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There is a hidden rating wich puts you in leagues not ranks/wins/points. Thats why a dude in silver is sometimes favored vs a gold league player. Silver player hidden rating is higher than the gold players rating. Your hidden rating increases when u beat higher (hidden) rating opponents also decreases when u lose to lesser players. From time to time (it was never specified ) the systyem checks if it should promote/demote you. Thats why you just won a game vs some1 and u get demoted. Your hidden rating sucked, the system started the promotion sweep and u got demoted...easy.
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To give a bit of example of what Sadyque said, I'm pretty sure they made the matchmaking system similiar to WoW personal rating and they most likely promote/demote based on your personal rating (aka hidden rating) while we'll call your actual visible rating your "team rating".
I'm not sure if placement matches work same way, so rather then me guessing lets say you got placed in gold league. Lets say your personal rating is now 1500. You win 3 games against gold players for 20 Personal rating each your person rating is now 1560. Lets say you beat a platinum player in gold league, this will give you more personal rating, say 40, so your Personal rating is 1600 now.
I'm geussing they promote based on a combination of team rating and personal rating. If you go 50-50% your personal rating will remain steady and you will not get promoted very fast.
It's also important to note that your personal rating can be far ahead of your team rating and that when you win a game its based off your opponents personal rating. You might have noticed you got 20 points off someone and when you looked at their profile to see their ladder rank they weren't very high team rating wise, but they had a very good win/loss ratio aka a high personal rating to give you lots of points.
Its also important to note if you lose to a player ranked far below you and you have a high personal rating you might lose -16 points for the loss but lose more then 40 personal rating for it.
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I really hope this whole league bullshit gets a total rework when beta goes offline May 31st.. thats the biggest disappointment with SC2 so far imo, bnet 2.0 is crap
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I still just dont understand why blizzard didnt keep their original AMM system for warcraft 3. Your ladder rank was your actual matchmaking rank You played people within 6 "levels" of you, and above level 10 you started losing points (and levels) for losing games. An actual ladder to climb.
What do we have now? I just dont understand the point? has blizzard explained it? Why the system looks like it does? It makes so little sense to me. Why have a ranking system that doesnt show your actual rank?
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The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players. edit: example:
liquid.TLO plays 50 games and wins 40-10. So lets say 40 winsX20 pts - 10losesX20pts =600pts So TLo is at 1600 points. Now comes Ihavenolifeandgrindgamesallday.pwnzor... pwnzor plays 350 games and wins 200-150. So he has 200X20pts - 150X20pts = 1000pts So pwnzor has a 2000 rating.
Now decide wich of them is the better player...
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On May 20 2010 21:54 sadyque wrote: The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players.
Yeah, and i dont know about wc3's 6 lvl gap u said?? I frequently played 20+ lvl players when i was below 10... (i stopped for like 6 months (which reseted my rank) and restarted playing 2 times already).
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On May 20 2010 21:54 sadyque wrote: The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players. edit: example:
liquid.TLO plays 50 games and wins 40-10. So lets say 40 winsX20 pts - 10losesX20pts =600pts So TLo is at 1600 points. Now comes Ihavenolifeandgrindgamesallday.pwnzor... pwnzor plays 350 games and wins 200-150. So he has 200X20pts - 150X20pts = 1000pts So pwnzor has a 2000 rating.
Now decide wich of them is the better player...
yea but the way it is now, higher ranked players have it rough.. Keep in mind in War3, it was a much more solid game in terms of consistency, you wouldnt lose to a lucky newb who 2gate proxy you at all, in War3 nothing would catch you by surprise, the better player will win almost all the time.
In SC2, proxy/7pool or 7rax reaper is a tad too strong right now, and hurts significantly more than in BW.. so its easy to drop maybe one out of every 5 times it happens, even if you are White-Ra or Sen or someone..
And how it is for me, and I was only 1950.. I am favored every game so I win like.. 5 pts total, but every loss since im favored I lose like -20 pts.. making climbing VERY hard.. I guess I hit my "hidden peak" too soon before I was high enough rank because when I was climbing even like 1700, I was beating the 2000+ guys.. so now even if I get matched vs someone like nEans Im usually tied or slightly favored.
Im all for the "hidden rank" thing, but the whole being slight favored or favored shit resulting in such a significant chunk of your bonus points is not good. It should be like, 10 pts even, 12 pts slightly favored, 14 pts favored.. EVERY time. Its lame to lose 20+ pts to a cheese or a disc (OMG thats another thing, discs raped my record/pts bad, esp combined with the favored bullshit)
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On May 20 2010 22:20 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 21:54 sadyque wrote: The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players. edit: example:
liquid.TLO plays 50 games and wins 40-10. So lets say 40 winsX20 pts - 10losesX20pts =600pts So TLo is at 1600 points. Now comes Ihavenolifeandgrindgamesallday.pwnzor... pwnzor plays 350 games and wins 200-150. So he has 200X20pts - 150X20pts = 1000pts So pwnzor has a 2000 rating.
Now decide wich of them is the better player... yea but the way it is now, higher ranked players have it rough.. Keep in mind in War3, it was a much more solid game in terms of consistency, you wouldnt lose to a lucky newb who 2gate proxy you at all, in War3 nothing would catch you by surprise, the better player will win almost all the time. In SC2, proxy/7pool or 7rax reaper is a tad too strong right now, and hurts significantly more than in BW.. so its easy to drop maybe one out of every 5 times it happens, even if you are White-Ra or Sen or someone.. And how it is for me, and I was only 1950.. I am favored every game so I win like.. 5 pts total, but every loss since im favored I lose like -20 pts.. making climbing VERY hard.. I guess I hit my "hidden peak" too soon before I was high enough rank because when I was climbing even like 1700, I was beating the 2000+ guys.. so now even if I get matched vs someone like nEans Im usually tied or slightly favored. Im all for the "hidden rank" thing, but the whole being slight favored or favored shit resulting in such a significant chunk of your bonus points is not good. It should be like, 10 pts even, 12 pts slightly favored, 14 pts favored.. EVERY time. Its lame to lose 20+ pts to a cheese or a disc (OMG thats another thing, discs raped my record/pts bad, esp combined with the favored bullshit) We get it, you don't like Terran, it would be nice if you could save those complaints for racial balance discussions instead of complaining about it in every single post.
My biggest complaint about the ranking feature is the fact that you can be number one in your division and it still doesn't mean anything because many divisions have players with higher ELO, so you could be #1 Platinum div 65 and it doesn't matter because it might mean you only have 1100 ELO.
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On May 20 2010 22:26 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 22:20 Skyze wrote:On May 20 2010 21:54 sadyque wrote: The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players. edit: example:
liquid.TLO plays 50 games and wins 40-10. So lets say 40 winsX20 pts - 10losesX20pts =600pts So TLo is at 1600 points. Now comes Ihavenolifeandgrindgamesallday.pwnzor... pwnzor plays 350 games and wins 200-150. So he has 200X20pts - 150X20pts = 1000pts So pwnzor has a 2000 rating.
Now decide wich of them is the better player... yea but the way it is now, higher ranked players have it rough.. Keep in mind in War3, it was a much more solid game in terms of consistency, you wouldnt lose to a lucky newb who 2gate proxy you at all, in War3 nothing would catch you by surprise, the better player will win almost all the time. In SC2, proxy/7pool or 7rax reaper is a tad too strong right now, and hurts significantly more than in BW.. so its easy to drop maybe one out of every 5 times it happens, even if you are White-Ra or Sen or someone.. And how it is for me, and I was only 1950.. I am favored every game so I win like.. 5 pts total, but every loss since im favored I lose like -20 pts.. making climbing VERY hard.. I guess I hit my "hidden peak" too soon before I was high enough rank because when I was climbing even like 1700, I was beating the 2000+ guys.. so now even if I get matched vs someone like nEans Im usually tied or slightly favored. Im all for the "hidden rank" thing, but the whole being slight favored or favored shit resulting in such a significant chunk of your bonus points is not good. It should be like, 10 pts even, 12 pts slightly favored, 14 pts favored.. EVERY time. Its lame to lose 20+ pts to a cheese or a disc (OMG thats another thing, discs raped my record/pts bad, esp combined with the favored bullshit) We get it, you don't like Terran, it would be nice if you could save those complaints for racial balance discussions instead of complaining about it in every single post. My biggest complaint about the ranking feature is the fact that you can be number one in your division and it still doesn't mean anything because many divisions have players with higher ELO, so you could be #1 Platinum div 65 and it doesn't matter because it might mean you only have 1100 ELO.
... What the fuck are you talking about?? Where did I mention terran imbalance AT ALL in that thread? Other than mentioning 7 rax reaper, but ALSO MENTIONING 7POOL AND PROXY AS THE SAME EXACT THING.. You are fucking stupid, go kill yourself.
ALL RACES early game "cheese" rush are a tad too strong in this game. Thats clear. Doing a 2gate proxy can be significantly more devastating than it ever was in BW. It might be for the fact that units auto-target workers when theres units present now, which is the stupidest thing ever, or how workers are more fragile than in BW.
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Well ye there are more no1 platinum players out there. But in normal conditions if you are no1 plat u play mostly 1-3 rank plats from your and other divisions. So you kind know how you fare against other similar ranked opponents. Also...mostly just guessing here....there is the tournament. I figure there is gonna be a tournament at the end of each season(?) that will match players from top spots in each division. So from time to time you will know who is the best on server.
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On May 20 2010 22:00 Kuzmorgo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 21:54 sadyque wrote: The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players. Yeah, and i dont know about wc3's 6 lvl gap u said?? I frequently played 20+ lvl players when i was below 10... (i stopped for like 6 months (which reseted my rank) and restarted playing 2 times already).
I clearly said, the original wc3 ladder, as opposed to the one they have now. Come on...
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This is from my personal experience.
I started after the reset and I think went 4-1. Was placed in Gold. That's fine, I thought I belonged there. Fairly rapidly I was top10. I was sitting at #2 for quite a long while. Never got a promotion. The #1 guy in my ladder was over 100 points from me and I was ~40 points ahead of #3. Still no promotion. Now my ladder seems to have gotten more competative and I flux between #4 and #10. Those spots aren't that different. However, the #1 guy (same guy, also no promotion) is about 200 points ahead of the entire division. BNet2.0 seems really reluctant to promote players.
I can also say it seems top Gold players are better than middle platinum. Again, I'm sure they got platinum off placement and just kind of hung around the middle of the pack where gold also got placed there but had to work up to the top. I always have tougher games against top5 gold than I do 20th ranked platinum.
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On May 20 2010 22:26 Kyo Yuy wrote: My biggest complaint about the ranking feature is the fact that you can be number one in your division and it still doesn't mean anything because many divisions have players with higher ELO, so you could be #1 Platinum div 65 and it doesn't matter because it might mean you only have 1100 ELO.
The problem with that is each division's rating is compared to by people IN THE SAME DIVISION. That means you are number one rating against those in your division because your the best in your division, but when you look at a something like Plat Division 1, the people in division 1 who stay are there the longest have the highest rating. Blizzard ruined the ladder because the numbers from 1 division (visible rating) don't match another division in the same league.
My view: I'm in a silver division 256 (I'm bad and I'm proud to admit it!) When I joined, the division had 30 people, I was 10th, and a vast majority of people had a rating of 1000 (so I confirmed it was new,) 24 hours later my division was approaching 90+ players (meaning it had become full.) I took a week off to play other games (since beta doesn't matter, and I'm not grinding games until launch, ruins the fun if I'm already playing it all the time) and I return to be top 10 in a division (still 256) with only 50 people. I log off 1 night 7th and wake up 2nd because 5 people had graduated to gold. Blizzard hasn't refilled my division so I'm stuck staring at people with a rating of 1200-1300 and only like 5% <= 1000 rating. If my division isn't going to be refilled, the only difference between divisions is the age of the division. So I'd suspect if someone is still in a division # < 100, that the players in their division is fewer now than when it started, and that division X-20 (X being the last created division) will be peaked towards full of new people in their league. Once you hit #1 on platinum, the only thing you can do is probably keep winning until your rating matches the hidden AMM number (I'm using AMM since I don't remember what its called.) Which when achieved would make a comparison between the other divisions. Blizzard isn't renewing old divisions with new players, which makes me suspect that you won't ever see the old division #'s until a new season (assuming they will still exist like older Battle.net titles) in which all the Platinum players will have their visible rating reset (hopefully to the invisible number) and reshuffled into new divisions.
PS: My ladder says out of the 50 people, only ONE person has joined in the last week (which is what the arrow/ ! signifies, if you highlight the ! it tells you when they joined your division.) This game does NOT USE ELO. Rating != ELO in SC2... if that were the case, your rating wouldn't need to be reset during a promotion, and you would begin to see ELO range cut-offs moving up and down. New divisions forming would all have a unique range when its created (say Silver would be 1250-1400 at the start, gold would be like 1600+ to be examined for gold and bronze would be like 1000 before looking at a demotion examination.) As new players join SC2, the cut-offs would begin to fluctuate higher to keep a constant % of players in each division, or else Battle.net 2.0 fails because everyone will eventually reach Platinum even if they are copper.
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You dont beat better players than your current league. This is the reason you guys are not getting promoted. Im a platinum player (crappy player at 30ish plat...). When i started playing before the 1st reset i played on a friends account. He sucked...he was like 80th in the copper league with 30 wins 80 losses. It took me a long time to get to silver. By the time i got to silver i had like 80 wins 100 losses. This pretty much (i think) got me to a normal starter player hidden rating. From silver i had to win like 20-30 games and got promoted to plat. Its all about the hidden rating. Your are always given oportunities to play "slightly favored" opponents. If you beat those 70%(~) of the time you will get promoted eventually. But at the same time if you win vs those guys and lose vs lesser players your rating stays the same. If you beat only players of your level then its kinda obvious the sistem did its job perfectly and you are exactly were you are supposed to be.
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On May 20 2010 22:46 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 22:26 Kyo Yuy wrote:On May 20 2010 22:20 Skyze wrote:On May 20 2010 21:54 sadyque wrote: The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players. edit: example:
liquid.TLO plays 50 games and wins 40-10. So lets say 40 winsX20 pts - 10losesX20pts =600pts So TLo is at 1600 points. Now comes Ihavenolifeandgrindgamesallday.pwnzor... pwnzor plays 350 games and wins 200-150. So he has 200X20pts - 150X20pts = 1000pts So pwnzor has a 2000 rating.
Now decide wich of them is the better player... yea but the way it is now, higher ranked players have it rough.. Keep in mind in War3, it was a much more solid game in terms of consistency, you wouldnt lose to a lucky newb who 2gate proxy you at all, in War3 nothing would catch you by surprise, the better player will win almost all the time. In SC2, proxy/7pool or 7rax reaper is a tad too strong right now, and hurts significantly more than in BW.. so its easy to drop maybe one out of every 5 times it happens, even if you are White-Ra or Sen or someone.. And how it is for me, and I was only 1950.. I am favored every game so I win like.. 5 pts total, but every loss since im favored I lose like -20 pts.. making climbing VERY hard.. I guess I hit my "hidden peak" too soon before I was high enough rank because when I was climbing even like 1700, I was beating the 2000+ guys.. so now even if I get matched vs someone like nEans Im usually tied or slightly favored. Im all for the "hidden rank" thing, but the whole being slight favored or favored shit resulting in such a significant chunk of your bonus points is not good. It should be like, 10 pts even, 12 pts slightly favored, 14 pts favored.. EVERY time. Its lame to lose 20+ pts to a cheese or a disc (OMG thats another thing, discs raped my record/pts bad, esp combined with the favored bullshit) We get it, you don't like Terran, it would be nice if you could save those complaints for racial balance discussions instead of complaining about it in every single post. My biggest complaint about the ranking feature is the fact that you can be number one in your division and it still doesn't mean anything because many divisions have players with higher ELO, so you could be #1 Platinum div 65 and it doesn't matter because it might mean you only have 1100 ELO. ... What the fuck are you talking about?? Where did I mention terran imbalance AT ALL in that thread? Other than mentioning 7 rax reaper, but ALSO MENTIONING 7POOL AND PROXY AS THE SAME EXACT THING.. You are fucking stupid, go kill yourself. ALL RACES early game "cheese" rush are a tad too strong in this game. Thats clear. Doing a 2gate proxy can be significantly more devastating than it ever was in BW. It might be for the fact that units auto-target workers when theres units present now, which is the stupidest thing ever, or how workers are more fragile than in BW.
Troll successful?
I find the matchmaking system a little weird. I have ALWAYS been against opponents whom are favored/slightly favored/even
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On May 21 2010 00:25 Kambo_Rambo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 22:46 Skyze wrote:On May 20 2010 22:26 Kyo Yuy wrote:On May 20 2010 22:20 Skyze wrote:On May 20 2010 21:54 sadyque wrote: The war3 ladder was a ladder to grind. The more games you played the more rating u had. In Sc2 no matter how many games u play u still wont advance in leagues unless u actually beat better players. edit: example:
liquid.TLO plays 50 games and wins 40-10. So lets say 40 winsX20 pts - 10losesX20pts =600pts So TLo is at 1600 points. Now comes Ihavenolifeandgrindgamesallday.pwnzor... pwnzor plays 350 games and wins 200-150. So he has 200X20pts - 150X20pts = 1000pts So pwnzor has a 2000 rating.
Now decide wich of them is the better player... yea but the way it is now, higher ranked players have it rough.. Keep in mind in War3, it was a much more solid game in terms of consistency, you wouldnt lose to a lucky newb who 2gate proxy you at all, in War3 nothing would catch you by surprise, the better player will win almost all the time. In SC2, proxy/7pool or 7rax reaper is a tad too strong right now, and hurts significantly more than in BW.. so its easy to drop maybe one out of every 5 times it happens, even if you are White-Ra or Sen or someone.. And how it is for me, and I was only 1950.. I am favored every game so I win like.. 5 pts total, but every loss since im favored I lose like -20 pts.. making climbing VERY hard.. I guess I hit my "hidden peak" too soon before I was high enough rank because when I was climbing even like 1700, I was beating the 2000+ guys.. so now even if I get matched vs someone like nEans Im usually tied or slightly favored. Im all for the "hidden rank" thing, but the whole being slight favored or favored shit resulting in such a significant chunk of your bonus points is not good. It should be like, 10 pts even, 12 pts slightly favored, 14 pts favored.. EVERY time. Its lame to lose 20+ pts to a cheese or a disc (OMG thats another thing, discs raped my record/pts bad, esp combined with the favored bullshit) We get it, you don't like Terran, it would be nice if you could save those complaints for racial balance discussions instead of complaining about it in every single post. My biggest complaint about the ranking feature is the fact that you can be number one in your division and it still doesn't mean anything because many divisions have players with higher ELO, so you could be #1 Platinum div 65 and it doesn't matter because it might mean you only have 1100 ELO. ... What the fuck are you talking about?? Where did I mention terran imbalance AT ALL in that thread? Other than mentioning 7 rax reaper, but ALSO MENTIONING 7POOL AND PROXY AS THE SAME EXACT THING.. You are fucking stupid, go kill yourself. ALL RACES early game "cheese" rush are a tad too strong in this game. Thats clear. Doing a 2gate proxy can be significantly more devastating than it ever was in BW. It might be for the fact that units auto-target workers when theres units present now, which is the stupidest thing ever, or how workers are more fragile than in BW. Troll successful? I find the matchmaking system a little weird. I have ALWAYS been against opponents whom are favored/slightly favored/even
Yea guess that newb did troll me hard =/
But yea. it is very odd, from when I started my acct this past reset, I was never favored up until I got around 1800.. then after that, I have been favored EVERY game pretty much. It doesnt make sense =[
Ironically, I switched to zerg after I got 1800 since they said reset was coming, and I wanted to mess around.. so for the first few days I was really starting to think the whole "favored" thing had some connection to what race I played; Protoss never being favored, and zerg being favored every game.. but that wouldnt make sense, since I had 40 protoss wins and 0 zerg wins at the time. It was just odd, like as soon as I hit 1800 it flipped a switch..
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I got into Platinum with 1600 and 23-9, hope this helps whoever is interested in the ranking system.
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meh, i just find it to be complete bullshit that i used to go about 50/50 in the gold league, then the ladder reset and i fucked up my placement matches, and now im only winning like 1/3 of the time in the bronze league... a few of the guys i beat recently asked if i was in the plat division... i play guys who sit on 1 base 15 mintues into the game and have never played an rts before, and then i play guys who have a well executed strategy and an apm of like 160... i dont really care what 'rank' or 'division' or whatever i have, i just want to play agaisnt people who are at roughly the same skill level as me.
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I believe that if you don't immediately advance out of a league with like 10-0 after placement, it becomes harder to do so the longer you stay in the league.
When I botched a placement match, I was put into gold but was quickly promoted to plat after winning a handful thereafter.
In contrast, a friend of mine who regularly DC'd for some time in the past recently went like 20-0 in the top #1 ranking of his league and has yet to advance.
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I would point out that, in reality, the displayed rating in your division will have a fairly strong correlation with your chances for promotion, with the only factor that makes it not a perfect correlation being the bonus pool.
Consider a player with no bonus pool points and a matchmaking rating equivalent to 50/50 wins against Platinum players. If he is in Gold, his displayed rating will gain ~10-20 points per win vs a Plat player, while it will lose only 4-7 or so. As this continues, assuming the MMR is accurate, the player's displayed rating will increase.
Promotion occurs when the system determines that you are winning against players better than your current division a sufficient amount. If you are winning against players better than your current division by a certain amount, your rating will be increasing at a given rate - so most promotions will occur at roughly the same displayed rating.
The only wrench in this is the bonus pool, which could theoretically allow someone in Copper to get a displayed rating of like 3000 without ever achieving more than 50/50 vs Bronze players - but for the most part, your displayed rating is a vaguely good indicator of if you're going to get promoted soon.
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