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This is a good PR. I really like the fact that you are not afraid to make decisions like putting Jangbi on #1. I don't know if he deserves it, but surely noone else does. The only other possibility would have been to leave the first place empty (which I would be fine with). Jangbi has been consistent for quite some time and is playing decently all around, qualifying for most leagues and playing consistent in PL. So why not put him on top until finally someone steps up his game again and deserves this spot again (maybe it will even be Jangbi).
Regarding the Top 5 (and I absolutely don't care about 6-10, wouldn't rank them anyway) I just think you have been too strict with Bisu. He should be third in my opinion, he is at least in GOM and Flash+JD are not that awesome right now. So my ranking would have been: 1.Jangbi 2.Leta 3.Bisu 4.Jaedong 5.Flash (I think JD is doing slightly better because he actually is able to beat top players regularly, Flash is not right now)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: a well-written, informed post
Thanks for the comments Ver, some great feedback from you.
I think our overall view of the recent games Flash, Jangbi, and Leta have played is a little different.
First, Leta:
While it's definitely true Leta is safe & standard, I think you're discrediting him too much. Leta's biggest attribute is his ability to make the correct decision in any given situation. Right now, he is playing what I'd call the 'smartest' StarCraft of any pro. Over any given sample of games, any player will make good decisions and bad decisions. The strength of Leta's play is that he makes the right decision almost without fail, which is exceedingly rare even among the cream of the crop in ProGaming.
There's a lot more to Leta's game than build orders, I mean. You should watch a few more of his matches. While in many games between a top player and a lesser player slight leads can change hands several times over the course of the match, Leta holds a death grip on even the smallest advantage and rides it to a win. I think you should check out a larger sample size of his games, because the control over how a match progresses that he displays is unparalleled right now. Granted, his placement is more a product of other players underperforming, but he really does have a skillset that sets him apart from most players.
Leta also gets a little extra credit for being a rookie, but carrying an exceedingly heavy workload with no dip in consistancy. He plays very well in almost every match he is given. The game against Jangbi was tough, and is a large part of why I'm skeptical that Leta will succeed in a series against another top player. However, with recent events, those players have been punished this month. That, coupled with the manner in which Leta wins games (something very, very few players are even capable of - remember, this is how Savior used to win) puts him above the rest of the field this month. If only for this month, we'll just have to wait and see. I don't think anyone could argue that Leta in an upcoming semifinal is too unlikely.
Flash:
I may be a little harder on Flash than is necessary. This is because I know what he is capable of, and I can tell when he is not living up to that potential. The series against Bisu, which was fantastic, are the only three games Flash has played recently that displayed any semblance of the mastery to which we are accustomed. More important than his opponents is how well Flash himself plays Teran during those matches, and the average game from Flash has been of a lower level of play than the average game from Leta recently. This is tied to the fact that I think you're being overly harsh on Leta.
I don't think there's any question that Flash is capable of playing at a level we have never seen Leta play at, but he hasn't been delivering games at that level. Yes, Flash vs Bisu was incredible, but that's one series in a large pool of games that need to be considered. Flash can and should be playing close to that level constantly, because at this point in ProGaming where no title besides GOM is up for grabs, all we can guage placement with is analyzation of the matches these players play, regardless of the opponent. Like I said, maybe I'm too hard on Flash. Maybe I expect too much. That doesn't change my view that his average level of play is lower recently than it should be. When a top player plays against some scrub in ProLeague, we can't put much stock in the name value of the opponent. That forces us to focus on the actions taken by that top player during those games, and Flash's have simply been average.
Put simply, the way Flash has been playing, #3 would be completely undeserved if that series vs Bisu had never happened. It did, and he played well, that's why he's at #3. Nothing else he's done lately has been affirmation that he's the world's best Terran, as Leta outshines him again and again. I had to watch an awful lot of games more than once to reach this conclusion, though.
Jangbi:
As is written in the Rank, Jangbi's placement is merely a product of unsuitable alternatives. I agree, he should have been able to stop Shine's ling runby. Thats something I can't stand Protoss players losing to. Alas, no Protoss is perfect, and those losses happen pretty frequently. Jangbi certainly isn't the only victim. How many hydra breaks do we see against FE that could be easily prevented with proper scouting?
As I've said, the average level of Flash's play has dropped recently, despite the games ending in a victory. Jangbi's haven't. Last month he was top 5, a spot earned through solid play. Jangbi pulls more miracles out of his ass in PvT than any other Protoss, his PvZ is incredibly dangerous, and his PvP has settled into a strong rhythm. From reading your post, I get the impression that you're severely underestimating Jangbi's skill level. Bisu would have been #1, yes. Let's face the reality that in two matchups, Jangbi is at worst Bisu's equal, despite the fact that he doesn't really do anything another Protoss hasn't done before him.
So, with Jangbi's recent games against the host of scrubs every top player is forced to play every month displaying the same level of skill that landed him in the top 5 last month, where is the justification for any other player to replace him at the top? Flash's level of play has dropped, Stork is playing like steaming ass, Bisu flopped in both majors, Jaedong has been scraping by (for the record, I thought his game against Flash was a little ugly on both sides - this from a guy who is a big fan of those two players above any others on the Rank this month).. where does that leave us?
I wouldn't say Jangbi is more skilled than Flash or Bisu, but I definitely maintain that he has played at a higher level these past weeks, even if only because the rest have played worse than usual. Playing better is playing better, plain and simple.
I think it's pretty unreasonable calling Leta a 'slightly improved FBH', as well. His TvP is better than you think. It's incredibly hard to play TvP the way Leta does, but he does it very well. Hell, he killed free just a couple of days ago, a Protoss who is enjoying something of a revival in PvT.
To summarize, I really think you're underestimating the skill levels of Leta and Jangbi, particularily relative to the performances of other players recently. It isn't fair to say that Leta "can't beat top players", because that simply isn't true. Granted, we don't exactly have a lot of info to go on, but from watching his games and comparing them to the games Flash has played, there are major facets in every matchup that Leta is outperforming other Terrans in. While this is largely a result of Flash's recent complacency on the battlefield, there's no reason to place Leta below Flash just because Flash can play better. He must play better, and he really hasnt.
If you disagree with me on these points, then we are essentially at a standstill. I've got a lot of respect for you, so please don't think that means I'm dismissing what you say. At the end of the day I have to trust my ability to analyze two games by two players and compare the skill level displayed in each. It's worked pretty well for me so far, and this month it says Leta is playing better. You'll hear no argument from me that Flash isn't more talented, but performance must be king.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 10:58 SerpentFlame wrote: I disagree with the reasoning that Stork is being placed low (though he has been shaky in the last month) because he lost to BackHo. BackHo is terrible yes, but BackHo can (rarely) play excellently (let's not forget the MSL/OSL run from Spring 08), though BackHo almost always plays like a B-Class gamer (losing to Chalrenge, TT, etc.) I'm not trying to say that BackHo is actually good, merely that he can bring out an awesome game every now and then amidst an ocean of mediocrity, and that he brought out two of them against Stork. As thus, that set shouldn't count as a real blow against Stork's ranking.
To be consistent, if Leta is on the power rank for exhibiting a solid safe style of play that carries numerous Proleague wins, let's not forget that in the opening of last proleague season when he was beginning to amass wins (and playing at roughly the same excellent quality as he is now), Leta also dropped a longer game to BackHo, proving that losing to BackHo while BackHo is displaying a rare show of solid form shouldn't be considered a major setback.
Backho does play well on occasion, that is true. It's rare, but it does happen.
That doesn't change the fact that BackHo really didn't play well against Stork. Stork just happened to play even worse. It was an ugly, ugly series full of amateur mistakes on both sides.
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so much undeserved jangbi hate man =X
put july as CBNC!!!
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On January 16 2009 11:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: That doesn't change the fact that BackHo really didn't play well against Stork. Stork just happened to play even worse. It was an ugly, ugly series full of amateur mistakes on both sides.
There were some gaping holes in Stork's and Backho's play in game 1(and a few in game 2 as well), including some crucial dragoon formation mistakes by Stork and a total lack of micro at one battle by BackHo (not that it mattered at that point), but as far as the (untrained) eye of mine could tell, set 3 didn't contain any ugly errors by either side that any other top-class gamer wouldn't make. I'd be eager to hear about the mistakes made in game 3 of that set, if someone could enlighten me.
Additionally, what happened to the CBNC section? Is that still going to be in existance?
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fuck yeah jangbi, he plays like a beast
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On January 16 2009 03:37 NonConGuy wrote: YES Jangbi definitely deserves the #1 spot. Hate to see Stork drop that much, but hes not doing well at all.
Coming from a Khan fan lol.
On the subject of Kal, I agree that he is somewhat tied with Bisu for the spot of best PvZ now, since Bisu's PvZ has started becoming inconsistent. Kal's PvZ style is definately different from Bisu; Bisu relies more on defense combined with constant harrass while Kal is more likely to end it mid game with his huge army.
I actually agree with Ver with a lot of stuff he said, and Jangbi getting a free ticket over Backho is somewhat disappointing. As others mentioned out, Backho does create upsets once in a while, and if I had money to bet on between Backho and Jangbi at this point, I would have bet on Jangbi even though I know that Backho's PvP is his best MU. That being said, I think that Backho did have a chance to beat Jangbi, even if it wasn't likely. This free ticket gives Jangbi more time to study Free's PvP style over Backho's, which will really make me sad if Jangbi manages to triumph gom finals, because I feel that it is little undeserved.
Steve release next PR earlier next time so we can see Jangbi drop down from the #1 slot, since I'm betting that he'll lose to Bisu in finals
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Jaedong and Stork have nowhere to go but up
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I don`t agree with this one, eh, that`s it JD is stronger than Janggi(i`m not sayin` he should get #1) but oh well...u referred to JD's last 10 games to compare it with Jangbi...however since the last PR JD is 12-4 not 6-4, oh well, I guess I can`t agree with all the PRs also Leta is too high imo, again if JD couldn`t jump from #8 to top3, than why should leta jump from nowhere to #2 ?! I agree that bisu doesn`t deserve #1, as a matter o`fact no one does, but neither does JANGBI
one thing I agree about is Hwasin on the PR
oh and yeah, I COMPLETELY agree with Ver, very good post man!
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On January 16 2009 16:12 Jaeden wrote: oh and yeah, I COMPLETELY agree with Ver, very good post man!
if Ver would've compared JangBi to Jaedong, well...: Jaedong: -his lost to zero...it's ZvZ, we all know JD is the god of ZvZ, it`s just that BO, and etc...we all know what can happen` there -win over Effort..despite Effort's great stats and potential, I`m not goin` to give JD a whole lot of credit for that, it`s ZvZ he simply owns there -loss against UpMagic...well FS, I REALLY hope u`ve seen that game -hyvaa, keke, blabla easy wins -MSL survivor, some great games there + the fact that JD was very unlucky, I think we all realise what would`ve been the outcome of that game if that mine there didn`t hit. -win over Hwasin...again FS, I hope u`ve seen that amazing game -same with the win over Bisu -Kal...yep, this is the thumbs-down for Jaedong -Fantasy, great things happened in that match, queens worked wonders -Anytime, Shine, Clay, people that are easy wins, I don`t give credit for them, neither should Jangbi get any credit for beating this kind of opponents -And finally his win over flash, I think that JD was VERY well-prepared for that match, and simply run-over flash ->his games with FBH and Sea were counted for the last PR in case u are wondering why I don`t count them 12-4
ok and now for JangBi: -He only played PL games, no SL for this guy, just GOM in which he beat Pepe, cool -Win over Jaehoon... -Lost to shine[kal]... -Wins over really hwasin, Zero, and Leta yes this is pretty good, however JD won against Bisu, Hwasin and Flash, who is more impresive ?! -than a lost to Fantasy that shouldn`t happen, really, it shouldn`t, considering Jangbi's PvT(i`m not gonna point out that JD won against him, oh wait, I did ) -his win over Kal...Kal is weak vs P -and again, I`m not counting jangbi's lost to Effort since that was involved in the last PR 8-2
I think it`s enough
,but yeah, JD's case is pretty clear, even Flash has a better case than JangBi again I`m not sayin` JD #1 !!!..I would be fine with something like: #1 Flash #2,3 Bisu/JD edit: it`s not only statistic here, I actually watched the games oh and sorry for spelling, I made this post pretty fast, coz I`m in a hurry
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament.
quoting so more people can read this >.>
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ok now that I have time, and I`ve read it again, I disagree more Free should keep the PR spot, imo or even ForGG/Mind, one of them should be replacing FakeYellow, oh well, no big deal Also, if u put FakeYellow on the PR, he should be below Hwasin,imo. I agree about Hwasin(instead of Mind/ForGG), he plays great atm, so that's why he should be above FY who doesn`t play that great. I mean he only beat SangHo, Rock, 910, and Sea this month come to think of it more, maybe bisu is ok at #5, but even so, Flash should be above leta and jangbi, and so does JD, oh well.. stork is ok :D
edit: FS please read this, I would love to see a response
On January 16 2009 16:37 Jaeden wrote:+ Show Spoiler +if Ver would've compared JangBi to Jaedong, well...: Jaedong: -his lost to zero...it's ZvZ, we all know JD is the god of ZvZ, it`s just that BO, and etc...we all know what can happen` there -win over Effort..despite Effort's great stats and potential, I`m not goin` to give JD a whole lot of credit for that, it`s ZvZ he simply owns there -loss against UpMagic...well FS, I REALLY hope u`ve seen that game -hyvaa, keke, blabla easy wins -MSL survivor, some great games there + the fact that JD was very unlucky, I think we all realise what would`ve been the outcome of that game if that mine there didn`t hit. -win over Hwasin...again FS, I hope u`ve seen that amazing game -same with the win over Bisu -Kal...yep, this is the thumbs-down for Jaedong -Fantasy, great things happened in that match, queens worked wonders -Anytime, Shine, Clay, people that are easy wins, I don`t give credit for them, neither should Jangbi get any credit for beating this kind of opponents -And finally his win over flash, I think that JD was VERY well-prepared for that match, and simply run-over flash ->his games with FBH and Sea were counted for the last PR in case u are wondering why I don`t count them 12-4 ok and now for JangBi: -He only played PL games, no SL for this guy, just GOM in which he beat Pepe, cool -Win over Jaehoon... -Lost to shine[kal] ...-Wins over really hwasin, Zero, and Leta yes this is pretty good, however JD won against Bisu, Hwasin and Flash, who is more impresive ?! -than a lost to Fantasy that shouldn`t happen, really, it shouldn`t, considering Jangbi's PvT(i`m not gonna point out that JD won against him, oh wait, I did ) -his win over Kal...Kal is weak vs P -and again, I`m not counting jangbi's lost to Effort since that was involved in the last PR 8-2 I think it`s enough ,but yeah, JD's case is pretty clear, even Flash has a better case than JangBi again I`m not sayin` JD #1 !!!..I would be fine with something like: #1 Flash #2,3 Bisu/JD edit: it`s not only statistic here, I actually watched the games oh and sorry for spelling, I made this post pretty fast, coz I`m in a hurry
I mean, ok, you've said that Flash lost against top opponents, but what about JD ?
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On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.>
Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player.
Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players.
Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games.
Bisu is now out of both Starleagues.
You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent.
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On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent I`m not saying Jangbi beat only noobs, but I`m pretty sure Flash would've beat all the opponents that JangBi faced since the last month
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Am I the only one who thinks flash vs bisu games were not that incredible? Game on medusa, flash made his BO, took his 4th, waited for bisu to move, bisu made a recall flash countered, GG.
game 2: flash made a push, bisu stalled it with some nice goon micro, flash's push got there too late, arbiters out GG.
game 3: flash's gameplan was weak, taking a third expo on 1 factory on destination. This forced him to defend it really heavy from his main cliff and build suplies at his third, this made bisu attack his natural instead. Flash hanged on but got way behind, bisu did his recall and flash countered once again and it was quite exiting for a moment there...
Bisu played really well but Flash play was somewhat bad. He stuck to his buildorders and it didnt seem that he was that well prepared, plus he said he was sick maybe that has something to do with it.
The proleague game was much better, specially from Bisu. While flash did his same old on medusa bisu made a nice strat, 14nex into 4gate buldogtiming while doubleexpanding. From there bisu had greater econ and won a pretty slow but entertaining game. Flash displayed his awesome defensive skills handeling the 4gate bulldog really nicely without delaying his upgrade strategy. But bisu had too good economics.
I dont know.. im not too amazed by the GOM-series.
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On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent
So? It still boils down to this.
Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play.
We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable.
Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better.
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On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ?
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On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash.
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On January 16 2009 18:09 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ?
Who has Flash beaten that would suggest he's more capable of beating top progamers?
Please, name a single one.
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Honestly, Jangbi's game list does not impressive me at all. weak vP all around.
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