Best zerg today? - Page 3
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Ty2
United States1431 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
Seriously not one of the supposed top zerg players give me any hope for the race in the near future JD is getting on with the age and his wrist is busted Effort doesn't give a damn about offline tourneys ever since his vnsl win over bisu a few years back Hero shown good form lately but nothing so far has persuade me that he is anything more than the "good in zvp mediocre in everything else" limited potential player hes always been. Plus hes leaving for army soon so byebye form! Larva lul. A certified Flash punching bag does not automatically make you a title contender Soulkey slow player. Feel like if he had JD/effort mechanics he would be top maybe. On May 15 2018 00:14 Ty2 wrote: Why is no one talking about zelot? I know every build of his and their nuances. Im a secret admirer of his come fite me | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On May 15 2018 00:21 ggsimida wrote: Is there an option called "none"? Seriously not one of the supposed top zerg players give me any hope for the race in the near future JD is getting on with the age and his wrist is busted Effort doesn't give a damn about offline tourneys ever since his vnsl win over bisu a few years back Hero shown good form lately but nothing so far has persuade me that he is anything more than the "good in zvp mediocre in everything else" limited potential player hes always been. Plus hes leaving for army soon so byebye form! Larva lul. A certified Flash punching bag does not automatically make you a title contender Soulkey slow player. Feel like if he had JD/effort mechanics he would be top maybe. I know every build of his and their nuances. Im a secret admirer of his come fite me People being in denial about herO being a legitimate contender for the title of the best zerg at the moment, reminds me of the time when Kal won KeSPA Protoss of the Year Award in 2010. People were so depressed about the fact that the best performing protoss player didn't even come close to inspiring hope for the race, that they reminisced about the past while rejecting the notion that Kal was objectively speaking the best performing protoss player for that particular year. It doesn't matter if the best isn't good enough. herO is currently the highest rated zerg player according to the ELO ranking based on online sponsored games results, as well as being the best performing zerg in the past five seasons of the AfreecaTV StarLeagues. People shouldn't ignore results just because the end narrative is dull and lifeless. Sometimes competition is dull and lifeless, but people definitely should stay away from trying to conjure up imaginary alternate universes where things are more volatile and exciting. I just wish people stopped ignoring competitive results just because accepting that reality leads to uninspiring narratives. | ||
iFU.pauline
France1389 Posts
On May 14 2018 21:38 Letmelose wrote: I didn't realize we were treating Brood War as a performance art. If you were to award points for technical ability and style, I probably would agree that EffOrt's victories when he is on form are masterpieces. His good games are stimulating and mesmerizing to watch at the same time, although they don't nearly happen as frequently as you pretend. However, if you throw around vague terminologies like "strength" and "skills" instead of actually looking into competitive results, and completely ignoring competitive results until it matches your expectations for your personal hierarchy of player potential and ability, you might as well imagine how things would play out in your head instead of observing reality at that point. Why bother even watching if you are only willing to input information that confirms your preconceived notions of reality? That is just delusional behaviour, and even if it is somewhat rooted on information, it does not do anybody any good. Player ability and player performance does not always correlate accurately, and it is wrong to presume that the player with the most success is the most skilled, or most talented. However, with that being said, ignoring results negates the entire purpose of competition. The end objective of any competition is to win. Once you start to prioritize your personal subjective opinion over clear end objectives that can be measured, there is no discussion to be had. You can basically rationalize anything to suit your own narrative at that point. Unless every one of EffOrt's victories that are impressive to the eye count as ten regular victories achieved by herO, I don't see a logical conclusion where EffOrt clearly outclasses herO to the point where it is an insult to compare and contrast the two. You like EffOrt more. I already got that. I was asking if there was any merit to your statements. I'm still waiting for the answer. If players were judged by how impressed people were by careful selection their most memorable games, you could have a universe where Bisu ranks above Flash. His MSL victory over sAviOr alone could count for like three championship titles by the raucous it caused. Competition is not an entirely accurate representation of skill (plus people have different definitions of what constitutes as skill). The plethora of practice bonjwas we had over the years such as Canata, and Rain when they dominated fellow SK Telecom T1 players during practice, yet achieving nothing of note within the professional realm is indicative of that. However, once you start to completely disregard competitive results in favour of your own personal views on the matter, there is literally nothing that can disprove your own delusional thinking, since the only things that matter are your own subjective opinions on the subject. I don't pay attention to competitive (assuming ASL is competitive which is debatable) results because they don't reflect reality as it used to be, for instance asl final Shine vs Flash. On the other side I pay attention to the hundreds of games I watch on stream and those are more relevant to me when assessing who perform better than who. And I suggest you watch them all over again and see who is delusional when saying hero > effort. Putting this aside, I am very disappointed by Effort's result in ASL and even more disappointed when I watch him spend hours on hunter ums because the player is worth way better than that and has already won in his career more than hero larva and soulkey combined. I mean seriously you even showed some stats yourself, are you telling me it is "just" flash, bisu and jaedong? come on... | ||
Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
If the ASL isn't your yardstick, there's no good answer. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
And speaking of which, putting larva on any way zerg list and talking about who got more talent is strange. The guy was a nobody compared to top level players and only because of his incredible work ethic, enduring countless humiliating losses, he is where he is today with all the hubris he can carry. Scariest zerg, then, when assuming top form any day, would be a tie between SoulKey and Effort. Effort's early-mid game aggression and tactical cunning is really, really scary. And SoulKey is devious as hell too. | ||
Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:43 iFU.pauline wrote: I don't pay attention to competitive (assuming ASL is competitive which is debatable) results because they don't reflect reality as it used to be, for instance asl final Shine vs Flash. On the other side I pay attention to the hundreds of games I watch on stream and those are more relevant to me when assessing who perform better than who. And I suggest you watch them all over again and see who is delusional when saying hero > effort. Putting this aside, I am very disappointed by Effort's result in ASL and even more disappointed when I watch him spend hours on hunter ums because the player is worth way better than that and has already won in his career more than hero larva and soulkey combined. I mean seriously you even showed some stats yourself, are you telling me it is "just" flash, bisu and jaedong? come on... You also don't seem to be paying attention to his streams either, or seem to live in your own little bubble where your cherished memories of EffOrt in online matches from 2017 and select competitive matches where he actually won are somehow relevant to the discussion. On May 13 2018 23:31 SuperCyan wrote: ASL 5 is almost done now, and I know this question has been asked last year. Who is the best zerg now? Hero or Larva? The question specifies the best zerg now. Exactly what about his sub-50% win rate in 2018 online sponsored matches, and sub-40% win rate this month makes it a heinous crime to compare herO to herO now? Please do clarify as an avid viewer of EffOrt's streams. Like I already mentioned before, herO is currently at the top of the standings in terms of ELO calculated from recent online sponsored matches. I also have admired and rewarded EffOrt for his beautiful games in 2017, so I know very well what his peak form can look like. However, your assertions are wrong, and have zero relevance to the topic at hand. This isn't a memorial of EffOrt's greatest hits. Go make your own thread about it. You keep switching the topic every time just to confess your appreciation for EffOrt instead of trying to discuss the topic at hand with any sort of sincerity. Exactly which part of the best zerg now compels you to rant about EffOrt's glorious past championships, Jaedong has won more Brood War tournaments than EffOrt, Soulkey, Larva, and herO combined too. Does it have any relevance to what we are discussing currently? Obviously not. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:27 Letmelose wrote: People being in denial about herO being a legitimate contender for the title of the best zerg at the moment, reminds me of the time when Kal won KeSPA Protoss of the Year Award in 2010. People were so depressed about the fact that the best performing protoss player didn't even come close to inspiring hope for the race, that they reminisced about the past while rejecting the notion that Kal was objectively speaking the best performing protoss player for that particular year. It doesn't matter if the best isn't good enough. herO is currently the highest rated zerg player according to the ELO ranking based on online sponsored games results, as well as being the best performing zerg in the past five seasons of the AfreecaTV StarLeagues. People shouldn't ignore results just because the end narrative is dull and lifeless. Sometimes competition is dull and lifeless, but people definitely should stay away from trying to conjure up imaginary alternate universes where things are more volatile and exciting. I just wish people stopped ignoring competitive results just because accepting that reality leads to uninspiring narratives. yes statiscally speaking hero is the best zerg right now. its something anyone with access to a database can immediately say. but people have their own notion and vision of what kind of play and results a "best zerg" should display. poeple reminisce the past not just for the sake of it, but it reminds them how certain players are able to push the boundaries of what a certain race is capable of. 08-09 JD is great example, not just a statistic bonjwa but a complete beast in every facet of his play. current hero is statistically "the best zerg today" but none of his play shows anything fanciful or remarkable that makes one go "wow" when you watch him play. You may not agree with this definition but at least show some respect for other BW fans who are emotionally invested in the game, rather than just constantly slating and trolling them for no good reason like you did with pauline. | ||
Kare
Norway786 Posts
Category 2(offline heroes): Soulkey, herO Larva is probably part of both categories soon, if not already. He has done pretty well in ASL lately. Jaedong is sadly not in the best form of his life, his ZvZ is still super good though, but his ZvT and ZvP is really lacking compared to the others. FlaSh crushes Jaedong pretty hard almost every game. | ||
feckless
1099 Posts
On May 15 2018 10:37 ggsimida wrote: yes statiscally speaking hero is the best zerg right now. its something anyone with access to a database can immediately say. but people have their own notion and vision of what kind of play and results a "best zerg" should display. poeple reminisce the past not just for the sake of it, but it reminds them how certain players are able to push the boundaries of what a certain race is capable of. 08-09 JD is great example, not just a statistic bonjwa but a complete beast in every facet of his play. current hero is statistically "the best zerg today" but none of his play shows anything fanciful or remarkable that makes one go "wow" when you watch him play. You may not agree with this definition but at least show some respect for other BW fans who are emotionally invested in the game, rather than just constantly slating and trolling them for no good reason like you did with pauline. What a "best zerg" "should" or "should not" display is highly subjective. Not to mention that, once again, focusing on past results still does not indicate who is the best "now". "Should" means something entirely subjective. The results, which you yourself have acknowledged indicate hero is the best zero now, are not subjective. The results actually matter. | ||
orvinreyes
577 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On May 15 2018 10:37 ggsimida wrote: yes statiscally speaking hero is the best zerg right now. its something anyone with access to a database can immediately say. but people have their own notion and vision of what kind of play and results a "best zerg" should display. poeple reminisce the past not just for the sake of it, but it reminds them how certain players are able to push the boundaries of what a certain race is capable of. 08-09 JD is great example, not just a statistic bonjwa but a complete beast in every facet of his play. current hero is statistically "the best zerg today" but none of his play shows anything fanciful or remarkable that makes one go "wow" when you watch him play. You may not agree with this definition but at least show some respect for other BW fans who are emotionally invested in the game, rather than just constantly slating and trolling them for no good reason like you did with pauline. Why do you feel I have an obligation to show respect to those who slander herO? If you want to comment that other zerg players "impress" you more than herO, by all means do so, but when people say it is an insult to compare herO to EffOrt in the discussion of the best zerg players of today, I have zero regrets about calling bullshit on that. Respect goes both ways. Slating a bullshit derogatory comment towards a player by using statistics may seem meaningless to you, but I'd much rather face facts than discussing our feelings towards various players with complete disregard for their actual results. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 15 2018 11:16 feckless wrote: What a "best zerg" "should" or "should not" display is highly subjective. Not to mention that, once again, focusing on past results still does not indicate who is the best "now". "Should" means something entirely subjective. The results, which you yourself have acknowledged indicate hero is the best zero now, are not subjective. The results actually matter. because i think the whole point of this thread is to open up discussion on best zerg today subjective/objective based. because going by statistics/results ALONE its obvious who the best zerg is today. There Mr. OptaBroodwar has showed us the statistics, everyone can just shut up and leave, mods can just close this thread already. theres no place for one's opinions even in threads like this, really?? how boring. On May 15 2018 11:25 Letmelose wrote: Respect goes both ways. Slating a bullshit derogatory comment towards a player by using statistics may seem meaningless to you, but I'd much rather face facts than discussing our feelings towards various players with complete disregard for their actual results. its not about respect for hero here, its respect for other posters. all i see from your post to pauline is "fuck your emotional attachment to effort, muh winrates is the only thing that matters (even if hero juest 3 hatch hydra all his games)" also noone is showing disregard for actual results, people have their own opinion of who their "best zerg" even knowing about actual results. you say broodwar is merely about competition, well i disagree, it has fine art aspect to it that goes beyond mere winning and losing. otherwise you will only see every BW fans support Flash, but in reality they don't. | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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ggsimida
1100 Posts
On May 15 2018 12:45 Alpha-NP- wrote: Letmelose are other players not allowed to have an opinion if it differs from yours? when did i say letmelose is not allowed to have a take on this thread. alle i ask is for him not to denigrate every single non statistics post he sees. | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On May 15 2018 12:31 ggsimida wrote: because i think the whole point of this thread is to open up discussion on best zerg today subjective/objective based. because going by statistics/results ALONE its obvious who the best zerg is today. There Mr. OptaBroodwar has showed us the statistics, everyone can just shut up and leave, mods can just close this thread already. theres no place for one's opinions even in threads like this, really?? how boring. its not about respect for hero here, its respect for other posters. all i see from your post to pauline is "fuck your emotional attachment to effort, muh winrates is the only thing that matters (even if hero juest 3 hatch hydra all his games)" also noone is showing disregard for actual results, people have their own opinion of who their "best zerg" even knowing about actual results. you say broodwar is merely about competition, well i disagree, it has fine art aspect to it that goes beyond mere winning and losing. otherwise you will only see every BW fans support Flash, but in reality they don't. When a poster bases his entire argument to support his outlandish claims (with derogatory comments towards a player) on past subjective impressions from a time-frame that isn't even relevant to the discussion, yes, I would say that is having complete disregard for competitive results. Brood War isn't just about results, but when you ignore results entirely, that becomes a problem. What are we discussing here? How watching EffOrt's online games from 2017 makes people swoon? Or the best zerg today? I thought we were discussing the latter. | ||
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