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On August 07 2010 21:49 nemanja1503 wrote:
If Mat was suddenly turned into Chewbacca in SCII:HotS all my grudges would be gone.
Rwaaaaaaa. :-D
XD hahaha
You make a point there, though my biggest question is how they were able to get afoot on Chau Sara, an initial nuclear strike would of made alot more sense rather than just charging into the atmosphere. EDIT: And suddenly taking ground with a half-assed Dominion fleet.
I think you mean Char lol Well nukes definitely would have made sense lol dunno why they didn't use them. There are a lot of plot holes in respect to what happened between the parts where fleet crashes down trying to get guys to the surface and the artifact gets brought down. But I think it was supposed to be portrayed more as a desperate attempt to hole up after hitting the surface for Raynor and setting up a base camp so that the forces could be rallied. From there on it was the artifact helping them out lol It also shouldn't be too hard to get down if you think about it, because majority of the swarm wasn't on Char at the moment they invaded and if 5-6 battlecruisers can take on a huge force in-game imagine what they can do out of game like in the cinematic where the Hyperion flies in and rescues everyone. I'm guessing each battlecruiser could take on a good deal of zerg and so they just used a ton of bc's to carve a path through the sky and then dropped everyone in pods. But yeah what happens after they fall is a bit questionable unless the majority of the zerg forces weren't at Raynor's landing zone or something like that which they could easily have displayed in a few sentences.
I find a much larger plot hole in their choice for trying to link an awesomely fun map concept and the storyline if you chose to take down the spires haha. First majority of the fleet crashes down onto Char. Then, after you finally manage to barely set up an entrenched position, you decide to fly through the whole zerg flying swarm again and somehow set up a base on a platform getting past the fliers that are definitely around the place where they hatch them.
The number of plot holes in Char were just kind of ridiculous lol but I say it's bad execution again. They wanted to focus on Raynor and still keep it on a grand scale so we missed out on the whole operation and just saw the badly organized area that was Raynor's drop zone. It's entirely possible they dropped enough forces to hold off the swarm for a bit (and the swarm was only just recalled back to Char at that point so they weren't at their full strength)
and as for gripes about the story having similarities to Star Wars, similarities aren't necessarily bad. Star Wars was a good story, no reason why using the basic points means it's bad. People have been recycling ideas forever. And I'm out of time to write lol so I'll leave it at that
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On August 06 2010 19:35 alsowikk wrote: Anyone else notice how Tychus uses a lazer and waits so Raynor can see before he shoots. It's pretty obvious Tychus wants Raynor to stop him but Tychus has to go along with the plan since the suits reactor can be overloaded if he disobeys
Sorry, but ... no. It was only for theatrical reasons.
Why should Mensk be unable to overload the reactor, when Tychus is dead? The suit is still functioning - so the "kill switch" should function as well. Maybe one can argue, that Raynor destroyed the kill switch with his shot (a bit far stretched) but then I wonder, why they couldnt disable it in the first place.
Also: Why the f*ck didnt Mensk just overload the reactor? He knew - according to the communication going on - that Tychus was with Raynor & Kerrigan. Overload and everyone dies. Why should Mensk care about Tychus' life / the deal? He sacrificed Kerrigan in SC1. Why shouldnt he sacrifice Tychus?
I finished my 2nd playthrough today. I kept Dr. Hanson as long as possible, because I did her missions really early in my 1st play and wanted to get her opinion on the other missions. So I did Safe Haven just before going to Char (after Media Blitz, Secret Mission, ...). After Media Blitz. News Show against Mensk. Hating, riots, ... UNN - Donny: "My brother was on Tarsonis. I had a brother on Tarsonis". After Safe Haven: Kate: "blablabla - Colonists find their own planets, oppose the Dominion. They really like Raynor's" - Cut - Donny: "Aehh... go to commercials." Like the damn missions before didnt happen at all....
That stupid "select a mission when you want" design just slaughtered the story and removed all consistency. Similiar to the "Hey guys, I have this protoss friend, who told me if we dont save Kerrigan we will all die" - 5secs later - "Hey Jimmy, why do we work with the Dominion? Just to kill Kerrigan?" stuff :/
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They just didn't make a story worth their initial fans, those who lived and played the Starcraft and Broodwar universe. There ain't any additional detail to give, it's pretty clear for EVERYONE that lived those times. There's no place for discussion regarding this. It's almost an absolute statement.
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anyone else feel like the cut-scenes and story were rushed? and did anyone else laugh at the banshees flying/bombing like jets?
I have issues with the artifact it self, if the taldarim (how ever it's spelled) had most if not all (can't remember) of the fragments why didn't they put it together and use it to wipe out zerg where ever they pleased? don't tell me they didn't know how to use it, if a few terran monkeys can figure it out, I'm sure the protoss can.
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On August 08 2010 15:22 Anon06 wrote: anyone else feel like the cut-scenes and story were rushed? and did anyone else laugh at the banshees flying/bombing like jets?
What was funny about the banshees? I thought that was awesome looking.
On August 08 2010 15:22 Anon06 wrote: I have issues with the artifact it self, if the taldarim (how ever it's spelled) had most if not all (can't remember) of the fragments why didn't they put it together and use it to wipe out zerg where ever they pleased? don't tell me they didn't know how to use it, if a few terran monkeys can figure it out, I'm sure the protoss can.
Probably because they considered the fragments to be sacred relics, they wouldn't fiddle around with them to try to make something out of them
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Just finished it and, meh, kinda disappointed. Didn't think the story really had great flow like the original. And I agree about Kerrigan; Char was way too easy to take.
Will be interesting to see where it goes though.
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On August 08 2010 11:57 Zocat wrote: Why should Mensk be unable to overload the reactor, when Tychus is dead? The suit is still functioning - so the "kill switch" should function as well. Maybe one can argue, that Raynor destroyed the kill switch with his shot (a bit far stretched) but then I wonder, why they couldnt disable it in the first place.
didn't the suit just shut down his organs or something
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On August 08 2010 17:24 elmizzt wrote: Probably because they considered the fragments to be sacred relics, they wouldn't fiddle around with them to try to make something out of them
I find it funny that the artifact have been around for so long, and it could "cure" kerrigan like someone long time ago knew that "queen of blades" was going to exist
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On August 04 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote: I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted..
StarCraft had a nice story, but Brood War's was horrible, this one was by far better. At least something meaningful happened.
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On August 09 2010 02:58 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote: I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted.. StarCraft had a nice story, but Brood War's was horrible, this one was by far better. At least something meaningful happened.
Nothing meaningful at all happened, and at least BW's wasn't full of ridiculous plot holes and terrible characters.
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Also: Why the f*ck didnt Mensk just overload the reactor? He knew - according to the communication going on - that Tychus was with Raynor & Kerrigan. Overload and everyone dies. Why should Mensk care about Tychus' life / the deal? He sacrificed Kerrigan in SC1. Why shouldnt he sacrifice Tychus?
Because it wasn't a literal "bomb waiting to go off". It was a needle that could kill him on a button press.
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Blizzard has some amazing programmers, artists, and animators, but boy do they not have any good writers. It wasn't until I got back to the title screen and saw the SC2 logo that I realized I wasn't playing a sonic the hedgehog fanfiction or watching a Syfy Original movie.
Blizz also needs to lay off the opera music. That stuff is fine for Warcraft which is supposed to be corny, but Starcraft is supposed to have some dignity.
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On August 09 2010 04:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 02:58 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On August 04 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote: I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted.. StarCraft had a nice story, but Brood War's was horrible, this one was by far better. At least something meaningful happened. Nothing meaningful at all happened, and at least BW's wasn't full of ridiculous plot holes and terrible characters.
Are you kidding?
I don't know how you can consider the deinfestation of Kerrigan to be meaningless, it should have enormous repercussions, on the Zerg if nothing else, and with the Prophecy missions, it seems quite likely it is going to have more repercussions than that.
In contrast, nothing happens in Brood War. You could practically play only the first Protoss mission (the evacuation of Aiur) and then jump to Wings of Liberty and you'd have no problem following along, except wondering why some characters have disappeared. You know it's bad when shock deaths are used to replace character development, and there is seriously no point in killing off Fenix or Duke except to try to fake importance by killing off established characters. Aldaris' death should have had meaning, but it is instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.
The entire Protoss campaign dodges what could have been interesting development about reuniting the Khalai and Nerazim, but instead we're sent off to pick up random plot device crystals to power up the Xel'Naga Temple. Anyone complaining about the Artifact in Wings of Liberty might do well to remember that at least that furthered the plot. The Temple on Shakuras just eradicated all Zerg on the planet, when there was no real reason to have Zerg on the planet in the first place other than the need to have something to fight. Anyway, I would much rather have followed Aldaris and seen how he figured out that Raszagal was a tool of Kerrigan and mustered the Khalai against them, rather than the essentially meaningless grocery shopping we embarked on for the crystals.
It's also worth mentioning that none of those Protoss will ever impact the storyline until the very end of the game - Zerg Mission 7 - which is indicative of the importance of this story arc.
Then we get the UED. As I said above, people could play StarCraft and Wings of Liberty and would never know anything about the UED, nor know that anything was missing. An enemy without foreshadowing, without reason to be present, and without lasting impact. Utterly forgettable. And yet they are pretty much the core of Brood War, aside from the previously mentioned self-contained Protoss campaign. To put that in perspective, imagine if Wings of Liberty revolved around the Tal'darim, or if after StarCraft, the Zerg were never mentioned again and had no impact on the development of the storyline. It's that atrocious.
The UED shatters the Dominion, but 4 years later, the Dominion is back in charge of Terran space, just as it was at the end of StarCraft. They take control of the Overmind, but by the end of the expansion, the Overmind is dead again. Just as it was at the end of StarCraft. At the end of Brood War, Earth is a distant planet with no real impact in the happenings of the Koprulu Sector. Again, just as it was at the end of StarCraft.
StarCraft leaves us with Kerrigan knowing that the time of her ascension had come, so we already knew that she'd be the new force behind the Zerg. Of course, seeing her gain control of the Swarm was really promising. With a title like "Brood War" you'd expect this to be at the centre of the storyline, but it isn't. Instead, we get the completely insignificant UED. Instead of competing with interesting Zerg characters, like Daggoth or other Cerebrates or the new Overmind (I hate the entire concept of the new Overmind, incidentally. Talk about diluting the significance of characters, that lessened bothe the awesomeness of the original Overmind and the importance of Tassadar's sacrifice), she fights against these inconsequential Terrans. That's the "Brood War". There's a new Overmind, and it isn't even a speaking character! Or a character at all! The "eternal will of the Swarm" is relegated to the relative importance of a khaydarin crystal.
And Kerrigan herself is the worst thing in Brood War. In an attempt to transition her from the berserking creature of destruction she was in StarCraft into the cunning queen of the Zerg they needed, Blizzard made everyone she interacted with completely retarded. I can tolerate that Zeratul and Artanis fell in with her plans because Kerrigan already has Raszagal under her control, and people naturally fall in to the orders of their superiors. That makes Zeratul and Artanis merely look like docile, obedient followers rather than absolute idiots, but at least it's somewhat credible. Especially given that the Judicator Aldaris, the guy who is used to giving orders rather than taking them, is the only one who refuses to trust Kerrigan. Frankly, Aldaris may well be my favourite character in the expansion if only because he wasn't an idiot and looked halfway significant. He's perhaps the only Protoss character to have real character development. It pisses me off that they just killed him off for no real reason.
I can also accept Arcturus Mengsk allying with her. Sure, it is utterly retarded, but if we accept his statement of "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me", then it fits perfectly well with his stated goals. Either Kerrigan holds up her end of the deal and Mengsk rules again, or else the Swarm kills everyone, either way he gets his wish. Unfortunately, his speech in reaction to Edmund Duke's death shows that he apparently believed Kerrigan would hold up her end of the bargain. People who say Arcturus Mengsk was idiotic in Wings of Liberty should consider that at least he didn't trust Infested Kerrigan!
But what is really intolerable if that Raynor and Fenix ally with her. Why? Just why? Do you remember when Tassadar said that "death might be a blessing" if they faltered against the Zerg, or that the Swarm was an enemy who sought to "consume all sentience, all life" at the end of StarCraft? Because Fenix and Raynor apparently don't, and they were there! They're apparently "siding with the enemy they know against the one they don't"... yeah, the enemy they know will kill or infest every living thing in existence! What could the UED possibly do that's worse than that? Even if they somehow wanted to, I don't think it is even physically possible for them to be a greater threat than the Zerg. The worst they could do is use the Zerg to do what they would have done on their own. This is unacceptable idiocy.
So yeah, I have seen nothing from Wings of Liberty to make me think it is worse than Brood War. It's worse than StarCraft, certainly, but that's because StarCraft had a fairly simple plot, in which we discovered the world and the universe. It was fun and marvelous, as we thrilled in discovery. The Zerg were the great evil threat that had to be stopped at any cost. Simple and effective. Brood War had no apparent purpose to its storyline. It seemed like the goal was to make Kerrigan the dominant force in the Sector, but that was weirdly handled, with the Protoss and UED threads being pretty much entirely inconsequential, the Zerg characters being wasted and the other major characters being dumbed down for the purpose of making Kerrigan look impressive by comparison or killed off to create an illusion of significance. And then Kerrigan disappears to Char and lets everyone build up again. Wings of Liberty at least had a clear story again - the continuation of Raynor and Kerrigan's storyline. It's not as epic as the original, which may be why people were disappointed, and a lot of the early missions were filler, which disappointed me as well. However, it did what it set out to do fairly effectively, the Mar Sara, Ariel Hanson, Matt Horner and Char missions flowed well together, it was the Tychus and Tosh missions that intruded. Ironic, since the Horner and Hanson missions aren't core to the story and the Artifact fragments were, but the Artifact fragments are like the Uraj and Khalis in Brood War - they're plot devices, and of really no significance. it is made worse in that most of those missions deal with the Tal'darim, who are like the UED a completely underwhelming enemy - obviously an attempt to force some Terran versus Protoss conflict in the game, where there essentially never was before. The Ariel Hanson missions allowed us to see how Terrans had to cope with Zerg invasion, that felt very much like StarCraft, a bit like the early StarCraft missions, in fact, where the Magistrate and Raynor have to save the colonists from the threat of the Zerg and Tassadar's purifying Protoss fleet. Horner's missions are about the rebellion against Mengsk, again, a significant part of Raynor's character. It ends with a real blow - the only real blow in the campaign - being dealt to Arcturus, and is satisfying for that reason. People have mentioned Arcturus's incompetence for letting Raynor get away with all he did, but aside from Media Blitz, none of the fights against the Dominion had any real importance to Mengsk. This is illustrated by the fact that only in Media Blitz is the situation important enough for Arcturus to address you directly. The reaction may seem odd, but recall that Arcturus has been spreading lies through UNN for years, people are used to simply accepting whatever it says. Arcturus does try to claim the recording to be a fake, but people just don't believe him.
Tosh's missions are insignificant filler, and Tychus' are annoying - clearly the mission gameplay taking precedence over the story, a single mission to get the complete artifact would have been much simpler and less irritating to play through. The Moebius Factor was fine, though it had a theme more akin to that found in Hanson's missions.
I've got to say that Arcturus being behind Tychus was a mistake, however. At the very least, they should have made it difficult or impossible for them to communicate, because the fact that Arcturus was essentially spying on Raynor throughout the entire campaign makes his inability to prevent Raynor's actions pretty absurd. It's also curious why he set Tychus the task of killing Kerrigan, but on the other hand he must have suspected something - the Dominion were searching for Artifact fragments too (The Outlaws), despite Arcturus never showing any interest in this before.
So yes, in order of storylines, it goes StarCraft, Wings of Liberty, and Brood War.
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On August 09 2010 05:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Are you kidding?
I don't know how you can consider the deinfestation of Kerrigan to be meaningless, it should have enormous repercussions, on the Zerg if nothing else, and with the Prophecy missions, it seems quite likely it is going to have more repercussions than that.
In contrast, nothing happens in Brood War. You could practically play only the first Protoss mission (the evacuation of Aiur) and then jump to Wings of Liberty and you'd have no problem following along, except wondering why some characters have disappeared. You know it's bad when shock deaths are used to replace character development, and there is seriously no point in killing off Fenix or Duke except to try to fake importance by killing off established characters. Aldaris' death should have had meaning, but it is instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.
The entire Protoss campaign dodges what could have been interesting development about reuniting the Khalai and Nerazim, but instead we're sent off to pick up random plot device crystals to power up the Xel'Naga Temple. Anyone complaining about the Artifact in Wings of Liberty might do well to remember that at least that furthered the plot. The Temple on Shakuras just eradicated all Zerg on the planet, when there was no real reason to have Zerg on the planet in the first place other than the need to have something to fight. Anyway, I would much rather have followed Aldaris and seen how he figured out that Raszagal was a tool of Kerrigan and mustered the Khalai against them, rather than the essentially meaningless grocery shopping we embarked on for the crystals.
It's also worth mentioning that none of those Protoss will ever impact the storyline until the very end of the game - Zerg Mission 7 - which is indicative of the importance of this story arc.
Then we get the UED. As I said above, people could play StarCraft and Wings of Liberty and would never know anything about the UED, nor know that anything was missing. An enemy without foreshadowing, without reason to be present, and without lasting impact. Utterly forgettable. And yet they are pretty much the core of Brood War, aside from the previously mentioned self-contained Protoss campaign. To put that in perspective, imagine if Wings of Liberty revolved around the Tal'darim, or if after StarCraft, the Zerg were never mentioned again and had no impact on the development of the storyline. It's that atrocious.
The UED shatters the Dominion, but 4 years later, the Dominion is back in charge of Terran space, just as it was at the end of StarCraft. They take control of the Overmind, but by the end of the expansion, the Overmind is dead again. Just as it was at the end of StarCraft. At the end of Brood War, Earth is a distant planet with no real impact in the happenings of the Koprulu Sector. Again, just as it was at the end of StarCraft.
StarCraft leaves us with Kerrigan knowing that the time of her ascension had come, so we already knew that she'd be the new force behind the Zerg. Of course, seeing her gain control of the Swarm was really promising. With a title like "Brood War" you'd expect this to be at the centre of the storyline, but it isn't. Instead, we get the completely insignificant UED. Instead of competing with interesting Zerg characters, like Daggoth or other Cerebrates or the new Overmind (I hate the entire concept of the new Overmind, incidentally. Talk about diluting the significance of characters, that lessened bothe the awesomeness of the original Overmind and the importance of Tassadar's sacrifice), she fights against these inconsequential Terrans. That's the "Brood War". There's a new Overmind, and it isn't even a speaking character! Or a character at all! The "eternal will of the Swarm" is relegated to the relative importance of a khaydarin crystal.
And Kerrigan herself is the worst thing in Brood War. In an attempt to transition her from the berserking creature of destruction she was in StarCraft into the cunning queen of the Zerg they needed, Blizzard made everyone she interacted with completely retarded. I can tolerate that Zeratul and Artanis fell in with her plans because Kerrigan already has Raszagal under her control, and people naturally fall in to the orders of their superiors. That makes Zeratul and Artanis merely look like docile, obedient followers rather than absolute idiots, but at least it's somewhat credible. Especially given that the Judicator Aldaris, the guy who is used to giving orders rather than taking them, is the only one who refuses to trust Kerrigan. Frankly, Aldaris may well be my favourite character in the expansion if only because he wasn't an idiot and looked halfway significant. He's perhaps the only Protoss character to have real character development. It pisses me off that they just killed him off for no real reason.
I can also accept Arcturus Mengsk allying with her. Sure, it is utterly retarded, but if we accept his statement of "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me", then it fits perfectly well with his stated goals. Either Kerrigan holds up her end of the deal and Mengsk rules again, or else the Swarm kills everyone, either way he gets his wish. Unfortunately, his speech in reaction to Edmund Duke's death shows that he apparently believed Kerrigan would hold up her end of the bargain. People who say Arcturus Mengsk was idiotic in Wings of Liberty should consider that at least he didn't trust Infested Kerrigan!
But what is really intolerable if that Raynor and Fenix ally with her. Why? Just why? Do you remember when Tassadar said that "death might be a blessing" if they faltered against the Zerg, or that the Swarm was an enemy who sought to "consume all sentience, all life" at the end of StarCraft? Because Fenix and Raynor apparently don't, and they were there! They're apparently "siding with the enemy they know against the one they don't"... yeah, the enemy they know will kill or infest every living thing in existence! What could the UED possibly do that's worse than that? Even if they somehow wanted to, I don't think it is even physically possible for them to be a greater threat than the Zerg. The worst they could do is use the Zerg to do what they would have done on their own. This is unacceptable idiocy.
So yeah, I have seen nothing from Wings of Liberty to make me think it is worse than Brood War. It's worse than StarCraft, certainly, but that's because StarCraft had a fairly simple plot, in which we discovered the world and the universe. It was fun and marvelous, as we thrilled in discovery. The Zerg were the great evil threat that had to be stopped at any cost. Simple and effective. Brood War had no apparent purpose to its storyline. It seemed like the goal was to make Kerrigan the dominant force in the Sector, but that was weirdly handled, with the Protoss and UED threads being pretty much entirely inconsequential, the Zerg characters being wasted and the other major characters being dumbed down for the purpose of making Kerrigan look impressive by comparison or killed off to create an illusion of significance. And then Kerrigan disappears to Char and lets everyone build up again. Wings of Liberty at least had a clear story again - the continuation of Raynor and Kerrigan's storyline. It's not as epic as the original, which may be why people were disappointed, and a lot of the early missions were filler, which disappointed me as well. However, it did what it set out to do fairly effectively, the Mar Sara, Ariel Hanson, Matt Horner and Char missions flowed well together, it was the Tychus and Tosh missions that intruded. Ironic, since the Horner and Hanson missions aren't core to the story and the Artifact fragments were, but the Artifact fragments are like the Uraj and Khalis in Brood War - they're plot devices, and of really no significance. it is made worse in that most of those missions deal with the Tal'darim, who are like the UED a completely underwhelming enemy - obviously an attempt to force some Terran versus Protoss conflict in the game, where there essentially never was before. The Ariel Hanson missions allowed us to see how Terrans had to cope with Zerg invasion, that felt very much like StarCraft, a bit like the early StarCraft missions, in fact, where the Magistrate and Raynor have to save the colonists from the threat of the Zerg and Tassadar's purifying Protoss fleet. Horner's missions are about the rebellion against Mengsk, again, a significant part of Raynor's character. It ends with a real blow - the only real blow in the campaign - being dealt to Arcturus, and is satisfying for that reason. People have mentioned Arcturus's incompetence for letting Raynor get away with all he did, but aside from Media Blitz, none of the fights against the Dominion had any real importance to Mengsk. This is illustrated by the fact that only in Media Blitz is the situation important enough for Arcturus to address you directly. The reaction may seem odd, but recall that Arcturus has been spreading lies through UNN for years, people are used to simply accepting whatever it says. Arcturus does try to claim the recording to be a fake, but people just don't believe him.
Tosh's missions are insignificant filler, and Tychus' are annoying - clearly the mission gameplay taking precedence over the story, a single mission to get the complete artifact would have been much simpler and less irritating to play through. The Moebius Factor was fine, though it had a theme more akin to that found in Hanson's missions.
I've got to say that Arcturus being behind Tychus was a mistake, however. At the very least, they should have made it difficult or impossible for them to communicate, because the fact that Arcturus was essentially spying on Raynor throughout the entire campaign makes his inability to prevent Raynor's actions pretty absurd. It's also curious why he set Tychus the task of killing Kerrigan, but on the other hand he must have suspected something - the Dominion were searching for Artifact fragments too (The Outlaws), despite Arcturus never showing any interest in this before.
So yes, in order of storylines, it goes StarCraft, Wings of Liberty, and Brood War.
I like how he supports his opinions of the insignificance of certain factions and characters in BW pretty well and how everyone who worships the BW storyline and thinks the WoL one is terrible, just puts on a moment of silence due to how well written and supported his rant was. +1
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yeah story sucked, I was hugely disappointed. The writing and dialogues were just awful, it was nowhere near sc or wc3.
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Are you kidding?
No. When a story is as terrible as WoL's, Kerrigan's de-infestation doesn't mean anything because the story is just so damn pathetic that I don't give a shit.
In contrast, nothing happens in Brood War. You could practically play only the first Protoss mission (the evacuation of Aiur) and then jump to Wings of Liberty and you'd have no problem following along, except wondering why some characters have disappeared. You know it's bad when shock deaths are used to replace character development, and there is seriously no point in killing off Fenix or Duke except to try to fake importance by killing off established characters. Aldaris' death should have had meaning, but it is instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.
If you can seriously try to tell me that the de-infestation meant something while BW's stuff didn't, you're delusional.
The entire Protoss campaign dodges what could have been interesting development about reuniting the Khalai and Nerazim, but instead we're sent off to pick up random plot device crystals to power up the Xel'Naga Temple. Anyone complaining about the Artifact in Wings of Liberty might do well to remember that at least that furthered the plot. The Temple on Shakuras just eradicated all Zerg on the planet, when there was no real reason to have Zerg on the planet in the first place other than the need to have something to fight. Anyway, I would much rather have followed Aldaris and seen how he figured out that Raszagal was a tool of Kerrigan and mustered the Khalai against them, rather than the essentially meaningless grocery shopping we embarked on for the crystals.
No one said the Xel'Naga Temple was a great story item, but it's far better in every conceivable way to the Artifact. Terrans just randomly go pick up this small item that they can bring wherever they want to roast the exact enemy they want it to and do the exact thing (de-infest) that they want it to. Furthermore, they're a bunch of fucking Humans that can do this.
It's also worth mentioning that none of those Protoss will ever impact the storyline until the very end of the game - Zerg Mission 7 - which is indicative of the importance of this story arc.
God forbid the Terrans have their own story line.
Then we get the UED. As I said above, people could play StarCraft and Wings of Liberty and would never know anything about the UED, nor know that anything was missing. An enemy without foreshadowing, without reason to be present, and without lasting impact. Utterly forgettable. And yet they are pretty much the core of Brood War, aside from the previously mentioned self-contained Protoss campaign. To put that in perspective, imagine if Wings of Liberty revolved around the Tal'darim, or if after StarCraft, the Zerg were never mentioned again and had no impact on the development of the storyline. It's that atrocious.
By your logic, any story that doesn't have a massive and everlasting repercussion for multiple games isn't any good.
StarCraft leaves us with Kerrigan knowing that the time of her ascension had come, so we already knew that she'd be the new force behind the Zerg. Of course, seeing her gain control of the Swarm was really promising. With a title like "Brood War" you'd expect this to be at the centre of the storyline, but it isn't. Instead, we get the completely insignificant UED. Instead of competing with interesting Zerg characters, like Daggoth or other Cerebrates or the new Overmind (I hate the entire concept of the new Overmind, incidentally. Talk about diluting the significance of characters, that lessened bothe the awesomeness of the original Overmind and the importance of Tassadar's sacrifice), she fights against these inconsequential Terrans. That's the "Brood War". There's a new Overmind, and it isn't even a speaking character! Or a character at all! The "eternal will of the Swarm" is relegated to the relative importance of a khaydarin crystal.
Semantics. This actually has nothing to do with the story itself. You're just complaining about what the story was focused on.
And Kerrigan herself is the worst thing in Brood War. In an attempt to transition her from the berserking creature of destruction she was in StarCraft into the cunning queen of the Zerg they needed, Blizzard made everyone she interacted with completely retarded. I can tolerate that Zeratul and Artanis fell in with her plans because Kerrigan already has Raszagal under her control, and people naturally fall in to the orders of their superiors. That makes Zeratul and Artanis merely look like docile, obedient followers rather than absolute idiots, but at least it's somewhat credible. Especially given that the Judicator Aldaris, the guy who is used to giving orders rather than taking them, is the only one who refuses to trust Kerrigan. Frankly, Aldaris may well be my favourite character in the expansion if only because he wasn't an idiot and looked halfway significant. He's perhaps the only Protoss character to have real character development. It pisses me off that they just killed him off for no real reason.
I can also accept Arcturus Mengsk allying with her. Sure, it is utterly retarded, but if we accept his statement of "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me", then it fits perfectly well with his stated goals. Either Kerrigan holds up her end of the deal and Mengsk rules again, or else the Swarm kills everyone, either way he gets his wish. Unfortunately, his speech in reaction to Edmund Duke's death shows that he apparently believed Kerrigan would hold up her end of the bargain. People who say Arcturus Mengsk was idiotic in Wings of Liberty should consider that at least he didn't trust Infested Kerrigan!
But what is really intolerable if that Raynor and Fenix ally with her. Why? Just why? Do you remember when Tassadar said that "death might be a blessing" if they faltered against the Zerg, or that the Swarm was an enemy who sought to "consume all sentience, all life" at the end of StarCraft? Because Fenix and Raynor apparently don't, and they were there! They're apparently "siding with the enemy they know against the one they don't"... yeah, the enemy they know will kill or infest every living thing in existence! What could the UED possibly do that's worse than that? Even if they somehow wanted to, I don't think it is even physically possible for them to be a greater threat than the Zerg. The worst they could do is use the Zerg to do what they would have done on their own. This is unacceptable idiocy.
Yes, actually having a good Kerrigan character with the slightest hint of depth (WoL Kerrigan is the single worst villain that exists. There is no debate about this. Period. She's worse than Sauron) is a bad thing. Oh, and all you're doing is ignoring the fact that Kerrigan is a completely different leader when compared to the Overmind. I know, apparently the only way to have an "evil" race is to make them one-dimensional and have their goals never change or anything like that, but that's actually what happened.
Oh, and if we really want to talk about ridiculous decisions and lack of character development, lets just look at WoL. Which characters actually developed? Had any kind of depth to them? Oh, that's right, none of them. Blizzard's incredibly weak attempt at letting us see Raynor's internal struggle was executed so horribly that it doesn't count. Furthermore, if we're talking about insignificant, literally everything except the Artifact missions were 100% insignificant to the plot of WoL.
I like how he supports his opinions of the insignificance of certain factions and characters in BW pretty well and how everyone who worships the BW storyline and thinks the WoL one is terrible, just puts on a moment of silence due to how well written and supported his rant was. +1
It's well written, but it completely ignores importrant parts - WoL did everything bad that BW did, but significantly worse. Really, BW's story wasn't amazing or anything, but WoL's was complete and utter shit.
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On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:No. When a story is as terrible as WoL's, Kerrigan's de-infestation doesn't mean anything because the story is just so damn pathetic that I don't give a shit.
I was talking objectively. Your opinion really has no value to me. The deinfestation of Kerrigan implies a complete overhaul of the Zerg structure, has far-reaching ramifications with the Prophecy, and develops the relationship between Kerrigan and Raynor. It has consequences, it displays the culmination of goals, desires and objectives that will change the world and the people that live within it. It has meaning, unlike Brood War.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:If you can seriously try to tell me that the de-infestation meant something while BW's stuff didn't, you're delusional.
It is pretty blatant, actually. If it is delusion, how come the facts back me up? Brood War had no meaning. It had no purpose - we know this because nothing was achieved, it was essentially a twenty six mission long maintaining of the status quo, barring the evacuation of Aiur. The apparent point of the expansion, to make Kerrigan the dominant force in the Sector, is undercut by the Zerg retreating to Char and doing practically nothing for four years. Wings of Liberty had a goal, and the plot developed toward that goal. Indeed, the problem with Wings of Liberty is not its lack of meaning, but the filler that interrupted the story's development. There are things in Brood War that were significant: the evacuation of Aiur, Kerrigan forcing Zeratul to murder Raszagal. The secret mission would be mostly foreshadowing, so I don't include it, same as I don't really include Piercing the Shroud or the Prophecy missions as part of Wings of Liberty's storyline.
In order for something in a story to have significance, it must develop either the characters or the world. It is through the development of these that a plot unfolds. The deinfestation of Kerrigan does (or should do) both. Brood War for the most part did not.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:No one said the Xel'Naga Temple was a great story item, but it's far better in every conceivable way to the Artifact. Terrans just randomly go pick up this small item that they can bring wherever they want to roast the exact enemy they want it to and do the exact thing (de-infest) that they want it to. Furthermore, they're a bunch of fucking Humans that can do this.
The Artifact is better than the Shakuras Temple because it has a purpose. It is a plot device, in that it is a vehicle for the progression of the plot. The Shakuras Temple was not, there was no real plot, it was just an excuse to make more missions. In fact, you actually invade Shakuras in the Zerg campaign, despite this Zerg-slaying weapon, the Temple conveniently forgotten once it was no longer needed. The Artifact is also similar to the Psi Disruptor from Brood War, a weapon that, as you say, Terrans just randomly pick up, that reaches everywhere they want, to disperse the very enemy they want, and do the exact thing they want. At least the Artifact's nova is fairly short ranged - the Psi Disruptor reached across the Koprulu Sector.
Oh, and since you bring the point up, I should be remiss if I failed to mention that Terran Medics apparently have drugs that allow them to mind control the eternal will of the Swarm. Seriously, I prefer to try to forget that.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:God forbid the Terrans have their own story line.
The problem is that it isn't a real storyline, but just pointless filler. The original StarCraft had a Terran storyline. Wings of Liberty has a Terran storyline. But the UED does not count as a storyline in any significant way. I really don't even know why the UED was brought in, they ruined what could have been a very interesting development of an actual Brood War, and most of the UED campaign is spent fighting against Mengsk, where as we know nothing is ever accomplished.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:By your logic, any story that doesn't have a massive and everlasting repercussion for multiple games isn't any good.
I like how where I claim that Brood War had no significance or repercussions, you pretend that I desire extravagance. I did not demand massive or everlasting repercussions, I demanded any form of significance. Repercussions and development are core to that. You can tell that a story is not any good if it is in the middle of a series and you can skip it without losing any important part of the overall storyline. This is the case with Brood War (also with the Orc campaign in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos) where aside from the evacuation of Aiur and some meaningless shock deaths, everything is identical before and after the game. A story in which nothing happens isn't any good.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Semantics. This actually has nothing to do with the story itself. You're just complaining about what the story was focused on.
As you wish. I was merely stating possibilities which could have given meaning to the Brood War. The UED are kinda like the Dark Voice - they come out of nowhere and are supposed to be a huge threat. But it doesn't work like that, we have to be shown the threat, you can't just drop it in and say "here, fight this, it's stronger than your previous enemy" and expect it to be a good story. Kerrigan was a great villain because we got to see her development from idealistic rebel Terran to Zerg weapon of mass destruction to cunning and cruel leader of the Zerg (however poorly that last transition was handled.) We know and respect her capabilities. The Overmind was great too, but mostly because he represented a physical manifestation of the entire Swarm, everything we've seen the Zerg do is something he has done. And the Zerg were developed slowly and steadily from the very outset of the game. Arcturus Mengsk is a good villain too, we share Raynor's sense of betrayal after working for him throughout most of the campaign, and every word of his coronation speech feels like he's taunting us. Aside from the Overmind, these villains were developed over time to eventually fill in the position of primary villain of their race in a natural time.
The UED, however, is none of these. They just appear out of nowhere, take down the Dominion, take control of the Swarm, and get destroyed. DuGalle and Stukov were okay characters, but the very engine they were riding felt like it had its significance imposed on us, not felt. The same goes with the Tal'darim in Wings of Liberty. Why should we care about them? The Dark Voice is similar, but thankfully his presence is being introduced before he actually starts taking part. There is no real reason to be interested in him in In Utter Darkness, but hopefully if he is managed well he will have some appeal by Legacy of the Void. In the meantime, he is supported by interesting underlings, Samir Duran and Ulrezaj, so even if the Voice ends up phony, at least we can enjoy his sub-villains.
Likewise, Daggoth has been developed as a character, we know who he is, have a good idea what he's capable of. As the foremost of the Overmind's Cerebrates, we know he is dangerous. We've seen him display this. That is why he would have made a better villain (or at least antagonist, Kerrigan herself is the villain) than the UED. A good story is a continuation. If flows easily from one passage to the other. Brood War does not insert itself well within the continuation of StarCraft's storyline, it lacks connections with either the past or the future, it does not develop naturally. Daggoth was the prime Cerebrate, the Overmind's right hand, that he should be the Overmind's successor is evident. That he would be Kerrigan's antagonist for control of the Swarm is a natural progression of events, a reasonable result of the Overmind's destruction on Aiur. That a fleet of humans arrives from Earth without warning and takes control of a new Overmind is not. It is forced and intrusive. And you earlier said that you wishes Terrans had their own storyline, it should be mentioned that the UED are completely separate from the Terrans that has been developed in StarCraft and would be developed in Wings of Liberty. We have no connection to them within the storyline.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Yes, actually having a good Kerrigan character with the slightest hint of depth (WoL Kerrigan is the single worst villain that exists. There is no debate about this. Period. She's worse than Sauron) is a bad thing. Oh, and all you're doing is ignoring the fact that Kerrigan is a completely different leader when compared to the Overmind. I know, apparently the only way to have an "evil" race is to make them one-dimensional and have their goals never change or anything like that, but that's actually what happened.
Again, you seem to believe your opinion has any bearing whatsoever on this situation. If you wish to say "I did not like Kerrigan in Wings of Liberty", then that's fine. Saying that she's the worst villain ever (or Sauron) only demonstrates how shallow your knowledge is. And frankly, I have no idea what kind of depth you see in her Brood War appearance. Decreasing the mental faculties of those around her is not a character trait, it is a power. Akin to saying that her ability to shoot psionic balls of energy makes her a deep character. The only real depth she shows is when she gets weary of the slaughter after being berated by Raynor, hinting that beneath the plain facet of Queen of the Zerg, there is actually a living person remaining, with desires, with feelings. And this Raynor/Kerrigan relationship is what gets furthered in Wings of Liberty (though only from Raynor's side, which is disappointing.)
Anyway, Kerrigan barely even appears in Wings of Liberty, and those appearances are mostly fine (she seemed pretty erratic when talking to Zeratul, that was weird), I have no idea what you are complaining about. You can't just say "Kerrigan bad!" Provide some support and explanation for your claims.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Oh, and if we really want to talk about ridiculous decisions and lack of character development, lets just look at WoL. Which characters actually developed? Had any kind of depth to them? Oh, that's right, none of them. Blizzard's incredibly weak attempt at letting us see Raynor's internal struggle was executed so horribly that it doesn't count. Furthermore, if we're talking about insignificant, literally everything except the Artifact missions were 100% insignificant to the plot of WoL.
StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris.
However, if we were to lower the bar to actually measure what happens, then we do get some development from Raynor in Wings of Liberty, though not so much in how it changes but how it gets revealed. Now, I'm not very good at character analysis, and would rather leave it to someone else, but this is what I see. Because he interacts with so many people, we actually get new perspectives on his character. We see how his idealism has been quashed by cynicism, and how he turns to drink to forget his hopes and ambitions which he now deems unreachable. From interaction with Matt Horner and Gabriel Tosh, we can see how he still has those values, but how he has also believes that he has been forsaken. There is a peculiar dichotomy in Raynor, in that he seems to have given up hope and justice, yet still serves as a model of those very values to those around him. Raynor has become a symbol, and he continues his revolution not for himself but for those around him. In this way, he is something of a martyr, ironically having to, as Tychus puts it, go charging in like a damned hero for a cause he doesn't believe in. That is why he falls in so readily to Valerian's plan, for the first time he has hope. In rescuing Kerrigan he means not only to save the woman he loves, but to atone for the atrocities he participated in at Tarsonis and New Gettysburg, where Mengsk not only betrayed Kerrigan, but also the noble ideals Raynor fought for. This, I would then expect, is where the cynicism came from, where Raynor realised that fighting for freedom and justice meant nothing and that his actions were only going to be used by those out for power, that only the ruthless and pitiless succeed. If he can bring Kerrigan back, then that would atone for what he did, it would mean that there are things worth hoping and fighting for, good things can happen to those who deserve them.
Tychus also has some interesting development, but most of the other characters are either new or appear too little to have substantial development.
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On August 04 2010 19:17 Jyvblamo wrote: The only part of the campaign that had me going "Seriously Blizzard?" was when the Hyperion by itself managed to dock and board the flagship of the Dominion fleet while being clearly outnumbered.
Look at it this way. Prince Valerian wanted the help of Raynor since he knows he can bribe Raynor into helping with by stating that he has the resource to turn Kerrigan back. Valerian probably told the other ships to stand down while he sacrifice a couple of marines in order to get Raynor in the same room he is in.
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On August 09 2010 04:14 kingcomrade wrote: Blizzard has some amazing programmers, artists, and animators, but boy do they not have any good writers. It wasn't until I got back to the title screen and saw the SC2 logo that I realized I wasn't playing a sonic the hedgehog fanfiction or watching a Syfy Original movie.
Blizz also needs to lay off the opera music. That stuff is fine for Warcraft which is supposed to be corny, but Starcraft is supposed to have some dignity.
I honestly don't know why anyone thinks blizzard is good at telling stories - I don't think I've enjoyed one of theirs since sc (and I'm only saying 'since sc' because I can't even remember if I liked sc's). wc3's was some of the most cliche tripe I've ever heard, diablo II the same, etc.
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On August 09 2010 15:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote: StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris.
I agree with your posts completely, except for this. What kind of character development does Aldaris get? He's just bitching about everything at every turn. He's just there to be the voice of the common masses of the high-and-mighty Khalai opposing the alliance with the Dark Templar. He's complaining about what needs to be done at every turn. Except once, after which he betrays everyone, in a kind of weird way and timing. I never even thought of him as a character, just someone who had to be put there to represent the common opinions of the Aiur Protoss.
Rightfully, Tassadar, Zeratul and even Artanis going from a zealot-like "I-do-what-my-heroes-tell-me-to" to actually having an opinion and actions of his own get much more development.
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