Community Feedback Update - July 19 - Page 5
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runn3r5uk
13 Posts
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Athenau
555 Posts
The old cyclone filled a needed role for mech (a fast poking and skirmishing unit and mobile anti-air) without being overbearing, and we were just starting to see people like Innovation use them in interesting ways. The new cyclone is just an unga unit whose primary purpose in life seems to be enabling stupid cheeses and making TvT terrible. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15617 Posts
Back when we had the old Cyclone terran had tankivacs to defend against things like Ravager rushes. Take Cyclones away and terran dies every time. | ||
KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On July 20 2018 02:52 McNuggets wrote: Nothing about shield batteries and immortals vs zerg. feelsbadman. cuz there isn't much wrong with it. what might need some addressing is warpprism pickup range and offensive use of shield batteries. but if you address that, you have to address hydra/baneling as well, and we start from scratch again. | ||
SHODAN
United Kingdom1049 Posts
On July 22 2018 03:26 Charoisaur wrote: without the current cyclone early game would be unplayable as terran. Back when we had the old Cyclone terran had tankivacs to defend against things like Ravager rushes. Take Cyclones away and terran dies every time. pre-3.8.0 terran vs 1-base ravager rush? if I remember correctly, tankivacs were used to punish 1-base ravager rushes. they were not the linchpin of terran's defense. reaper expand. no SCV scout. reaper runs straight to zerg's natural and finds no hatchery. cancel command center. now try rushing straight for tankivac. you will either straight-up die, or lose too many SCVs while you buy time for the tank and medivac to finish. the correct response was to build a bunker on the high ground, then build 1-2 lock-on cyclones before even thinking about tanks. once you have 4 marines in the bunker, you float the barracks and snipe overlords with lock-on (ahh... back when 1 volley killed an overlord. good times). yeah, the new cyclone is a crutch. its primary purpose is to help terran survive the early game. but even if we accept the new cyclone on these terms, it is still inadequate. a good ravager rusher or cheesy protoss understands how to win the numbers game. they just need one piece of intel (how many cyclones you are making) and they can run rings around you, defending any attempt to counterattack or punish with cyclones. that's what happens when you are up against an unmicroable unit. oh, he made 6 cyclones? build 1 more phoenix or 1 more immortal. oh, he made 8 cyclones? build 2 more phoenixes or 2 more immortals. I'm not saying to bring back the old cyclone exactly as it was. my point is that the lock-on mechanic needs to be reinstated. everything else can be tweaked... supply cost, mineral / gas cost, techlab limitation, damage stats, build time, ability upgrades. those things are all on the table. here's what I would suggest: remove tornado blasters reinstate ground-to-ground lock-on with auto-cast toggle reinstate ground-to-air lock-on with auto-cast toggle revert the movement speed nerf revert the health buff (cyclones should be glass cannons) 3 supply cost... maybe even 2 supply, depending on the damage/health scaling patch 3.7 model size no techlab limitation reduce the cost from 150/100 to ???/?? (125/75, 100/50, test, test, test) and proportionally reduce ground-to-ground lock-on damage to match the cost for example: -16.67% health = -16.67% mineral cost = -16.67% damage = 333 damage over 20 seconds -33.33% health = -33.33% mineral cost = -33.33% damage = 267 damage over 20 seconds) if you scale the old cyclone down to 2 supply with lower health and damage, you can decrease the build time. this would allow terrans to pump out cyclones in a timely fashion vs ravager rushes / toss all-ins. its speed and micro potential would allow terrans to defend rushes with a greater number of mini-cyclones (imagine the cyclone with a hellion-sized model) if ground-to-ground activation range is a problem early-game vZ (7 range >>> queens, 4.72 movement speed >>> every T1 zerg unit except speedlings), then make lock-on activation range an upgrade, or merge the upgrade bonus with one of the existing 3.7 upgrades (e.g. mag field). new upgrade: charon boosters. armory or fusion core requirement. increases lock-on activation range of ground-to-air weapons by 3 (activation range, not missile range). this would make cyclones the core AA mech unit even vs capital ships. bye bye thors, nobody will miss you. if AA damage is a problem in the early game (too strong against oracle / medivacs / banshees), then merge the AA damage bonus with charon boosters. personally, I wouldn't mind reducing the supremacy of air units in the early game, especially TvP, and we also have the little problem of sniping overlords to defend ravager rushes... and for the icing on the cake, 4 lock-on cyclones fit inside a medivac | ||
avilo
United States4100 Posts
On July 21 2018 09:40 pvsnp wrote: Gotta say, I think you guys are arguing about the wrong thing. It’s true enough that lategame armies are a bitch to manage. So many moving parts, so many control groups, so many chances to screw up. But I think that's kind of beside the point. The point is twofold: First, enough Ghosts with enough energy and proper control, assuming they’re in a properly sieged and fortified defensive setup, can smash any army that Zerg can produce. The ultimate Terran army beats the ultimate Zerg army, hands down. Planetaries, Liberators, and Marauders shield the Ghosts from the Ling/Bane/Broodlings and let them get their spells off. Barring lucky fungals that catch the entire Ghost ball or an equivalent miracle, EMP will deny spellcasting and snipes will slaughter the Zerg tech units. Second, Zerg has a massive advantage and will almost certainly win in the lategame. This is not because the ultimate army for Zerg is stronger–it’s weaker. It’s simply because the lategame reverses the conventional roles of each race, and Zerg gains an inherent advantage from that. In normal TvZ, Terran is the aggressor and Zerg the defender. Zerg therefore has certain advantages to facilitate that defense. Like creep, for vision and rapid army movement. It also has the production advantage of larva, which allow army units to be produced on-demand. As the defender, these advantages are necessary to survive. Of course, Terran has offensive advantages too. Mules let the Terran produce fewer scvs and more army, planetaries reduce the need for static defense, and so forth. However, in the lategame, the roles flip. Terran becomes the defender and Zerg the aggressor. And as the aggressor, Zerg’s advantages become overwhelmingly strong whereas Terran’s defensive advantages dwindle to irrelevance, and thus Zerg gains a massive advantage over Terran. I mentioned earlier that the ultimate Terran army can beat the ultimate Zerg army. Problem is, the ultimate Terran army is slow as fuck and extremely clunky to reposition, because of the need for unsieging and resieging, presplitting, etc. Because Ghosts are the critical unit, it is also hindered by the need to accommodate and protect slow ground units around terrain features. Now to be fair, the ultimate Zerg army is also slow as fuck, despite being more reliant on air units; nobody says BLs are fast. The key here is that ultimate armies don’t actually matter. The lategame is not about ultimate armies. It’s about the economy. Think for a moment about a generic TvZ lategame. The map is split in two. The Zerg half, and probably a fair chunk of the Terran half, is covered in creep. Terran is all turtled up behind sensor towers and planetaries and turrets. Both sides have massive banks (Zerg moreso) and both sides have these enormous lategame deathballs squaring off on one side of the map, near Terran’s fifth or sixth. If Zerg is dumb, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go “Hell yeah this army is invincible! Imma go crush that Terran scrub!” They muster up all their micro skill and go for it. Then the Terran army goes pew pew and suddenly that mighty Zerg army is a puddle of blood. The dumb Zerg, in a fit of petulance, reaches for his enormous checkbook and writes himself a big old check for a whole new LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army. Rinse and repeat until the dumb Zerg realizes that the universe is finite, its resources finite, and promptly dies. But if the Zerg is smart, they look at their mighty LBH + BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper army and go….absolutely nowhere. That mighty Zerg army does nothing at all. It just sits on its ass, right on the edge of Terran’s vision, occasionally poking and posturing and reminding Terran of the horrible swarmy doom that it can unleash at any moment. Any moment now. Aaaaany moment. Instead, the smart Zerg takes some of the smallest, most insignificant units in that mighty Zerg army, namely Ling/Bane, and runs it to the opposite side of the map, to Terran’s fourth or sixth or whatever. While both players are staring at their enormous deathballs, he amoves or shift-clicks into the base, and gets cleaned up after blowing up some supply depots or something. Then he makes some more Ling/Bane and does it again, at that same base, or another base, doesn’t matter just as long as it’s far away from the big Terran deathball. None of this will accomplish very much, just killing the stray depot or sensor tower or what have you, slowly eroding the walls of the Terran turtle. Attention, after all, is a resource just like minerals or gas, and just as finite. Terran doesn’t have time to fix walls–at least not all of them–when there’s a horrible swarmy doom on his doorstep. Then the Zerg takes a little more supply, and makes a bunch of banes. A whole lot of banes. He runs them past the broken-down walls and straight into a planetary. Boom. Suddenly Terran is down a base. This, of course, gets a reaction from the Terran. He needs that base, after all. So he sends an scv to build a new CC, or he floats over one of his orbitals, or whatever. Whatever it is, it’s more vulnerable than a planetary was, so it’s a straightforward matter for the Zerg to send a bit more Ling/Bane and deny it. Now the Terran wises up, assuming he didn’t the first time, and sends a couple medivacs worth of bio to clean up the nuisance and secure the expansion. So the next time, Zerg sends the Ling/Bane to a different base. If he’s feeling bold, perhaps he sends some hydras or even ultras along with them. Maybe he even attacks two bases at once. Maybe once Terran has pulled scvs, he burrows some cracklings in the mineral line, or banes along the reinforcement path. You get the idea. Soon enough the Terran is running everywhere, trying to put out fires. Except more of them keep springing up. Except the Ling/Bane arsonists are faster than the MMM firefighters. Except Zerg has a bigger bank than he does, and the larva to use it, and an extra base or two mining because Terran’s fourth or fifth or sixth is always on fire. The thing is, Ling/Bane is fast. Really fast. When the map is mostly purple, Ling/Bane gets anywhere in a real hurry. As the defender, this is essential in order to react to drops. As the aggressor though, Ling/Bane runs rings around Bio. And Terran's own advantages don't scale the same way. Mules are great but somewhat less important with huge banks. While they do allow larger Terran armies, the issue is not army size but rather army position. Even a maxed army cannot defend everywhere. Planetaries are great against smaller harass but enough banes can and do defeat them. When Terran is the one defending, stimmed bio arrives to the fight half-dead. Boost is a slow reaction when the first warning is banes exploding. And when both players are paying attention to their huge deathballs, amoved Ling/Bane blows up amoved Bio. Cracklings tear buildings down in record time, and while using banes against buildings is inefficient, that doesn’t matter so much when Zerg has an extra base or two mining. And all the while, Zerg has an enormous deathball waiting patiently outside the Terran base. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much patience and move out of that fortified position with turrets and planetaries and liberators galore. Waiting for Terran to lose a little too much economy and stop replacing those expensive Ghosts. Waiting for victory. So maybe Terran doesn’t take the bait and waits, putting out fires as best as he can, trying to harass a Zerg with vision of half the map and then some. Eventually Terran’s smaller bank runs dry and his hope with it. Death by a thousand cuts. Zerg wins. Or Terran does take the bait and moves out, onto creep, into a spore forest, trying to smash the Zerg in a decisive engagement. Even if he wins the fight by some miracle, what then? Go deep onto creep to kill one hatchery and get surrounded by the remax? Or inch forward, clear a bit of creep, and hope to pull off another miracle against the remax? Death by overextension. Zerg wins. I think you get the picture. People often say that Terran has a weak lategame against Zerg, which I don’t think is entirely accurate. Terran has a strong lategame. It just doesn’t matter, because lategame isn’t about strength on a fundamental level. It’s about the economy. Sorry for the wall of text. TL;DR lategame TvZ is a game of economy with Terran defending and Zerg attacking, and inherently favors Zerg. No offense, but you're entirely wrong. Or rather, you'd be entirely right if ghost snipe were uncancellable. I've played both sides of the match-up, mega lategame. When i play ZvT, when i get to my army of brood/viper/lurker/queen/nydus with overseers, i never lose, especially versus mass ghosts. The ghosts can't do anything when my 15 broods / lurkers are cancelling snipes over and over again. The ghosts just do that "yell" and then die and i win. When i play TvZ, ever since the raven nerf, i know i have to kill the Zerg "before he gets there" because if the Zerg chooses to turtle to that army, the only way to win is landing/zoning with nukes and hoping the Zerg gets impatient and walks into one. From the Terran perspective that Zerg army has no counter anymore post-raven nerf. It's worse if the Zerg brings 20 spore crawlers with the "god composition" too. You're presenting a theoretical "hopeful" view of balance where Terran ghost snipe is hitting 100% of the time without being cancelled. That never actually happens in real gameplay, most of the time snipes are cancelled and the Zerg wins when it reaches that point. With that said...why are ghost snipes cancellable? If the Terran pays money for a unit, that unit shouldn't have a handicap that makes it not even function, that's kind of bad game design. I think ghost snipe should be uncancellable, then your entire post might be true, and the game might be more balanced late game. As it is right now, lategame massively favors Zerg. Every ZvT right now, Zerg should just be playing to stop the first 3 attacks of Terran and then you basically have won the game. Even S. Korean Zergs at Homestory cup said the same thing as me. I forget which Zerg it was, they said, "oh stop first attack, stop next one, stop one more attack Zerg win." | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5208 Posts
On July 22 2018 11:44 avilo wrote: I forget which Zerg it was, they said, "oh stop first attack, stop next one, stop one more attack Zerg win." And they did that to troll this forum didn't they... "I'm going to tell Avilo that Zerg is overpowered, you tell them Protoss is overpowered and then we'll watch the forums explode." Koreans are so OP. | ||
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On July 22 2018 05:02 KalWarkov wrote: cuz there isn't much wrong with it. what might need some addressing is warpprism pickup range and offensive use of shield batteries. but if you address that, you have to address hydra/baneling as well, and we start from scratch again. It'd make me so happy to see that change. Dealing with prism pickups is frustrating. It feels like you can't do much about it unless your opponent messes up. | ||
Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On July 22 2018 03:26 Charoisaur wrote: without the current cyclone early game would be unplayable as terran. Back when we had the old Cyclone terran had tankivacs to defend against things like Ravager rushes. Take Cyclones away and terran dies every time. Old cyclones were miles better in early game, they were even nick named the "terran mothership core" | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15617 Posts
On July 22 2018 15:40 Lexender wrote: Old cyclones were miles better in early game, they were even nick named the "terran mothership core" against air they were better. Against ground attacks they were almost useless not to mention they required a techlab. | ||
Elentos
55454 Posts
On July 22 2018 18:20 Charoisaur wrote: against air they were better. Against ground attacks they were almost useless not to mention they required a techlab. They'd be better against shield battery cheese and you could defend everything Zerg can do with tanks still. But it sounds wrong as hell to open TvZ with defensive tanks past Wings beta. | ||
JoFar
31 Posts
Of course every big tournement this year has been won by a protoss ... oh ... wait ... Anyways ... i think it's totally fine to don't change anythiong right now. Balance is pretty good, as you can see in nearly all of the big tournements in the last months, from Ro16 until Ro4 there was in most cases a nearly perfect race balance. Of course Terran and Zerg were winning, but often times a toss was in the final, so that's pretty decent ... and in the end of course we have two absolutely dominating players in the regions this year with Maru and Serral ... every player has a very hard time right now to defeat them, doesn't matter if P, Z or T. In my opinion Blizz should leave the game right now as it is ... i'm sure they will make another big change after blizzcon anyways to keep it interesting ... but until they do that there is no reason to do changes to a - right now - very good working and balanced system. | ||
SHODAN
United Kingdom1049 Posts
On July 22 2018 18:20 Charoisaur wrote:Against ground attacks they were almost useless did you try using them after the lock-on range bug was fixed? the final version of lock-on existed for 11 weeks, between August 2016 and November 2016. before that time, yes... they were indeed useless... but for those glorious 11 weeks, they could outrange marines, marauders, stalkers, immortals, queens, ravagers, upgraded hydras. | ||
Carminedust
487 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1049 Posts
On July 22 2018 21:41 Carminedust wrote: Make TvZ great again lets get TvZ how it was in late heart of the swarm were Terrans had to do nothing when going mech and eventually just win after the map mines out and they deflect everything with mass ravens and PDD as one BC kills everything have you tried the battle.net forums? I think that's more your scene, judging by the quality of your post. ctrl+f "pdd" this is the only other result for "pdd", beside your post: On July 20 2018 03:31 Lyyna wrote: I hope they consider making the raven a pure support unit with something like turret / healing drone / PDD at some point, instead of giving it a missile that alternates between "everyone whines about it" and "wait, ravens can fire a missile?". Turn it into a unit that can't be massed, but having a small pack in the lategame can help with efficiency.. something terran considerably lacks currently. Hell, the earliest iterations of the missile were much better ; it forced micro from the opponent while still fairly easy to negate the damage, but avoiding it meant retreating, making it a great area control tool in the same style as the tank or the lib. Opportunity costs, that stuff.. Balance wise, we're in a good place in terms of numbers, but T is still pigeon holed into the same stuff as always. a perfectly reasonable suggestion for the raven, put forward with a positive attitude. if you really want to get fucked by turtle ravens that badly, fine. nobody's judging you. just try to keep your masochistic fantasies to yourself, weirdo. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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Lyyna
France775 Posts
On July 22 2018 21:54 SHODAN wrote: have you tried the battle.net forums? I think that's more your scene, judging by the quality of your post. ctrl+f "pdd" this is the only other result for "pdd", beside your post: a perfectly reasonable suggestion for the raven, put forward with a positive attitude. if you really want to get fucked by turtle ravens that badly, fine. nobody's judging you. just try to keep your masochistic fantasies to yourself, weirdo. At least if you trade missile for PDD, there is a clear choice between offense and defense. Same thing with reinstating the old WoL missile : it created a clear choice between damage & area control for the opponent. Even tho you could mass it and blow shit up, it was fairly easy to avoid, and was basically a trade of energy for terrain & time. The entire kit of the raven was made for this support / control role. Something that terran lacks terribly and the other races have a ton of. Though it would still be a crutch to make up for the real lategame problems : terrible Terran T3, Z / P abilities to control the map, vision, bigger economy, and "risk free" units that create a very unbalanced efficiency in the lategame. You can't really go out on the map, they have more resources, and they have better units. Eh. Edit : yes, nostalgia's a bitch. | ||
JackONeill
861 Posts
- keeping the cyclone tornado but lowering to 3 dmg flat and lowering its rate of fire to like 0.15 instead of 0.10 (which is like 20 DPS instead of 30 and 50 vs armored), able to hit air and ground - give it 125 HP, 2 supply, reactorable for like 150/75 - reverting the speed nerf - give it a strong lock for air and ground This way you have a unit that's a bit costly, fragile, but fast and versatile. 3 damage with lower ROF tornado blaster would make a nice backup weapon for the lock's cooldown that can for instance help somewhat with interceptors or mutas. | ||
DomeGetta
480 Posts
On July 21 2018 13:09 DomeGetta wrote: Yah so basically in a nutshell if u throw ur army into a meat grinder position as zerg then ur army loses, which doesnt necessarily lose u the game. Likewise if u move into the zerg meat grinder even with a ton of ghost on creep as terran ur army loses.. and because z can expand and hold expansions easier along with spend the money easier its z favored. I dont think its accurate tho to say that terran has stronger late game units. They can definitely choose to turtle into a position that would force zerg to trade poorly..but since that is a losing strategy you dont actually see that at the top level of play. What you see if the zerg survives to late game is an exploding bank and larva count as the zerg refills his max army a bit rounding out the proper comp a bit at a time while the terran is trying to deny him bases or push his creep back while being unable to take his own bases. Hours and hours of these games on innos stream vods. Main idea for me is that i hope blizzard looks at raising the skill cap for all races at all stages of the game for the next big update. I personally (for the reasons ive stated in multiple posts on this thread) think the late game units broodlord/carrier/tempest need to be looked at for the same reason the raven was. Also think mech should be relooked at or removed from the game. Turtling should not be incentivized for any race....no one wants to watch it. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/287272458 For you visual learners- watch Dark vs Alive on Acid plant (right around 1 hr 50 min in) Basically a literal representation of what's being discussed here - With a hilarious ending that I love even as a Terran. Not even gonna go into how it was off of a super aggressive opening which Alive held pretty well. Now Dark is clearly a way better player than Alive - but the way this game plays out is almost exactly what we've described. For fun exercise: Post what you think Alive should have done better from splitmap P.S. anyone got deja vu from Dark v Maru on backwater?! | ||
Carminedust
487 Posts
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