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On August 10 2010 00:25 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 00:23 lepape wrote: BW had it's flaws (I dont remember half the story, that shows how meaningless it was), but it was still entertaining and it had some good dramatic twists.
I liked DuGalle and Stukov characters a lot, and overall they did a good job with Kerrigan, I also think putting the UED on the center stage instead of Raynor was a good idea. The UED coming in as the extremely powerful force, and getting totally crushed by the end of the game, it shows just how Kerrigan was controlling the Galaxy and how well she could manipulate her foes. It really sets the tone for SC2, that's she's the ultimate threat.
In WoL, although the story may be better (it's close, both storyline had majors flaws), they really scrapped the Arcturus and Kerrigan characters, if anyone thought they didnt have much depth to begin with, in WoL they're more shallow than ever. And the whole plottwist with Tychus working for Mengks doesn't make any sense. At all. It makes perfect sense: Mengsk tells him he can go free, he just has to help neutralize Kerrigan, and also Raynor. He obviously can't do this until Raynor purifies Kerrigan, then he can take both out. But hes obviously hesitant about it because he gives Raynor so much time to act.
Meanwhile, Tychus helped Raynor steal the Odin, devastate part of his army, broadcast the message on his own stations, why would he let him do that?
So Arcturus knew about the artifact, why didnt he get the artifact himself, and send Tychus just to kill Raynor? Also, Raynor already wanted to kill Kerrigan in the first place, the fact he was told about the artifacts and their power (by Valerian) made him want to purify her, instead of killing her.
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The campaign read like a B movie to me. All the characters were really cheesy and one dimensional. Listening to Raynor's speech at the end reminded me very heavily of Bill Pullman's speech in Independence Day. I don't know if it's just been the better part of a decade since I played the SC and BW campaigns but I remember them being a lot deeper and more interesting. When I'm playing a game, watching a movie, or reading a book I need to like at least one character to really get into the story and Wings of Liberty didn't have anyone I liked.
That aside, the missions were pretty fun to play. I was just expecting more. I don't know about anyone else, but I was really pissed off when the artifact actually worked. I was expecting some grand cataclysmic failure that pointed toward the next expansion, with Kerrigan still at the head of the swarm. I still have hope that things aren't as optimistic as they seem.
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On August 09 2010 23:38 PanzerDragoon wrote: Raynor knows he can't kill Kerrigan after the Zeratul missions. He's smart enough to drop his revenge and petty conflicts.
Did you even play the Toss missions or what?
Too bad this is never mentioned.
Not once.
Seriously, you go through the main part of the plot (artifacts + Char) and there's never even one mention of all these side missions. Raynor's sole motivation is to save Kerrigan because of their damn sappy love story, not because she's actually needed to help save anything.
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On August 10 2010 00:37 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 00:25 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 10 2010 00:23 lepape wrote: BW had it's flaws (I dont remember half the story, that shows how meaningless it was), but it was still entertaining and it had some good dramatic twists.
I liked DuGalle and Stukov characters a lot, and overall they did a good job with Kerrigan, I also think putting the UED on the center stage instead of Raynor was a good idea. The UED coming in as the extremely powerful force, and getting totally crushed by the end of the game, it shows just how Kerrigan was controlling the Galaxy and how well she could manipulate her foes. It really sets the tone for SC2, that's she's the ultimate threat.
In WoL, although the story may be better (it's close, both storyline had majors flaws), they really scrapped the Arcturus and Kerrigan characters, if anyone thought they didnt have much depth to begin with, in WoL they're more shallow than ever. And the whole plottwist with Tychus working for Mengks doesn't make any sense. At all. It makes perfect sense: Mengsk tells him he can go free, he just has to help neutralize Kerrigan, and also Raynor. He obviously can't do this until Raynor purifies Kerrigan, then he can take both out. But hes obviously hesitant about it because he gives Raynor so much time to act. Meanwhile, Tychus helped Raynor steal the Odin, devastate part of his army, broadcast the message on his own stations, why would he let him do that? So Arcturus knew about the artifact, why didnt he get the artifact himself, and send Tychus just to kill Raynor? Also, Raynor already wanted to kill Kerrigan in the first place, the fact he was told about the artifacts and their power (by Valerian) made him want to purify her, instead of killing her. Because the ends justify the means? Also we have no idea what Mengsk's motivations are yet. Hell, he could be influenced by Duran for all we know.
Dumb to make conclusions after seeing 1 part of a trilogy
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On August 10 2010 02:26 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 23:38 PanzerDragoon wrote: Raynor knows he can't kill Kerrigan after the Zeratul missions. He's smart enough to drop his revenge and petty conflicts.
Did you even play the Toss missions or what? Too bad this is never mentioned. Not once. Seriously, you go through the main part of the plot (artifacts + Char) and there's never even one mention of all these side missions. Raynor's sole motivation is to save Kerrigan because of their damn sappy love story, not because she's actually needed to help save anything. ...what
Zeratul even says it, and Raynor knows it. You are being dense on purpose just to bash the game.
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On August 10 2010 02:57 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 02:26 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 09 2010 23:38 PanzerDragoon wrote: Raynor knows he can't kill Kerrigan after the Zeratul missions. He's smart enough to drop his revenge and petty conflicts.
Did you even play the Toss missions or what? Too bad this is never mentioned. Not once. Seriously, you go through the main part of the plot (artifacts + Char) and there's never even one mention of all these side missions. Raynor's sole motivation is to save Kerrigan because of their damn sappy love story, not because she's actually needed to help save anything. ...what Zeratul even says it, and Raynor knows it. You are being dense on purpose just to bash the game.
You're not thinking about what I said at all. Stop, breathe, and actually digest what I'm saying.
Yes, Zeratul says all this prophecy mumbo jumbo. But when it actually comes to the decisions (when the idea of going to Char and that entire part of the story comes up), this prophecy is never mentioned once. Raynor doesn't mention to anyone, "Hey, you remember that prophecy I saw? The one that says we need to save Kerrigan or else the galaxy will be destroyed? Yea, that's why we're going."
Instead, he just says, "This is how it is, follow orders", without showing any kind of inner turmoil whatsoever, just running off to save his girlfriend.
Because the ends justify the means? Also we have no idea what Mengsk's motivations are yet. Hell, he could be influenced by Duran for all we know.
Dumb to make conclusions after seeing 1 part of a trilogy
Stop throwing out this pathetic excuse.
Being one part of a larger story DOES NOT pardon an entire stand-alone game for having a completely terrible story. If the Fellowship of the Ring was terrible, it wouldn't be excused just because it was part of a trilogy.
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On August 09 2010 17:24 Silu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 15:31 Fanatic-Templar wrote: StarCraft has never been really strong on character development. I am not kidding when I say that Aldaris is the only Protoss character to ever get any development. Perhaps Zeratul gets some from killing Raszagal, I haven't seen enough of him yet to be certain. None of the Zerg characters develop either, though there are few enough of them. Really, Kerrigan and Raynor are the only characters to have any depth or development. And Aldaris. I agree with your posts completely, except for this. What kind of character development does Aldaris get? He's just bitching about everything at every turn. He's just there to be the voice of the common masses of the high-and-mighty Khalai opposing the alliance with the Dark Templar. He's complaining about what needs to be done at every turn. Except once, after which he betrays everyone, in a kind of weird way and timing. I never even thought of him as a character, just someone who had to be put there to represent the common opinions of the Aiur Protoss. Rightfully, Tassadar, Zeratul and even Artanis going from a zealot-like "I-do-what-my-heroes-tell-me-to" to actually having an opinion and actions of his own get much more development.
Aldaris starts off as a meddling executive and superior, somewhat like Duke when you're still working for the Confederacy in the early Terran missions. He's a self-important tyrannical authority with warped priorities and more interest in the preservation of the Conclave's influence than actually saving the Protoss race. He ends up betraying you (well, technically you betray the Conclave, but as we know Tassadar was right all along) and it looks like he's going to play a role similar to Arcturus Mengsk's, right until the last mission. I really like comparing Aldaris' final speech to Arcturus', because they both reveal the character's true colours. Arcturus is a power hungry dictator ready to sacrifice anything and anyone to obtain power, but Aldaris really did want what was best for the Protoss, he was simply misguided by overzealous adherence to antiquated traditions.
I say he gets the most development because the realisation of the error of his ways actually causes significant, credible change in his personality. He broadens his perspective, is more open to discussion. He is polite with Zeratul and Razsagal and defers to their wisdom and experience as the situation calls for it.
And Aldaris doesn't betray anybody - we betray him. He discovered that Razsagal was a pawn of Infested Kerrigan, and Razsagal sends you to kill him. He was trying to reveal the truth about Razsagal, which would have prevented the treachery at the end of the Zerg campaign where Zeratul is forced to kill Razsagal, and obviously Kerrigan didn't want that, so she uses her pawn to order us to kill Aldaris. And when Aldaris is about to reveal it, she jumps in and kills him herself.
It is actually an amusing irony, because in the original campaign, it is Aldaris' prejudices against the Dark Templar which causes him to hinder the efforts of Tassadar in trying to save the Protoss from the Overmind. In the expansion, it is our prejudice against Aldaris which is used to hinder his efforts in saving the Protoss from Kerrigan.
Meanwhile, how have Tassadar, Zeratul or Artanis developed? They are identical characters at all stages of the game. Tassadar is still the same idealistic, self-sacrificing noble warrior when he rams the Gantrithor into the Overmind as he was when he argued with the Judicators over the eradication of the Terrans. Same with Zeratul and Artanis, with their respective developments. Artanis at least does not, to my knowledge, develop in the way you ascribe to him. He's always following orders, deferring to others or seeking their approval whenever he wishes to submit an idea. It's really curious that someone with so little authority was chosen to be Hierarch.
On August 09 2010 19:31 Ianuus wrote: IMO it's right that the protoss don't get any character development. After all, they are the mystic, elder and aloof race, so their characters should be already fully developed; this is done well, with distinctive characters already in place for each. They were also right to lump the development onto Raynor and Kerrigan, as they are the ones we most sympathise with.
Oh sure. Just because they don't get development doesn't mean they're not interesting. I also liked some of the Hyperion's crew even though they don't get much depth or character development. And I also somewhat agree with you about Raynor in Wings of Liberty, I really think that the mission order freedom negatively impacts character development. I didn't feel it too much, because the order that I played the missions in gave a reasonable development, but I can understand that for others it'd be unsettling.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: But will it? We know that Kerrigan is the main character for HoS. We know that it's going to be an RPG-style development of her powers and abilities in controlling the Swarm. It doesn't really seem like a whole lot is going to change, and this makes the events of WoL all the more ridiculous.
Yes, I also dread what will happen with Heart of the Swarm. Now, I don't necessarily agree that Kerrigan has to be the main character, obviously Blizzard wouldn't spoil the story and tell us that Kerrigan would no longer be leading the Swarm, but either way has some huge problems - Kerrigan remaining reduces the significance of Wings of Liberty while having nearly anybody else... well, a huge problem with the Zerg campaigns have been the lack of Zerg characters. It would not feel much like a Zerg campaign if you're still riding along with Kerrigan and Raynor and surrounded by Terrans, I'd hope for a more Zerg-centric experience. However, I cannot judge an existing story based on the merits or flaws of an as of yet unreleased sequel.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: It explains how the Protoss got to where they are (actually semi-re-uniting the two factions of Protoss). It also explains how Kerrigan got to where she is as the leader of the Swarm. The UED was an interesting obstacle to this. Ignoring Brood War does definitely leave some significant gaps. As for Kerrigan retreating, this gives Blizzard a big opportunity to do a whole lot of different things with the story, but they completely failed to even explain it in WoL.
Yes, as I said the evacuation of Aiur is the sole significant event. The reunion of the two halves of the Protoss is largely glossed over, however. As for Kerrigan, we already knew she would be leader of the Swarm. How she got there should be weighed on its merits, and the UED has none. Saying that Brood War was significant because Kerrigan fought the UED is like saying the Artifact fragment missions were significant because we fought the Tal'darim. Seriously, when you have things like the Tal'darim or the UED to compare with, I can't imagine how you can say that Kerrigan was the worst villain in the series, let alone of all time.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: But what's going to change? Again, we know Kerrigan is the main character for HoS and that she'll be controlling the Zerg. Furthermore, even if it does have any significance, that doesn't change the fact that it was still horribly written. Significance isn't always good.
True, but insignificance is bad. Brood War was horribly written and insignificant.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:The Temple's purpose was to save the Dark Templar's homeworld. It did something incredibly generic (destroying all life on the planet) as opposed to destroying only Zerg and de-infesting one specific person. Furthermore, what are you going to do, wipe out the entire planet's life every time any Zerg at all land on Shakuras? That's not feasible. You'd have to get every Protoss and get them back into the Temple and set it off. The attack on Shakuras was a quick abduction.
It didn't wipe out all life on the planet. Not only did they not fit the entire Protoss population in that Temple, but the Kakaru were also spared. It is a specifically anti-Zerg weapon. Why or how would the Xel'naga make an anti-Zerg weapon before they got slaughtered by the Overmind? Well, we are talking about a horrible plot device here.
Anyway, there was no point to the Zerg invasion of Shakuras, other than give the Temple a reason to exist, which gave the developers an excuse to fit in the whole Uraj/Khalis missions and actually create a campaign. There is no plot after the second Protoss mission, just an excuse to have more missions.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:At least they were both Terran ingenuity. Terrans have always been known to be resourceful, and they did it in a Terran-esque way. They didn't have to find a super-weapon that did exactly what they've been dreaming of. They invented something to aid them, and it doesn't actually kill anything. The drugging part I have mixed feelings for. It was a rather creative way to do something, and they are biological beings, and they've also had this plan for a long time. At the same time, it is just taking over the Zerg. You'd think an Overmind would be smarter than that.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: They were the real obstacle to Kerrigan. They were also an obstacle to Mengsk. If the UED hadn't destroyed the Dominion, then the Dominion could arguably be more powerful than Kerrigan with so much time of uninterrupted development. And again, they were an interesting obstacle in the story to Kerrigan's power. They weren't made to be this massive force with everlasting repercussions.
"Being an obstacle" gives them the relative importance of the Tal'darim. Or a locked door in an inflitration mission. As I said, a good story would have given her interesting obstacles to overcome, like Daggoth.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Stuff happened in Brood War, it's just that not every single thing from it had overarching consequences. I still don't see how this is a terrible thing. I mean really, if it is, then we've got to point of the vast majority of the missions from WoL that give us the same amount (or less) than their BW counterparts.
No. I've said it multiple times, you can skip Brood War and not miss any important development in the story except the evacuation of Aiur. That means it is an insignificant story. Filler.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: The UED is different than the Dark Voice for two reasons. First, they're humans. From Earth. They aren't just some random, shapeless, Sauron-esque villain, they're Humans from the human home world that have come to take over the Terran Dominion and the sector. They actually have an interesting agenda and goal to get this done. They have character (DuGalle and Stukov) that are actually mildly interesting. Secondly, you actually play as the UED in the Terran campaign. This gets you more involved with them. You see what's going on with the UED.
It really doesn't matter if your cardboard cutout has "human" written on it, or "protoss" or "martian" or "dark elf". It is judged on what it is. Anyway, I too liked DuGalle and Stukov, and the dynamic between the two. I wish they could have been Dominion officers or something instead of being wasted in the meaningless device that was the UED.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: Daggoth would've been an ok villain, sure, but I would much rather have the UED. It was more interesting having humans come from Earth and see them try to crack down with their own agenda. Daggoth would've just done more of the same as the Overmind. You're also confusing the UED's takeover of the Overmind with Kerrigan's control of the Swarm. The UED's control of the Overmind wasn't the natural order of succession - it was supposed to be intrusive, jarring the status quo. And I guess it's better to say "God forbid the Protoss aren't 100% involved in every story" instead of "God forbid Terrans have their own story line", since the Zerg were involved in the Terran one pretty heavily.
Your insistence that being "humans from Earth" somehow conveys meaning to the meaningless is lost on me. I take it then that if instead of having "protoss fanatics" guarding the Artifact fragments, we would have had to fight "humans from Earth" that would somehow have made the campaign better? Again, the UED does not flow into the storyline, and does not flow out. I think you put it best when you said they were an obstacle. they're not a character (in the general way that one could refer to an entire species or organisation as a "character"), they're a wall. Like the Ion Cannon was an obstacle to Raynor's escape from Tarsonis. That's the UED.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote: Kerrigan is an absolutely terrible and one-dimensional character. I don't see how this can be argued. She actually had some kind of personality in Brood War - she was smart, devious, and manipulative. She wasn't a damn Ogre romping around the sector - "ME BAD GUY! SMASH!" And this is basically all we get from her in WoL. Every line is some variation of, "You guys are stupid, I'm so powerful that you're going to die." The only variation is in the prophecy scene (and here I'll mention that prophecies are terrible story devices to begin with), where she says something similar "You/we're going to die", but she adds that she's fine with it.
What?
This completely ignores the Kerrigan from Brood War. She's changed, for no apparent reason, and has zero depth.
The same goes for Arcturus. He goes from being rather similar - he's devious, manipulative, greedy, resourceful, cold, a brilliant tactician (even when losing), and he turns into a bumbling moron that is a clone of the government of the USSR and, worse yet, the Confederacy.
The Kerrigan you describe is the one from StarCraft, not Wings of Liberty. As I said, we barely see her in the game, and when we do we're fighting her. When you've got the entire Zerg Swarm and the enemy has one Battlecruiser, why exactly would you try to be deceitful? She has nothing to gain from it? You're basically accusing her of not being an idiot. Besides, being manipulative and deceitful does not constitute character depth, any more than beating people with a stick does. Both are means to an end. Character depth implies personality, hopes, fears, desires, goals, ambitions. Manipulation is just a chosen weapon. That is why I said that Kerrigan's only demonstration of character depth was when she felt wearied of the slaughter - it demonstrates a conflict of desires, that she can feel guilt and sorrow. When she responds to Raynor after Fenix gets killed, she sounds positively ruffled. So yes, she does have more depth in Brood War, but not for the reason you mentioned. I guess you could say a similar thing when Kerrigan last speaks in the All In mission, revealing a fragment of her longing to be free from the shackles of her Zerg form.
I have no idea why you think Arcturus is a bumbling moron in Wings of Liberty, however.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:I feel like Arcturus and Artanis belong on that list, and Aldaris doesn't. What the fuck does he do? He just constantly bitches, and only looks good when his bitching is finally right (for once).
I've answered this to someone else, but Aldaris belongs here because his character develops. He learns from his experiences and changes his perspective accordingly. Why do you think Arcturus or Artanis belongs on that list? Arcturus might be character development, if you think that he was honest at the beginning when he said he wanted to help people, but I think he was manipulating us all along, which means his character isn't developed, it is revealed. Artanis never does much, and is the least interesting Protoss character, in my opinion.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:None of this is substantial at all for two reasons. First, everything going on in Raynor is almost immediately laid out on the table right at the very beginning. It's very obvious what we're supposed to think about his "moral struggles". It wasn't actually presented in a good way that fit with the story. More importantly, he doesn't actually struggle. All of his decisions are just, "We're doin' this, now." There's no inner conflict or anything. He doesn't have much of a problem doing any of the various missions that you can do, and as soon as Kerrigan's de-infestation is mentioned, he drops everything and goes to save his gal.
I said nothing about struggles or inner conflict, I have no idea what you are responding to.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Now this is where I have to stop. What. The. Fuck? Raynor specifically said that he'll "Be the man that's going to kill you [Kerrigan] someday." But of course, lets drop that entire conflict because he has a chance to get his gal back. Great sappy, ridiculous love story, which completely destroys the potential for an interesting inner conflict where Raynor actually might kill Kerrigan for the things she's done of her own free will, like killing Fenix, Raynor's best friend.
Kerrigan's free will... well, that's an entirely different can of worms.
Anyway, Raynor said he'd kill her in a fit of rage after one of his good friends was murdered by her. Things said under the effects of heavy emotion are not always things you can believe in once your mind clears. I really see nothing surprising about this, I never believed for a second that he would hesitate once offered a chance to save her, it would go against everything we know of his character.
On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:I don't see how Tychus actually developed at all. He had a lot of potential that went nowhere when he was shot in the head.
No? Well, maybe it's just me, reading too much into things. If you want inner struggle, look to Tychus, not Raynor. As I said, I have no idea where you see inner conflict in Raynor, I certainly didn't. But Tychus, you can feel that he doesn't want to do what he has to. And his relation with Raynor is a lot more complex than I would have expected, between the resentment for being locked up while Raynor went free, and genuine liking for his friend. Raynor has grown since then, but Tychus often still sounds like a careless adventurer. He develops from simply working on deals for his own benefit to enjoying Raynor's crusade for Truth and Justice to fighting himself to prevent Raynor from suffering. People have said that Tychus wanted Raynor to shoot him in the final cinematic, and though I can't be sure of that, what is certain is that before that, Tychus kept trying to stop Raynor from going to Char to save Kerrigan. Because he knew that then he would have to make a choice, either kill Kerrigan and break Raynor, or else die. Now that's obvious, but what some people forget to consider is that as long as he didn't kill Kerrigan, he couldn't be free from his suit. So I don't know if he was willing to give his life for Raynor's hopes, but he was certainly willing to give his freedom. Again. At the beginning of the campaign, did it look like Tychus would be willing to do that? I contend that it did not.
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Yes, as I said the evacuation of Aiur is the sole significant event. The reunion of the two halves of the Protoss is largely glossed over, however. As for Kerrigan, we already knew she would be leader of the Swarm. How she got there should be weighed on its merits, and the UED has none. Saying that Brood War was significant because Kerrigan fought the UED is like saying the Artifact fragment missions were significant because we fought the Tal'darim. Seriously, when you have things like the Tal'darim or the UED to compare with, I can't imagine how you can say that Kerrigan was the worst villain in the series, let alone of all time.
Kerrigan wasn't the worst villain in the series. She was fine in BW, but terrible in WoL.
That said, you seem to be putting too much emphasis on the UED. Some things are just that - obstacles. It's fine for the Tal'darim to have merit for just being an obstacle to Raynor. It's fine for the UED to have some merit for just being Kerrigan's enemy. The problem with the Tal'darim is we don't know their goals, their motives, their agenda. We don't know any of that, while we know the UED's. The UED is much more fleshed out than the Tal'darim is.
True, but insignificance is bad. Brood War was horribly written and insignificant.
Again, is WoL any more significant that BW?
It didn't wipe out all life on the planet. Not only did they not fit the entire Protoss population in that Temple, but the Kakaru were also spared. It is a specifically anti-Zerg weapon. Why or how would the Xel'naga make an anti-Zerg weapon before they got slaughtered by the Overmind? Well, we are talking about a horrible plot device here.
From everything I've read, they did get all of the Protoss either off-planet or into Temple, thus it would just wipe out all life on the planet. And I don't think the survival of a map tileset critter counts as too much evidence, not even bringing up the possibility of the Protoss taking care of/breeding animals for the wild in ways that humans can even do today.
Anyway, there was no point to the Zerg invasion of Shakuras, other than give the Temple a reason to exist, which gave the developers an excuse to fit in the whole Uraj/Khalis missions and actually create a campaign. There is no plot after the second Protoss mission, just an excuse to have more missions.
This is just speculation of the point after the fact. Furthermore, like I've been saying, why is this special to point out? WoL did the same thing, except (arguably) worse.
"Being an obstacle" gives them the relative importance of the Tal'darim. Or a locked door in an inflitration mission. As I said, a good story would have given her interesting obstacles to overcome, like Daggoth.
I explained how the UED is a better antagonist than Daggoth. What would Daggoth do? Oh, right, the exact same thing that the Overmind was. Not much of an evolving story.
No. I've said it multiple times, you can skip Brood War and not miss any important development in the story except the evacuation of Aiur. That means it is an insignificant story. Filler.
Again, how is this special or notable to point out when WoL is 2/3rds filler?
It really doesn't matter if your cardboard cutout has "human" written on it, or "protoss" or "martian" or "dark elf". It is judged on what it is. Anyway, I too liked DuGalle and Stukov, and the dynamic between the two. I wish they could have been Dominion officers or something instead of being wasted in the meaningless device that was the UED.
Your insistence that being "humans from Earth" somehow conveys meaning to the meaningless is lost on me. I take it then that if instead of having "protoss fanatics" guarding the Artifact fragments, we would have had to fight "humans from Earth" that would somehow have made the campaign better? Again, the UED does not flow into the storyline, and does not flow out. I think you put it best when you said they were an obstacle. they're not a character (in the general way that one could refer to an entire species or organisation as a "character"), they're a wall. Like the Ion Cannon was an obstacle to Raynor's escape from Tarsonis. That's the UED.
The entire point is that the villain is more fleshed out. There's actual depth and meat to the character(s) on the bad side, compared to Kerrigan (WoL) or the Dark Voice or Sauron. None of these last three have any depth to them whatsoever. No real motives. No agenda. No personality traits even. Just bland, bad guy lines.
The Kerrigan you describe is the one from StarCraft, not Wings of Liberty. As I said, we barely see her in the game, and when we do we're fighting her. When you've got the entire Zerg Swarm and the enemy has one Battlecruiser, why exactly would you try to be deceitful? She has nothing to gain from it? You're basically accusing her of not being an idiot. Besides, being manipulative and deceitful does not constitute character depth, any more than beating people with a stick does. Both are means to an end. Character depth implies personality, hopes, fears, desires, goals, ambitions. Manipulation is just a chosen weapon. That is why I said that Kerrigan's only demonstration of character depth was when she felt wearied of the slaughter - it demonstrates a conflict of desires, that she can feel guilt and sorrow. When she responds to Raynor after Fenix gets killed, she sounds positively ruffled. So yes, she does have more depth in Brood War, but not for the reason you mentioned. I guess you could say a similar thing when Kerrigan last speaks in the All In mission, revealing a fragment of her longing to be free from the shackles of her Zerg form.
I have no idea why you think Arcturus is a bumbling moron in Wings of Liberty, however.
That's my point. You set up this promising character and then blow it with WoL. Even if she does have few lines, her script/delivery of these lines was absolutely terrible and only enforced the idea of a one-dimensional character. And yes, the manipulation and deceit is part of character depth because it reveals personality traits. That's what she likes to do. Manipulation and all of that is much more interesting than, "ME EVIL. ME SMASH."
Arcturus is a bumbling moron because he does nothing right. He's lagging behind Raynor's Raiders and getting bested the entire time while being portrayed as a leader of a clone of Communist Russia/Eastern Germany after fighting against exactly the same thing.
I said nothing about struggles or inner conflict, I have no idea what you are responding to.
Kerrigan's free will... well, that's an entirely different can of worms.
Anyway, Raynor said he'd kill her in a fit of rage after one of his good friends was murdered by her. Things said under the effects of heavy emotion are not always things you can believe in once your mind clears. I really see nothing surprising about this, I never believed for a second that he would hesitate once offered a chance to save her, it would go against everything we know of his character.
You don't just say an offhand comment that was merely a fit of rage when the entire game stops and focuses solely on Raynor's speech. There was entirely too much emphasis on those words and the idea of the betrayal to just shrug it off. Furthermore, that and everything else I mentioned (inner struggles and all that) is potential that was completely wasted. It could've made for a far more interesting character and it was almost ignored entirely. And no, killing her wouldn't go directly against his character at all. She manipulated and betrayed him, killing his best friend, after he was betrayed by Mengsk and lost her. His sense of moral duty should actually drive him to kill the most dangerous being in the galaxy, if anything.
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But it doesn´t and that is the point in WoL. Raynor has sworn to kill the Queen of Blades but the conflict is that he still likes Kerrigan. He still has her Photo, and once shown hope that she can be saved he drops everything to do that (unless the Player then switches to the "Horner" missions...)
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On August 10 2010 06:02 Unentschieden wrote: But it doesn´t and that is the point in WoL. Raynor has sworn to kill the Queen of Blades but the conflict is that he still likes Kerrigan. He still has her Photo, and once shown hope that she can be saved he drops everything to do that (unless the Player then switches to the "Horner" missions...)
Exactly - it's bad writing. He drops the entire idea of revenge against the woman he once loved but has now done horrible things to his life. Instead, he's just all about saving her, and we don't even get to see that shift. We don't see why he made that shift. There's nothing. It's just like he forgot that the events in BW happened.
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Imo, blizzard made a mistake making the missions non-linear. It basically forced the dialogue and story to become shallow, to not give away any emotions caused by missions not completed yet. A friend of mine actually never did the protoss side-missions which should have made some kind of impact on Raynor's behavior, but he never noticed, and those are probably the most important plot-advancements for the sequels.
All that being said, I had fun with the single player anyway. Only the story was lacking for me, and blizz can fix this by making the campaign more similar to SC1 (though this likely won't happen)
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On August 10 2010 06:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 06:02 Unentschieden wrote: But it doesn´t and that is the point in WoL. Raynor has sworn to kill the Queen of Blades but the conflict is that he still likes Kerrigan. He still has her Photo, and once shown hope that she can be saved he drops everything to do that (unless the Player then switches to the "Horner" missions...)
Exactly - it's bad writing. He drops the entire idea of revenge against the woman he once loved but has now done horrible things to his life. Instead, he's just all about saving her, and we don't even get to see that shift. We don't see why he made that shift. There's nothing. It's just like he forgot that the events in BW happened.
Not exactly. Raynor was motivated to save Kerrigan ALL the time, in SC he returns to the plot after the Terran campaign after recieving Kerrigans call for help. It´s one of the few plotrelevant midcampaign prerendered scenes in SC. After she makes it clear that she is now Zerg, Raynor eventually ends up helping Tassadar to take down the Overmind. It´s what makes her eventual betrayal by killing Fenix (no one cares about Duke ;_;) so devistating for him. Until the end of BW he does everything he can to save her but everything fails. After she disappears all he has left is the Rebellion/Revenge against Mengsk. Especially the latter becomes clear in the Post Tosh cutscene and the discussion with Horner after the Moebius Factor (Thats where the Tarsonis Flashback is).
What kills the writing is that you can jump into the rebellion subplot at any time during the Artifacts plotline. The narrative discrepancys are jarring if you don´t finish Media Blitz before Moebius Factor.
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mengsk actually attributes the adjutant recording to being fake in the story...
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On August 09 2010 20:09 Ianuus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 19:47 Ownos wrote:It's clearly stated the word didn't get out about what happened there. After all, how can it when they annihilated the place? It's not like they Thor-jacked the Odin and ran. The Odin was to be shipped to Korhal to be shown off to the public so they shipped it to Korhal. And why NOT use the Odin? Might as well make use of your new toy. They knew going against the Dominion on their territory wasn't going to be easy and wanted the element of surprise. How they pulled all that off is conveniently done off screen! ...so they annihilated the place, and the Dominion doesn't think anything was wrong so they ship off the Odin to a parade anyway? Even though terrorists killed the base? And did Tychus hide inside the whole way? Shouldn't there have been a dominion pilot who was supposed to be in there? The reason not to use the Odin is because if you didn't, then you wouldn't have had to steal it in the first place. You can just land in Korhal and start killing everything - the Odin served no purpose to spread the message about Mengsk.
Put it this way, if you expect your UPS package to come to your house in let's say 3 days, you expect it in three days.Your package is intercepted and the UPS center blown up somehow. You probably don't know the center was blown up. The guy changed the contents of your package from SC2 to... I dunno, a bomb. And yes the Odin was necessary in getting the message broadcasted because they expected heavy opposition. Yes, I know it doesn't do the broadcasting directly. But it says right there in the campaign why they needed it. For some reason the characters believed they needed Odin and surprise advantage. It IS the Dominion capital after all.
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On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +So? BW had to end the way it did. Nor was it that creative. And predictable. Blizzard isn't going to kill off the zerg. They always make the story end with the bad guy winning so they have wiggle room for a sequel. It was like this in BW, it was like this for the WC3:TFT. HECK it was like that for WC2 Tides of Darkness. Go and complain about the ending of SC1 too? I'm pretty sure I made a list of this before. ToD was definitely the good guy winning - The Humans destroy the Dark Portal and (seemingly) get rid of the evil Orcs. How does evil win in any way? TFT definitely wasn't an evil ending either. Yea, the Lich King is embodied now, but basically everyone got what they want. Orcs got their own place, Humans re-settled, Blood Elves got their crack, Night Elves save the world. No one lost in TFT, so it can hardly be an evil ending. The same principle is true in BtDP. No one lost, so it isn't really an evil ending. Classic SC could actually be seen as a good ending, despite major losses. They finally defeated the "great evil". We only see that it ends up badly with the next game. As for Diablo, the first one is very ambiguous. We don't actually know that the hero is corrupted until the next game, so it's neutral because of the sacrifice the hero makes. But as for the 2nd one, it's a clear-cut good wins scenario. The 3 brothers are dead. The Worldstone is destroyed, but we don't actually see any real repercussions for that (at least not for the 20 years between 2 and 3).
Dude... you are just picking things out conveniently to suite your argument. I could just as easily say the same thing about BW. Sure, Kerrigan wins and the UED is wiped out. But the Dominion and protoss happily retreat. Just another lost battle. They aren't severly broken. The protoss still "got what they want" their new homeworld, Mengks gets to abuse his powers still. ToD was not the good guys winning. How is being stuck on an planet being torn apart and the bad guys fleeing through a portal "good guys winning"? At the time all you know was they were screwed. BW is not special.
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Ok, this might be sorta long also, but i think it might be worth it:
First of all, i agree with like 90% of waht you say is wrogn but for otally diffrent reasons:
Mengks or however that guy name really is: In sc1 BW, Raynor "Brings" him to kerrigan cus she needs his psi emiters, after that she takes his forces out, he pulls some old favours and gets a new army to try to kill her (omega mission, last mission for zerg in sc:bw), but u crush him again... Now how the hell is he emperor of the dominion again? Kinda lost the part where He became so powerfull and raynor lost all control over him.
Raynor: first, if he is to carry a picture of someone it should be Fenix... or Tassadar... Then again, he dosent even look anything like the original raynor :D. Raynor was always a smart guy, and a saviour of ppl, so going to char instead of (Again?) getting rid of mengsk is sorta understandable. Saving kerrigan? why not?... After all normal ways to deal with her always failed :D.
Tygus: Well, he is a meathead, works for moebius or mengsk, no diffrence: if kerrigan really is as baddass as in sc1 (taking down dominion UED and Protoss togheter!!) then better safe than sorry id say. Raynor trusts him? Maybe... that was sorta confusing.
Price charming guy: Mengsk had a son so stupid (by the way he talks in some cinematics) and gave him control over half of his fleet? Big lol here. After that, second idea: u wanna take down your father, dude shot him and blame someone you dont like, you avoid raynor like 16 misions.
Swan/Matt horner/And other non important characters: If they were his original crew (killing the overmind, etc; why are they so cranky about raynor working for the dominion....
Nova/tosh: great add on, but would be much better if it was possible to see them in nxt campaigns.
And now the real important deal: You (meaning the character you are suppoesed to be in SC2):
in sc1 u were a commander for the terran, a cerebrate for the zerg and a executor for the protoss. Now my first idea after i saw the hybrids return in sc2 (since they do come in sc1) was... Maybe the player is actually working for the hybrids all along, especially after the sc1 secret mission. That sorta got me thinking... Where is duran? Duran in sc1, underrates kerrigan as if she was just a tool he used. Eitehr is is some real baddass, or he is just bluffing. If all this hybrid crap is so important, why nobody talks about it? Raynor is so drunk he cant say "btw the universe is gonna end, be better do something about that"?
The ending of the campaign is kinda melodramatic, but its ok i guess. My biggest complain that kinda got me petrified is right about b4 you finish the last mission kerrigan appears in her human form (AKA nova with red hair), and suddenly she is naked (not complainig about that thou ;D) but her hair is still looking like zerg? So Raynor did all this and is getting some mutated chick? I just hope to god "theplayer" aint raynor, i think i got better taste for women ;D.
P.S: About excusing the story or not: SC1 was made in a time where a lot fewer games came out and everything was carefully treated (think of games like Deus EX 1, Baldus Gate 1, and im sure u can think of many others). Today games are made to make money, and im guessing many of u bought it :D. There are very few games made nowdays that have an original story and are still great over all (Last game i can think of that had a good ending was Dead Space). Oh, and sry for gramatical mistakes ;D.
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On August 10 2010 07:33 Coca Cola Classic wrote: mengsk actually attributes the adjutant recording to being fake in the story...
Yes but the thing is that after Kate plays that really horrible bit for him he should have remained calm and said "So, what? It's fake." Not gone all pissed off, that lends the recording credibility.
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On August 06 2010 18:34 fathead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 11:56 nemanja1503 wrote: Like the stupid filler missions in which we earn money. That would have been a nice idea if they had like 40 missions in total and were aiming in portraying Raynor's revolution in detail and had you spend 15 missions collecting funds and then 10 missions doing covert ops with Tosh or some other missions in which you don't produce troops (like the secret mission) all of those mixed up with about 15 plot advancing missions. Now that would be an epic campaign, but no. What happened is that too many missions feel like filler from the story perspective, and when we take out the filler missions we get about 10 important missions, exactly how many there were per race in SC1 when all races were in the same game. This is by far your most valid point and I felt the same way times 10. It felt much much shorter then the original, despite being more expensive than most games. In fact for a campaign marketed as the most epic thing in history, it was VERY lacking, in fact it felt MUCH less epic that many of the games I played in recent past that were 10-20 bucks cheaper. However, for the rest of your post I think you are being too harsh. I would guess most people here are in the 18-35 demographic which means most of us played SC1 when we were teens/preteens, back when we were young and impressionable, and didn't know what a good story really looked liked. What we forget is that SC/BW's story wasn't really that great, it was also full of holes and lacked character motivation; its time line seems unrealistic (all those events of SC + BW taking less than a year?), and it lacked for sight; many of the holes I found in SC2 were the result of SC's story being made up as they went along. The fact is that most game's stories suck. The only ones that are decent are the adventure games, of which their whole selling point is the story, and the game is built from the ground up around that fact. At its core SC will always be a competitive online game. The story will always be the second or even third priority (I would say game mechanics 1, balance 2). By that standard SC had an amazing story. I can't think of many other games built from the ground up for online competition who's single player was on par with SC. True, there are many games that far surpass SC's single player by leaps and bounds but they are supposed to, since most of them don't even have a multi-player option, and is focused on story telling. If you ever play a game like The Longest Journey or Deus Ex or one of the classic Sierra/Lucas game, or my personal favorite Vampire Bloodlines; you will know what the height of gaming storytelling can be. SC2 doesn't reach those heights, but to pretend SC1 did is to fall in the trap of nostalgic revisionist memory. What SC2 offers is a squeal and update to the greatest pro league game of all time. It is by that standard that you can criticize its single player. This however leads to an underling question as to weather or not the expansions should be purchased if there main focus is on the campaign and not multi-player. My answer is that if money is tight, which for most of us it is, than by judging from the quality of WoL, I would say no. There is just no way to justify buying a game's campaign in three $60+ installments unless it is out of this world incredibly epic. SC2 isn't even remotely close to that qualification. I see no reason why all three campaigns weren't including considering the price tag. If that's the best Blizzard can do with a reported $100 million dollar budget and SEVEN years of development than there needs everyone associated with the project needs to be fired.
Actually, totally agree!
P.S: I think BLizzard made an incredible story with this game. Reason? Seems everyone is able to see in it what they want to see, some hate it some love it, but there are sure a lot op ppl giveing opinions :D.
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On August 07 2010 03:28 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2010 03:23 Blaec wrote: The campaign story was lame. But i enjoyed playing, and the Kerrigan betrayed cinematic was absolutely awesome.
And its not like BW didnt have convenient illogical and lame parts to its campaign.
Now I just want to know how they are going to have characters in the Zerg third of the campaign? Are we going to play a Hydralisk, pulling together his ragtag gang of zerg to bring Kerrigan back? No, you'll probably play Kerrigan. She'll happily agree to join Raynor & Co. and add the Zerg to his forces (I think the Zergy hair left over is an indicator that she's not completely cured and can still control the Zerg - otherwise what was the point of the prophecy? If she can't control them anymore, then Raynor just fucked everyone in the butt), so she will have to rebuild her power...again...by zipping around the galaxy picking up Zerg strains and evolutions. Then, on Mission 21, she'll probably go AWOL, when Mengsk makes himself vulnerable somehow, and go kick his ass. Sound familiar?
Raynor just fucked everyone in the butt, u made my day man, and im guessing zeratul is like "all this mystic talk and u still screw up?!" :D
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On August 10 2010 08:13 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 23:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:So? BW had to end the way it did. Nor was it that creative. And predictable. Blizzard isn't going to kill off the zerg. They always make the story end with the bad guy winning so they have wiggle room for a sequel. It was like this in BW, it was like this for the WC3:TFT. HECK it was like that for WC2 Tides of Darkness. Go and complain about the ending of SC1 too? I'm pretty sure I made a list of this before. ToD was definitely the good guy winning - The Humans destroy the Dark Portal and (seemingly) get rid of the evil Orcs. How does evil win in any way? TFT definitely wasn't an evil ending either. Yea, the Lich King is embodied now, but basically everyone got what they want. Orcs got their own place, Humans re-settled, Blood Elves got their crack, Night Elves save the world. No one lost in TFT, so it can hardly be an evil ending. The same principle is true in BtDP. No one lost, so it isn't really an evil ending. Classic SC could actually be seen as a good ending, despite major losses. They finally defeated the "great evil". We only see that it ends up badly with the next game. As for Diablo, the first one is very ambiguous. We don't actually know that the hero is corrupted until the next game, so it's neutral because of the sacrifice the hero makes. But as for the 2nd one, it's a clear-cut good wins scenario. The 3 brothers are dead. The Worldstone is destroyed, but we don't actually see any real repercussions for that (at least not for the 20 years between 2 and 3). Dude... you are just picking things out conveniently to suite your argument. I could just as easily say the same thing about BW. Sure, Kerrigan wins and the UED is wiped out. But the Dominion and protoss happily retreat. Just another lost battle. They aren't severly broken. The protoss still "got what they want" their new homeworld, Mengks gets to abuse his powers still. ToD was not the good guys winning. How is being stuck on an planet being torn apart and the bad guys fleeing through a portal "good guys winning"? At the time all you know was they were screwed. BW is not special.
Tides of Darkness is not the same as Beyond the Dark Portal. You're confusing the two.
As to your example, there's a difference between TFT (where the Undead didn't dominate and beat down all of the good factions, only another bad one, and where the new Lich King doesn't just open up an era of total dominance of a sector) and BW (where Kerrigan beats down everyone else, including the good guys, and seals her complete dominance of the sector with this).
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