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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash.
again, the last MSL final has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this power rank
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On January 16 2009 18:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. again, the last MSL final has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this power rank It was at his argument, not the PR. What has Jangbi done to show he's improved since then?
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On January 16 2009 18:13 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:09 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ? Who has Flash beaten that would suggest he's more capable of beating top progamers? Please, name a single one. ok, I got ur point here, in your opinion flash>JangBi ( even though, I wasn`t referring to: Flash can beat top opponents, it`s just that he can beat those that JangBi couldn`t, and that`s why Flash could've been even more consistent)
howeveeeer, I repeat myself : please give me an argument of JangBi > Jaedong?
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On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash.
So where was Flash in the MSL finals? Oh, that's right, he lost to Yarnc twice in the group stages. The same Yarnc Jangbi beat senseless 3-0 later in the Ro8.
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On January 16 2009 18:17 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:13 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 18:09 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ? Who has Flash beaten that would suggest he's more capable of beating top progamers? Please, name a single one. ok, I got ur point here, in your opinion flash>JangBi ( even though, I wasn`t referring to: Flash can beat top opponents, it`s just that he can beat those that JangBi couldn`t, and that`s why Flash could've been even more consistent) howeveeeer, I repeat myself : please give me an argument of JangBi > Jaedong? Jaedong's been losing too much, Zero, Kal, UpMagic and Canata.
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and that sums 4, against Jangbi's 3, I don`t get it? he also played more games, and won more
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On January 16 2009 18:17 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. So where was Flash in the MSL finals? Oh, that's right, he lost to Yarnc twice in the group stages. The same Yarnc Jangbi beat senseless 3-0 later in the Ro8. You didn't address my topic, I never said anything about league advancement. You said, Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You also said Flash hasn't, but it doesn't mean Jangbi will perform better than Flash against the best. Also, their had the same record vs Bisu when he was hot, so Jangbi clearly plays equally at Flash's level. His skill hasn't drastically improved since the finals either. Don't try taking this offtopic. We do know how Jangbi will fair against top players. Oh, btw, I'm not arguing rankings, just saying you had a fallicious argument.
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On January 16 2009 18:17 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:13 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 18:09 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ? Who has Flash beaten that would suggest he's more capable of beating top progamers? Please, name a single one. ok, I got ur point here, in your opinion flash>JangBi ( even though, I wasn`t referring to: Flash can beat top opponents, it`s just that he can beat those that JangBi couldn`t, and that`s why Flash could've been even more consistent) howeveeeer, I repeat myself : please give me an argument of JangBi > Jaedong?
The same as FS's actually.
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I utterly loathe this ranking because it's very logical, but highly emotionally disturbing.
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On January 16 2009 18:24 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:17 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 18:13 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 18:09 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. that's from ur point of view Flash CAN be better, coz he CAN defeat all the opponents that jangbi couldn`t. also Flash > JangBi coz jangbi hasn`t proved anything special, just solid play, nothing exceptional. edit: oh and even if Flash failed against the best, what's ur argument for JangBi > Jaedong ? Who has Flash beaten that would suggest he's more capable of beating top progamers? Please, name a single one. ok, I got ur point here, in your opinion flash>JangBi ( even though, I wasn`t referring to: Flash can beat top opponents, it`s just that he can beat those that JangBi couldn`t, and that`s why Flash could've been even more consistent) howeveeeer, I repeat myself : please give me an argument of JangBi > Jaedong? The same as FS's actually. that JD lost more ? oh c`mon, JD played mooore games, and won more, against Tougher opponents, oh and please watch the games I just don`t agree with this PR at all, sorry FS I actually like the fact that u do the PR, just that this month is...imho
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On January 16 2009 18:20 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:17 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. So where was Flash in the MSL finals? Oh, that's right, he lost to Yarnc twice in the group stages. The same Yarnc Jangbi beat senseless 3-0 later in the Ro8. You didn't address my topic, I never said anything about league advancement. You said, Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You also said Flash hasn't, but it doesn't mean Jangbi will perform better than Flash against the best. Also, their had the same record vs Bisu when he was hot, so Jangbi clearly plays equally at Flash's level. His skill hasn't drastically improved since the finals either. Don't try taking this offtopic. We do know how Jangbi will fair against top players.Oh, btw, I'm not arguing rankings, just saying you had a fallicious argument.
Hence, why I said Jangbi >= Flash, not Jangbi > Flash.
And the bolded text is pure speculation on part. Are you going to use one series to judge Jangbi(vs Bisu in PvP 2 months ago) as opposed to a string of losses by Flash to top players within the past month? And you're saying I have a fallacy in logic?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 18:20 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:17 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. So where was Flash in the MSL finals? Oh, that's right, he lost to Yarnc twice in the group stages. The same Yarnc Jangbi beat senseless 3-0 later in the Ro8. You didn't address my topic, I never said anything about league advancement. You said, Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You also said Flash hasn't, but it doesn't mean Jangbi will perform better than Flash against the best. Also, their had the same record vs Bisu when he was hot, so Jangbi clearly plays equally at Flash's level. His skill hasn't drastically improved since the finals either. Don't try taking this offtopic. We do know how Jangbi will fair against top players. Oh, btw, I'm not arguing rankings, just saying you had a fallicious argument.
you're making wierd points and drawing conclusions that don't make sense. Jangbi's MSL second place was a hell of a lot more than what Flash had going on during those months. If the MSL final is so important, why on earth would it be Jangbi who has to improve to keep up with Flash?
And seriously, saying two players are equal because they both lost the same number of games to Bisu in series two months apart? what?
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On January 16 2009 18:30 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2009 18:20 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 16 2009 18:17 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 18:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 16 2009 18:05 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 17:57 Jaeden wrote:On January 16 2009 17:53 baubo wrote:On January 16 2009 16:52 MrHoon wrote:On January 16 2009 10:07 Ver wrote: I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament. quoting so more people can read this >.> Despite being a good post, I didn't actually find much of a point in it. Basically, he said exactly what FS said, which is the fact that none of them were clear cut best player. Flash's problem is that he's a proven failure against all top players. Jaedong had a case when he was tearing apart Bisu and Flash, but then he decided to become a mediocre player the last few games. Bisu is now out of both Starleagues. You can make an argument for any of them, but you can also make just as much of an argument AGAINST each of them. In the end, FS simply went with the "safe" players who are at least consistent. no, he was sayin` that Flash deserves #1 spot more than JangBi, and I agree if Flash would've faced only lesser players, he would be EXTREMELY consistent So? It still boils down to this. Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You don't know. I don't know. We do know that he has potential to be #1 based on his play. We do know that Flash failed against the best. This is undeniable. Hence Jangbi >= Flash. Flash maybe equal, but he cannot be better. Logical Fallacy: This translates into An integer( Jangbi) may or may not be bigger than 6/ Flash is less than 6. Thus Jangbi>=Flash. The point is Jangbi can fail harder (and has done so MSL finals?) than Flash. So where was Flash in the MSL finals? Oh, that's right, he lost to Yarnc twice in the group stages. The same Yarnc Jangbi beat senseless 3-0 later in the Ro8. You didn't address my topic, I never said anything about league advancement. You said, Jangbi may or may not succeed against the best. You also said Flash hasn't, but it doesn't mean Jangbi will perform better than Flash against the best. Also, their had the same record vs Bisu when he was hot, so Jangbi clearly plays equally at Flash's level. His skill hasn't drastically improved since the finals either. Don't try taking this offtopic. We do know how Jangbi will fair against top players. Oh, btw, I'm not arguing rankings, just saying you had a fallicious argument. you're making wierd points and drawing conclusions that don't make sense. Jangbi's MSL second place was a hell of a lot more than what Flash had going on during those months. If the MSL final is so important, why on earth would it be Jangbi who has to improve to keep up with Flash? And seriously, saying two players are equal because they both lost the same number of games to Bisu in series two months apart? what? I guess he was tryin` to say that JangBi doesn`t have what it takes to be a SL champion
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Johny and Davey: J: Hey dude whaz`up ? D: nothin` bro, u ? J: oh, I`ve got a question: Who do u think is the most powerful SC player atm? D: hmm, I dunno man, it`s kinda hard to say Little Jimmy comes around, after seein` the PR: -oh I know dudes, it`s JANGBI! -...?!
that sounded kinda weird :s
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United States2186 Posts
On January 16 2009 11:38 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:More juicy stuff. I like.
I do apologize for my tendency to overemphasize certain characterstics too much. I am very overtired right now so I hope this post isn't too poorly organized. I argued in the first post that Flash has a better overall argument than Jangbi for what you used; this time I'll try to elaborate how I think things through and why I value certain characteristics higher.
I think I see a reason for the discrepancy between our views (besides the fact that I have not seen all of Leta's games).
In my mind the #1 player should be the player who is most favored to win a single's league final. Obviously the reverse is not true, but in past PR's the #1 player has either just won the final or was a previous finals winner and looks to be in a good position for another one. This breaks that trend and also puts the #2 as a player who has done nothing but play proleague and qualify. There's another argument here about how in PR history past greats have gotten preferential treatment since we know what they are capable of but I can't fully flesh it out right now.
The problem I have with Jangbi/Leta is that they are the same type of player, as far as I can tell, as Best or Sea: very strong proleague players but bad series players. Great mechanics, great decision making, overall very strong play, but they just lack the mental and psychological sides of series play. They don't have that 'something special' (this is conjecture on Leta though for he's totally unproven). Take Best for example: an undeniable proleague monster, holding up SKT with a very strong vT and vP and even in his worst matchup by far he still racks up wins consistently. But then put him in a Gom ro8 series vs a decent up and comer. Skyhigh played well certainly but Protoss simply should not be losing on those maps to standard Terran play and Best looked like he was playing to lose. The proleague monster vanished and it was replaced by some guy who clearly didn't know what he was doing. That's what I picture as happening to Jangbi/Leta when they meet serious competition although not to the same degree.
+ Show Spoiler [SemiTangent] +
Jangbi's starleague performances hold to this: He's made the semifinals three times now with by far the best brackets possible. In GOM MSL S4 he made his to the semis by going through the insane bracket possible of Memory and Yarnc until he outplayed but was outsmarted by Kal. In Clubday he got faced with the joke that is Upmagic's and Yarnc's vPs until he beat down a Kal that was on the lower side of his wild swings. I don't know about you but when I watched Bisu vs Jangbi I saw two people in two different worlds. In the one game Jangbi did win it was solely because Bisu made an egregious unforced error. In every other game Bisu set the tone and controlled the game. It was the difference a player who knows exactly what they are doing and a player just trying to play normally. Now in GOM 2 Jangbi had to go through dropping with a loss to Shine of all people, an out of shape Iris and the ever terrifying pepe so that he could get a free pass to the semifinals all on incredibly advantageous maps (sadly you can't ever count out Backho no matter how dumb he is). Back in Clubday I felt Free was a better PvPer than Jangbi in series play but Free is looking pretty sloppy lately so Jangbi will probably take this semi series. What happens in the final completely depends upon Bisu's mental state imo. If he takes this loss like he did losing to Mind a year ago he's done for, but if he can stay mentally strong I see no reason why a Clubday repeat won't happen. Jangbi has never shown that he has what it takes to win series vs the best players because great play without direction does not cut it in those games and his current form is nothing outside the norm.
With Leta all I can do, as with you, is speculate of course. To me he looks a lot like Sea and early Flash in many ways. Fresh out of the gate, extremely strong TvZ/TvT and decent TvP (my FBH remark was probably too much but that game against Jangbi was just so bad). Note that early Flash did not particularly play towards his intelligence like he has in 2008; I see Leta going the same route, beating down baddies and losing to a strong player in some series.
Like you I am very hard in Flash because at his peak he was just unbelievable, but I think the major difference is Flash playing intelligently vs trying to play towards his mechanics and right now he is doing the former just without his invincible aura of before. Yes, games like v Stork exist where he slipped up badly. But he and he alone is winning against Protoss on the most imbalanced TvP mapset there could possibly be showcases a lot towards his improvement in his brain usage.
I do disagree (having watched all of Flash's games) that he is playing worse overall than Leta/Jangbi. I think Flash has played at a pretty stable level since losing to Jaedong's 9 pool back in October. Do you? Can you provide some specifics to his bad performances? In my view, Flash has played poorly vs Stork, Jaedong, and Guemchi with a mediocre performance (relative to current state) against Movie and Chalrenge and maybe Casy. I do agree he should be lower if he hadn't played vs Bisu but I feel he would be at the same level as Jangbi then while worse off than Leta. Maybe I'm not missing something but I can't see his overall level of play (for as little as we can tell with such bad competition) being bad at all.
Leta and Flash have had absolutely no trouble versus their clearly inferior opponents; the only differences are that Leta lost on Medusa to Bestgod while Flash rapes Rock Jaehoon and co silly on these maps, and being able to take a game off that Bisu on Medusa is just a big !!!. Add this to Flash's spectacular Destination build and hopefully you can see why I favor Flash's TvP as being a stronger way to rate him than Leta's TvT/TvP mix. They have to be judged this way as outside of Jaedong and Effort all their Zerg opponents have sucked and neither player looks better than the other here imo.
Jangbi is a little weirder and on second glance I'm having trouble seeing where you find his strong points (I can see it with Leta though). Here's my brief take on his play: in the first half vs Hwasin was frankly bad because Hwasin of all people should not be getting any kind of advantage against Jangbi, but he made up for it in the second half with some stellar moves. He won vs Zero because he's a better player using a better build and along these lines he won vs Kal with a build order win and better play. He stomped down a very inferior player in sea.really and playing pepe on Medusa/Neo Req shows nothing. Vs Leta he played his normal PvT level and massacred him. He lost vs Effort because of some bad unit and combat choices despite incredible harassment. He lost vs Fantasy because he played well below his normal PvT level, just like Flash v Stork.
TBH after watching all of Jangbi's games I like Leta's play more than Jangbi's. There just really isn't anything special at all there besides his PvT (which again is hard to judge given maps + bad opponents) which still isn't near the level Bisu showed v Flash. Can you point out where Jangbi has distinguished himself? All I've seen for his better levels is how he was able to pull himself out of deficits he got himself into in the first place (or lose from advantages he got with good play) as well as some strong harassment vs players who couldn't defend well. I agree I was too harsh on Leta but I think 'inconsistently solid' describes Jangbi quite nicely. I don't agree at all that he has shown that he has two matchups that he's on par with Bisu. The PvZ now is debatable but the Effort games imo showcase the differences nicely before the qualifications at least, I have never seen Jangbi play at the level of PvT Bisu showed in those four games, and we have to give Bisu the nod for his PvP based on the scant evidence recently.
Jaeden, if I were to compare Jaedong to Jangbi I would show that Jaedong is making strides to combat the considerable matchup advantage Terrans have had for a long time (because Zergs are stupid and oov is smart, not imbalance or maps) and has been remarkably successful with it. He has been inconsistent though and still hasn't found a solid answer for mech, which would merit a lower placement than Flash, higher than Jangbi, and anyone's call vs Leta.
Anotherday that just shows that you can downplay any game if you want. I can do it too. 'Oh Savior vs Iris was just Savior playing his normal build while Iris was overaggressive, suicided lots of units, and didn't scout Savior's expo.'
Game 1: Flash deviated from his normal build by delaying the 3rd cc to counteract Bisu's harass (on pure prediction), then he made his 4th cc while still on two facts all while denying Bisu information that crucially threw his timing off. That is a) not his normal build at all b) one of the best showcases of intelligent play in a long time to combat one of the most retarded maps in a long time (Hi Katrina or Longinus II).
Game 2 Flash pulled a nice trick + ob kill to get a massive advantage and Bisu stopped it by pulling out stuff only Savior would do; no other Protoss would've won the game when Flash moved out. Dismissing it as 'delaying with goons' is um...silly?
Game 3 Flash makes an excellent build for a map that is nearly impossible for Terrans who don't 2 fact, Bisu spots the weakness and gains an early advantage with a very daring attack. Bisu's play in winning from the very disadvantageous position he had after losing his first army was nothing less than superb and beyond any other Protoss's level. When Flash gets in that position he never loses (i,e see Flash v Jangbi at colesseum).
Game 1 shows that Flash is the only Terran who can beat absolute top notch opponents on Medusa. Games 2/3 show that Flash can gain decisive advantages on unfavorable maps while Bisu can turn those decisive advantages around when no Protoss has been able to in the past.
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I'm surprised you didn't put July in the PR. He's doing rather awesome right now (8-2 in the last 10 games, 9-1 if you'll only include PL games) and his current streak of 7 consecutive wins is quite outstanding, especially for someone who plays Zerg.
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I disagree with you Ver. I dont think the series was good. It was too big names and games were pretty long but Jangbi vs Flash on colloseum was much better.
Ofcourse i can try to make every game ever played sound mediocre, but the difference is that when I can tell a game isn't mediocre i wont try to.
Flash's build on destination was not exellent. I dont know how to explain it but that map isn't suited for the flash build (being early upgrades and fast third), it is too hard defending a fast third, especially on 1 factory. It might be possible if he did his normal 2fact before 3rd CC but its still hard. I don't think flash played at his full potential either.
The game on medusa was really only a display of poor decisionmaking by bisu. At the moment flash moved out to take his fourth, flash had very few units and bisu very many. He could just have broken him there, but i guess Bisu thought flash had 2 fact before 3rd CC that game, since its usually what he does, so he was afraid.
The game on chupung wasn't good at all. The thing he did with his goons was not that amazing. Flash did a normal fast push and he failed, that game was the worst out of the series. I can think of many protosses who could pull that thing of with those goons. Flash's decisionmaking was poor that game.
Two really great names, and two pretty long games. But the quality wasn't that good in my oppinion.
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On January 16 2009 19:58 AnOth3rDAy wrote: Two really great names, and two pretty long games. But the quality wasn't that good in my oppinion.
I agree with you, I don't really understand why this series is so hyped. I basically feel that Flashs harrasing has been horrible and therefore his 3base turtle will get overrun by very good protoss players who realize that they just need to take 5+bases (on a map that is suited for it). The BO will work against any mediocore protoss but not against the best. I also believe that game 1 in the series was more Bisus failure than Flashs win. And the PL-Match between Bisu and Flash is just meh. Sure, he defended well against this Shuttle/Front break, nearly noone could pull off something like this, but he was at one factory until nine minutes in the game. This is just ridicoulus, you will never compete with i.e. Bests macro with such a build.
I often get the feeling that a lot of people here confuse long games with good games.
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you know what would have made this power rank awesome? if you put savior at ten, then banned anyone for disagreeing with you haha
and you can say "the last msl has no effect on this power rank" all you want, but part of your reasoning for bisu's drop is his outing from "both" leagues...
savior beating the #1 MSL seed, #1 ELO is just as deserving an argument for #10 as whatever you said about yellow
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On January 17 2009 01:12 d_so wrote: you know what would have made this power rank awesome? if you put savior at ten, then banned anyone for disagreeing with you haha
and you can say "the last msl has no effect on this power rank" all you want, but part of your reasoning for bisu's drop is his outing from "both" leagues...
savior beating the #1 MSL seed, #1 ELO is just as deserving an argument for #10 as whatever you said about yellow
hero also beat bisu, hero for #10? but i guess you're just kidding
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