First thing, I have placed a spoiler tag in the title so don't bother hiding them in this thread.
Before I get to the disappointed part I want to say that the game does have it's good sides it is graphically pleasing, the missions are fun to play, Hyperion is awesome and the Zeratul bit is pure gold, the rest however...
Now as to the actual point of the thread I don't even know where to start.
I guess the first thing are the trailers. I watched them, and naturally got hyped up, and they were indeed awesome. But when I watched them I, and I suppose everyone else, thought "if the trailers are this awesome how awesome is the rest of the game. What we find out is that there, more or less, isn't anything outside those cinematic!!! And not to mention that I fucking knew that Valerian can reverse Kerrigan's condition as soon as he said "I can give you what you want most" in the trailer, they sold out their big finish, and everything else, before the start, come on!
Next, the Findlay fiasco. Before I move on to that let me digress a bit. Arcturus Mengsk is according to the books and all story on him prior to SCII a ambitious person, with IQ in the upper level of genius,with an amazing tactical and strategic sense, he is utterly ruthless but also very educated and layered (he is able to use this to fool psionics, like Kerrigan) , in short he is one heck of a opponent. But now in SCII he seems to have suddenly thrown his brain out the window. Why do I say this? First off the news broadcasts, they are a travesty seriously. How can someone for whom it is said that the media is his greatest weapon allow Kate Lockwell to spread what is basically Raynor propaganda without being killed,mind controlled by a Ghost replaced by a robot or something after the first broadcast?! Now why do I say all this about Mengsk in regards to Tychus? Well because he is the one who apparently is stupid enough to send Tychus to Raynor to be some sort of a mole. So it is very safe to assume he knew everything that was happening (based on his interaction in the end cinematic) and yet he let Raynors band of ragtags WTFPWN his dominion left and right, it is insane that he allowed them to pull of what they did in Media Blitz, he let them attack him on Korhal which is a blow to his credibility on it's own and allowed them to spread potentially catastrophic evidence against him (more on this later), he also allowed them to bust open the place where he placed his most dangerous opponents, and allowed them to trash his top secret lab, come on!! As for Tychus himself. He escapes prison without a decent story on how he did it, and finds Raynor and wants to be best buddies again, suspicious? Sure, but let's give him the right of doubt on account of old ties. This part is not bad actually, but what is he seen doing next? Reading their intel, at that point he should be under 24/7 surveillance, in the least. And the killer. Mat finds out he has some killer mechanism on remote control in his suit at this point all possible red lights should have lit up in Raynor's head (in a mongoloid's head even). Even though Raynor feels somewhat safe in the fact that he probably (!) won't be assassinated because that would turn him into a martyr there is still a shitload of stuff Tychus could have done. He could have killed Mat Horrner, no one knows about him, he won't be any martyr but without him Raynor would probably quit or fail in some other way, even worse if Rory Swann got whacked they wouldn't be able to do jack squat, or just simply sabotage the Hyperion leaving Raynor's revolution dead in space, the list goes on... So at that point he should have faced off with Tychus and either helped him or killed him, he again dismissed this (!!!) and his reaction (Raynor's) in the final cinematic is just laughable. Not to mention that Tosh keeps telling him that there is someone on board working for the dominion, that Tychus is fighting inside over something he doesn't want to do, this is even simpler than putting 2 and 2 together it's like putting 1 and 1. However the thing that is absurdly idiotic is that from what we gather from all of this, Mengsk planted Tychus on the Hyperion for a snowball's chance in hell of killing Kerrigan! This cost him so many things, most of which I already mentioned but let's throw in the destroyed Odin development facility in there too. This is so idiotic and far fetched that I can assuredly say that even the dumbest people I know would find this plan retarded.
Now before I move on to anything else let me say something about the incriminating evidence on Mengsk. It comes from the Tarsonis adjutant, and is an audio recording of Mengsk in which he is revealed as the killer of Tarsonis and a general power hungry ass. This is portrayed as prime evidence. What? If I showed you a picture of me shaking hands with an alien you would all say its fake, that I photoshopped it or that it's CGI. Even today tech exists that can fake someones voice. Who the hell would believe that that recording is real 500 years in the future? Mengsk should have dismissed it in a relaxed/amused manner, the only thing that made it impact is that he lost it and got pissed, and again this points to the fact that he suddenly lost his brain. Not only him, it seems every character got wacked in the head before the events of WoL because almost all of them seem dumbed down.
Now those are just the glaring plot holes that poke you in the eye and simply can't be ignored and there is so much more.
Like the stupid filler missions in which we earn money. That would have been a nice idea if they had like 40 missions in total and were aiming in portraying Raynor's revolution in detail and had you spend 15 missions collecting funds and then 10 missions doing covert ops with Tosh or some other missions in which you don't produce troops (like the secret mission) all of those mixed up with about 15 plot advancing missions. Now that would be an epic campaign, but no. What happened is that too many missions feel like filler from the story perspective, and when we take out the filler missions we get about 10 important missions, exactly how many there were per race in SC1 when all races were in the same game.
And the character of Raynor is totally fractured. He seems lost half the time, appears to have weird mood swings and is generally acting stupid. Some of this can be accounted for by the freedom of choice in the game but not all. He hated Kerrigan for all the deaths she caused, including that of Fenix and vowed to kill her, it is understood that he can't due to Zeratul's warning and his hope that when uninfested she will become what she once was, but still they should have played on this dilemma of his, but there is none of that, no apparently Raynors only point is to seem badass and throw out oneliners. Because of this the whole campaign feels confusing.
WoL: Wings of Liberty, I guess we all expected it to be about the revolution against Mengsk and in the 90% of the campaign we are working towards that goal, but suddenly comes the prince and we are off to Char, screw Mengsk. Wait hold the phone! This maybe ain't a major issue but the campaign feels fractured at that moment, this sudden decision to go to Char. What they really should have done is both, going to Char and then finishing off Mengsk. This brings me to the last thing I wanted to say and it concerns the ending of WoL. Besides not getting Mengsk we also are left with more or less no answers. We have no clue what is happening with the hybrids, what Mengsk is doing about the latest developments, what prince charming is about to do, we don't even really know what happened to Sarah, we don't have any sort of closure or a proper finish in WoL, it's a giant cliffhanger. That would all be fine and dandy if this was just one out of three episodes and we just jump on onto the next hungry to find out what happens next. But WHOOOOPS the next story installment is a year and a half away, sorry :-).
Conclusions: the games story is of poor quality, blizzard needs to achieve a miracle if they want to salvage the story in the next two games, and considering some of their latest moves I doubt it, this simply aren't the same company and it is sad, I can't thing of a single thing that separates blizzard from the throng of other game companies now,pretty buy hollow is SCII.
Agree with most of your points about the campaign storyline. But I'm going to be honest with you here. I'd rather Blizzard spent time and effort on making the MP better and just never made a campaign at all.
On August 04 2010 12:04 Necrosjef wrote: Agree with most of your points about the campaign storyline. But I'm going to be honest with you here. I'd rather Blizzard spent time and effort on making the MP better and just never made a campaign at all.
I'd rather had blizzard throw out a killer single player than attempt to best BW in multiplayer and push for "esports".
Anyways, I agree about the story... just finished the campaign and I feel there were alot of backstories, but not enough time to flesh them out. I also think the ending was kinda meh; the whole time, I was thinking: hey, they're gonna turn kerrigan back... wait nah, that'll be too obvious and too perfect. And then, it actually happened.
By the way, does someone wanna tell me who the dead guy in the blue armor named koltzier was?
Yeah, Mengsk seemed like a fizzling non-factor throughout the campaign. You never really even fight against him. Where the fuck is he, all this time? Why are you never attacked by his forces in any way, shape, or form, but instead free to take the battle to him every time? Is he so terrified of Kerrigan and busy with the Zerg invasion (which we scarcely see any of, as Mengsk is busy defending the core worlds?) that he can't lift one finger to defend the legacy for which he murdered an entire planet?
The bit with Horner and Raynor knowing about Tychus' killswitch was also glaring. They don't do ANYTHING about it. If Tychus had shot Kerrigan in the face without a word, Raynor would've had no right to complain. He knew something was up and didn't follow-up on it. That's worse than ignoring an unpaid bill.
Most of the things you mentioned aren't actually problems. The story works fine if you understand the SC lore. There are easy explinations for almost every single thing you mentioned.
Basically it just sounds like you're butthurt because the game wasn't EXACTLY as you wanted. Clearly a lot of people on these forums are wearing rose colored glasses when it comes to SC and BW. This is as good if not better in most every way considering the small story we've played so far.
Personally the only gripe I have with the game is the poor dialogue in many scenes. The story is fine if you consider it's position in the trilogy.
On August 04 2010 12:19 Clutch8 wrote: I loved the story. The ending was what I wanted and never thought I would get.
OH! this! haha. - but seriously, stop bitchin about the story. it was great for a videogame. i mean even mass effect or heavy rain has their own cheesy moments, videogames are still up and coming. give them time. as for the plot holes or things that aren't very realistic, well its sci-fi. its fiction.
By the way, does someone wanna tell me who the dead guy in the blue armor named koltzier was?
Koltzier was a Blizzard graphics artist who died during the production of SC2. So its a tribute to him.
Michael and René Koiter are twin brothers who worked together under the name Twincruiser. Michael died of a mysterious and unexpected heart defect and was much-loved by a great many people. You can see another memorial to Michael in the Barrens in World of Warcraft, up on a mountain west of the Crossroads.
He died quite some years ago, not during SC2 development, so that should give you an idea of how much they wanted to memorialize the guy.
always knew Tychus was a douchebag, I think the campaign is a bit too short. after seeing what happened to the zerg after the All-in mission (or at least most of it), Idk how anyones going to want to play Zerg in the campaign, especially without it's main leader
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha omg you put all this effort in to complete crap, Tychus was working for mobeius,not mengsk, and say w/e you want like oh same thing, it wasn't, tychus wanted to be free stated when he fights raynor and says he got a taste of freedom and thats what he wants, he wanted to take down mengsk, seriously if your going to complain about plot holes you should have a half competent understand of the plot, I think you were the one hit in the head before this game, but thanks for the LULZ
On August 04 2010 12:19 Clutch8 wrote: I loved the story. The ending was what I wanted and never thought I would get.
The ending is what I didn't want, and what I feared would happen.
I thought the ending was like Avatar's ending. Neither the plot of sc2 nor Avatar were great, and I saw both endings coming from a mile away, but I would have been disappointed if either ended differently.
On August 04 2010 14:58 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote: hahahahahahahahahahahahaha omg you put all this effort in to complete crap, Tychus was working for mobeius,not mengsk, and say w/e you want like oh same thing, it wasn't, tychus wanted to be free stated when he fights raynor and says he got a taste of freedom and thats what he wants, he wanted to take down mengsk, seriously if your going to complain about plot holes you should have a half competent understand of the plot, I think you were the one hit in the head before this game, but thanks for the LULZ
The story itself makes sense, although it's very cliche with the deux ex machina and the seemingly random missions. The cinematics glued it together, but the dialogue was poorly made.
I have to agree. Story was incredibly cliched and the ending was just a bullshit cop out, seemingly because they couldn't think of any other way to end the story happily. It's a good thing the missions were so varied and polished or I'd be incredibly disappointed with the campaign as a whole.
Indeed. The story seems to be aimed at 12yo kids who still crave for their superhero movies. I too expected a more dramatic plot line, with more and better plot-line missions. It all seemed pretty shallow with all the clichés worthy of a low class movie.
Hell, I was more entertained by the Command and Conquer campaign with their real life actors playing the plot, although those were pretty thin as well.
I feel increasingly dissapointed in Blizzard and the direction their games are heading, because I feel that its all becoming increasingly shallow.
The only part of the campaign that had me going "Seriously Blizzard?" was when the Hyperion by itself managed to dock and board the flagship of the Dominion fleet while being clearly outnumbered.
Now if Tychus had succeeded in killing Kerrigan...THAT would have been a real ending. Then we would have actually some plot to look forward to, like how in the world the situation would be salvaged after Zeratul's warning to Raynor didn't succeed.
Well there is the fact that Blizzard ALWAYS has Heroes get corrupted, but never before do these guys and gals have to deal with their sins. Diablo? Main character, gets killed in Diablo 2 Warcraft? Arthas, gets killed in WoW. Starcraft? Kerrigan, ISN´T dead (yet).
On August 04 2010 14:58 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote: hahahahahahahahahahahahaha omg you put all this effort in to complete crap, Tychus was working for mobeius,not mengsk, and say w/e you want like oh same thing, it wasn't, tychus wanted to be free stated when he fights raynor and says he got a taste of freedom and thats what he wants, he wanted to take down mengsk, seriously if your going to complain about plot holes you should have a half competent understand of the plot, I think you were the one hit in the head before this game, but thanks for the LULZ
Hey, despite the irony of you calling the original poster an idiot with a post filled with grammatical errors and a name in all caps, theres one glaring flaw with that gibberish you decided to vomit out onto this thread: Tychus was ordered by Mengsk in the ending cinematic to take out Kerrigan. He was working for Mengsk.
I agree with the OP in the part about how Raynor vowed to kill Kerrigan in BW. It was like he completely forgot that his comrade in arms Fenix was murdered at her hands in SC2. Im sure hes raging at Tassadar in the afterlife
Wait, what's up with Tassadar anyway? He comes flying out of nowhere "Sup Zeratul, not really dead LOL" then just flies away and you never see him again?? Is he a god now? Is he a Xel'naga? That was such a stupid part, just leave dead characters dead. If I see Tychus or Fenix alive in Heart of the SwarmI'll be raging hardcore and stop caring about the story completely.
All of your points are essentially "In SC1 it was like this, THEREFORE, in SC2 it should be like this". If you take it as a story by itself it's not too bad. You just have to accept that the characters aren't the same anymore.
On August 04 2010 19:35 hoppipolla wrote: Wait, what's up with Tassadar anyway? He comes flying out of nowhere "Sup Zeratul, not really dead LOL" then just flies away and you never see him again?? Is he a god now? Is he a Xel'naga? That was such a stupid part, just leave dead characters dead. If I see Tychus or Fenix alive in Heart of the SwarmI'll be raging hardcore and stop caring about the story completely.
Yes, this. What made BW and SC good for more mature and an older audience was that Blizzard had the guts to e.g. kill "main" characters. Makes the story much more believable and touching. They should leave them dead.
But all the people that are writing, "Raynor swored to kill Kerrigan". I can't believe that you completely ignore the fact that infested Kerrigan is not Kerrigan.
It was the Zerg part that killed, backstabbed etc. Now the good, almost saint'ish Kerrigan is possibly back, whom which Raynor is in love with, and you want him to kill her? Infested Kerrigan is dead, thats what Raynor swored.
Also at the OP. I have to disagree with almost everything. The news channel we are whatching is so blatantly obviously a "tribute" to the bad news channels IRL like Fox news. That are so biased it is laughable. In the world of SC there should be so many news channels, and Blizzard is simply showcasing some of the more hilarious ones. A channel that is amateurishly produced and only have one reporter and an anchorman. This is how I see it anyway.
I might come back to the other points you make and try to address them.
But all the people that are writing, "Raynor swored to kill Kerrigan". I can't believe that you completely ignore the fact that infested Kerrigan is not Kerrigan.
It was the Zerg part that killed, backstabbed etc. Now the good, almost saint'ish Kerrigan is possibly back, whom which Raynor is in love with, and you want him to kill her? Infested Kerrigan is dead, thats what Raynor swored.
True, but still he had to have doubts if the strange alien relic we know almost nothing about will work properly. And this should make him have doubts on what to do. Go with this crazy plan and attempt to save her in hope she will be healed or just cap her and be rid of her. This could be presented in game in a few dialogues, then he makes up his mind and sticks to it. It's not much but that would make for a more deep story in my humble opinion.
Also at the OP. I have to disagree with almost everything. The news channel we are whatching is so blatantly obviously a "tribute" to the bad news channels IRL like Fox news. That are so biased it is laughable. In the world of SC there should be so many news channels, and Blizzard is simply showcasing some of the more hilarious ones. A channel that is amateurishly produced and only have one reporter and an anchorman. This is how I see it anyway.
UNN news are not one of the news channels they are the news channel. They are extremely powerful and in the time of the Confederacy had access to some of the greatest secrets of the Confederacy, but choose to bury them because they were the tool of the government even then. They are by far the biggest and most influential channel in the Dominion. So these kinds of slip up's can't be tolerated. And yes I am not daft I noticed it's rather silly and completely biased. However in the relations to the Mengks-retard issue I had to bring it up.
I might come back to the other points you make and try to address them.
I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted..
On August 04 2010 14:47 TriniMasta wrote: always knew Tychus was a douchebag, I think the campaign is a bit too short. after seeing what happened to the zerg after the All-in mission (or at least most of it), Idk how anyones going to want to play Zerg in the campaign, especially without it's main leader
Tychus actually found a wierd way to have a noble death. If he hadn't fired the reactor in his suit would have been overloaded and killed them all. But since he let Jim see the laser(and come on you know he didn't need to aim for that long) Jim killed him and saved his friend from a terrible terrible death(and terrible terrible damage to his internal organs).
The zerg change the most when they are in times of trouble, in other words even with weak kerrigan the zerg still will function but will need more species(read units :D).
To everyone asking why Jim "forgets" about Fenix he didn't. In fact he has his revenge against infested Kerrigan. He killed the infested parts of her(that were why she tried to become the queen bitch of the universe) while still leaving her alive. His revenge was to destroy the infestted kerrigan so he "saved" and "destroyed" her(something like the Xel'naga saving species from death but destroying their actual species(they become the next Xel'naga).
I think it's weird that everybody only thinks about Mengsk as the big enemy here, because it was clearly pointed out, that the one who wants to see kerrigan dead is the dark voice. And perhaps exactly that one is behind all of it, controlling mengsk or stuff like that.
It's just not believable in the slightest, and the deliberately cheesy parts (the news casts) are not funny but just dumb most of the time. Oh, she almost said "Raynor" and got cut off (for the 20th time), ha ha.
In addition to what OP has mentioned, I also thought that the meeting with Valerian scene was disgustingly bad. Hey look, a fleet of enemy battlecruisers has just jumped in, how about we with our one ship charge, board the flagship, capture it and kill Mengsk, now that's a good plan!
The invasion of Char makes about as much sense. In the end of BW, BOTH the terrans and the protoss were crushed by the Zerg and forced to run. Zerg ruled the Universe. Then 4 years later, a PART of the dominion fleet that couldn't even hold the Zerg attack on their own worlds is able to invade the Zerg homeworld and kill their leader?
On August 04 2010 20:52 Bazinga wrote: I think it's weird that everybody only thinks about Mengsk as the big enemy here, because it was clearly pointed out, that the one who wants to see kerrigan dead is the dark voice. And perhaps exactly that one is behind all of it, controlling mengsk or stuff like that.
god.. I can see it now.. Mengsk was actually being mind controlled all along, or he's been long dead and been replaced w/ a look-alike puppet, explains all his retardation and actions! As for Kerrigan, she was just depressed and wanted to end it all, so that's how HALF a fleet succeeded in Char!
Don't know what they can do about Raynor though, explaining his character changes is gonna be tough.
On August 04 2010 20:52 Bazinga wrote: I think it's weird that everybody only thinks about Mengsk as the big enemy here, because it was clearly pointed out, that the one who wants to see kerrigan dead is the dark voice. And perhaps exactly that one is behind all of it, controlling mengsk or stuff like that.
god.. I can see it now.. Mengsk was actually being mind controlled all along, or he's been long dead and been replaced w/ a look-alike puppet, explains all his retardation and actions! As for Kerrigan, she was just depressed and wanted to end it all, so that's how HALF a fleet succeeded in Char!
Don't know what they can do about Raynor though, explaining his character changes is gonna be tough.
On August 04 2010 20:52 Bazinga wrote: I think it's weird that everybody only thinks about Mengsk as the big enemy here, because it was clearly pointed out, that the one who wants to see kerrigan dead is the dark voice. And perhaps exactly that one is behind all of it, controlling mengsk or stuff like that.
god.. I can see it now.. Mengsk was actually being mind controlled all along, or he's been long dead and been replaced w/ a look-alike puppet, explains all his retardation and actions! As for Kerrigan, she was just depressed and wanted to end it all, so that's how HALF a fleet succeeded in Char!
Don't know what they can do about Raynor though, explaining his character changes is gonna be tough.
The booze man, it's all the booze.
speaking of which.. that man can sure hold his liquor. Does a ton of drinking and doesn't show any impairment of motor/speech functions at all.
On August 04 2010 20:52 Bazinga wrote: I think it's weird that everybody only thinks about Mengsk as the big enemy here, because it was clearly pointed out, that the one who wants to see kerrigan dead is the dark voice. And perhaps exactly that one is behind all of it, controlling mengsk or stuff like that.
I think the story becomes not only plausible, but fascinating when you consider possibilities like this. + Show Spoiler +
Tychus answer to Arcturus, Arcturus answers to Duran (secret mission basically confirms the two are working together), and Duran answers to the dark voice. Duran wants Kerrigan dead so that the hybrids could enslave the zerg and destroy the rest of the protoss, as seen in the final Zeratul mission. Given that Duran is probably more powerful than Mengsk and has all kinds of unknown Xel'Naga powers, I'm guessing Mengsk was a pawn of Duran, which explains why he was a bumbling fool throughout the campaign and used Tychus to attempt to kill Kerrigan. Mengsk "knew" that Raynor would want to kill Kerrigan as well after the events of Brood War, but had no idea that Zeratul showed Raynor his memories, so Mengsk could not have known that Raynor actually did not want Kerrigan dead.
The question remains though, who is the dark voice? A good Xel'Naga, an evil Xel'Naga, or the KL-2 entity?
On August 04 2010 19:24 Unentschieden wrote: Well there is the fact that Blizzard ALWAYS has Heroes get corrupted, but never before do these guys and gals have to deal with their sins. Diablo? Main character, gets killed in Diablo 2 Warcraft? Arthas, gets killed in WoW. Starcraft? Kerrigan, ISN´T dead (yet).
id be perfectly happy if just once the evil person just raped the galaxy. Kerrigan can win, I would be happy with such an outcome.... and yes the story has gotten kinda shallow >.>
I am not overly pissed about Kerrigan being rehumanized (although she is essentially the first human-zerg hybrid now); what bugs me is the whole recycled "zomg dark voice big smokey impossible-to-identify-with bad guy with a penchant of fatally taunting his enemies like some 2nd rate villain", and how incredibly stupid they made Arcturus look.
Also, miraS naruD, the head of Moebius Foundation; wtf are we in 3rd grade still?
On August 04 2010 12:19 Clutch8 wrote: I loved the story. The ending was what I wanted and never thought I would get.
OH! this! haha. - but seriously, stop bitchin about the story. it was great for a videogame. i mean even mass effect or heavy rain has their own cheesy moments, videogames are still up and coming. give them time. as for the plot holes or things that aren't very realistic, well its sci-fi. its fiction.
But Raynor said it isnt
Anyways, the story really was too cheesy and simple for my taste. I disagree about Tychus being a big deal, I guess he just wanted him to help Rayner fight Zerg and then kill kerrigan and Tychus never reported anything because people woulda found out about that (someone like Tosh surely). Although it seems weird to send some super secret special ops to kill Kerrigan, when 99.9999% of ALL terrans wanna see kerrigan dead. I can live with a little logical flaw though, how manny hollywood movies have them? So yeah it's not a huge deal imo, but overall all the dialogues were just so cheesy and I started disliking most characters, especially Raynor unfortunately. The one that seemed the coolest and the most like some character from a hollywood flick (rather than B-movie style characters) was Valerian. And yeah Mengsk definitely seemed like an idiot.
Overall I'm not hugely disappointed though, the missions (= the important part of the game) were still very very creative and original imo. Dont care if its filler story-wise or not, the gameplay was good.How many missions were exactly like the other? none, really.
On August 04 2010 21:37 Shaithis wrote: Also, miraS naruD, the head of Moebius Foundation; wtf are we in 3rd grade still?
hahaha I actually hadnt realised that, though I never even heard or registered what the head of mf was called like, its tough hearing out fantasy/sci fi names when english isnt your original language.
On August 04 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote: I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted..
This is pretty much my thoughts. I enjoyed the campaign immensely but the story was built for children and won't resonate like the BW story. And no it's not because I heard the BW story when I was 10 years younger.
On August 05 2010 05:05 Phrencys wrote: But honestly Duran became a shapeshifter or went Mikeal Jackson or something? He didn't come anything close to Narud's appearance in SC1.
Lol MJ, RIP.
But honestly, the story in Sc2 is not that bad. The Fallen One is coming to wipe out the universe, Zeratul uncovers prophecy, Kerrigan the secret hero. Also consider that the whole stories not over yet.
What I had real problem was the delivery. The voice acting I largely favor Sc1's. Jim Raynor's a good example, all his character in his voice seems to have been drowned in booze . Some of the things people mention really don't add up nor contribute to the story, Tychus working for Mengsk all along a good example, and them somehow managing to even LAND on Char confused me.
But we'll just have to wait and see for the rest of the story to unfold :/
On August 04 2010 13:27 On_Slaught wrote: Most of the things you mentioned aren't actually problems. The story works fine if you understand the SC lore. There are easy explinations for almost every single thing you mentioned.
Basically it just sounds like you're butthurt because the game wasn't EXACTLY as you wanted. Clearly a lot of people on these forums are wearing rose colored glasses when it comes to SC and BW. This is as good if not better in most every way considering the small story we've played so far.
Personally the only gripe I have with the game is the poor dialogue in many scenes. The story is fine if you consider it's position in the trilogy.
Go ahead and explain them then. I've been an avid fan for twelve years and I'm very well-versed and many of these plot holes are pretty glaring to me.
OH! this! haha. - but seriously, stop bitchin about the story. it was great for a videogame. i mean even mass effect or heavy rain has their own cheesy moments, videogames are still up and coming. give them time. as for the plot holes or things that aren't very realistic, well its sci-fi. its fiction.
No.
It is not.
Not even close.
It's one of the worst stories to come out of a video game in the past decade.
All of your points are essentially "In SC1 it was like this, THEREFORE, in SC2 it should be like this". If you take it as a story by itself it's not too bad. You just have to accept that the characters aren't the same anymore.
Good God people will come up with any excuse. Sure, characters change, but there needs to be a reason. There should be a reason that Mengsk turned from a brilliant, cold, and calculating mastermind into a complete buffoon that is a clone of the Confederacy. There should be a reason Kerrigan turned from being one of the most devious villains ever to the most pathetic piece of trash one-dimensional character I've ever seen.
I guess my main gripe against the storyline is that everything felt like a parody. It had no depth whatsoever.
From persistant redneck music to the retarded news channel to cliché-supposed-to-sound-badass-lines like "Settling down isn't for people like me" and "Fix my damn juke box!", to Mat patronizing Raynor every so often... Don't get me wrong, these things made me smile and it was often entertaining, but perhaps they tried a bit too hard there, and didn't put enough thought into the actual storyline.
This basically takes the player away from the main plot. Like… you know… there's a god damn galaxy to save out there? There's an empire to overthrow? Raynor was supposed to be the Luke Skywalker of Wings of Liberty. Instead he spent half of his time drinking, and the other half doing "funding" missions.
We spent several hours witnessing a prophecy Raynor totally disregarded.
We saw everyone warn Raynor about Tychus only to have an "omg he's a traitor" pulled off in the end.
We all know Meobius is related to Duran, but no mention of this guy was done.
We can already call shots for next expansion because Blizzard has become so predictable. Kerrigan will pull a Bolvar and go back to the swarm at some point "cuz the hybrids will take over otherwise". naruD will shockingly be revealed as Duran, and his plan to seize the swarm for the hybrids will get in motion as Kerrigan lost the control for now, and he will use the artefact to generate more hybrids and/or decimate Protoss colonies. Meanwhile Mengsk will try to use the hybrids as a weapon or whatever and Mengsk jr will pull something crappy on Raynor for his own personal gain… etc etc.
It is sad that Blizzard/Activision has come to this.
What I miss about the BW ending, was that it left a bitter feeling in my mouth. In the sc2 campaign there are way, too, many feel good moments.
Not to mention they copy pasted a mission from the first T campaign... That killed the creativity for me that early.
I didnt mind the voice acting too much, I am good at getting used to new stuff like that. I liked the twist that Kerrigan HAD to stay alive, that's the climax for me... It killed it for me that the cinematic where Zeratul / Kerrigan fight, was the ONLY part of the "old kerrigan". They tried to pull a Kerrigan (like she infiltrated the toss during their sc bw campaign) with Tychus. And I didnt even need our favorite spectre to give me the thought that he wasn't totally clean. (Though I killed him before I got more info than "someone on your crew is a traitor" message.
Now if Tychus had succeeded in killing Kerrigan...THAT would have been a real ending. Then we would have actually some plot to look forward to, like how in the world the situation would be salvaged after Zeratul's warning to Raynor didn't succeed.
Completely agree. In the final cinematic i was hoping so much for Kerrigan to die to make the ending Blizzard worthy. But no, they made it as we all expect it. DAMN YOU!!
I guess my main gripe against the storyline is that everything felt like a parody. It had no depth whatsoever.
Again I agree.
I was hoping for more. A lot more. And this is not because i have high expectation, but because Blizzard had a bar high rised. Now they went a bit low.
Also i am sad to see only 3 cinematics. I remember in W3 that i couldn't wait to see another cinematic, and it told so much story. Now the only cool cinematic is the 4 minute Zeratul/Kerrigan one. Shame on you Blizzard!
On August 05 2010 07:23 TOloseGT wrote: We've only seen 1/3 of the story. I wasn't all that satisfied with the Terran campaign in Starcraft original either.
Stop making these comparisons. This is not the equivalent of the Terran campaign. It's the equivalent of all of Classic SC.
But all the people that are writing, "Raynor swored to kill Kerrigan". I can't believe that you completely ignore the fact that infested Kerrigan is not Kerrigan.
It was the Zerg part that killed, backstabbed etc. Now the good, almost saint'ish Kerrigan is possibly back, whom which Raynor is in love with, and you want him to kill her? Infested Kerrigan is dead, thats what Raynor swored.
Also at the OP. I have to disagree with almost everything. The news channel we are whatching is so blatantly obviously a "tribute" to the bad news channels IRL like Fox news. That are so biased it is laughable. In the world of SC there should be so many news channels, and Blizzard is simply showcasing some of the more hilarious ones. A channel that is amateurishly produced and only have one reporter and an anchorman. This is how I see it anyway.
I might come back to the other points you make and try to address them.
You completely miss the point about the "Raynor swored to kill Kerrigan" bit (way to inject bad grammar to try to make us look stupid). The point is, the fact that Raynor was in love with Kerrigan and that he then had a turnaround when he realized that Kerrigan was now the queen bitch of the universe was some good character development. They could have utilized that and had Raynor struggling with his past love and his more recent desire to avenge his war buddy Fenix, among countless others.
Instead, we got a deus ex machina that magically allowed him to stop the queen and get kerrigan back in one fell swoop. This allowed for a cheesy ending where Raynor literally walked off with Kerrigan in his arms into the sunset. My point, at least, was that Blizzard gave up on a good opportunity for character development and a less linear plot.
I agree with most of your points OP. All characters are dumbed down beyond belief. It feels like half of them have undergone lobotomy and the other half spent the last five years watching reality shows and B-class action movies... Raynor's oneliners are basically the highlight of most dialogues... It also feels like the archetype for the plot was Swiss cheese since it has so many holes...
However, I can understand the reasoning of Raynor abandoning the revolution and going to Char. He basically said that saving millions of lifes is far better than him gaining power by dethroning Mengsk. (on the other hand the question arises: How the hell was it possible for a bunch of rebells to defeat the zerg on their home planet?) I'd also be lying if I said that I didn't love the ending with Kerrigan being deinfested
Too many things are left unanswered and too many plot elements are way too retarded for me to accept the apparent state of affairs as the truth. There has to be something going on behind the scenes of which we are still unaware. I just won't believe that anyone with half a brain would sign off on this as a good idea.
While I agree that part of the narration was pretty poor - especially how rushed the ending was - I won't judge the story on a whole without knowing it entirely. Maybe there's still something which will make sense of this mess.
What bummed me out the most was just how lost we are in the plot because of all the unanswered questions.
Perhaps Mengsk is a modern Richard 3, insane sociopath genius when pursuing the ultimate goal of emperor-ship, but losing regard when he finally gets it..
also since hes screwed anyways by the zerg, he might as well plot something with " a snowball in hells chance of killing" her, didnt you see the news report of zerg invading like a shit ton of terran planets?
also those zerg attacks plus his son leaving with half the military may have put him on edge enough to get pissed during the news conference
also when people hate you already it doesnt matter if someones denouncement of you has been faked lol.
also my last post was sarcastic. sc1 didnt make sense. we still dont know how protoss work.
its beautiful.
edit: out of anyone in the universe the only person with balls and reason enough to lead an army into char is raynor,
also someone taking major prison time for you trust me will let you totally bypass all of their suspicious activity, especially someone who was a criminal with you and saved your life a bunch of times.
I just don't think you can say 'the ending was bad' when you've only seen the first third of the movie. Sure it seems like a happy ending but wait for the rest of the stories before criticising it for that as things may change.
Yeah, your disappointment for the campaign stems from the undeserved hype generated through Blizzard's marketing of the game.
I don't think Blizzard expected all the hype that was created for the campaign, although this hype would have naturally developed since blizzard mostly used cinematics from the single player to market SC2.
However, it's very understandable why they would use mostly single-player elements to advertise the game; firstly, because it's much easier to work with, and secondly, because casual players, non-dedicated consumers, and people unfamiliar with RTS would be more interested by action-packed cinematics than all the technical aspects of a new RTS game (Battle.net, new units and unit mechanics, in-game graphics, etc etc)
Although I think the story in SC2 is a step down from what it was in BW, I'd like to think that Blizzard knows as much as anyone else that the multi-player aspect of StarCraft is what made the game so successful, therefore it's somewhat understandable that they neglected the single player in favor of the multi player.
In short, Blizzard used over-hyped single player elements to market a game that is largely built for a good multiplayer experience, thus generating disappointment in the single player when players get around to playing the campaign.
Hey wasn't Tychus sent by Valerian not Arcturus? As Valerian was head of the organization of scientists and not Arcturus. Not to mention, Valerian was acting independently.
On August 05 2010 10:17 SouthRawrea wrote: Hey wasn't Tychus sent by Valerian not Arcturus? As Valerian was head of the organization of scientists and not Arcturus. Not to mention, Valerian was acting independently.
On August 05 2010 07:23 TOloseGT wrote: We've only seen 1/3 of the story. I wasn't all that satisfied with the Terran campaign in Starcraft original either.
Stop making these comparisons. This is not the equivalent of the Terran campaign. It's the equivalent of all of Classic SC.
No it's not, why should it it? Blizzard obviously chose to split this game into 3 parts, who knows why. Oh we can guess, but no one outside of the development team and whoever they told actually knows.
It's one of the worst stories to come out of a video game in the past decade.
errr no, quite frankly there are far far far worse stories over the past decade. I know this is a personal quality judgement, but your statement is so far from the truth that I can pretty safely say it's flat out wrong. I thought the story was well done, and while I may have been more impressed with the BW story line (could just be nostalgia), sc2's plot is much better than most other games.
megnsk could have made tychus kill raynor but he wants kerrigan dead for a reason that its not even mentioned in the game which will become more clear in the next game thats why theirs 3 games... and kate lockwell was funny you cant complicate the game and make to serious or becomes dull and boring i loved watching the news because it was funny how she was telling the truth when the other makes them sound even worse in a good way lol
I have to agree with you. The plot had a lot of holes in it and the dumbed-down characters was irritating. I was expecting more grand scheme from Mengsk. He's someone with good judgement and a sharp mind - it didn't show.
On August 05 2010 07:23 TOloseGT wrote: We've only seen 1/3 of the story. I wasn't all that satisfied with the Terran campaign in Starcraft original either.
Stop making these comparisons. This is not the equivalent of the Terran campaign. It's the equivalent of all of Classic SC.
This is like bitching about ME 1 because it didn't complete the story. Stop making unfair compairisons. The fact is this is only a THIRD of the story and it should be considered as much. Anyone who thinks that you have to look at this in a vacuum probably hated Half-life 2 as well because it was only half of the game.
On August 04 2010 20:54 Random() wrote: The invasion of Char makes about as much sense. In the end of BW, BOTH the terrans and the protoss were crushed by the Zerg and forced to run. Zerg ruled the Universe. Then 4 years later, a PART of the dominion fleet that couldn't even hold the Zerg attack on their own worlds is able to invade the Zerg homeworld and kill their leader?
To be fair, all they really did was manage to survive for about half an hour with the aid of a relic that pretty much wiped out all zerg nearby. So within their fiction, yes it makes sense
I loved the game and I loved the end even when I knew it was coming. But this is not the game they are selling. This is the campaign for Terran they are selling. You will have the full game once the Zerg and Protoss campaigns' are completed.
The only thing I think that they need to improve upon is the dialogue. Because some of it sounded so bad and stupid I cringed and had to turn away.
The only thing I miss and hope they can expand upon is the element of surprise, and the drama created with that surprise. The next game I hope they do not show the half the storyline. I'm 100% sure that if I had not seen any of the spoilers, the commericals, and etc that I would have been more happy with the game.
All of the spoilers, interviews, and commericals added to the hype, but when they released the game and I finished it, I realized I had seen almost 2/3 of the game's story and knew what was gonna happen before I even played the game. They just need to keep the rest of the story a secret for the next expansions.
What I miss about the BW ending, was that it left a bitter feeling in my mouth. In the sc2 campaign there are way, too, many feel good moments.
Not to mention they copy pasted a mission from the first T campaign... That killed the creativity for me that early.
I didnt mind the voice acting too much, I am good at getting used to new stuff like that. I liked the twist that Kerrigan HAD to stay alive, that's the climax for me... It killed it for me that the cinematic where Zeratul / Kerrigan fight, was the ONLY part of the "old kerrigan". They tried to pull a Kerrigan (like she infiltrated the toss during their sc bw campaign) with Tychus. And I didnt even need our favorite spectre to give me the thought that he wasn't totally clean. (Though I killed him before I got more info than "someone on your crew is a traitor" message.
On August 04 2010 12:19 Clutch8 wrote: I loved the story. The ending was what I wanted and never thought I would get.
My thoughts exactly.
+1 Man i wanted that so bad but always was=> Some shit is going to happend and this will be a damn tragic end like it is most of the time... and then Victory god damn i was so damn happy i got chills on the end of the vid.
I, for one, most emphatically DO NOT miss the bitter ending of SC BW. To be honest, I've gotten sick over the years of Blizzard's enormously depressing story lines. This was a very nice departure from that.
Loved the ending. It was extraordinarily satisfying. I've been waiting ten years (since the release of BW) for Raynor to save his lady, and he finally did it In my mind, it was an epic story of personal devotion...he literally went to the ends of the earth burning a path of destruction through whoever and whatever stood in his path, just to get her back. And he did it.
On August 04 2010 12:19 Clutch8 wrote: I loved the story. The ending was what I wanted and never thought I would get.
My thoughts exactly.
+1 Man i wanted that so bad but always was=> Some shit is going to happend and this will be a damn tragic end like it is most of the time... and then Victory god damn i was so damn happy i got chills on the end of the vid.
I'm with ya. It was awesome. Brought a tear to my eye
Finally, FINALLY Blizzard let the good guys win one. He brought her home, finally
I have to say that I was really into Zeratul's missions, but once I heard "I love it when a plan comes together" from the 'Fallen One', after 'In Utter Darkness', it completely ruined the atmosphere. Who knew Hannibal Smith was so evil.
Strongly disliked the ending, Queen of Blades was the best character the storyline of SC had by far. Human Kerrigan, or even a Kerrigan sympathetic to terran goals is going to really ruin Heart of the Swarm if they go that way. I want the murdering, evil, psychotic bitch back.
It's one of the worst stories to come out of a video game in the past decade.
errr no, quite frankly there are far far far worse stories over the past decade. I know this is a personal quality judgement, but your statement is so far from the truth that I can pretty safely say it's flat out wrong. I thought the story was well done, and while I may have been more impressed with the BW story line (could just be nostalgia), sc2's plot is much better than most other games.
And the bolded part lets me say that your opinion is flat out wrong. The story was terribly delivered and is unbelievably cliche, with rehashed story elements that any respectable writer laugh at.
To be fair, all they really did was manage to survive for about half an hour with the aid of a relic that pretty much wiped out all zerg nearby. So within their fiction, yes it makes sense
Google "Deus ex machina".
Super weapons don't count as "Making sense", or good story telling in general.
This is like bitching about ME 1 because it didn't complete the story. Stop making unfair compairisons. The fact is this is only a THIRD of the story and it should be considered as much. Anyone who thinks that you have to look at this in a vacuum probably hated Half-life 2 as well because it was only half of the game.
No matter what your stance is, being 1/3rd of the story isn't justification for an entire stand-alone game's story to be complete and utter shit.
I, for one, most emphatically DO NOT miss the bitter ending of SC BW. To be honest, I've gotten sick over the years of Blizzard's enormously depressing story lines. This was a very nice departure from that.
Blizzard isn't incredibly depressing...
Warcraft:
Orcs & Humans - Orcs wipe out Azeroth. Evil wins.
Tides of Darkness - Humans destroy the Dark Portal. Good wins.
Beyond the Dark Portal - Orcs escape but Humans destroy the Portal again. Neutral ending.
Reign of Chaos - Archimonde is slain. Overall, good wins.
The Frozen Throne - Orcs secure Durotar, Night Elves save the world, Blood Elves escape and get what they want, Arthas becomes Lich King. Neutral/good ending.
Diablo:
1 - Kill Diablo, but good guy goes crazy. Neutral/evil ending.
2 - Kill All 3 brothers. Good ending.
Starcraft:
Classic - Overmind is killed, but with heavy losses. Overall, good wins.
Brood War - Kerrigan crushes everyone. Evil wins.
Wing of Liberty - Kerrigan is de-infested. Good wins.
Hardly an overly depressing company. This isn't 40k or anything like that...
On August 04 2010 14:58 MIKE HUTN EASY wrote: hahahahahahahahahahahahaha omg you put all this effort in to complete crap, Tychus was working for mobeius,not mengsk, and say w/e you want like oh same thing, it wasn't, tychus wanted to be free stated when he fights raynor and says he got a taste of freedom and thats what he wants, he wanted to take down mengsk, seriously if your going to complain about plot holes you should have a half competent understand of the plot, I think you were the one hit in the head before this game, but thanks for the LULZ
User was temp banned for this post.
My brain overloaded trying to decipher this nonsense O_o
a bit of a let down following the broodwar campaing. The characters just dont feel as good or as consistent as they did in broodwar. The fact that the voice acting was done separately is painfully obvious. The flow is broken in-between scenes which makes Raynor look like he had mad moodswings. Raynor was a weak character in this game. He drinks but you dont get to see how drinking takes a toll on his performance, or how the crew disrespects him because of it, or how far gone he was from his former glory. Tychus talks a lot about "the good old days" with raynor, but the relationship they share is distant and more like that of a merc and employer than old friends. There should have been at least a flashback mission to build on that relationship.
And I think what hurt wings of liberty the most was the lack of a good villain. Menkst looks to be just another meathead all talk no walk emperor, tychus' betrayal was hardly a surprise, and inconsequential because he didnt succeed. Kerrigan doesnt do anything particularly sinister in the campaign. In broodwar she tricks and kills Fenix and backstabs the protoss after tricking everyone into believing in her innocence. She was fabulous in broodwar, but in WoL all she does is walk around and look pretty/creepy.
The cinematics in WoL was jaw droppingly beautiful, but the narration is really bland.
Also, zeratul's switch from a fearsome warrior into a weak prophet who doesnt even stay to chat with old friends completely robs him of his stylishness.
I hope zerg expansion does a better job of telling the story.
After the secret mission I immediately assumed that Duran was mind controlling Mengsk the whole time. Ever notice how he could give 2 shits about Raynor stopping him? His focus was the zerg the whole time. (Mind control might explain his character change...As for Raynor..I don't have much theory there except he drank a lot and he went through TONS of shit in the earlier parts of the SC saga.)
Also, why would they want Tychus to kill Kerrigan...NOT Raynor..?
The only thing I assumed at the ending was Mengsk has to be a puppet due to the fact that they knew if Kerrigan was dead, no one could stop the zerg.
How it was delivered? Could have been way better, but I am usually pretty good at predicting sequals, and I can pretty much taste Mengsk being a puppet at the tip of my tongue right now. Not only by ordering Tychus to kill Kerrigan will the T/P not stand a chance, but that means Duran has the possibility of taking over the swarm.
The problem with the Wing of Libery campaign is the obvious and disappointing shift in priorities at blizzard.
SC1 was the debut of the series. Blizzard needed to make a comprehensive game with a solid, engaging setting and story. They also needed to make a fun, balanced multiplayer.
Then, the worst possible thing for the story happened. SC became an eSport, and the priorities for StarCraft shifted into "Make a perfect eSports game. Oh, and you guys, make a campaign mode, too."
That's exactly what it feels like, a "campaign mode". It doesn't feel like a continuation of the story. The characters (almost) all have the same names. Their personalities are (somewhat) the same, but StarCraft isn't about the StarCraft story anymore. It's about being an eSport.
We can only hope Blizzard realizes how important the story really is to the community before the next expansion.
On August 06 2010 17:49 Zerokaiser wrote: The problem with the Wing of Libery campaign is the obvious and disappointing shift in priorities at blizzard.
SC1 was the debut of the series. Blizzard needed to make a comprehensive game with a solid, engaging setting and story. They also needed to make a fun, balanced multiplayer.
Then, the worst possible thing for the story happened. SC became an eSport, and the priorities for StarCraft shifted into "Make a perfect eSports game. Oh, and you guys, make a campaign mode, too."
That's exactly what it feels like, a "campaign mode". It doesn't feel like a continuation of the story. The characters (almost) all have the same names. Their personalities are (somewhat) the same, but StarCraft isn't about the StarCraft story anymore. It's about being an eSport.
We can only hope Blizzard realizes how important the story really is to the community before the next expansion.
I *wish* Blizzard's design plan was "make a perfect Esports game". Unfortunately you are very much mistaken and that is not at all what happened.
Mengsk is a tactical genius, and I think this is why:
He sent Tychus, under the guise of the Mobius Foundation, to let Raynor collect all the artifacts so he could uninfest Kerrigan. He relayed the info to Valerian who told Raynor the artifacts they were collecting could help "save" Kerrigan, when in the end its all a huge ruse to assassinate her through Tychus. The feud between Valerian and Mengsk was all fake, or either orchestrated by Mengsk, because Mengsk needed his son to tell Raynor to use the artifacts to de-infest Kerrigan, so he could use his pawn Tychus to kill her when she's nice, squisy and human.
Also the secret mission shows that Mengsk is some how in league with Duran and the hybrids. Sadly, my theory is that everything Raynor did was all part of Mengsk's little plan - Mengsk drove Raynor to carry out his deeds through Tychus, the artifacts, and Mobius. Of course there were probably unexpected hiccups along the way, including the broadcast sabatoge and POSSIBLY Tychus's failure to assassinate Kerrigan, but who knows.
On August 04 2010 11:56 nemanja1503 wrote: Like the stupid filler missions in which we earn money. That would have been a nice idea if they had like 40 missions in total and were aiming in portraying Raynor's revolution in detail and had you spend 15 missions collecting funds and then 10 missions doing covert ops with Tosh or some other missions in which you don't produce troops (like the secret mission) all of those mixed up with about 15 plot advancing missions. Now that would be an epic campaign, but no. What happened is that too many missions feel like filler from the story perspective, and when we take out the filler missions we get about 10 important missions, exactly how many there were per race in SC1 when all races were in the same game.
This is by far your most valid point and I felt the same way times 10. It felt much much shorter then the original, despite being more expensive than most games. In fact for a campaign marketed as the most epic thing in history, it was VERY lacking, in fact it felt MUCH less epic that many of the games I played in recent past that were 10-20 bucks cheaper.
However, for the rest of your post I think you are being too harsh. I would guess most people here are in the 18-35 demographic which means most of us played SC1 when we were teens/preteens, back when we were young and impressionable, and didn't know what a good story really looked liked.
What we forget is that SC/BW's story wasn't really that great, it was also full of holes and lacked character motivation; its time line seems unrealistic (all those events of SC + BW taking less than a year?), and it lacked for sight; many of the holes I found in SC2 were the result of SC's story being made up as they went along. The fact is that most game's stories suck. The only ones that are decent are the adventure games, of which their whole selling point is the story, and the game is built from the ground up around that fact.
At its core SC will always be a competitive online game. The story will always be the second or even third priority (I would say game mechanics 1, balance 2). By that standard SC had an amazing story. I can't think of many other games built from the ground up for online competition who's single player was on par with SC. True, there are many games that far surpass SC's single player by leaps and bounds but they are supposed to, since most of them don't even have a multi-player option, and is focused on story telling.
If you ever play a game like The Longest Journey or Deus Ex or one of the classic Sierra/Lucas game, or my personal favorite Vampire Bloodlines; you will know what the height of gaming storytelling can be. SC2 doesn't reach those heights, but to pretend SC1 did is to fall in the trap of nostalgic revisionist memory. What SC2 offers is a squeal and update to the greatest pro league game of all time. It is by that standard that you can criticize its single player.
This however leads to an underling question as to weather or not the expansions should be purchased if there main focus is on the campaign and not multi-player. My answer is that if money is tight, which for most of us it is, than by judging from the quality of WoL, I would say no. There is just no way to justify buying a game's campaign in three $60+ installments unless it is out of this world incredibly epic. SC2 isn't even remotely close to that qualification. I see no reason why all three campaigns weren't including considering the price tag. If that's the best Blizzard can do with a reported $100 million dollar budget and SEVEN years of development than there needs everyone associated with the project needs to be fired.
Anyone else notice how Tychus uses a lazer and waits so Raynor can see before he shoots. It's pretty obvious Tychus wants Raynor to stop him but Tychus has to go along with the plan since the suits reactor can be overloaded if he disobeys
On August 06 2010 13:33 DreXxiN wrote: Also, why would they want Tychus to kill Kerrigan...NOT Raynor..?
Because Raynor still loves Kerrigan. Why else would he keep a picture of her, as seen in the beginning of the campaign?
So...they wanted to hurt Raynor's feelings?
It wasn't enough to simply kill Raynor. Tosh explained that during the campaign. Mengsk had to discredit Raynor first.
Can you imagine what Raynor would do if Mengsk had had her killed? He'd either have offed himself or gone berserk. Either way, Mengsk would've been rid of him in a way that didn't make him into a martyr.
On August 06 2010 09:21 Fimbulwinter wrote: Strongly disliked the ending, Queen of Blades was the best character the storyline of SC had by far. Human Kerrigan, or even a Kerrigan sympathetic to terran goals is going to really ruin Heart of the Swarm if they go that way. I want the murdering, evil, psychotic bitch back.
I'm glad the evil psychotic bitch is gone and we have our cute little redheaded ghost operative back Been waiting 10 years for it too.
Honestly I disapprove of the ending, it just doesn't seem like it can transition into two more full length campaigns without forcing something.
Kerrigan has been cleansed, so logically she should have no more control over the zerg. If she does it will feel like they are stretching it and if she doesn't then how will we have a zerg campaign that feels right? The only way I can see that would be if she was only like 99% cleansed and the infestation took over her again but that would defeat the entire purpose of this campaign.
Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind if the zerg campaign was not about Kerrigan. Let the zerg actually be ruled by a ZERG instead of some wannabe. How would you feel if the protoss campaign revolved around a zerg or terran being the ruler of all protoss? I want to be immersed into all things zerg in HotS - don't dilute it by making a terran their leader. How about a new overmind or a battle between competing queens, until "there can be only one"? Anything is better for the zerg campaign than having a romance backdrop.
Really, it´s not exactly the Plot that is the problem it´s the way the story ISN´T structured. Let me quote myself regarding what is good about the Campaign story and what isn´t:
On August 06 2010 17:45 Unentschieden wrote: The game gives you a nightmare/flashback sequence TWICE to the key moment on Tarsonis (the old adjutant and a cinematic) when Mengsk abandons Kerrigan. This is THE defining event for Raynors character. Remember after the original Terran campaign the next thing he does is follow Kerrigans "lure" where he discovers her Transformation. This motivates him to aid the Protoss in defeating the Overmind. In the Brood wars he has to realise that the Queen of Blades is no longer Kerrigan but a monster with her face and declares that he needs to finish the issue. He still blames himself (and Arcturus) for the events on Tarsonis. After Broodwars he can´t really do anything about Kerrigan so he keeps himself busy with his revenge against Arcturus with limited success initially.
The Wol story actually picks up on all these points: Especially in the "Horner" Missions it´s evident that he considers stopping the current goverment (Mengsk) his concern but building a new "better" one Matt Horners. Matt knows this but disagrees - cue the "we are waiting for you" conversations. His position on Zerg infestation is handled in the Colonist Subplot, the conflict of revenge against Arcturus no matter the cost to what is "best" for the Population. It´s a similar Matter as well with Tychus, he is Raynors best friend but he also is contra Kerrigan the whole time. Despite certain weak motivations (they need to plant a bomb in his suit to make him "kill Kerrigan or die") the point in the end is that Raynor choses Kerrigan over him.
With all the above the "Story" fits and develops Raynors character rather well even if they fail to connect the plot (both due to irrelevance of the events to each other and the free missionchoice which weakens the building of Tension). What they did very well however is the consistency between Plot and Missionevents, there is no longer the player wiping the map but the cutscene showing the Heroes barely escaping. Also the few Missions without "options" (the first and last 3 each) are great about connecting the events and building tension.
The Protoss minicampaign however is a PROTOSS campaign, yes they put it in context to Raynor but it actually relates to how the Protoss get a warning of their "gods" as told by one of their greatest Heroes. The narrative with heroic sacrifices, ancient prophecys and "the end of the universe" doesn´t fit at all with the Space western Terrans but it DOES fit with the Mystic and ancient Protoss. I think of it as a sequence from Legacy of the Void that they snuck into WoL to have Protoss in the campaign - which only appear otherwise as Selendis cameo and Superflat bad guys the Tal´darim. Remember in the Prophecy itself the Protoss are blaming themselves for killing Kerrigan. Raynor isn´t mentioned AT ALL, there is no reason for Zeratul to talk to Raynor about it but some off screen relevation about it. And for how important it appears to be - why don´t any Protoss show up, neither to help fight Kerrigan or even to protect her? The prophecy is "problematic" because it´s outside the Terran campaigns plot and story. The other sidequests are "merely" outside the plot.
Raynors character isn´t in conflict between killing Kerrigan and preventing the Prophecy -that´s the Protoss, he is in conflict between saving his comrade (lover?) and killing the monster that wears her Face.
I thought the campaign was a lot of fun. All the missions, in my view, had a purpose.
Mar Sara - A nod to the original StarCraft, good introduction missions that set the tone for the story (relationship with Mengsk, the attack of the Zerg)
Hanson - These missions aren't plot related, but more storyline related. They give us some insight as to what the Zerg are doing (saying that they're attacking Terran colonies in news reports is nice - much more fun to actually see it), as well as a good introduction of the Protoss and how they're reacting to the new Zerg offensive.
Tosh - I'm the most dissapointed with these missions. They seemed rather gimmicky, they wanted to throw Nova in so they just stuck her here because these missions don't really have a point. I guess it's an introduction to Spectres in SC lore, but it just felt out of place.
Horner - This fit nicely in with the fact that they are actually rebelling against Mengsk. The missions were unique, and the first few were resource constrained which fit in with the theme that Raynor doesn't have a million credits. I liked the variety of missions they had in here.
Zeratul - Probably the best IMO. You have the backstory being set up for the entire SC2 campaign, and they had some amazing missions. How better to foretell the fall of the worlds then by showing the last stand.
Tychus - Lead-in to the Zerg missions, gives feel that getting this Artifact isn't the easiest thing in the books, and that there's more things going on with Raynor than what he initially sees.
Zerg - Lots of fun, had a mixture of A-move and defense. Wraps up the story neatly.
I thought the writing was just as good as some other games. They did a great job of capturing the feel of the world. If you wanted to see Raynor go and focus on one massive plot, I think you're missing the point of this campaign. It was much more of a ground-up feeling of what was going on, rather than just epic battles.
Completely agree with OP. And for those of you who think that its because I played BW when I was 10 years younger, you're wrong. I first played BW only 3 years ago
I *wish* Blizzard's design plan was "make a perfect Esports game". Unfortunately you are very much mistaken and that is not at all what happened.
I'm not saying they did, but it was what was at the back of their minds.
In SC1, it was "This game has to have a really good single player or people won't like it."
In SC2, it was "This game has to be a really good eSport or people won't like it."
No. Blizzard isn't out to make a perfect esport. They're out to maximize profit. Now this is completely understandable because that's what a company would do, but please don't delude yourself. They are not trying to make the second coming of the best competitive game ever. They are trying to maximize profit and the best way to do that is to cater to the casuals.
Ask yourself, if blizzard's #1 goal was to make a perfect e-sports, would we be seeing things like:
MBS/automine Smart casting Hard counters No LAN or cross realm?
Of course not. Everyone and their grandmother here on TL knows that adding these features is at best imprudent and at worst disastrous to the competitive scene.
On August 06 2010 22:27 Unentschieden wrote: Because that is exactly the plot of Broodwars.
Really, it´s not exactly the Plot that is the problem it´s the way the story ISN´T structured. Let me quote myself regarding what is good about the Campaign story and what isn´t:
On August 06 2010 17:45 Unentschieden wrote: The game gives you a nightmare/flashback sequence TWICE to the key moment on Tarsonis (the old adjutant and a cinematic) when Mengsk abandons Kerrigan. This is THE defining event for Raynors character. Remember after the original Terran campaign the next thing he does is follow Kerrigans "lure" where he discovers her Transformation. This motivates him to aid the Protoss in defeating the Overmind. In the Brood wars he has to realise that the Queen of Blades is no longer Kerrigan but a monster with her face and declares that he needs to finish the issue. He still blames himself (and Arcturus) for the events on Tarsonis. After Broodwars he can´t really do anything about Kerrigan so he keeps himself busy with his revenge against Arcturus with limited success initially.
The Wol story actually picks up on all these points: Especially in the "Horner" Missions it´s evident that he considers stopping the current goverment (Mengsk) his concern but building a new "better" one Matt Horners. Matt knows this but disagrees - cue the "we are waiting for you" conversations. His position on Zerg infestation is handled in the Colonist Subplot, the conflict of revenge against Arcturus no matter the cost to what is "best" for the Population. It´s a similar Matter as well with Tychus, he is Raynors best friend but he also is contra Kerrigan the whole time. Despite certain weak motivations (they need to plant a bomb in his suit to make him "kill Kerrigan or die") the point in the end is that Raynor choses Kerrigan over him.
With all the above the "Story" fits and develops Raynors character rather well even if they fail to connect the plot (both due to irrelevance of the events to each other and the free missionchoice which weakens the building of Tension). What they did very well however is the consistency between Plot and Missionevents, there is no longer the player wiping the map but the cutscene showing the Heroes barely escaping. Also the few Missions without "options" (the first and last 3 each) are great about connecting the events and building tension.
The Protoss minicampaign however is a PROTOSS campaign, yes they put it in context to Raynor but it actually relates to how the Protoss get a warning of their "gods" as told by one of their greatest Heroes. The narrative with heroic sacrifices, ancient prophecys and "the end of the universe" doesn´t fit at all with the Space western Terrans but it DOES fit with the Mystic and ancient Protoss. I think of it as a sequence from Legacy of the Void that they snuck into WoL to have Protoss in the campaign - which only appear otherwise as Selendis cameo and Superflat bad guys the Tal´darim. Remember in the Prophecy itself the Protoss are blaming themselves for killing Kerrigan. Raynor isn´t mentioned AT ALL, there is no reason for Zeratul to talk to Raynor about it but some off screen relevation about it. And for how important it appears to be - why don´t any Protoss show up, neither to help fight Kerrigan or even to protect her? The prophecy is "problematic" because it´s outside the Terran campaigns plot and story. The other sidequests are "merely" outside the plot.
Raynors character isn´t in conflict between killing Kerrigan and preventing the Prophecy -that´s the Protoss, he is in conflict between saving his comrade (lover?) and killing the monster that wears her Face.
Good post. WOL was about Raynor more than anything. In the end, he loved Sarah Kerrigan more than he hated Mengsk. That's the real insight we get into his character.
I just hope Blizzard doesn't kill off either one of them in the subsequent campaigns or re-infests her.
On August 04 2010 19:35 hoppipolla wrote: Wait, what's up with Tassadar anyway? He comes flying out of nowhere "Sup Zeratul, not really dead LOL" then just flies away and you never see him again?? Is he a god now? Is he a Xel'naga? That was such a stupid part, just leave dead characters dead. If I see Tychus or Fenix alive in Heart of the SwarmI'll be raging hardcore and stop caring about the story completely.
He's become one with the Force... oops, I mean the Khala. That was pretty random and goofy. I like that the Overmind might come back though.
I finished the campaign last night and while I liked the story with Kerrigan, Tychus, etc., some things did sort of disappoint me.
The whole hybrid/return of the xel'naga arc bugs me. It would be cool as a surprise at the end of Legacy of the Void, but it just feels like Warcraft 3 again with the Scourge and boring super-powerful villains with no personality that fit better in an RPG than a strategy game. The xel'naga were cool because they were a dead race and we only got to see traces of them. Now they're back to wipe everyone out, and it's boring. I think it's more interesting when Starcraft is just about the 3 races and their conflicts. I can see the hybrid thing developing into a 4th race in the expansions, which brings back bad memories of the Frozen Throne - a game where half the time you don't even play as the race you selected, but rather the Naga or Blood Elves. I thought the prophecy as a whole was dumb and the Zeratul missions were boring, especially In Utter Darkness.
In terms of gameplay I wished there were more "destroy all enemies" missions and a lot fewer "protect this unit" or "hold out in your base" missions. Blizzard clearly disagrees with me there. I re-played SC and BW this spring, and there wasn't anything in WoL as exhilirating as say, the last Terran mission in Broodwar with the 3 cerebrates and the Torrasque. In BW the Zerg mission to get 10,000 minerals was an interesting challenge; this time, the lava mission where you have to get 8,000 minerals was mostly just tedious, how is it fun to spend half a mission hiding in your base? Blizzard worked so hard to make the missions smarter, where you have to stop a train or keep the Odin alive or move your base every few minutes, but the campaigns in SC and BW were much less creative and were still very fun. Sometimes I just want to build a base up and go out and kill everything with brute force. There's a certain satisfaction you get from beating a mission by wiping out every last enemy, you feel like a winner, like "take THAT, b-tch!"; it doesn't feel the same when you "win" by just surviving for 30 minutes (or by letting the enemy wipe you out only after you kill 3000 of them? Seriously?). I guess that's what multiplayer is for, huh?
Wouldn't All-In have been more fun if the goal was to kill every last Zerg on the map until Kerrigan had no support left, and then use the artifact on her? Instead you spend the whole mission getting your a$$ kicked. It's kind of a downer.
That said, I did enjoy the game quite a bit and will replay the campaign a couple times for the achievements.
On August 06 2010 22:35 writer22816 wrote: Completely agree with OP. And for those of you who think that its because I played BW when I was 10 years younger, you're wrong. I first played BW only 3 years ago
I *wish* Blizzard's design plan was "make a perfect Esports game". Unfortunately you are very much mistaken and that is not at all what happened.
I'm not saying they did, but it was what was at the back of their minds.
In SC1, it was "This game has to have a really good single player or people won't like it."
In SC2, it was "This game has to be a really good eSport or people won't like it."
No. Blizzard isn't out to make a perfect esport. They're out to maximize profit. Now this is completely understandable because that's what a company would do, but please don't delude yourself. They are not trying to make the second coming of the best competitive game ever. They are trying to maximize profit and the best way to do that is to cater to the casuals.
Ask yourself, if blizzard's #1 goal was to make a perfect e-sports, would we be seeing things like:
MBS/automine Smart casting Hard counters No LAN or cross realm?
Of course not. Everyone and their grandmother here on TL knows that adding these features is at best imprudent and at worst disastrous to the competitive scene.
All those things, save for LAN and cross-realm, have nothing to do with a competitive game. Hell, Xbox360 games are competitively played and they have auto-aim ffs.
I think the story was fine, though my main complaint was the massive Dues Ex Machina that the artifact served as.
I've never played SC1, so I guess the shittiness of Mengsk wasn't a problem for me.
Other than that, I definitely WANTED them to fix Kerrigan, but I think the whole "you know that relic you've been gathering? it will turn her back!" was lazy and poorly written.
I don't think the campaign was short, though I was playing on Brutal from the start.
Landing successfully on char seemed weird, was hoping for nukes clearing a landing zone, would have been more badass.
Hope the expacs have more depth (and they come sooner than 2-3 years away) but oh well, a near perfectly balanced RTS is the only thing that can satisfy everyone.
The campaign story was lame. But i enjoyed playing, and the Kerrigan betrayed cinematic was absolutely awesome.
And its not like BW didnt have convenient illogical and lame parts to its campaign.
Now I just want to know how they are going to have characters in the Zerg third of the campaign? Are we going to play a Hydralisk, pulling together his ragtag gang of zerg to bring Kerrigan back?
On August 07 2010 03:23 Blaec wrote: The campaign story was lame. But i enjoyed playing, and the Kerrigan betrayed cinematic was absolutely awesome.
And its not like BW didnt have convenient illogical and lame parts to its campaign.
Now I just want to know how they are going to have characters in the Zerg third of the campaign? Are we going to play a Hydralisk, pulling together his ragtag gang of zerg to bring Kerrigan back?
No, you'll probably play Kerrigan. She'll happily agree to join Raynor & Co. and add the Zerg to his forces (I think the Zergy hair left over is an indicator that she's not completely cured and can still control the Zerg - otherwise what was the point of the prophecy? If she can't control them anymore, then Raynor just fucked everyone in the butt), so she will have to rebuild her power...again...by zipping around the galaxy picking up Zerg strains and evolutions.
Then, on Mission 21, she'll probably go AWOL, when Mengsk makes himself vulnerable somehow, and go kick his ass.
This is by far your most valid point and I felt the same way times 10. It felt much much shorter then the original, despite being more expensive than most games. In fact for a campaign marketed as the most epic thing in history, it was VERY lacking, in fact it felt MUCH less epic that many of the games I played in recent past that were 10-20 bucks cheaper.
However, for the rest of your post I think you are being too harsh. I would guess most people here are in the 18-35 demographic which means most of us played SC1 when we were teens/preteens, back when we were young and impressionable, and didn't know what a good story really looked liked.
What we forget is that SC/BW's story wasn't really that great, it was also full of holes and lacked character motivation; its time line seems unrealistic (all those events of SC + BW taking less than a year?), and it lacked for sight; many of the holes I found in SC2 were the result of SC's story being made up as they went along. The fact is that most game's stories suck. The only ones that are decent are the adventure games, of which their whole selling point is the story, and the game is built from the ground up around that fact.
At its core SC will always be a competitive online game. The story will always be the second or even third priority (I would say game mechanics 1, balance 2). By that standard SC had an amazing story. I can't think of many other games built from the ground up for online competition who's single player was on par with SC. True, there are many games that far surpass SC's single player by leaps and bounds but they are supposed to, since most of them don't even have a multi-player option, and is focused on story telling.
If you ever play a game like The Longest Journey or Deus Ex or one of the classic Sierra/Lucas game, or my personal favorite Vampire Bloodlines; you will know what the height of gaming storytelling can be. SC2 doesn't reach those heights, but to pretend SC1 did is to fall in the trap of nostalgic revisionist memory. What SC2 offers is a squeal and update to the greatest pro league game of all time. It is by that standard that you can criticize its single player.
This however leads to an underling question as to weather or not the expansions should be purchased if there main focus is on the campaign and not multi-player. My answer is that if money is tight, which for most of us it is, than by judging from the quality of WoL, I would say no. There is just no way to justify buying a game's campaign in three $60+ installments unless it is out of this world incredibly epic. SC2 isn't even remotely close to that qualification. I see no reason why all three campaigns weren't including considering the price tag. If that's the best Blizzard can do with a reported $100 million dollar budget and SEVEN years of development than there needs everyone associated with the project needs to be fired.
I played Vampires Bloodlines, and yes it is awesome. But I would not go as far as compare that with SC, not only because as you said its a single player only game, an RPG at that, but because the focus of VB is to portray a "persons" adventure. and the focus of a strategy game is to show us epic conflicts.
This brings me to another point. I find it that too few SCII cinematics show large scale combat or any combat for that matter, if I remember them all correctly there are three good cinematics from that POV, escape from Mar Sara, arrival on Char and KerriVSZerathul.
Also does any one else feel that it's a great shame that the last stand of the Protoss wasn't a cinematic, that would have been the best moment in the game imo.
On August 07 2010 05:37 nemanja1503 wrote: This brings me to another point. I find it that too few SCII cinematics show large scale combat or any combat for that matter, if I remember them all correctly there are three good cinematics from that POV, escape from Mar Sara, arrival on Char and KerriVSZerathul.
Also does any one else feel that it's a great shame that the last stand of the Protoss wasn't a cinematic, that would have been the best moment in the game imo.
This touches on something that's been under my skin about Blizzard cinematics for a while now. In the old days of SC1 and even WarCraft 2, cinematics mostly featured low level fighters, you might say they were more "democratic." One of my favorites involved marines boarding a science vessel to blow it up, and then getting attacked by hydralisks. Or the one with the truckers in the desert finding a dead zergling. Or the Dominion propoganda video. That stuff was silly as hell, but fun.
Increasingly since WarCraft 3, cinematics are about the heroes, and as a result are longer and less frequent. The cutscenes in WoL were fantastic, but I wish they'd throw in more short and sweet ones. One of the charms of the old Blizzard games is they don't try to be all "epic" all the time.
On August 06 2010 19:35 alsowikk wrote: Anyone else notice how Tychus uses a lazer and waits so Raynor can see before he shoots. It's pretty obvious Tychus wants Raynor to stop him but Tychus has to go along with the plan since the suits reactor can be overloaded if he disobeys
I initially missed this, but have been thinking more of it lately.
It's nice to think that, and it fits in with Tychus's "inner struggle" but it also makes Raynor an ass. It is plain to see that Tychus is in a bind (literally) and he should have reacted way sooner and helped his old friend, rather then help him commit assisted suicide. They can still salvage this by keeping Tychus alive (and in fact saved by Raynor's shot somehow) because we never see him die and there is one rule with blizzard that has been proven true time and time again and that is if a character is not seen explicitly dead (and sometimes even then), that character is bound to be back.
On the other hand, it just may be us thinking of things not really there in an attempt to make a poor story better. :-(
PS. I can bet anything that some of the "patches" for plot holes given by people on various forums will be used by the developers with the answer "it was our idea all along" which may be true in some, but not all cases.
On August 06 2010 22:35 writer22816 wrote: Completely agree with OP. And for those of you who think that its because I played BW when I was 10 years younger, you're wrong. I first played BW only 3 years ago
On August 06 2010 18:09 Zerokaiser wrote:
On August 06 2010 18:01 Klive5ive wrote:
I *wish* Blizzard's design plan was "make a perfect Esports game". Unfortunately you are very much mistaken and that is not at all what happened.
I'm not saying they did, but it was what was at the back of their minds.
In SC1, it was "This game has to have a really good single player or people won't like it."
In SC2, it was "This game has to be a really good eSport or people won't like it."
No. Blizzard isn't out to make a perfect esport. They're out to maximize profit. Now this is completely understandable because that's what a company would do, but please don't delude yourself. They are not trying to make the second coming of the best competitive game ever. They are trying to maximize profit and the best way to do that is to cater to the casuals.
Ask yourself, if blizzard's #1 goal was to make a perfect e-sports, would we be seeing things like:
MBS/automine Smart casting Hard counters No LAN or cross realm?
Of course not. Everyone and their grandmother here on TL knows that adding these features is at best imprudent and at worst disastrous to the competitive scene.
All those things, save for LAN and cross-realm, have nothing to do with a competitive game. Hell, Xbox360 games are competitively played and they have auto-aim ffs.
Perhaps I should elaborate myself. Yes it is possible to have a competitive RTS with MBS/automine/smart casting. But if you were out to make the #1 esport, is it prudent to include these features? No. They require a ton of balancing + micro/macro mechanics otherwise they take out a significant portion of skill.
On August 07 2010 03:02 Ichabod wrote: Landing successfully on char seemed weird, was hoping for nukes clearing a landing zone, would have been more badass.
Hope the expacs have more depth (and they come sooner than 2-3 years away) but oh well, a near perfectly balanced RTS is the only thing that can satisfy everyone.
The landing on Char wasn't totally outlandish, IMO. Keep in mind that the Queen of Blades had her forces out hunting for artifacts, AND Raynor attacked with his entire force and half the Dominion military. I think that would be enough to establish a beach head....but not hold it, which they couldn't. If not for the artifact, they would've gotten their asses kicked.
Needed more central plot missions/cinematics instead of tons of side missions. It should be like 25% side missions and 75% main missions and it felt more like 50/50 or almost more side missions than main missions. Near the end it was awesome. But in the middle at one point I had 5 different missions to choose from and while that's cool to have that freedom, I'm fine with a kickass linear story.
On August 04 2010 21:37 Shaithis wrote:Also, miraS naruD, the head of Moebius Foundation; wtf are we in 3rd grade still?
boom.
also I disagree with the OP regarding one thing, the Mengsk's recording bit. The information was easily forge-able but the fact that the message was played on the UNN network makes it all so much devastating.
On August 06 2010 19:35 alsowikk wrote: Anyone else notice how Tychus uses a lazer and waits so Raynor can see before he shoots. It's pretty obvious Tychus wants Raynor to stop him but Tychus has to go along with the plan since the suits reactor can be overloaded if he disobeys
I initially missed this, but have been thinking more of it lately.
It's nice to think that, and it fits in with Tychus's "inner struggle" but it also makes Raynor an ass. It is plain to see that Tychus is in a bind (literally) and he should have reacted way sooner and helped his old friend, rather then help him commit assisted suicide. They can still salvage this by keeping Tychus alive (and in fact saved by Raynor's shot somehow) because we never see him die and there is one rule with blizzard that has been proven true time and time again and that is if a character is not seen explicitly dead (and sometimes even then), that character is bound to be back.
On the other hand, it just may be us thinking of things not really there in an attempt to make a poor story better. :-(
PS. I can bet anything that some of the "patches" for plot holes given by people on various forums will be used by the developers with the answer "it was our idea all along" which may be true in some, but not all cases.
It's written in single player that he's dead. In BNet SP menu after you finish the game.
Now I just want to know how they are going to have characters in the Zerg third of the campaign? Are we going to play a Hydralisk, pulling together his ragtag gang of zerg to bring Kerrigan back?
This.
The bad guys are now...The Hybrids (which we don't really have any animosity towards, and seem perfectly killable), some Protoss who decided to be assholes (which never really made that much sense) and Mengsk who Raynor was really pissed at for betraying Kerrigan, which has all been patched up now.
I sorta agree with the OP on his points, the plot holes and such, but it didn't make the campaign any less enjoyable for me. It was still fun to play and kept me wanting to know what happened next. The missions I think were very varied and each mission was very different and refreshing.
I honestly think Blizzard did fine with the single player (just look at all the reviews on it).
Of course I'm itching to know what happens next and with Kerrigan and all. But it is going to be a trilogy afterall...can't reveal everything in the first game.
I think the story was pretty good but it was the execution that ruined it. When they had to take a coherent story, then chop it up into bite-size pieces that can interlock in any pattern, they basically ruined any chance of a deep story because emotions and revelations couldn't carry over to other missions until char popped up. Because personality changes couldn't really be implemented like they could in SC1 (Where the effect of one mission would be able to be expressed through the narrative of another mission), they had trouble getting across what was going on in Raynor's mind.
Also, to people complaining about the deus ex machina, you could say the same about the xel'naga temple from BW's protoss campaign. It was an artifact that wiped out all zerg across a planet, was of xel'naga origin, needed parts to be scavenged from around the sector and then put together at the location of its use, and required time to power up, resulting in a "hold the area" mission. It worked just fine in BW, so why is it so bad now?
Also, it was a good setup for the rest of the story. As the first third of the story, it was very good at re-introducing us to the basic terran themes that were created in the first game. Terrans had a very big focus on money, with people able to be swayed by it. The corrupt government holding much power and control but having unrest in the fringes. The plot was set up for the expansions as they reintroduced characters, changed things around a bit, didn't explain everything away, but still allowed for a good ending for Raynor. It's like how in Star Wars, they managed to make a big blow against the Empire and had a great victory and it was happiness all around but they still had a lot to do in the next movies.
They can still do a lot with Mengsk, who might re-gain control of his empire (although how he might do that I have no idea), we still have no concrete idea with what they'll do with the zerg (we can only speculate, they could easily pull something that we didn't expect) and the protoss have a new executor and all sorts of changes to focus on.
Also, to people complaining about the deus ex machina, you could say the same about the xel'naga temple from BW's protoss campaign. It was an artifact that wiped out all zerg across a planet, was of xel'naga origin, needed parts to be scavenged from around the sector and then put together at the location of its use, and required time to power up, resulting in a "hold the area" mission. It worked just fine in BW, so why is it so bad now?
You make a point there, though my biggest question is how they were able to get afoot on Chau Sara, an initial nuclear strike would of made alot more sense rather than just charging into the atmosphere. EDIT: And suddenly taking ground with a half-assed Dominion fleet.
The plot was set up for the expansions as they reintroduced characters, changed things around a bit, didn't explain everything away, but still allowed for a good ending for Raynor. It's like how in Star Wars, they managed to make a big blow against the Empire and had a great victory and it was happiness all around but they still had a lot to do in the next movies.
Yea that sure looks Star Wars-esque like. Might we as well call it Starcraft II: Heart of the Swarm - The Terran Dominion Strikes Back where Darth Mengsk really is a puppet under The Dark Voice (Darth Sideous anyone?). And then the second expansion will be Legacy of the Void - The Return of the Xel'Naga?? Sure bears alot of resemblance to Star Wars. And lets not forget Valerian Mengsk who is Luke Skywalker while Jim Raynor is Han Solo with Matt Horner being his lovely assistant Chewbacca
Yea that sure looks Star Wars-esque like. Might we as well call it Starcraft II: Heart of the Swarm - The Terran Dominion Strikes Back where Darth Mengsk really is a puppet under The Dark Voice (Darth Sideous anyone?). And then the second expansion will be Legacy of the Void - The Return of the Xel'Naga?? Sure bears alot of resemblance to Star Wars. And lets not forget Valerian Mengsk who is Luke Skywalker while Jim Raynor is Han Solo with Matt Horner being his lovely assistant Chewbacca
If Mat was suddenly turned into Chewbacca in SCII:HotS all my grudges would be gone.
If Mat was suddenly turned into Chewbacca in SCII:HotS all my grudges would be gone.
Rwaaaaaaa. :-D
XD hahaha
You make a point there, though my biggest question is how they were able to get afoot on Chau Sara, an initial nuclear strike would of made alot more sense rather than just charging into the atmosphere. EDIT: And suddenly taking ground with a half-assed Dominion fleet.
I think you mean Char lol Well nukes definitely would have made sense lol dunno why they didn't use them. There are a lot of plot holes in respect to what happened between the parts where fleet crashes down trying to get guys to the surface and the artifact gets brought down. But I think it was supposed to be portrayed more as a desperate attempt to hole up after hitting the surface for Raynor and setting up a base camp so that the forces could be rallied. From there on it was the artifact helping them out lol It also shouldn't be too hard to get down if you think about it, because majority of the swarm wasn't on Char at the moment they invaded and if 5-6 battlecruisers can take on a huge force in-game imagine what they can do out of game like in the cinematic where the Hyperion flies in and rescues everyone. I'm guessing each battlecruiser could take on a good deal of zerg and so they just used a ton of bc's to carve a path through the sky and then dropped everyone in pods. But yeah what happens after they fall is a bit questionable unless the majority of the zerg forces weren't at Raynor's landing zone or something like that which they could easily have displayed in a few sentences.
I find a much larger plot hole in their choice for trying to link an awesomely fun map concept and the storyline if you chose to take down the spires haha. First majority of the fleet crashes down onto Char. Then, after you finally manage to barely set up an entrenched position, you decide to fly through the whole zerg flying swarm again and somehow set up a base on a platform getting past the fliers that are definitely around the place where they hatch them.
The number of plot holes in Char were just kind of ridiculous lol but I say it's bad execution again. They wanted to focus on Raynor and still keep it on a grand scale so we missed out on the whole operation and just saw the badly organized area that was Raynor's drop zone. It's entirely possible they dropped enough forces to hold off the swarm for a bit (and the swarm was only just recalled back to Char at that point so they weren't at their full strength)
and as for gripes about the story having similarities to Star Wars, similarities aren't necessarily bad. Star Wars was a good story, no reason why using the basic points means it's bad. People have been recycling ideas forever. And I'm out of time to write lol so I'll leave it at that
On August 06 2010 19:35 alsowikk wrote: Anyone else notice how Tychus uses a lazer and waits so Raynor can see before he shoots. It's pretty obvious Tychus wants Raynor to stop him but Tychus has to go along with the plan since the suits reactor can be overloaded if he disobeys
Sorry, but ... no. It was only for theatrical reasons.
Why should Mensk be unable to overload the reactor, when Tychus is dead? The suit is still functioning - so the "kill switch" should function as well. Maybe one can argue, that Raynor destroyed the kill switch with his shot (a bit far stretched) but then I wonder, why they couldnt disable it in the first place.
Also: Why the f*ck didnt Mensk just overload the reactor? He knew - according to the communication going on - that Tychus was with Raynor & Kerrigan. Overload and everyone dies. Why should Mensk care about Tychus' life / the deal? He sacrificed Kerrigan in SC1. Why shouldnt he sacrifice Tychus?
I finished my 2nd playthrough today. I kept Dr. Hanson as long as possible, because I did her missions really early in my 1st play and wanted to get her opinion on the other missions. So I did Safe Haven just before going to Char (after Media Blitz, Secret Mission, ...). After Media Blitz. News Show against Mensk. Hating, riots, ... UNN - Donny: "My brother was on Tarsonis. I had a brother on Tarsonis". After Safe Haven: Kate: "blablabla - Colonists find their own planets, oppose the Dominion. They really like Raynor's" - Cut - Donny: "Aehh... go to commercials." Like the damn missions before didnt happen at all....
That stupid "select a mission when you want" design just slaughtered the story and removed all consistency. Similiar to the "Hey guys, I have this protoss friend, who told me if we dont save Kerrigan we will all die" - 5secs later - "Hey Jimmy, why do we work with the Dominion? Just to kill Kerrigan?" stuff :/
They just didn't make a story worth their initial fans, those who lived and played the Starcraft and Broodwar universe. There ain't any additional detail to give, it's pretty clear for EVERYONE that lived those times. There's no place for discussion regarding this. It's almost an absolute statement.
anyone else feel like the cut-scenes and story were rushed? and did anyone else laugh at the banshees flying/bombing like jets?
I have issues with the artifact it self, if the taldarim (how ever it's spelled) had most if not all (can't remember) of the fragments why didn't they put it together and use it to wipe out zerg where ever they pleased? don't tell me they didn't know how to use it, if a few terran monkeys can figure it out, I'm sure the protoss can.
On August 08 2010 15:22 Anon06 wrote: anyone else feel like the cut-scenes and story were rushed? and did anyone else laugh at the banshees flying/bombing like jets?
What was funny about the banshees? I thought that was awesome looking.
On August 08 2010 15:22 Anon06 wrote: I have issues with the artifact it self, if the taldarim (how ever it's spelled) had most if not all (can't remember) of the fragments why didn't they put it together and use it to wipe out zerg where ever they pleased? don't tell me they didn't know how to use it, if a few terran monkeys can figure it out, I'm sure the protoss can.
Probably because they considered the fragments to be sacred relics, they wouldn't fiddle around with them to try to make something out of them
Just finished it and, meh, kinda disappointed. Didn't think the story really had great flow like the original. And I agree about Kerrigan; Char was way too easy to take.
On August 08 2010 11:57 Zocat wrote: Why should Mensk be unable to overload the reactor, when Tychus is dead? The suit is still functioning - so the "kill switch" should function as well. Maybe one can argue, that Raynor destroyed the kill switch with his shot (a bit far stretched) but then I wonder, why they couldnt disable it in the first place.
didn't the suit just shut down his organs or something
On August 08 2010 17:24 elmizzt wrote: Probably because they considered the fragments to be sacred relics, they wouldn't fiddle around with them to try to make something out of them
I find it funny that the artifact have been around for so long, and it could "cure" kerrigan like someone long time ago knew that "queen of blades" was going to exist
On August 04 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote: I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted..
StarCraft had a nice story, but Brood War's was horrible, this one was by far better. At least something meaningful happened.
On August 04 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote: I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted..
StarCraft had a nice story, but Brood War's was horrible, this one was by far better. At least something meaningful happened.
Nothing meaningful at all happened, and at least BW's wasn't full of ridiculous plot holes and terrible characters.
Also: Why the f*ck didnt Mensk just overload the reactor? He knew - according to the communication going on - that Tychus was with Raynor & Kerrigan. Overload and everyone dies. Why should Mensk care about Tychus' life / the deal? He sacrificed Kerrigan in SC1. Why shouldnt he sacrifice Tychus?
Because it wasn't a literal "bomb waiting to go off". It was a needle that could kill him on a button press.
Blizzard has some amazing programmers, artists, and animators, but boy do they not have any good writers. It wasn't until I got back to the title screen and saw the SC2 logo that I realized I wasn't playing a sonic the hedgehog fanfiction or watching a Syfy Original movie.
Blizz also needs to lay off the opera music. That stuff is fine for Warcraft which is supposed to be corny, but Starcraft is supposed to have some dignity.
On August 04 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote: I don't see why people excuse the terrible story.. yea it's a video game, but SC1 was a video game and had a fantastic story, so why should we expect less? Blizzard is throwing some perfectly awesome material to work with down the shitter :\ Bye Starcraft universe, your story was great while it lasted..
StarCraft had a nice story, but Brood War's was horrible, this one was by far better. At least something meaningful happened.
Nothing meaningful at all happened, and at least BW's wasn't full of ridiculous plot holes and terrible characters.
Are you kidding?
I don't know how you can consider the deinfestation of Kerrigan to be meaningless, it should have enormous repercussions, on the Zerg if nothing else, and with the Prophecy missions, it seems quite likely it is going to have more repercussions than that.
In contrast, nothing happens in Brood War. You could practically play only the first Protoss mission (the evacuation of Aiur) and then jump to Wings of Liberty and you'd have no problem following along, except wondering why some characters have disappeared. You know it's bad when shock deaths are used to replace character development, and there is seriously no point in killing off Fenix or Duke except to try to fake importance by killing off established characters. Aldaris' death should have had meaning, but it is instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.
The entire Protoss campaign dodges what could have been interesting development about reuniting the Khalai and Nerazim, but instead we're sent off to pick up random plot device crystals to power up the Xel'Naga Temple. Anyone complaining about the Artifact in Wings of Liberty might do well to remember that at least that furthered the plot. The Temple on Shakuras just eradicated all Zerg on the planet, when there was no real reason to have Zerg on the planet in the first place other than the need to have something to fight. Anyway, I would much rather have followed Aldaris and seen how he figured out that Raszagal was a tool of Kerrigan and mustered the Khalai against them, rather than the essentially meaningless grocery shopping we embarked on for the crystals.
It's also worth mentioning that none of those Protoss will ever impact the storyline until the very end of the game - Zerg Mission 7 - which is indicative of the importance of this story arc.
Then we get the UED. As I said above, people could play StarCraft and Wings of Liberty and would never know anything about the UED, nor know that anything was missing. An enemy without foreshadowing, without reason to be present, and without lasting impact. Utterly forgettable. And yet they are pretty much the core of Brood War, aside from the previously mentioned self-contained Protoss campaign. To put that in perspective, imagine if Wings of Liberty revolved around the Tal'darim, or if after StarCraft, the Zerg were never mentioned again and had no impact on the development of the storyline. It's that atrocious.
The UED shatters the Dominion, but 4 years later, the Dominion is back in charge of Terran space, just as it was at the end of StarCraft. They take control of the Overmind, but by the end of the expansion, the Overmind is dead again. Just as it was at the end of StarCraft. At the end of Brood War, Earth is a distant planet with no real impact in the happenings of the Koprulu Sector. Again, just as it was at the end of StarCraft.
StarCraft leaves us with Kerrigan knowing that the time of her ascension had come, so we already knew that she'd be the new force behind the Zerg. Of course, seeing her gain control of the Swarm was really promising. With a title like "Brood War" you'd expect this to be at the centre of the storyline, but it isn't. Instead, we get the completely insignificant UED. Instead of competing with interesting Zerg characters, like Daggoth or other Cerebrates or the new Overmind (I hate the entire concept of the new Overmind, incidentally. Talk about diluting the significance of characters, that lessened bothe the awesomeness of the original Overmind and the importance of Tassadar's sacrifice), she fights against these inconsequential Terrans. That's the "Brood War". There's a new Overmind, and it isn't even a speaking character! Or a character at all! The "eternal will of the Swarm" is relegated to the relative importance of a khaydarin crystal.
And Kerrigan herself is the worst thing in Brood War. In an attempt to transition her from the berserking creature of destruction she was in StarCraft into the cunning queen of the Zerg they needed, Blizzard made everyone she interacted with completely retarded. I can tolerate that Zeratul and Artanis fell in with her plans because Kerrigan already has Raszagal under her control, and people naturally fall in to the orders of their superiors. That makes Zeratul and Artanis merely look like docile, obedient followers rather than absolute idiots, but at least it's somewhat credible. Especially given that the Judicator Aldaris, the guy who is used to giving orders rather than taking them, is the only one who refuses to trust Kerrigan. Frankly, Aldaris may well be my favourite character in the expansion if only because he wasn't an idiot and looked halfway significant. He's perhaps the only Protoss character to have real character development. It pisses me off that they just killed him off for no real reason.
I can also accept Arcturus Mengsk allying with her. Sure, it is utterly retarded, but if we accept his statement of "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me", then it fits perfectly well with his stated goals. Either Kerrigan holds up her end of the deal and Mengsk rules again, or else the Swarm kills everyone, either way he gets his wish. Unfortunately, his speech in reaction to Edmund Duke's death shows that he apparently believed Kerrigan would hold up her end of the bargain. People who say Arcturus Mengsk was idiotic in Wings of Liberty should consider that at least he didn't trust Infested Kerrigan!
But what is really intolerable if that Raynor and Fenix ally with her. Why? Just why? Do you remember when Tassadar said that "death might be a blessing" if they faltered against the Zerg, or that the Swarm was an enemy who sought to "consume all sentience, all life" at the end of StarCraft? Because Fenix and Raynor apparently don't, and they were there! They're apparently "siding with the enemy they know against the one they don't"... yeah, the enemy they know will kill or infest every living thing in existence! What could the UED possibly do that's worse than that? Even if they somehow wanted to, I don't think it is even physically possible for them to be a greater threat than the Zerg. The worst they could do is use the Zerg to do what they would have done on their own. This is unacceptable idiocy.
So yeah, I have seen nothing from Wings of Liberty to make me think it is worse than Brood War. It's worse than StarCraft, certainly, but that's because StarCraft had a fairly simple plot, in which we discovered the world and the universe. It was fun and marvelous, as we thrilled in discovery. The Zerg were the great evil threat that had to be stopped at any cost. Simple and effective. Brood War had no apparent purpose to its storyline. It seemed like the goal was to make Kerrigan the dominant force in the Sector, but that was weirdly handled, with the Protoss and UED threads being pretty much entirely inconsequential, the Zerg characters being wasted and the other major characters being dumbed down for the purpose of making Kerrigan look impressive by comparison or killed off to create an illusion of significance. And then Kerrigan disappears to Char and lets everyone build up again. Wings of Liberty at least had a clear story again - the continuation of Raynor and Kerrigan's storyline. It's not as epic as the original, which may be why people were disappointed, and a lot of the early missions were filler, which disappointed me as well. However, it did what it set out to do fairly effectively, the Mar Sara, Ariel Hanson, Matt Horner and Char missions flowed well together, it was the Tychus and Tosh missions that intruded. Ironic, since the Horner and Hanson missions aren't core to the story and the Artifact fragments were, but the Artifact fragments are like the Uraj and Khalis in Brood War - they're plot devices, and of really no significance. it is made worse in that most of those missions deal with the Tal'darim, who are like the UED a completely underwhelming enemy - obviously an attempt to force some Terran versus Protoss conflict in the game, where there essentially never was before. The Ariel Hanson missions allowed us to see how Terrans had to cope with Zerg invasion, that felt very much like StarCraft, a bit like the early StarCraft missions, in fact, where the Magistrate and Raynor have to save the colonists from the threat of the Zerg and Tassadar's purifying Protoss fleet. Horner's missions are about the rebellion against Mengsk, again, a significant part of Raynor's character. It ends with a real blow - the only real blow in the campaign - being dealt to Arcturus, and is satisfying for that reason. People have mentioned Arcturus's incompetence for letting Raynor get away with all he did, but aside from Media Blitz, none of the fights against the Dominion had any real importance to Mengsk. This is illustrated by the fact that only in Media Blitz is the situation important enough for Arcturus to address you directly. The reaction may seem odd, but recall that Arcturus has been spreading lies through UNN for years, people are used to simply accepting whatever it says. Arcturus does try to claim the recording to be a fake, but people just don't believe him.
Tosh's missions are insignificant filler, and Tychus' are annoying - clearly the mission gameplay taking precedence over the story, a single mission to get the complete artifact would have been much simpler and less irritating to play through. The Moebius Factor was fine, though it had a theme more akin to that found in Hanson's missions.
I've got to say that Arcturus being behind Tychus was a mistake, however. At the very least, they should have made it difficult or impossible for them to communicate, because the fact that Arcturus was essentially spying on Raynor throughout the entire campaign makes his inability to prevent Raynor's actions pretty absurd. It's also curious why he set Tychus the task of killing Kerrigan, but on the other hand he must have suspected something - the Dominion were searching for Artifact fragments too (The Outlaws), despite Arcturus never showing any interest in this before.
So yes, in order of storylines, it goes StarCraft, Wings of Liberty, and Brood War.
On August 09 2010 05:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Are you kidding?
I don't know how you can consider the deinfestation of Kerrigan to be meaningless, it should have enormous repercussions, on the Zerg if nothing else, and with the Prophecy missions, it seems quite likely it is going to have more repercussions than that.
In contrast, nothing happens in Brood War. You could practically play only the first Protoss mission (the evacuation of Aiur) and then jump to Wings of Liberty and you'd have no problem following along, except wondering why some characters have disappeared. You know it's bad when shock deaths are used to replace character development, and there is seriously no point in killing off Fenix or Duke except to try to fake importance by killing off established characters. Aldaris' death should have had meaning, but it is instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.
The entire Protoss campaign dodges what could have been interesting development about reuniting the Khalai and Nerazim, but instead we're sent off to pick up random plot device crystals to power up the Xel'Naga Temple. Anyone complaining about the Artifact in Wings of Liberty might do well to remember that at least that furthered the plot. The Temple on Shakuras just eradicated all Zerg on the planet, when there was no real reason to have Zerg on the planet in the first place other than the need to have something to fight. Anyway, I would much rather have followed Aldaris and seen how he figured out that Raszagal was a tool of Kerrigan and mustered the Khalai against them, rather than the essentially meaningless grocery shopping we embarked on for the crystals.
It's also worth mentioning that none of those Protoss will ever impact the storyline until the very end of the game - Zerg Mission 7 - which is indicative of the importance of this story arc.
Then we get the UED. As I said above, people could play StarCraft and Wings of Liberty and would never know anything about the UED, nor know that anything was missing. An enemy without foreshadowing, without reason to be present, and without lasting impact. Utterly forgettable. And yet they are pretty much the core of Brood War, aside from the previously mentioned self-contained Protoss campaign. To put that in perspective, imagine if Wings of Liberty revolved around the Tal'darim, or if after StarCraft, the Zerg were never mentioned again and had no impact on the development of the storyline. It's that atrocious.
The UED shatters the Dominion, but 4 years later, the Dominion is back in charge of Terran space, just as it was at the end of StarCraft. They take control of the Overmind, but by the end of the expansion, the Overmind is dead again. Just as it was at the end of StarCraft. At the end of Brood War, Earth is a distant planet with no real impact in the happenings of the Koprulu Sector. Again, just as it was at the end of StarCraft.
StarCraft leaves us with Kerrigan knowing that the time of her ascension had come, so we already knew that she'd be the new force behind the Zerg. Of course, seeing her gain control of the Swarm was really promising. With a title like "Brood War" you'd expect this to be at the centre of the storyline, but it isn't. Instead, we get the completely insignificant UED. Instead of competing with interesting Zerg characters, like Daggoth or other Cerebrates or the new Overmind (I hate the entire concept of the new Overmind, incidentally. Talk about diluting the significance of characters, that lessened bothe the awesomeness of the original Overmind and the importance of Tassadar's sacrifice), she fights against these inconsequential Terrans. That's the "Brood War". There's a new Overmind, and it isn't even a speaking character! Or a character at all! The "eternal will of the Swarm" is relegated to the relative importance of a khaydarin crystal.
And Kerrigan herself is the worst thing in Brood War. In an attempt to transition her from the berserking creature of destruction she was in StarCraft into the cunning queen of the Zerg they needed, Blizzard made everyone she interacted with completely retarded. I can tolerate that Zeratul and Artanis fell in with her plans because Kerrigan already has Raszagal under her control, and people naturally fall in to the orders of their superiors. That makes Zeratul and Artanis merely look like docile, obedient followers rather than absolute idiots, but at least it's somewhat credible. Especially given that the Judicator Aldaris, the guy who is used to giving orders rather than taking them, is the only one who refuses to trust Kerrigan. Frankly, Aldaris may well be my favourite character in the expansion if only because he wasn't an idiot and looked halfway significant. He's perhaps the only Protoss character to have real character development. It pisses me off that they just killed him off for no real reason.
I can also accept Arcturus Mengsk allying with her. Sure, it is utterly retarded, but if we accept his statement of "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me", then it fits perfectly well with his stated goals. Either Kerrigan holds up her end of the deal and Mengsk rules again, or else the Swarm kills everyone, either way he gets his wish. Unfortunately, his speech in reaction to Edmund Duke's death shows that he apparently believed Kerrigan would hold up her end of the bargain. People who say Arcturus Mengsk was idiotic in Wings of Liberty should consider that at least he didn't trust Infested Kerrigan!
But what is really intolerable if that Raynor and Fenix ally with her. Why? Just why? Do you remember when Tassadar said that "death might be a blessing" if they faltered against the Zerg, or that the Swarm was an enemy who sought to "consume all sentience, all life" at the end of StarCraft? Because Fenix and Raynor apparently don't, and they were there! They're apparently "siding with the enemy they know against the one they don't"... yeah, the enemy they know will kill or infest every living thing in existence! What could the UED possibly do that's worse than that? Even if they somehow wanted to, I don't think it is even physically possible for them to be a greater threat than the Zerg. The worst they could do is use the Zerg to do what they would have done on their own. This is unacceptable idiocy.
So yeah, I have seen nothing from Wings of Liberty to make me think it is worse than Brood War. It's worse than StarCraft, certainly, but that's because StarCraft had a fairly simple plot, in which we discovered the world and the universe. It was fun and marvelous, as we thrilled in discovery. The Zerg were the great evil threat that had to be stopped at any cost. Simple and effective. Brood War had no apparent purpose to its storyline. It seemed like the goal was to make Kerrigan the dominant force in the Sector, but that was weirdly handled, with the Protoss and UED threads being pretty much entirely inconsequential, the Zerg characters being wasted and the other major characters being dumbed down for the purpose of making Kerrigan look impressive by comparison or killed off to create an illusion of significance. And then Kerrigan disappears to Char and lets everyone build up again. Wings of Liberty at least had a clear story again - the continuation of Raynor and Kerrigan's storyline. It's not as epic as the original, which may be why people were disappointed, and a lot of the early missions were filler, which disappointed me as well. However, it did what it set out to do fairly effectively, the Mar Sara, Ariel Hanson, Matt Horner and Char missions flowed well together, it was the Tychus and Tosh missions that intruded. Ironic, since the Horner and Hanson missions aren't core to the story and the Artifact fragments were, but the Artifact fragments are like the Uraj and Khalis in Brood War - they're plot devices, and of really no significance. it is made worse in that most of those missions deal with the Tal'darim, who are like the UED a completely underwhelming enemy - obviously an attempt to force some Terran versus Protoss conflict in the game, where there essentially never was before. The Ariel Hanson missions allowed us to see how Terrans had to cope with Zerg invasion, that felt very much like StarCraft, a bit like the early StarCraft missions, in fact, where the Magistrate and Raynor have to save the colonists from the threat of the Zerg and Tassadar's purifying Protoss fleet. Horner's missions are about the rebellion against Mengsk, again, a significant part of Raynor's character. It ends with a real blow - the only real blow in the campaign - being dealt to Arcturus, and is satisfying for that reason. People have mentioned Arcturus's incompetence for letting Raynor get away with all he did, but aside from Media Blitz, none of the fights against the Dominion had any real importance to Mengsk. This is illustrated by the fact that only in Media Blitz is the situation important enough for Arcturus to address you directly. The reaction may seem odd, but recall that Arcturus has been spreading lies through UNN for years, people are used to simply accepting whatever it says. Arcturus does try to claim the recording to be a fake, but people just don't believe him.
Tosh's missions are insignificant filler, and Tychus' are annoying - clearly the mission gameplay taking precedence over the story, a single mission to get the complete artifact would have been much simpler and less irritating to play through. The Moebius Factor was fine, though it had a theme more akin to that found in Hanson's missions.
I've got to say that Arcturus being behind Tychus was a mistake, however. At the very least, they should have made it difficult or impossible for them to communicate, because the fact that Arcturus was essentially spying on Raynor throughout the entire campaign makes his inability to prevent Raynor's actions pretty absurd. It's also curious why he set Tychus the task of killing Kerrigan, but on the other hand he must have suspected something - the Dominion were searching for Artifact fragments too (The Outlaws), despite Arcturus never showing any interest in this before.
So yes, in order of storylines, it goes StarCraft, Wings of Liberty, and Brood War.
I like how he supports his opinions of the insignificance of certain factions and characters in BW pretty well and how everyone who worships the BW storyline and thinks the WoL one is terrible, just puts on a moment of silence due to how well written and supported his rant was. +1
No. When a story is as terrible as WoL's, Kerrigan's de-infestation doesn't mean anything because the story is just so damn pathetic that I don't give a shit.
In contrast, nothing happens in Brood War. You could practically play only the first Protoss mission (the evacuation of Aiur) and then jump to Wings of Liberty and you'd have no problem following along, except wondering why some characters have disappeared. You know it's bad when shock deaths are used to replace character development, and there is seriously no point in killing off Fenix or Duke except to try to fake importance by killing off established characters. Aldaris' death should have had meaning, but it is instantly forgotten and never mentioned again.
If you can seriously try to tell me that the de-infestation meant something while BW's stuff didn't, you're delusional.
The entire Protoss campaign dodges what could have been interesting development about reuniting the Khalai and Nerazim, but instead we're sent off to pick up random plot device crystals to power up the Xel'Naga Temple. Anyone complaining about the Artifact in Wings of Liberty might do well to remember that at least that furthered the plot. The Temple on Shakuras just eradicated all Zerg on the planet, when there was no real reason to have Zerg on the planet in the first place other than the need to have something to fight. Anyway, I would much rather have followed Aldaris and seen how he figured out that Raszagal was a tool of Kerrigan and mustered the Khalai against them, rather than the essentially meaningless grocery shopping we embarked on for the crystals.
No one said the Xel'Naga Temple was a great story item, but it's far better in every conceivable way to the Artifact. Terrans just randomly go pick up this small item that they can bring wherever they want to roast the exact enemy they want it to and do the exact thing (de-infest) that they want it to. Furthermore, they're a bunch of fucking Humans that can do this.
It's also worth mentioning that none of those Protoss will ever impact the storyline until the very end of the game - Zerg Mission 7 - which is indicative of the importance of this story arc.
God forbid the Terrans have their own story line.
Then we get the UED. As I said above, people could play StarCraft and Wings of Liberty and would never know anything about the UED, nor know that anything was missing. An enemy without foreshadowing, without reason to be present, and without lasting impact. Utterly forgettable. And yet they are pretty much the core of Brood War, aside from the previously mentioned self-contained Protoss campaign. To put that in perspective, imagine if Wings of Liberty revolved around the Tal'darim, or if after StarCraft, the Zerg were never mentioned again and had no impact on the development of the storyline. It's that atrocious.
By your logic, any story that doesn't have a massive and everlasting repercussion for multiple games isn't any good.
StarCraft leaves us with Kerrigan knowing that the time of her ascension had come, so we already knew that she'd be the new force behind the Zerg. Of course, seeing her gain control of the Swarm was really promising. With a title like "Brood War" you'd expect this to be at the centre of the storyline, but it isn't. Instead, we get the completely insignificant UED. Instead of competing with interesting Zerg characters, like Daggoth or other Cerebrates or the new Overmind (I hate the entire concept of the new Overmind, incidentally. Talk about diluting the significance of characters, that lessened bothe the awesomeness of the original Overmind and the importance of Tassadar's sacrifice), she fights against these inconsequential Terrans. That's the "Brood War". There's a new Overmind, and it isn't even a speaking character! Or a character at all! The "eternal will of the Swarm" is relegated to the relative importance of a khaydarin crystal.
Semantics. This actually has nothing to do with the story itself. You're just complaining about what the story was focused on.
And Kerrigan herself is the worst thing in Brood War. In an attempt to transition her from the berserking creature of destruction she was in StarCraft into the cunning queen of the Zerg they needed, Blizzard made everyone she interacted with completely retarded. I can tolerate that Zeratul and Artanis fell in with her plans because Kerrigan already has Raszagal under her control, and people naturally fall in to the orders of their superiors. That makes Zeratul and Artanis merely look like docile, obedient followers rather than absolute idiots, but at least it's somewhat credible. Especially given that the Judicator Aldaris, the guy who is used to giving orders rather than taking them, is the only one who refuses to trust Kerrigan. Frankly, Aldaris may well be my favourite character in the expansion if only because he wasn't an idiot and looked halfway significant. He's perhaps the only Protoss character to have real character development. It pisses me off that they just killed him off for no real reason.
I can also accept Arcturus Mengsk allying with her. Sure, it is utterly retarded, but if we accept his statement of "I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me", then it fits perfectly well with his stated goals. Either Kerrigan holds up her end of the deal and Mengsk rules again, or else the Swarm kills everyone, either way he gets his wish. Unfortunately, his speech in reaction to Edmund Duke's death shows that he apparently believed Kerrigan would hold up her end of the bargain. People who say Arcturus Mengsk was idiotic in Wings of Liberty should consider that at least he didn't trust Infested Kerrigan!
But what is really intolerable if that Raynor and Fenix ally with her. Why? Just why? Do you remember when Tassadar said that "death might be a blessing" if they faltered against the Zerg, or that the Swarm was an enemy who sought to "consume all sentience, all life" at the end of StarCraft? Because Fenix and Raynor apparently don't, and they were there! They're apparently "siding with the enemy they know against the one they don't"... yeah, the enemy they know will kill or infest every living thing in existence! What could the UED possibly do that's worse than that? Even if they somehow wanted to, I don't think it is even physically possible for them to be a greater threat than the Zerg. The worst they could do is use the Zerg to do what they would have done on their own. This is unacceptable idiocy.
Yes, actually having a good Kerrigan character with the slightest hint of depth (WoL Kerrigan is the single worst villain that exists. There is no debate about this. Period. She's worse than Sauron) is a bad thing. Oh, and all you're doing is ignoring the fact that Kerrigan is a completely different leader when compared to the Overmind. I know, apparently the only way to have an "evil" race is to make them one-dimensional and have their goals never change or anything like that, but that's actually what happened.
Oh, and if we really want to talk about ridiculous decisions and lack of character development, lets just look at WoL. Which characters actually developed? Had any kind of depth to them? Oh, that's right, none of them. Blizzard's incredibly weak attempt at letting us see Raynor's internal struggle was executed so horribly that it doesn't count. Furthermore, if we're talking about insignificant, literally everything except the Artifact missions were 100% insignificant to the plot of WoL.
I like how he supports his opinions of the insignificance of certain factions and characters in BW pretty well and how everyone who worships the BW storyline and thinks the WoL one is terrible, just puts on a moment of silence due to how well written and supported his rant was. +1
It's well written, but it completely ignores importrant parts - WoL did everything bad that BW did, but significantly worse. Really, BW's story wasn't amazing or anything, but WoL's was complete and utter shit.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:No. When a story is as terrible as WoL's, Kerrigan's de-infestation doesn't mean anything because the story is just so damn pathetic that I don't give a shit.
I was talking objectively. Your opinion really has no value to me. The deinfestation of Kerrigan implies a complete overhaul of the Zerg structure, has far-reaching ramifications with the Prophecy, and develops the relationship between Kerrigan and Raynor. It has consequences, it displays the culmination of goals, desires and objectives that will change the world and the people that live within it. It has meaning, unlike Brood War.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:If you can seriously try to tell me that the de-infestation meant something while BW's stuff didn't, you're delusional.
It is pretty blatant, actually. If it is delusion, how come the facts back me up? Brood War had no meaning. It had no purpose - we know this because nothing was achieved, it was essentially a twenty six mission long maintaining of the status quo, barring the evacuation of Aiur. The apparent point of the expansion, to make Kerrigan the dominant force in the Sector, is undercut by the Zerg retreating to Char and doing practically nothing for four years. Wings of Liberty had a goal, and the plot developed toward that goal. Indeed, the problem with Wings of Liberty is not its lack of meaning, but the filler that interrupted the story's development. There are things in Brood War that were significant: the evacuation of Aiur, Kerrigan forcing Zeratul to murder Raszagal. The secret mission would be mostly foreshadowing, so I don't include it, same as I don't really include Piercing the Shroud or the Prophecy missions as part of Wings of Liberty's storyline.
In order for something in a story to have significance, it must develop either the characters or the world. It is through the development of these that a plot unfolds. The deinfestation of Kerrigan does (or should do) both. Brood War for the most part did not.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:No one said the Xel'Naga Temple was a great story item, but it's far better in every conceivable way to the Artifact. Terrans just randomly go pick up this small item that they can bring wherever they want to roast the exact enemy they want it to and do the exact thing (de-infest) that they want it to. Furthermore, they're a bunch of fucking Humans that can do this.
The Artifact is better than the Shakuras Temple because it has a purpose. It is a plot device, in that it is a vehicle for the progression of the plot. The Shakuras Temple was not, there was no real plot, it was just an excuse to make more missions. In fact, you actually invade Shakuras in the Zerg campaign, despite this Zerg-slaying weapon, the Temple conveniently forgotten once it was no longer needed. The Artifact is also similar to the Psi Disruptor from Brood War, a weapon that, as you say, Terrans just randomly pick up, that reaches everywhere they want, to disperse the very enemy they want, and do the exact thing they want. At least the Artifact's nova is fairly short ranged - the Psi Disruptor reached across the Koprulu Sector.
Oh, and since you bring the point up, I should be remiss if I failed to mention that Terran Medics apparently have drugs that allow them to mind control the eternal will of the Swarm. Seriously, I prefer to try to forget that.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:God forbid the Terrans have their own story line.
The problem is that it isn't a real storyline, but just pointless filler. The original StarCraft had a Terran storyline. Wings of Liberty has a Terran storyline. But the UED does not count as a storyline in any significant way. I really don't even know why the UED was brought in, they ruined what could have been a very interesting development of an actual Brood War, and most of the UED campaign is spent fighting against Mengsk, where as we know nothing is ever accomplished.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:By your logic, any story that doesn't have a massive and everlasting repercussion for multiple games isn't any good.
I like how where I claim that Brood War had no significance or repercussions, you pretend that I desire extravagance. I did not demand massive or everlasting repercussions, I demanded any form of significance. Repercussions and development are core to that. You can tell that a story is not any good if it is in the middle of a series and you can skip it without losing any important part of the overall storyline. This is the case with Brood War (also with the Orc campaign in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos) where aside from the evacuation of Aiur and some meaningless shock deaths, everything is identical before and after the game. A story in which nothing happens isn't any good.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Semantics. This actually has nothing to do with the story itself. You're just complaining about what the story was focused on.
As you wish. I was merely stating possibilities which could have given meaning to the Brood War. The UED are kinda like the Dark Voice - they come out of nowhere and are supposed to be a huge threat. But it doesn't work like that, we have to be shown the threat, you can't just drop it in and say "here, fight this, it's stronger than your previous enemy" and expect it to be a good story. Kerrigan was a great villain because we got to see her development from idealistic rebel Terran to Zerg weapon of mass destruction to cunning and cruel leader of the Zerg (however poorly that last transition was handled.) We know and respect her capabilities. The Overmind was great too, but mostly because he represented a physical manifestation of the entire Swarm, everything we've seen the Zerg do is something he has done. And the Zerg were developed slowly and steadily from the very outset of the game. Arcturus Mengsk is a good villain too, we share Raynor's sense of betrayal after working for him throughout most of the campaign, and every word of his coronation speech feels like he's taunting us. Aside from the Overmind, these villains were developed over time to eventually fill in the position of primary villain of their race in a natural time.
The UED, however, is none of these. They just appear out of nowhere, take down the Dominion, take control of the Swarm, and get destroyed. DuGalle and Stukov were okay characters, but the very engine they were riding felt like it had its significance imposed on us, not felt. The same goes with the Tal'darim in Wings of Liberty. Why should we care about them? The Dark Voice is similar, but thankfully his presence is being introduced before he actually starts taking part. There is no real reason to be interested in him in In Utter Darkness, but hopefully if he is managed well he will have some appeal by Legacy of the Void. In the meantime, he is supported by interesting underlings, Samir Duran and Ulrezaj, so even if the Voice ends up phony, at least we can enjoy his sub-villains.
Likewise, Daggoth has been developed as a character, we know who he is, have a good idea what he's capable of. As the foremost of the Overmind's Cerebrates, we know he is dangerous. We've seen him display this. That is why he would have made a better villain (or at least antagonist, Kerrigan herself is the villain) than the UED. A good story is a continuation. If flows easily from one passage to the other. Brood War does not insert itself well within the continuation of StarCraft's storyline, it lacks connections with either the past or the future, it does not develop naturally. Daggoth was the prime Cerebrate, the Overmind's right hand, that he should be the Overmind's successor is evident. That he would be Kerrigan's antagonist for control of the Swarm is a natural progression of events, a reasonable result of the Overmind's destruction on Aiur. That a fleet of humans arrives from Earth without warning and takes control of a new Overmind is not. It is forced and intrusive. And you earlier said that you wishes Terrans had their own storyline, it should be mentioned that the UED are completely separate from the Terrans that has been developed in StarCraft and would be developed in Wings of Liberty. We have no connection to them within the storyline.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Yes, actually having a good Kerrigan character with the slightest hint of depth (WoL Kerrigan is the single worst villain that exists. There is no debate about this. Period. She's worse than Sauron) is a bad thing. Oh, and all you're doing is ignoring the fact that Kerrigan is a completely different leader when compared to the Overmind. I know, apparently the only way to have an "evil" race is to make them one-dimensional and have their goals never change or anything like that, but that's actually what happened.
Again, you seem to believe your opinion has any bearing whatsoever on this situation. If you wish to say "I did not like Kerrigan in Wings of Liberty", then that's fine. Saying that she's the worst villain ever (or Sauron) only demonstrates how shallow your knowledge is. And frankly, I have no idea what kind of depth you see in her Brood War appearance. Decreasing the mental faculties of those around her is not a character trait, it is a power. Akin to saying that her ability to shoot psionic balls of energy makes her a deep character. The only real depth she shows is when she gets weary of the slaughter after being berated by Raynor, hinting that beneath the plain facet of Queen of the Zerg, there is actually a living person remaining, with desires, with feelings. And this Raynor/Kerrigan relationship is what gets furthered in Wings of Liberty (though only from Raynor's side, which is disappointing.)
Anyway, Kerrigan barely even appears in Wings of Liberty, and those appearances are mostly fine (she seemed pretty erratic when talking to Zeratul, that was weird), I have no idea what you are complaining about. You can't just say "Kerrigan bad!" Provide some support and explanation for your claims.
On August 09 2010 11:14 Stratos_speAr wrote:Oh, and if we really want to talk about ridiculous decisions and lack of character development, lets just look at WoL. Which characters actually developed? Had any kind of depth to them? Oh, that's right, none of them. Blizzard's incredibly weak attempt at letting us see Raynor's internal struggle was executed so horribly that it doesn't count. Furthermore, if we're talking about insignificant, literally everything except the Artifact missions were 100% insignificant to the plot of WoL.
StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris.
However, if we were to lower the bar to actually measure what happens, then we do get some development from Raynor in Wings of Liberty, though not so much in how it changes but how it gets revealed. Now, I'm not very good at character analysis, and would rather leave it to someone else, but this is what I see. Because he interacts with so many people, we actually get new perspectives on his character. We see how his idealism has been quashed by cynicism, and how he turns to drink to forget his hopes and ambitions which he now deems unreachable. From interaction with Matt Horner and Gabriel Tosh, we can see how he still has those values, but how he has also believes that he has been forsaken. There is a peculiar dichotomy in Raynor, in that he seems to have given up hope and justice, yet still serves as a model of those very values to those around him. Raynor has become a symbol, and he continues his revolution not for himself but for those around him. In this way, he is something of a martyr, ironically having to, as Tychus puts it, go charging in like a damned hero for a cause he doesn't believe in. That is why he falls in so readily to Valerian's plan, for the first time he has hope. In rescuing Kerrigan he means not only to save the woman he loves, but to atone for the atrocities he participated in at Tarsonis and New Gettysburg, where Mengsk not only betrayed Kerrigan, but also the noble ideals Raynor fought for. This, I would then expect, is where the cynicism came from, where Raynor realised that fighting for freedom and justice meant nothing and that his actions were only going to be used by those out for power, that only the ruthless and pitiless succeed. If he can bring Kerrigan back, then that would atone for what he did, it would mean that there are things worth hoping and fighting for, good things can happen to those who deserve them.
Tychus also has some interesting development, but most of the other characters are either new or appear too little to have substantial development.
On August 04 2010 19:17 Jyvblamo wrote: The only part of the campaign that had me going "Seriously Blizzard?" was when the Hyperion by itself managed to dock and board the flagship of the Dominion fleet while being clearly outnumbered.
Look at it this way. Prince Valerian wanted the help of Raynor since he knows he can bribe Raynor into helping with by stating that he has the resource to turn Kerrigan back. Valerian probably told the other ships to stand down while he sacrifice a couple of marines in order to get Raynor in the same room he is in.
On August 09 2010 04:14 kingcomrade wrote: Blizzard has some amazing programmers, artists, and animators, but boy do they not have any good writers. It wasn't until I got back to the title screen and saw the SC2 logo that I realized I wasn't playing a sonic the hedgehog fanfiction or watching a Syfy Original movie.
Blizz also needs to lay off the opera music. That stuff is fine for Warcraft which is supposed to be corny, but Starcraft is supposed to have some dignity.
I honestly don't know why anyone thinks blizzard is good at telling stories - I don't think I've enjoyed one of theirs since sc (and I'm only saying 'since sc' because I can't even remember if I liked sc's). wc3's was some of the most cliche tripe I've ever heard, diablo II the same, etc.
On August 09 2010 15:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote: StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris.
I agree with your posts completely, except for this. What kind of character development does Aldaris get? He's just bitching about everything at every turn. He's just there to be the voice of the common masses of the high-and-mighty Khalai opposing the alliance with the Dark Templar. He's complaining about what needs to be done at every turn. Except once, after which he betrays everyone, in a kind of weird way and timing. I never even thought of him as a character, just someone who had to be put there to represent the common opinions of the Aiur Protoss.
Rightfully, Tassadar, Zeratul and even Artanis going from a zealot-like "I-do-what-my-heroes-tell-me-to" to actually having an opinion and actions of his own get much more development.
I liked the story. Well, what good there was of it like the prophecy missions. But yeah, there are serious plot holes we can only HOPE were left that way to be dealt with in later expansions.
And there are just plain stupid shit like Valerian, clearly there as the rep for Moebius, but let's Raynor board his ship and kill all his guys. Didn't even think to send a text messege so pistols don't go flying for no reason. The Tal'Darim are never elaborated on. Maybe they got plans for their role in the story, but so far they just seem like obligatory protoss fodder for the player.
Like the stupid filler missions in which we earn money. That would have been a nice idea if they had like 40 missions in total and were aiming in portraying Raynor's revolution in detail and had you spend 15 missions collecting funds and then 10 missions doing covert ops with Tosh or some other missions in which you don't produce troops (like the secret mission) all of those mixed up with about 15 plot advancing missions. Now that would be an epic campaign, but no. What happened is that too many missions feel like filler from the story perspective, and when we take out the filler missions we get about 10 important missions, exactly how many there were per race in SC1 when all races were in the same game.
Yeah, I mentioned this in another thread. When Blizzard announced they were going to split the 3 races campaigns up, it seems they had to take 10 missions worth of plot and stretched it thin over 26 missions. So we get ~10 missions worth of plot. 16 missions worth of filler. Yeah, I get enough of that watching Naruto...
It's just Blizzard accomplished so much more in terms of plot in just SC1 or BW alone.
Im not going to say much other than that the dark voice feels just as "forced" as the UED he just has better sidekicks and while i genuinely liked both sc1 - brood war and sc2 missions.
I dont like the OHNOMOG world will end or THIS THING THAT WE ARE JUST NOW GATHERING THAT WE PREVIOUSLY DIDNT KNOW ABOUT WILL SOLVE ALL OUR PROBLEMS1111 type plots.
I just wanted to see the terran factions duke it out and blizzard seems to have a really huge problem letting these things happen. They always introduce some new super powerfull evil orcs, Scurge, burning legion, UED.
Some were done right. namely the overmind sc1 and the lich king during wc3 tft (fucking evil ballers both of them) and then they get killed or toned down by either the heroes or the introduction of these newfags that i dont really care much for. It needs to build up over time rather than be a sudden shift.
Oh well i still will play heart of the swarm and legacy of the void. Because even though the story was not what i had desired it to be its still comes with an amazing multiplayer.
On August 09 2010 15:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote: StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris.
IMO it's right that the protoss don't get any character development. After all, they are the mystic, elder and aloof race, so their characters should be already fully developed; this is done well, with distinctive characters already in place for each. They were also right to lump the development onto Raynor and Kerrigan, as they are the ones we most sympathise with.
That said, I did find the character of Raynor in WoL woefully fragmented and directionless. In SC, we get to see Raynor be an idealistic rebel, with slow, growing suspicions of mengsk which finally erupts at Tarsonis. But in WoL, he does nothing about Tychus and he seems to not be able to decide whether he is an idealistic hero or permanently inebriated - he makes grand speeches about saving lives at one moment (which I think is out of character anyway given all the stuff he's been through), and the next he's shown to be drinking himself to death in the cantina. I think the only moment when I liked Raynor in WoL was when he saw Ariel being zerged and says "oh no, not you too" then kills her with determination.
Also, can anyone explain to me the Odin mission? So...they had to steal the Odin, so they killed all the bases and the dominion didn't notice and brought it to the capital anyway? With Tychus inside? Why did they need the Odin anyway? It's not like I used it to capture the broadcast towers or anything...
On August 05 2010 14:48 Iplaythings wrote: What I miss about the BW ending, was that it left a bitter feeling in my mouth. In the sc2 campaign there are way, too, many feel good moments.
Not to mention they copy pasted a mission from the first T campaign... That killed the creativity for me that early.
I didnt mind the voice acting too much, I am good at getting used to new stuff like that. I liked the twist that Kerrigan HAD to stay alive, that's the climax for me... It killed it for me that the cinematic where Zeratul / Kerrigan fight, was the ONLY part of the "old kerrigan". They tried to pull a Kerrigan (like she infiltrated the toss during their sc bw campaign) with Tychus. And I didnt even need our favorite spectre to give me the thought that he wasn't totally clean. (Though I killed him before I got more info than "someone on your crew is a traitor" message.
So? BW had to end the way it did. Nor was it that creative. And predictable. Blizzard isn't going to kill off the zerg. They always make the story end with the bad guy winning so they have wiggle room for a sequel. It was like this in BW, it was like this for the WC3:TFT. HECK it was like that for WC2 Tides of Darkness. Go and complain about the ending of SC1 too?
On August 09 2010 15:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote: StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris.
IMO it's right that the protoss don't get any character development. After all, they are the mystic, elder and aloof race, so their characters should be already fully developed; this is done well, with distinctive characters already in place for each. They were also right to lump the development onto Raynor and Kerrigan, as they are the ones we most sympathise with.
That said, I did find the character of Raynor in WoL woefully fragmented and directionless. In SC, we get to see Raynor be an idealistic rebel, with slow, growing suspicions of mengsk which finally erupts at Tarsonis. But in WoL, he does nothing about Tychus and he seems to not be able to decide whether he is an idealistic hero or permanently inebriated - he makes grand speeches about saving lives at one moment (which I think is out of character anyway given all the stuff he's been through), and the next he's shown to be drinking himself to death in the cantina. I think the only moment when I liked Raynor in WoL was when he saw Ariel being zerged and says "oh no, not you too" then kills her with determination.
Also, can anyone explain to me the Odin mission? So...they had to steal the Odin, so they killed all the bases and the dominion didn't notice and brought it to the capital anyway? With Tychus inside? Why did they need the Odin anyway? It's not like I used it to capture the broadcast towers or anything...
It's clearly stated the word didn't get out about what happened there. After all, how can it when they annihilated the place? It's not like they Thor-jacked the Odin and ran.
The Odin was to be shipped to Korhal to be shown off to the public so they shipped it to Korhal.
And why NOT use the Odin? Might as well make use of your new toy. They knew going against the Dominion on their territory wasn't going to be easy and wanted the element of surprise. How they pulled all that off is conveniently done off screen!
On August 09 2010 19:47 Ownos wrote: It's clearly stated the word didn't get out about what happened there. After all, how can it when they annihilated the place? It's not like they Thor-jacked the Odin and ran.
The Odin was to be shipped to Korhal to be shown off to the public so they shipped it to Korhal.
And why NOT use the Odin? Might as well make use of your new toy. They knew going against the Dominion on their territory wasn't going to be easy and wanted the element of surprise. How they pulled all that off is conveniently done off screen!
...so they annihilated the place, and the Dominion doesn't think anything was wrong so they ship off the Odin to a parade anyway? Even though terrorists killed the base? And did Tychus hide inside the whole way? Shouldn't there have been a dominion pilot who was supposed to be in there?
The reason not to use the Odin is because if you didn't, then you wouldn't have had to steal it in the first place. You can just land in Korhal and start killing everything - the Odin served no purpose to spread the message about Mengsk.
On August 04 2010 19:17 Jyvblamo wrote: The only part of the campaign that had me going "Seriously Blizzard?" was when the Hyperion by itself managed to dock and board the flagship of the Dominion fleet while being clearly outnumbered.
Why? Valerian wasn't going to fire on them, he wanted to talk to them
IDK why they just didn't hail them on comms though
On August 09 2010 19:47 Ownos wrote: It's clearly stated the word didn't get out about what happened there. After all, how can it when they annihilated the place? It's not like they Thor-jacked the Odin and ran.
The Odin was to be shipped to Korhal to be shown off to the public so they shipped it to Korhal.
And why NOT use the Odin? Might as well make use of your new toy. They knew going against the Dominion on their territory wasn't going to be easy and wanted the element of surprise. How they pulled all that off is conveniently done off screen!
...so they annihilated the place, and the Dominion doesn't think anything was wrong so they ship off the Odin to a parade anyway? Even though terrorists killed the base? And did Tychus hide inside the whole way? Shouldn't there have been a dominion pilot who was supposed to be in there?
The reason not to use the Odin is because if you didn't, then you wouldn't have had to steal it in the first place. You can just land in Korhal and start killing everything - the Odin served no purpose to spread the message about Mengsk.
Raynor's Raiders shipped it there. Remember, Swann said he called in all his favors. They made sure no comms came out.
On August 09 2010 20:20 PanzerDragoon wrote: Raynor's Raiders shipped it there. Remember, Swann said he called in all his favors. They made sure no comms came out.
Ah, now I see. I thought when he said the stuff about calling in the favors it was about setting the base up. This scenario, while inplausible, at least makes some sense and isn't totally stupid.
I agree with the objections to the story, but I feel expectations may have been too high. To compare, many people seem to have liked the Matrix 1, I did at any rate, but its story sucked much harder than WoL (people used to generate energy? C'mon! Complete bullshit, and even if it wasn't, the machines could simply have used mice or cows, or simply drugged the hell out of everybody instead of going to the trouble of hooking everyone up to a matrix). Or does the behaviour of the Cylons in BS:G make any kind of sense, going to the trouble of inventing 6 models of humans and then having them be almost undetectably different yet fundamentally nonhuman and spout all kinds of mystical quasireligious crap when found out. Also, having multiple agents on board the Galactica and still not being able to take it down: wtf?
I think the writers of WoL did a reasonable job: good dialogue, the voice acting was excellent, everything sounded completely bad-ass (which was clearly one of the main goals) without becoming parody for too much of the time. I enjoyed the campaign a lot. Yes, there are inconsistencies, but that's no different from what you (unfortunately) see in pretty much any other science fiction movie/show (barring an exceedingly small number of intelligent exceptions).
About Tychus: Raynor thought he was controlled by Moebius rather than Mengsk, and Matt was very suspicious of him and in effect did keep him under surveillance. Admittedly, Raynor should have pressed him for the truth harder, and the idea that Mengsk should have sent him to Raynor is ridiculous.
About Mengsk: here I have to agree that he somehow lost his brain completely. However, I'm not too sure about the business with the Adjutant: is it fully robotic or half human? In the latter case, an Adjutant might not be so easy to fake. Also, a suppressed and frustrated population might not need completely solid proof for them to revolt.
About Kate: the newscasts were clearly intended to be humorous and were obviously not supposed to look realistic.
The story seems to be aimed at 12yo kids who still crave for their superhero movies.
Yeah, the same kids who are still so immature as to spend their time playing video games, and arguing about them on the forums, can you imagine that?
The only part of the campaign that had me going "Seriously Blizzard?" was when the Hyperion by itself managed to dock and board the flagship of the Dominion fleet...
Yeah that kind of thing was pretty bad throughout the campaign. It would've been nice if they could have told the story with fewer miracles.
Story was incredibly cliched
Yes it was, just like Star Wars (including episodes IV-VI). C'mon guys what do you expect?
I was talking objectively. Your opinion really has no value to me. The deinfestation of Kerrigan implies a complete overhaul of the Zerg structure, has far-reaching ramifications with the Prophecy, and develops the relationship between Kerrigan and Raynor. It has consequences, it displays the culmination of goals, desires and objectives that will change the world and the people that live within it. It has meaning, unlike Brood War.
But will it? We know that Kerrigan is the main character for HoS. We know that it's going to be an RPG-style development of her powers and abilities in controlling the Swarm. It doesn't really seem like a whole lot is going to change, and this makes the events of WoL all the more ridiculous.
It is pretty blatant, actually. If it is delusion, how come the facts back me up? Brood War had no meaning. It had no purpose - we know this because nothing was achieved, it was essentially a twenty six mission long maintaining of the status quo, barring the evacuation of Aiur. The apparent point of the expansion, to make Kerrigan the dominant force in the Sector, is undercut by the Zerg retreating to Char and doing practically nothing for four years. Wings of Liberty had a goal, and the plot developed toward that goal. Indeed, the problem with Wings of Liberty is not its lack of meaning, but the filler that interrupted the story's development. There are things in Brood War that were significant: the evacuation of Aiur, Kerrigan forcing Zeratul to murder Raszagal. The secret mission would be mostly foreshadowing, so I don't include it, same as I don't really include Piercing the Shroud or the Prophecy missions as part of Wings of Liberty's storyline.
It explains how the Protoss got to where they are (actually semi-re-uniting the two factions of Protoss). It also explains how Kerrigan got to where she is as the leader of the Swarm. The UED was an interesting obstacle to this. Ignoring Brood War does definitely leave some significant gaps. As for Kerrigan retreating, this gives Blizzard a big opportunity to do a whole lot of different things with the story, but they completely failed to even explain it in WoL.
In order for something in a story to have significance, it must develop either the characters or the world. It is through the development of these that a plot unfolds. The deinfestation of Kerrigan does (or should do) both. Brood War for the most part did not.
But what's going to change? Again, we know Kerrigan is the main character for HoS and that she'll be controlling the Zerg. Furthermore, even if it does have any significance, that doesn't change the fact that it was still horribly written. Significance isn't always good.
The Artifact is better than the Shakuras Temple because it has a purpose. It is a plot device, in that it is a vehicle for the progression of the plot. The Shakuras Temple was not, there was no real plot, it was just an excuse to make more missions. In fact, you actually invade Shakuras in the Zerg campaign, despite this Zerg-slaying weapon, the Temple conveniently forgotten once it was no longer needed. The Artifact is also similar to the Psi Disruptor from Brood War, a weapon that, as you say, Terrans just randomly pick up, that reaches everywhere they want, to disperse the very enemy they want, and do the exact thing they want. At least the Artifact's nova is fairly short ranged - the Psi Disruptor reached across the Koprulu Sector.
The Temple's purpose was to save the Dark Templar's homeworld. It did something incredibly generic (destroying all life on the planet) as opposed to destroying only Zerg and de-infesting one specific person. Furthermore, what are you going to do, wipe out the entire planet's life every time any Zerg at all land on Shakuras? That's not feasible. You'd have to get every Protoss and get them back into the Temple and set it off. The attack on Shakuras was a quick abduction.
Oh, and since you bring the point up, I should be remiss if I failed to mention that Terran Medics apparently have drugs that allow them to mind control the eternal will of the Swarm. Seriously, I prefer to try to forget that.
At least they were both Terran ingenuity. Terrans have always been known to be resourceful, and they did it in a Terran-esque way. They didn't have to find a super-weapon that did exactly what they've been dreaming of. They invented something to aid them, and it doesn't actually kill anything. The drugging part I have mixed feelings for. It was a rather creative way to do something, and they are biological beings, and they've also had this plan for a long time. At the same time, it is just taking over the Zerg. You'd think an Overmind would be smarter than that.
The problem is that it isn't a real storyline, but just pointless filler. The original StarCraft had a Terran storyline. Wings of Liberty has a Terran storyline. But the UED does not count as a storyline in any significant way. I really don't even know why the UED was brought in, they ruined what could have been a very interesting development of an actual Brood War, and most of the UED campaign is spent fighting against Mengsk, where as we know nothing is ever accomplished.
They were the real obstacle to Kerrigan. They were also an obstacle to Mengsk. If the UED hadn't destroyed the Dominion, then the Dominion could arguably be more powerful than Kerrigan with so much time of uninterrupted development. And again, they were an interesting obstacle in the story to Kerrigan's power. They weren't made to be this massive force with everlasting repercussions.
I like how where I claim that Brood War had no significance or repercussions, you pretend that I desire extravagance. I did not demand massive or everlasting repercussions, I demanded any form of significance. Repercussions and development are core to that. You can tell that a story is not any good if it is in the middle of a series and you can skip it without losing any important part of the overall storyline. This is the case with Brood War (also with the Orc campaign in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos) where aside from the evacuation of Aiur and some meaningless shock deaths, everything is identical before and after the game. A story in which nothing happens isn't any good.
Stuff happened in Brood War, it's just that not every single thing from it had overarching consequences. I still don't see how this is a terrible thing. I mean really, if it is, then we've got to point of the vast majority of the missions from WoL that give us the same amount (or less) than their BW counterparts.
As you wish. I was merely stating possibilities which could have given meaning to the Brood War. The UED are kinda like the Dark Voice - they come out of nowhere and are supposed to be a huge threat. But it doesn't work like that, we have to be shown the threat, you can't just drop it in and say "here, fight this, it's stronger than your previous enemy" and expect it to be a good story. Kerrigan was a great villain because we got to see her development from idealistic rebel Terran to Zerg weapon of mass destruction to cunning and cruel leader of the Zerg (however poorly that last transition was handled.) We know and respect her capabilities. The Overmind was great too, but mostly because he represented a physical manifestation of the entire Swarm, everything we've seen the Zerg do is something he has done. And the Zerg were developed slowly and steadily from the very outset of the game. Arcturus Mengsk is a good villain too, we share Raynor's sense of betrayal after working for him throughout most of the campaign, and every word of his coronation speech feels like he's taunting us. Aside from the Overmind, these villains were developed over time to eventually fill in the position of primary villain of their race in a natural time.
The UED, however, is none of these. They just appear out of nowhere, take down the Dominion, take control of the Swarm, and get destroyed. DuGalle and Stukov were okay characters, but the very engine they were riding felt like it had its significance imposed on us, not felt. The same goes with the Tal'darim in Wings of Liberty. Why should we care about them? The Dark Voice is similar, but thankfully his presence is being introduced before he actually starts taking part. There is no real reason to be interested in him in In Utter Darkness, but hopefully if he is managed well he will have some appeal by Legacy of the Void. In the meantime, he is supported by interesting underlings, Samir Duran and Ulrezaj, so even if the Voice ends up phony, at least we can enjoy his sub-villains.
Likewise, Daggoth has been developed as a character, we know who he is, have a good idea what he's capable of. As the foremost of the Overmind's Cerebrates, we know he is dangerous. We've seen him display this. That is why he would have made a better villain (or at least antagonist, Kerrigan herself is the villain) than the UED. A good story is a continuation. If flows easily from one passage to the other. Brood War does not insert itself well within the continuation of StarCraft's storyline, it lacks connections with either the past or the future, it does not develop naturally. Daggoth was the prime Cerebrate, the Overmind's right hand, that he should be the Overmind's successor is evident. That he would be Kerrigan's antagonist for control of the Swarm is a natural progression of events, a reasonable result of the Overmind's destruction on Aiur. That a fleet of humans arrives from Earth without warning and takes control of a new Overmind is not. It is forced and intrusive. And you earlier said that you wishes Terrans had their own storyline, it should be mentioned that the UED are completely separate from the Terrans that has been developed in StarCraft and would be developed in Wings of Liberty. We have no connection to them within the storyline.
The UED is different than the Dark Voice for two reasons. First, they're humans. From Earth. They aren't just some random, shapeless, Sauron-esque villain, they're Humans from the human home world that have come to take over the Terran Dominion and the sector. They actually have an interesting agenda and goal to get this done. They have character (DuGalle and Stukov) that are actually mildly interesting. Secondly, you actually play as the UED in the Terran campaign. This gets you more involved with them. You see what's going on with the UED.
Daggoth would've been an ok villain, sure, but I would much rather have the UED. It was more interesting having humans come from Earth and see them try to crack down with their own agenda. Daggoth would've just done more of the same as the Overmind. You're also confusing the UED's takeover of the Overmind with Kerrigan's control of the Swarm. The UED's control of the Overmind wasn't the natural order of succession - it was supposed to be intrusive, jarring the status quo. And I guess it's better to say "God forbid the Protoss aren't 100% involved in every story" instead of "God forbid Terrans have their own story line", since the Zerg were involved in the Terran one pretty heavily.
Again, you seem to believe your opinion has any bearing whatsoever on this situation. If you wish to say "I did not like Kerrigan in Wings of Liberty", then that's fine. Saying that she's the worst villain ever (or Sauron) only demonstrates how shallow your knowledge is. And frankly, I have no idea what kind of depth you see in her Brood War appearance. Decreasing the mental faculties of those around her is not a character trait, it is a power. Akin to saying that her ability to shoot psionic balls of energy makes her a deep character. The only real depth she shows is when she gets weary of the slaughter after being berated by Raynor, hinting that beneath the plain facet of Queen of the Zerg, there is actually a living person remaining, with desires, with feelings. And this Raynor/Kerrigan relationship is what gets furthered in Wings of Liberty (though only from Raynor's side, which is disappointing.)
Anyway, Kerrigan barely even appears in Wings of Liberty, and those appearances are mostly fine (she seemed pretty erratic when talking to Zeratul, that was weird), I have no idea what you are complaining about. You can't just say "Kerrigan bad!" Provide some support and explanation for your claims.
Kerrigan is an absolutely terrible and one-dimensional character. I don't see how this can be argued. She actually had some kind of personality in Brood War - she was smart, devious, and manipulative. She wasn't a damn Ogre romping around the sector - "ME BAD GUY! SMASH!" And this is basically all we get from her in WoL. Every line is some variation of, "You guys are stupid, I'm so powerful that you're going to die." The only variation is in the prophecy scene (and here I'll mention that prophecies are terrible story devices to begin with), where she says something similar "You/we're going to die", but she adds that she's fine with it.
What?
This completely ignores the Kerrigan from Brood War. She's changed, for no apparent reason, and has zero depth.
The same goes for Arcturus. He goes from being rather similar - he's devious, manipulative, greedy, resourceful, cold, a brilliant tactician (even when losing), and he turns into a bumbling moron that is a clone of the government of the USSR and, worse yet, the Confederacy.
StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development.
I feel like Arcturus and Artanis belong on that list, and Aldaris doesn't. What the fuck does he do? He just constantly bitches, and only looks good when his bitching is finally right (for once).
However, if we were to lower the bar to actually measure what happens, then we do get some development from Raynor in Wings of Liberty, though not so much in how it changes but how it gets revealed. Now, I'm not very good at character analysis, and would rather leave it to someone else, but this is what I see. Because he interacts with so many people, we actually get new perspectives on his character. We see how his idealism has been quashed by cynicism, and how he turns to drink to forget his hopes and ambitions which he now deems unreachable. From interaction with Matt Horner and Gabriel Tosh, we can see how he still has those values, but how he has also believes that he has been forsaken. There is a peculiar dichotomy in Raynor, in that he seems to have given up hope and justice, yet still serves as a model of those very values to those around him. Raynor has become a symbol, and he continues his revolution not for himself but for those around him. In this way, he is something of a martyr, ironically having to, as Tychus puts it, go charging in like a damned hero for a cause he doesn't believe in. That is why he falls in so readily to Valerian's plan, for the first time he has hope. In rescuing Kerrigan he means not only to save the woman he loves, but to atone for the atrocities he participated in at Tarsonis and New Gettysburg, where Mengsk not only betrayed Kerrigan, but also the noble ideals Raynor fought for. This, I would then expect, is where the cynicism came from, where Raynor realised that fighting for freedom and justice meant nothing and that his actions were only going to be used by those out for power, that only the ruthless and pitiless succeed. If he can bring Kerrigan back, then that would atone for what he did, it would mean that there are things worth hoping and fighting for, good things can happen to those who deserve them.
None of this is substantial at all for two reasons. First, everything going on in Raynor is almost immediately laid out on the table right at the very beginning. It's very obvious what we're supposed to think about his "moral struggles". It wasn't actually presented in a good way that fit with the story. More importantly, he doesn't actually struggle. All of his decisions are just, "We're doin' this, now." There's no inner conflict or anything. He doesn't have much of a problem doing any of the various missions that you can do, and as soon as Kerrigan's de-infestation is mentioned, he drops everything and goes to save his gal.
Now this is where I have to stop. What. The. Fuck? Raynor specifically said that he'll "Be the man that's going to kill you [Kerrigan] someday." But of course, lets drop that entire conflict because he has a chance to get his gal back. Great sappy, ridiculous love story, which completely destroys the potential for an interesting inner conflict where Raynor actually might kill Kerrigan for the things she's done of her own free will, like killing Fenix, Raynor's best friend.
Tychus also has some interesting development, but most of the other characters are either new or appear too little to have substantial development.
I don't see how Tychus actually developed at all. He had a lot of potential that went nowhere when he was shot in the head.
So? BW had to end the way it did. Nor was it that creative. And predictable. Blizzard isn't going to kill off the zerg. They always make the story end with the bad guy winning so they have wiggle room for a sequel. It was like this in BW, it was like this for the WC3:TFT. HECK it was like that for WC2 Tides of Darkness. Go and complain about the ending of SC1 too?
I'm pretty sure I made a list of this before.
ToD was definitely the good guy winning - The Humans destroy the Dark Portal and (seemingly) get rid of the evil Orcs. How does evil win in any way?
TFT definitely wasn't an evil ending either. Yea, the Lich King is embodied now, but basically everyone got what they want. Orcs got their own place, Humans re-settled, Blood Elves got their crack, Night Elves save the world. No one lost in TFT, so it can hardly be an evil ending.
The same principle is true in BtDP. No one lost, so it isn't really an evil ending.
Classic SC could actually be seen as a good ending, despite major losses. They finally defeated the "great evil". We only see that it ends up badly with the next game.
As for Diablo, the first one is very ambiguous. We don't actually know that the hero is corrupted until the next game, so it's neutral because of the sacrifice the hero makes. But as for the 2nd one, it's a clear-cut good wins scenario. The 3 brothers are dead. The Worldstone is destroyed, but we don't actually see any real repercussions for that (at least not for the 20 years between 2 and 3).
Well; I actually half expected kerrigan to stay infested; reason being she was so much more powerful when infested;
i mean; what can she do in human form that she coudln't while infested. I thought they had some way to get her to get her consciousness back w/o losing her powers. :S
I think Metzen's lost his touch. Andy Chambers is more of a book writer and the newest addition the mass effect 2 guy, he is just so new, he probably don't even know half the story of starcraft.
I think the story was pretty good, but it was too inconsistent, too sporadic. It wasn't a cohesive piece of awesome.
BW had it's flaws (I dont remember half the story, that shows how meaningless it was), but it was still entertaining and it had some good dramatic twists.
I liked DuGalle and Stukov characters a lot, and overall they did a good job with Kerrigan, I also think putting the UED on the center stage instead of Raynor was a good idea. The UED coming in as the extremely powerful force, and getting totally crushed by the end of the game, it shows just how Kerrigan was controlling the Galaxy and how well she could manipulate her foes. It really sets the tone for SC2, that's she's now the ultimate threat.
In WoL, although the story may be better than in BW (it's close, both storyline had majors flaws), they really scrapped the Arcturus and Kerrigan characters. If anyone thought they didnt have much depth to begin with, in WoL they're more shallow than ever. And the whole plottwist with Tychus working for Mengks doesn't make any sense for at least ten different reasons.
On August 10 2010 00:05 pyourk wrote: Well; I actually half expected kerrigan to stay infested; reason being she was so much more powerful when infested;
i mean; what can she do in human form that she coudln't while infested. I thought they had some way to get her to get her consciousness back w/o losing her powers. :S
her powers are limited by confederacy inhibitors. Also she probably still remains in control of the zerg
On August 10 2010 00:23 lepape wrote: BW had it's flaws (I dont remember half the story, that shows how meaningless it was), but it was still entertaining and it had some good dramatic twists.
I liked DuGalle and Stukov characters a lot, and overall they did a good job with Kerrigan, I also think putting the UED on the center stage instead of Raynor was a good idea. The UED coming in as the extremely powerful force, and getting totally crushed by the end of the game, it shows just how Kerrigan was controlling the Galaxy and how well she could manipulate her foes. It really sets the tone for SC2, that's she's the ultimate threat.
In WoL, although the story may be better (it's close, both storyline had majors flaws), they really scrapped the Arcturus and Kerrigan characters, if anyone thought they didnt have much depth to begin with, in WoL they're more shallow than ever. And the whole plottwist with Tychus working for Mengks doesn't make any sense. At all.
It makes perfect sense: Mengsk tells him he can go free, he just has to help neutralize Kerrigan, and also Raynor. He obviously can't do this until Raynor purifies Kerrigan, then he can take both out. But hes obviously hesitant about it because he gives Raynor so much time to act.
On August 10 2010 00:05 pyourk wrote: Well; I actually half expected kerrigan to stay infested; reason being she was so much more powerful when infested;
i mean; what can she do in human form that she coudln't while infested. I thought they had some way to get her to get her consciousness back w/o losing her powers. :S
her powers are limited by confederacy inhibitors. Also she probably still remains in control of the zerg
I toltally agree with her still being in control of the swarm. Who else are you going to play as in The Heart of the Swarm? You're going to be Kerrigan backed by Rayner fending off Dominion attacks and untrusting protoss trying to deal with the bigger threat of the hybreds.
Edit: I also imagine it will be like brood war where you'll have z v z missions where you're trying to regain control of the swarm.
On August 10 2010 00:23 lepape wrote: BW had it's flaws (I dont remember half the story, that shows how meaningless it was), but it was still entertaining and it had some good dramatic twists.
I liked DuGalle and Stukov characters a lot, and overall they did a good job with Kerrigan, I also think putting the UED on the center stage instead of Raynor was a good idea. The UED coming in as the extremely powerful force, and getting totally crushed by the end of the game, it shows just how Kerrigan was controlling the Galaxy and how well she could manipulate her foes. It really sets the tone for SC2, that's she's the ultimate threat.
In WoL, although the story may be better (it's close, both storyline had majors flaws), they really scrapped the Arcturus and Kerrigan characters, if anyone thought they didnt have much depth to begin with, in WoL they're more shallow than ever. And the whole plottwist with Tychus working for Mengks doesn't make any sense. At all.
It makes perfect sense: Mengsk tells him he can go free, he just has to help neutralize Kerrigan, and also Raynor. He obviously can't do this until Raynor purifies Kerrigan, then he can take both out. But hes obviously hesitant about it because he gives Raynor so much time to act.
Meanwhile, Tychus helped Raynor steal the Odin, devastate part of his army, broadcast the message on his own stations, why would he let him do that?
So Arcturus knew about the artifact, why didnt he get the artifact himself, and send Tychus just to kill Raynor? Also, Raynor already wanted to kill Kerrigan in the first place, the fact he was told about the artifacts and their power (by Valerian) made him want to purify her, instead of killing her.
The campaign read like a B movie to me. All the characters were really cheesy and one dimensional. Listening to Raynor's speech at the end reminded me very heavily of Bill Pullman's speech in Independence Day. I don't know if it's just been the better part of a decade since I played the SC and BW campaigns but I remember them being a lot deeper and more interesting. When I'm playing a game, watching a movie, or reading a book I need to like at least one character to really get into the story and Wings of Liberty didn't have anyone I liked.
That aside, the missions were pretty fun to play. I was just expecting more. I don't know about anyone else, but I was really pissed off when the artifact actually worked. I was expecting some grand cataclysmic failure that pointed toward the next expansion, with Kerrigan still at the head of the swarm. I still have hope that things aren't as optimistic as they seem.
On August 09 2010 23:38 PanzerDragoon wrote: Raynor knows he can't kill Kerrigan after the Zeratul missions. He's smart enough to drop his revenge and petty conflicts.
Did you even play the Toss missions or what?
Too bad this is never mentioned.
Not once.
Seriously, you go through the main part of the plot (artifacts + Char) and there's never even one mention of all these side missions. Raynor's sole motivation is to save Kerrigan because of their damn sappy love story, not because she's actually needed to help save anything.
On August 10 2010 00:23 lepape wrote: BW had it's flaws (I dont remember half the story, that shows how meaningless it was), but it was still entertaining and it had some good dramatic twists.
I liked DuGalle and Stukov characters a lot, and overall they did a good job with Kerrigan, I also think putting the UED on the center stage instead of Raynor was a good idea. The UED coming in as the extremely powerful force, and getting totally crushed by the end of the game, it shows just how Kerrigan was controlling the Galaxy and how well she could manipulate her foes. It really sets the tone for SC2, that's she's the ultimate threat.
In WoL, although the story may be better (it's close, both storyline had majors flaws), they really scrapped the Arcturus and Kerrigan characters, if anyone thought they didnt have much depth to begin with, in WoL they're more shallow than ever. And the whole plottwist with Tychus working for Mengks doesn't make any sense. At all.
It makes perfect sense: Mengsk tells him he can go free, he just has to help neutralize Kerrigan, and also Raynor. He obviously can't do this until Raynor purifies Kerrigan, then he can take both out. But hes obviously hesitant about it because he gives Raynor so much time to act.
Meanwhile, Tychus helped Raynor steal the Odin, devastate part of his army, broadcast the message on his own stations, why would he let him do that?
So Arcturus knew about the artifact, why didnt he get the artifact himself, and send Tychus just to kill Raynor? Also, Raynor already wanted to kill Kerrigan in the first place, the fact he was told about the artifacts and their power (by Valerian) made him want to purify her, instead of killing her.
Because the ends justify the means? Also we have no idea what Mengsk's motivations are yet. Hell, he could be influenced by Duran for all we know.
Dumb to make conclusions after seeing 1 part of a trilogy
On August 09 2010 23:38 PanzerDragoon wrote: Raynor knows he can't kill Kerrigan after the Zeratul missions. He's smart enough to drop his revenge and petty conflicts.
Did you even play the Toss missions or what?
Too bad this is never mentioned.
Not once.
Seriously, you go through the main part of the plot (artifacts + Char) and there's never even one mention of all these side missions. Raynor's sole motivation is to save Kerrigan because of their damn sappy love story, not because she's actually needed to help save anything.
...what
Zeratul even says it, and Raynor knows it. You are being dense on purpose just to bash the game.
On August 09 2010 23:38 PanzerDragoon wrote: Raynor knows he can't kill Kerrigan after the Zeratul missions. He's smart enough to drop his revenge and petty conflicts.
Did you even play the Toss missions or what?
Too bad this is never mentioned.
Not once.
Seriously, you go through the main part of the plot (artifacts + Char) and there's never even one mention of all these side missions. Raynor's sole motivation is to save Kerrigan because of their damn sappy love story, not because she's actually needed to help save anything.
...what
Zeratul even says it, and Raynor knows it. You are being dense on purpose just to bash the game.
You're not thinking about what I said at all. Stop, breathe, and actually digest what I'm saying.
Yes, Zeratul says all this prophecy mumbo jumbo. But when it actually comes to the decisions (when the idea of going to Char and that entire part of the story comes up), this prophecy is never mentioned once. Raynor doesn't mention to anyone, "Hey, you remember that prophecy I saw? The one that says we need to save Kerrigan or else the galaxy will be destroyed? Yea, that's why we're going."
Instead, he just says, "This is how it is, follow orders", without showing any kind of inner turmoil whatsoever, just running off to save his girlfriend.
Because the ends justify the means? Also we have no idea what Mengsk's motivations are yet. Hell, he could be influenced by Duran for all we know.
Dumb to make conclusions after seeing 1 part of a trilogy
Stop throwing out this pathetic excuse.
Being one part of a larger story DOES NOT pardon an entire stand-alone game for having a completely terrible story. If the Fellowship of the Ring was terrible, it wouldn't be excused just because it was part of a trilogy.
On August 09 2010 15:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote: StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris.
I agree with your posts completely, except for this. What kind of character development does Aldaris get? He's just bitching about everything at every turn. He's just there to be the voice of the common masses of the high-and-mighty Khalai opposing the alliance with the Dark Templar. He's complaining about what needs to be done at every turn. Except once, after which he betrays everyone, in a kind of weird way and timing. I never even thought of him as a character, just someone who had to be put there to represent the common opinions of the Aiur Protoss.
Rightfully, Tassadar, Zeratul and even Artanis going from a zealot-like "I-do-what-my-heroes-tell-me-to" to actually having an opinion and actions of his own get much more development.
Aldaris starts off as a meddling executive and superior, somewhat like Duke when you're still working for the Confederacy in the early Terran missions. He's a self-important tyrannical authority with warped priorities and more interest in the preservation of the Conclave's influence than actually saving the Protoss race. He ends up betraying you (well, technically you betray the Conclave, but as we know Tassadar was right all along) and it looks like he's going to play a role similar to Arcturus Mengsk's, right until the last mission. I really like comparing Aldaris' final speech to Arcturus', because they both reveal the character's true colours. Arcturus is a power hungry dictator ready to sacrifice anything and anyone to obtain power, but Aldaris really did want what was best for the Protoss, he was simply misguided by overzealous adherence to antiquated traditions.
I say he gets the most development because the realisation of the error of his ways actually causes significant, credible change in his personality. He broadens his perspective, is more open to discussion. He is polite with Zeratul and Razsagal and defers to their wisdom and experience as the situation calls for it.
And Aldaris doesn't betray anybody - we betray him. He discovered that Razsagal was a pawn of Infested Kerrigan, and Razsagal sends you to kill him. He was trying to reveal the truth about Razsagal, which would have prevented the treachery at the end of the Zerg campaign where Zeratul is forced to kill Razsagal, and obviously Kerrigan didn't want that, so she uses her pawn to order us to kill Aldaris. And when Aldaris is about to reveal it, she jumps in and kills him herself.
It is actually an amusing irony, because in the original campaign, it is Aldaris' prejudices against the Dark Templar which causes him to hinder the efforts of Tassadar in trying to save the Protoss from the Overmind. In the expansion, it is our prejudice against Aldaris which is used to hinder his efforts in saving the Protoss from Kerrigan.
Meanwhile, how have Tassadar, Zeratul or Artanis developed? They are identical characters at all stages of the game. Tassadar is still the same idealistic, self-sacrificing noble warrior when he rams the Gantrithor into the Overmind as he was when he argued with the Judicators over the eradication of the Terrans. Same with Zeratul and Artanis, with their respective developments. Artanis at least does not, to my knowledge, develop in the way you ascribe to him. He's always following orders, deferring to others or seeking their approval whenever he wishes to submit an idea. It's really curious that someone with so little authority was chosen to be Hierarch.
On August 09 2010 19:31 Ianuus wrote: IMO it's right that the protoss don't get any character development. After all, they are the mystic, elder and aloof race, so their characters should be already fully developed; this is done well, with distinctive characters already in place for each. They were also right to lump the development onto Raynor and Kerrigan, as they are the ones we most sympathise with.
Oh sure. Just because they don't get development doesn't mean they're not interesting. I also liked some of the Hyperion's crew even though they don't get much depth or character development. And I also somewhat agree with you about Raynor in Wings of Liberty, I really think that the mission order freedom negatively impacts character development. I didn't feel it too much, because the order that I played the missions in gave a reasonable development, but I can understand that for others it'd be unsettling.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: But will it? We know that Kerrigan is the main character for HoS. We know that it's going to be an RPG-style development of her powers and abilities in controlling the Swarm. It doesn't really seem like a whole lot is going to change, and this makes the events of WoL all the more ridiculous.
Yes, I also dread what will happen with Heart of the Swarm. Now, I don't necessarily agree that Kerrigan has to be the main character, obviously Blizzard wouldn't spoil the story and tell us that Kerrigan would no longer be leading the Swarm, but either way has some huge problems - Kerrigan remaining reduces the significance of Wings of Liberty while having nearly anybody else... well, a huge problem with the Zerg campaigns have been the lack of Zerg characters. It would not feel much like a Zerg campaign if you're still riding along with Kerrigan and Raynor and surrounded by Terrans, I'd hope for a more Zerg-centric experience. However, I cannot judge an existing story based on the merits or flaws of an as of yet unreleased sequel.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: It explains how the Protoss got to where they are (actually semi-re-uniting the two factions of Protoss). It also explains how Kerrigan got to where she is as the leader of the Swarm. The UED was an interesting obstacle to this. Ignoring Brood War does definitely leave some significant gaps. As for Kerrigan retreating, this gives Blizzard a big opportunity to do a whole lot of different things with the story, but they completely failed to even explain it in WoL.
Yes, as I said the evacuation of Aiur is the sole significant event. The reunion of the two halves of the Protoss is largely glossed over, however. As for Kerrigan, we already knew she would be leader of the Swarm. How she got there should be weighed on its merits, and the UED has none. Saying that Brood War was significant because Kerrigan fought the UED is like saying the Artifact fragment missions were significant because we fought the Tal'darim. Seriously, when you have things like the Tal'darim or the UED to compare with, I can't imagine how you can say that Kerrigan was the worst villain in the series, let alone of all time.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: But what's going to change? Again, we know Kerrigan is the main character for HoS and that she'll be controlling the Zerg. Furthermore, even if it does have any significance, that doesn't change the fact that it was still horribly written. Significance isn't always good.
True, but insignificance is bad. Brood War was horribly written and insignificant.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:The Temple's purpose was to save the Dark Templar's homeworld. It did something incredibly generic (destroying all life on the planet) as opposed to destroying only Zerg and de-infesting one specific person. Furthermore, what are you going to do, wipe out the entire planet's life every time any Zerg at all land on Shakuras? That's not feasible. You'd have to get every Protoss and get them back into the Temple and set it off. The attack on Shakuras was a quick abduction.
It didn't wipe out all life on the planet. Not only did they not fit the entire Protoss population in that Temple, but the Kakaru were also spared. It is a specifically anti-Zerg weapon. Why or how would the Xel'naga make an anti-Zerg weapon before they got slaughtered by the Overmind? Well, we are talking about a horrible plot device here.
Anyway, there was no point to the Zerg invasion of Shakuras, other than give the Temple a reason to exist, which gave the developers an excuse to fit in the whole Uraj/Khalis missions and actually create a campaign. There is no plot after the second Protoss mission, just an excuse to have more missions.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:At least they were both Terran ingenuity. Terrans have always been known to be resourceful, and they did it in a Terran-esque way. They didn't have to find a super-weapon that did exactly what they've been dreaming of. They invented something to aid them, and it doesn't actually kill anything. The drugging part I have mixed feelings for. It was a rather creative way to do something, and they are biological beings, and they've also had this plan for a long time. At the same time, it is just taking over the Zerg. You'd think an Overmind would be smarter than that.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: They were the real obstacle to Kerrigan. They were also an obstacle to Mengsk. If the UED hadn't destroyed the Dominion, then the Dominion could arguably be more powerful than Kerrigan with so much time of uninterrupted development. And again, they were an interesting obstacle in the story to Kerrigan's power. They weren't made to be this massive force with everlasting repercussions.
"Being an obstacle" gives them the relative importance of the Tal'darim. Or a locked door in an inflitration mission. As I said, a good story would have given her interesting obstacles to overcome, like Daggoth.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Stuff happened in Brood War, it's just that not every single thing from it had overarching consequences. I still don't see how this is a terrible thing. I mean really, if it is, then we've got to point of the vast majority of the missions from WoL that give us the same amount (or less) than their BW counterparts.
No. I've said it multiple times, you can skip Brood War and not miss any important development in the story except the evacuation of Aiur. That means it is an insignificant story. Filler.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: The UED is different than the Dark Voice for two reasons. First, they're humans. From Earth. They aren't just some random, shapeless, Sauron-esque villain, they're Humans from the human home world that have come to take over the Terran Dominion and the sector. They actually have an interesting agenda and goal to get this done. They have character (DuGalle and Stukov) that are actually mildly interesting. Secondly, you actually play as the UED in the Terran campaign. This gets you more involved with them. You see what's going on with the UED.
It really doesn't matter if your cardboard cutout has "human" written on it, or "protoss" or "martian" or "dark elf". It is judged on what it is. Anyway, I too liked DuGalle and Stukov, and the dynamic between the two. I wish they could have been Dominion officers or something instead of being wasted in the meaningless device that was the UED.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: Daggoth would've been an ok villain, sure, but I would much rather have the UED. It was more interesting having humans come from Earth and see them try to crack down with their own agenda. Daggoth would've just done more of the same as the Overmind. You're also confusing the UED's takeover of the Overmind with Kerrigan's control of the Swarm. The UED's control of the Overmind wasn't the natural order of succession - it was supposed to be intrusive, jarring the status quo. And I guess it's better to say "God forbid the Protoss aren't 100% involved in every story" instead of "God forbid Terrans have their own story line", since the Zerg were involved in the Terran one pretty heavily.
Your insistence that being "humans from Earth" somehow conveys meaning to the meaningless is lost on me. I take it then that if instead of having "protoss fanatics" guarding the Artifact fragments, we would have had to fight "humans from Earth" that would somehow have made the campaign better? Again, the UED does not flow into the storyline, and does not flow out. I think you put it best when you said they were an obstacle. they're not a character (in the general way that one could refer to an entire species or organisation as a "character"), they're a wall. Like the Ion Cannon was an obstacle to Raynor's escape from Tarsonis. That's the UED.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: Kerrigan is an absolutely terrible and one-dimensional character. I don't see how this can be argued. She actually had some kind of personality in Brood War - she was smart, devious, and manipulative. She wasn't a damn Ogre romping around the sector - "ME BAD GUY! SMASH!" And this is basically all we get from her in WoL. Every line is some variation of, "You guys are stupid, I'm so powerful that you're going to die." The only variation is in the prophecy scene (and here I'll mention that prophecies are terrible story devices to begin with), where she says something similar "You/we're going to die", but she adds that she's fine with it.
What?
This completely ignores the Kerrigan from Brood War. She's changed, for no apparent reason, and has zero depth.
The same goes for Arcturus. He goes from being rather similar - he's devious, manipulative, greedy, resourceful, cold, a brilliant tactician (even when losing), and he turns into a bumbling moron that is a clone of the government of the USSR and, worse yet, the Confederacy.
The Kerrigan you describe is the one from StarCraft, not Wings of Liberty. As I said, we barely see her in the game, and when we do we're fighting her. When you've got the entire Zerg Swarm and the enemy has one Battlecruiser, why exactly would you try to be deceitful? She has nothing to gain from it? You're basically accusing her of not being an idiot. Besides, being manipulative and deceitful does not constitute character depth, any more than beating people with a stick does. Both are means to an end. Character depth implies personality, hopes, fears, desires, goals, ambitions. Manipulation is just a chosen weapon. That is why I said that Kerrigan's only demonstration of character depth was when she felt wearied of the slaughter - it demonstrates a conflict of desires, that she can feel guilt and sorrow. When she responds to Raynor after Fenix gets killed, she sounds positively ruffled. So yes, she does have more depth in Brood War, but not for the reason you mentioned. I guess you could say a similar thing when Kerrigan last speaks in the All In mission, revealing a fragment of her longing to be free from the shackles of her Zerg form.
I have no idea why you think Arcturus is a bumbling moron in Wings of Liberty, however.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:I feel like Arcturus and Artanis belong on that list, and Aldaris doesn't. What the fuck does he do? He just constantly bitches, and only looks good when his bitching is finally right (for once).
I've answered this to someone else, but Aldaris belongs here because his character develops. He learns from his experiences and changes his perspective accordingly. Why do you think Arcturus or Artanis belongs on that list? Arcturus might be character development, if you think that he was honest at the beginning when he said he wanted to help people, but I think he was manipulating us all along, which means his character isn't developed, it is revealed. Artanis never does much, and is the least interesting Protoss character, in my opinion.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:None of this is substantial at all for two reasons. First, everything going on in Raynor is almost immediately laid out on the table right at the very beginning. It's very obvious what we're supposed to think about his "moral struggles". It wasn't actually presented in a good way that fit with the story. More importantly, he doesn't actually struggle. All of his decisions are just, "We're doin' this, now." There's no inner conflict or anything. He doesn't have much of a problem doing any of the various missions that you can do, and as soon as Kerrigan's de-infestation is mentioned, he drops everything and goes to save his gal.
I said nothing about struggles or inner conflict, I have no idea what you are responding to.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Now this is where I have to stop. What. The. Fuck? Raynor specifically said that he'll "Be the man that's going to kill you [Kerrigan] someday." But of course, lets drop that entire conflict because he has a chance to get his gal back. Great sappy, ridiculous love story, which completely destroys the potential for an interesting inner conflict where Raynor actually might kill Kerrigan for the things she's done of her own free will, like killing Fenix, Raynor's best friend.
Kerrigan's free will... well, that's an entirely different can of worms.
Anyway, Raynor said he'd kill her in a fit of rage after one of his good friends was murdered by her. Things said under the effects of heavy emotion are not always things you can believe in once your mind clears. I really see nothing surprising about this, I never believed for a second that he would hesitate once offered a chance to save her, it would go against everything we know of his character.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:I don't see how Tychus actually developed at all. He had a lot of potential that went nowhere when he was shot in the head.
No? Well, maybe it's just me, reading too much into things. If you want inner struggle, look to Tychus, not Raynor. As I said, I have no idea where you see inner conflict in Raynor, I certainly didn't. But Tychus, you can feel that he doesn't want to do what he has to. And his relation with Raynor is a lot more complex than I would have expected, between the resentment for being locked up while Raynor went free, and genuine liking for his friend. Raynor has grown since then, but Tychus often still sounds like a careless adventurer. He develops from simply working on deals for his own benefit to enjoying Raynor's crusade for Truth and Justice to fighting himself to prevent Raynor from suffering. People have said that Tychus wanted Raynor to shoot him in the final cinematic, and though I can't be sure of that, what is certain is that before that, Tychus kept trying to stop Raynor from going to Char to save Kerrigan. Because he knew that then he would have to make a choice, either kill Kerrigan and break Raynor, or else die. Now that's obvious, but what some people forget to consider is that as long as he didn't kill Kerrigan, he couldn't be free from his suit. So I don't know if he was willing to give his life for Raynor's hopes, but he was certainly willing to give his freedom. Again. At the beginning of the campaign, did it look like Tychus would be willing to do that? I contend that it did not.
Yes, as I said the evacuation of Aiur is the sole significant event. The reunion of the two halves of the Protoss is largely glossed over, however. As for Kerrigan, we already knew she would be leader of the Swarm. How she got there should be weighed on its merits, and the UED has none. Saying that Brood War was significant because Kerrigan fought the UED is like saying the Artifact fragment missions were significant because we fought the Tal'darim. Seriously, when you have things like the Tal'darim or the UED to compare with, I can't imagine how you can say that Kerrigan was the worst villain in the series, let alone of all time.
Kerrigan wasn't the worst villain in the series. She was fine in BW, but terrible in WoL.
That said, you seem to be putting too much emphasis on the UED. Some things are just that - obstacles. It's fine for the Tal'darim to have merit for just being an obstacle to Raynor. It's fine for the UED to have some merit for just being Kerrigan's enemy. The problem with the Tal'darim is we don't know their goals, their motives, their agenda. We don't know any of that, while we know the UED's. The UED is much more fleshed out than the Tal'darim is.
True, but insignificance is bad. Brood War was horribly written and insignificant.
Again, is WoL any more significant that BW?
It didn't wipe out all life on the planet. Not only did they not fit the entire Protoss population in that Temple, but the Kakaru were also spared. It is a specifically anti-Zerg weapon. Why or how would the Xel'naga make an anti-Zerg weapon before they got slaughtered by the Overmind? Well, we are talking about a horrible plot device here.
From everything I've read, they did get all of the Protoss either off-planet or into Temple, thus it would just wipe out all life on the planet. And I don't think the survival of a map tileset critter counts as too much evidence, not even bringing up the possibility of the Protoss taking care of/breeding animals for the wild in ways that humans can even do today.
Anyway, there was no point to the Zerg invasion of Shakuras, other than give the Temple a reason to exist, which gave the developers an excuse to fit in the whole Uraj/Khalis missions and actually create a campaign. There is no plot after the second Protoss mission, just an excuse to have more missions.
This is just speculation of the point after the fact. Furthermore, like I've been saying, why is this special to point out? WoL did the same thing, except (arguably) worse.
"Being an obstacle" gives them the relative importance of the Tal'darim. Or a locked door in an inflitration mission. As I said, a good story would have given her interesting obstacles to overcome, like Daggoth.
I explained how the UED is a better antagonist than Daggoth. What would Daggoth do? Oh, right, the exact same thing that the Overmind was. Not much of an evolving story.
No. I've said it multiple times, you can skip Brood War and not miss any important development in the story except the evacuation of Aiur. That means it is an insignificant story. Filler.
Again, how is this special or notable to point out when WoL is 2/3rds filler?
It really doesn't matter if your cardboard cutout has "human" written on it, or "protoss" or "martian" or "dark elf". It is judged on what it is. Anyway, I too liked DuGalle and Stukov, and the dynamic between the two. I wish they could have been Dominion officers or something instead of being wasted in the meaningless device that was the UED.
Your insistence that being "humans from Earth" somehow conveys meaning to the meaningless is lost on me. I take it then that if instead of having "protoss fanatics" guarding the Artifact fragments, we would have had to fight "humans from Earth" that would somehow have made the campaign better? Again, the UED does not flow into the storyline, and does not flow out. I think you put it best when you said they were an obstacle. they're not a character (in the general way that one could refer to an entire species or organisation as a "character"), they're a wall. Like the Ion Cannon was an obstacle to Raynor's escape from Tarsonis. That's the UED.
The entire point is that the villain is more fleshed out. There's actual depth and meat to the character(s) on the bad side, compared to Kerrigan (WoL) or the Dark Voice or Sauron. None of these last three have any depth to them whatsoever. No real motives. No agenda. No personality traits even. Just bland, bad guy lines.
The Kerrigan you describe is the one from StarCraft, not Wings of Liberty. As I said, we barely see her in the game, and when we do we're fighting her. When you've got the entire Zerg Swarm and the enemy has one Battlecruiser, why exactly would you try to be deceitful? She has nothing to gain from it? You're basically accusing her of not being an idiot. Besides, being manipulative and deceitful does not constitute character depth, any more than beating people with a stick does. Both are means to an end. Character depth implies personality, hopes, fears, desires, goals, ambitions. Manipulation is just a chosen weapon. That is why I said that Kerrigan's only demonstration of character depth was when she felt wearied of the slaughter - it demonstrates a conflict of desires, that she can feel guilt and sorrow. When she responds to Raynor after Fenix gets killed, she sounds positively ruffled. So yes, she does have more depth in Brood War, but not for the reason you mentioned. I guess you could say a similar thing when Kerrigan last speaks in the All In mission, revealing a fragment of her longing to be free from the shackles of her Zerg form.
I have no idea why you think Arcturus is a bumbling moron in Wings of Liberty, however.
That's my point. You set up this promising character and then blow it with WoL. Even if she does have few lines, her script/delivery of these lines was absolutely terrible and only enforced the idea of a one-dimensional character. And yes, the manipulation and deceit is part of character depth because it reveals personality traits. That's what she likes to do. Manipulation and all of that is much more interesting than, "ME EVIL. ME SMASH."
Arcturus is a bumbling moron because he does nothing right. He's lagging behind Raynor's Raiders and getting bested the entire time while being portrayed as a leader of a clone of Communist Russia/Eastern Germany after fighting against exactly the same thing.
I said nothing about struggles or inner conflict, I have no idea what you are responding to.
Kerrigan's free will... well, that's an entirely different can of worms.
Anyway, Raynor said he'd kill her in a fit of rage after one of his good friends was murdered by her. Things said under the effects of heavy emotion are not always things you can believe in once your mind clears. I really see nothing surprising about this, I never believed for a second that he would hesitate once offered a chance to save her, it would go against everything we know of his character.
You don't just say an offhand comment that was merely a fit of rage when the entire game stops and focuses solely on Raynor's speech. There was entirely too much emphasis on those words and the idea of the betrayal to just shrug it off. Furthermore, that and everything else I mentioned (inner struggles and all that) is potential that was completely wasted. It could've made for a far more interesting character and it was almost ignored entirely. And no, killing her wouldn't go directly against his character at all. She manipulated and betrayed him, killing his best friend, after he was betrayed by Mengsk and lost her. His sense of moral duty should actually drive him to kill the most dangerous being in the galaxy, if anything.
But it doesn´t and that is the point in WoL. Raynor has sworn to kill the Queen of Blades but the conflict is that he still likes Kerrigan. He still has her Photo, and once shown hope that she can be saved he drops everything to do that (unless the Player then switches to the "Horner" missions...)
On August 10 2010 06:02 Unentschieden wrote: But it doesn´t and that is the point in WoL. Raynor has sworn to kill the Queen of Blades but the conflict is that he still likes Kerrigan. He still has her Photo, and once shown hope that she can be saved he drops everything to do that (unless the Player then switches to the "Horner" missions...)
Exactly - it's bad writing. He drops the entire idea of revenge against the woman he once loved but has now done horrible things to his life. Instead, he's just all about saving her, and we don't even get to see that shift. We don't see why he made that shift. There's nothing. It's just like he forgot that the events in BW happened.
Imo, blizzard made a mistake making the missions non-linear. It basically forced the dialogue and story to become shallow, to not give away any emotions caused by missions not completed yet. A friend of mine actually never did the protoss side-missions which should have made some kind of impact on Raynor's behavior, but he never noticed, and those are probably the most important plot-advancements for the sequels.
All that being said, I had fun with the single player anyway. Only the story was lacking for me, and blizz can fix this by making the campaign more similar to SC1 (though this likely won't happen)
On August 10 2010 06:02 Unentschieden wrote: But it doesn´t and that is the point in WoL. Raynor has sworn to kill the Queen of Blades but the conflict is that he still likes Kerrigan. He still has her Photo, and once shown hope that she can be saved he drops everything to do that (unless the Player then switches to the "Horner" missions...)
Exactly - it's bad writing. He drops the entire idea of revenge against the woman he once loved but has now done horrible things to his life. Instead, he's just all about saving her, and we don't even get to see that shift. We don't see why he made that shift. There's nothing. It's just like he forgot that the events in BW happened.
Not exactly. Raynor was motivated to save Kerrigan ALL the time, in SC he returns to the plot after the Terran campaign after recieving Kerrigans call for help. It´s one of the few plotrelevant midcampaign prerendered scenes in SC. After she makes it clear that she is now Zerg, Raynor eventually ends up helping Tassadar to take down the Overmind. It´s what makes her eventual betrayal by killing Fenix (no one cares about Duke ;_;) so devistating for him. Until the end of BW he does everything he can to save her but everything fails. After she disappears all he has left is the Rebellion/Revenge against Mengsk. Especially the latter becomes clear in the Post Tosh cutscene and the discussion with Horner after the Moebius Factor (Thats where the Tarsonis Flashback is).
What kills the writing is that you can jump into the rebellion subplot at any time during the Artifacts plotline. The narrative discrepancys are jarring if you don´t finish Media Blitz before Moebius Factor.
On August 09 2010 19:47 Ownos wrote: It's clearly stated the word didn't get out about what happened there. After all, how can it when they annihilated the place? It's not like they Thor-jacked the Odin and ran.
The Odin was to be shipped to Korhal to be shown off to the public so they shipped it to Korhal.
And why NOT use the Odin? Might as well make use of your new toy. They knew going against the Dominion on their territory wasn't going to be easy and wanted the element of surprise. How they pulled all that off is conveniently done off screen!
...so they annihilated the place, and the Dominion doesn't think anything was wrong so they ship off the Odin to a parade anyway? Even though terrorists killed the base? And did Tychus hide inside the whole way? Shouldn't there have been a dominion pilot who was supposed to be in there?
The reason not to use the Odin is because if you didn't, then you wouldn't have had to steal it in the first place. You can just land in Korhal and start killing everything - the Odin served no purpose to spread the message about Mengsk.
Put it this way, if you expect your UPS package to come to your house in let's say 3 days, you expect it in three days.Your package is intercepted and the UPS center blown up somehow. You probably don't know the center was blown up. The guy changed the contents of your package from SC2 to... I dunno, a bomb. And yes the Odin was necessary in getting the message broadcasted because they expected heavy opposition. Yes, I know it doesn't do the broadcasting directly. But it says right there in the campaign why they needed it. For some reason the characters believed they needed Odin and surprise advantage. It IS the Dominion capital after all.
So? BW had to end the way it did. Nor was it that creative. And predictable. Blizzard isn't going to kill off the zerg. They always make the story end with the bad guy winning so they have wiggle room for a sequel. It was like this in BW, it was like this for the WC3:TFT. HECK it was like that for WC2 Tides of Darkness. Go and complain about the ending of SC1 too?
I'm pretty sure I made a list of this before.
ToD was definitely the good guy winning - The Humans destroy the Dark Portal and (seemingly) get rid of the evil Orcs. How does evil win in any way?
TFT definitely wasn't an evil ending either. Yea, the Lich King is embodied now, but basically everyone got what they want. Orcs got their own place, Humans re-settled, Blood Elves got their crack, Night Elves save the world. No one lost in TFT, so it can hardly be an evil ending.
The same principle is true in BtDP. No one lost, so it isn't really an evil ending.
Classic SC could actually be seen as a good ending, despite major losses. They finally defeated the "great evil". We only see that it ends up badly with the next game.
As for Diablo, the first one is very ambiguous. We don't actually know that the hero is corrupted until the next game, so it's neutral because of the sacrifice the hero makes. But as for the 2nd one, it's a clear-cut good wins scenario. The 3 brothers are dead. The Worldstone is destroyed, but we don't actually see any real repercussions for that (at least not for the 20 years between 2 and 3).
Dude... you are just picking things out conveniently to suite your argument. I could just as easily say the same thing about BW. Sure, Kerrigan wins and the UED is wiped out. But the Dominion and protoss happily retreat. Just another lost battle. They aren't severly broken. The protoss still "got what they want" their new homeworld, Mengks gets to abuse his powers still. ToD was not the good guys winning. How is being stuck on an planet being torn apart and the bad guys fleeing through a portal "good guys winning"? At the time all you know was they were screwed. BW is not special.
Ok, this might be sorta long also, but i think it might be worth it:
First of all, i agree with like 90% of waht you say is wrogn but for otally diffrent reasons:
Mengks or however that guy name really is: In sc1 BW, Raynor "Brings" him to kerrigan cus she needs his psi emiters, after that she takes his forces out, he pulls some old favours and gets a new army to try to kill her (omega mission, last mission for zerg in sc:bw), but u crush him again... Now how the hell is he emperor of the dominion again? Kinda lost the part where He became so powerfull and raynor lost all control over him.
Raynor: first, if he is to carry a picture of someone it should be Fenix... or Tassadar... Then again, he dosent even look anything like the original raynor :D. Raynor was always a smart guy, and a saviour of ppl, so going to char instead of (Again?) getting rid of mengsk is sorta understandable. Saving kerrigan? why not?... After all normal ways to deal with her always failed :D.
Tygus: Well, he is a meathead, works for moebius or mengsk, no diffrence: if kerrigan really is as baddass as in sc1 (taking down dominion UED and Protoss togheter!!) then better safe than sorry id say. Raynor trusts him? Maybe... that was sorta confusing.
Price charming guy: Mengsk had a son so stupid (by the way he talks in some cinematics) and gave him control over half of his fleet? Big lol here. After that, second idea: u wanna take down your father, dude shot him and blame someone you dont like, you avoid raynor like 16 misions.
Swan/Matt horner/And other non important characters: If they were his original crew (killing the overmind, etc; why are they so cranky about raynor working for the dominion....
Nova/tosh: great add on, but would be much better if it was possible to see them in nxt campaigns.
And now the real important deal: You (meaning the character you are suppoesed to be in SC2):
in sc1 u were a commander for the terran, a cerebrate for the zerg and a executor for the protoss. Now my first idea after i saw the hybrids return in sc2 (since they do come in sc1) was... Maybe the player is actually working for the hybrids all along, especially after the sc1 secret mission. That sorta got me thinking... Where is duran? Duran in sc1, underrates kerrigan as if she was just a tool he used. Eitehr is is some real baddass, or he is just bluffing. If all this hybrid crap is so important, why nobody talks about it? Raynor is so drunk he cant say "btw the universe is gonna end, be better do something about that"?
The ending of the campaign is kinda melodramatic, but its ok i guess. My biggest complain that kinda got me petrified is right about b4 you finish the last mission kerrigan appears in her human form (AKA nova with red hair), and suddenly she is naked (not complainig about that thou ;D) but her hair is still looking like zerg? So Raynor did all this and is getting some mutated chick? I just hope to god "theplayer" aint raynor, i think i got better taste for women ;D.
P.S: About excusing the story or not: SC1 was made in a time where a lot fewer games came out and everything was carefully treated (think of games like Deus EX 1, Baldus Gate 1, and im sure u can think of many others). Today games are made to make money, and im guessing many of u bought it :D. There are very few games made nowdays that have an original story and are still great over all (Last game i can think of that had a good ending was Dead Space). Oh, and sry for gramatical mistakes ;D.
On August 10 2010 07:33 Coca Cola Classic wrote: mengsk actually attributes the adjutant recording to being fake in the story...
Yes but the thing is that after Kate plays that really horrible bit for him he should have remained calm and said "So, what? It's fake." Not gone all pissed off, that lends the recording credibility.
On August 04 2010 11:56 nemanja1503 wrote: Like the stupid filler missions in which we earn money. That would have been a nice idea if they had like 40 missions in total and were aiming in portraying Raynor's revolution in detail and had you spend 15 missions collecting funds and then 10 missions doing covert ops with Tosh or some other missions in which you don't produce troops (like the secret mission) all of those mixed up with about 15 plot advancing missions. Now that would be an epic campaign, but no. What happened is that too many missions feel like filler from the story perspective, and when we take out the filler missions we get about 10 important missions, exactly how many there were per race in SC1 when all races were in the same game.
This is by far your most valid point and I felt the same way times 10. It felt much much shorter then the original, despite being more expensive than most games. In fact for a campaign marketed as the most epic thing in history, it was VERY lacking, in fact it felt MUCH less epic that many of the games I played in recent past that were 10-20 bucks cheaper.
However, for the rest of your post I think you are being too harsh. I would guess most people here are in the 18-35 demographic which means most of us played SC1 when we were teens/preteens, back when we were young and impressionable, and didn't know what a good story really looked liked.
What we forget is that SC/BW's story wasn't really that great, it was also full of holes and lacked character motivation; its time line seems unrealistic (all those events of SC + BW taking less than a year?), and it lacked for sight; many of the holes I found in SC2 were the result of SC's story being made up as they went along. The fact is that most game's stories suck. The only ones that are decent are the adventure games, of which their whole selling point is the story, and the game is built from the ground up around that fact.
At its core SC will always be a competitive online game. The story will always be the second or even third priority (I would say game mechanics 1, balance 2). By that standard SC had an amazing story. I can't think of many other games built from the ground up for online competition who's single player was on par with SC. True, there are many games that far surpass SC's single player by leaps and bounds but they are supposed to, since most of them don't even have a multi-player option, and is focused on story telling.
If you ever play a game like The Longest Journey or Deus Ex or one of the classic Sierra/Lucas game, or my personal favorite Vampire Bloodlines; you will know what the height of gaming storytelling can be. SC2 doesn't reach those heights, but to pretend SC1 did is to fall in the trap of nostalgic revisionist memory. What SC2 offers is a squeal and update to the greatest pro league game of all time. It is by that standard that you can criticize its single player.
This however leads to an underling question as to weather or not the expansions should be purchased if there main focus is on the campaign and not multi-player. My answer is that if money is tight, which for most of us it is, than by judging from the quality of WoL, I would say no. There is just no way to justify buying a game's campaign in three $60+ installments unless it is out of this world incredibly epic. SC2 isn't even remotely close to that qualification. I see no reason why all three campaigns weren't including considering the price tag. If that's the best Blizzard can do with a reported $100 million dollar budget and SEVEN years of development than there needs everyone associated with the project needs to be fired.
Actually, totally agree!
P.S: I think BLizzard made an incredible story with this game. Reason? Seems everyone is able to see in it what they want to see, some hate it some love it, but there are sure a lot op ppl giveing opinions :D.
On August 07 2010 03:23 Blaec wrote: The campaign story was lame. But i enjoyed playing, and the Kerrigan betrayed cinematic was absolutely awesome.
And its not like BW didnt have convenient illogical and lame parts to its campaign.
Now I just want to know how they are going to have characters in the Zerg third of the campaign? Are we going to play a Hydralisk, pulling together his ragtag gang of zerg to bring Kerrigan back?
No, you'll probably play Kerrigan. She'll happily agree to join Raynor & Co. and add the Zerg to his forces (I think the Zergy hair left over is an indicator that she's not completely cured and can still control the Zerg - otherwise what was the point of the prophecy? If she can't control them anymore, then Raynor just fucked everyone in the butt), so she will have to rebuild her power...again...by zipping around the galaxy picking up Zerg strains and evolutions.
Then, on Mission 21, she'll probably go AWOL, when Mengsk makes himself vulnerable somehow, and go kick his ass.
Sound familiar?
Raynor just fucked everyone in the butt, u made my day man, and im guessing zeratul is like "all this mystic talk and u still screw up?!" :D
So? BW had to end the way it did. Nor was it that creative. And predictable. Blizzard isn't going to kill off the zerg. They always make the story end with the bad guy winning so they have wiggle room for a sequel. It was like this in BW, it was like this for the WC3:TFT. HECK it was like that for WC2 Tides of Darkness. Go and complain about the ending of SC1 too?
I'm pretty sure I made a list of this before.
ToD was definitely the good guy winning - The Humans destroy the Dark Portal and (seemingly) get rid of the evil Orcs. How does evil win in any way?
TFT definitely wasn't an evil ending either. Yea, the Lich King is embodied now, but basically everyone got what they want. Orcs got their own place, Humans re-settled, Blood Elves got their crack, Night Elves save the world. No one lost in TFT, so it can hardly be an evil ending.
The same principle is true in BtDP. No one lost, so it isn't really an evil ending.
Classic SC could actually be seen as a good ending, despite major losses. They finally defeated the "great evil". We only see that it ends up badly with the next game.
As for Diablo, the first one is very ambiguous. We don't actually know that the hero is corrupted until the next game, so it's neutral because of the sacrifice the hero makes. But as for the 2nd one, it's a clear-cut good wins scenario. The 3 brothers are dead. The Worldstone is destroyed, but we don't actually see any real repercussions for that (at least not for the 20 years between 2 and 3).
Dude... you are just picking things out conveniently to suite your argument. I could just as easily say the same thing about BW. Sure, Kerrigan wins and the UED is wiped out. But the Dominion and protoss happily retreat. Just another lost battle. They aren't severly broken. The protoss still "got what they want" their new homeworld, Mengks gets to abuse his powers still. ToD was not the good guys winning. How is being stuck on an planet being torn apart and the bad guys fleeing through a portal "good guys winning"? At the time all you know was they were screwed. BW is not special.
Tides of Darkness is not the same as Beyond the Dark Portal. You're confusing the two.
As to your example, there's a difference between TFT (where the Undead didn't dominate and beat down all of the good factions, only another bad one, and where the new Lich King doesn't just open up an era of total dominance of a sector) and BW (where Kerrigan beats down everyone else, including the good guys, and seals her complete dominance of the sector with this).
I should say that I'm confused that people claim they want more character depth, but also complain that characters don't act like, cold, calculating, emotionless robots. Realistic characters act in irrational ways, because they are overtaken by emotion. Obviously, Mengsk should have reacted to the tape dismissively, refused to give it any importance, but Arcturus Mengsk is a human being too. He knows that the tape is real, he knows that he was caught, he knows that he was outplayed by Raynor, he knows that the tool he's been using to further his own goals for years has been turned against him. He knows he's the most powerful force in Terran space and there's nothing he can do to stop this. All that pisses him off. We already know that Arcturus has a temper, recall back to the last Terran mission in StarCraft, where he actually says that quote? After Raynor tells him to piss off? Did he sound like a cold, calculating emotionless robot then? Is there any real reason he should give that whole spiel at all? There isn't, but he does anyway, because he's angry. There he is, in the very splendour of triumph, standing upon the ruins of his long time enemy, and this insignificant subordinate dares to defy him? So yes, Mengsk didn't act in an optimal way, and that's what makes him an interesting character. Because he has motivations, emotions, desires, an ego. And someone isn't a bumbling moron just because he gets pissed when you kick him in the balls.
Anyway.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:Kerrigan wasn't the worst villain in the series. She was fine in BW, but terrible in WoL.
That said, you seem to be putting too much emphasis on the UED. Some things are just that - obstacles. It's fine for the Tal'darim to have merit for just being an obstacle to Raynor. It's fine for the UED to have some merit for just being Kerrigan's enemy. The problem with the Tal'darim is we don't know their goals, their motives, their agenda. We don't know any of that, while we know the UED's. The UED is much more fleshed out than the Tal'darim is.
Of course I put a lot of emphasis on them, they're the centre of the storyline. It's a problem when the entire expansion revolves around insignificant obstacles, and it's a problem when they replace what could have been a significant villain. Not every mission needs a significant villain, but the overall story needs a good antagonist, or else there's no real reason to feel like there's anything to be achieved.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:Again, is WoL any more significant that BW?
Again, yes.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:From everything I've read, they did get all of the Protoss either off-planet or into Temple, thus it would just wipe out all life on the planet. And I don't think the survival of a map tileset critter counts as too much evidence, not even bringing up the possibility of the Protoss taking care of/breeding animals for the wild in ways that humans can even do today.
What have you read? The campaign specifically mentions the eradication of all Zerg, The Story So Far mentions eradication of the Zerg, the wiki says it was an anti-Zerg weapon, nothing I've ever read suggests Protoss were evacuated from the planet, and the Temple is too small to house the entire Protoss population of Shakuras. I'm going to demand that you provide some backup for this claim.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:This is just speculation of the point after the fact. Furthermore, like I've been saying, why is this special to point out? WoL did the same thing, except (arguably) worse.
It's not speculation, there never was a point. The complete lack of any purpose to the invasion of Shakuras is self-evident. Wings of Liberty did have a purpose. The story between Raynor and Kerrigan is one of the core developments of the entire StarCraft storyline, and even without that, removing the leader of the Zerg Swarm is inherently significant - as well say that Tassadar's sacrifice was worse than pointless.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:I explained how the UED is a better antagonist than Daggoth. What would Daggoth do? Oh, right, the exact same thing that the Overmind was. Not much of an evolving story.
You're venturing into the purely hypothetical. How do you know what Daggoth would have done? It most certainly isn't the same thing that the Overmind would have done, as the Overmind controls every Zerg, including Kerrigan. We have no idea what he would have done, because he never could have been in such a situation. Furthermore, Daggoth was a developed character that proceeded naturally into the conflict, which is already a far cry better than the UED.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote: Again, how is this special or notable to point out when WoL is 2/3rds filler?
Even if I were to accept your claim, that would still be one third better than Brood War.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:The entire point is that the villain is more fleshed out. There's actual depth and meat to the character(s) on the bad side, compared to Kerrigan (WoL) or the Dark Voice or Sauron. None of these last three have any depth to them whatsoever. No real motives. No agenda. No personality traits even. Just bland, bad guy lines.
You're lack of knowledge regarding Sauron is something I'd correct in some other, more suitable topic. And the idea that the UED had more depth or meat than Kerrigan is downright laughable - even you, their self-appointed defender could only defend them with "they're humans from Earth" and "it's fine to be an insignificant obstacle". Even Wings of Liberty's few appearances of Kerrigan had more depth to them than the UED had in the entire Brood War expansion which included an entire campaign devoted to them. They're like a random encounter in an RPG - they appear do some non-permanent damage and are promptly defeated, never to be mentioned again.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:That's my point. You set up this promising character and then blow it with WoL. Even if she does have few lines, her script/delivery of these lines was absolutely terrible and only enforced the idea of a one-dimensional character. And yes, the manipulation and deceit is part of character depth because it reveals personality traits. That's what she likes to do. Manipulation and all of that is much more interesting than, "ME EVIL. ME SMASH."
No. A villain who chooses deceit rather than say, a gun, is in no way deeper. It is a means to accomplishing a goal. It is a tool, a weapon, an ability. It is not character. If you find it more interesting, that's fine for you, but it is a fact that it does not mean character depth.
Not to mention that Kerrigan in Brood War was about as manipulative as your average teenage girl, and that she only succeeded because everyone she came into contact with decided to be an imbecile.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:Arcturus is a bumbling moron because he does nothing right. He's lagging behind Raynor's Raiders and getting bested the entire time while being portrayed as a leader of a clone of Communist Russia/Eastern Germany after fighting against exactly the same thing.
As for the latter part, the entire point that Arcturus was no different from the Confederacy was made all the way back in the Terran campaign of StarCraft. As for lagging behind Raynor's Raiders, you're just wrong. Raynor's Raiders won one important battle against Mengsk, in Media Blitz. And of course Raynor succeeded in besting Mengsk, he's the hero. It's about Raynor's awesomeness, not Mengsk being incompetent.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:You don't just say an offhand comment that was merely a fit of rage when the entire game stops and focuses solely on Raynor's speech. There was entirely too much emphasis on those words and the idea of the betrayal to just shrug it off. Furthermore, that and everything else I mentioned (inner struggles and all that) is potential that was completely wasted. It could've made for a far more interesting character and it was almost ignored entirely. And no, killing her wouldn't go directly against his character at all. She manipulated and betrayed him, killing his best friend, after he was betrayed by Mengsk and lost her. His sense of moral duty should actually drive him to kill the most dangerous being in the galaxy, if anything.
The entire game stops to listen to everybody's speeches. By that account, there is a serious, grave personal enmity between Tassadar and General Duke because in StarCraft Protoss mission 5, you can optionally kill, like, one Battlecruiser, eight Wraiths and a few Missile Turrets and Supply Depots, and the entire game stops to focus on Tassadar's and Duke's threats to kill each other.
Anyway, I never said it was an offhand comment, but it was a fit of rage. He was hurt and struck out, hoping to dilute his own pain by striking back at the source of his injury. But eventually, the pain dims and becomes just another wound in a seriously scarred psyche. Lashing out against Kerrigan will not bring back Fenix, but it will only add one more name to the list of dead people Raynor loved. Kerrigan is a slave and a victim, and while most people would not shirked at killing her to destroy the Queen of Blades, Raynor remembers Kerrigan as she was, he knows that she is not acting willingly, and what's worse, because he blames himself for not being able to save Sarah at New Gettysburg, he blames himself for the creation of the Queen of Blades. So he cannot blame Sarah for all the horrible things she's done under the control of the Swarm, because then he would have to blame himself as well, and that would destroy him. Saving Kerrigan, however, would undo the betrayal over Tarsonis in Raynor's mind. That's why I said, and say again, that there is no and never was any struggle. It is a choice between getting everything he's always wanted, atoning for his past mistakes, and saving the woman he loves on one hand, and self-destruction on the other. It is no choice at all.
On August 05 2010 15:39 TheBigJ wrote: I, for one, most emphatically DO NOT miss the bitter ending of SC BW. To be honest, I've gotten sick over the years of Blizzard's enormously depressing story lines. This was a very nice departure from that.
Loved the ending. It was extraordinarily satisfying. I've been waiting ten years (since the release of BW) for Raynor to save his lady, and he finally did it In my mind, it was an epic story of personal devotion...he literally went to the ends of the earth burning a path of destruction through whoever and whatever stood in his path, just to get her back. And he did it.
Did you even play SC1?
There's not even a hint of a romantic relationship between Raynor and Kerrigan in the first Terran campaign, and in Broodwar Kerrigan deceives and betrays Raynor and kills his friends.
In SC1 Kerrigan was strong and independent before and after being infested. Now she's a damsel in distress. It's disgusting.
At the end of BW Raynor swears that he'll kill Kerrigan. THAT would have been a fulfilling ending.
The moment that made me angry was when the Dark Voice was saying
"Hurr Durr, I hope you can't see to future, durr, cuz if you dont kill Kerrigan you will stop me, but this is the future and you will not know, durr hurr"
On August 10 2010 12:36 Lysdexia wrote: Did you even play SC1?
There's not even a hint of a romantic relationship between Raynor and Kerrigan in the first Terran campaign, and in Broodwar Kerrigan deceives and betrays Raynor and kills his friends.
In SC1 Kerrigan was strong and independent before and after being infested. Now she's a damsel in distress. It's disgusting.
At the end of BW Raynor swears that he'll kill Kerrigan. THAT would have been a fulfilling ending.
Oh, never mind that whole all life being wiped out by hybrids. Don't listen to Zeratul, that one Protoss dude that seems to know what he is talking about. Also, read the books and read between the lines in the games. There is somethin' happening between them.
In general, I'm kind of disgusted more at the fact that people aren't giving the story a chance when we have two campaigns left to play through. I'm not saying that Wings of Liberty was the greatest science fiction game ever, story wise, because it's not. Everyone is right, it IS cliche. But I'm pretty sure Blizzard isn't going to choose a story route that completely ruins the chance for sequels, just saying. Leaving it open to speculation is a good way to go, even if the ending of the Terran campaign has to be an enormous cliffhanger.
Personally, I think Wings of Liberty was fairly enjoyable. Maybe a little goofy at times, and the characters have changed (which is good and bad depending on how you look at it). Raynor appears to be a bit of a drunk, and after four years brooding over the fact that you supported a government that is no better then the old one, lost your potential girlfriend, don't have money, and are hunted by aforementioned new government, you are probably going to be a LITTLE bit irrational, at the very least. Most of the other characters were new and really didn't have much depth, but I think its fine to be honest. This campaign was about presenting Raynor's Raiders. Adding more important Terran characters would have bogged down that core experience, in my opinion.
To me, it just seems that most gamers are just very spoiled after playing games like Mass Effect 2. Blizzard's story writing has never been amazing, but its definitely never been terrible, and I think that is true for Wings of Liberty. Seriously, if you want great writing, just go read a book. Games will catch up, but its a very different form of creative art. Blizzard is definitely going into the correct path by getting players to interact and feel attached to characters. Lets be honest, how attached were you to the portraits in Brood War? Pretty attached, surprisingly enough. Why? Because they said shit. I think one of my favorite games, story wise, is BioShock with all of the little tape recordings. Why? They talked to you, as a character, and presented the game world. Thats the same direction SC2 is going with its campaign. The only problem everyone seems to have is that the characters in Wings of Liberty, apart from Raynor and maybe Tychus, are fairly thin, and I agree. I just feel that there are going to be more and more important characters in the next few campaigns that will make that personal experience with the game that much more enjoyable.
Just please, please give it time. All the whining on the single player forum kind of bugs me, because I really don't think the story is as bad as people make it out to be.
On August 10 2010 12:36 Lysdexia wrote: Did you even play SC1?
There's not even a hint of a romantic relationship between Raynor and Kerrigan in the first Terran campaign, and in Broodwar Kerrigan deceives and betrays Raynor and kills his friends.
In SC1 Kerrigan was strong and independent before and after being infested. Now she's a damsel in distress. It's disgusting.
At the end of BW Raynor swears that he'll kill Kerrigan. THAT would have been a fulfilling ending.
Oh, never mind that whole all life being wiped out by hybrids. Don't listen to Zeratul, that one Protoss dude that seems to know what he is talking about. Also, read the books and read between the lines in the games. There is somethin' happening between them.
YES THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AWESOME!
Prophecies are a TERRIBLE story mechanic. It would have been much more interesting for Raynor to knowingly go against the prophecy and have to deal with the repercussions.
As it is now the fight against the Dark Voice is totally bland. Just keep Kerrigan alive and watch all the pieces fall neatly into place and everyone lives happily ever after. Kerrigan being dead would introduce an element of uncertainty and make the fight against the dark voice actually exciting. I mean, who says the prophecy is accurate?
Plus it would have created conflict between Raynor and Zeratul, and all the Protoss in fact. Blizzard has already said that Kerrigan will be the main character of HoTS, which means Raynor, the Protoss and the Zerg will all be friends fighting against the mysterious evil that wants to destroy everything for no adequately explained reason. If Kerrigan had died they would all be fighting each other AND the mysterious evil would still want to destroy everything. It would be much more interesting.
Raynor swore that he would kill Kerrigan. Kerrigan killed Fenix, and countless innocent people. The Overmind was dead and she had full control of her actions. It's pretty clear she liked being infested and wanted to be, as she put it, the queen bitch of the universe. Pitting Raynor's desire for revenge and the chance to put an end to the Zerg threat to humanity against the possible fate of the universe would have been a meaningful internal conflict. Much better than Raynor dropping everything and blindly rushing in because of a romance that didn't actually exist in the first game.
Plus it would have been a sweet ending:
Raynor activates the artifact and Kerrigan is weakened and alone. Raynor points a gun at her head.
Kerrigan: You can't kill me! What about the prophecy? Raynor: Prophecies are for Protoss scum! I'm a space cowboy bitch! *Bang*
And then Raynor and Tychus high five or something.
just finished the campaign, story sucked balls, what the hell is with this rpg like crap with the achievements and upgrades and research and making money
bring back the SC1 writers for a compelling story, that is all i ask for..
On August 10 2010 17:12 ray1234 wrote: just finished the campaign, story sucked balls, what the hell is with this rpg like crap with the achievements and upgrades and research and making money
bring back the SC1 writers for a compelling story, that is all i ask for..
I didn't really have a problem with the RPG elements, it's just that NOTHING REALLY HAPPENED in the story (outside the ending of course). If this was the original SC or BW's campaign, you would have gotten the same amount of story in like 3 or 4 missions.
As someone wrote somewhere (damn my memory), whole story looks as if it was generated by some World of Warcraft quest generator. It's so generic and bland it really doesn't fit the glory of Starcraft at all.
I think that the main problem with the WoL is not the story, but SC setting wich turned from dark, simple S-F lore to warcraft-like bullshit mess. Do you guys know, that Blizzard recognize Stukov's reincarnation as CANON? WTF is this shit? Lich King assaulted the fucking Braxis or something? Why would even Zergs reanimated some random terran vice-admiral? And how? In what fucking purpose? How they even taken the fucking body? Even if his funeral was a propaganda fake, just remember that the place where he was shut by Duran was under UED controll after the mission with saving Psi Disrupter. What the fuck Metzen was smoking when he was writing this shit? Generic fairy tale story is logical consequences of setting becoming more and more retarded.
And the idea that the UED had more depth or meat than Kerrigan is downright laughable - even you, their self-appointed defender could only defend them with "they're humans from Earth" and "it's fine to be an insignificant obstacle". Even Wings of Liberty's few appearances of Kerrigan had more depth to them than the UED had in the entire Brood War expansion which included an entire campaign devoted to them. They're like a random encounter in an RPG - they appear do some non-permanent damage and are promptly defeated, never to be mentioned again.
You must be kiddin, right? UED had its own interest to assault the Koprulu Sector. First, they are ruthless dictatorship that needs enemy to threat its citizens. Zergs, planet destroyers protoss and even the Dominion are pretty good at this. Remember a part with propaganda film that was speculating about overmind planing the invasion on Earth? They are much better than "Fools-muahahaha"-Kerigan becouse they got some political drives that force them to acting. (the plot with distant scaning the Koprulu is greater hole, but its not as shity as Stukov's resurection). Besides, involvement of the UED had a great consequences. They almoust devastated already weakened Zerg Swarm to the ground, so the Kerrigan could easily take control after UED's defeat.
Stukovs resurrection was a mission specifically made for Starcraft 64 - that should be enough to tell how "serious" it really was. I´m actually happy that they acnowledge that mess as official because they once put their Blizzard stamp on it. They know it´s bad and it´s unlikely that it will come up again but at least they didn´t retcon it because it was inconvenient looking back. They do that enough with Warcraft.
UED kinda worked with them actually having Characters with actual development. Unfortunately they have NO impact on the status quo of the SC universe. In fact SC:BW overall had little impact - just look at the plot recap during the installation.
Of course I put a lot of emphasis on them, they're the centre of the storyline. It's a problem when the entire expansion revolves around insignificant obstacles, and it's a problem when they replace what could have been a significant villain. Not every mission needs a significant villain, but the overall story needs a good antagonist, or else there's no real reason to feel like there's anything to be achieved.
They aren't the center of the story line, they're only the focus of the Terran campaign, similar to how the Orcs are the center of the Orc campain in RoC and make a cameo appearance in the Night Elf campaign.
Again, yes.
And that's where I just completely disagree. You say you could just ignore almost everything in Brood War, yet you could ignore everything in WoL except for the invasion of Char. It doesn't help your point.
What have you read? The campaign specifically mentions the eradication of all Zerg, The Story So Far mentions eradication of the Zerg, the wiki says it was an anti-Zerg weapon, nothing I've ever read suggests Protoss were evacuated from the planet, and the Temple is too small to house the entire Protoss population of Shakuras. I'm going to demand that you provide some backup for this claim.
It was more reasonable speculation because from the campaign, it seems that the Zerg have infested the planet, which would mean all animals/other Protoss would be dead. It doesn't ever mention getting Protoss off-planet, but we know there were some off-planet, and that's what I'm referring to. This is all a side argument to the actual point that it's still a better plot device that the Artifact from WoL, even if they're both bad.
It's not speculation, there never was a point. The complete lack of any purpose to the invasion of Shakuras is self-evident. Wings of Liberty did have a purpose. The story between Raynor and Kerrigan is one of the core developments of the entire StarCraft storyline, and even without that, removing the leader of the Zerg Swarm is inherently significant - as well say that Tassadar's sacrifice was worse than pointless.
No, WoL didn't have a purpose, that's what I've repeatedly said. What was actually purposeful in WoL? NOTHING. We know Kerrigan is the main character controlling the Swarm in HoS, so the ending hasn't really done anything, and everyone knows every mission except the Char mission was not only filler, but didn't even affect the ending in any way. At least the UED story line had an effect on the rest of Brood War - you can, quite literally, go through the campaign and skip damn near every mission, and it won't make a difference.
You're venturing into the purely hypothetical. How do you know what Daggoth would have done? It most certainly isn't the same thing that the Overmind would have done, as the Overmind controls every Zerg, including Kerrigan. We have no idea what he would have done, because he never could have been in such a situation. Furthermore, Daggoth was a developed character that proceeded naturally into the conflict, which is already a far cry better than the UED.
Daggoth was a semi-developed character. He was always just a mindless follower of the Overmind, and he wasn't even a special creation like Kerrigan, so he's far more likely to carry out the Overmind's plan.
Even if I were to accept your claim, that would still be one third better than Brood War.
Like I said, not everything in BW is filler, and filler that actually affects the story it is filling is better than completely useless filler.
You're lack of knowledge regarding Sauron is something I'd correct in some other, more suitable topic. And the idea that the UED had more depth or meat than Kerrigan is downright laughable - even you, their self-appointed defender could only defend them with "they're humans from Earth" and "it's fine to be an insignificant obstacle". Even Wings of Liberty's few appearances of Kerrigan had more depth to them than the UED had in the entire Brood War expansion which included an entire campaign devoted to them. They're like a random encounter in an RPG - they appear do some non-permanent damage and are promptly defeated, never to be mentioned again.
This isn't an argument. Really, there's absolutely no argument that can be logically made to say that Kerrigan from WoL is more fleshed out than the UED. It doesn't matter who was the focus. The execution of the story was still a complete failure. Kerrigan was a piece of trash generic villain with absolutely nothing to her, while we actually knew something of the UED. Again, not being focused on her isn't an excuse. Villains are rarely focused on, yet plenty of writers give them something besides mindless generic bad guy lines.
No. A villain who chooses deceit rather than say, a gun, is in no way deeper. It is a means to accomplishing a goal. It is a tool, a weapon, an ability. It is not character. If you find it more interesting, that's fine for you, but it is a fact that it does not mean character depth.
Not to mention that Kerrigan in Brood War was about as manipulative as your average teenage girl, and that she only succeeded because everyone she came into contact with decided to be an imbecile.
You're applying your overarching view of everything in BW to each character. How could they have known she manipulated different parties one at a time? Oh, right, they didn't.
As for her deceit, I'm not even going to argue this any more. If you can't see how Kerrigan from BW had significantly more personality than the mindless drone from WoL, you're blind.
As for the latter part, the entire point that Arcturus was no different from the Confederacy was made all the way back in the Terran campaign of StarCraft. As for lagging behind Raynor's Raiders, you're just wrong. Raynor's Raiders won one important battle against Mengsk, in Media Blitz. And of course Raynor succeeded in besting Mengsk, he's the hero. It's about Raynor's awesomeness, not Mengsk being incompetent.
So because the focus is on Raynor, lets make another shitty villain?
Oh, and he won several more victories over the Dominion, like every one of Horner's missions? And most of the beginning missions?
And about Mengsk, obviously he's a dictator, but he was a far cry from the Confederacy. Turning him into a clone like that is a lazy cop-out to try to look deep when there could've been much more interesting writing.
The entire game stops to listen to everybody's speeches. By that account, there is a serious, grave personal enmity between Tassadar and General Duke because in StarCraft Protoss mission 5, you can optionally kill, like, one Battlecruiser, eight Wraiths and a few Missile Turrets and Supply Depots, and the entire game stops to focus on Tassadar's and Duke's threats to kill each other.
Well, Tassadar dies like 4 missions later, so that's not a problem.
Anyway, I never said it was an offhand comment, but it was a fit of rage. He was hurt and struck out, hoping to dilute his own pain by striking back at the source of his injury. But eventually, the pain dims and becomes just another wound in a seriously scarred psyche. Lashing out against Kerrigan will not bring back Fenix, but it will only add one more name to the list of dead people Raynor loved. Kerrigan is a slave and a victim, and while most people would not shirked at killing her to destroy the Queen of Blades, Raynor remembers Kerrigan as she was, he knows that she is not acting willingly, and what's worse, because he blames himself for not being able to save Sarah at New Gettysburg, he blames himself for the creation of the Queen of Blades. So he cannot blame Sarah for all the horrible things she's done under the control of the Swarm, because then he would have to blame himself as well, and that would destroy him. Saving Kerrigan, however, would undo the betrayal over Tarsonis in Raynor's mind. That's why I said, and say again, that there is no and never was any struggle. It is a choice between getting everything he's always wanted, atoning for his past mistakes, and saving the woman he loves on one hand, and self-destruction on the other. It is no choice at all.
First, the bolded part is highly speculative. What was "mind controlling" her in Brood War?
To the main point, this shows a whole slew of problems with the story line. There are no past mistakes to atone for. Blizzard's attempt at giving Raynor some everlasting guilt is poorly done and ridiculous because anyone who played that mission knows that not only could it not be his fault, it's ridiculous that he thinks he could've done something. She not only told him to "drop the knight in shining armor routine", the leader of their forces, the man that commands all military forces for the Sons of Korhal, told them to pull out. His guilt was just a weak attempt at some depth.
Again, the struggle was potential that failed. He should have a sense of moral justice that knows that they need to kill Kerrigan. Why? Because she's probably killed more humans and done more personal harm to people's lives (including his own) than any other bad guy in the galaxy. And again, no free will? It seems like she has plenty of itin BW, especially since the Overmind designed her to be the "rebellion" against the Xel'Naga's directives.
And really, a choice between "good choice" and "bad choice" isn't any kind of choice. It boils down to a shitty love story that was contrived after the original SC actually came out. If you're going to do a love story, add a little more interesting parts instead of, "She was kindnapped and brainwashed/*insert random description here* and she isn't free so I need to save her."
On August 04 2010 12:24 Gedrah wrote: Yeah, Mengsk seemed like a fizzling non-factor throughout the campaign. You never really even fight against him. Where the fuck is he, all this time? Why are you never attacked by his forces in any way, shape, or form, but instead free to take the battle to him every time? Is he so terrified of Kerrigan and busy with the Zerg invasion (which we scarcely see any of, as Mengsk is busy defending the core worlds?) that he can't lift one finger to defend the legacy for which he murdered an entire planet?
The bit with Horner and Raynor knowing about Tychus' killswitch was also glaring. They don't do ANYTHING about it. If Tychus had shot Kerrigan in the face without a word, Raynor would've had no right to complain. He knew something was up and didn't follow-up on it. That's worse than ignoring an unpaid bill.
Arcturus Mengsk is a nonfactor for a reason - he is very much a behind-the-scenes never-gets-his-hands-dirty sort of tyrant. (Kind of like an evil version of Albus Dumbledore of the Harry Potter books/movies, or Hope Hubris from the Bio of a Space Tyrant SF novels.) Jim Raynor is a firm believer in the old adage "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Raynor smelled something fishy when Tychus showed up in the first place - after all, the man was "literally" on ice in a Dominion prison and Mengsk KNEW that he and Jim were old running-mates; why would a man that hates Raynor's guts send Tychus Raynor's way? Also, despite Raynor's suspicions, he would do NOTHING until Tychus acted (Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Partly why Raynor was a Confed marshal in the first place, and why Mengsk hated Raynor's guts, too.). It's what makes Jim Raynor Jim Raynor. Had Tychus killed Kerrigan, Jim would likely have eaten his own gun after (he felt guilty enough over what happened to Kerrigan, which was entirely Mengsk's fault); however, he would have been just as blameless as he was over Kerrigan winding up in the Overmind's tentacles in the first place.
Even back in the days of the Sons of Korhal, Mengsk was the *political* face of the Sons; it was Duke (and, to an extent, later Raynor himself) that was operations boss.
Also, Arcturus Mengsk had made a LOT of enemies and stepped on an entire galaxy full of toes to get to where he wound up - there was No Way he was going to stick his neck out where any one of his many enemies (and especially neither Raynor OR Kerrigan!) would give him a short haircut (by literally removing his head frrom his neck).
On August 04 2010 12:24 Gedrah wrote: Yeah, Mengsk seemed like a fizzling non-factor throughout the campaign. You never really even fight against him. Where the fuck is he, all this time? Why are you never attacked by his forces in any way, shape, or form, but instead free to take the battle to him every time? Is he so terrified of Kerrigan and busy with the Zerg invasion (which we scarcely see any of, as Mengsk is busy defending the core worlds?) that he can't lift one finger to defend the legacy for which he murdered an entire planet?
The bit with Horner and Raynor knowing about Tychus' killswitch was also glaring. They don't do ANYTHING about it. If Tychus had shot Kerrigan in the face without a word, Raynor would've had no right to complain. He knew something was up and didn't follow-up on it. That's worse than ignoring an unpaid bill.
Arcturus Mengsk is a nonfactor for a reason - he is very much a behind-the-scenes never-gets-his-hands-dirty sort of tyrant. (Kind of like an evil version of Albus Dumbledore of the Harry Potter books/movies, or Hope Hubris from the Bio of a Space Tyrant SF novels.) Jim Raynor is a firm believer in the old adage "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Raynor smelled something fishy when Tychus showed up in the first place - after all, the man was "literally" on ice in a Dominion prison and Mengsk KNEW that he and Jim were old running-mates; why would a man that hates Raynor's guts send Tychus Raynor's way? Also, despite Raynor's suspicions, he would do NOTHING until Tychus acted (Innocent until proven guilty, remember? Partly why Raynor was a Confed marshal in the first place, and why Mengsk hated Raynor's guts, too.). It's what makes Jim Raynor Jim Raynor. Had Tychus killed Kerrigan, Jim would likely have eaten his own gun after (he felt guilty enough over what happened to Kerrigan, which was entirely Mengsk's fault); however, he would have been just as blameless as he was over Kerrigan winding up in the Overmind's tentacles in the first place.
Even back in the days of the Sons of Korhal, Mengsk was the *political* face of the Sons; it was Duke (and, to an extent, later Raynor himself) that was operations boss.
Also, Arcturus Mengsk had made a LOT of enemies and stepped on an entire galaxy full of toes to get to where he wound up - there was No Way he was going to stick his neck out where any one of his many enemies (and especially neither Raynor OR Kerrigan!) would give him a short haircut (by literally removing his head from his neck).
A quote (from Kerrigan, oddly enough) spoke of her Ultimate Plan; it was, literally, a Biblical Cataclysm (Samson and the Philistines ring a bell?). Even though Raynor never heard the quote until much later (via the memory crystal that Zeratul dropped on him aboard the Hyperion), he knew enough about HER to expect her to be hunting for Mengsk's scalp! (To quote Raynor - "She's coming to finish the job!") And if Raynor knew it, you can certainly figure that MENGSK knew it. And while Arcturus Mengsk is a tyrant and manipulator of high order, like most that operate behind the scenes, he is a physical coward.
Arcturus Mengsk is a nonfactor for a reason - he is very much a behind-the-scenes never-gets-his-hands-dirty sort of tyrant.
the best part of this new mensk is that he claims he stepped up to become emperor purely out of humanitarian reasons and then proceeds to do just about the same shit as the old confederacy. At the very least i wanted to have more input from that side of the story.
Because he is basically reduced to a newscast and i hate villains with little screentime.
Especially with what they make him do when the screentime he was given. It just eats me up inside to see my favourite man of the entire sc1 - broodwar storyline. Left to rot in broodwar and then proceed to fuck up everything he set out to do in the first place.
Mara sara especially upsets me. ok, forced labour it sorta makes sense but his soldiers fucking shoot that guy trying to run away. wtf was that about?
Its like they sat in the room saying. "ok, we want to portray mensk evil so lets have his soldiers shoot some innocents in front of the players eyes so that people can add 1+1 and deduce that "oh mensk is evil."
it would make alot more sense and be alot more subtle if you made raynors rebels motives more vague and questionable.
YES! MENSK came to power by chucking zerg at a planet filled with people and YES had i been in his position with that amount of ambition and drive i would have done the exact same thing but ultimately it is what he does with the power he has gained that defines how justified his actions where.
Rather than be a redeemable villain or simply a man who bears the burden of many lives that ultimately did it for the better of humanity blizzard said. PFFT fuck that, this guy is pure bad and even deals with hybrids now thats how bad he is.
Dont you just want to hug him? Oh, we know you do because thats how we made him.
I think the Story was okay. I am going to judge the story after the Legacy of the void is out and done. I think the multiple choice missions make the story seem less exciting since you do not have a direct plot from start to finish. I think they need the conference call mission briefings back since they had a lot more information/plot in them, then just what the mission is and what to expect.
Arcturus Mengsk is a nonfactor for a reason - he is very much a behind-the-scenes never-gets-his-hands-dirty sort of tyrant.
the best part of this new mensk is that he claims he stepped up to become emperor purely out of humanitarian reasons and then proceeds to do just about the same shit as the old confederacy. At the very least i wanted to have more input from that side of the story.
Because he is basically reduced to a newscast and i hate villains with little screentime.
Especially with what they make him do when the screentime he was given. It just eats me up inside to see my favourite man of the entire sc1 - broodwar storyline. Left to rot in broodwar and then proceed to fuck up everything he set out to do in the first place.
Mara sara especially upsets me. ok, forced labour it sorta makes sense but his soldiers fucking shoot that guy trying to run away. wtf was that about?
Its like they sat in the room saying. "ok, we want to portray mensk evil so lets have his soldiers shoot some innocents in front of the players eyes so that people can add 1+1 and deduce that "oh mensk is evil."
it would make alot more sense and be alot more subtle if you made raynors rebels motives more vague and questionable.
YES! MENSK came to power by chucking zerg at a planet filled with people and YES had i been in his position with that amount of ambition and drive i would have done the exact same thing but ultimately it is what he does with the power he has gained that defines how justified his actions where.
Rather than be a redeemable villain or simply a man who bears the burden of many lives that ultimately did it for the better of humanity blizzard said. PFFT fuck that, this guy is pure bad and even deals with hybrids now thats how bad he is.
Dont you just want to hug him? Oh, we know you do because thats how we made him.
/rant over.
While I have many problems with WoL's campaign, I don't really think this is one of them.
The whole point of Mengsk's character in Starcraft is that he starts off as an honorable man who eventually becomes the monster he tries to fight against. This wasn't a retcon or change of writing; even SC1+BW hammered it into our heads that Mengsk is no longer sympathetic and is just as bad as the Confederacy. The entire betrayal of Kerrigan was basically the point of no return for him, and just because you happen to agree with Mengsk's decision doesn't change the fact that it was clearly presented and treated as a horrible thing to do. So it doesn't really contradict anything when he oppresses citizens and treats them like crap because that's precisely the type of character that he would turn into.
The problems with Mengsk in WoL had more to do with the fact that he's pretty much a non-entity who gets bested by Raynor at every opportunity. He had no presence whatsoever and that's really bad considering the fact that he was supposedly the reason Raynor had a revolution in the first place.
On August 10 2010 12:06 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I should say that I'm confused that people claim they want more character depth, but also complain that characters don't act like, cold, calculating, emotionless robots. Realistic characters act in irrational ways, because they are overtaken by emotion. Obviously, Mengsk should have reacted to the tape dismissively, refused to give it any importance, but Arcturus Mengsk is a human being too. He knows that the tape is real, he knows that he was caught, he knows that he was outplayed by Raynor, he knows that the tool he's been using to further his own goals for years has been turned against him. He knows he's the most powerful force in Terran space and there's nothing he can do to stop this. All that pisses him off. We already know that Arcturus has a temper, recall back to the last Terran mission in StarCraft, where he actually says that quote? After Raynor tells him to piss off? Did he sound like a cold, calculating emotionless robot then? Is there any real reason he should give that whole spiel at all? There isn't, but he does anyway, because he's angry. There he is, in the very splendour of triumph, standing upon the ruins of his long time enemy, and this insignificant subordinate dares to defy him? So yes, Mengsk didn't act in an optimal way, and that's what makes him an interesting character. Because he has motivations, emotions, desires, an ego. And someone isn't a bumbling moron just because he gets pissed when you kick him in the balls.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:Kerrigan wasn't the worst villain in the series. She was fine in BW, but terrible in WoL.
That said, you seem to be putting too much emphasis on the UED. Some things are just that - obstacles. It's fine for the Tal'darim to have merit for just being an obstacle to Raynor. It's fine for the UED to have some merit for just being Kerrigan's enemy. The problem with the Tal'darim is we don't know their goals, their motives, their agenda. We don't know any of that, while we know the UED's. The UED is much more fleshed out than the Tal'darim is.
Of course I put a lot of emphasis on them, they're the centre of the storyline. It's a problem when the entire expansion revolves around insignificant obstacles, and it's a problem when they replace what could have been a significant villain. Not every mission needs a significant villain, but the overall story needs a good antagonist, or else there's no real reason to feel like there's anything to be achieved.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:From everything I've read, they did get all of the Protoss either off-planet or into Temple, thus it would just wipe out all life on the planet. And I don't think the survival of a map tileset critter counts as too much evidence, not even bringing up the possibility of the Protoss taking care of/breeding animals for the wild in ways that humans can even do today.
What have you read? The campaign specifically mentions the eradication of all Zerg, The Story So Far mentions eradication of the Zerg, the wiki says it was an anti-Zerg weapon, nothing I've ever read suggests Protoss were evacuated from the planet, and the Temple is too small to house the entire Protoss population of Shakuras. I'm going to demand that you provide some backup for this claim.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:This is just speculation of the point after the fact. Furthermore, like I've been saying, why is this special to point out? WoL did the same thing, except (arguably) worse.
It's not speculation, there never was a point. The complete lack of any purpose to the invasion of Shakuras is self-evident. Wings of Liberty did have a purpose. The story between Raynor and Kerrigan is one of the core developments of the entire StarCraft storyline, and even without that, removing the leader of the Zerg Swarm is inherently significant - as well say that Tassadar's sacrifice was worse than pointless.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:I explained how the UED is a better antagonist than Daggoth. What would Daggoth do? Oh, right, the exact same thing that the Overmind was. Not much of an evolving story.
You're venturing into the purely hypothetical. How do you know what Daggoth would have done? It most certainly isn't the same thing that the Overmind would have done, as the Overmind controls every Zerg, including Kerrigan. We have no idea what he would have done, because he never could have been in such a situation. Furthermore, Daggoth was a developed character that proceeded naturally into the conflict, which is already a far cry better than the UED.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:The entire point is that the villain is more fleshed out. There's actual depth and meat to the character(s) on the bad side, compared to Kerrigan (WoL) or the Dark Voice or Sauron. None of these last three have any depth to them whatsoever. No real motives. No agenda. No personality traits even. Just bland, bad guy lines.
You're lack of knowledge regarding Sauron is something I'd correct in some other, more suitable topic. And the idea that the UED had more depth or meat than Kerrigan is downright laughable - even you, their self-appointed defender could only defend them with "they're humans from Earth" and "it's fine to be an insignificant obstacle". Even Wings of Liberty's few appearances of Kerrigan had more depth to them than the UED had in the entire Brood War expansion which included an entire campaign devoted to them. They're like a random encounter in an RPG - they appear do some non-permanent damage and are promptly defeated, never to be mentioned again.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:That's my point. You set up this promising character and then blow it with WoL. Even if she does have few lines, her script/delivery of these lines was absolutely terrible and only enforced the idea of a one-dimensional character. And yes, the manipulation and deceit is part of character depth because it reveals personality traits. That's what she likes to do. Manipulation and all of that is much more interesting than, "ME EVIL. ME SMASH."
No. A villain who chooses deceit rather than say, a gun, is in no way deeper. It is a means to accomplishing a goal. It is a tool, a weapon, an ability. It is not character. If you find it more interesting, that's fine for you, but it is a fact that it does not mean character depth.
Not to mention that Kerrigan in Brood War was about as manipulative as your average teenage girl, and that she only succeeded because everyone she came into contact with decided to be an imbecile.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:Arcturus is a bumbling moron because he does nothing right. He's lagging behind Raynor's Raiders and getting bested the entire time while being portrayed as a leader of a clone of Communist Russia/Eastern Germany after fighting against exactly the same thing.
As for the latter part, the entire point that Arcturus was no different from the Confederacy was made all the way back in the Terran campaign of StarCraft. As for lagging behind Raynor's Raiders, you're just wrong. Raynor's Raiders won one important battle against Mengsk, in Media Blitz. And of course Raynor succeeded in besting Mengsk, he's the hero. It's about Raynor's awesomeness, not Mengsk being incompetent.
On August 10 2010 04:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:You don't just say an offhand comment that was merely a fit of rage when the entire game stops and focuses solely on Raynor's speech. There was entirely too much emphasis on those words and the idea of the betrayal to just shrug it off. Furthermore, that and everything else I mentioned (inner struggles and all that) is potential that was completely wasted. It could've made for a far more interesting character and it was almost ignored entirely. And no, killing her wouldn't go directly against his character at all. She manipulated and betrayed him, killing his best friend, after he was betrayed by Mengsk and lost her. His sense of moral duty should actually drive him to kill the most dangerous being in the galaxy, if anything.
The entire game stops to listen to everybody's speeches. By that account, there is a serious, grave personal enmity between Tassadar and General Duke because in StarCraft Protoss mission 5, you can optionally kill, like, one Battlecruiser, eight Wraiths and a few Missile Turrets and Supply Depots, and the entire game stops to focus on Tassadar's and Duke's threats to kill each other.
Anyway, I never said it was an offhand comment, but it was a fit of rage. He was hurt and struck out, hoping to dilute his own pain by striking back at the source of his injury. But eventually, the pain dims and becomes just another wound in a seriously scarred psyche. Lashing out against Kerrigan will not bring back Fenix, but it will only add one more name to the list of dead people Raynor loved. Kerrigan is a slave and a victim, and while most people would not shirked at killing her to destroy the Queen of Blades, Raynor remembers Kerrigan as she was, he knows that she is not acting willingly, and what's worse, because he blames himself for not being able to save Sarah at New Gettysburg, he blames himself for the creation of the Queen of Blades. So he cannot blame Sarah for all the horrible things she's done under the control of the Swarm, because then he would have to blame himself as well, and that would destroy him. Saving Kerrigan, however, would undo the betrayal over Tarsonis in Raynor's mind. That's why I said, and say again, that there is no and never was any struggle. It is a choice between getting everything he's always wanted, atoning for his past mistakes, and saving the woman he loves on one hand, and self-destruction on the other. It is no choice at all.
The tel'Darim are very much old-school Protoss (the Protoss equivalent of the Wahhabi sect of Islam); in fact, we ran into their sort way back in SC (this was, in fact, the same sort of thinking that landed Tassadar in hack); and wasn't it Raynor that busted Tassadar OUT of hack? Even more embarrassing for the tel'Darim, they are being used (apparently there is a connection to the Hybrids, and to whatever force corrupted the Zerg Overmind).
That major battle was not a real one, but a "forseen battle" should Raynor LOSE on Char (Zeratul said as much in the preface to that battle on Shakuras). There is no way that the Protoss will win that battle. (Kerrigan literally has *limitless* Zerg at her disposal.) However, because Raynor restores Kerrigan's humanity, the Zerg are now largely leaderless (except for individual Broods and their Cerebrates); therefore, the Battle of Shakuras will be either largely different, or won't happen at all.
WoL shows that there are victims galore (and some surprising ones). We knew (or at least suspected) that Kerrigan was one of them; however, would we, in our wildest drug dreams, have even remotely considered the Zerg as a species as victims? (Thanks to WoL's storyline, we now know with absolute certainty that the Zerg, and especially the Overmind, were used by *something*. Worse, it happened prior to their being "gifted" with Kerrigan by Mengsk.) And for all of Arcturus Mengsk's schemes and behind-the-scenes maneuvering, could there be something pulling *his* strings? (Consider the connection between the tel'Darim and the Hybrids.)
The lines are getting seriously blurred between hero and villain, and there may yet be a time when Terrans, Protoss, and Zerg will fight together against a common adversary (likely the force behind the Hybrids) in the last of the threepart story.
Prophecies are a TERRIBLE story mechanic. It would have been much more interesting for Raynor to knowingly go against the prophecy and have to deal with the repercussions.
As it is now the fight against the Dark Voice is totally bland. Just keep Kerrigan alive and watch all the pieces fall neatly into place and everyone lives happily ever after. Kerrigan being dead would introduce an element of uncertainty and make the fight against the dark voice actually exciting. I mean, who says the prophecy is accurate?
Plus it would have created conflict between Raynor and Zeratul, and all the Protoss in fact. Blizzard has already said that Kerrigan will be the main character of HoTS, which means Raynor, the Protoss and the Zerg will all be friends fighting against the mysterious evil that wants to destroy everything for no adequately explained reason. If Kerrigan had died they would all be fighting each other AND the mysterious evil would still want to destroy everything. It would be much more interesting.
Raynor swore that he would kill Kerrigan. Kerrigan killed Fenix, and countless innocent people. The Overmind was dead and she had full control of her actions. It's pretty clear she liked being infested and wanted to be, as she put it, the queen bitch of the universe. Pitting Raynor's desire for revenge and the chance to put an end to the Zerg threat to humanity against the possible fate of the universe would have been a meaningful internal conflict. Much better than Raynor dropping everything and blindly rushing in because of a romance that didn't actually exist in the first game.
Plus it would have been a sweet ending:
Raynor activates the artifact and Kerrigan is weakened and alone. Raynor points a gun at her head.
Kerrigan: You can't kill me! What about the prophecy? Raynor: Prophecies are for Protoss scum! I'm a space cowboy bitch! *Bang*
And then Raynor and Tychus high five or something.
I gotta agree with this post. It would have been far more interesting if she got whacked.
The main problem with WoL and no one can deny it is predictability. Shallow characters- no probs, one dimensional characters-no probs, plot holes- no probs, other crap I didn't mention- no probs because I like the universe and my role as a bad ass space cowboy but when with all of that you add predictability it's just too much. If you know the prior story and had watched the trailers pre-launch you can guess the very ending, I've already said that, how can that be OK?! And also as you learn things in the campaign things become even more painfully obvious. After the end I think I can more or less guess the ending of the trilogy. Kerrigan is now with Raynor, she rounds up the Zerg, at some point the Hybrids will arrive to contest her control, they will fail completely or mostly, then she will kill or destroy Mengsk, Zeratul will gather the Protoss tribes, then with the Protoss united they will face the Hybrids with little effect, then Kerrigan and Raynor arrive to join them in a hopeless final battle and just when all seems pointless one of the main characters will die in some deus-ex machina move which kills the Dark Voice, The END.
Another thing that I don't get is how people can be okay with such a massive cliffhanger at the end and absolutely no closure of any kind because "it's a trilogy." It's not alright for a standalone game to in such a way and even more so because the next part is in a year and a half MINIMUM.
Prophecies are a TERRIBLE story mechanic. It would have been much more interesting for Raynor to knowingly go against the prophecy and have to deal with the repercussions.
As it is now the fight against the Dark Voice is totally bland. Just keep Kerrigan alive and watch all the pieces fall neatly into place and everyone lives happily ever after. Kerrigan being dead would introduce an element of uncertainty and make the fight against the dark voice actually exciting. I mean, who says the prophecy is accurate?
Plus it would have created conflict between Raynor and Zeratul, and all the Protoss in fact. Blizzard has already said that Kerrigan will be the main character of HoTS, which means Raynor, the Protoss and the Zerg will all be friends fighting against the mysterious evil that wants to destroy everything for no adequately explained reason. If Kerrigan had died they would all be fighting each other AND the mysterious evil would still want to destroy everything. It would be much more interesting.
Raynor swore that he would kill Kerrigan. Kerrigan killed Fenix, and countless innocent people. The Overmind was dead and she had full control of her actions. It's pretty clear she liked being infested and wanted to be, as she put it, the queen bitch of the universe. Pitting Raynor's desire for revenge and the chance to put an end to the Zerg threat to humanity against the possible fate of the universe would have been a meaningful internal conflict. Much better than Raynor dropping everything and blindly rushing in because of a romance that didn't actually exist in the first game.
Plus it would have been a sweet ending:
Raynor activates the artifact and Kerrigan is weakened and alone. Raynor points a gun at her head.
Kerrigan: You can't kill me! What about the prophecy? Raynor: Prophecies are for Protoss scum! I'm a space cowboy bitch! *Bang*
And then Raynor and Tychus high five or something.
I gotta agree with this post. It would have been far more interesting if she got whacked.
The main problem with WoL and no one can deny it is predictability. Shallow characters- no probs, one dimensional characters-no probs, plot holes- no probs, other crap I didn't mention- no probs because I like the universe and my role as a bad ass space cowboy but when with all of that you add predictability it's just too much. If you know the prior story and had watched the trailers pre-launch you can guess the very ending, I've already said that, how can that be OK?! And also as you learn things in the campaign things become even more painfully obvious. After the end I think I can more or less guess the ending of the trilogy. Kerrigan is now with Raynor, she rounds up the Zerg, at some point the Hybrids will arrive to contest her control, they will fail completely or mostly, then she will kill or destroy Mengsk, Zeratul will gather the Protoss tribes, then with the Protoss united they will face the Hybrids with little effect, then Kerrigan and Raynor arrive to join them in a hopeless final battle and just when all seems pointless one of the main characters will die in some deus-ex machina move which kills the Dark Voice, The END.
Another thing that I don't get is how people can be okay with such a massive cliffhanger at the end and absolutely no closure of any kind because "it's a trilogy." It's not alright for a standalone game to in such a way and even more so because the next part is in a year and a half MINIMUM.
It's almost as if we've seen many of the major points of the Starcraft story before in some other game made by the same company....
I agree with most of the points of the OP. Although actually playing some of the missions were fun, the plot was a big let down, especially at the end.
It looks to me like the whole story was written by some WoW story writers. They can make anyone come back to life whenever they choose and completely disregard how characters acted in the past. After playing too many years of WoW myself the story was complete and utter crap after maybe the original game, but who payed any attention to the WoW story anyway...
Well, I've laid down my arguments, and it's up to the individual whether they recognise or refuse to accept them. Ultimately, if you enjoyed Brood War's storyline, then good for you, and if you didn't enjoy Wings of Liberty's, then it's your loss.I liked this new game's story fine, but that was probably because I hadn't deluded myself into thinking that the previous instalments had good ones, so I approached it with modest expectations. It was a definite improvement on Brood War, so I was satisfied enough. I enjoyed Brood War when I played it, though whenever I play it again I feel like groaning, and I enjoyed Wings of Liberty too, for all its faults and flaws. If I want a good story, there are other, far more story-driven media out there.
And hell, while I say that StarCraft's storyline was great, it's not in any objective term. It had a simple and effective storyline, but all the crimes that Wings of Liberty has been accused of having were also present in StarCraft. No, I loved that game's story for the charm I've always found in sci-fi, the thrill of discovery. Back in StarCraft, everything was new, we slowly embarked on a journey of discovery for the world and its people. That was its great quality, and something that really can never be replicated again. It's also why I enjoy starting a lot of sci-fi series, even outright awful ones, but never end them, or even really follow them for more than a season.
So yeah, from what I've seen it's not that most of the criticisms about Wings of Liberty are unfounded - though some are - it's that people have convinced themselves that these don't apply to the previous instalments.
On August 11 2010 02:51 bertolo wrote: I agree with most of the points of the OP. Although actually playing some of the missions were fun, the plot was a big let down, especially at the end.
It looks to me like the whole story was written by some WoW story writers. They can make anyone come back to life whenever they choose and completely disregard how characters acted in the past. After playing too many years of WoW myself the story was complete and utter crap after maybe the original game, but who payed any attention to the WoW story anyway...
Yeah, f.e. you can like all the "Overmind quest to free zerg race" as long as you like orcs. Becouse that's what zergs are already becoming ("but we are becoming much much more...orcish"). This plot is the same shity stuff as all the quests to realese orcs from Manaroth's control or whatever that fat mofo's name was.
On August 11 2010 03:09 hitthat wrote: Yeah, f.e. you can like all the "Overmind quest to free zerg race" as long as you like orcs. Becouse that's what zergs are already becoming ("but we are becoming much much more...orcish"). This plot is the same shity stuff as all the quests to realese orcs from Manaroth's control or whatever that fat mofo's name was.
Exactly. Between Broodwar and SC2, the Zerg and Protoss had their cajones removed and turned into these touchy-feely "spiritual" races with feelings. Zeratul's voice rose a couple octaves, and the Overmind became the good-guy who didn't really want to conquer and assimilate the Protoss. Heck, he could've fooled me back in SC1!
The idea of the Zerg being "slaves" makes me cringe. Most of the Zerg strains are just wild beasts. Without their overriding purpose, none of them is going to start writing treatises on political philosophy. In fact, as I recall in Broodwar, without the Overmind and before Kerrigan took over, the Zerg were basically just killing each other.
What I would love to see in the expansions is for Zeratul's vision of the future to turn out to be a lie designed to mislead him. I doubt that will happen, though. I was really digging WoL until I hit the Prophecy missions, which felt like WarCraft 3 with StarCraft units. I'm hoping the expansions won't expand on that trend.
I feel like the core problem Blizzard has is with bringing back the xel'naga and making the Zerg-Protoss hybrid. It was obvious from the start that once the Zerg assimilated the Protoss, it was game-over, that was the doomsday scenario. That's what everyone wants to see, but once it happens that's the end. So Blizzard has to do this third-way deal where there are hybrids, but the races are still distinct, but since none of them can be as evil as the hybrids, the Zerg have to become good, or at least sort of good. Which isn't fun. And the Protoss have to become these victims fighting for survival, which isn't fun either, because in SC1 they were these bad-a$$ authority figures, full of confidence, who were merely caught off-guard by the power of the Zerg and had to adjust to a new situation.
You are making the mistake of over analysing sci fi. Even with our current technology we can detect fake audio now jump that forward a thousand years with a race that has conquered space travel and say that you can totally understand what an adjutants recording of an event is i am going to go out on a limb here and say its not being recorded on a tape deck and if it can be faked. You could then argue but why doesnt the writer explain that. Well he could but if he did that with every bit of alien and advanced technology the story would be lost amongst a plethora of boring technobabble which people would still pick holes in. Though it is why the very very best sci fi authors like Asimov and A C Clarke were also scientists IMO.
Its a thing you can fall into too much reading fantasy and sci fi. People often ignore the fact that someone can use magic or that warp drives work and start quibbling about how more basic things are "not realistic". Either stop reading or listening to this material or embrace it for what it is.
I cannot agree with OP as he is clearly lacking in needed info and makes funny conclusions.
We know that Mengsk and Duran are working together. We know that Duran is working for the Dark Voice and that he is behind the Hybrids. We also know that Hybrids need the Queen of Blades dead to rule the Zerg and defeat all the rest.
So Tycus reporting on Raynor's movements is not an issue. Once Hybrids get control of Zerg Terrans will be wiped out anyways. Only thing important is killing Kerrigan. That is why Tycus tries to talk to Raynor multiple times about killing her and in the end tries to do it himself. We are not sure how he was planning to celebrate his freedom after he killed her there as there was no way to come out of that alive.
As for Raynor not doing something about Tycus before the last scene that is a bit strange but can be explained by him being a big softy (which he is :D) and waiting for signs of betrayal.
As for Raynor boarding the Dominion fleet flagship, that was a stupid move but we know Valerian didn't really want him dead so they probably let him board.
Assault on Char is not that strange, they didn't come there to defeat the Zerg, and many of the Zerg forces are attacking the Terran planets. They also probably came as a surprise for Kerrigan and then in a bold move sabotaged a huge part of her swarm in that area. In the last mission we still see that they cannot survive, but only hold on for a while (until the artifact fully charges).
Mengsk being like that in the game is not much different then Mengsk after he comes into power in SC1 and in BW. He basically gives proclamations and does nothing of import (Raynor and Protoss does the most). For those wanting a really serious game those news casts kind of stand out. For me personally they were as funny as any good trash movie (I guess you need to know how to appreciate a good trash movie). As for not getting to finish Mengsk off, well I guess we need Mengsk for the next two parts of the story.
The ending with Kerrigan being saved is what is needed to stop what Overmind saw. If they killed her then the next two parts of the story would have been pointless.
The only question that stand is how is Valerian connected with Duran as we know Duran is pretending to be the head scientist of Moebius Foundation while Valerian is the owner/leader.
Am I the only one who thinks that, while the invasion of Char was MODERATELY stretched, the best way to attack any kind of base (even in SC2 multiplayer) while their army is decimating the entire universe (a reasonably large amount of figurative ground to cover) would be a "smaller" contingent of elite troops?
i.e. A dropship full of hellions dropped into your drone line while you are out there expanding and spreading creep?
While the success of the mission, I didn't totally agree with, since I was a fan of the whole "Bad guys win" ending to StarCraft, as everyone has said, this is just part 1. Blizzard hasn't let me down before, I can wait and see what happens.
And on a side note... The Mengsk wanting Kerrigan dead, and not Raynor, is the best way to rebuild his reputation. If Kerrigan dies, there is not much of a way even the news can spin it other than "Humanity wins. Zerg loses. Mengsk is doing SOMETHING right, saving what he can and all."
The mind control is certainly possible, but I am personally of the idea Mengsk will come out with some semblance of a plan. He may not be as sharp as he once was, but there are clear indications that he is still capable.
All in all, it always ends up a personal opinion. Like it or don't until we all have the full story. Until then, take from it what you will.
I was fascinated by this thread, which discusses a lot of the reactions I felt when going through and completing the campaign. I admit that I haven't read this thread in full yet, but[I have now read this thread in full, and] I did read cover-to-cover the corresponding threads on the EU and US Battle.net forums, which are arguably the longest threads there! In fact, let me preface this by giving the relevant links, lest I appear to claim originality here.
A lot of people seem to have mixed feelings about the campaign, and many excellent explanations have been given in this and in the other threads. But lots of people can't quite seem to put their finger on what's wrong, and even more people seem to rise up in defense of the game, and they appear, more often than not, very annoyed at the criticism.
First I'd like to clarify what it is that people are really criticising, and why the almost aggressively defensive stance of some people is not really justified. Major points of defense are: "you have to wait until all three games are out", "SC1/BW had just as bad a story", "SC1/BW were just as unrealistic", "you remember the past incorrectly", "read the expanded universe, it'll all make sense", "it's just a video game".
Well, all of those retorts are missing the point. Why? Because (I claim) the big problem with Wings of Liberty, which causes people to feel unimpressed by the campaign, is not a problem of story, of plot holes, of realism or of unresolved questions. It is first and foremost a problem of execution. The story is really not bad - what is terrible is the way the story was executed.
The story that you are trying to tell is really not necessarily all that important, but what is hugely important is how you tell the story. Perhaps SC1/BW didn't have the most ingenious and mind-boggling story, but it was brilliantly executed. The pacing was just right, and there was always something happening that kept the plot moving forward. In Wings of Liberty, people complain that the narrative isn't tight and that there is no focus. Even though the backstory may well make perfect sense, the narrative is terribly paced.
Too short, yet too long
Blizzard claimed that the campaign would consist of 26-30 Terran-only missions, because that many missions were needed for an "epic tale". But this is total nonsense! Out of the 26 playable missions, only five or six matter for the final resolution! The rest are nothing but glorified filler missions. People say "it's too short" because very little happens that ultimately matters, but at the same time it's very long because there are lots of ultimately boring missions. Don't get me wrong - each single mission is perfectly designed gameplay-wise. Just in the overarching narrative most of those missions end up as needless padding.
Too many choices, yet too few choices
Another complaint is the choice system. We are given several choices, the order in which to play the missions and even two minor story choices. But those choices have no implications, none whatsoever! So why did we get to make them in the first place? And the choice of order in which to play the missions seriously undermines the pacing of the plot. Finally, as a personal point of taste, I always thought that the way in which you stayed in orbit of one planet for a couple of missions in SC1 and then moved on to another planet gave the universe a certain sense of depth. But now we're randomly jumping around between worlds, and no two missions actually happen on the same world (apart from beginning and end) and there's no sense of travelling. So the entire midsection of the campaign just feels like we're visiting a couple of different towns in the same metropolitan area.
Why we are disappointed
Now let's come to the reason why lots of people are not just disappointed, but also feel the urge to speak up. It is not because we "just like to whine" or "bash Blizzard", and I daresay that it is not "because some people always complain". The point here is that it would have been very well possible, and rather easy, too, to make the campaign a lot better. And I don't mean that the story would need any changing. Whether or not you like the story is a different matter, and indeed that is a subjective matter. The main complaint people have (at least I allege that that's their main complaint) is not about a design choice which required a compromise and would only satisfy half the people. The main complaint is about the quality of the writing and the execution of the plot. You could have the exact same story, but told it differently so that the campaign would be tightly paced, strongly focused and have a rewarding pay-off. You want an alliance with half the imperial fleet? Make Raynor work for it and deserve it! You want to bring Kerrigan back? Make it a challenge that we know and fight for! You want a traitor in our midst? Don't give it away in the introduction! If you had made the writing better, then people who already love the game would still love it, but those of us who expected a bit more would have been a lot more impressed. Please don't be annoyed at our criticism - we are not threatening you!
Let me just make this point again, so that nobody comes up and tells me to wait for Episodes 2 and 3 or read the books. I don't have a problem with possible plot holes. I don't need everything resolved. I don't even care if Mutalisks flap their wings in space. All I want is a story which rewards my investment in the main characters. The drama comes from our support for the main characters against opposition, and the reward from their eventual overcoming of said opposition. The way Wings of Liberty was told, most of the game time I spent on it did nothing to bring about the eventual resolution. (For that matter, indulge me for a little thought experiment: Couldn't the entire campaign as it currently stands have been told from Valerian's perspective? He knows where the artifacts are, he knows what to do with them, and he could get Raynor in as a cameo for the final Char assault. Six missions, done.) The fact that this is just one game in a series is no excuse not to have a tight, rewarding narrative. If you compare this to the original games, you will see the difference.
People who complain that they didn't get three campaigns are (in my opinion) confused about what bothered them. It wasn't the fact that they didn't get to play three campaigns. It was because the campaign they got left them unsatisfied. It's because after ploughing through 20 missions, the end result is just handed to you and there is no pay-off.
Maybe the creators realised that playing through the plot didn't feel rewarding to the player, and they decided to bolt on a reward in the form of "achievements"... (The cynic would say that this is analogous to how the campaign was bolted on to the main game.) Rather than having 20 missions build up and lead up to the final mission, 20 missions lead up to shiny pixels on your profile page.
Some comparison and random bits
Now how does this compare to the original games? In SC1/BW, we had a total of about 56 missions, but they were told from many different perspectives: The Confederacy's magistrate, the Son's of Korhal, Raynor's group, the Overmind, the Protoss conclave, the UED, the Queen of Blades, and Zeratul. Nobody outstayed their welcome, and everything that happened moved the plot forward.
Oftentimes, people were caught up in events larger than themselves, swept along and confused - just like real life. A lot was happening, but there was no one single grand master plan and no ultimate goal. Nonetheless, the narration was extremely tight and gripping.
By contrast, Wings of Liberty has a single goal, foreshadowed after Mission 1 and dragging on until Mission 26. We have one single, boring perspective on a single, boring man doing boring stuff that has no relevance, until he's visited by the plot and taken by the hand to finish the game.
Let's run another quick comparison. A typical SC1/BW mission would take, say, one hour? One and a half? Assuming a 'normal', random customer, not an RTS expert. Some Broodwar missions may even take more than that. By comparison, the typical Wings of Liberty mission is maybe 20 minutes, with a few ones taking 30 or 40 minutes. So, very roughly, the ~30 missions of Wings of Liberty take just as long as 10 typical missions taken from SC1/BW! But while those ten missions would keep you intensely engaged, often on the same world for several missions, and all the while leading up to the finale, where the entire weight of the past is brought to bear on the player, the WoL missions jerk you from location to location every 20 minutes, with no time to really start caring about any one of them. In more cynical words, rather than maturing with the audience and building more complex missions and narratives, Blizzard chose to target the current generation of teenagers and cater for a dramatically reduced attention span. At the end of the WoL campaign, a lot of time has passed on the clock, but we don't really remember how and why, and thus we helplessly ask for more.
Art from adversity
Let me close this with an observation that has been made elsewhere and many times before: The concept of "art from adversity" - difficult circumstances make for good art. At the time of SC1/BW, technology was limited, so we got talking heads for briefings and extra story development during the missions. And that turned out great! It kept the pace up and the missions interesting (without requiring every mission to have a special kind of gimmick). Now, with infinite computing power, we get long briefing scenes on the ship, but do those really improve the narrative? The little ingame story events have disappeared, in any case.
Also, the original game had to break into a non-existent market, so they had to put all the campaigns into it. As a result, we have 10 well-paced, tightly focused missions for each faction, and again the result was great. Now, with the laurels from millions of fans and the guaranteed sales, Blizzard didn't have any pressure to convince or please anyone. I honestly believe that the statement "We need 26 missions for the full epicness of the Terran campaign" was an outright fabrication! As I said above, 6-10 missions would have been totally sufficient for the Terrans, and none of the other missions matter! So again, the temptation to be able to sell three games rather than one, and the liberty to be able to do so, made the result worse.
Perhaps the opening cutscene of Wings of Liberty was a good giveaway of what to expect: We spend long, drawn-out minutes on watching in the greatest detail some technical design, but in the end the entire cutscene only had one very small point of content. Very polished, with massive attention to detail, and no content. Just like the entire game.
Let's just end this in a quick test: What do you feel when you think about StarCraft and Broodwar? If the answer is "nothing in particular", the by all means disregard what people have to say here, close this window and enjoy the game. If the answer was something to the extent of a warm tingling with great memories and epic moments, then please answer question 2: Which was your most memorable moment in Wings of Liberty?
On August 12 2010 01:23 hack41 wrote: I was fascinated by this thread, which discusses a lot of the reactions I felt when going through and completing the campaign. I admit that I haven't read this thread in full yet, but I did read cover-to-cover the corresponding threads on the EU and Battle.net forums, which are arguably the longest threads there! In fact, let me preface this by giving the relevant links, lest I appear to claim originality here.
US Battle.net: Ending: What the hell? (This thread appears to have been deleted recently!)
GameReplays.org: my own little random write-up, also trying to clarify some story points
Alright, let's get into it.
A lot of people seem to have mixed feelings about the campaign, and many excellent explanations have been given in this and in the other threads. But lots of people can't quite seem to put their finger on what's wrong, and even more people seem to rise up in defense of the game, and they appear, more often than not, very annoyed at the criticism.
First I'd like to clarify what it is that people are really criticising, and why the almost aggressively defensive stance of some people is not really justified. Major points of defense are: "you have to wait until all three games are out", "SC1/BW had just as bad a story", "SC1/BW were just as unrealistic", "you remember the past incorrectly", "read the expanded universe, it'll all make sense", "it's just a video game".
Well, all of those retorts are missing the point. Why? Because (I claim) the big problem with Wings of Liberty, which causes people to feel unimpressed by the campaign, is not a problem of story, of plot holes, of realism or of unresolved questions. It is first and foremost a problem of execution. The story is really not bad - what is terrible is the way the story was executed.
The story that you are trying to tell is really not necessarily all that important, but what is hugely important is how you tell the story. Perhaps SC1/BW didn't have the most ingenious and mind-boggling story, but it was brilliantly executed. The pacing was just right, and there was always something happening that kept the plot moving forward. In Wings of Liberty, people complain that the narrative isn't tight and that there is no focus. Even though the backstory may well make perfect sense, the narrative is terribly paced.
Too short, yet too long
Blizzard claimed that the campaign would consist of 26-30 Terran-only missions, because that many missions were needed for an "epic tale". But this is total nonsense! Out of the 26 playable missions, only five or six matter for the final resolution! The rest are nothing but glorified filler missions. People say "it's too short" because very little happens that ultimately matters, but at the same time it's very long because there are lots of ultimately boring missions. Don't get me wrong - each single mission is perfectly designed gameplay-wise. Just in the overarching narrative most of those missions end up as needless padding.
Too many choices, yet too few choices
Another complaint is the choice system. We are given several choices, the order in which to play the missions and even two minor story choices. But those choices have no implications, none whatsoever! So why did we get to make them in the first place? And the choice of order in which to play the missions seriously undermines the pacing of the plot. Finally, as a personal point of taste, I always thought that the way in which you stayed in orbit of one planet for a couple of missions in SC1 and then moved on to another planet gave the universe a certain sense of depth. But now we're randomly jumping around between worlds, and no two missions actually happen on the same world (apart from beginning and end) and there's no sense of travelling. So the entire midsection of the campaign just feels like we're visiting a couple of different towns in the same metropolitan area.
Why we are disappointed
Now let's come to the reason why lots of people are not just disappointed, but also feel the urge to speak up. It is not because we "just like to whine" or "bash Blizzard", and I daresay that it is not "because some people always complain". The point here is that it would have been very well possible, and rather easy, too, to make the campaign a lot better. And I don't mean that the story would need any changing. Whether or not you like the story is a different matter, and indeed that is a subjective matter. The main complaint people have (at least I allege that that's their main complaint) is not about a design choice which required a compromise and would only satisfy half the people. The main complaint is about the quality of the writing and the execution of the plot. You could have the exact same story, but told it differently so that the campaign would be tightly paced, strongly focused and have a rewarding pay-off. You want an alliance with half the imperial fleet? Make Raynor work for it and deserve it! You want to bring Kerrigan back? Make it a challenge that we know and fight for! You want a traitor in our midst? Don't give it away in the introduction!
Let me just make this point again, so that nobody comes up and tells me to wait for Episodes 2 and 3 or read the books. I don't have a problem with possible plot holes. I don't need everything resolved. I don't even care if Mutalisks flap their wings in space. All I want is a story which rewards my investment in the main characters. The drama comes from our support for the main characters against opposition, and the reward from their eventual overcoming of said opposition. The way Wings of Liberty was told, most of the game time I spent on it did nothing to bring about the eventual resolution. (For that matter, indulge me for a little thought experiment: Couldn't the entire campaign as it currently stands have been told from Valerian's perspective? He knows where the artifacts are, he knows what to do with them, and he could get Raynor in as a cameo for the final Char assault. Six missions, done.) The fact that this is just one game in a series is no excuse not to have a tight, rewarding narrative. If you compare this to the original games, you will see the difference.
Some comparison and random bits
Now how does this compare to the original games? In SC1/BW, we had a total of about 56 missions, but they were told from many different perspectives: The Confederacy's magistrate, the Son's of Korhal, Raynor's group, the Overmind, the Protoss conclave, the UED, the Queen of Blades, and Zeratul. Nobody outstayed their welcome, and everything that happened moved the plot forward.
Oftentimes, people were caught up in events larger than themselves, swept along and confused - just like real life. A lot was happening, but there was no one single grand master plan and no ultimate goal. Nonetheless, the narration was extremely tight and gripping.
By contrast, Wings of Liberty has a single goal, foreshadowed after Mission 1 and dragging on until Mission 26. We have one single, boring perspective on a single, boring man doing boring stuff that has no relevance, until he's visited by the plot and taken by the hand to finish the game.
Art from adversity
Let me close this with an observation that has been made elsewhere and many times before: The concept of "art from adversity" - difficult circumstances make for good art. At the time of SC1/BW, technology was limited, so we got talking heads for briefings and extra story development during the missions. And that turned out great! It kept the pace up and the missions interesting (without requiring every mission to have a special kind of gimmick). Now, with infinite computing power, we get long briefing scenes on the ship, but do those really improve the narrative? The little ingame story events have disappeared, in any case.
Also, the original game had to break into a non-existent market, so they had to put all the campaigns into it. As a result, we have 10 well-paced, tightly focused missions for each faction, and again the result was great. Now, with the laurels from millions of fans and the guaranteed sales, Blizzard didn't have any pressure to convince or please anyone. I honestly believe that the statement "We need 26 missions for the full epicness of the Terran campaign" was an outright fabrication! As I said above, 6-10 missions would have been totally sufficient for the Terrans, and none of the other missions matter! So again, the temptation to be able to sell three games rather than one, and the liberty to be able to do so, made the result worse.
Perhaps the opening cutscene of Wings of Liberty was a good giveaway of what to expect: We spend long, drawn-out minutes on watching in the greatest detail some technical design, but in the end the entire cutscene only had one very small point of content. Very polished, with massive attention to detail, and no content. Just like the entire game.
Let's just end this in a quick test: What do you feel when you think about StarCraft and Broodwar? If the answer is "nothing in particular", the by all means disregard what people have to say here, close this window and enjoy the game. If the answer was something to the extent of a warm tingling with great memories and epic moments, then please answer question 2: Which was your most memorable moment in Wings of Liberty?
Totally agree. Mission needs something more. New POV too; Jimmy + ~Zeratul in 29 missions is too few.
I have to say I didn't realised Mutas are wooshing their wings in space :#.
I also think the faces could be more expressive, like in dragon age (not THAT much, but still... the scientist girl is zzzzzz).
Raynor: you don't have to do this Kerrigan... Kerrigan: Jim, stop the knight in shining armor act, it suits you sometimes but I have to do this...
The full flashback movie left an nice impression on me and maybe just maybe the protoss part of wings of liberty but still nothing as memorable as sc1 ;P
but by all accounts the most memorable in entire starcraft universe:
to be at the antagonist side, to heed the overminds every command and then realise you where guarding kerrigan.
It was my first "Im on the dark side" experience so naturally its still there in the back of my head.
Hack41, you really nailed it. It's already been touched on in this thread at least once, but you're absolutely right that the "we need 26-30 Terran missions for the full epicness" sounds like total baloney in hindsight. We didn't even get 26-30 Terran missions - we got 4 Protoss missions taking up real estate, plus 3 double-dip missions. So it's really only 22 missions and a "mini-campaign." In SC1, every mission mattered. More happened in 10 Terran missions in SC1 than happened in 22 of them in WoL.
If you think that to be fabrication hack41 read this:
Such is the scale of Wings of Liberty's storyline that Chris Metzen believes that it would take at least three novels to tell it were it in written form, though nine would be the preferred number.
Lol? Another of their mistakes as some have pointed out is overmarketing their game (as seen above), they raised our standards and then had little to show for it.
If you think that to be fabrication hack41 read this: [...] Lol? Another of their mistakes as some have pointed out is overmarketing their game (as seen above), they raised our standards and then had little to show for it.
Haha - pity the poor soul who would have to read those nine novels!
Does anyone remember Wing Commander? Poor Chris Roberts. He made one of the best video game series in the universe, but he was such a total, utter, miserable failure as a screenwriter and director for the film. Just because you create a universe does not make you master of all media, alas.
Re: overmarketing -- Not sure if that's what you meant, but this forum post is in my opinion an excellent analysis. I'm bringing it up because it ties in with my "art from adversity" statement: In the original SC1/BW, the visual style (i.e. sprites) was a result of the technical limitations. But lo! and behold, it works great for televising. In the new world of 2010 where "everything is possible", we get a new, soft, 3D aesthetic, which - according to that fine post - is not well suited for TV broadcasting. Now I don't know how true that is, but it would constitute another example where greater freedom is used for greater fuckupery. Likewise, tacking on the achievement system shows how everything is the wrong way round. In SC/BW, we played and were rewarded for our investment in the plot by the plot's resolution. In WoL, the rewards are physically tacked on as arbitrary achievements that have to be fulfilled literally and for their own sake. This is perfectly analogous to how SC/BW was sold as a good game and became an esport, and how WoL is sold as an esport because... damn you, it's an esport, get it?
I disagree with hack41 about the story being ok but the problem being one of execution.
The story's garbage, period. You can't get around it with presentation, though that was terrible too. Briefly, the story is bad because:
0.- There's actually barely any story to tell. The only things that happen are: ...a) Introduction of new "big bad". --lame ...b) Kerrigan goes back to human form. --incredibly lame ...c) Raynor sorta weakens Mengsk's rule with a broadcast. --boring and hardly believable ...d) Raynor loves Kerrigan --lazy, lame and kind of a retcon too 1.- Kerrigan getting "cured" back to human form is an incredibly lame concept. 2.- Prophecies are boring and lazy plot devices. Just don't use them ffs! 3.- Being prohibited from killing Kerrigan by said prophecy is very, very hamfisted. 4.- The Kerrigan/Raynor love story is lame, out of place and kind of a retcon. 5.- The Overmind turning out to be "courageous" and the zerg being "maybe not so evil after all" is incredibly lame 6.- Tassadar being alive and jesus-like is extremely lame. 7.- Kerrigan had no role whatsoever, other than getting pwned by the Xel'Naga thingy. In fact, that may qualify her as just another MacGuffin herself. Neither prancing around talking emo nor her minimal search for artifacts counts as "role". 8.- Which also means the Zerg did NOTHING during those 4 years they ominously retreated and hid. What were they up to? doesn't matter now. 9.- Mengsk has no role either. 10.- Raynor's always right whatever he does. No mission ever goes wrong and he always turns out right in the end, even the two missions that require a choice. He also has a severe case of "main character powers" that allow him to do whatever the plot requires. 11.- Hybrids and new big bad are boring and pointless. 12.- Having a terrible new big bad is only a way to try to hide the fact they couldn't think of anything interesting plot between the protoss/zerg/terrans. 13.- Retcons. No consistency means you can't involve your audience. If anything can change at the whim of the writer, there's no point for the audience to wonder about what the characters think/feel or what will happen next, since it's just random. 14.-Characters are flat and don't really think, feel nor do anything interesting. 15.-Huge story-gaps and plot-holes that inevitably make the audience question what's going on. Indisputable example is the boarding of Valerian's battlecruiser, but the successful invasion of Char and betrayal of Tychus are good runner-ups.
On August 12 2010 08:49 ghostunit wrote: I disagree with hack41 about the story being ok but the problem being one of execution. The story's garbage, period. You can't get around it with presentation, though that was terrible too. [...]
Of course I would never stop you from criticising the story, which in my personal opinion has many terrible, terrible weaknesses, but I maintain that that is a separate type of criticism, and it is far more subjective. For example, the question of Kerrigan gets a) killed, b) rehumanised, c) neither, is a question of subjective preference, and there will always be people who prefer one over the other. Which choice makes for good literature is a good question, but it is a different type of discussion, and I don't want it mixed in with the criticism of the execution. The story is questionable, but people may have different opinions on it and not like yours, there may not be an easy fix, and people may get angry if you're too assertive about what kind of story you want.
By contrast, the execution is just blatantly terrible and could have been done better, and that's what I'd like to criticise first. Imagine, if the same story had been perfectly told, with good pacing and rewarding pay-off, the criticism of the story would probably have been quite a bit less. I totally agree that "ancient prophecy", "alien artifacts", "return from the dead" and (my personal favourite) actual voodoo magic are a kiss of death, but I don't want that to be part of the current discussion, and I feel that it hurts the current debate by opening the topic up to people who do like voodoo dolls and will dismiss all other criticism out of hand.
Just to reply to your 15 points: All of them perfectly valid points, full ack. Just this: 5,6: I wouldn't quite call the Overmind and Tassadar part of the story just yet. For now, they're just gimmicks. (Of course they will become part of the story if they appear again in the next episodes.) 7,8,9 are matters of execution I think. 12 and 14 are kind of meta-arguments. 15 (Valerian) is execution: the story just says, "Raynor and Valerian meet and talk". The writer just thought, oh, let's make Raynor board the ship for no reason and shoot some guys.
(Oops, forward reply.)
On August 12 2010 09:01 Stratos_speAr wrote: Well said. We've focused a lot on execution in this thread, but I think the writing itself isn't being criticized enough.
Hm, not quite, the execution is the writing. The story is the idea in the writer's mind, the execution is the ink on the paper, if you will.
By all means, do start a discussion of the story, but I think it would be very useful if we could keep that in a separate topic from this one. Basically, I really don't believe that the bad backstory alone is the reason that the campaign is not memorable, derivative and boring. The game could have been memorable and iconic even with a dreadful story, if done right. The bad story is not something that could obviously have been done better and that someone (i.e. a literate adult) at Blizzard should have spotted.* I would really like to give Blizzard as much benefit of the doubt as possible here. And do expect much heavier backlash from people who disagree when you discuss the story. :-)
(Also, discussing the story will inevitably have to deal with the fact that we don't know the entire story yet. You can fault any part of a narrative for bad execution at that point, but it's harder to fault a story that you only know partially.)
*) I want to admit the possibility that a story has got itself "written into a corner". If that happens (e.g. to The Matrix), then it is very difficult to make a sequel with a great story. I don't say that's the case here, but it might be, and so I don't want to fault a sequel for a bad story.
On August 12 2010 08:49 ghostunit wrote: I disagree with hack41 about the story being ok but the problem being one of execution.
The story's garbage, period. You can't get around it with presentation, though that was terrible too. Briefly, the story is bad because:
0.- There's actually barely any story to tell. The only things that happen are: ...a) Introduction of new "big bad". --lame ...b) Kerrigan goes back to human form. --incredibly lame ...c) Raynor sorta weakens Mengsk's rule with a broadcast. --boring 1.- Kerrigan getting "cured" back to human form is an incredibly lame concept. 2.- Prophecies are boring and lazy plot devices. Just don't use them ffs! 3.- Being prohibited from killing Kerrigan by said prophecy is very, very hamfisted. 4.- The Kerrigan/Raynor love story is lame, out of place and kind of a retcon. 5.- The Overmind turning out to be "courageous" and the zerg being "maybe not so evil after all" is incredibly lame 6.- Tassadar being alive and jesus-like is extremely lame. 7.- Kerrigan had no role whatsoever, other than getting pwned by the Xel'Naga thingy. In fact, that may qualify her as just another MacGuffin herself. Neither prancing around talking emo nor her minimal search for artifacts counts as "role". 8.- Which also means the Zerg did NOTHING during those 4 years they ominously retreated and hid. What were they up to? doesn't matter now. 9.- Mengsk has no role either. 10.- Raynor's always right whatever he does. No mission ever goes wrong and he always turns out right in the end, even the two missions that require a choice. He also has a severe case of "main character powers" that allow him to do whatever the plot requires. 11.- Hybrids and new big bad are boring and pointless. 12.- Having a terrible new big bad is only a way to try to hide the fact they couldn't think of anything interesting plot between the protoss/zerg/terrans. 13.- Retcons. No consistency means you can't involve your audience. If anything can change at the whim of the writer, there's no point for the audience to wonder about what the characters think/feel or what will happen next, since it's just random.
Well said. We've focused a lot on execution in this thread, but I think the writing itself isn't being criticized enough.
I like the story so far in SC2. We have to remember that this is just the first part of three. Many of the stories are just a build up for the second two campaigns. You can't judge it alone. If you saw the first third of any movie then of course the story would suck. It is incomplete.
The part that got me the most was the Tassadar part. I was like WTF?!?
I agree with most people about the flow and logic of the campaign. I remember I finished all the Mobieus missions first and then Raynor's like "Kay, we're gonna go save Kerrigan!" and his whole crew is bitching at him. Then I played the Odin mission and suddenly his crew is like "Yay Raynor you're awesome!". The whole Tychus story wasn't convincing at all, I can't see how Raynor is that dumb after all of those hints.
On August 12 2010 01:23 hack41 wrote: I was fascinated by this thread, which discusses a lot of the reactions I felt when going through and completing the campaign. I admit that I haven't read this thread in full yet, but I did read cover-to-cover the corresponding threads on the EU and US Battle.net forums, which are arguably the longest threads there! In fact, let me preface this by giving the relevant links, lest I appear to claim originality here.
US Battle.net: Ending: What the hell? (This thread appears to have been deleted recently!)
GameReplays.org: my own little random write-up, also trying to clarify some story points
Alright, let's get into it.
A lot of people seem to have mixed feelings about the campaign, and many excellent explanations have been given in this and in the other threads. But lots of people can't quite seem to put their finger on what's wrong, and even more people seem to rise up in defense of the game, and they appear, more often than not, very annoyed at the criticism.
First I'd like to clarify what it is that people are really criticising, and why the almost aggressively defensive stance of some people is not really justified. Major points of defense are: "you have to wait until all three games are out", "SC1/BW had just as bad a story", "SC1/BW were just as unrealistic", "you remember the past incorrectly", "read the expanded universe, it'll all make sense", "it's just a video game".
Well, all of those retorts are missing the point. Why? Because (I claim) the big problem with Wings of Liberty, which causes people to feel unimpressed by the campaign, is not a problem of story, of plot holes, of realism or of unresolved questions. It is first and foremost a problem of execution. The story is really not bad - what is terrible is the way the story was executed.
The story that you are trying to tell is really not necessarily all that important, but what is hugely important is how you tell the story. Perhaps SC1/BW didn't have the most ingenious and mind-boggling story, but it was brilliantly executed. The pacing was just right, and there was always something happening that kept the plot moving forward. In Wings of Liberty, people complain that the narrative isn't tight and that there is no focus. Even though the backstory may well make perfect sense, the narrative is terribly paced.
Too short, yet too long
Blizzard claimed that the campaign would consist of 26-30 Terran-only missions, because that many missions were needed for an "epic tale". But this is total nonsense! Out of the 26 playable missions, only five or six matter for the final resolution! The rest are nothing but glorified filler missions. People say "it's too short" because very little happens that ultimately matters, but at the same time it's very long because there are lots of ultimately boring missions. Don't get me wrong - each single mission is perfectly designed gameplay-wise. Just in the overarching narrative most of those missions end up as needless padding.
Too many choices, yet too few choices
Another complaint is the choice system. We are given several choices, the order in which to play the missions and even two minor story choices. But those choices have no implications, none whatsoever! So why did we get to make them in the first place? And the choice of order in which to play the missions seriously undermines the pacing of the plot. Finally, as a personal point of taste, I always thought that the way in which you stayed in orbit of one planet for a couple of missions in SC1 and then moved on to another planet gave the universe a certain sense of depth. But now we're randomly jumping around between worlds, and no two missions actually happen on the same world (apart from beginning and end) and there's no sense of travelling. So the entire midsection of the campaign just feels like we're visiting a couple of different towns in the same metropolitan area.
Why we are disappointed
Now let's come to the reason why lots of people are not just disappointed, but also feel the urge to speak up. It is not because we "just like to whine" or "bash Blizzard", and I daresay that it is not "because some people always complain". The point here is that it would have been very well possible, and rather easy, too, to make the campaign a lot better. And I don't mean that the story would need any changing. Whether or not you like the story is a different matter, and indeed that is a subjective matter. The main complaint people have (at least I allege that that's their main complaint) is not about a design choice which required a compromise and would only satisfy half the people. The main complaint is about the quality of the writing and the execution of the plot. You could have the exact same story, but told it differently so that the campaign would be tightly paced, strongly focused and have a rewarding pay-off. You want an alliance with half the imperial fleet? Make Raynor work for it and deserve it! You want to bring Kerrigan back? Make it a challenge that we know and fight for! You want a traitor in our midst? Don't give it away in the introduction! If you had made the writing better, then people who already love the game would still love it, but those of us who expected a bit more would have been a lot more impressed. Please don't be annoyed at our criticism - we are not threatening you!
Let me just make this point again, so that nobody comes up and tells me to wait for Episodes 2 and 3 or read the books. I don't have a problem with possible plot holes. I don't need everything resolved. I don't even care if Mutalisks flap their wings in space. All I want is a story which rewards my investment in the main characters. The drama comes from our support for the main characters against opposition, and the reward from their eventual overcoming of said opposition. The way Wings of Liberty was told, most of the game time I spent on it did nothing to bring about the eventual resolution. (For that matter, indulge me for a little thought experiment: Couldn't the entire campaign as it currently stands have been told from Valerian's perspective? He knows where the artifacts are, he knows what to do with them, and he could get Raynor in as a cameo for the final Char assault. Six missions, done.) The fact that this is just one game in a series is no excuse not to have a tight, rewarding narrative. If you compare this to the original games, you will see the difference.
People who complain that they didn't get three campaigns are (in my opinion) confused about what bothered them. It wasn't the fact that they didn't get to play three campaigns. It was because the campaign they got left them unsatisfied. It's because after ploughing through 20 missions, the end result is just handed to you and there is no pay-off.
Maybe the creators realised that playing through the plot didn't feel rewarding to the player, and they decided to bolt on a reward in the form of "achievements"... (The cynic would say that this is analogous to how the campaign was bolted on to the main game.) Rather than having 20 missions build up and lead up to the final mission, 20 missions lead up to shiny pixels on your profile page.
Some comparison and random bits
Now how does this compare to the original games? In SC1/BW, we had a total of about 56 missions, but they were told from many different perspectives: The Confederacy's magistrate, the Son's of Korhal, Raynor's group, the Overmind, the Protoss conclave, the UED, the Queen of Blades, and Zeratul. Nobody outstayed their welcome, and everything that happened moved the plot forward.
Oftentimes, people were caught up in events larger than themselves, swept along and confused - just like real life. A lot was happening, but there was no one single grand master plan and no ultimate goal. Nonetheless, the narration was extremely tight and gripping.
By contrast, Wings of Liberty has a single goal, foreshadowed after Mission 1 and dragging on until Mission 26. We have one single, boring perspective on a single, boring man doing boring stuff that has no relevance, until he's visited by the plot and taken by the hand to finish the game.
Let's run another quick comparison. A typical SC1/BW mission would take, say, one hour? One and a half? Assuming a 'normal', random customer, not an RTS expert. Some Broodwar missions may even take more than that. By comparison, the typical Wings of Liberty mission is maybe 20 minutes, with a few ones taking 30 or 40 minutes. So, very roughly, the ~30 missions of Wings of Liberty take just as long as 10 typical missions taken from SC1/BW! But while those ten missions would keep you intensely engaged, often on the same world for several missions, and all the while leading up to the finale, where the entire weight of the past is brought to bear on the player, the WoL missions jerk you from location to location every 20 minutes, with no time to really start caring about any one of them. In more cynical words, rather than maturing with the audience and building more complex missions and narratives, Blizzard chose to target the current generation of teenagers and cater for a dramatically reduced attention span. At the end of the WoL campaign, a lot of time has passed on the clock, but we don't really remember how and why, and thus we helplessly ask for more.
Art from adversity
Let me close this with an observation that has been made elsewhere and many times before: The concept of "art from adversity" - difficult circumstances make for good art. At the time of SC1/BW, technology was limited, so we got talking heads for briefings and extra story development during the missions. And that turned out great! It kept the pace up and the missions interesting (without requiring every mission to have a special kind of gimmick). Now, with infinite computing power, we get long briefing scenes on the ship, but do those really improve the narrative? The little ingame story events have disappeared, in any case.
Also, the original game had to break into a non-existent market, so they had to put all the campaigns into it. As a result, we have 10 well-paced, tightly focused missions for each faction, and again the result was great. Now, with the laurels from millions of fans and the guaranteed sales, Blizzard didn't have any pressure to convince or please anyone. I honestly believe that the statement "We need 26 missions for the full epicness of the Terran campaign" was an outright fabrication! As I said above, 6-10 missions would have been totally sufficient for the Terrans, and none of the other missions matter! So again, the temptation to be able to sell three games rather than one, and the liberty to be able to do so, made the result worse.
Perhaps the opening cutscene of Wings of Liberty was a good giveaway of what to expect: We spend long, drawn-out minutes on watching in the greatest detail some technical design, but in the end the entire cutscene only had one very small point of content. Very polished, with massive attention to detail, and no content. Just like the entire game.
Let's just end this in a quick test: What do you feel when you think about StarCraft and Broodwar? If the answer is "nothing in particular", the by all means disregard what people have to say here, close this window and enjoy the game. If the answer was something to the extent of a warm tingling with great memories and epic moments, then please answer question 2: Which was your most memorable moment in Wings of Liberty?
10/10 Would read again!
I still believe there are some problems with the story. But as you said, if they executed better it might have not been an issue.
And I will answer your question: most memorable was in the mission In Utter Darkness. It felt suitably epic to me and Artanis' sudden appearance and little speech punctuated that mission. It was really nice to see that noob again and got himself a brand new ride and some armor, no more loincloth!
I thought it was a very poorly crafted story as well. the missions were fun no doubt but i found the storytelling in sc1 and bw superior even in their simplistic way of telling them. oh and the cinematics, they all somehow felt... uninteresting compared to the stuff on sc1.
i hate that they made it all warcrafty and about profecies that don't make sense and magical relics that somehow nobody knew about before and it gave me deja vu's constantly specially on the protoss part, I hardly remember the w3 story but can anyone confirm to me that the final battle on the protoss part is identical to something in warcraft3? because it really did fell like i had seen something exactly like that.
What I don't understand is how the best story they could come up with is a blatant copy+paste of Warcraft 3's story. I mean, inspiration is one thing, but ripping-off is another. It's only the first campaign and we're already seeing strong signs of how it's gonna turn out.
The Burning Legion Hybrids led by Sargeras the Dark Voice are coming to unmake everything the Titans Xel'Naga created, and we have no choice but to work together since the orcs zerg aren't really that evil and were just enslaved. Don't worry though, because Thrall Kerrigan will free them and give us the hope we need.
The potential of SC2's storytelling is great, but they didn't pull it off well at all. SC1 and WC3 may be primitive, but Blizzard did an excellent job of working with what they had. The BW intro still trounces over any WoL cinematic, and the Overmind's opening speech alone beats out anything Kerrigan said in WoL.
In addition, I also don't take kindly to how all the characters got retconned or derailed in SC2:
SC1 Raynor: Infuriated by Kerrigan's murderous spree and swearing to kill her over Fenix's death. SC2 Raynor: Lovesick drunk who only cares to save Kerrigan and completely forgets about Fenix.
SC1 Kerrigan: Sinister villain who relies heavily on cunning and manipulation rather than brute strength. SC2 Kerrigan: Generic villain who relies on brute strength, and has absolutely no role other than being a walking plot device.
SC1 Zeratul: Warrior poet with a sophisticated yet still down-to-earth manner of speaking who maintains a powerful aura of mystery, intelligence, and power. SC2 Zeratul: Wispy old man who slooooooooowly speaks in pointless riddles, horribly cliched dialogue over prophecies and hope, and constantly speaks to himself over the most obvious things which make him sound senile. (I mean I know it's for tutorial's sake, but christ Blizzard, there IS a way to give a tutorial while still maintaining a character's personality)
SC1 Mengsk: Honorable man who gradually becomes a power-hungry dictator, but still extremely charismatic with a strong prescence. SC2 Mengsk: Nothing. Has so little role in the story he might as well not exist. Just take every mention of "Mengsk" and replace it with "evil bad guy" and you pretty much keep everything intact.
I hate retcons precisely for this reason. Even if they don't cripple the story, they end up making it a lot less engaging because there's really nothing fans can get attached to since they can just get rewritten entirely by the next game/novel, especially since the character changes have either no explanation or a very shallow one. They teach story consistency in writing class for a reason.
On August 12 2010 09:38 DrainX wrote: I like the story so far in SC2. We have to remember that this is just the first part of three. Many of the stories are just a build up for the second two campaigns. You can't judge it alone. If you saw the first third of any movie then of course the story would suck. It is incomplete.
Well... this game SHOULD at least have enough content to be standalone. You don't break a movie into 3 parts and not expect people to criticise the lack of context. "This is only 1/3 of the full story" is NOT a valid excuse. WoL SHOULDN'T be 1/3 of the movie... it SHOULD be the first of 3 movies.
The Burning Legion / Hybrids led by Sargeras / the Dark Voice are coming to unmake everything the Titans / Xel'Naga created, and we have no choice but to work together since the orcs / zerg aren't really that evil and were just enslaved. Don't worry though, because Thrall / Kerrigan will free them and give us the hope we need.
Also, the connection between the Dark Voice and the Zerg is so very similar to the Burning Legion and the Scourge. The Scourge/Zerg turn out to be tools of the Burning Legion/Dark Voice to kill another race(s) before its arrival.
The mission Utter Darkness is a rip-off of the last mission of warcraft 3 as well, the Zerg fighting as subordinates along the Hybrids against the final stand of the Protoss to destroy all life in the galaxy, just like the Scourge fought as subordinates along the Burning Legion against the final stand of the Alliance to destroy all life in the world.
Something else, didn't Warcraft 3 start with a prophecy about the end-of-the-world and coming-of-big-bad just like WoL?
Wow, whiners convention. 95% of these things can be explained in game, and some remain a mystery to be revealed in the next two games (as it should be).
sorry mate i didnt read your entire post couse im in work but i agree, i feel there so much of Activision :x Missions were so simaliar and kind of boring. I really enjoyed only Zeratuls part of game that was fun and cinematics awesome. and that part with combinating Zergs and Protoss ? i hate that race as much as teranns :D I can say i like it only becouse i like SC and gameplay, story was fine but nothing really new. lazy blizzard :D
On August 11 2010 23:39 -Archangel- wrote:We know that Mengsk and Duran are working together.
This was never explain during WoL, nor even hinted at. In fact Duran never appeared at all, which I felt was disappointing as he should have played a larger role.
The only mission that contained anything like this would be the secret mission where there's a science facility with Zerg / Protoss hybrids and Matt comments that this is beyond Terran technology.
We know that Duran is working for the Dark Voice and that he is behind the Hybrids.
It was explained in the secret mission in Broodwars that he was making hybrids.
We also know that Hybrids need the Queen of Blades dead to rule the Zerg and defeat all the rest.
This could have been explained better by Zeratul, for example claiming that with Kerrigan dead the Hybrids were able to control the leaderless Zerg.
Won't turning her into a human have the same effect as killing her as she's no longer able to control the Zerg?
So Tycus reporting on Raynor's movements is not an issue. Once Hybrids get control of Zerg Terrans will be wiped out anyways. Only thing important is killing Kerrigan. That is why Tycus tries to talk to Raynor multiple times about killing her and in the end tries to do it himself. We are not sure how he was planning to celebrate his freedom after he killed her there as there was no way to come out of that alive.
If Tycus' only mission is to kill Kerrigan and he plans to use Raynor to do this then it would make sense that he doesn't want to stop Raynor.
If we assume that Tycus doesn't know that killing Kerrigan will allow the Hybrids to control the Zerg then he could believe that he'll live after killing Kerrigan. I wish Tycus had tried to convince Raynor by claiming that killing Kerrigan would weaken the Zerg and allow the Terrans to defeat them (whether he's misinformed or lying is largely irrelevent).
As for Raynor not doing something about Tycus before the last scene that is a bit strange but can be explained by him being a big softy (which he is :D) and waiting for signs of betrayal.
Makes sense.
As for Raynor boarding the Dominion fleet flagship, that was a stupid move but we know Valerian didn't really want him dead so they probably let him board.
Valerian could of hailed Raynor and talked to him. Lowing his shields, making Raynor fight to get to him, and the hoping Raynor wouldn't kill him or hold him hostage was just stupid.
Assault on Char is not that strange, they didn't come there to defeat the Zerg, and many of the Zerg forces are attacking the Terran planets. They also probably came as a surprise for Kerrigan and then in a bold move sabotaged a huge part of her swarm in that area. In the last mission we still see that they cannot survive, but only hold on for a while (until the artifact fully charges).
Also attacking Char would cause Kerrigan to withdraw her forces from Terran planets and bring them back to Char.
Mengsk being like that in the game is not much different then Mengsk after he comes into power in SC1 and in BW. He basically gives proclamations and does nothing of import (Raynor and Protoss does the most).
As for not getting to finish Mengsk off, well I guess we need Mengsk for the next two parts of the story.
The way Mengsk reacted to the audio tapes was just ridiculous. He could have claimed they were fake as Raynor had no evidence they were real and he had the media portray Raynor as a terrorist. Instead he threw a hissy fit.
Also Raynor forgets / omits that the Confederacy also used Psi emitters to lure Zerg to other planets before Mensk used them on Tarsonis.
[/QUOTE]For those wanting a really serious game those news casts kind of stand out. For me personally they were as funny as any good trash movie (I guess you need to know how to appreciate a good trash movie). [/QUOTE]
The problem with the newscasts is why did Mensk allow them to keep criticising him and promote Raynor. Also why did they keep going live to Kate when she never said what the anchor and possibly the station wanted her to say? A good trash movie does not make good propaganda.
The ending with Kerrigan being saved is what is needed to stop what Overmind saw. If they killed her then the next two parts of the story would have been pointless.
True but if she's no longer a Zerg and can't control the Zerg she's as good as dead. I hope that in part 2 the Dark Voice reveals that having Raynor use the artefact to turn Kerrigan human was part of its plan to remove a threat.
The only question that stand is how is Valerian connected with Duran as we know Duran is pretending to be the head scientist of Moebius Foundation while Valerian is the owner/leader.
Again Duran didn't appear when it would of been relevant for him to. Also is Duran working for both Valerian's Moebius Foundation and Mensk's Dominion? If so why hasn't anyone noticed he's working for both of them?
One question what was Kerrigan doing between Broodwars and Wings of Liberty? It was mentioned she withdrew most of her forced to Char but didn't explain why, what she was doing, or why she started attacking the Terrans?
Personally I felt that the story left a lot to be desired. Most of the missions seemed designed to show you how to use each unit but because most were timed missions you rarely got to learn how to use these units as part of a group.
Also the story was too disjointed and the choices you made had limited effect on the game. You could either get ghost or spectres (only identical units), fight an air force or nydus worms in the last level, and what you did on Haven didn't affect anything.
I feel that the story would have been better paced in the following format:
1) The first part involves you taking mercenary contracts for money, attacking Dominion outposts for supplies and new units, and helping outlying planets rebel against the Dominion. This would be an introduction to WoL.
2) The second part occurs once you've gotten several outlying planets supporting you. You mainly look for artefact pieces (high paying mercenary contract), protecting your outlying planets from the Zerg attacks (the Dominion won't defend rebels), destroying bases on Dominion worlds to weaken Dominion and steal their technology, and learning about Zeratul's prophecy. The main purpose of this campaign is to build up the forces needed to challenge Mensk.
3) The last part occurs after you've gotten all the artefact pieces. Valerian offers you a lot of money to defeat Kerrigan on Char and more support to help defeat Mensk. Raynor decides to use his forces to attack Char instead of Mensk to protect outlying worlds from the Zerg, who are his main supporters (he can't protect them and fight the Dominion), and to save Kerrigan.
4) In the next game the Dark Voice reveal that using the artefact / killing Kerrigan was part of it's plan to take control of the Zerg.
If Kerrigan is normal now, who will control the zerg? Will she still be able to control them? If not, does this mean that the universe will get raped by the Xel'Naga? A cliché ending indeed, but we still have two more chapters, Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void. Am I really the only one here who's wondering how in the hell they will stop the Xel'Naga without Kerrigan controlling the Zerg? Assuming she is not able to control them in her current state of course.
And also, will the UED return? What are the Protoss up to? Will the Overmind be revived again? Where the hell is Duran? There's a lot more unanswered questions...how can some of you even talk about this as if it's the end?
And about Raynor "suddenly" wanting to save Kerrigan instead of killing her as he said in BW after Fenix' death, he obviously didn't know she COULD be saved. That's where the artifact comes in. Valerian offered Raynor the chance to save her, and he accepted the offer because he still loves Kerrigan, and knows that Infested Kerrigan is not Sarah Kerrigan.
On August 12 2010 22:03 Zexion wrote: In my opinion, it was a very interesting ending.
If Kerrigan is normal now, who will control the zerg? Will she still be able to control them? If not, does this mean that the universe will get raped by the Xel'Naga? A cliché ending indeed, but we still have two more chapters, Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void. Am I really the only one here who's wondering how in the hell they will stop the Xel'Naga without Kerrigan controlling the Zerg? Assuming she is not able to control them in her current state of course.
And also, will the UED return? What are the Protoss up to? Will the Overmind be revived again? Where the hell is Duran? How can some of you even talk about this as if it's the end?
And about Raynor "suddenly" wanting to save Kerrigan instead of killing her as he said in BW after Fenix' death, he obviously didn't know she COULD be saved. That's where the artifact comes in. Valerian offered Raynor the chance to save her, and he accepted the offer because he still loves Kerrigan, and knows that Infested Kerrigan is not Sarah Kerrigan.
We don't talk about it like it's the end, we talk about how bad the writing/execution is.
Oh, and Blizzard has confirmed that Kerrigan is the main character of HoS, controlling the Zerg, and you are going to be out expanding her powers in an RPG-like fashion.
On August 04 2010 12:04 Necrosjef wrote: Agree with most of your points about the campaign storyline. But I'm going to be honest with you here. I'd rather Blizzard spent time and effort on making the MP better and just never made a campaign at all.
I'd rather had blizzard throw out a killer single player than attempt to best BW in multiplayer and push for "esports".
Anyways, I agree about the story... just finished the campaign and I feel there were alot of backstories, but not enough time to flesh them out. I also think the ending was kinda meh; the whole time, I was thinking: hey, they're gonna turn kerrigan back... wait nah, that'll be too obvious and too perfect. And then, it actually happened.
By the way, does someone wanna tell me who the dead guy in the blue armor named koltzier was?
No way. Multiplayer balance>Single Player. But I think Blizzard deserves to give us both!
Oh, and Blizzard has confirmed that Kerrigan is the main character of HoS, controlling the Zerg, and you are going to be out expanding her powers in an RPG-like fashion.
Honestly at this point I really hope that no longer applies. Having her deinfested so she can willingly be reinfested to lead a good Zerg swarm, is just incredibly lame. That's only my opinion of course but what I would like is to see the Zerg campaign as an Hybrid and take it over, it would be better then Kerrigan RPG on so many levels.
On August 12 2010 21:27 uanime5 wrote: This was never explain during WoL, nor even hinted at. In fact Duran never appeared at all, which I felt was disappointing as he should have played a larger role.
The only mission that contained anything like this would be the secret mission where there's a science facility with Zerg / Protoss hybrids and Matt comments that this is beyond Terran technology.
Duran did appear, but not as Duran. He was the Narud, the Moebius scientist that asks you for help in one of the missions. He does play a large role but not in the open as Raynor would not openly work with him. He uses Valerian and Tycus to get Raynor to collect the artifacts and in the end turn Kerrigan into a vulnerable human form.
The secret mission is all you need to put 1+1 together. It is pretty clear what is happening.
It was explained in the secret mission in Broodwars that he was making hybrids.
Exactly, that is how we know that he and Mengsk are working together.
This could have been explained better by Zeratul, for example claiming that with Kerrigan dead the Hybrids were able to control the leaderless Zerg.
Won't turning her into a human have the same effect as killing her as she's no longer able to control the Zerg?
Lol? This was as clear as it needed to be at the end of the 3rd protoss mission in the game. Really, did they need to put it in bold red letters for you?!
We do not know what is the exact effect of turning her into the human. This is one of those 5% of mysteries that I said were left for the next two games.
If Tycus' only mission is to kill Kerrigan and he plans to use Raynor to do this then it would make sense that he doesn't want to stop Raynor.
If we assume that Tycus doesn't know that killing Kerrigan will allow the Hybrids to control the Zerg then he could believe that he'll live after killing Kerrigan. I wish Tycus had tried to convince Raynor by claiming that killing Kerrigan would weaken the Zerg and allow the Terrans to defeat them (whether he's misinformed or lying is largely irrelevent).
Exactly. Killing kerrigan is the ultimate goal that he is there for, not to report Raynor's movements to Mengsk.
He cannot believe he will live after putting a bullet into a person Raynor loves in a cave where he is then alone vs Raynor and another 2-3 marines that came there together. Old friendship will only get you soo far, I do not think killing your friend's lover saves you... Tycus did try to convince Raynor to kill Kerrigan on multiple occasions on the ship, maybe you didn't talk to him between all missions.
Valerian could of hailed Raynor and talked to him. Lowing his shields, making Raynor fight to get to him, and the hoping Raynor wouldn't kill him or hold him hostage was just stupid.
Hailing Raynor might not have had the same effect. Proposing what he proposed might not worked with half the bridge listening. If you remember after Raynor said they are going to Char to save Kerrigan almost half the crew mutinied. I am not sure Raynor would have been able to say YES over the comm. Also letting Raynor kill his guards might have been a kind of a test. If Raynor could not get through his guards how would he get to Kerrigan?! As for Valerian risking Raynor killing him, well he brought half the Dominion fleet for what is a suicide mission, risking playing on Raynors feelings for Sarah Kerrigan was normal :D Valerian reminds me a lot of Mengsk before Mengsk started using tactics like Psi Emitters to use Zerg to slaughter whole planets.
Also attacking Char would cause Kerrigan to withdraw her forces from Terran planets and bring them back to Char.
Which is what happens. You can still listen to news between mission on Char and they say Zerg started retreating for some reason.
The way Mengsk reacted to the audio tapes was just ridiculous. He could have claimed they were fake as Raynor had no evidence they were real and he had the media portray Raynor as a terrorist. Instead he threw a hissy fit.
Also Raynor forgets / omits that the Confederacy also used Psi emitters to lure Zerg to other planets before Mensk used them on Tarsonis.
The audio was taken from the Adjutant. Maybe in that world those things cannot be faked. Even today there are systems to make sure that what is sent from one side is the original. So maybe this audio was packed in an official Confederacy adjutant encryption that cannot be faked. Only possible fake would have been adjutant faking the audio herself which is probably not part of her programming. Why people jump to conclusions without taking 1 minute to think for themselves I cannot understand. Seriously people, not everything needs to be written out for you, I know Hollywood movies made you all SOFT and expecting things being served on a silver platter but sometimes you NEED to use your brains as well.
The problem with the newscasts is why did Mensk allow them to keep criticising him and promote Raynor. Also why did they keep going live to Kate when she never said what the anchor and possibly the station wanted her to say? A good trash movie does not make good propaganda.
The newscasts were supposed to be a light humor and that is all. They also reminded me a bit of the movie Starship Troopers and their news. Why is everyone so hang up on if a news reported lost her job or not. It really plays no part in the whole story. Maybe her parents are really rich and powerful and Mengsk does not want to make them his enemies?!
True but if she's no longer a Zerg and can't control the Zerg she's as good as dead. I hope that in part 2 the Dark Voice reveals that having Raynor use the artefact to turn Kerrigan human was part of its plan to remove a threat.
We do not know what she is now. That will be revealed in the next game.
Again Duran didn't appear when it would of been relevant for him to. Also is Duran working for both Valerian's Moebius Foundation and Mensk's Dominion? If so why hasn't anyone noticed he's working for both of them?
I answered you about Duran in the beginning. I think they are more likely working for Duran (knowingly or not).
One question what was Kerrigan doing between Broodwars and Wings of Liberty? It was mentioned she withdrew most of her forced to Char but didn't explain why, what she was doing, or why she started attacking the Terrans?
It was explained. She was looking for answers about Xel'Naga same as Zeratur and prepairing for what is coming. The 3 Zeratur missions are memories of the time within those 4 years. She attacked the Terrans as a diversion, she was after the same artifacts as Raynor and Mengsk.
Personally I felt that the story left a lot to be desired. Most of the missions seemed designed to show you how to use each unit but because most were timed missions you rarely got to learn how to use these units as part of a group.
Missions were designed to be different from standard RTS and to prepare you for MP which is fast and does not stand for turtling.
Also the story was too disjointed and the choices you made had limited effect on the game. You could either get ghost or spectres (only identical units), fight an air force or nydus worms in the last level, and what you did on Haven didn't affect anything.
Which is more choice then any other RTS out there or even games like Mass Effect 2. I really do not understand what you people were expecting from this game?! Please tell me one RTS that gave more meaningful choice then SC2 or that had a better story then SC2 (SC1 does not count :D).
I feel that the story would have been better paced in the following format:
1) The first part involves you taking mercenary contracts for money, attacking Dominion outposts for supplies and new units, and helping outlying planets rebel against the Dominion. This would be an introduction to WoL.
2) The second part occurs once you've gotten several outlying planets supporting you. You mainly look for artefact pieces (high paying mercenary contract), protecting your outlying planets from the Zerg attacks (the Dominion won't defend rebels), destroying bases on Dominion worlds to weaken Dominion and steal their technology, and learning about Zeratul's prophecy. The main purpose of this campaign is to build up the forces needed to challenge Mensk.
3) The last part occurs after you've gotten all the artefact pieces. Valerian offers you a lot of money to defeat Kerrigan on Char and more support to help defeat Mensk. Raynor decides to use his forces to attack Char instead of Mensk to protect outlying worlds from the Zerg, who are his main supporters (he can't protect them and fight the Dominion), and to save Kerrigan.
4) In the next game the Dark Voice reveal that using the artefact / killing Kerrigan was part of it's plan to take control of the Zerg.
I am certain Blizzard will discover your talent very soon and give you job as their story writter
Summarize all what i felt about the single player campaign also. Its not bad, but the story itself felt childish and amateur. Raynor is a question mark, in SC1 he had much more personality and seemed a real person. Now its like they tried to turn him into a hollywood star of SC1 (hell, whe he was bald it was wayy cooler), with one line effect dialogues.
The face expressions are not that good also, its like we get the same face when hes angry and when hes happy.
The good thing for me was the ending, it surprized me and make me want to see wich direction HoS will follow.
Camon Blizzard, you can do a much, much better storyline. You have the money and can pay the best ppl to do this job. Dont make us think the storyline decisions are made by ppl that dont are expert in making stories.
On August 12 2010 11:51 Spawkuring wrote: The Burning Legion Hybrids led by Sargeras the Dark Voice are coming to unmake everything the Titans Xel'Naga created, and we have no choice but to work together since the orcs zerg aren't really that evil and were just enslaved. Don't worry though, because Thrall Kerrigan will free them and give us the hope we need.
The potential of SC2's storytelling is great, but they didn't pull it off well at all. SC1 and WC3 may be primitive, but Blizzard did an excellent job of working with what they had. The BW intro still trounces over any WoL cinematic, and the Overmind's opening speech alone beats out anything Kerrigan said in WoL.
In addition, I also don't take kindly to how all the characters got retconned or derailed in SC2:
SC1 Raynor: Infuriated by Kerrigan's murderous spree and swearing to kill her over Fenix's death. SC2 Raynor: Lovesick drunk who only cares to save Kerrigan and completely forgets about Fenix.
SC1 Kerrigan: Sinister villain who relies heavily on cunning and manipulation rather than brute strength. SC2 Kerrigan: Generic villain who relies on brute strength, and has absolutely no role other than being a walking plot device.
SC1 Zeratul: Warrior poet with a sophisticated yet still down-to-earth manner of speaking who maintains a powerful aura of mystery, intelligence, and power. SC2 Zeratul: Wispy old man who slooooooooowly speaks in pointless riddles, horribly cliched dialogue over prophecies and hope, and constantly speaks to himself over the most obvious things which make him sound senile. (I mean I know it's for tutorial's sake, but christ Blizzard, there IS a way to give a tutorial while still maintaining a character's personality)
SC1 Mengsk: Honorable man who gradually becomes a power-hungry dictator, but still extremely charismatic with a strong prescence. SC2 Mengsk: Nothing. Has so little role in the story he might as well not exist. Just take every mention of "Mengsk" and replace it with "evil bad guy" and you pretty much keep everything intact.
Agreed with everything you said too. Gee, the person in charge of SC1 story is different than the person of SC2?
@danieldrsa: I have tried my best to explain all the "plot whole" that people endlessly QQ about.
It is all logical if you take a minute to think about it and inform yourself about the background for all this. You can read Starcraft novels or read wiki sources.
On August 13 2010 01:39 -Archangel- wrote:Duran did appear, but not as Duran. He was the Narud, the Moebius scientist that asks you for help in one of the missions. He does play a large role but not in the open as Raynor would not openly work with him. He uses Valerian and Tycus to get Raynor to collect the artifacts and in the end turn Kerrigan into a vulnerable human form.
Duran appears in one mission looking very different from Brood Wars so it's understandable that I missed him. Did he possess another person's body?
The secret mission is all you need to put 1+1 together. It is pretty clear what is happening.
Nothing was explained in the secret mission, other than Mensk has a research lab with Zerg, Protoss, and Hybrids.
Would you care to elaborate on what this mission explains.
It was explained in the secret mission in Broodwars that he was making hybrids.
Exactly, that is how we know that he and Mengsk are working together.
In SC1 the Confederacy had a lab experimenting with Zergs but that didn't mean they were working with the Zergs or breeding them. Given that Duran was breeding Hybrids whereas Mensk was trying to clone them it's possible that Mensk is either working with someone else, or Mensk found some of Duran's technology and experiments and is trying to figure out how to use them.
This could have been explained better by Zeratul, for example claiming that with Kerrigan dead the Hybrids were able to control the leaderless Zerg.
Lol? This was as clear as it needed to be at the end of the 3rd protoss mission in the game. Really, did they need to put it in bold red letters for you?!
Subtitles would have helped. It's hard to understand what the Protoss are saying. The lack of detail makes it hard to understand as both the Hybrid and the Protoss say Kerrigan is important but they don't elaborate on why she's important. Are the Hybrids supposed to be more aggressive or effective leaders of Zerg?
Tycus did try to convince Raynor to kill Kerrigan on multiple occasions on the ship, maybe you didn't talk to him between all missions.
I did talk to Tycus but he doesn't offer any real justification for killing Kerrigan, when there were plenty of things he could have said.
Which is what happens. You can still listen to news between mission on Char and they say Zerg started retreating for some reason.
For me that broadcast occurred before I went to Char. I think it was after I stopped Kerrigan getting to the buildings. Kate said the Zerg were retreating so they'd either got what they wanted or had given up. On Char the news broadcast said the male anchor had been committed to an asylum after being found naked in a zoo with some peanut butter and Mensk's autobiography.
The audio was taken from the Adjutant. Maybe in that world those things cannot be faked. Even today there are systems to make sure that what is sent from one side is the original. So maybe this audio was packed in an official Confederacy adjutant encryption that cannot be faked. Only possible fake would have been adjutant faking the audio herself which is probably not part of her programming.
Raynor broadcast what the Adjutant said on Dominion broadcasts, so the Adjutant was nothing more than a giant tape recorder and any encryptions would be useless. Mensk could have easily have claimed that it was fake.
Even if they uploaded the whole Adjutant somehow Mensk could have claimed that it had been tampered with.
Even if they uploaded the whole Adjutant and it was impossible to tamper with it Mensk could have claimed that it was made by someone pretending to be him.
Why people jump to conclusions without taking 1 minute to think for themselves I cannot understand. Seriously people, not everything needs to be written out for you, I know Hollywood movies made you all SOFT and expecting things being served on a silver platter but sometimes you NEED to use your brains as well.
Sounds like someone is whining because I pointed out a major plot hole and you don't know how to dismiss it.
If something is unclear it's the writer's fault for not explaining it clearly, not the person's fault for not understanding it. A good story explains the plot to the viewer, rather than forces them to write in the missing parts. It's also the writer's fault for making poor plots, plot holes, and having people act out of character for the sake of the story.
Also what Raynor did to Mensk is a classic example of how Hollywood quickly wraps things up by convicting the villain with minimal evidence.
The newscasts were supposed to be a light humor and that is all. They also reminded me a bit of the movie Starship Troopers and their news. Why is everyone so hang up on if a news reported lost her job or not. It really plays no part in the whole story. Maybe her parents are really rich and powerful and Mengsk does not want to make them his enemies?!
Light humour doesn't work when it seems contrary to what the game is trying to tell you. Mensk is supposed to be using propaganda against Raynor to discredit him but the new reports directly and repeatedly contradict this. A "children's cartoon" or satirical show that provided humour while clearly undermining Mensk would have been far better.
Also the story was too disjointed and the choices you made had limited effect on the game. You could either get ghost or spectres (only identical units), fight an air force or nydus worms in the last level, and what you did on Haven didn't affect anything.
Which is more choice then any other RTS out there or even games like Mass Effect 2. I really do not understand what you people were expecting from this game?! Please tell me one RTS that gave more meaningful choice then SC2 or that had a better story then SC2 (SC1 does not count :D).
A meaningless choice is the same as having no choice. The only choice that made any real difference was which part of the Zerg army to cripple (which itself was similar to a UED mission against the Dominion).
Spellforce had much more meaningful choices as you could choose what abilities and equipment your heroes had.
Though RTS are generally so linear that they have no meaningful choices.
It is nice to see people finding these "plot holes" because of the endless discussions. I think Archangel has explained everything very well. Most of it, if not all, makes sense to me.
I have a feeling that HotS will make us all go "WTF just happened?!"
On August 13 2010 01:39 -Archangel- wrote:Duran did appear, but not as Duran. He was the Narud, the Moebius scientist that asks you for help in one of the missions. He does play a large role but not in the open as Raynor would not openly work with him. He uses Valerian and Tycus to get Raynor to collect the artifacts and in the end turn Kerrigan into a vulnerable human form.
Duran appears in one mission looking very different from Brood Wars so it's understandable that I missed him. Did he possess another person's body?
Since in the meantime I informed myself better about the nature of Duran, I would say, yes the Dark Voice decided to use another vessel for his goals and Blizzard decided to call that character Narud to give us the players a clue. What happened to body of one called Duran is probably unimportant.
The secret mission is all you need to put 1+1 together. It is pretty clear what is happening.
Nothing was explained in the secret mission, other than Mensk has a research lab with Zerg, Protoss, and Hybrids.
Would you care to elaborate on what this mission explains.
That is enough. We only know of Duran being the one to experiment with trying to create Hybrids so this is obviously connected. Duran needed to get resources and materials for this, and Mengsk is not above doing stuff like this to further his goals.
It was explained in the secret mission in Broodwars that he was making hybrids.
Exactly, that is how we know that he and Mengsk are working together.
In SC1 the Confederacy had a lab experimenting with Zergs but that didn't mean they were working with the Zergs or breeding them. Given that Duran was breeding Hybrids whereas Mensk was trying to clone them it's possible that Mensk is either working with someone else, or Mensk found some of Duran's technology and experiments and is trying to figure out how to use them.
There is a big difference between Zergs and Hybrids. That lab in Sc1 was supposed to show us that Confederacy knew about the existence of Zerg before they invaded Sara system. Duran was breeding hybrids? Duran was trying to combine Zerg and Protoss DNA into one creature. I am sure cloning is a faster process once successful then breeding. Or they can replicate themselves once successful.
Lol? This was as clear as it needed to be at the end of the 3rd protoss mission in the game. Really, did they need to put it in bold red letters for you?!
This could have been explained better by Zeratul, for example claiming that with Kerrigan dead the Hybrids were able to control the leaderless Zerg.
Subtitles would have helped. It's hard to understand what the Protoss are saying. The lack of detail makes it hard to understand as both the Hybrid and the Protoss say Kerrigan is important but they don't elaborate on why she's important. Are the Hybrids supposed to be more aggressive or effective leaders of Zerg?
I am not a native english speaker and I understood it well enough. Even too well because until this game I thought this Dark Voice was actually trying to complete the Xel'Naga cycle (like the sole Reaper left in the galaxy in Mass Effect to open the doorway for other Reapers), not stop it so I was confused for a while. Kerrigan is important because unlike Overmind she has a free will and is not consumed by a need to destroy Protoss (and stop the cycle by doing so) while also being able to control all Zerg as the Overmind did.
Which is what happens. You can still listen to news between mission on Char and they say Zerg started retreating for some reason.
For me that broadcast occurred before I went to Char. I think it was after I stopped Kerrigan getting to the buildings. Kate said the Zerg were retreating so they'd either got what they wanted or had given up. On Char the news broadcast said the male anchor had been committed to an asylum after being found naked in a zoo with some peanut butter and Mensk's autobiography.
I might have made a mistake on that. I thought it played after you came to Char but even if it was just before it still does not mean the forces came back in time. Still it also means nothing as it is clear Terrans can only win if they live long enough to charge the artifact and use it. All the QQ about how they are able to attack the planet are just that (QQ).
The audio was taken from the Adjutant. Maybe in that world those things cannot be faked. Even today there are systems to make sure that what is sent from one side is the original. So maybe this audio was packed in an official Confederacy adjutant encryption that cannot be faked. Only possible fake would have been adjutant faking the audio herself which is probably not part of her programming.
Raynor broadcast what the Adjutant said on Dominion broadcasts, so the Adjutant was nothing more than a giant tape recorder and any encryptions would be useless. Mensk could have easily have claimed that it was fake.
Even if they uploaded the whole Adjutant somehow Mensk could have claimed that it had been tampered with.
Even if they uploaded the whole Adjutant and it was impossible to tamper with it Mensk could have claimed that it was made by someone pretending to be him.
We do not know what they sent exactly. But since it provoked the people to open rebellion (which was probably already brewing since Mengsk was not that loved) it must have been something more then an easily faked audio. If the audio was encrypted (adjutant is a military technology) and I am sure it was somehow it would also have a timestamp and info on its locations. It is really hard to fake that. All 3 of your suggestion fall into the water. And maybe afterwards he did claim those things, just not at that moment. All people can snap if put into the right circumstances and I guess those were Mengsk's.
Why people jump to conclusions without taking 1 minute to think for themselves I cannot understand. Seriously people, not everything needs to be written out for you, I know Hollywood movies made you all SOFT and expecting things being served on a silver platter but sometimes you NEED to use your brains as well.
Sounds like someone is whining because I pointed out a major plot hole and you don't know how to dismiss it.
If something is unclear it's the writer's fault for not explaining it clearly, not the person's fault for not understanding it. A good story explains the plot to the viewer, rather than forces them to write in the missing parts. It's also the writer's fault for making poor plots, plot holes, and having people act out of character for the sake of the story.
Also what Raynor did to Mensk is a classic example of how Hollywood quickly wraps things up by convicting the villain with minimal evidence.
Please share with me this "plot hole" because I will easily plug it just like I plugged all the rest.
Maybe you would like to share this theory of yours about writers fault with lets says George R.R. Martin because his stories are full of events and details that you need to figure out yourself (or by discussing with others) or for instance the more latter example would be movie Inception that is certainly not going to answer all the questions for you.
What did they exactly convict Mengsk of? Stop talking in riddles (and I do not read minds).
The newscasts were supposed to be a light humor and that is all. They also reminded me a bit of the movie Starship Troopers and their news. Why is everyone so hang up on if a news reported lost her job or not. It really plays no part in the whole story. Maybe her parents are really rich and powerful and Mengsk does not want to make them his enemies?!
Light humour doesn't work when it seems contrary to what the game is trying to tell you. Mensk is supposed to be using propaganda against Raynor to discredit him but the new reports directly and repeatedly contradict this. A "children's cartoon" or satirical show that provided humour while clearly undermining Mensk would have been far better.
The game is full of light humor. From "We are taking terrible... terrible damage" to "It is dead Jim" and the descriptions of units in the Armory and many other situations. The newscasts are just more obvious ones. Personally it didn't bother me, and I am not sure how many people it really did bother. Vocal QQs are usually the minority.
Which is more choice then any other RTS out there or even games like Mass Effect 2. I really do not understand what you people were expecting from this game?! Please tell me one RTS that gave more meaningful choice then SC2 or that had a better story then SC2 (SC1 does not count :D).
Also the story was too disjointed and the choices you made had limited effect on the game. You could either get ghost or spectres (only identical units), fight an air force or nydus worms in the last level, and what you did on Haven didn't affect anything.
A meaningless choice is the same as having no choice. The only choice that made any real difference was which part of the Zerg army to cripple (which itself was similar to a UED mission against the Dominion).
Spellforce had much more meaningful choices as you could choose what abilities and equipment your heroes had.
Though RTS are generally so linear that they have no meaningful choices.
You choices in those few missions affect not only units but what happens to those characters. Does Tosh die or not? Does doctor survive or not? And what you fight in the last mission. Maybe YOU didn't care about these characters but I did.
Spellforce was more an RPG then RTS. But collecting experience and items in that game was not different then deciding what unit upgrades you wanted and what you wanted to research through getting Zerg and Toss points, it was just presented in a different way. I do not remember Spellforce actually having branching storylines, not even the level of SC2.
And I agree with your last sentence, people cannot really expect the same kind of story from RTS that gave them games like Baldur's Gate 2 or Dragon Age or The Witcher. Before Starcraft 1 any story that was more then a filler for killing AI in the missions was unheard of. Starcraft 2 continued that and brought us more realistic NPCs whose fate we could directly decide. I call that better and progress.
I mean Raynor was no longer bald... That... what are you thinking!! ANd a drunk... Dissapoint... So plastic feeling, everything, so plastic feeling. SC1 felt real.
In addition, I also don't take kindly to how all the characters got retconned or derailed in SC2:
SC1 Raynor: Infuriated by Kerrigan's murderous spree and swearing to kill her over Fenix's death. SC2 Raynor: Lovesick drunk who only cares to save Kerrigan and completely forgets about Fenix.
SC1 Kerrigan: Sinister villain who relies heavily on cunning and manipulation rather than brute strength. SC2 Kerrigan: Generic villain who relies on brute strength, and has absolutely no role other than being a walking plot device.
SC1 Zeratul: Warrior poet with a sophisticated yet still down-to-earth manner of speaking who maintains a powerful aura of mystery, intelligence, and power. SC2 Zeratul: Wispy old man who slooooooooowly speaks in pointless riddles, horribly cliched dialogue over prophecies and hope, and constantly speaks to himself over the most obvious things which make him sound senile. (I mean I know it's for tutorial's sake, but christ Blizzard, there IS a way to give a tutorial while still maintaining a character's personality)
SC1 Mengsk: Honorable man who gradually becomes a power-hungry dictator, but still extremely charismatic with a strong prescence. SC2 Mengsk: Nothing. Has so little role in the story he might as well not exist. Just take every mention of "Mengsk" and replace it with "evil bad guy" and you pretty much keep everything intact.
I hate retcons precisely for this reason. Even if they don't cripple the story, they end up making it a lot less engaging because there's really nothing fans can get attached to since they can just get rewritten entirely by the next game/novel, especially since the character changes have either no explanation or a very shallow one. They teach story consistency in writing class for a reason.
This, and the ops post really highlight many problems with the campaign that I didn't realize, and imo they aren't too bad on first playthrough, but if you look at the time, money and hype blizzard put into the campaign, it's dissapointing they let the storyline slip so much.
It wouldn't be such an issue if bnet 2.0 was fully featured and perfect, but it's barely functioning and if the campaign is going to have lasting value, storyline is 90% of that.
On August 12 2010 19:05 -Archangel- wrote: Wow, whiners convention. 95% of these things can be explained in game, and some remain a mystery to be revealed in the next two games (as it should be).
I've now read several of your posts, and I'm under the impression that you're annoyed that people don't understand or take to heart your arguments and keep complaining. I'm following your explanations, and I'm sure that you can make sense of most of the backstory.
But do you really think that everybody would be having a better experience of the campaign if they understood the story as well as you've explained it? Is the lack of clarity of what's really going on and who's really pulling the strings the only obstacle that prevents people from enjoying the campaign? I tried to give an argument in my earlier post why I think there's more wrong with the campaign than the backstory, and that the real reason that people complain is simply because ultimately they weren't satisfied.
Please don't just dismiss us as "whiners". Do you not think that some valid arguments have been made here why the narrative in the campaign is handled poorly? There is no sense of satisfaction at the end because the plot is so badly executed that there is very little build-up, and almost no pay-off for the long mid-section of the campaign. Sure, I also wanted to colonists to succeed, but was it really helpful to bring that little episode into the greater narrative? What point did it serve?
In the end, even if all the 'plotholes' and the weaknesses of the backstory are sufficiently explained, the narrative of the campaign becomes no tighter and no more focused. The problem with the ending is not that we are missing the next two campaigns, but the fact that we didn't work to deserve the ending! It was just given to us after we had milled around for twenty missions on unrelated errands. Some people are asking "Where's the rest?", not because they didn't understand the campaign, but because they didn't feel like they had contributed anything!
You did an excellent job at clarifying many of the story points. But please don't get annoyed that some of us still find the campaign lacking, and please don't dismiss us as "whiners". Thank you!
all you people picking on plot holes and all you trying to fill them should consider that pretty much every story will have questionable things, the difference is that when a story is good and solid enough people won't start looking at things that they don't like. it's only when the story is weak when people want to try to explain why they didn't like the story and consequently finding plot holes, inconsistencies, etc.
I also made a rule for myself after the LOST fiasco, if you at any point start wondering about the WRITERS intentions instead of just enjoying the story then that means the story is bad and doesn't deserve you energy.
I'm disgusted by how video game review sites such as Gamespot gave this game 9.5/10. Of course, the gameplay is unquestionably fun, both in single and multi player, the map editor has potential and the music is awesome, but how the hell did Blizzard manage to shit the bed so badly with the storyline? When you build up SO much hype, only to deliver B-Movie quality dialogue and plotlines, something is wrong with your writing staff. Admittingly, not all games need an excellent storyline to succeed, but with such emphasis on giving the player interaction with the Hyperion's crew, you think they'd revaluate the authenticity of each character! As someone mentioned a page earlier, the amount of retconning is abhorrent. Raynor forgets how important Fenix was to him, Kerrigan's distinct lack of cunning or any remotely interesting characteristics, Mengsk being portrayed as an oblivious fool, and then of course, Zeratul.
Jake Ritschell would roll over in his grave if he saw what Zeratul has become.
The story is really my only disapointment in the Starcraft 2 experience.
The whole story just feels terribly cliched and b-movie-ish.
I mean come on, the ending is the hero walking into the sunset whilst carrying his love interest/damsel in distress which he just rescued. Give me a god damn break.
I hope Blizzard hires new writing staff for the 2 expansions, cause this was pretty pathetic.
I just wanna emphasise that everything else about Starcraft 2 is perfect IMO. They absolutely nailed the single player RTS gameplay, with the upgrades and interesting gameplay mechanics during the missions. Story is the only problem.
about the media blitz thing, everyone should think about it.
We all know that the Queen of Blades hates Mengsk (for obvious reasons), and will probably kill him soon enough. Mengsk knowing this, will probably do all he can to save himself from death. Mengsk knows Raynor is "attached" to Kerrigan and would do anything to save her. That being said, Mengsk knows that if anyone can get near Kerrigan, that would be Raynor, so he sends out Tychus as a spy and eventually kill Kerrigan.
Now back to Media Blitz, for arguments sake, Mengsk knows that Tychus is in the odin, but why would he let Tychus blow his cover right? If Mengsk wants any chance to get rid of Kerrigan, he needs to leave Tychus alone and let him do his dirty work with the Raiders, if Mengsk prepared for the assault, then that would blow Tychus' cover and eventually prevent him from killing Kerrigan. It was basically a gamble, he'd rather risk losing power, than a chance to kill Kerrigan.
On August 12 2010 11:51 Spawkuring wrote: What I don't understand is how the best story they could come up with is a blatant copy+paste of Warcraft 3's story. I mean, inspiration is one thing, but ripping-off is another. It's only the first campaign and we're already seeing strong signs of how it's gonna turn out.
The Burning Legion Hybrids led by Sargeras the Dark Voice are coming to unmake everything the Titans Xel'Naga created, and we have no choice but to work together since the orcs zerg aren't really that evil and were just enslaved. Don't worry though, because Thrall Kerrigan will free them and give us the hope we need.
The potential of SC2's storytelling is great, but they didn't pull it off well at all. SC1 and WC3 may be primitive, but Blizzard did an excellent job of working with what they had. The BW intro still trounces over any WoL cinematic, and the Overmind's opening speech alone beats out anything Kerrigan said in WoL.
In addition, I also don't take kindly to how all the characters got retconned or derailed in SC2:
SC1 Raynor: Infuriated by Kerrigan's murderous spree and swearing to kill her over Fenix's death. SC2 Raynor: Lovesick drunk who only cares to save Kerrigan and completely forgets about Fenix.
SC1 Kerrigan: Sinister villain who relies heavily on cunning and manipulation rather than brute strength. SC2 Kerrigan: Generic villain who relies on brute strength, and has absolutely no role other than being a walking plot device.
SC1 Zeratul: Warrior poet with a sophisticated yet still down-to-earth manner of speaking who maintains a powerful aura of mystery, intelligence, and power. SC2 Zeratul: Wispy old man who slooooooooowly speaks in pointless riddles, horribly cliched dialogue over prophecies and hope, and constantly speaks to himself over the most obvious things which make him sound senile. (I mean I know it's for tutorial's sake, but christ Blizzard, there IS a way to give a tutorial while still maintaining a character's personality)
SC1 Mengsk: Honorable man who gradually becomes a power-hungry dictator, but still extremely charismatic with a strong prescence. SC2 Mengsk: Nothing. Has so little role in the story he might as well not exist. Just take every mention of "Mengsk" and replace it with "evil bad guy" and you pretty much keep everything intact.
I hate retcons precisely for this reason. Even if they don't cripple the story, they end up making it a lot less engaging because there's really nothing fans can get attached to since they can just get rewritten entirely by the next game/novel, especially since the character changes have either no explanation or a very shallow one. They teach story consistency in writing class for a reason.
A user called Mattrex posted a very interesting analysis of the problems of the storytelling on the Battle.net forums, especially about the two mission choices. In summary: The choices you make don't affect the future, as choices do in real life, but rather the past reality of the fact. Example: Save the colonists -> there never was a serious infection in the first place. Incinerate the colony -> the doctor had been infected all along.
Edit 2. A very thorough write-up of problems with the story, focusing on giving references from the original manual and the SC1/BW: Extensive retconning greatly weakens story, on the US Battle.net forums.
I must say, i enjoyed the campaign but also became gradually disappointed. I'm not gonna call this a bad game or so but i really hope Heart of the swarm will have a much darker story.
complaints: first of all: the cheesy storyline - i'm fanboy enough to not nag about where blizzard is taking all the main characters (except 1, see next), but they really did it pretty bad (i could compare it with all the cheesy storylines of those no-story movie blockbusters) and i was constantly annoyed by it. (It felt like the target audience of this game are 12 year olds, maybe it is, but that's a shame)
second: kerrigan, WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?! She appears in every decent villain list and now they're gonna make her a good girl? If she's not incredibly bad ass in heart of the swarm this is gonna suck so hard it's gonna hurt. (maybe she'll turn up in 'crappiest villain' lists) I could smell it incoming from miles away but i was sure that was just to create some tension, wrong
choices: it's cool they put it in but i could've lived without it, especially if that would've given us a better story
rendered cutscenes: they are still inferior to the prerendered ones and i have a feeling there are less prerendered cutscenes than in sc1, which again is a shame, because blizzard is superb in cinematics imo
good stuff in general, i did like the mission objectives and mission events and all the extra stuff you don't get in multi
conclusion the single player 'framework' is good, but the story is still in beta :s
This was about as good as 1/3 of a game can be. Once all 3 parts are out maybe this will make sense but for right now, this storyline has been killed. If this was an attempt at a cliffhanger, it failed. If this was an attempt at finishing the storyline off, it failed. If this was an attempt to foreshadow things, it failed. Not to mention the failure of the plan to turn it into an esport, and overall balance failure. I won't go into any more detail as there's literally tens of thousands of posts that all say it already. Why some people think this is a perfect game, I have no idea.
The ending of the brood war and the beginning of SCII are not well connected.
There is no real character development worth mentioning. Raynor feels like a different person compare to his SCI counterpart. Mengsk is portrayed as your average generic dictator.
How the fuck did the Tal'darim get hold of Stalker, dark templar, Colossus, voidray and motherships? Aren't they supposed to be Protoss exiles?
There is no explanation regarding what the hell happened during the 10 year period between brood war and this war. Why didn't Kerrigan unleash her entire swarm upon the weaken factions at the end of brood war? I was extremely disappointed when no explanation was offered in the campaign.
Tychus' death was also too abrupt. There should have been more foreshadowing, like a secret communication with Mengsk right before the final battle. I don't know how Mengsk junior figured out how an ancient artifact is supposed to cure infestation. Wouldn't it have been more interesting if it came out as a surprise? Mengsk junior also received minimal development, like everybody else in this story. He seemed more like a plot device, a mean of providing half of the dominion fleet, rather than a solid character.
My complaints go on and on. Let's get it straight. SCII's storyline is something an average person with decent imagination can write out in a week. SCI was more full of twists, developments and resemble something that can be called epic.
And wtf is with the space cowboy theme? I know that Raynor was kinda like that back in SCI, but he wasn't full of cliche cowboy lines out of a random movie. It was fun at first, but I started hating it after a while. It made Raynor more generic.
The only part I did like about the campaign is that it's pretty fun on Brutal.
On August 16 2010 06:25 FindingPride wrote: i loved it. u guys are over reacting.
I don't think we are. This isn't a sequel of a two year old game. We waited 12 years for this. SCI set the standard and the fans had high expectations. I played starcraft and watched it on television when I was like 7 or 8. It was the very first video game I ever came into contact with. After all the hype and the promise of a single player that would blow our minds, it failed. The missions are fun on brutal, yes, but the storyline sucked and failed all of my expectations.
That being said, it just feels like WoL took place in a whole new universe aside from SC1 and BW. The differences is in the story telling. I love that blizzard is trying to make a better story telling experience, and usually this would be better, but that is certainly not the case this time.
SC1/BW felt like everything was constantly leading to some sort of endgame, some sort of overarching goal. In WoL, it feels much more like Jimmy Raynor and Co.'s Adventures in Space. There was never any sense of "the galaxy is riding on me" or "hey, I just set up the queen bitch of the univserse." No, instead the story and the like seemed more akin to something I would have seen on a saturday morning cartoon years ago.
WoL was an utter disappointment. There were good parts to it. I loved unlocking new research so I could read the new report on the crystal and the chrysalis. But not many.
In short: Unless the story changes up a great deal (which I highly doubt), I am just going to pretend WoL never happened, and there was nos story follow up to BW.
EDIT: Also, does anyone feel that the protoss missions and the very last terran mission were the only ones that actually advanced the SC story in any way? As a whole I mean, Tychus and Jimmy having a hissy does not exactly change the fate of the universe I would thing.
I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this, there were parts of the campaign that were fantastic, and other parts that fell short.
The first couple of missions were about as good as they could get for that early in the game. We were introduced to all the new characters, got a little back story, good intro to the gameplay for new players. But after you board the Hyperion the story just stalled. There were about 15 missions in the middle that could have been completely cut and nobody would care about the parts of the story you missed. All that happened with the five artifact missions was the Protoss always saying "This land is sacred! blah blah" You stealing the artifact and then "we got to get out of here fast" repeat x5. You had 5 missions with the doctor that were all together useless. the 5 missions with Tosh had no impact on any part of the story, and almost nothing happened with Mengsk (something I was really looking forward too). The Zeratul missions were pretty decent, even if they did retcon a bunch of stuff that happened in Starcraft.
Finally we get to the end, which was actually pretty good but could have gone better. The entire assault on Char consisted of only 3 missions, I think if they spread it to 5 it would not only feel more epic, but also eliminate the sudden end to the game. I think something like this could have worked better.
1. You have to break through the outer defenses to land on the planet, you land on a space platform in orbit and lure the zerg there with a psi disruptor and then blow the station, leaving you an opening to land. 2. Hyperion is under attack by the remaining perimeter defenses, this goes exactly like the cinematic when you first get there, the first mission remains unchanged. 3. You are under heavy fire and are losing your foothold, Selendis comes in with a protoss fleet to help push back the zerg, in this mission you control both protoss and terran. 4. same choice mission as before 5. same final mission
Obviously I am not a professional writer, but I think something similar could have been done to make the assault feel a little more epic.
I wouldn't, however, change any of the gameplay elements, the missions were all really fun to play with some great twists to traditional RTS games, I just think they could of wrapped a better story around those missions.
The game suffers from trying to be non-linear. I never truly understood why linear games are bad, non-linear works in certain genres like RPG's, but with an RTS there is literally no point in having choice between the missions, because ultimately the whole game will suffer because most of the missions you do are just filler.
Reason: the thread's theme is being indirectly repeated in newer threads such as "[D] Why is the Terran Race so strong in Single P?", "Ending cinimatic (spoiler)", etc.
You know, it's funny, my only complaint about the campaign was cheesy dialogue.
I didn't mind 'filler' missions at all. They were fun and worked with the story. Especially if you do a run through as being a white knight, or a gritty bastard. Hell, even if you do the missions you get a chance for character decisions at the end of each of the two filler arcs. Also home to two of the coolest missions.
I also liked a few of the character changes. The loss of Fenix references does make me a bit sad as that was a very important moment, but I did like what was done with Raynor. The lack of focus on Mengsk makes sense as that was a very major event. There's a lot of mystery about how he got to his current power, why the Zerg left him alone, etc. Kerrigan had by far the least change, I'm not sure why anyone would complain. She stalks you, she lets you go, she teases you. All the while it's obvious that something bigger is going on. It was a great lead in for Heart of the Swarm. Is she good? Won't know until we see the rest. I doubt she is, Prophecy or not. The Zeratul complaints are odd as well. He was made to sound more like a Dark Templar and spends his entire time on camera injured from a fight with Kerrigan. I suppose everyone forgot about the impact that killing the Matriarch had on him.
There are also a few problems I've seen with people interpreting plot holes. A good one is the doctor when you do the final colonist mission. I've seen it referred to a few times (even a few posts above) as a plot hole. In both cases there certainly is an outbreak at the location you go to if you side with the Protoss to purge it. If you instead try to save the colonists you find yourself at a completely different location which is not infested and save colonists from being purged for no reason. Likewise the doctor does not lock herself up in the Hyperion and get herself infected, which happens during the mission. People seem to have selective memory when regarding plot holes.
I don't know. Maybe because the story and gameplay tied in so well and the gameplay was so fun I'm simply more able to ignore the faults of the story.
Trying to be too dramatic like a movie with small plot progression. When in fact a shitload of things happened in the SC1/Broodwar campaign with lots of conquests
I liked the campaign ...it´s scifi it´s meant to be "bad"and "cheesy" Loved all the references and all that. It wasn´t that much different from the original I don´t get all the complaining, I actually played through the SC and BW campaigns just before SC2..
where in sc2 you hear or see narud? people here keep talking about him and i didnt see him anywhere in the campaign...
PS. what i hate is the fact that zeratul shows raynor how the universe will end and that only queen of blades can save it - and what does he do? he gets rid of queen of the blades ASAP -.- makes no sense at all
On August 26 2010 01:00 CROrens wrote: where in sc2 you hear or see narud? people here keep talking about him and i didnt see him anywhere in the campaign...
Here's something quite interesting and entertaining. Some of you are probably familiar with Mr Plinkett's reviews of Star Wars. Well, some guy is blatantly imitating Mr Plinket in his multi-part review of StarCraft II! Don't be put off by the overt imitation, though, he does really make a lot of good points. There's great background info on the development process (apparently the director for the SC2 program is a former EA guy!), and Part 3 has a nice bit on why prophecies are stupid story telling devices. Have a look!
On August 04 2010 19:24 Unentschieden wrote: Well there is the fact that Blizzard ALWAYS has Heroes get corrupted, but never before do these guys and gals have to deal with their sins. Diablo? Main character, gets killed in Diablo 2 Warcraft? Arthas, gets killed in WoW. Starcraft? Kerrigan, ISN´T dead (yet).
Kerrigan is dead to me. . .
I honestly do not like the direction that the story is going and I am not sure how keen I am about having to spend time on the Hyperion again (for the Zerg campaign of all things.)
Blizzard better have something completely awesome cooked up or I will have lost every ounce of faith that I once had as a starry eyed boy. Kerrigan was a constant evil in the Starcraft saga and now she is trying to be Mary-Sue'd into becoming a good guy (or gal if you are particular.)
They didn't show the body of Tychus, (who was killed inside the main hive of char *wink wink nudge nudge,*) so it is possible that we might play as him in HOTS.
If Kerrigan is still the ruler of the Zerg I will be sick to my stomach. I really hope something comes up that does not have us playing a Terran version of my favorite character in Starcraft lore.
I definetly agree with the story part... it's pathetic. I seriously can't believe that it's so shallow and one dimensional. I mean, it's fucking BLIZZARD! Come on, what happened. From the incredible campaign of WC3 to that? Damn. Oh well, all good things must come to an end, right?
One thing I don't understand is: Why did they go for such a safe, macho, boring route of telling a story? It's SC2! Wouldn't people buy it regardless? Maybe I'm wrong. I just thought that Blizzard hade some faith in their loyal fans. And that they would deliver a story like none other told in an RTS. Shame, we didn't get that
when i saw the first previews i was already thinking WTF this isnt jim raynor
what they made out of him is a laughable comicbook superhero. they really overdid it with their blizzard-trademark buff look, he looks like a fucking super-bodybuilder
all the other characters dont look and feel at all like in the original either. the protoss are fucking space-elves now
is this a bad thing? not really, because the story for sc1 was already really shitty. face it ppl, blizz might get the settings right but the stories to their games are just a mess. anyone remember war3 expansion? this is where sc2 is going.
I agree with all the complaints about Mengsk...he never came off as the smooth talking power-hungry genius that he appeared to be in SC1.
I'm willing to hold off judgement on Kerrigan until we see what becomes of her, but one thing that i really don't like is the revelation that the Overmind didn't actually want to do some of the things that it did, and was instead forced by some outside force.
I really liked the idea that the zerg were literally an experiment that grew beyond the Xel-Naga's control, and have since become basically the Borg of the SC universe, constantly seeking to further perfect themselves and devouring all they come across. Tassadar actually praising the courage of the Overmind for attempting to find a potential way out of what it was being focred to do (Kerrigan) was to much for me
I gotta agree about the muscle part, I was just watching a cinematic and noticed how Raynor's arm is larger than my thigh, and I am a 2 meter tall fat guy.
I have recently read the Dark Templar trilogy, and it sheds a lot of light on the event's of SCII, also I have read "Heaven's Devils" which also helps, but to think that you must buy 4 books to be able to properly understand a video game is not alright imo.
What you learn in the books are the origins of the Tal'darim, more about the prophecy, and in the book "Heaven's Devils" you learn more about Raynor's past and his relationship with Tychus, there may be more things that I missed but you get the point.
On September 05 2010 18:16 hack41 wrote: Here's something quite interesting and entertaining. Some of you are probably familiar with Mr Plinkett's reviews of Star Wars. Well, some guy is blatantly imitating Mr Plinket in his multi-part review of StarCraft II! Don't be put off by the overt imitation, though, he does really make a lot of good points. There's great background info on the development process (apparently the director for the SC2 program is a former EA guy!), and Part 3 has a nice bit on why prophecies are stupid story telling devices. Have a look!
haha thanks for this, I really liked part 3 as it mirrors a lot of how I felt (although the space balls clip was really getting tiring at the end haha). I think his story idea for how it should've played out would've been a whole lot better than what it is now.
The part where Chris Metzen says starcraft "is really about a boy and a girl at the end of the day" has made me lose all hope for this thing to turn around.
Having just played through it, I didn't feel the plot was that bad. It wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't bad.
The first thing we have to keep in mind is how little of a story writers actually had to work with. Apart from mission briefs and a few animated cut scenes there really wasn't much. We essentially had a time-line of events within the missions and dialogue so brief that only the most basic character-building took place. Much of what we enjoyed of the SC1 storyline is based on the Starcraft Universe fans created, not necessarily Blizzard.
The first thing that jumped out at me was Raynor's love interest in Kerrigan. You know from the first campaign that they worked together, he thought she was attractive, he flirted a bit, and he violently opposed her abandonment. You have to dig really deep between the lines to find a love interest versus attraction. By the end of BW he flat-out loathes what she's become. However, you read in the SC2 manual that he had romantic intentions, but that's the first place we see it.
From that point I took the viewpoints of SC2 as canon while ignoring my take on the story from SC1. You can build character a whole lot better when you have great animations, real-time facial expressions, good voice-acting, and an interactive environment (SC1 only really had the voice actors). Raynor may have his plot holes, but he is not a stale character. Tychus on the other hand was very flat and anyone who didn't predict his treachery from the voice of Mengsk in the very first scene (right before he utters "Hell, it's about time") should have picked up on it through Raynor's unconditional trust.
On a different note, the predictability could be seen positively by game creators. I've watched a lot of film in the last few years. Most movies meant for casual audiences and pure entertainment is extremely predictable and after you've seen enough of them you can predict the movie while it's happening (my girlfriend requested I stop telling her what's going to happen in movies we're both watching for the first time together). SC2 is no exception. It isn't meant to have a vastly complex storyline; the game play has always been the hallmark of any of Blizzard's big titles. The major twists aren't hard to predict. If the trailer didn't give away Kerrigan's un-festation then Raynor's discussions with Dr. Hansen about a zerg virus cure made his intentions and ulterior motives very clear. I feel that, within the mainstream, a predictable storyline leads to further enjoyment by audience members. Why else do you think movies like Hottub Time Machine and and The Hangover make millions? It's intended for a more casual audience that doesn't want to think. I have several friends that think Borat is the pinnacle of cinema and good writing is the ending we want to happen. I also place the SC2 in the camp of those who don't want to think, but enjoy. Even though I'm defending it, I felt the plot suffered several holes that incessantly bothered me (strangely enough, showing the New Gettysburg reenactment on Tarsonis rather than a space platform was my biggest peeve), but I find solace knowing that several other points (end of the world vision, Tassadar "alive", fighting against Selendis, etc.) came as a surprise.
If you want to crucify SC2 as having a horrible story, then you need to aim your canons at SC1 as well. Let's take BW, for instance. In episode 5 Dugalle takes in Duran and gives him high commanding authority despite both him and Stukov warning him on several occasions to mind his rank (it would seem that the commanding authority would go hand in hand with strategic planning). It's very transparent that Duran is not what he seems, yet Stukov is the only one who sees it. You'd think for the leader of an intergalactic army representing Earth they'd pick a general who could at least judge character better. If anything else, you'd expect the leader NOT to order Duran to kill Stukov with the "damning" evidence of his betrayal, rather, get the second side of the story before declaring the faulty evidence as "incontrovertible". Let's also take episode 6. Kerrigan, in a weakened state after losing almost her entire army to the controlled overmind convinces Raynor, Mengsk, and Fenix to help her. She is able to play it off as a gain for both sides, but there is little mystery or surprise when she turns on them 4 missions later. And what about the very last mission? "Sorry, but all my forces are on the planet surface, we're on this space platform, and you have to defend yourself from three huge armies alone." It doesn't make a ton of sense that a so-called 'base of operations' is without adequate protection, especially considering the death of the overmind freeing up an entire planet's worth of fighters. It's clear this is a deliberate tool to fight an epic last battle, seal a victory against two armies and close the storyline of the last. I could go on picking at each of the 6 episodes, but my point is that the SC1storyline is just as transparent and full of holes as SC2.
I like the saying "It is what it is" when thinking of the SC2 storyline. The bottom line is I had a great time playing through the campaign and appreciated the story despite glaring holes the OP already pointed out. I agree that the ending is a giant cliffhanger, and I have my predictions about the next SC2 title, but until then I'm content in casually laddering, a brutal no-upgrades run, and accumulating some achievements.
To be fair, all they really did was manage to survive for about half an hour with the aid of a relic that pretty much wiped out all zerg nearby. So within their fiction, yes it makes sense
Google "Deus ex machina".
Super weapons don't count as "Making sense", or good story telling in general.
Uraj / Khalis (and to some extent the Gantrithor)
Stop acting like this xel'naga artifact is somehow worse than the magical crystals that cleared Shakuras of all zerg
On September 06 2010 15:08 Servius_Fulvius wrote: Having just played through it, I didn't feel the plot was that bad. It wasn't fantastic, but it wasn't bad.
The first thing we have to keep in mind is how little of a story writers actually had to work with. Apart from mission briefs and a few animated cut scenes there really wasn't much. We essentially had a time-line of events within the missions and dialogue so brief that only the most basic character-building took place. Much of what we enjoyed of the SC1 storyline is based on the Starcraft Universe fans created, not necessarily Blizzard.
The first thing that jumped out at me was Raynor's love interest in Kerrigan. You know from the first campaign that they worked together, he thought she was attractive, he flirted a bit, and he violently opposed her abandonment. You have to dig really deep between the lines to find a love interest versus attraction. By the end of BW he flat-out loathes what she's become. However, you read in the SC2 manual that he had romantic intentions, but that's the first place we see it.
From that point I took the viewpoints of SC2 as canon while ignoring my take on the story from SC1. You can build character a whole lot better when you have great animations, real-time facial expressions, good voice-acting, and an interactive environment (SC1 only really had the voice actors). Raynor may have his plot holes, but he is not a stale character. Tychus on the other hand was very flat and anyone who didn't predict his treachery from the voice of Mengsk in the very first scene (right before he utters "Hell, it's about time") should have picked up on it through Raynor's unconditional trust.
On a different note, the predictability could be seen positively by game creators. I've watched a lot of film in the last few years. Most movies meant for casual audiences and pure entertainment is extremely predictable and after you've seen enough of them you can predict the movie while it's happening (my girlfriend requested I stop telling her what's going to happen in movies we're both watching for the first time together). SC2 is no exception. It isn't meant to have a vastly complex storyline; the game play has always been the hallmark of any of Blizzard's big titles. The major twists aren't hard to predict. If the trailer didn't give away Kerrigan's un-festation then Raynor's discussions with Dr. Hansen about a zerg virus cure made his intentions and ulterior motives very clear. I feel that, within the mainstream, a predictable storyline leads to further enjoyment by audience members. Why else do you think movies like Hottub Time Machine and and The Hangover make millions? It's intended for a more casual audience that doesn't want to think. I have several friends that think Borat is the pinnacle of cinema and good writing is the ending we want to happen. I also place the SC2 in the camp of those who don't want to think, but enjoy. Even though I'm defending it, I felt the plot suffered several holes that incessantly bothered me (strangely enough, showing the New Gettysburg reenactment on Tarsonis rather than a space platform was my biggest peeve), but I find solace knowing that several other points (end of the world vision, Tassadar "alive", fighting against Selendis, etc.) came as a surprise.
If you want to crucify SC2 as having a horrible story, then you need to aim your canons at SC1 as well. Let's take BW, for instance. In episode 5 Dugalle takes in Duran and gives him high commanding authority despite both him and Stukov warning him on several occasions to mind his rank (it would seem that the commanding authority would go hand in hand with strategic planning). It's very transparent that Duran is not what he seems, yet Stukov is the only one who sees it. You'd think for the leader of an intergalactic army representing Earth they'd pick a general who could at least judge character better. If anything else, you'd expect the leader NOT to order Duran to kill Stukov with the "damning" evidence of his betrayal, rather, get the second side of the story before declaring the faulty evidence as "incontrovertible". Let's also take episode 6. Kerrigan, in a weakened state after losing almost her entire army to the controlled overmind convinces Raynor, Mengsk, and Fenix to help her. She is able to play it off as a gain for both sides, but there is little mystery or surprise when she turns on them 4 missions later. And what about the very last mission? "Sorry, but all my forces are on the planet surface, we're on this space platform, and you have to defend yourself from three huge armies alone." It doesn't make a ton of sense that a so-called 'base of operations' is without adequate protection, especially considering the death of the overmind freeing up an entire planet's worth of fighters. It's clear this is a deliberate tool to fight an epic last battle, seal a victory against two armies and close the storyline of the last. I could go on picking at each of the 6 episodes, but my point is that the SC1storyline is just as transparent and full of holes as SC2.
I like the saying "It is what it is" when thinking of the SC2 storyline. The bottom line is I had a great time playing through the campaign and appreciated the story despite glaring holes the OP already pointed out. I agree that the ending is a giant cliffhanger, and I have my predictions about the next SC2 title, but until then I'm content in casually laddering, a brutal no-upgrades run, and accumulating some achievements.
But do you SEE people poking at SC's story's shortcomings?
No.
It is because it had something to counter it, some underlying quality, those simple moving images that had this mixture of monologue/dialogue do in fact convey the drama better than the much more expensive 3D cutscenes we see in SCII.
And if I wanted a brain dead game I would go play Hello Kitty or watch some of the movies you mentioned, this game should keep the standards of it's predecessor.
Also one small thing, Dugalle sent Duran to capture Stukov, Duran killing him was a betrayal.
On September 06 2010 14:01 strongwind wrote: The part where Chris Metzen says starcraft "is really about a boy and a girl at the end of the day" has made me lose all hope for this thing to turn around.
Right. That's why the Mr Plinkett imitation is so appropriate, I found: Just like George Lucas doesn't understand Star Wars (hence the millions of drawn-out, emotionless lightsabre duels, "Star Wars? Yeah, that's the one about lightsabres, right?"), Chris Metzen doesn't understand StarCraft ("StarCraft? Yeah, that's the one about a boy and a girl, right?"). This is a truly shocking realisation. Just because someone created something great in the past apparently does not mean that they understood why it was great, and probably would have fucked it up if they had had the same technological freedom and power of control as they have now.
On September 06 2010 15:08 Servius_Fulvius wrote: If you want to crucify SC2 as having a horrible story, then you need to aim your canons at SC1 as well.
I don't actually want to crucify SC2 for its story. I know others do, and you may be justified to do so, but I think that's missing a much bigger problem that's right in front of us: I want to crucify SC2's campaign for being awfully written, terribly narrated and lazily designed. I posted a longer explanation of this earlier, but to summarise: The narrative had no build-up towards its conclusion; the pacing was terrible; the player's investment in the story does not pay off at the end, when the solution is handed to you out of nowhere; the introduction of ancient prophecies and alien artifacts ruins the audience's ability to relate to the events and care for them; the non-linear structure distracts from the ultimate goal and has no pay-off; the choices aren't choices (they change the past, not the future), etc. etc.
And don't nobody say "you've only seen one third so far". Nonsense. After the first campaign of SC1, I was excited and thrilled. The story was very well told and kept me interested all along, and all the campaign built up to the conclusion. I was loving it, and that's why I wanted to play another campaign. SC2/WoL had me feel empty and baffled at the end. (Where did all my time go? Was I fighting for this all the time?) Are you saying that if I play more of this it'll suddenly get good?
Same for novels and extended universe. Don't nobody throw arguments like "You can't criticise it without having read the books" in my face! I call bullshit on that. The reason that some fiction franchises have extended universes is because the original piece was good. The original Star Wars was good, so people want to read more about it. An extended universe does not develop to justify or improve a crappy film or game retrospectively! "You didn't like Howard the Duck? How dare you say that, have you read all the novels that show you how great it is?"
Sorry, going off-topic here...
On September 06 2010 15:08 Servius_Fulvius wrote: I like the saying "It is what it is" when thinking of the SC2 storyline.
Well, if you liked it, good for you. But as has been pointed better out elsewhere: If you are being served shit and you are grateful for it, you will be getting served more shit. It is blindingly obvious that the media industries are trying to get away with as little effort as they can while still raking in profits. I think everyone here appreciates how well most of the game is designed and how great a game it is, but the point of this thread is to express that Blizzard did a poor job writing the campaign, that we had expected a lot better and that lots of us would be very unhappy if Blizzard were to consider good writing as an expendable extra.
Not trolling but honestly I preferred Warcraft 3 to SC2 - and I loved the original SC but the storytelling in SC2 wasn't as well done. I never 'felt like I was travelling the galaxy' - it's all on the ship, there's like one cutscene with it going in to hyperdrive :/ I could've been playing a simulator on the ship for all I know! :/
Also can't believe what they did to Kerrigan at the end?! I thought for SURE that ending would be at the 3'rd game not the first of 3!
On September 06 2010 19:34 hack41 wrote: [...]but the point of this thread is to express that Blizzard did a poor job writing the campaign, that we had expected a lot better and that lots of us would be very unhappy if Blizzard were to consider good writing as an expendable extra.
Now THAT I agree with! I personally feel that the SC2 campaign was written like the BW campaign. I argued earlier that the BW campaign wasn't done very well from a story-telling aspect. Feel free to agree or disagree, but either way it ends with the SC2 campaign story needing better execution. I will also note that I didn't feel as personally connected to the story despite the graphics package conveying the character buildup a lot better. In SC1 you played a commander, executor, or cerebrate being ordered around by the main characters. In SC2 you played Raynor, but he still did his own thing anyway.
I think the story of SC2 tried to take on too much. I think it could have been better if an animation sequence and more dialogue took place between the main characters and those suffering under Mengsk's rule. The point of the rebellion just seemed like an effort to oust a corrupt leader the main characters didn't like instead of an effort to rid a tyrant that is more harm to the general public than good (could be explained better by those suffering under his rule, which I suppose is the point of the Dr. Hansen story-line, but that turned into a love interest/zerg virus cure tangent). However, fully explaining and providing enough opportunities for the player to grasp the point of the rebellion would take on some extra work. Combine that with all the little aspects that could have made each story arc better and it adds up to a ton of extra content that may be too much.
i intend to play through the campaign a second time on a self-imposed 'challenge run'. I'll see if I feel differently after seeing the story fresh for a second time.
I agree with both of the well-written and thought-out posts below. It is regretfully sad to compare the quality of the dialogue, the overall story and depth of the characters between SC1 and SC2.
In addition, I also don't take kindly to how all the characters got retconned or derailed in SC2:
SC1 Raynor: Infuriated by Kerrigan's murderous spree and swearing to kill her over Fenix's death. SC2 Raynor: Lovesick drunk who only cares to save Kerrigan and completely forgets about Fenix.
SC1 Kerrigan: Sinister villain who relies heavily on cunning and manipulation rather than brute strength. SC2 Kerrigan: Generic villain who relies on brute strength, and has absolutely no role other than being a walking plot device.
SC1 Zeratul: Warrior poet with a sophisticated yet still down-to-earth manner of speaking who maintains a powerful aura of mystery, intelligence, and power. SC2 Zeratul: Wispy old man who slooooooooowly speaks in pointless riddles, horribly cliched dialogue over prophecies and hope, and constantly speaks to himself over the most obvious things which make him sound senile. (I mean I know it's for tutorial's sake, but christ Blizzard, there IS a way to give a tutorial while still maintaining a character's personality)
SC1 Mengsk: Honorable man who gradually becomes a power-hungry dictator, but still extremely charismatic with a strong prescence. SC2 Mengsk: Nothing. Has so little role in the story he might as well not exist. Just take every mention of "Mengsk" and replace it with "evil bad guy" and you pretty much keep everything intact.
I hate retcons precisely for this reason. Even if they don't cripple the story, they end up making it a lot less engaging because there's really nothing fans can get attached to since they can just get rewritten entirely by the next game/novel, especially since the character changes have either no explanation or a very shallow one. They teach story consistency in writing class for a reason.
This, and the ops post really highlight many problems with the campaign that I didn't realize, and imo they aren't too bad on first playthrough, but if you look at the time, money and hype blizzard put into the campaign, it's dissapointing they let the storyline slip so much.
It wouldn't be such an issue if bnet 2.0 was fully featured and perfect, but it's barely functioning and if the campaign is going to have lasting value, storyline is 90% of that.
On September 06 2010 19:34 hack41 wrote: [...]but the point of this thread is to express that Blizzard did a poor job writing the campaign, that we had expected a lot better and that lots of us would be very unhappy if Blizzard were to consider good writing as an expendable extra.
Now THAT I agree with! I personally feel that the SC2 campaign was written like the BW campaign. I argued earlier that the BW campaign wasn't done very well from a story-telling aspect.
Well, perhaps we can discuss that a bit. You mentioned earlier that you found some aspects of BW implausible, but do you really think the storytelling was bad in BW? Storytelling has to keep the audience interested, engaged and entertained, first and foremost. Plausibility and consistency are important, but their lack may be forgivable if the story is well told. Similarly, a perfectly plausible and consistent story may be told in a totally boring and unsatisfying way.
So how then would you compare BW to WoL? I claim that the narrative of BW was constantly driving at something; there was always something at stake; and all parts of the game engage the player and ultimately reward her for her investment with a nice pay-off in each episode finale. Let's go through it:
In the Protoss campaign, the player is part of the failing Protoss conclave who must flee from Aiur and fight for nothing short of their survival. The campaign opens with instant tension and pressure: Run. Survive. There's a small breather as we reach Shakuras, but oh no! the Zerg have followed. The plot thickens as we meet the Dark Templar and Razhagal. There's a plot device in the form of the two crystals, but those are merely incidental to the final conclusion: The defeat of the Zerg on Shakuras, and the player is rewarded by having her Protoss be safe at last in their new home.
The Terran campaign has a very different tone, but it is told equally well. The UED arrive in the Koprulu sector. The UED fleet is an expeditionary force, they don't have detailed orders yet as they are basically a recon force that's supposed to find out what's been going on, and quell the 'uprising' of Mengsk's Dominion. In the process, they discover that they can take on the Zerg, and after a few twists involving Duran the UED succeed in subjugating the Terran Dominion (which by the way is equally unliked by the UED and by the player!) and surprisingly also in capturing the Zerg Overmind! As part of the UED chain of command, the player is intimately involved in the process of going from "find out what's going on" to achieving two major strikes, and the reward is a glorious victory celebration for the UED and a cool video for the player.
Finally, the Zerg campaign, yet again different in tone, and probably the most alien of the three -- again, much like the Zerg themselves. In the role of a rogue Cerebrate that comes under Kerrigan's control, the player is taken along through Kerrigan's mad schemes. Again there are twists and surprises, and a lot of fun (remember True Colors?), and again everything builds up perfectly to a massive final encounter with everything and everyone we have met so far. Not just a great episode finale, but also a truly deserving finish for six great episodes of StarCraft.
Sure, not everything in the story makes sense, and there are plot holes, plot devices and McGuffins, and even talk of a prophecy if you insist. But the point is that all of those are entirely incidental to the well-narrated story, which engages the player, truly makes the player feel part of what's going on and ultimately rewards her for the investment.
All of this is missing in Wings of Liberty. A lot of stuff happens, yes, but you must always ask yourself: Why should I care? Telling a story is not just getting the facts of what happened across. It's first and foremost about engaging and entertaining the audience and making them feel that their time has been well spent.
I would love to hear from you if or how you think WoL was similar to SC/BW in that respect.
On September 05 2010 18:16 hack41 wrote: Here's something quite interesting and entertaining. Some of you are probably familiar with Mr Plinkett's reviews of Star Wars. Well, some guy is blatantly imitating Mr Plinket in his multi-part review of StarCraft II! Don't be put off by the overt imitation, though, he does really make a lot of good points. There's great background info on the development process (apparently the director for the SC2 program is a former EA guy!), and Part 3 has a nice bit on why prophecies are stupid story telling devices. Have a look!
Cinematics were good; however, there was way too much filler in the missions and the rampant deus ex machina throughout the storyline was just sickening. Honestly, Blizzard should've sticked with the original formula: 10 missions a race with all 3 races.
Honestly, Blizzard's never been good at storytelling through singleplayer, they really shouldn't even implement SP in their games anymore. Just a waste of everybody's time.
I agree with everything said here, I only have one thing to say about zeratul. When he says "Friend Raynor", it's not because his vocabulary was lowered to a three year old's- It's because of the political system of the protoss. Zeratul simply calls Raynor by his proper title (Friend).
ex. Hierarch Artanis Prelate Zeratul Executor Aldaris (I think)
And then, Friend Raynor, because he's not truly a member of protoss society.Although I do agree it sounds dumb and isn't very obvious.
I only wish they kept the RPG element that they showed us in the first peak of the single player... now THAT had some promise for the story (especially if it was a continuation like mass effect)... But in 5 years they somehow weren't able to follow through
If I was 15 and lived somewhere in the south of the US I would fucking love the campaign, unfortunately I live in Europe and I'm much older. I hated the numerous cliches, the Hollywood and predictable attitude of the characters and most of all, the ridiculous ending which simply takes a dump the previous Starcraft game.
As the OP said, this is obviously not the same company that made SC:BW, D1, D2, War2 etc.
Thank god the multiplayer is a different story, even though they tried hard to make it inferior by adding a bunch of new OP units that counter each other.
On September 06 2010 19:46 Rawenkeke wrote: It's only the first installment. Personaly I wont be able to "judge" the entire campaign till the end of the Toss campaign.
Man, it seems Actiblizz's decision to split the campaign up was correct. If the campaign was crap, people could just dismiss it for being 1/3 of a game. But once they discover the entire 3 game campaign was crap, they've already spent their money.
That being said, while SC1/BW had alot of plot holes, it was much better executed, so people are less likely to criticize it.
Does anyone know how the Terran campaign ending will relate to the upcoming Zerg campaign? Blizzard promised a RPG-like (Warcraft 3 style with heroes?) campaign focusing on Kerrigan, but that doesn't seem to fit in any more. Perhaps she reverts back, gradually regaining her strength (levelling up) as she smashes her way out of the Hyperion.
Edit: Oops, there's a whole other thread about this. Never mind.
On August 04 2010 11:56 nemanja1503 wrote: I guess the first thing are the trailers. I watched them, and naturally got hyped up, and they were indeed awesome. But when I watched them I, and I suppose everyone else, thought "if the trailers are this awesome how awesome is the rest of the game. What we find out is that there, more or less, isn't anything outside those cinematic!!! And not to mention that I fucking knew that Valerian can reverse Kerrigan's condition as soon as he said "I can give you what you want most" in the trailer, they sold out their big finish, and everything else, before the start, come on!
this is why i didnt watch any trailers released in 2010 that shit was new to me haha
On September 06 2010 19:44 abrasion wrote: Not trolling but honestly I preferred Warcraft 3 to SC2 - and I loved the original SC but the storytelling in SC2 wasn't as well done. I never 'felt like I was travelling the galaxy' - it's all on the ship, there's like one cutscene with it going in to hyperdrive :/ I could've been playing a simulator on the ship for all I know! :/
Also can't believe what they did to Kerrigan at the end?! I thought for SURE that ending would be at the 3'rd game not the first of 3!
im pretty sure that the "bad guys" are now the hybrids.. not the zerg.. were gonna see some sort of switch during Hots that makes the zerg an ally of the terrans or something... we shall see haha
On September 07 2010 08:50 Creation85 wrote: I agree with everything said here, I only have one thing to say about zeratul. When he says "Friend Raynor", it's not because his vocabulary was lowered to a three year old's- It's because of the political system of the protoss. Zeratul simply calls Raynor by his proper title (Friend).
ex. Hierarch Artanis Prelate Zeratul Executor Aldaris (I think)
And then, Friend Raynor, because he's not truly a member of protoss society.Although I do agree it sounds dumb and isn't very obvious.
What annoyed me was the number of choices you had to make that had no impact on the game. It would have been far better if you only had one choice; whether to side with Kerrigan or Mensk during the invasion of Char. This way you could work with Kerrigan to destroy the Dominion's fleet and weaken Mensk's army, or help the fleet invade Char and defeat the Zerg to prevent more Zerg attacks.
Bonus points if this has an effect on the sequel as well.
On September 07 2010 08:50 Creation85 wrote: I agree with everything said here, I only have one thing to say about zeratul. When he says "Friend Raynor", it's not because his vocabulary was lowered to a three year old's- It's because of the political system of the protoss. Zeratul simply calls Raynor by his proper title (Friend).
ex. Hierarch Artanis Prelate Zeratul Executor Aldaris (I think)
And then, Friend Raynor, because he's not truly a member of protoss society.Although I do agree it sounds dumb and isn't very obvious.
They never called him something this ridiculous back in SC/BW...
On September 07 2010 08:50 Creation85 wrote: I agree with everything said here, I only have one thing to say about zeratul. When he says "Friend Raynor", it's not because his vocabulary was lowered to a three year old's- It's because of the political system of the protoss. Zeratul simply calls Raynor by his proper title (Friend).
ex. Hierarch Artanis Prelate Zeratul Executor Aldaris (I think)
And then, Friend Raynor, because he's not truly a member of protoss society.Although I do agree it sounds dumb and isn't very obvious.
All the above are cultural or military titles, like General/Admiral, which are used even in civilian circumstances once earned.
'Friend' is just something silly, and indeed he has never been called that by any other Protoss before SC2 (I think) or by Selendis/anyone else in SC2.
On September 12 2010 20:52 Dfgj wrote: 'Friend' is just something silly, and indeed he has never been called that [...] by Selendis/anyone else in SC2.
Yes, he was: by Dark Templars in "Maw of the Void" mission. So maybe it's DT's way of titling? ;>
On September 12 2010 20:52 Dfgj wrote: 'Friend' is just something silly, and indeed he has never been called that [...] by Selendis/anyone else in SC2.
Yes, he was: by Dark Templars in "Maw of the Void" mission. So maybe it's DT's way of titling? ;>
I stand corrected.
However, that does not make it sound any less ridiculous.
I just wanted to add my voice here saying, yes, the campaign story absolutely sucked.
The artifact was a cop-out that they used before. It was just even worse this time because it magically killed all zerg and nothing else. AND it de-infests kerrigan somehow. That's taking a deus ex machina and adding another one on top. Also, what happened to the secret BW mission on the N64 that we were told was cannon? De-infestation didn't happen by some magical crystal.
Raynor became pathetic. There was zero conflict around him choosing to kill her or save her. If she's still able to control the swarm after this game, I will lose absolutely all faith in Blizzard. At that point it ceases to be a believable story at all and just becomes a fairytale meant to be a happy ending for everyone.
Lastly, I'm am still holding out hope that it wasn't Mengsk ordering around Tychus. Maybe I'm in denial because it seems pretty obvious he was. BUT it would make SUCH a better story if Duran were behind him and Mobius, knowing the only way to bring about the hybrids was by killing or uninfesting Kerrigan. Then it would actually make sense WHY Tychus was helping Raynor get the artifacts.
On September 13 2010 09:56 father_mitch wrote: [...] Lastly, I'm am still holding out hope that it wasn't Mengsk ordering around Tychus. Maybe I'm in denial because it seems pretty obvious he was. BUT it would make SUCH a better story if Duran were behind him and Mobius, knowing the only way to bring about the hybrids was by killing or uninfesting Kerrigan. Then it would actually make sense WHY Tychus was helping Raynor get the artifacts.
Yeah, that was my initial reaction, too -- it would actually make sense sort of, at least within the story that WoL had established itself: Duran is making hybrids, Kerrigan has the power to stop the hybrids, Duran devises a plan to destroy Kerrigan. If we further assume that he has some knowledge of the Xel'Naga beyond that of the Terrans, then he'd be in the unique position to be able to come up with the artifact solution. Finally, there would just be so much more at stake for him that would necessitate killing Kerrigan than there is reason for Mengsk to see her dead. For Duran, going through all the convoluted plot to get a shot at Kerrigan is worthwhile and plausible. For Mengsk it hardly makes any sense.
Previous Blizzard games certainly benefited alot from keeping the characters rather vague, there wasn't alot known about them. Arthas only had to step into the throne room and murder his father and everything necessary was explained right away.
Now they practiced themselves in character drawing and miserably failed by making it a C-Movie stereotype-infested character presentation all way long. All women stereotypely beatiful. Ok, no problem with that actually. But their characters were cliche as well, especially Kerrigan... gosh this sucks. All men having an 80cm biceps. Come on. Ok, actually it might suit a science fiction doping future with lot of combat. However, their characters were some of the worst cliches ever seen.
Maybe I've been spoiled too much with extraordinarily good character drawings by reading alot of Naruto lately, but the incredibly bad one in Starcraft 2 was remarkably disappointing. They should ever start with high quality character presentation without too much stereotype or fall back to the vague and shadowy characters of earlier titles when we didn't know too much about them.
I agree so much with this. Just like in a bad movie that takes itself too seriously, i actually had to laugh at quite a few spots in the campaign because of how bad a lot of the statements were (theres actually too many to list them, but it already starts with the " lets kick this revolution into overdrive " ...not cool at all.)
Not only was the story extremely illogical, but a lot of characters have just become... well other characters entirely (raynor,mengsk, kerrigan herself,) And what really made me crack up was the speech raynor gave on char before the final mission .. it was just soooo bad though it was pobably ment to be epic.
The story is fiction anyway, so who cares what their imagination craps next. Although i like to get sucked into the story there is a limit where i remind myself it's still just a game and stop just looking for flaws in it. I liked the campaign as a whole, i would also like if it weren't so obvious about everything but it's good enough as it is.
Almost everyone I talked to thinks it was great, I thought it was really stupid. And I agree about the cinematics, there basically weren't any that we didn't see 3 years ago. Those in game engine ones don't count either.
On September 13 2010 20:56 JibJabberJab wrote: I agree so much with this. Just like in a bad movie that takes itself too seriously, i actually had to laugh at quite a few spots in the campaign because of how bad a lot of the statements were (theres actually too many to list them, but it already starts with the " lets kick this revolution into overdrive " ...not cool at all.)
Not only was the story extremely illogical, but a lot of characters have just become... well other characters entirely (raynor,mengsk, kerrigan herself,) And what really made me crack up was the speech raynor gave on char before the final mission .. it was just soooo bad though it was pobably ment to be epic.
oh well, atleast the game itself is awesome.
Yeah absolutely right, the effort invested into creating "epic" moments was so obvious that they totally failed every single time. I don't mean to insult any US citizens here but it totally reminded me of cultural aspects stereotype for US culture... flat story, overdone staging, inflating minor things to a huge firework. (US culture created some great things as well, really. That's just the impression I get from the staging of many media in US, yelling and cheering and putting serious emphasis on totally minor things)
On September 16 2010 06:24 teekesselchen wrote: Yeah absolutely right, the effort invested into creating "epic" moments was so obvious that they totally failed every single time. I don't mean to insult any US citizens here but it totally reminded me of cultural aspects stereotype for US culture... flat story, overdone staging, inflating minor things to a huge firework. (US culture created some great things as well, really. That's just the impression I get from the staging of many media in US, yelling and cheering and putting serious emphasis on totally minor things)
As a US citizen I know exactly what you're talking about.
I'm reminded of the ending to Lost... a giant ball of idiotic nonsense that explained nothing and was a huge "screw you" to people who cared about the mysteries presented during the show... but it was so perfectly polished, well-edited, scored beautifully, and so smoothly presented that it was a very enjoyable experience while first seeing it.
Then a minute afterwards, you remember "wait a minute, what about ___. and how was that even possible, and why did..." and so on, until you quickly realize you've been served a well-polished turd.
SC2's campaign was that, with less polishing on it. You have to admit the ending was kinda cool to see though with how smoothly it was presented... until a few seconds later when you realized they just ruined Kerrigan.
You are not the only one, i feel the exact same way. The campaign was too predictable since i watched the trailer... i knew how the game will end when i played the first mission...
But like a friend said to me, "you don't play starcraft 2 for the history" and that's is totally true.
A great campaign gameplay and cinematic wise, but yeah i felt the story let me down a bit. The thing i didn't like is the small scale of "Raynor's Raiders" and the small scale of the missions. Unlike Broodwar and vanilla sc, the battles weren't super significant until right near the end. As in, instead of say trying to capture the psi disrupter or something important, you just go save some colonists on a far away planet. Or instead of fighting the full might of the protoss on aiur, you just fight some insignificant protoss who noone even knew were there, on some fringe world. Hell you never even got to face off against Mengsk himself! Kind of let me down you only played as one battlecruisor full of bandits instead of something as big as say the UED.
On September 20 2010 19:22 Perscienter wrote: The Diablo 2 cinematics? Do you mean those?
Video and audio are asynchronous.
Noone cares for the protagonist, because he's weak and doesn't accomplish anything besides whining.
The protagonist frees Baal without any explanation.
The protagonist once doesn't sleep for two weeks. What?
Diablo looks like a dinosaur.
The lesser evils cooperate with Diablo and noone knows why.
Diablo is slain. But what happens to his soulstone?
etc...
Well said, but that doesn't explain Artha... I mean Kerrigan being turned human again. All of the corny cutscenes were fine for me but that last part. Ugh. Im not even going to play the next campaign, just going to watch the leaked cutscenes on youtube or something. No more wasting time with single player.
For me, the campaign was great. I loved every moment of it and I am still replaying some missions. I do notice the flaws here and there, but it is a game. Blizzard cannot possibly satisfy the entire gaming community around the world. And for the most part, many people's complaints seem to be minor issues - semantics. For example:
1) I think the biggest issue is that many people got way too hyped for SC2. Everyone heard it was coming, 'OMG'. Everyone watched trailers, 'OOOMMMMGGGG!'. Everyone waited for the game with its annoying postponing, 'FCK!!!'. That is a lot of time to get excited in, not too mention it is the sequel to the most popular RTS ever. So, maybe some people are disappointed merely for placing way too much pressure on the game. Too much expectation, basically.
2) You mention and complain about a number of things (some small and others bigger) in the game's events and characters, but a lot of these you should experience like film. Not everything is shown and explained. Maybe Mengsk was counting on Raynor's attacks to continue gaining support from his civilians. The more damage Raynor caused, the more people would hate him. Also, if Mengsk or the Network had killed or silenced Kate Lockwell, it might have created a lot of suspicion among the population. Anyway, the point is there might be and probably are quite a few issues, but some of them might be unexplained for a reason, only to be revealed later (there are 3 parts so who knows?). I agree that there are a lot of holes etc, but give the game credit, it did what it tried to do really well, better than most games.
3) Lastly, the ending. I liked it. Also, the word 'ending' should be used lightly since a lot can still happen in the next two parts. The other issue is, looking at the SC history, story and setup, there really was no alternative. Kill one of the greatest villains of all time? Remove her? Keep her infested, being one of the strongest individuals in the galaxy? None of these work as well as saving her. Redemption was the only way. You may be pissed off with the ending, but I think doing anything else with such an important character might piss off a lot more people. Once again, I'm no narrative expert, just sharing my thoughts.
Ultimately I think it was expecting too much from the game that disappointed gamers. Again, it was impossible for Blizzard to please everybody. In the end, you have to decide whether the game was fun or not. For me, it was and still is IMMENSE fun. And that is the point of a game. To be entertained.
guys need to chill, no one's even played the campaign yet. we all have 1/3 of it so far and everyone knows that in a good story, the most/best stuff happens at the end.
I still liked the campaign a lot. The protoss storylines got me a lot more interested, and I read into all of the lore about the Xel'Naga/etc. I wanted to cry during the last protoss mission where the entire race falls.
but as for the main storyline, yeah, I didn't like it. I was like "Seriously? You're turning Kerrigan back into a human?" the Queen of Blades was so awesome... they ruined it.
also, there wasn't enough closure with the Mengsk storyline.
And I totally agree on the "too many filler missions" complaint.
On September 20 2010 19:22 Perscienter wrote: The Diablo 2 cinematics? Do you mean those?
Video and audio are asynchronous.
Noone cares for the protagonist, because he's weak and doesn't accomplish anything besides whining.
The protagonist frees Baal without any explanation.
The protagonist once doesn't sleep for two weeks. What?
Diablo looks like a dinosaur.
The lesser evils cooperate with Diablo and noone knows why.
Diablo is slain. But what happens to his soulstone?
etc...
Are you serious?
1) uhh...my audio and video were fine, I've never noticed any problems. And I've played on many different computers.
2) In D2 we don't get the typical "knight in shining armor" protagonist. Instead, we get a regular guy that's caught in the middle of PURE HELL happening around him. He acts accordingly. Personally I consider this one of the story's greatest strengths.
3) When you're scared to death and you don't know who to trust, you do some pretty strange things. I don't think any of his actions were that hard to understand.
4) Diablo looks like a dinosaur..........is this a serious argument?
5) The High Heavens and the Burning Hells have been warring for eons, why is this confusing?
6) At the end of the game it clearly shows Diablo and Mephisto's soulstones being destroyed at the Hellforge.
Well, I expected the same atmosphere as in SC1. Kerrigan taunting her enemies with non-empty threats before killing them, characters who act in an understable way, and more generally a story about which you could think and try to go into the details. When I try to think a little deeper about the story, like I did in SC and Warcraft 3, there are mostly, well, holes. Tychus who pwns Mengsk with the Media Blitz was in fact working for Mengsk? The Overmind was forced to kill the Protoss even though all SC briefings showed he did that willingly? A random prophecy that promises you the end of the universe if you don't do what's written in the script? All in all, I'd go with teekesselchen. They tried to be epic, but they tried too hard, so the result is... I don't know, disappointing.
I'm not saying the overall story is "bad" in the strictest sense, it would make an honest plot for your average sci-fi movie. But IMO it is much worse than Starcraft 1 or Warcraft 3.
I don't want to agree with the "too big expectations" argument. Games have had far better plots in the past and adding shiny surface to the games is no excuse for ignoring the actual story content. During the last 15 years the game developers have been handed the technology to really improve storytelling, but there has been hardly any actual progress since the late 90s games. Right now we've got cool 3D animation everywhere, but nothing under the surface.
On September 20 2010 20:56 Mordred666 wrote: [...] it is a game. Blizzard cannot possibly satisfy the entire gaming community around the world. And for the most part, many people's complaints seem to be minor issues - semantics.
I really don't see how you can come to that conclusion. The complaints aren't minor at all. The biggest problem with WoL is its extremely poor storytelling, compounded by bad writing. The execution of the entire plot was lazy and incoherent, and completely fails to feel rewarding for the player. There is no build-up to the final conclusion, and there's little that we as the players can really care about, because hardly anything that we do in the course of the campaign is relevant or has any effect on the outcome. That's not a minor issue, that's a total failure to deliver a story!
That has little to do with expectations, either -- the whole thing is just really badly delivered. If anything, expectations are the only reason we even discuss this sucker! If this were a fresh franchise, I doubt anyone would even bother to comment on the story. It'd just be forgotten right there and then.
On September 20 2010 20:56 Mordred666 wrote: 2) You mention and complain about a number of things (some small and others bigger) in the game's events and characters, but a lot of these you should experience like film.
You can't be serious! Like a film?? The only thing that makes this game good is the fun gameplay! You want to take that away and only leave the horrible plot? Just think about this for one minute: You would end up with a long sequence of unrelated events where nothing is connected to anything else and a final solution is handed down to the protagonist fifteen minutes before the end. Can you honestly say that this would make a good film? It doesn't even make a film by any standard! It'd just be a clip show of outtakes.
OK, here's another take on the whole thing that I thought of the other day. Did you notice how lots of the game was engineered to serve a certain prescription? It feels like a lot of the game is literally "bolted on" to tick certain boxes. My first example is the achievement system. To me it seems painfully obvious that the creators were aware of the fact that the single-player campaign does not feel rewarding, and that for all the 29 missions' worth, the player never really feels like she's achieving anything. So they just said, "hey, let's spell it out literally that there are things to be achieved!"
The next thing is the choice system. It was already discussed earlier, but the choices aren't real choices, because they don't change the future, but rather the past! There's nothing about them that resembles a choice in real life, and whatever you do it turns out to have been the right thing. So again, someone must have said, "hey, non-linearity is the New Thing", and they bolted that on.
Then there's the mission where the infested only attack at night. "Hey, zombies are the latest rage!" *bolt* *bolt*
Well, it just feels like they made a big list of Popular Things, and then they just crafted some game element to tick off that list without any thought about forming a coherent story. :-(
PS Did you see Part 4 of the SC2 review? It's hard to feel any kind of liking for Chris Metzen after this...
Well said Hack, good thing they didn't bolt any Vampires to the game :-P
Omw to check the new part of the review, I talked to the creator and gave him some ideas, and a link to this thread and some great observations found in it.
On September 22 2010 22:02 nemanja1503 wrote: Omw to check the new part of the review, I talked to the creator and gave him some ideas, and a link to this thread and some great observations found in it.
Sweet, thanks. I'm extremely scared of Youtube as a discussion platform, but the guy seems like a clever chap who would be very interesting to have in the topic. Well, this and the multiple story-related topics that are springing up on the EU and US BattleNet forums. Did you notice how there used to be like two topics each a few weeks ago, but now there are many? I really hope that Blizzard does at least take note of the discussions...
Yeah, but I feel it's already too late. I guess the plot for the addons is pretty much set.
I wouldn't be too sure about that -- I was just pointed to this interview with Dustin Browder, the lead designer of Electronic Arts StarCraft II. Have a look at the very last question. It sounds to me like those guys have no idea yet what the final product is going to be like. Then when you read that they had 18 missions per campaign when they decided to split the thing into three installments and that anything less would have "rushed" you through the campaign, it just makes you wonder...
Ok I checked out part 4, it was nice and had some points about the correlations with the warcraft story but I found it generally less interesting and informative than the previous installments.
Hey guys, this is my first post on Team Liquid forums. About a week ago I started writing a Starcraft 2 review, which got kind of out of hand and ended up as a rant few pages long. And I didn't even finish it yet - nor will I. BroodmyWarcraft's redlettermedia-style videos are rough, but he makes good points in a way much more interesting than a wall of text. Still, I don't want to just throw the review away so I decided to post it here.
Could you tell me the backstory of Wings of Liberty? Take your time. Is it Raynor fighting against Mengsk? But he doesn't really do anything against Mengsk - he's more focused on helping colonists, getting money and the artifacts. The entire revolution sub-plot, with the adjutant and all, is just four missions long(five if you count Wasteland) in the twenty-two Terran total - and completely optional! So maybe it's all about Kerrigan? But the chance to turn her back human doesn't even appear until the very end of the game. There is not a single clue that the artifact, once complete, could turn her back human until Valerian tells you so explicitly, and that triggers another short sub-plot about saving Kerrigan which puts the game on rails should you start it.
The reason for this incoherency is the non-linear campaign structure. To simplify, the more linear the story the stronger it is(or at least could be) because the more control the writers have of the pacing, arc and characters. Non-linearity ruins all that as you can't predict where the player will move next and I cannot really blame Blizzard for failing to pull it off. Writing a good story that also remains non-linear is a daunting task.
I can, hovewer, blame them for not taking advantage of the non-linear campaign structure.
While it's true that you're presented with various missions to choose from at any given time, the order in which you do them doesn't matter at all, and the choice of picking one mission over the other doesn't exist. The missions will just hang out on the Star Map until you decide to do them, no matter how much time has passed and what other missions you've done, which is especially irking in mission which should be on a timer like The Moebius Factor. The entire planet is being overrun by Zerg, I shouldn't be able to just hang out and do other stuff in the meantime. The very first choice you make is between The Evacuation, where you save some innocent colonists and Shash and Grab, which is another artifact mission for Tychus. The contrast between the two is obvious: be a good guy or be a rich guy and I honestly thought it was a "hard" choice - once I pick one, the other will disappear. But after saving the colonists(damn my good heart) and going back to the Star Map I realized that not only Tychus' mission is still there so there was no moral choice at all, it pays barely 10% more than The Evacuation which means that there is hardly any monetary choice to it as well. In fact almost all missions in the campaign pay exactly the same - not counting The Outlaws and Zero Hour which are technically part of the tutorial, the difference between lowest and highest paying mission in the game is 25%. Which begs the question, where do these credits come from? Sometimes you can justify it - Tosh pays you for springing out his buddies for example - but what about, say, Heaven's Fall? Who pays James Raynor for killing infected colonists? It can't be money for the artifacts since again, you could just ignore the artifact mission line and still get money for other missions.
Speaking of Heaven's Fall, it is one of the two missions in the game where you're given a moral choice. But guess what? Your choice doesn't matter here as well; whatever you pick, you'll be right. If you side with Protoss, the colonists and Ariel herself will be infected; if you side with Ariel, apparently the Protoss were completely wrong and there was no infection at all. Similar deal with Tosh, though less blatant as he's an anti-hero. Choices without consequences are meaningless.
So the order in which you pick the missions is mostly irrelevant gameplay-wise and the moral choice of picking missions is nonexistent. While Blizzard suffered all the consequences of making a non-linear campaign they failed to utilize any of its strengths. Even more so; despite putting different parts of the story into bubble sub-plots they couldn't make them work together well enough. For example the beforementioned Revolution sub-plot - whether you do it or not, Raynor will need to confront the Hyperion crew about striking a deal with Valerian. You'd think that if he took care of the Media Blitz just before siding with a Mangsk, the crew would have more faith in him. But it plays out the same no matter whether you dealt a serious blow to Arcturus' reputation or not.
The bottom line is, ultimately there is no reason for the the campaign to be non-linear at all. If it was linear just like in Starcraft it would flow and work much better and the impact on the gameplay would be minimal. All it does is hurt the story - which is actually pretty damn bad even without being chopped into fragments. So yeah, it's not bottom line quite yet. We're just getting started.
The problem with story, characters, writing and presentation is that it's all straight from a B-class Hollywood movie. You get a pretty good taste of it the moment you start a new game - Raynor drinking alone in a bar, melancholically staring at the photo of his ex, camera zooms on his eyes, he shoots the TV because he doesn't like the guy on the TV and then says "It's about time we kicked this revolution into overdrive". Sorry Blizzard, but I've seen better directed and more subtle scenes in *anime* and that's about as damning claim as it gets. And it gets worse. "We got so far because we were leaning on each other"... I literally facepalmed during the entire pep talk in Fire and Fury cinematic, and normally I'm a huge sucker for heroic stuff. Who the hell wrote that? How does it even relate to the rest of the story? At which point in the game anyone was leaning on anyone else?
As if cheesy, badly directed cutscenes weren't enough we are presented a full array of two dimensional characters which are so archetypical they border on caricatures. Matt Horner is the young, handsome idealist; Stetmann is a "standard nerd"; Findlay is the macho tough guy; Tosh is a black rastaman complete with dreadlocks. A lot of work was done to import the old characters into this new black and white setting as well: Raynor, once a pretty simple and honest young chap who gets caught into something much bigger than his little revolution but he just does what he believes is right is now a dirty, old, tired, drinking veteran mercenary type complete with shotgun shells(even though he never fires a shotgun in the entire game) and what look like rifle grenades(he never uses these either). Despite the fact that he seemed to give up on Kerrigan in Starcraft and he even swore to kill her for what she's done in Brood War, he now apparently wants nothing but to have her back. I guess that's what four years of drinking will do to you. Alcohol is bad, kids. And yeah I know he has an excuse because she's now instrumental to saving the world, but he spends so much time with her picture that it's obvious he loves her sooooooooo much. And if you don't do the Protoss mini-campaign you don't know that she needs to live(yep, that's the non-linearity coming back to bite the story in the ass again).
Kerrigan herself is not much better. In the first mission she comes under the player's control in Starcraft she quite clearly states she "likes what she is". She displays insane ambition as well as cunning, double, triple and quadruple crossing just about every other character in Starcraft and Brood War and emerges victorious, self-proclaimed "Queen Bitch of the Universe". Then, when there is no one left to oppose her... she retreats back to Char and keeps sitting there quietly for four years? When she comes back out in SC2, she's all emo and then in All-In it is even revealed that she actually retains most of her humanity and doesn't really want to be a Zerg no more. Much like Raynor she got her image changed, complete with high heels. Hey remember what Overmind said about the Zerg? That they were the purity of essence? I guess when you're main female character in the game it's *essential* to be as sexy as possible.
Finally, Arcturus Mengsk. while he certainly wasn't your friendly neighbour despot, it's hard to say using the PSI Emitters on Tarsonis was not justified considering the nuclear holocaust of Korhal by Confederacy which prompted the creation of Sons of Korhal in the first place. In Wings of Liberty he was reduced to the role of Stalin, a ruthless dictator who kills everyone who questions his rule and spends "trillions" on hunting rebels like Raynor despite the fact he didn't even care about him all that much in Starcraft and Brood War. There is not much to say about Valerian, other than the fact his motivations are ridiculous - it's blindingly obvious that Arcturus is not a popular leader, so what kind of idiotic goal is proving yourself to the people? But Valerian is obviously a weasel kind of character so I'll let that go on the grounds his real motivations will become clear later.
The gist of things is that Raynor is feeling responsible for having Kerrigan deliver the PSI Emitter on Tarsonis even though he had nothing to do with it and also feeling responsible for leaving her there even though there was nothing he could do and in fact urged her not to go. These lapses in logic made him bitter and a heavy drinker. Meanwhile Tychus who is on Mengsk's paycheck is ordered to do... something. I can't imagine what his deal with Arcturus would be. It seems that from the start his goal is to kill Kerrigan(as he digs about her in the archives and every time Raynor mentions her he urges him to put an end to her once and for all) - now Mengsk wanting Kerrgan dead is understandable, because... well... um... uh actually he doesn't really have any good reason to hate Kerrigan all that much. But anyway, did Arcturus *predict* the new Zerg invasion? Did he *predict* that Raynor will go after the artifacts not even knowing what they do? Did he *predict* that he will succeed? Did he *predict* that his son will betray him and assault Char directly once the artifact is complete? Did he *predict* that Kerrigan will be back human again?
So about halfway through the game Zeratul appears literally out of nowhere and ruins the Starcraft universe forever by giving Raynor the mhm-mhm crystal in which he learns that Overmind had a vision of the future. Visions of the future are just like time travel: No matter how little of it you add to the story, it now officially sucks and is beyond repair. I hope I don't need to explain the paradox of seeing the future being different than how it's going to be because now we know it might be different if x happens so obviously we will not allow it to happen so it would never have happaned in the first place so there should be no vision of the future happening as it happaned when Overmind saw it.
*deep breath*
Now this whole mess might have been handled differently and quite well by simply stating that Overmind with his huge alien brain analyzed all possible outcomes like the computer in War Games and realized the only way to win against the Hybrid is by joining forces of all three races. But for the sake of cheap mysticism and saturday night doom prophecies we got the vision of the future which will never happen. By the way, a minor point: In The Propecy cinematic, Zeratul looks at the prophecy of Xel'Naga returning carved in stone. This includes carvings of Hydralisk and Ultralisk. But both Hydralisk and Ultralisk are not native Zerg organisms, they were evolved based on much more peaceful and docile animals Zerg encountered - slothiens and brontoliths. In other words, there were no Hydralisks and Ultralisks attacking the Xel'Naga, and the carvings can't really be newer than that, as otherwise who would make them... now my head hurts.
There is another inconsistency in the Protoss campaign and that's the reason why Overmind created Kerrigan in the first place - as some kind of trick on its imperative goal to kill all Protoss. Except Overmind never wanted to kill all Protoss, as it states quite clearly in the last Zerg mission in Starcraft the goal was to achieve perfection as a species. For that it needed the Khaydarin Crystal, nothing else, and the entire invasion of Aiur was about getting said crystal and placing it in the ruins of the Xel'Naga temple so Overmind could manifest there. Of course after achieving perfection Overmind would most likely slaughter all the Protoss(and Terran) all the same, but it was never even suggested as one of its goals. But obviously they needed to make Kerrigan the Good Guy in Wings of Liberty as you'll be playing as her in Heart of the Swarm so it was retconned along with Tassadar's death. Tassadar is now "neither alive nor dead" which means he's a deus ex machina plot device to be used whenever the good guys run out of ideas. Mark my words, we'll be seeing more of him in the future.
Then there's the case of recovered adjutant and its intercepted message of Arcturus ordering placing of PSI Emitters on Korhal. Raynor is a widely known criminal and a terrorist, and yet it takes but one audio log by said criminal and terrorist for everyone to believe Mengsk killed six billion people? Now you could say that Arcturus was so widely hated already that all it took was one audio log to spark the rebellion, but his reaction(and reaction of the press present on the conference) makes no sense at all. In the Hearts and Minds cinematic he's seen calmly stating that the message is fabricated, then Kate Lockwell plays the recording and this sends him into a rage and act in the most conspicious way possible. What the hell? Just deny it! You denied it ten seconds ago! Deny it again! What's the big deal? Just say again that it's a fake! Is this the same man who was smart enough to *predict* defeat of Kerrigan? Speaking of Kate, she spends the entire game reporting about successes of Raynor's Raiders and speaking against Dominion and not once she gets killed, murdered, arrested, beaten up, locked up or even censored. I know the whole News thing is supposed to be kind of a comic relief but it's hard to believe the vision of a totalitarian empire when you can badmouth it constantly on national television with no consequences.
After gathering all the pieces of the artifact we get another story piece dumbed down for no reason other than giving the animators something to do, which is assault on the Bucephalus. This is one of the most ridiculous moments in the game and yes, I get it, you want to have a dramatic entry for Valerian, but there are limits of how much can you sacrifice in the name of flashy bangs. Okay so the Dominion ships arrive and even though they outnumber Raynor's Raiders at least three to one he decides to assault the flagship himself, personally, since "their shields are still down". Now you might think that Valerian purposefully left the shields down because he wanted Raynor to board the ship, but I know the real reason why they're down: It's because BATTLECRUISERS DON'T HAVE FUCKING SHIELDS. And why the hell is Raynor even boarding the Bucephalus? Just shoot at it! Shoot it! Shoot it WITH LASERS! If Arcturus is on board he will die if you blow up his ship! But since Jim is such a drama queen he simply must risk his life and lives of all the Raynor's Raiders just to have a chance to kill Arcturus personally with his handgun. Even though it wouldn't work as he loaded it wrong(he loads the single bullet in topmost chamber; his revolver has barrel at the bottom, Mateba-style). Valerian, of course, *predicted* that not only Raynor will board the ship, but he also *predicted* that he will survive fighting through dozens of what I assume are elite Dominion Marines and also *predicted* he won't simply shoot him in the head as soon as he opens the door. Even so, letting all of his men die for nothing since he and Jim become allies five minutes later is a pretty asshole thing to do. Finally, I have one last complaint about this whole sequence. Why the hell this is not a playable mission? It simply begs for an installation crawl. Even the cinematic looks like it's split in two. As soon as Raynor and Findlay leave the bridge, loading screen, you play the mission, then the second part plays, with the idiotic flash grenade sequence. Maybe they ran out of time to make the mission. They only had five years to make the game after all.
And finally we come to the biggest turd of the storyline: The ending cinematic. At this point in the game it's nothing surprising; it's more of a recap of all the problems with the story I outlined so far. One thing that stands out is that Findlay is talking directly to Arcturus and it's suggested that Arcturus sees what he sees, probably with a live stream like they have here on Team Liquid. Which begs the question, if Arcturus knew where Findlay is the whole time - I imagine finding a source of a radio signal strong enough to reach from Char to Korhal with no noticeable delay isn't very hard, and even if it's somehow impossible, Findlay could just look at the Star Map with Hyperion's position highlighted on it or something - if all this time Arcturus knew the precise position of the Hyperion, why didn't he simply assault it with half the fleet and turn it into space dust WITH LASERS? The story wants us to believe that he simply hates Kerrigan much more than Raynor. Why? I have no idea, but I wrote about that already. James, the man who swore he will kill Kerrigan, prefers to kill one of his best buddies instead, but I wrote about that too. And then the very thing everyone dreaded happens and we get a happy end with Kerrigan in Raynor's arms.
Hey remember the previous endings in Starcraft universe?
In Rebel Yell, the good guy turns out the bad guy and gets everything. The prize for winning the last mission is merely continued existence. In The Overmind, the bad guys win. The prize for winning the last mission is possibly dooming the entire sector. In The Fall, The Overmind is defeated. Hovewer Aiur lies in ruins and Kerrigan is ready to take over the Swarm. In The Stand, all you achieve is secure a new homeworld for the Protoss. In The Iron Fist, more bad guys arrive and win. In Queen of Blades, old bad guys kill the new bad guys. But it doesn't make them any better.
What happens in SC2 ending? Good guys successfully assault the bad guys' homeworld. They get rid of the head bad guy. They most likely turn the head bad guy into a good guy. Zerg all over the sector fell into disarray, since there's no one to guide them anymore - the war is as good as won. Since Kerrigan is still alive, we can assume Hybrids will be stopped too. I played jRPGs with less happy endings, and that's about as damning claim as it gets.
But enough about the story. This is a videogame, and despite what gaming journalismos like to claim(as it makes them look much more refined), video games are not all about the story. Video games are about the gameplay. So how's the gameplay in SC2? Well, in single player, it's not that good actually. The gist of the problem is that Blizzard tried to make missions a little bit too interesting, achieving what I like to call the Baldur's Gate 2 Effect. See, in Baldur's Gate - the first one - most of areas in the game were just generic fantasy plains, hills, forests, and so on. That wasn't generally very interesting, hovewer it meant that when you finally stumbled on some special location, it was truly unique - because it was surrounded by mediocrity(if you can call high fantasy setting mediocre). You never knew what awaited you in the next area. In Baldur's Gate 2, it's all drastically different; you start out in a secret hideout/lab of a powerful mage complete with portal to the Plane of Air and it gets even more extreme from here - labyrinths under ancient asylums, underwater cities, underdark, planar spheres, dragons... it's a rollercoaster, and that's why it never really delivers the same sense of adventure that Baldur's Gate did - you're simply bombarded with one unique location after another to the point where they lose their sense of uniqueness.
What was I talking about again?
Oh right. So see, they obviously wanted to make missions in SC2 as unique as possible, but that's the deal - something is unique if it's different from what you normally see. Since almost all missions in SC2 are trying to be unique, the're not really. You eventually find yourself wishing for normal, '90s era "here is your base, here is the massive enemy base, build up and destroy it" gameplay.
I guess it wouldn't be such a problem if the unique missions were actually a lot of fun. Because they're not. Majority of missions in Wings of Liberty is various variations on:
a) timed missions b) escort missions
Now I analyzed the RTS market with a team of Cheerleaders. They came to one, unanimous conclusion: that if I let them go, they won't tell nobody... oh wait, started channeling redlettermedia there. Let's try that again. I analyzed the RTS market with the power of Internet all on my own in my small, dark, cold and damp basement and came to the following conclusion: that when it comes to RTS games, but also most of other games in general, majority of people doesn't like:
a) timed missions b) escort missions
Oh...
But hey, maybe it's not so bad. How many timed and escort missions could there be in SC2, anyway?
Wasteland - Normal Outlaws - Normal Zero Hour - Normal
*The Evacuation - timed, escort *Outbreak - double timed (is the night over yet? zzz) *Safe Haven - timed, escort / *Heaven's Fall - escort (I guess you could just let all the colonies get infested. But that's lame and could make the mission unwinnable on higher difficulties)
*Smash and Grab - timed The Dig - Normal *The Moebius Factor - timed *Supernova - timed Maw of the Void - Normal
evil's Playground - timed *Welcome to the Jungle - timed (Tal'Darim sealing altars) Breakout - Normal / Ghost of a Chance - Normal
*The Great Train Robbery - timed *Cutthroat - timed *Engine of Destruction - timed, escort Media Blitz - Normal *Piercing the Shroud - Normal(first half)/timed(second half)
Whispers of Doom - Normal A Sinister Turn - Normal Echoes of the Future - Normal In Utter Darkness - Normal
*Gates of Hell - timed Belly of the Beast - Normal / Shatter the Sky - Normal All-In - technically Escort, but your base is more likely to fall before the artifact does, so Normal
Out of 26 missions in the game, 13 - half - are either timed or escort missions. The kind that nobody likes. Why, Blizzard? It's because Blizzard has a fundamental misunderstanding about what makes playing an RTS fun. In multiplayer it's the challenge. But in single player mode it's almost the opposite. People who play campaigns in RTSes usually don't do it for the challenge, but to get a story and because the mechanics are fun. They're usually phlegmatic kind of guys, who will replay it multiple times and proud themselves on discovering that if you position an artillery unit on that ledge over there in mission seventeen you will be able to destroy three energy generators in the enemy base - amazing, eh? These guys don't approach missions as a challenge of clicking fast and accurately, but as a puzzle to be solved. What is the best strategy in that mission? They will usually spend a lot of time just sitting in their base, waiting until everything is researched, building up defensive structures, then a large army and only then rolling out on the map in one slow push, systematically destroying everything. And as you can imagine, they don't really like missions which force them to act quickly. I know because I'm one of these guys.
You see it's quite disappointing because Blizzard themselves said that it's pointless to make the campaign a tutorial for the multiplayer, and yet that's exactly what they did. At least the campaign is much better preparation for MP than, say, Warcraft 3's. If it wasn't for SP-exclusive units, playing the campaign on higher difficulties would be a pretty good way to get started in multiplayer because you need to hurry and micro a lot. So I guess they might have wanted to make the SP part more SP but didn't have any idea what makes SP fun in the first place.
Another reason why timed/escort missions suck in Wings of Liberty is that there's a ton of units available with tons of upgrades. Yet you're never really allowed to have fun with them. Theoretically you should be able to do so in remaining 13 "Normal" missions, but: three of these are tutorial missions where you can barely build anything anyway and four of these are Protoss missions. That leaves 6. Out of these, All-In and The Dig are defensive so you're not likely to attack anyone outside your base with anything, Piercing the Shroud is a dungeon crawl(and so is Belly of the Beast if you pick it), and in Maw of the Void you're forced to use Battlecruisers. In the end, at most there are two(!) missions in the game where you're allowed to have fun with all your shiny units with shiny upgrades you spent a fortune on: Media Blitz and Shatter the Sky, latter of which you're unlikely to pick for storyline reasons. So that's basically... only Media Blitz where you can finally check out if your Wraiths really do evade 20% attacks when cloaked and other funky stuff. Lameness.
A minor note, but it's quite funny: Pretty much every unit which returns from SC/BW is better than its new counterpart in SC2. Goliaths and Wraiths are better than Vikings, Medics are better than Medivacs, Vultures are better than Hellions and so on.
Speaking of upgrades, it's disappointing that many of them are multiplayer upgrades you're forced to buy in the Armory instead of simply researching them in their respective research buildings. Was it really so hard to come up with two new additions to every unit? Some of units start fully upgraded and have two special Armory upgrades(like Reapers), some don't. I don't really understand the reasnoning behind that. And why Ghosts don't have the EMP, not even as an Armory upgrade? Considering how useful it is in multiplayer... you can't tell me it's too unbalanced, Spectres get a three second long AoE stun without spending a single credit! Research upgrades are cooler and more unique, but some of them are really silly or just useless(Shrike Turret and Predator for example). And I can't just put my finger on it, but I think the whole idea could have been handled better. Get points, every 5 points you unlock upgrades... that's okay, but Blizzard usually spends a lot of time polishing their games so "just okay" is surprising.
Since we're on Hyperion, let's talk about it. What is it, mechanics-wise? Well, it's basically a giant turd on your way to play the game. Because every time you want to continue your progress, you need to first load the Hyperion... actually, wait. First you need to wait for the auto-patcher to contact the Blizzard server in case there's another patch out that will ruin all your single player saves. Once that's done, you need to wait for the dynamic menu to load. Then you click the continue campaign button, which means you now need to wait for Hyperion to load, and once that's loaded, you spend entire ten seconds there because that's how long it will take you to go to the Star Map, select a mission and click "Launch".
Man, and to think Brood War launches so fast that you can't even see the Loading screen.
Eventually you learn to turn off the game before talking to anyone after a mission since then at least you have an excuse to load the 3D briefing menu that Hyperion is. But no, really. Can you name one thing about the Hyperion that couldn't be done with Starcraft-style 2D screen? Why is it even 3D in the first place? Just like the non-linear campaign, this is more taking of a feature and then failing to utilize any of its strong points. At the very least they could let you walk around the ship yourself, but no, you only click the buttons to move between 3D set pieces. In other words, there is no reason AT ALL for all this to be in 3D and take minutes to load. It could have been talking portraits just like in days of yore and it would have worked exactly the same...
Now this is a fair warning. I'm starting to talk about graphics now. If you're still reading this for some reason, now it's your last chance to stop and do something productive with your life. No? Okay. Here we go.
...just like REST OF THE GAME. Now I know that making a 3D game today is almost obligatory, even if it's a strategy game like Civilization it must be 3D or no one will buy it. Though this is a game by a company with practically infinite money, with huge recognition and enough hype for a Call of Duty 11. As unlikely as it would be, they COULD make it 2D(or at least release some kind of ESPORTS MODE which would be 2D overlay) and it would still sell millions. But as I said, making 3D games today is an obligation so I won't dwell further on the issue. What I will dwell on, hovewer, is graphics style and audio.
It is one of Internet's greatest ironies that while Diablo 3 was being jumped on by thousands of nerds who were calling it a WoW clone simply because Blizzard dared to introduce things like ambient light from torches, the shift to cartoon-ish graphics in Starcraft 2 went almost completely unnoticed. Now the shift itself is not entirely unexpected as the same thing happened to Warcraft 3. Hovewer there is a subtle difference between Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2: Warcraft 3 is a FANTASY game and follows a series of FANTASY games whose graphics were almost just as cartoony. Starcraft 2 on the other hand is SCIENCE FICTION and follows Starcraft and Brood War which were SCIENCE FICTION and only slightly cartoony(if at all) and even that was a result of the technical limitations more than deliberate design. Otherwise... well I wouldn't call them gritty, and some liberies were taken for the sake of gameplay(Battlecruisers and Carriers as buildable units) but it was a pretty solid science fiction.
Let's consider the Siege Tank as an example. In SC/BW, it's a tank with the siege mode added on. All siege mode does is extend the supports - quite reasonable - and basically turns the barrel(s) around to fire from the other end - not quite as reasonable but a pretty cool idea. Now how exactly the same unit works in SC2? First of all, the turret was made comically huge. Then additional set of tracks was added on the sides, like these bikes for kids with support wheels. But the worst of all is the siege mode - changing the barrel geometry is not a big deal, though definitely less interesting than the original breech reversal. Hovewer the supports now extend from these silly little extra tracks, which retract inside the hull, while the main tracks extend to the sides and life the entire tank up by around a meter or so. Now excuse me but this is retarded on so many levels that I need to spend a while talking about it. Just what the hell would lifting what is now na artillery piece up by one meter achieve? Artillery, by definition, is an indirect fire weapon so elevation is almost completely IRRELEVANT. Not to mention that after all that nonsense you actually REDUCED the area in which the tank touches the ground. You did the complete opposite of what extending the supports was supposed to achieve, that is reduce the point ground pressure when firing the siege cannon. And what do you mean the side tracks retract INSIDE the vehicle? What is there a bunch of empty space inside just for that? Where does that fat guy inside fits in then? You redesigned the entire unit and all you've achieved is stripping it of all pretense of realism and turned it into a toy, a LEGO toy. Not even LEGO Technic toy, this is some Duplo shit! What about the Goliath? THAT is one of the most bad-ass units in Starcraft? It looks like an outhouse on legs. And who is that fatso inside? THAT is one of the most bad-ass unit voices/portraits in Starcraft? How could you possibly fuck it up SO BADLY?
Protoss units aren't much better. The cybernetic theme is almost completely gone, instead Protoss now utilize flimsy, delicate elf-like design. Hey Blizzard, you know what was the defining feature of Protoss in SC? Strong, but more importantly, TOUGH units. Almost all Protoss units have tons of HP and at least 1 Armor. Zealot, most basic Protoss unit, has more HP than a fucking TANK. But I guess that's too non-standard for all the casuals you're aiming for with this game. They can't get anything more complicated than humans-bugs-elves. Good fucking job, Blizzard. Keep pissing in your own cornflakes. At least Zerg got away relatively undumbed, as it's hard to fuck up a race of alien bugs.
Units that are new are even worse. Now I don't want to hate on Blizzard too much for actually adding in new units, because people already bitch that "Starcraft 2 is just Starcraft in 3D" so I won't ask stupid questions like "If these Colossi were on Aiur all along, why didn't they help fighting against the Overmind" or "How the heck all three races managed to completely change most of their standing forces in just four years" and finally "If Protoss did change most of their units in just four years, how come they didn't change them ever again in hundreds of years before they took the last stand against the Hybrid". Making sequels is a bitch, you want to add new stuff but you have to find a way to explain why old stuff is now the new stuff which almost never works. No hate there.
But the mechanics of the units themselves? Hooo boy.
First of all, the units are obviously designed for multiplayer. That means instead of creating three distinct races and then designing units based on the "personalities" of the races, they made a bunch of units based on what the race needs in multiplayer to be competetive at any stage in the game. Example. In Starcraft, Terran units were mostly based on what actually exists: Infantry with assault rifles. Medics. Infantry with flamethrowers. Tanks. Fighters. Dropships. At no point they started adding in stupid crap like jetpack-equipped dual-pistol-wielding infantry, because that would be simply silly and unbelievable. But because design in SC2 started with multiplayer, and they wanted terran to be able to harass from the early stages of the game, they designed this abortion of a unit which feels as if it's straight from some badly written fanfic. Viking, another example. Why would you make a mech that turns into a plane? Would you rather just have better mech and better plane separately? But for some match balance reasons I can't even comprehend they decided it would be best to have an unit that only attacks ground when on the ground, and only attacks air when in the air, and thus Viking was born. Defying all common sense, but since when gameplay mechanics adhere to common sense?
Finally I wanted to talk about dumbing down of the new units. We'll use Colossus as an example here. Colossus is obviously a Shuttle Reaver, except as a single unit so it's much easier to pull off and some nerfs were done so it won't be so extremely damaging/unbeatable in the right hands. Shuttle Reaver harass was extremely dangerous and could easily win you the game - if you did it right. And it was really damn hard to do it right with siege tanks, mines you can't see and Missile Turrets. Obviously Blizzard wanted to make Starcraft 2 more accessible so such dangerous extremes were removed from the game. There are many more examples of that line of thought, for example Spider Mines were completely removed from the game; Immortals were put in as a means of dealing with Siege Tanks lines; Queens were added to make management of the Zerg's "third resource" easier. A lot of improvements were done to the interface, insanely overpowered spells were removed from the game, and the game even auto-micros for you to a certain extent. And that's why Starcraft 2 will never be played as competetively as Brood War. It's simply too easy. One could say that only recently Brood War was truly mastered, over a decade after it was released. Starcraft played on professional level is a very hard game, personally I believe it's hardest game ever made. And that's what makes it such a competetive hit, because there's always the next peak to climb. Game as user-friendly as Starcraft 2 will be mastered quickly, players will quickly reach limits of the game and it will die just like all the other RTSes.
On September 23 2010 04:46 Birthday wrote: Still, I don't want to just throw the review away so I decided to post it here.
Hey, that was a great read! No need to comment on the story and writing, I think we agree there, but I did also very much enjoy your analysis of the gameplay, the unit design and the visual aesthetics. I would never have thought about minding the siege tank design, but now I can't unthink how silly the change is! Cartoony indeed, and why, Blizzard, why.
What I definitely agree with is your point about the 3D Hyperion intermissions. 3D animation is such a costly process, and indeed these entire sequences add nothing in terms of immersion that couldn't have been done in 2D. Did you ever see the fantastic little game Starscape? The visual style is fantastic and it's great fun, and it feels very modern, but it's all in 2D. It was made by a couple of people in a basement (figuratively), and it provides you hours of fun at a very low price. Menus of that style would have been entirely sufficient for SC2, and they'd have saved us lots of time and nerves waiting for the loading screens.
I sort of see why the actual game makes sense in 3D. You can have much more general terrain than in a 2D world, I suppose. Even though I don't think you're meant to change the camera angle (though there's a little bit of wiggle room) and you may really wonder why they bothered, at least it offers lots of potential for machinima and such things. Hm, I guess the same idea went into the Hyperion scenes: by setting it all up in 3D, they could use the same sets for the realtime cutscenes. I don't really know. Ultimately I suppose RTS is the genre that least calls for proper 3D, and it's quite possible that all that development money could have been spent more wisely. Like on a writer who isn't totally out of ideas.
On August 05 2010 08:20 Supamang wrote: You completely miss the point about the "Raynor swored to kill Kerrigan" bit (way to inject bad grammar to try to make us look stupid). The point is, the fact that Raynor was in love with Kerrigan and that he then had a turnaround when he realized that Kerrigan was now the queen bitch of the universe was some good character development. They could have utilized that and had Raynor struggling with his past love and his more recent desire to avenge his war buddy Fenix, among countless others.
Instead, we got a deus ex machina that magically allowed him to stop the queen and get kerrigan back in one fell swoop. This allowed for a cheesy ending where Raynor literally walked off with Kerrigan in his arms into the sunset. My point, at least, was that Blizzard gave up on a good opportunity for character development and a less linear plot.
Pretty much sums up my feelings. I was so excited to see Raynor be true to his word, and be the one to kill Kerrigan, but perhaps in a spectacular fashion (...maybe it will still have to happen?), for instance, he himself gets infested in order to get closer to her, and kills her to take the power for himself. JUST AN EXAMPLE, I know it is retarded, but it'd be a twist that satisfies the "Raynor swored to kill Kerrigan" argument, and at the same time allowed for a a twist. It'd be kind of hard to transition into Raynor being the new "bad guy" for the rest of the series, but perhaps if that was how the SC2 trilogy ended... IDK. I am really reaching here for SOME kind of twist, or deep thought put into the story. I just hope all the shallowness of this part is crucial in order to lead to a magnificent plot, but after such a watered down, contrived ending as that, I am having my doubts.
I agree w/ fontong, an end like that would be awesome. It wouldn't make up for the rest of the story necessarily but it could really set the scene for something epic imo.
I was actually surprised at how disappointing the campaign storyline was, I mean I expected it to be aimed at a young audience, but the plot holes...
On August 04 2010 19:17 Jyvblamo wrote: The only part of the campaign that had me going "Seriously Blizzard?" was when the Hyperion by itself managed to dock and board the flagship of the Dominion fleet while being clearly outnumbered.
Except Mengsk wasn't there to fight...?
Would've made so much more sense if he just hailed them though
Okay so the Dominion ships arrive and even though they outnumber Raynor's Raiders at least three to one he decides to assault the flagship himself, personally, since "their shields are still down". Now you might think that Valerian purposefully left the shields down because he wanted Raynor to board the ship, but I know the real reason why they're down: It's because BATTLECRUISERS DON'T HAVE FUCKING SHIELDS. And why the hell is Raynor even boarding the Bucephalus? Just shoot at it! Shoot it! Shoot it WITH LASERS! If Arcturus is on board he will die if you blow up his ship! But since Jim is such a drama queen he simply must risk his life and lives of all the Raynor's Raiders just to have a chance to kill Arcturus personally with his handgun. Even though it wouldn't work as he loaded it wrong(he loads the single bullet in topmost chamber; his revolver has barrel at the bottom, Mateba-style). Valerian, of course, *predicted* that not only Raynor will board the ship, but he also *predicted* that he will survive fighting through dozens of what I assume are elite Dominion Marines and also *predicted* he won't simply shoot him in the head as soon as he opens the door. Even so, letting all of his men die for nothing since he and Jim become allies five minutes later is a pretty asshole thing to do.
So true <3 I'm not surprised at all with Mengsk wanting to killing Kerrigan. Raynor excepted, who wouldn't? She rules the zerg, is bound to invade the entire sector sooner or later, had betrayed Arcturus and murdered hundreds of thousands of people, including his own soldiers. When WoL begins, she is by far a greater threat than Raynor. Beyond that, I agree with most things you said about the story.
On the other hand, I did quite like the gameplay of the campaign. Lots of missions are timed, but that didn't bother me much, as it is a way to keep pressure on the player during the level, and have less of a "build 10 bunkers, 10 siege tanks, 10 battlecruisers and pwn the map". I'd have enjoyed more installation missions or more "use whatever units to wish to destroy everything" missons - many "normal" missions, such as Shatter the Sky or the Maar level, can be completed with surgical strikes rather than by total annihilation of the enemy. But all in all, I enjoyed the gameplay of the campaign, if not the story. The zerg/protoss research idea, for instance, was a good one - completely unbelievable from a story point of view, but a nice touch to the gameplay.
I'm not surprised at all with Mengsk wanting to killing Kerrigan. Raynor excepted, who wouldn't? She rules the zerg, is bound to invade the entire sector sooner or later, had betrayed Arcturus and murdered hundreds of thousands of people, including his own soldiers. When WoL begins, she is by far a greater threat than Raynor.
It's true that she killed millions of both soldiers and innocent people, but Mengsk is not the kind of man to really care about that(even before the retcon) and he did it himself more than once. It just feels like a very personal revenge to me, a revenge for something we never see.
Pretty much agree with everything.. It wasnt really even a continuation of broodwar, it was just random bullshit.. Broodwar left us with cliffhangers.. All of which werent met. What happened to Duran? Why does Jim suddenly carry a picture of her when he swore he would kill her? Why are there so many huge plot holes? Why did they make such an awful twist where infested kerrigan has to survive? Why are the characters completely different? Why was the ending so completely awful? They build up 3 different plots at the end.. When you beat the last mission, it kinda shows one of them.. Then after that its just "buy our next game to find out about the other 2!"
But i did like how it was in some kinda story mode.. Like there was a lobby and stuff.. You're not just some commander/cerebrate guy with no face lol.
Overall.. I HATED it as a longtime starcraft 1 fan..
but if I had never played sc;bw, then im sure I would've loved it
On September 25 2010 01:41 Mobius wrote: But i did like how it was in some kinda story mode.. Like there was a lobby and stuff.. You're not just some commander/cerebrate guy with no face lol.
Actually, can we discuss that? Because I've thought about this for a bit and I'm not sure.
Do you think the change of perspective from nameless follower to named protagonist is a good idea?
You see, one of the most important parts of story telling is engaging your audience and giving them something to care about, and characters to which they can relate. Now, most of us don't own battle cruisers or have loyal crews obeying our orders. Most of us are just ordinary, random shlubs who get swept along by life, and there's always something happening in the world that is just a little beyond us.
By making us the nameless guy who executes the commands of a system around him that's slightly beyond comprehension, SC1/BW brilliantly put us in a role that most of us can relate to only all too well. What's more, all the main characters are only exposed to the player through their interactions with the nameless player character, and naturally we would only get a small peek at the main guys, and there'd be lots of room for mystery. Also, being able to tag along different main guys (e.g. Duke, Mengsk, Raynor just in Episode 1!) kept things moving and fresh. We'd later meet them again from a different perspective, and so we could learn more about the main guys from different angles, while all the time moving at a refreshing pace. To quote Harry Plinkett: The fact that this was so brilliant tells me that Chris Metzen had nothing to do with it and would probably have fought against putting it in the game.
Now compare this to WoL: We spend an agonising 22+ missions with Raynor. There's only one perspective. What's worst is that now we are supposed to be him! But it makes no sense! He doesn't act at all like I would have! I'm angry now -- why doesn' he... sorry, why don't I get to lock Tychus up? That's what I'd have done! The experience of being Raynor is so dreadfully dull and terrible that it totally ruins the character. Not only do we see no mystery about him, but since we literally are he, we know that there's no mystery and that the guy is just a boring creep.
On September 25 2010 01:41 Mobius wrote: But i did like how it was in some kinda story mode.. Like there was a lobby and stuff.. You're not just some commander/cerebrate guy with no face lol.
Actually, can we discuss that? Because I've thought about this for a bit and I'm not sure.
Do you think the change of perspective from nameless follower to named protagonist is a good idea?
You see, one of the most important parts of story telling is engaging your audience and giving them something to care about, and characters to which they can relate. Now, most of us don't own battle cruisers or have loyal crews obeying our orders. Most of us are just ordinary, random shlubs who get swept along by life, and there's always something happening in the world that is just a little beyond us.
By making us the nameless guy who executes the commands of a system around him that's slightly beyond comprehension, SC1/BW brilliantly put us in a role that most of us can relate to only all too well. What's more, all the main characters are only exposed to the player through their interactions with the nameless player character, and naturally we would only get a small peek at the main guys, and there'd be lots of room for mystery. Also, being able to tag along different main guys (e.g. Duke, Mengsk, Raynor just in Episode 1!) kept things moving and fresh. We'd later meet them again from a different perspective, and so we could learn more about the main guys from different angles, while all the time moving at a refreshing pace. To quote Harry Plinkett: The fact that this was so brilliant tells me that Chris Metzen had nothing to do with it and would probably have fought against putting it in the game.
Now compare this to WoL: We spend an agonising 22+ missions with Raynor. There's only one perspective. What's worst is that now we are supposed to be him! But it makes no sense! He doesn't act at all like I would have! I'm angry now -- why doesn' he... sorry, why don't I get to lock Tychus up? That's what I'd have done! The experience of being Raynor is so dreadfully dull and terrible that it totally ruins the character. Not only do we see no mystery about him, but since we literally are he, we know that there's no mystery and that the guy is just a boring creep.
I really liked the way the original did it too. It was cool because you felt like this cog in the wheel of this great big universe which you are a minor part of. You're being ordered around by different leaders, given controversial orders, and ultimately must follow them through. But sometimes during the campaign I wondered, how do I feel about doing this? I hated leaving Kerrigan to her doom, but those were my orders. I hated working against Aldaris and killing my fellow protoss brethren, but I knew it was essential for Tassadar to succeed. I remember not wanting to kill Fenix for the longest time, until I realized that I was a cerebrate under the control of the bitch queen. It was fun. I never felt that way in WoL.
To take it one step further (this is probably more controversial), I really wished they incorporated the portrait / dialogue system that they had in the original, albeit tweaked graphics-wise to a much greater extent. I know it wouldn't be able to show all the pretty graphics like in WoL, but it made the original feel unique and refreshing compared to other games. More importantly, it adds this layer of mystery and imagination to everything that's hard to describe. I would have loved it if they used that and just modified it somehow to make it more eye-candyish for the casual gamer. Maybe with more cinematics or something. The way they did it in WoL just seemed boring to me.
On September 23 2010 04:46 Birthday wrote: Hey guys, this is my first post on Team Liquid forums. About a week ago I started writing a Starcraft 2 review, which got kind of out of hand and ended up as a rant few pages long. And I didn't even finish it yet - nor will I. BroodmyWarcraft's redlettermedia-style videos are rough, but he makes good points in a way much more interesting than a wall of text. Still, I don't want to just throw the review away so I decided to post it here.
Could you tell me the backstory of Wings of Liberty? Take your time. Is it Raynor fighting against Mengsk? But he doesn't really do anything against Mengsk - he's more focused on helping colonists, getting money and the artifacts. The entire revolution sub-plot, with the adjutant and all, is just four missions long(five if you count Wasteland) in the twenty-two Terran total - and completely optional! So maybe it's all about Kerrigan? But the chance to turn her back human doesn't even appear until the very end of the game. There is not a single clue that the artifact, once complete, could turn her back human until Valerian tells you so explicitly, and that triggers another short sub-plot about saving Kerrigan which puts the game on rails should you start it.
The reason for this incoherency is the non-linear campaign structure. To simplify, the more linear the story the stronger it is(or at least could be) because the more control the writers have of the pacing, arc and characters. Non-linearity ruins all that as you can't predict where the player will move next and I cannot really blame Blizzard for failing to pull it off. Writing a good story that also remains non-linear is a daunting task.
I can, hovewer, blame them for not taking advantage of the non-linear campaign structure.
While it's true that you're presented with various missions to choose from at any given time, the order in which you do them doesn't matter at all, and the choice of picking one mission over the other doesn't exist. The missions will just hang out on the Star Map until you decide to do them, no matter how much time has passed and what other missions you've done, which is especially irking in mission which should be on a timer like The Moebius Factor. The entire planet is being overrun by Zerg, I shouldn't be able to just hang out and do other stuff in the meantime. The very first choice you make is between The Evacuation, where you save some innocent colonists and Shash and Grab, which is another artifact mission for Tychus. The contrast between the two is obvious: be a good guy or be a rich guy and I honestly thought it was a "hard" choice - once I pick one, the other will disappear. But after saving the colonists(damn my good heart) and going back to the Star Map I realized that not only Tychus' mission is still there so there was no moral choice at all, it pays barely 10% more than The Evacuation which means that there is hardly any monetary choice to it as well. In fact almost all missions in the campaign pay exactly the same - not counting The Outlaws and Zero Hour which are technically part of the tutorial, the difference between lowest and highest paying mission in the game is 25%. Which begs the question, where do these credits come from? Sometimes you can justify it - Tosh pays you for springing out his buddies for example - but what about, say, Heaven's Fall? Who pays James Raynor for killing infected colonists? It can't be money for the artifacts since again, you could just ignore the artifact mission line and still get money for other missions.
Speaking of Heaven's Fall, it is one of the two missions in the game where you're given a moral choice. But guess what? Your choice doesn't matter here as well; whatever you pick, you'll be right. If you side with Protoss, the colonists and Ariel herself will be infected; if you side with Ariel, apparently the Protoss were completely wrong and there was no infection at all. Similar deal with Tosh, though less blatant as he's an anti-hero. Choices without consequences are meaningless.
So the order in which you pick the missions is mostly irrelevant gameplay-wise and the moral choice of picking missions is nonexistent. While Blizzard suffered all the consequences of making a non-linear campaign they failed to utilize any of its strengths. Even more so; despite putting different parts of the story into bubble sub-plots they couldn't make them work together well enough. For example the beforementioned Revolution sub-plot - whether you do it or not, Raynor will need to confront the Hyperion crew about striking a deal with Valerian. You'd think that if he took care of the Media Blitz just before siding with a Mangsk, the crew would have more faith in him. But it plays out the same no matter whether you dealt a serious blow to Arcturus' reputation or not.
The bottom line is, ultimately there is no reason for the the campaign to be non-linear at all. If it was linear just like in Starcraft it would flow and work much better and the impact on the gameplay would be minimal. All it does is hurt the story - which is actually pretty damn bad even without being chopped into fragments. So yeah, it's not bottom line quite yet. We're just getting started.
The problem with story, characters, writing and presentation is that it's all straight from a B-class Hollywood movie. You get a pretty good taste of it the moment you start a new game - Raynor drinking alone in a bar, melancholically staring at the photo of his ex, camera zooms on his eyes, he shoots the TV because he doesn't like the guy on the TV and then says "It's about time we kicked this revolution into overdrive". Sorry Blizzard, but I've seen better directed and more subtle scenes in *anime* and that's about as damning claim as it gets. And it gets worse. "We got so far because we were leaning on each other"... I literally facepalmed during the entire pep talk in Fire and Fury cinematic, and normally I'm a huge sucker for heroic stuff. Who the hell wrote that? How does it even relate to the rest of the story? At which point in the game anyone was leaning on anyone else?
As if cheesy, badly directed cutscenes weren't enough we are presented a full array of two dimensional characters which are so archetypical they border on caricatures. Matt Horner is the young, handsome idealist; Stetmann is a "standard nerd"; Findlay is the macho tough guy; Tosh is a black rastaman complete with dreadlocks. A lot of work was done to import the old characters into this new black and white setting as well: Raynor, once a pretty simple and honest young chap who gets caught into something much bigger than his little revolution but he just does what he believes is right is now a dirty, old, tired, drinking veteran mercenary type complete with shotgun shells(even though he never fires a shotgun in the entire game) and what look like rifle grenades(he never uses these either). Despite the fact that he seemed to give up on Kerrigan in Starcraft and he even swore to kill her for what she's done in Brood War, he now apparently wants nothing but to have her back. I guess that's what four years of drinking will do to you. Alcohol is bad, kids. And yeah I know he has an excuse because she's now instrumental to saving the world, but he spends so much time with her picture that it's obvious he loves her sooooooooo much. And if you don't do the Protoss mini-campaign you don't know that she needs to live(yep, that's the non-linearity coming back to bite the story in the ass again).
Kerrigan herself is not much better. In the first mission she comes under the player's control in Starcraft she quite clearly states she "likes what she is". She displays insane ambition as well as cunning, double, triple and quadruple crossing just about every other character in Starcraft and Brood War and emerges victorious, self-proclaimed "Queen Bitch of the Universe". Then, when there is no one left to oppose her... she retreats back to Char and keeps sitting there quietly for four years? When she comes back out in SC2, she's all emo and then in All-In it is even revealed that she actually retains most of her humanity and doesn't really want to be a Zerg no more. Much like Raynor she got her image changed, complete with high heels. Hey remember what Overmind said about the Zerg? That they were the purity of essence? I guess when you're main female character in the game it's *essential* to be as sexy as possible.
Finally, Arcturus Mengsk. while he certainly wasn't your friendly neighbour despot, it's hard to say using the PSI Emitters on Tarsonis was not justified considering the nuclear holocaust of Korhal by Confederacy which prompted the creation of Sons of Korhal in the first place. In Wings of Liberty he was reduced to the role of Stalin, a ruthless dictator who kills everyone who questions his rule and spends "trillions" on hunting rebels like Raynor despite the fact he didn't even care about him all that much in Starcraft and Brood War. There is not much to say about Valerian, other than the fact his motivations are ridiculous - it's blindingly obvious that Arcturus is not a popular leader, so what kind of idiotic goal is proving yourself to the people? But Valerian is obviously a weasel kind of character so I'll let that go on the grounds his real motivations will become clear later.
The gist of things is that Raynor is feeling responsible for having Kerrigan deliver the PSI Emitter on Tarsonis even though he had nothing to do with it and also feeling responsible for leaving her there even though there was nothing he could do and in fact urged her not to go. These lapses in logic made him bitter and a heavy drinker. Meanwhile Tychus who is on Mengsk's paycheck is ordered to do... something. I can't imagine what his deal with Arcturus would be. It seems that from the start his goal is to kill Kerrigan(as he digs about her in the archives and every time Raynor mentions her he urges him to put an end to her once and for all) - now Mengsk wanting Kerrgan dead is understandable, because... well... um... uh actually he doesn't really have any good reason to hate Kerrigan all that much. But anyway, did Arcturus *predict* the new Zerg invasion? Did he *predict* that Raynor will go after the artifacts not even knowing what they do? Did he *predict* that he will succeed? Did he *predict* that his son will betray him and assault Char directly once the artifact is complete? Did he *predict* that Kerrigan will be back human again?
So about halfway through the game Zeratul appears literally out of nowhere and ruins the Starcraft universe forever by giving Raynor the mhm-mhm crystal in which he learns that Overmind had a vision of the future. Visions of the future are just like time travel: No matter how little of it you add to the story, it now officially sucks and is beyond repair. I hope I don't need to explain the paradox of seeing the future being different than how it's going to be because now we know it might be different if x happens so obviously we will not allow it to happen so it would never have happaned in the first place so there should be no vision of the future happening as it happaned when Overmind saw it.
*deep breath*
Now this whole mess might have been handled differently and quite well by simply stating that Overmind with his huge alien brain analyzed all possible outcomes like the computer in War Games and realized the only way to win against the Hybrid is by joining forces of all three races. But for the sake of cheap mysticism and saturday night doom prophecies we got the vision of the future which will never happen. By the way, a minor point: In The Propecy cinematic, Zeratul looks at the prophecy of Xel'Naga returning carved in stone. This includes carvings of Hydralisk and Ultralisk. But both Hydralisk and Ultralisk are not native Zerg organisms, they were evolved based on much more peaceful and docile animals Zerg encountered - slothiens and brontoliths. In other words, there were no Hydralisks and Ultralisks attacking the Xel'Naga, and the carvings can't really be newer than that, as otherwise who would make them... now my head hurts.
There is another inconsistency in the Protoss campaign and that's the reason why Overmind created Kerrigan in the first place - as some kind of trick on its imperative goal to kill all Protoss. Except Overmind never wanted to kill all Protoss, as it states quite clearly in the last Zerg mission in Starcraft the goal was to achieve perfection as a species. For that it needed the Khaydarin Crystal, nothing else, and the entire invasion of Aiur was about getting said crystal and placing it in the ruins of the Xel'Naga temple so Overmind could manifest there. Of course after achieving perfection Overmind would most likely slaughter all the Protoss(and Terran) all the same, but it was never even suggested as one of its goals. But obviously they needed to make Kerrigan the Good Guy in Wings of Liberty as you'll be playing as her in Heart of the Swarm so it was retconned along with Tassadar's death. Tassadar is now "neither alive nor dead" which means he's a deus ex machina plot device to be used whenever the good guys run out of ideas. Mark my words, we'll be seeing more of him in the future.
Then there's the case of recovered adjutant and its intercepted message of Arcturus ordering placing of PSI Emitters on Korhal. Raynor is a widely known criminal and a terrorist, and yet it takes but one audio log by said criminal and terrorist for everyone to believe Mengsk killed six billion people? Now you could say that Arcturus was so widely hated already that all it took was one audio log to spark the rebellion, but his reaction(and reaction of the press present on the conference) makes no sense at all. In the Hearts and Minds cinematic he's seen calmly stating that the message is fabricated, then Kate Lockwell plays the recording and this sends him into a rage and act in the most conspicious way possible. What the hell? Just deny it! You denied it ten seconds ago! Deny it again! What's the big deal? Just say again that it's a fake! Is this the same man who was smart enough to *predict* defeat of Kerrigan? Speaking of Kate, she spends the entire game reporting about successes of Raynor's Raiders and speaking against Dominion and not once she gets killed, murdered, arrested, beaten up, locked up or even censored. I know the whole News thing is supposed to be kind of a comic relief but it's hard to believe the vision of a totalitarian empire when you can badmouth it constantly on national television with no consequences.
After gathering all the pieces of the artifact we get another story piece dumbed down for no reason other than giving the animators something to do, which is assault on the Bucephalus. This is one of the most ridiculous moments in the game and yes, I get it, you want to have a dramatic entry for Valerian, but there are limits of how much can you sacrifice in the name of flashy bangs. Okay so the Dominion ships arrive and even though they outnumber Raynor's Raiders at least three to one he decides to assault the flagship himself, personally, since "their shields are still down". Now you might think that Valerian purposefully left the shields down because he wanted Raynor to board the ship, but I know the real reason why they're down: It's because BATTLECRUISERS DON'T HAVE FUCKING SHIELDS. And why the hell is Raynor even boarding the Bucephalus? Just shoot at it! Shoot it! Shoot it WITH LASERS! If Arcturus is on board he will die if you blow up his ship! But since Jim is such a drama queen he simply must risk his life and lives of all the Raynor's Raiders just to have a chance to kill Arcturus personally with his handgun. Even though it wouldn't work as he loaded it wrong(he loads the single bullet in topmost chamber; his revolver has barrel at the bottom, Mateba-style). Valerian, of course, *predicted* that not only Raynor will board the ship, but he also *predicted* that he will survive fighting through dozens of what I assume are elite Dominion Marines and also *predicted* he won't simply shoot him in the head as soon as he opens the door. Even so, letting all of his men die for nothing since he and Jim become allies five minutes later is a pretty asshole thing to do. Finally, I have one last complaint about this whole sequence. Why the hell this is not a playable mission? It simply begs for an installation crawl. Even the cinematic looks like it's split in two. As soon as Raynor and Findlay leave the bridge, loading screen, you play the mission, then the second part plays, with the idiotic flash grenade sequence. Maybe they ran out of time to make the mission. They only had five years to make the game after all.
And finally we come to the biggest turd of the storyline: The ending cinematic. At this point in the game it's nothing surprising; it's more of a recap of all the problems with the story I outlined so far. One thing that stands out is that Findlay is talking directly to Arcturus and it's suggested that Arcturus sees what he sees, probably with a live stream like they have here on Team Liquid. Which begs the question, if Arcturus knew where Findlay is the whole time - I imagine finding a source of a radio signal strong enough to reach from Char to Korhal with no noticeable delay isn't very hard, and even if it's somehow impossible, Findlay could just look at the Star Map with Hyperion's position highlighted on it or something - if all this time Arcturus knew the precise position of the Hyperion, why didn't he simply assault it with half the fleet and turn it into space dust WITH LASERS? The story wants us to believe that he simply hates Kerrigan much more than Raynor. Why? I have no idea, but I wrote about that already. James, the man who swore he will kill Kerrigan, prefers to kill one of his best buddies instead, but I wrote about that too. And then the very thing everyone dreaded happens and we get a happy end with Kerrigan in Raynor's arms.
Hey remember the previous endings in Starcraft universe?
In Rebel Yell, the good guy turns out the bad guy and gets everything. The prize for winning the last mission is merely continued existence. In The Overmind, the bad guys win. The prize for winning the last mission is possibly dooming the entire sector. In The Fall, The Overmind is defeated. Hovewer Aiur lies in ruins and Kerrigan is ready to take over the Swarm. In The Stand, all you achieve is secure a new homeworld for the Protoss. In The Iron Fist, more bad guys arrive and win. In Queen of Blades, old bad guys kill the new bad guys. But it doesn't make them any better.
What happens in SC2 ending? Good guys successfully assault the bad guys' homeworld. They get rid of the head bad guy. They most likely turn the head bad guy into a good guy. Zerg all over the sector fell into disarray, since there's no one to guide them anymore - the war is as good as won. Since Kerrigan is still alive, we can assume Hybrids will be stopped too. I played jRPGs with less happy endings, and that's about as damning claim as it gets.
But enough about the story. This is a videogame, and despite what gaming journalismos like to claim(as it makes them look much more refined), video games are not all about the story. Video games are about the gameplay. So how's the gameplay in SC2? Well, in single player, it's not that good actually. The gist of the problem is that Blizzard tried to make missions a little bit too interesting, achieving what I like to call the Baldur's Gate 2 Effect. See, in Baldur's Gate - the first one - most of areas in the game were just generic fantasy plains, hills, forests, and so on. That wasn't generally very interesting, hovewer it meant that when you finally stumbled on some special location, it was truly unique - because it was surrounded by mediocrity(if you can call high fantasy setting mediocre). You never knew what awaited you in the next area. In Baldur's Gate 2, it's all drastically different; you start out in a secret hideout/lab of a powerful mage complete with portal to the Plane of Air and it gets even more extreme from here - labyrinths under ancient asylums, underwater cities, underdark, planar spheres, dragons... it's a rollercoaster, and that's why it never really delivers the same sense of adventure that Baldur's Gate did - you're simply bombarded with one unique location after another to the point where they lose their sense of uniqueness.
What was I talking about again?
Oh right. So see, they obviously wanted to make missions in SC2 as unique as possible, but that's the deal - something is unique if it's different from what you normally see. Since almost all missions in SC2 are trying to be unique, the're not really. You eventually find yourself wishing for normal, '90s era "here is your base, here is the massive enemy base, build up and destroy it" gameplay.
I guess it wouldn't be such a problem if the unique missions were actually a lot of fun. Because they're not. Majority of missions in Wings of Liberty is various variations on:
a) timed missions b) escort missions
Now I analyzed the RTS market with a team of Cheerleaders. They came to one, unanimous conclusion: that if I let them go, they won't tell nobody... oh wait, started channeling redlettermedia there. Let's try that again. I analyzed the RTS market with the power of Internet all on my own in my small, dark, cold and damp basement and came to the following conclusion: that when it comes to RTS games, but also most of other games in general, majority of people doesn't like:
a) timed missions b) escort missions
Oh...
But hey, maybe it's not so bad. How many timed and escort missions could there be in SC2, anyway?
Wasteland - Normal Outlaws - Normal Zero Hour - Normal
*The Evacuation - timed, escort *Outbreak - double timed (is the night over yet? zzz) *Safe Haven - timed, escort / *Heaven's Fall - escort (I guess you could just let all the colonies get infested. But that's lame and could make the mission unwinnable on higher difficulties)
*Smash and Grab - timed The Dig - Normal *The Moebius Factor - timed *Supernova - timed Maw of the Void - Normal
evil's Playground - timed *Welcome to the Jungle - timed (Tal'Darim sealing altars) Breakout - Normal / Ghost of a Chance - Normal
*The Great Train Robbery - timed *Cutthroat - timed *Engine of Destruction - timed, escort Media Blitz - Normal *Piercing the Shroud - Normal(first half)/timed(second half)
Whispers of Doom - Normal A Sinister Turn - Normal Echoes of the Future - Normal In Utter Darkness - Normal
*Gates of Hell - timed Belly of the Beast - Normal / Shatter the Sky - Normal All-In - technically Escort, but your base is more likely to fall before the artifact does, so Normal
Out of 26 missions in the game, 13 - half - are either timed or escort missions. The kind that nobody likes. Why, Blizzard? It's because Blizzard has a fundamental misunderstanding about what makes playing an RTS fun. In multiplayer it's the challenge. But in single player mode it's almost the opposite. People who play campaigns in RTSes usually don't do it for the challenge, but to get a story and because the mechanics are fun. They're usually phlegmatic kind of guys, who will replay it multiple times and proud themselves on discovering that if you position an artillery unit on that ledge over there in mission seventeen you will be able to destroy three energy generators in the enemy base - amazing, eh? These guys don't approach missions as a challenge of clicking fast and accurately, but as a puzzle to be solved. What is the best strategy in that mission? They will usually spend a lot of time just sitting in their base, waiting until everything is researched, building up defensive structures, then a large army and only then rolling out on the map in one slow push, systematically destroying everything. And as you can imagine, they don't really like missions which force them to act quickly. I know because I'm one of these guys.
You see it's quite disappointing because Blizzard themselves said that it's pointless to make the campaign a tutorial for the multiplayer, and yet that's exactly what they did. At least the campaign is much better preparation for MP than, say, Warcraft 3's. If it wasn't for SP-exclusive units, playing the campaign on higher difficulties would be a pretty good way to get started in multiplayer because you need to hurry and micro a lot. So I guess they might have wanted to make the SP part more SP but didn't have any idea what makes SP fun in the first place.
Another reason why timed/escort missions suck in Wings of Liberty is that there's a ton of units available with tons of upgrades. Yet you're never really allowed to have fun with them. Theoretically you should be able to do so in remaining 13 "Normal" missions, but: three of these are tutorial missions where you can barely build anything anyway and four of these are Protoss missions. That leaves 6. Out of these, All-In and The Dig are defensive so you're not likely to attack anyone outside your base with anything, Piercing the Shroud is a dungeon crawl(and so is Belly of the Beast if you pick it), and in Maw of the Void you're forced to use Battlecruisers. In the end, at most there are two(!) missions in the game where you're allowed to have fun with all your shiny units with shiny upgrades you spent a fortune on: Media Blitz and Shatter the Sky, latter of which you're unlikely to pick for storyline reasons. So that's basically... only Media Blitz where you can finally check out if your Wraiths really do evade 20% attacks when cloaked and other funky stuff. Lameness.
A minor note, but it's quite funny: Pretty much every unit which returns from SC/BW is better than its new counterpart in SC2. Goliaths and Wraiths are better than Vikings, Medics are better than Medivacs, Vultures are better than Hellions and so on.
Speaking of upgrades, it's disappointing that many of them are multiplayer upgrades you're forced to buy in the Armory instead of simply researching them in their respective research buildings. Was it really so hard to come up with two new additions to every unit? Some of units start fully upgraded and have two special Armory upgrades(like Reapers), some don't. I don't really understand the reasnoning behind that. And why Ghosts don't have the EMP, not even as an Armory upgrade? Considering how useful it is in multiplayer... you can't tell me it's too unbalanced, Spectres get a three second long AoE stun without spending a single credit! Research upgrades are cooler and more unique, but some of them are really silly or just useless(Shrike Turret and Predator for example). And I can't just put my finger on it, but I think the whole idea could have been handled better. Get points, every 5 points you unlock upgrades... that's okay, but Blizzard usually spends a lot of time polishing their games so "just okay" is surprising.
Since we're on Hyperion, let's talk about it. What is it, mechanics-wise? Well, it's basically a giant turd on your way to play the game. Because every time you want to continue your progress, you need to first load the Hyperion... actually, wait. First you need to wait for the auto-patcher to contact the Blizzard server in case there's another patch out that will ruin all your single player saves. Once that's done, you need to wait for the dynamic menu to load. Then you click the continue campaign button, which means you now need to wait for Hyperion to load, and once that's loaded, you spend entire ten seconds there because that's how long it will take you to go to the Star Map, select a mission and click "Launch".
Man, and to think Brood War launches so fast that you can't even see the Loading screen.
Eventually you learn to turn off the game before talking to anyone after a mission since then at least you have an excuse to load the 3D briefing menu that Hyperion is. But no, really. Can you name one thing about the Hyperion that couldn't be done with Starcraft-style 2D screen? Why is it even 3D in the first place? Just like the non-linear campaign, this is more taking of a feature and then failing to utilize any of its strong points. At the very least they could let you walk around the ship yourself, but no, you only click the buttons to move between 3D set pieces. In other words, there is no reason AT ALL for all this to be in 3D and take minutes to load. It could have been talking portraits just like in days of yore and it would have worked exactly the same...
Now this is a fair warning. I'm starting to talk about graphics now. If you're still reading this for some reason, now it's your last chance to stop and do something productive with your life. No? Okay. Here we go.
...just like REST OF THE GAME. Now I know that making a 3D game today is almost obligatory, even if it's a strategy game like Civilization it must be 3D or no one will buy it. Though this is a game by a company with practically infinite money, with huge recognition and enough hype for a Call of Duty 11. As unlikely as it would be, they COULD make it 2D(or at least release some kind of ESPORTS MODE which would be 2D overlay) and it would still sell millions. But as I said, making 3D games today is an obligation so I won't dwell further on the issue. What I will dwell on, hovewer, is graphics style and audio.
It is one of Internet's greatest ironies that while Diablo 3 was being jumped on by thousands of nerds who were calling it a WoW clone simply because Blizzard dared to introduce things like ambient light from torches, the shift to cartoon-ish graphics in Starcraft 2 went almost completely unnoticed. Now the shift itself is not entirely unexpected as the same thing happened to Warcraft 3. Hovewer there is a subtle difference between Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 2: Warcraft 3 is a FANTASY game and follows a series of FANTASY games whose graphics were almost just as cartoony. Starcraft 2 on the other hand is SCIENCE FICTION and follows Starcraft and Brood War which were SCIENCE FICTION and only slightly cartoony(if at all) and even that was a result of the technical limitations more than deliberate design. Otherwise... well I wouldn't call them gritty, and some liberies were taken for the sake of gameplay(Battlecruisers and Carriers as buildable units) but it was a pretty solid science fiction.
Let's consider the Siege Tank as an example. In SC/BW, it's a tank with the siege mode added on. All siege mode does is extend the supports - quite reasonable - and basically turns the barrel(s) around to fire from the other end - not quite as reasonable but a pretty cool idea. Now how exactly the same unit works in SC2? First of all, the turret was made comically huge. Then additional set of tracks was added on the sides, like these bikes for kids with support wheels. But the worst of all is the siege mode - changing the barrel geometry is not a big deal, though definitely less interesting than the original breech reversal. Hovewer the supports now extend from these silly little extra tracks, which retract inside the hull, while the main tracks extend to the sides and life the entire tank up by around a meter or so. Now excuse me but this is retarded on so many levels that I need to spend a while talking about it. Just what the hell would lifting what is now na artillery piece up by one meter achieve? Artillery, by definition, is an indirect fire weapon so elevation is almost completely IRRELEVANT. Not to mention that after all that nonsense you actually REDUCED the area in which the tank touches the ground. You did the complete opposite of what extending the supports was supposed to achieve, that is reduce the point ground pressure when firing the siege cannon. And what do you mean the side tracks retract INSIDE the vehicle? What is there a bunch of empty space inside just for that? Where does that fat guy inside fits in then? You redesigned the entire unit and all you've achieved is stripping it of all pretense of realism and turned it into a toy, a LEGO toy. Not even LEGO Technic toy, this is some Duplo shit! What about the Goliath? THAT is one of the most bad-ass units in Starcraft? It looks like an outhouse on legs. And who is that fatso inside? THAT is one of the most bad-ass unit voices/portraits in Starcraft? How could you possibly fuck it up SO BADLY?
Protoss units aren't much better. The cybernetic theme is almost completely gone, instead Protoss now utilize flimsy, delicate elf-like design. Hey Blizzard, you know what was the defining feature of Protoss in SC? Strong, but more importantly, TOUGH units. Almost all Protoss units have tons of HP and at least 1 Armor. Zealot, most basic Protoss unit, has more HP than a fucking TANK. But I guess that's too non-standard for all the casuals you're aiming for with this game. They can't get anything more complicated than humans-bugs-elves. Good fucking job, Blizzard. Keep pissing in your own cornflakes. At least Zerg got away relatively undumbed, as it's hard to fuck up a race of alien bugs.
Units that are new are even worse. Now I don't want to hate on Blizzard too much for actually adding in new units, because people already bitch that "Starcraft 2 is just Starcraft in 3D" so I won't ask stupid questions like "If these Colossi were on Aiur all along, why didn't they help fighting against the Overmind" or "How the heck all three races managed to completely change most of their standing forces in just four years" and finally "If Protoss did change most of their units in just four years, how come they didn't change them ever again in hundreds of years before they took the last stand against the Hybrid". Making sequels is a bitch, you want to add new stuff but you have to find a way to explain why old stuff is now the new stuff which almost never works. No hate there.
But the mechanics of the units themselves? Hooo boy.
First of all, the units are obviously designed for multiplayer. That means instead of creating three distinct races and then designing units based on the "personalities" of the races, they made a bunch of units based on what the race needs in multiplayer to be competetive at any stage in the game. Example. In Starcraft, Terran units were mostly based on what actually exists: Infantry with assault rifles. Medics. Infantry with flamethrowers. Tanks. Fighters. Dropships. At no point they started adding in stupid crap like jetpack-equipped dual-pistol-wielding infantry, because that would be simply silly and unbelievable. But because design in SC2 started with multiplayer, and they wanted terran to be able to harass from the early stages of the game, they designed this abortion of a unit which feels as if it's straight from some badly written fanfic. Viking, another example. Why would you make a mech that turns into a plane? Would you rather just have better mech and better plane separately? But for some match balance reasons I can't even comprehend they decided it would be best to have an unit that only attacks ground when on the ground, and only attacks air when in the air, and thus Viking was born. Defying all common sense, but since when gameplay mechanics adhere to common sense?
Finally I wanted to talk about dumbing down of the new units. We'll use Colossus as an example here. Colossus is obviously a Shuttle Reaver, except as a single unit so it's much easier to pull off and some nerfs were done so it won't be so extremely damaging/unbeatable in the right hands. Shuttle Reaver harass was extremely dangerous and could easily win you the game - if you did it right. And it was really damn hard to do it right with siege tanks, mines you can't see and Missile Turrets. Obviously Blizzard wanted to make Starcraft 2 more accessible so such dangerous extremes were removed from the game. There are many more examples of that line of thought, for example Spider Mines were completely removed from the game; Immortals were put in as a means of dealing with Siege Tanks lines; Queens were added to make management of the Zerg's "third resource" easier. A lot of improvements were done to the interface, insanely overpowered spells were removed from the game, and the game even auto-micros for you to a certain extent. And that's why Starcraft 2 will never be played as competetively as Brood War. It's simply too easy. One could say that only recently Brood War was truly mastered, over a decade after it was released. Starcraft played on professional level is a very hard game, personally I believe it's hardest game ever made. And that's what makes it such a competetive hit, because there's always the next peak to climb. Game as user-friendly as Starcraft 2 will be mastered quickly, players will quickly reach limits of the game and it will die just like all the other RTSes.
Well said, but honestly I failed to see much said that hasn't been said before, with two notable exceptions.
One being that the units and the feel surrounding the races no longer fits them. The Terrans feel to "clean", the Terrans of SC EPI were so strange for me, because I guess I was swept up in the clean future as presented in Star Wars and especially Star Trek, yet here come these men who look rough and give the feel of a true badass, as in a man who can survive, who is tough, and these rough people were about a thousand times cooler that the men of other SCI-FIs.
Now this may be a personal choice but I don't have much gripe with the concept of a prophecy, maybe it is because I am a mystically inclined and religious person, and I can accept that certain things can be seen by extremely intelligent and wise entities as inevitable, certain things in the universe will have to happen because of the inexorable after effects of the past that will come to pass.... one day. Agreed this is all mystical and ethereal but the Protoss and the Xel'Naga are exactly that, so it fits them.But these entities can't truly see the future, they can see what the future will be about, due to their unimaginable (but still not endless) level of awareness of the present and the past, so for example no one could see that the Ultraulisk progenitor race will be found by the swarm, found worthwhile, swallowed and mutated in that exact way so they can than draw them on a cave wall (this is the second thing I found interesting), such level of detail in a prophecy would require omnivision, which means that you are aware of everything happening in existence and not only that but also the complete knowledge of the past, down to the smallest detail, which is something only a true God, like the one you pray to, can achieve.
Before you say anything about the level of detail in the Overmind's vision, that he saw exactly how the future will play out in smallest details, including the look of the hybrids and the world they will fight on, the actual place and the final outcome... let me explain. First I think the visual part of the Overmind's prophecy was there for the players benefit, and to smoothly lead us into the last mission. What I think the Overmind foresaw was that the Fallen One will return as he probably knew of him when he absorbed the Xel'Naga, so he knows a lot about him,like what's he about, he knew he will want to make the hybrids as perversions of themselves and use them as a weapon, knowing the Fallen One so well the Overmind will also know that the he will destroy all he finds unworthy, that coupled with his knowledge of the Protoss he can foresee that inevitably the Protoss will be forced into a final confrontation with the Fallen One after which the universe will be remade in the Fallen Ones image. About him knowing about the fall of the Terrans (assuming that is not a part of the visualization for the players benefit) there are several possible explanations:
First. The race exterminated before the Protoss is some generic race that the Overmind foresaw will become entangled in the conflict as he will need psionics and then this was turned to Terrans for the visualization.
Second he may have been aware of the humans for a long time, with his deep space probes and realized that because he needs psionics he will attack them and this led to the prophecy or perhaps even a change in it,prophecy may not be constant but an ever evolving prophecy that becomes more detailed as it ages.
And last idea and the simplest is that the prophecy was only realized after he attacked the humans.
I have decided to edit the OP to reflect some of the things that were stated by people which opened my eyes, I will not blatantly steal these things, I will add them at the end and say that this was brought to my attention by other people.
On September 20 2010 19:22 Perscienter wrote: The Diablo 2 cinematics? Do you mean those?
Video and audio are asynchronous.
Noone cares for the protagonist, because he's weak and doesn't accomplish anything besides whining.
The protagonist frees Baal without any explanation.
The protagonist once doesn't sleep for two weeks. What?
Diablo looks like a dinosaur.
The lesser evils cooperate with Diablo and noone knows why.
Diablo is slain. But what happens to his soulstone?
etc...
Are you serious?
1) uhh...my audio and video were fine, I've never noticed any problems. And I've played on many different computers.
2) In D2 we don't get the typical "knight in shining armor" protagonist. Instead, we get a regular guy that's caught in the middle of PURE HELL happening around him. He acts accordingly. Personally I consider this one of the story's greatest strengths.
3) When you're scared to death and you don't know who to trust, you do some pretty strange things. I don't think any of his actions were that hard to understand.
4) Diablo looks like a dinosaur..........is this a serious argument?
5) The High Heavens and the Burning Hells have been warring for eons, why is this confusing?
6) At the end of the game it clearly shows Diablo and Mephisto's soulstones being destroyed at the Hellforge.
etc...
1.
@0:52 for example
2 and 3. A regular guy, who deliberately frees Baal. Without any reason. There is no excuse for this.
4. The same video at 2:34 and 2:54. It's personal opinion.
5. Confusing is, that the prime evils were cast away because of a civil war in hell. That is known as the dark exile. In Diablo 2 no explanation is given, why this has probably ended.
On September 25 2010 07:38 nemanja1503 wrote:Well said, but honestly I failed to see much said that hasn't been said before, with two notable exceptions.
Yes, I posted it without reading most of the thread so it was kind of embarassing to read it later on and notice everyone pointed out that stuff already... ooops. I guess that's just goes to show how blatant these problems are!
One the biggest reasons why I thought the campaign was shitty was because they basically removed all elements of Kerrigan's awesomeness.
None of her awesomeness came back in SC2. What did she do? She shot.....what looked like a gust of wind...and had like....5 lines? Her character was completely trashed and I felt like there was no justice to the greatest Queen in the history of history.
i really just dont get this post. ok sure, acturus lost his marbles. but i kind liked the ending, kerrigan is saved. that it! the finishing is exactly how its supposed to go. so wat if u dont want this to happen, you know, it doesnt really matter!!!
Part of what I liked in SC1 was that not every bit of dialogue needed some overly dramatic larger than life goal or obvious point. Take the first appearance of Kerrigan for example.
She doesn't need any kind of big explosive entrance. She just starts talking about strategy right away and the choices of words and the tone of voice let you start figuring out the person. At least for me that works far, far better than just zooming in and creating some drama of epic proportions right away. Even if a lot of the character details will remain somewhat unexplained thorough the storyline, it's definitely a lot better than just having bland and predictable characters like SC2 does. Often the mystery around the characters even adds up to the whole situation far better than just explaining things directly.
On September 26 2010 11:04 FlaShFTW wrote: i really just dont get this post. ok sure, acturus lost his marbles. but i kind liked the ending, kerrigan is saved. that it! the finishing is exactly how its supposed to go. so wat if u dont want this to happen, you know, it doesnt really matter!!!
Evidently it does, because people dislike it.
Birthday, that was a nice read, and I agree with a fair amount of it.
I can handle bad writing or voice acting in some parts, thats to be expected from a video game
I am just almost depressed that the story is going to be another "lets all band together against this GREAT EVIL!" which is utterly stupid, not exciting as it was in Warcraft 3
Blizzard has a REAL problem with letting races in these games simply disagree on whatever and wage war, they need the boogieman, there needs to be someone of pure evil (and only evil) to fight against.
This is why they pussyfied (no offense to anyone) the Orcs in Warcraft 3, they did it again to Undead in WoW by trying to make most of them "good and missunderstood) and they will do it to Zerg next expansion
What is the goddamn problem with just letting Orcs be Orcs? Or Zerg just having their leader who has his own agenda and is actually a Zerg? I am sick and tired of Kerrigan and Terrans in general, i dont even want to see her or Raynor and his crew of bums in the next game.
Give us a new Overmind or at least some kind of Zergish leader, some Cerebrates and their own agenda, their own desires and their own will.
Same goes for Protoss, dont goddamn put Raynor there, i dont care about him just give me Protoss, let me enjoy these ******** races instead of giving me these inane, stupid human characters.
And let the goddamn races fight EACH other, there is absolutely no NEED for Burning Legion, Hybrids or whatever, it makes the game lamer.
I wanna see a Orc chop a Humans head off clean, and no that Orc isent corrupted, evil or anything, he is just a fucking ORC!
But really what is the point of whining about it anymore, Blizzard clearly does want Zerg to be more "lol friendly" in HotS and the only reason they turned Kerrigan good (and a little sexy now aswell!) is for players to have someone to lead them through the campaign, who isent aslimy, scary Zerg.
Just put a bikini on her and let her bounce her titties around HotS, you might aswell just butcher it all since they dont seem to care all that much anyway.
well actually i loved the campaign! maybe the story was not the best but it was very fun tho play it! the end was good enough in my opinion. i didn't think about what could eventually happen now where i know this or that. so i still was surprised about the story sometimes. the cinematics where awesome. maybe there could have been more often real cinematics but still, they where amazing.
I have mixed feelings with the campaign. On one side it feels like a great deal of effort went into making nearly every mission distinct in terms of its gameplay. However, the story was a big disappointment and is filled with far more cons than pros.
Pros:
- Nova. One of the few interesting new characters. Also very similar to ghost Kerrigan, which is a very good thing.
- The In Utter Darkness mission. Great setting and very fun.
- Returning to the Hyperion instead of simply going into the next mission.
- Tychus. A generally likeable character and he has a nice voice actor.
Cons:
- Again, Tychus. Despite being a potentially awesome character his story is total shit. Unless I've missed something, he made a deal with Mengsk to assassinate Kerrigan in exchange for his freedom? Wtf, I guess infiltrating Raynor's puny army will somehow be more successful in killing Kerrigan than an entire armada of the dominion, why is an assassin even needed? Why not just kill Raynor -__-?
- The missions with Tosh and Dr.Hanson serve no purpose and are just there as filler. Neither is likely to make any future appearances considering they can both die.
- The artifact missions are painful. I really hate fetch quests, especially those that are incredibly predictable. Every time you go for one of these you face stupid protoss extremists with dialogue that would make you cringe.
- Kerrigan. In the original she established herself as one of the best villains around as far as games go. A total badass character that managed to mastermind a plan to manipulate every faction, and then mercilessly crush them afterwards. The original succeeded beautifully in introducing a likeable hero, taking her away tragically and then reintroducing her as a hated villain. Starcraft II shits all over this. Kerrigan only seems to appear every now and then as shock value for the fans, rather than earning her place in the story as the villain she once was. The final missions were terribly tacked on to the ending. There is no build-up whatsoever. Somehow the relic conveniently washes away the Zerg portion of Kerrigan and makes her human again. Talk about a pitiful downfall (less of course she's still infected >.>)
- Zeratul acts too much like a feeble old man. Also, "Tassssadar!" xD
- Finally, the story generally lacks any form of reversal or plot-twists. When you are given a mission objective expect to be doing what you were briefed on. Unlike in SCI where you would sometimes get the new objective during a mission. There isn't anything shocking to hold the player's interest. Does anyone remember the Broodwar mission with the objective "- kill Fenix"? Now that motivates a player to finish a mission.
I really hope Blizzard can salvage this wreck for HotS
Bacillus: Watching those old briefings and ingame scenes is a real joy, thanks - there's charm and genuineness about the characters...
Raevin: Good points! What you mention is in my opinion part of a much larger problem: Most people who write science fiction with aliens (Star Trek: yes, Dune: no) have no idea how to portray aliens. Invariably, the result is racism at its purest: All aliens of one species are the same. (All Klingons want honour, all Vulcans are logical, and those are their sole defining traits that overshadow everything else.) But not just is the portrayal racist (and I mean 'racist' in a neutral, objective sense: presuming knowledge of someone based solely on their race), but also patronising: Every non-human race really just wants to be more human, or should be. In Star Trek, Spock is repeatedly the butt of jokes to the end of "Oh, Vulcans are really just human after all". The new Star Trek film makes this even worse -- Vulcans are beings of pure logic? Nah, scrap that shit, they're really just like humans with tons of emotions, only they're repressing them. You see, never do the writers attempt to make a species alien and just leave it at that. There's always the inevitable judgement that being alien is not as good as being human, and we are never allowed to just respect alien values, especially if they differ from ours.
This applies to WarCraft exactly: We're not allowed to just have a species of Orcs that eat humans, or Undead who... well, do undead stuff. No. They're all misunderstood and poor erring beings who are really human at heart, and more importantly who want to be human at heart. Hence enter the bogeyman villain so that everyone can unite and learn a lesson about friendship and understanding and everything Sesame Street went on about when we were four.
But now to the main point of my post, which I forgot last time: In Broodwar, do you remember what happens when you keep clicking on Artanis?
2 and 3. A regular guy, who deliberately frees Baal. Without any reason. There is no excuse for this.
The guy who Marius was traveling with for weeks wanted to free this guy. Not only that, it's not like Marius has any idea who this was at the time.
5. Confusing is, that the prime evils were cast away because of a civil war in hell. That is known as the dark exile. In Diablo 2 no explanation is given, why this has probably ended.
5. Confusing is, that the prime evils were cast away because of a civil war in hell. That is known as the dark exile. In Diablo 2 no explanation is given, why this has probably ended.
Andariel and Duriel were never involved in the Dark Exile.
"The night they reached the outskirts Lut Gholein and made camp, the Wanderer inspired in him a dream of Baal's capture and imprisonment in his Soulstone. Against his better judgment, Marius followed the Dark Wanderer into Tal Rasha's tomb. He sensed the changes in the Wanderer as Diablo's spirit gained control. Reaching Tal Rasha's Chamber, Diablo rushed forward to release Baal but was intercepted by the Archangel Tyrael. As the demon and angel fought, Baal used his power of illusion to plead with Marius to release him. Marius pulled Baal's Soulstone that contained the demon's essence from Tal Rasha's ribcage, releasing Baal from his prison."
He knew about Baal being imprisoned in Tal Rasha's body and heart Tyrael's warning.
"Two of the Lesser Evils, Azmodan and Belial, saw the situation as their chance to overthrow the Prime Evils and take control of Hell for themselves. The two Demon Lords made a pact with Andariel and Duriel - as well as their minor brethren - assuring them that humanity would not deter the ultimate victory of Hell. ... As punishment for his part in the Dark Exile that sent the Prime Evils to the mortal realm, Duriel has been left behind by Baal to guard the Tomb of Tal Rasha."
It's just confusing that there is no reporting of the follow-up developments after the dark exile has ended. Azmodan and Belial would probably be very upset about Diablo's return.
Digging in my mind here, but doesnt Izual (spelling?) state that the dark exile was completely engineered? So Azmodan and Belial wouldnt be all that upset tbh.
I think the point here is that Blizzard, historically, is able to consistently create epic storylines that earned the respect of the game community in the past. SC2 is just an odd ball in the bunch that leave Blizzard fanboys confused and unhappy.
On August 04 2010 14:47 TriniMasta wrote: always knew Tychus was a douchebag, I think the campaign is a bit too short. after seeing what happened to the zerg after the All-in mission (or at least most of it), Idk how anyones going to want to play Zerg in the campaign, especially without it's main leader
I personally see this as an opportunity for the Terran and Zerg to work together to help combat the Hybrids. What I think blizzard did by giving Kerrigan back to the Terran (and specifically Jim Raynor) was the transfer of command of the Zerg forces under the Queen of Blades to Raynor's movement. It never said or even implied that Kerrigan would be losing control of the Swarm, in fact I think that will be exactly what blizzard will try to avoid.
This way, Zeratul's warning makes more sense, as the Hybrids won't be seizing control of the Swarm and subsequently using them to assist in their destruction of the other sentient species, and at the same time it gives the combined Terran and Protoss another ally in the war against the Hybrids.
On August 04 2010 14:47 TriniMasta wrote: always knew Tychus was a douchebag, I think the campaign is a bit too short. after seeing what happened to the zerg after the All-in mission (or at least most of it), Idk how anyones going to want to play Zerg in the campaign, especially without it's main leader
I personally see this as an opportunity for the Terran and Zerg to work together to help combat the Hybrids. What I think blizzard did by giving Kerrigan back to the Terran (and specifically Jim Raynor) was the transfer of command of the Zerg forces under the Queen of Blades to Raynor's movement. It never said or even implied that Kerrigan would be losing control of the Swarm, in fact I think that will be exactly what blizzard will try to avoid.
This way, Zeratul's warning makes more sense, as the Hybrids won't be seizing control of the Swarm and subsequently using them to assist in their destruction of the other sentient species, and at the same time it gives the combined Terran and Protoss another ally in the war against the Hybrids.
But wouldn't it be better if Raynor fucked up by de-infesting Kerrigan, because she can't lead the Zerg as a human, so the Hybirds take over the swarm. So the second campaign could be revolving around the Hybrids and their takeover of the swarm. Seeing how, and if, the "good guys" get out of the mess Raynor put them in would be much greater than a good zerg outcome, or so I see it anyway. But don't worry I am 90% certain it will go your way :-(
i lol´d very hard there
When someone who has less troops then you always beats you with ease and completes his objective every time.When in fact Raynor's R. never even suffer a setback in all their fights against the dominion, let alone lose I think that qualifies as WTFPWN.
.... When someone who has less troops then you always beats you with ease and completes his objective every time.When in fact Raynor's R. never even suffer a setback in all their fights against the dominion, let alone lose I think that qualifies as WTFPWN.
True, I want to see more people die For example, Horner could've died an epic death.
Swann could've died an epic death.
That stupid scientist dude REALLY should've died a horrible death.
Maybe Raynor could've lost an arm/leg/ear/whatever in an epic fight.
But noooooooooooooooooooooo everyone lives ... Even Kerrigan isn't really dead, instead she's back with the good guys, way to go blizzard. Ruining a badass unrelenting ruthless killer villain.
Goddamned.
Where's the fun in that? :s (Except Tichus, but I think he could've died a better death, getting owned like that... tsk tsk tsk)
On September 26 2010 16:58 Bacillus wrote: Part of what I liked in SC1 was that not every bit of dialogue needed some overly dramatic larger than life goal or obvious point. Take the first appearance of Kerrigan for example.
She doesn't need any kind of big explosive entrance. She just starts talking about strategy right away and the choices of words and the tone of voice let you start figuring out the person. At least for me that works far, far better than just zooming in and creating some drama of epic proportions right away. Even if a lot of the character details will remain somewhat unexplained thorough the storyline, it's definitely a lot better than just having bland and predictable characters like SC2 does. Often the mystery around the characters even adds up to the whole situation far better than just explaining things directly.
oh my god, just watching that clip over again and listening to the voice acting. Arcturus' lines are incredible and sooo well delivered.
"I'm not askin' you to like it... I'm askin' you to DO IT."
Someone must show up at this year's Starcraft Story Panel at Blizzcon on October 22/23 and tell that asshole Metzen his story SUCKS!!!! and that he ruined the Starcraft lore.
Just like this one time:
Unfortunately I'm not in the USA so it falls upon you, fellow TeamLiquid'ers to make the epicness happen. We will be expecting a full report.
As for the event itself, here's the info:
"The Starcraft II team will be delivering a story panel at the show, where fans will be able to ask the team what’s next for Starcraft II. “We will be featuring a Q&A to talk about story,” says Chris, “but that will largely just to tie up any loose ends and questions players have about what was happening during the story. We won’t be going into details about what’s going to happen in Heart of the Swarm.”
Blizzcon takes place over the weekend of October 22nd and 23rd, at the Anaheim Convention Centre. PC Gamer will be there. "
On August 04 2010 12:26 Backpack wrote: Mengsk never wanted tychus to sabotage raynor's "revolution"
He wanted to use Raynor to fight the zerg and then have Tychus kill both the queen of blades and the terrorist who he no longer has use for.
The only part I really agree with in your post is about the audio file causing mass riots, that is stretching it a bit.
Yep. Also, an audio signal in the future may be encrypted with special protocol signatures that cannot be broken by their technologies, and which verify the location/date of the recording etc.
And, really, go through the campaigns of SC1 and BW. Go now, and not relying on the idealistic memory from your youth. The "This is Jimmy" guy back then wasn't too much deeper, in fact on some occasions the new Raynor seems to have matured in comparison. Same goes for Mengsk; he was so blatantly manipulative back then, in a very shallow way.
The missions in the new and old SC are mostly to introduce the tech gradually, rather than the plot. (a tradition dating back to Dune 2) There are certainly filler missions in the original game too.
What bothers me though, is that the WoL campaign didn't have enough surprising mission goals. That's probably what bores most hardcore fans (subconsciously?). In the original, you would go do something, and mid-way the mission would change completely to something else. Some of this spirit is kept with the bonus goals, but not as radical.
it's strange how in the first days after the release , everybody was saying that how great this campaign is ," best campaign and story ever and thins like that", now everyobody sees the truth, and maybe after some time they will notice also the game itself
p.s ghostunit omg , it's so awsome that vod u post , indeed everithing is stolen from mass effect 2, even the walking and talking in the hyperion
On October 10 2010 08:18 sTARdasH wrote: Ok , i would like to add my 2c.
First off , as far as WC3 goes , i think they did a splendid job at showing races fight eachother . They slapped eachother senceless .... Then they banded 2gether for one battle , and continued to slap eachother afterwards .
The undead splintered into two factions , the one thats still undeadish and whatnot and the other one that has independent thought , iirc they wage war against eachother .
SO basicly . Inner war ===>>> save the planet ===>>> inner war
Now onto sc2 . I think Mengsk played Raynor and that it will show . As far as we know [the secret mission ]the Dominion has been experimenting on creating Hybrids themselves and whats more valuable then a perfect terran-zerg hybrid . Raynor is also Kerrigans soft spot , she let him live multiple times in sc1 and thats why Mengsk played him as a card . As it stands now Raynors Raiders and Kerrigan are sorounded by half the Dominion armed forces .....
Furthermore , he also might have let the so called "uprising" take place to give him an exuse to crush any and all oposition and maybe even start a war with the Kell-Morians and Umojans . Some people got upset and burned stuff , who gives a rats ass . Basicly thru Tychus Mengsk learned : Raynors capabilities , who his backers are , what are their capabilities and most importantly he got Kerrigan .
I bet that HoTS is gonna start with Kerrigan tryin to escape the Dominion forces and create a zerg army to do whatever.....
As far as Raynors character goes , hes a freekin drunk . Hes a lovesick drunk who has witnessed many shitty situations . Ofc he is gonna seem random alot of time .
Bottom line is , Mengsk let all of this happen . Who do you think the civilians will praise for Kerrigans downfall ?? Raynor ?? hell no , hes gonna end up in New-Folsom
Thats how i understood the story at least . Then again i might overthink things and the story is the cliche "Ameriiiicaaaaa . FUCK YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!"
On October 05 2010 21:33 lastreason wrote: it's strange how in the first days after the release , everybody was saying that how great this campaign is ," best campaign and story ever and thins like that", now everyobody sees the truth, and maybe after some time they will notice also the game itself
p.s ghostunit omg , it's so awsome that vod u post , indeed everithing is stolen from mass effect 2, even the walking and talking in the hyperion
No, it's really not strange at all. 1.5 million bought it on day one, and the game and campaign were good according to many of the user comments and metacritic etc...
Hardly anyone sticks around to argue over a game that they liked.
For everyone complaining about the "happy ending", I'm pretty sure Jimmy and Sarah aren't going to have a happy ending.
She's the Chosen One, and she has to go back to her Swarm or the Xel'naga wipe everything out. Jimmy's gonna have to watch her get zergified all over again.
Oh man, watching Bacillus' video made me mad. The lines and acting are uncomparably better than SC2.
I don't understand. Did the SC2 writing staff think the Starcraft univers didn't have well-enough defined villans, heros and themes? Did they get ambitious and decide they knew better and wanted to start from scratch?
The entirety of WoL feels like a reboot. Wiping out all the brilliant backstory from SC1 and BW so they can tell their own crappy story. Instead of building on the past they introduced new, hollow characters and didn't draw on any previous character development. How frustrating.
The writers should be locked in a room with SC1 and BW for a month until they can recite every line and care about the characters as much as we do.