 robo and go reaver, also using probes if necessary and/or shield battery can help, its just a major thing that in all 3 or 4 reps I've watched you lose 1 or 2 goons before he gets to your base, or lose so much hp on a few goons, that's nearly game over, T is strong in this situation
This is litearlly the worst advice... ever. Do not do what this man said.
3goon expand and sit 3 goons outside his natural and micro his army all the way back to your base with your range. By the time he gets his vulture he should have like 1-3 marines, tank and vulture with dmg on those as well and you've just gotten your 4th or 5th goon. FD is a contain push forcing mines outside of your natural, not an allin and if it does damage other than contain you're playing improperly.
On August 29 2017 09:18 ProMeTheus112 wrote: first of all I would say, if you want to prevent this situation you can open with zealot before cyber, second zealot after cyber then goons
then you really want to avoid letting the T hit your goons with marines+tank(s) when he goes towards your base so don't let him know where your goons are and actually avoid trying to poke at his units until he gets to your base, that's when you have a little more strength compared to him cause your last goon just came out and also you might use your probes if needed
add a shield battery at your nat if you want^^
I dont rly open nexus after gate blind like this, i think its risky, T is rly strong at this point if you have only 1 gate and nexus, its hard
but if you just dont let your goons take damage when he comes out his base, and then you try to reach for the tanks in the micro rather than just damage the rines, hit the rines only if your goons are out of range of tank if possible, otherwise if you have the strength you can move forward hit a tank once or twice, need accuracy
but yeah you could just open 2 zeal before goon go his base he may need to make vult before machine shop, or open 2 gates, or open 1 gate 1 robo and go reaver, also using probes if necessary and/or shield battery can help, its just a major thing that in all 3 or 4 reps I've watched you lose 1 or 2 goons before he gets to your base, or lose so much hp on a few goons, that's nearly game over, T is strong in this situation
This is litearlly the worst advice... ever. Do not do what this man said.
3goon expand and sit 3 goons outside his natural and micro his army all the way back to your base with your range. By the time he gets his vulture he should have like 1-3 marines, tank and vulture with dmg on those as well and you've just gotten your 4th or 5th goon. FD is a contain push forcing mines outside of your natural, not an allin and if it does damage other than contain you're playing improperly.
With regular FD against 3goon expand, 4th goon should come out by the time FD arrives at protoss's natural (push starts around when 3rd dragoon pops, so you'll have to initially micro with 2 then use the added 3rd dragoon to start microing)
If you can get a 3rd goon at your opponent's nat without them pushing out, its anything but standard FD, or they didn't optimize their build at all.
On August 29 2017 09:18 ProMeTheus112 wrote: first of all I would say, if you want to prevent this situation you can open with zealot before cyber, second zealot after cyber then goons
then you really want to avoid letting the T hit your goons with marines+tank(s) when he goes towards your base so don't let him know where your goons are and actually avoid trying to poke at his units until he gets to your base, that's when you have a little more strength compared to him cause your last goon just came out and also you might use your probes if needed
add a shield battery at your nat if you want^^
I dont rly open nexus after gate blind like this, i think its risky, T is rly strong at this point if you have only 1 gate and nexus, its hard
but if you just dont let your goons take damage when he comes out his base, and then you try to reach for the tanks in the micro rather than just damage the rines, hit the rines only if your goons are out of range of tank if possible, otherwise if you have the strength you can move forward hit a tank once or twice, need accuracy
but yeah you could just open 2 zeal before goon go his base he may need to make vult before machine shop, or open 2 gates, or open 1 gate 1 robo and go reaver, also using probes if necessary and/or shield battery can help, its just a major thing that in all 3 or 4 reps I've watched you lose 1 or 2 goons before he gets to your base, or lose so much hp on a few goons, that's nearly game over, T is strong in this situation
This is litearlly the worst advice... ever. Do not do what this man said.
3goon expand and sit 3 goons outside his natural and micro his army all the way back to your base with your range. By the time he gets his vulture he should have like 1-3 marines, tank and vulture with dmg on those as well and you've just gotten your 4th or 5th goon. FD is a contain push forcing mines outside of your natural, not an allin and if it does damage other than contain you're playing improperly.
With regular FD against 3goon expand, 4th goon should come out by the time FD arrives at protoss's natural (push starts around when 3rd dragoon pops, so you'll have to initially micro with 2 then use the added 3rd dragoon to start microing)
If you can get a 3rd goon at your opponent's nat without them pushing out, its anything but standard FD, or they didn't optimize their build at all.
This is all true. Even in close positions, your 3rd goon should be at your natural by the time FD rolls out. This means you'll have 2 goons at the terran's natural and a 3rd one on the way. Snipe some shit with your first 2 dragoons while backing up and waiting for your 3rd dragoon to join the party.