I completely agree on every point you make! I hadn't thought about why zerglings were so damn rubbish after the first few minutes of the game but you explained that very well
[SC2B] Zerg: The Evolution (or Devolution) - Page 10
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EquilasH
Denmark2116 Posts
I completely agree on every point you make! I hadn't thought about why zerglings were so damn rubbish after the first few minutes of the game but you explained that very well | ||
Lovin
Denmark812 Posts
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Paladia
802 Posts
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StayFrosty
Canada743 Posts
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
On April 21 2010 12:59 IndecisivePenguin wrote: As am I Lollersauce. I wonder what it would take. These 2 people said everything I was going to say! Except... GREAT POST! I thought it would be coming from Drone or Nazgul but you did just as well at writing this and I don't think they could've done it much better themselves! Except for 1 grammar error I noticed(hint: talking about worms). | ||
shindigs
United States4795 Posts
I disagree that zerg has gotten super bland lately but I your points definitely convinced me that Zerg just isn't the same race we've all come to know and love. However, I think that the community can do enough to make SC II Zerg live up to its predecessor. | ||
Smurfz
United States327 Posts
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max1c
Ukraine34 Posts
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Medzo
United States627 Posts
On April 22 2010 04:19 Archerofaiur wrote: Id like to point out just how superior MULEs are in terms of decision making to Spawn Larva. Similar features can be demonstrated with Chronoboost. Energy Tension Great tension with Scanner Sweep although admitedly Calldown Supply is probably lacking. Temporal Decision Making (When do I cast this?) Very well done. There are many times when players will hold off on Callingdown MULEs incase they need Scanner Sweep in the near future. Spacial Decision Making (Where do I cast this?) Incredible due to the cast anywhere capabilities of the Orbital Command. This decision making is enhanced by mineral heterogeneity, for example some mineral patches will return 270 minerals during a MULEs life and some will return 240 depending on how far they are from the CC. Mineral heterogeneity also arises from which mineral patches have been MULE mined more than others. IT pays to spread your MULEs across different mineral patches to avoid depleting one mineral patch and therefore increases SCV saturation (which decreases intake rates longterm). Further example of heterogeneity comes from gold vs normal minerals or from island expansions vs regular expansions. Players have to wiegh risk vs benefit in all of these scenarios. Furthermore MULEs can be used to repair. Comboed with cast anywhere this makes the MULE a Scanner Sweep for repairing. Innovative uses include saving burning CCs and even field repairs of an attacking force. All of which requires good spacial casting decisions made by the player. Now I ask you, where are these decisions for Zerg? In short, The decision making is how to spend the larva not how to cast the ability. At certain points in the game its actually quite a difficult decision to make. Specifically regarding your first 3 larva injections. If you over-drone then you could be crushed, and if you go overboard on units you fall behind on econ. You have to scout and make a decision based on your opponent. | ||
gaizka
United States991 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 22 2010 05:57 Medzo wrote: The decision making is how to spend the larva not how to cast the ability. Thats the point. That is just about all the decision making there is and just to be counting correctly that isnt even a decision involved with casting Spawn Larva. You cast Spawn Larva and 40 seconds later you make a decision about what to make with your larva. So no saying "you can make decisions later in the game" doesnt count as the ability itself having decision making. This was the same for Proton Charge. Proton Charge didnt have decision making even though you got minerals and than could make decisions with those minerals. Now if the Proton Charge was replaced because of not enough decision making tell me why Spawn Larva shouldnt be as well. | ||
Medzo
United States627 Posts
On April 22 2010 06:04 Archerofaiur wrote: Thats the point. That is just about all the decision making there is and just to be counting correctly that isnt even a decision involved with casting Spawn Larva. You cast Spawn Larva and 40 seconds later you make a decision about what to make with your larva. So no saying "you can make decisions later in the game" doesnt count as the ability itself having decision making. This was the same for Proton Charge. Proton Charge didnt have decision making even though you got minerals and than could make decisions with those minerals. Now if the Proton Charge was replaced because of not enough decision making tell me why Spawn Larva shouldnt be as well. Deciding what to use your larva on is a big decision. Easily as big of a decision as saving for scan. If you make the wrong decision at any moment it can cost you the game (against a skilled opponent or even just a lucky one). Also there is a small decision to make when choosing where and when to start your creep tumors. And I would argue that it takes more apm to manage the queen's abilities if you include creep tumors. Yes there is only a very small window of decision making regarding casting inject larva or not. That is the nature of the queen. It doesn't mean that there is less decisions to make for a zerg player regarding macro though. | ||
Medzo
United States627 Posts
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baskerville
541 Posts
Zerg is stale because they are saving units for the next 2 "expansions" the same can be said for the game as a whole ... the 2 expansions will (like BW for SC1) showcase other units for sure, and like for BW ... the same question will arise: do you want your starcraft with valkyries, lurkers and complete mind control or without?... don't get me wrong, it's by far the best rts, and i will buy it but SC1 made it's success with a very important notion: fun the "infest thor" is not nearly as fun and vital as the defiler, brood lords will never be as fun as lurkers, and mostly the mass roach fest in zvz is definitely not fun oh .. if i may, our esteemed postwriter just omitted the fact that now under the rule of a cunning freak mutated female terran ghost, the Swarm has to evolve just let's hope blizz doesn't take it out on the lurkers | ||
Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 22 2010 06:14 Medzo wrote: Proton charge was just an ability that increased your mining rate. You had to use it but it offered no decision making at all in any form. Spawn larva gives you 4 extra larva, now choose. Larva are a resource. Minerals are a resource. Spawn Larva gives you more of a resource. Proton Charge gives you more of a resource. At some point in time you then choose how to spend that resource. You do not make the decision of what to spend your resource on when casting Proton Charge/ Spawn Larva. Now if you had to choose what unit to make from that larva as your casting (like Chronoboost does now) than Spawn Larva would have decision making. Do you see the difference? | ||
Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
And yes, I agree, zerg hive needs a boost. | ||
Wintermute
United States427 Posts
On April 21 2010 14:18 IdrA wrote: as for roaches, did goons really have a special defined role in sc1? they were just kind of a powerful all purpose unit. that kind of thing isnt necessarily bad. and really given the burrow harass and regen, and the fact that a tiny range is its limiting factor, the roach is more unique than the equivalent sc1 units. The problem I have with roaches as "generic ranged unit" is that hydras are/were already the "generic ranged unit." Roaches and hydras are basically just variants of each other. Roaches emphasize being meaty and hydras emphasize being dangerous, but in the end the combination of roach/hydra servers exactly the same purpose as mass hydra in SC1. You've got an extra unit that exists just to be an extra unit. Either you have weak roaches that act like Hydralisk Jr or you have roaches that are much stronger than what we have now, and they they basically act as a replacement for ultralisks. In general, doesn't it seem like ranged DPS units are overdone in SC2? Terran went from marines to marines + marauders. Zerg went from hydras to hydra + roach and protoss went from dragoon to stalker + sentry + immortal. At least in the case of protoss they all have some unique abilities to differentiate them. When it comes down to it, can you express a functional reason for the existence of roaches? Do they really bring an element to the game that SC1 hydras didn't? The only thing I can think of is that they make zerg more vulnerable to early air, which they wouldn't necessarily be with a more functional general purpose hydralisk. | ||
Synwave
United States2803 Posts
On April 22 2010 06:20 Sadistx wrote: That' quite a lot of text for what essentially boils down to "buff zerg hive please". And yes, I agree, zerg hive needs a boost. Oversimplify much? He made a lot of good points. Deconstructing it to this point shows you didn't really put any thought into his points. I play zerg, I love zerg, zerg are fairly boring. This has been stated a number of times. It isn't that zerg is weak, its that zerg is boring in relation to the other races. The OP covers a number of reasons why, it is hardly a 'buff hive' article. | ||
Saracen
United States5139 Posts
EDIT: + Show Spoiler + On April 21 2010 12:53 Half wrote: I totally agree with your analysis on the zergling problem, heh, I was actually making a thread about it and was looking for replays that illustrated it very well -_-. /shoehorns what I wrote into this thread? Zerglings in SC2. 1)Units clump more making surround less viable while at the same time making it easier (Lowers skill cap + Lowers skill scaling...lolwut...) 2)Zergling dps nerfed by ~20% due to easier early game surround (While late game surround becomes much less viable) 3)Zergling are now are obsolete meatsheilds due to the existence of the statistically superior roach 4)Zerglings are now obsolete as efficient dps due to the existence of the buffed hydralisks, who while doing much less dps per cost, scale effectively into lategame with higher dps per space (aka will be able to fit more in in a concave to attack) and ranged attack (same as prior+more versatile). 5)Need to tech to t2 for antiair. 6)Zerg now have effective anti-building units in the form of the hydralisk, which will actually outdps zerglings after getting enough hydralisks (As no more lings will be able to fit in) 7) 8)npd narco has recently coordinated a massive drug bust on cocaine usage by zerglings. (~25% crackling dps nerf) -Why this is bad- As a result, zergling no longer fulfill their iconic roles as damage dealer with darkswarm and ultralisks, nor their iconic usage as disposable meat for the zerg army. Instead, they've been relegated to early game defenders and timing pushers, and lategame harrassers at best. The lack of zerglings in the zerg army have removed the dynamic control factors of having to micromanage unit groups with wildly different movement patterns (Mutalisks, lings, lurkers), and instead, unit group that are able to succinctly coalesce into this big blob of shit (Hydraroach) I would suggest a massive buff on crack for lings, and a slight nerf to speed. Crack>Speed. :o --------- In addition: The zerg suffer so much from overlap right now. Ultralisks overlap with roaches (as tanks) and broodlords (as t3 "ultimate" units). Zerglings can't find a place as damage dealers because of the predominance of hydralisks and the relative effectiveness of roaches (which food wise, are more effective at doing damage then zerglings once you get enough). Corruptors are finding a hard time doing anything considering the versatility of the mutalisk and the lack of a specialzied role. In fact, the corruptor probably has the single most boring, mundane role in the game, and is only used to counter mass collosus. This is incredibly strange because the zerg have the least units. Logically, they should have an easier time ensuring they all see play, but due to sloppy design and the inability to find a cohesive role for the roach, they see the least. The biggest issue is Hydralisk/Roach, which are simultaneously too different to conflict with each other, yet at the same time, too alike to instigate inventive playstyles. A hydraroach army does not play differently then a mass roach army does. Both simply try and from good concaves and positions, and autoattack (In large numbers). The roach desperate needs to be scrapped or returned back to its original role, and the role of tank given to the ultra while the hydras power raw power as dps unit needs to be given back to the zergling. The broodlord on the other hand needs to remain extremely powerful, but needs major vulnerabilities such as low HP which it currently does not possess. I feel like the treatment (lower dps) given the speedlings (A unit intended to dps and be meat) would be better served on the on the mutalisk, which instead receives better stacking abilities. The viking gets more of its damage shifted to +armored (just a bit) to compensate. After these changes, mutalisks should be made to effectively stack like they did in bw. Theirs no reason not to reward this kind of skill heavy, engaging, entertaining (both to spectators and to players) play, one which requires heavy micro. The mechanics should be changed however, the current situation requires constant clicking at the mutas feet. Keeping this, but increasing the amount of time until the units drift apart would be an effective solution and maintains engagement despite multi-select. At the same time, it wouldn't just be an -apm requirement. Spamclicking at the units feet drastically alters the way they move and behave, and requires a different kind of movement pattern on behalf of the player. Currently it does not provide enough gain, by providing more incentives, it doesn't just result in more skilled, yet objectively mindless play, it also results in creative usage of a unit as spamclicking air units requires you to move and position them in certain ways (For instance, you need to to make a judgement call between movement speed and how bunched your mutas are. spam clicking reduced the speed you can move them. It also rewards you if you make a bunch of small micro movements, instead of making longer movements across large areas, and thus, alters your playstyle and requires critical thinking on a situation by situation ) I'm afraid blizzard isn't taking these issues at face value though. I really wished they would rework several fundamental flaws in racial design, particularly in zerg, though I fear that they won't. I don't think its (entirely) out of finance/higher level decisions to mandate a june shipping date, I think a lot of the developers are just too fixated and attached to the things they made. Thats certainly understandable, but some things just aren't working. I remember reading that Dustin really has this personal attachment to the Roach. I do too actually, in its original incarnation. However, it no longer resembles the roach it was originally created as. Currently, some aspects of zerg play are simply not entertaining or engaging at all, like hydraroach. Quoting this because it looks like a lot of effort went into this post and it got lost way too easily. | ||
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