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On January 09 2011 11:42 Donttazemebro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 11:33 oursblanc wrote:On January 09 2011 11:25 Donttazemebro wrote:On January 09 2011 11:19 oursblanc wrote: SjoW made one spur of the moment comment and all this complaining? Weird.
I'd be pissed too if my previous game had frozen 2-3 times because of the casters alone and they still rejoined. Thanks for your real wise post to this thread. People are obviously only indirectly pissed at his comment, moreso because it was the reason they could not watch the finals, that they were waiting for, live. Think before posting... Then they should be disappointed at the connection problems, not at a player. Omg, read the thread. The problem from the first game was pinpointed and the caster did not get a chance to explain. Calm down. I watched it live. I know exactly what happened. SjoW had no proof that anything was fixed and neither did the caster or the audience, it was all just assumption. Why would he risk another game full of lag spikes?.
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Where is the respect for the players? You can't play a grand final with lag, even if it's just the slightest. This is clearly a major failure by the tournament admins because the lack of a offical caster at the lancenter, or even in the EU, and they are to be blamed, not SjoW nor TLO?
I'm pretty sure the sponsors that put money in expects a offical caster located where the tournament is being held.
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On January 09 2011 11:49 oursblanc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 11:42 Donttazemebro wrote:On January 09 2011 11:33 oursblanc wrote:On January 09 2011 11:25 Donttazemebro wrote:On January 09 2011 11:19 oursblanc wrote: SjoW made one spur of the moment comment and all this complaining? Weird.
I'd be pissed too if my previous game had frozen 2-3 times because of the casters alone and they still rejoined. Thanks for your real wise post to this thread. People are obviously only indirectly pissed at his comment, moreso because it was the reason they could not watch the finals, that they were waiting for, live. Think before posting... Then they should be disappointed at the connection problems, not at a player. Omg, read the thread. The problem from the first game was pinpointed and the caster did not get a chance to explain. Calm down. I watched it live. I know exactly what happened. SjoW had no proof that anything was fixed and neither did the caster or the audience, it was all just assumption. Why would he risk another game full of lag spikes?.
Well, it was the only thing that changed from all the lagfree games before, if lag recurred, the casters would have left at the first lag in the new game for sure. I think what can be said, has been said. Anyone can make their own picture with the information available. No need to explain it to everyone who still doesn't get it.
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Sorry, I didn't watch this tourney, but I'm interested in this "drama". I skimmed through a bit and. from my understanding, casters lagged and sjow complained? Can someone explain it to me very briefly :O.
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Obviously nobody is blaming Sjow for organizational issues (of which there were many).
While we're at the topic of organizational issues, professional players in BW were getting disqualified after so much as typing one character in chat more or less than they were supposed to. It's not that I approved of such draconian measures (was never a big fan of Kespa), but it should give some perspective of where the players should be in the general hierarchy of things. Hint: secondary to audience and sponsors.
If the entire tournament went under enormous lag, it was horrible, but in no world is it a valid reason to deny viewers the grand finals, and especially not a player's place to call for it. If the entire bracket could be played under a severe lag due to organizational issues, then so should the finals have been.
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On January 09 2011 11:56 YoonHo wrote: Sorry, I didn't watch this tourney, but I'm interested in this "drama". I skimmed through a bit and. from my understanding, casters lagged and sjow complained? Can someone explain it to me very briefly :O.
just read the last 3 pages u bum
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Why would anyone take his threat seriously anyway? If another tournament has the same caster casting games, what right does Sjow have to say that he doesn't want that person in the game? He didn't pay for anything; he doesn't run the tournament. He just plays and happens to make money because there are lots of people willing to spectate, which he effectively prevented this time.
Really classless and selfish, in my opinion.
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On January 09 2011 09:34 TotalBiscuit wrote: It's probably not in my best interests to get involved in this, but lots of people are getting blamed who really shouldn't be by the sounds of it and it's a whole bunch of drama.
This is my understanding from the information I've gathered. Please take it with a grain of salt.
The tournament should have had an official, on-site caster. He never showed up. Ragequit stepped in to provide a stream. Had they not done so, the entire tournament would have been a disaster for the sponsors, which means pulling money OUT of the eSports scene in the UK. Not good. sheekthief cast for 6 hours solo, which puts him in the 'like a boss' category in my book.
Sjow was upset about lag. This is understandable, his reaction after a long day of intense playing, also understandable. Not really his call to make to remove the caster, that would be an admin decision and up to the organisers, but you can't blame him for making that known.The fact that this stuff was evening happening at midnight? Ridiculous. Way too late for this kind of thing. Organisational failure, should have been split over 2 days if time was going to be an issue. Lack of reliable on-site caster? Inexcusable failure. I dunno who this guy was, but I know for a fact it was neither myself nor Apollo. This might sound arrogant as shit, but... name one other UK Starcraft 2 caster... because I can't. Who on earth did they ask who then didn't bother to show up?
This concerns me because it's another setback for eSports in the UK and may damage the potential for big money sponsorship in this country for future events.
Again please, grain of salt, I'm coming into this late with limited knowledge.
Why attempt to put in your opinion then? Whether or not you're concerned with e-sports; if you're already aware that you are adding nothing to an already heated discussion - other than your big brain - then why would you bother posting?
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On January 09 2011 11:51 Pawnawa wrote: Where is the respect for the players? You can't play a grand final with lag, even if it's just the slightest. This is clearly a major failure by the tournament admins because the lack of a offical caster at the lancenter, or even in the EU, and they are to be blamed, not SjoW nor TLO?
I'm pretty sure the sponsors that put money in expects a offical caster located where the tournament is being held.
Last night they said that a bad snow storm prevented their offical caster from getting to the lan center. Blame mother nature.
FUck you NATURE!!!
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On January 09 2011 12:24 qck wrote: Why attempt to put in your opinion then? Whether or not you're concerned with e-sports; if you're already aware that you are adding nothing to an already heated discussion - other than your big brain - then why would you bother posting?
Why do any of us post anything qck? The vast majority of forum posts, including my own, are nothing but hot air anyways. His limited knowledge is way way more than what most people in this thread are posting with so I dare say his post actually holds a little bit more...gravitas than all other posts in this thread except for haypro's and tlo's posts because they are actually there.
Besides, most of what he said isn't opinion. I find this part
The fact that this stuff was evening happening at midnight? Ridiculous. Way too late for this kind of thing. Organisational failure, should have been split over 2 days if time was going to be an issue. Lack of reliable on-site caster? Inexcusable failure. I dunno who this guy was, but I know for a fact it was neither myself nor Apollo. This might sound arrogant as shit, but... name one other UK Starcraft 2 caster... because I can't. Who on earth did they ask who then didn't bother to show up?
This concerns me because it's another setback for eSports in the UK and may damage the potential for big money sponsorship in this country for future events.
pretty unarguable.
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Gamers are always up on midnight T_T And no one makes them play, no one makes them compete for the prices.
It's sad that the us caster lagged, but its not like its always like that. Internetz is quite capable nowadays. . .
Sometimes shit hits the fan and people should deal with it in good manner, thats the point in this. Not to freak out like a child. Too bad there was no one to bitchslap the one involved.
Problems emerge within players, within casters, in organizations, its not a disaster. Life isnt always going like you are planning it to go.
Deal with it.
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On January 09 2011 12:38 Domination wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 12:24 qck wrote: Why attempt to put in your opinion then? Whether or not you're concerned with e-sports; if you're already aware that you are adding nothing to an already heated discussion - other than your big brain - then why would you bother posting? Why do any of us post anything qck? The vast majority of forum posts, including my own, are nothing but hot air anyways. His limited knowledge is way way more than what most people in this thread are posting with so I dare say his post actually holds a little bit more...gravitas than all other posts in this thread except for haypro's and tlo's posts because they are actually there. Besides, most of what he said isn't opinion. I find this part Show nested quote +The fact that this stuff was evening happening at midnight? Ridiculous. Way too late for this kind of thing. Organisational failure, should have been split over 2 days if time was going to be an issue. Lack of reliable on-site caster? Inexcusable failure. I dunno who this guy was, but I know for a fact it was neither myself nor Apollo. This might sound arrogant as shit, but... name one other UK Starcraft 2 caster... because I can't. Who on earth did they ask who then didn't bother to show up?
This concerns me because it's another setback for eSports in the UK and may damage the potential for big money sponsorship in this country for future events.
pretty unarguable.
They're assumptions on a tournament he has had no role in. "This might sound arrogant as shit, but...", does sound 'arrogant as shit'. He's typed airless accusations with no real point other than an advertisement for his own - here comes my opinion - lacklustre shoutcasting.
Though maybe I'm - heavily - biased, because I've read his diatribes on countless other subjects and all of them are heavily inclined towards his own persona without actually discussing the issue at hand. Again, I think anyone, including me, is incredibly stupid for even approaching the subject; as I'm sure the people who ran the tournament are very much aware of their shortfalls and I don't think 5 pages of non-constructive criticism will help them out in future events.
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Tbh they both had reason to complain. The game doesn't pause when someones lagging out which there should be some kind of tournament setting for. I think when Sjow was pushing on TLO's main on DQ was the most frustrating as he was lagging out every 5 seconds........
Even so it was a pleasure to watch TLO'S for a day from 6 feet away even if they were all TvTs..
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I'll try to add my perspective as well. I think I have more experience as a player and organizer than most which allows for a little more objectivity. I do want to note that I have not seen the manner in which Sjow made his requests so I will only talk about the essence of the situation and not the way it was delivered. If Sjow sounded like an asshole to you then he sounded like an asshole, but that doesn't mean you need to judge the actual action. It is possible to say he had a good reason to do so and that you find him an asshole at the same time. These things are not mutually exclusive and you should never confuse the two.
A player has to accept certain conditions when he is playing tournaments because it can't all be perfect. A good example would be when a player signs up for a tournament that is not played on his server he accepts to play in delay. This means he has no right to complain about delay because he agreed to it by playing. However the lag of a caster does not fall into this group.
If a terrible playing condition can be solved by the caster leaving then this is the right thing to do. This should have been done by the caster, and the tournament admins. Not doing so was a huge blunder, much moreso than what Sjow did. If Sjow used his star-power to make a caster leave (I will not let you in my games again) then this is definitely wrong, but considering the past 12 hours of the tournament being such a mess a high level of frustration is understandable, and maybe even justified. The computers at the tournament were lagging, the connection was lagging, outside casters had to be brought in because the organization couldn't take care of it themselves. Players put up with all of this so far without public complaints. When in the final of a big money tournament on top of all these things the caster also starts to lag and doesn't leave then that is just too much for a player to handle after he has been dealing with the frustration of organizational incompetence all day long.
I would not be happy if anyone in Liquid handled this the way Sjow did at all and I would definitely yell at them for behaving like this. I believe that when a player signs up for a tournament he puts his faith into the tournament organizers hands and that he should follow the rules he signed up for. Most tournaments have a rule about them deciding whether casters can be in the game, when you sign up for a tournament like this you shouldn't complain about it when it is causing issues. I do want to add that this is a good rule; never should a good tournament organizer put this sort of power in the hands of players. If you dislike such a rule you should not have played the tournament then. Sign up for a tournament, play by their rules. If you didn't like the tournament don't sign up next time.
Clearly the organization made huge mistakes and if that is a reason for players not to come back then that is understandable. I would even go as far as to say very few teams are going to spend their travel budget on this tournament next time. I know Liquid can't afford to send players to tournaments that can't get a proper stream running.
Bottom line is the tournament organizers as well as the caster fucked up by staying in the game, and people saying in this topic that this is a spectator sport need to stfu. Tournaments need to make the decision that casters are not allowed in the game if they lag. Playing conditions should be high priority. These are the individual lifes of young players you are influencing by letting them play in horrible conditions and this is something that should be taken with more responsibility. The argument that viewers are the reason that there is prize money in this tournament is obviously completely ridiculous; as the tournament organizers couldn't even get a proper stream running themselves.
Conclusion: Sjow did something wrong but nothing that deserves to be flamed.
I do want to add once more that spectator sport should not warrant lagging casters whatsoever. Anyone who believes it does is simply wrong. Tournaments can be cast from replays it's not a huge disaster to just let the players play and switch from live to replay cast. It is not a players position to make this call however.
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WUHU TLO won, gogo Dario <3
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On January 09 2011 15:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I'll try to add my perspective as well. I think I have more experience as a player and organizer than most which allows for a little more objectivity. I do want to note that I have not seen the manner in which Sjow made his requests so I will try to talk about the essence of the situation and not the way it was delivered. If Sjow sounded like an asshole to you then he sounded like an asshole, but that doesn't mean you need to judge the actual action. It is possible to say he had a good reason to do so and that you find him an asshole at the same time. These things are not mutually exclusive and you should never confuse the two.
A player has to accept certain conditions when he is playing tournaments because it can't all be perfect. A good example would be when a player signs up for a tournament that is not played on his server he accepts to play in delay. This means he has no right to complain about delay because he agreed to it by playing. However the lag of a caster does not fall into this group.
If a terrible playing condition can be solved by the caster leaving then this is the right thing to do. This should have been done by the caster, and the tournament admins. Not doing so was a huge blunder, much moreso than what Sjow did. If Sjow used his star-power to make a caster leave (I will not let you in my games again) then this is definitely wrong, but considering the past 12 hours of the tournament being such a mess a high level of frustration is understandable, and maybe even justified. The computers at the tournament were lagging, the connection was lagging, outside casters had to be brought in because the organization couldn't take care of it themselves. Players put up with all of this so far without public complaints. When in the final of a big money tournament on top of all these things the caster also starts to lag and doesn't leave then that is just too much for a player to handle after he has been dealing with the frustration of organizational incompetence all day long.
I would not be happy if anyone in Liquid handled this the way Sjow did at all and I would definitely yell at them for behaving like this. I believe that when a player signs up for a tournament he puts his faith into the tournament organizers hands and that he should follow the rules he signed up for. Most tournaments have a rule about them deciding whether casters can be in the game, when you sign up for a tournament like this you shouldn't complain about it when it is causing issues. I do want to add that this is a good rule; never should a good tournament organizer put this sort of power in the hands of players. If you dislike such a rule you should not have played the tournament then. Sign up for a tournament, play by their rules. If you didn't like the tournament don't sign up next time.
Clearly the organization made huge mistakes and if that is a reason for players not to come back then that is understandable. I would even go as far as to say very few teams are going to spend their travel budget on this tournament next time. I know Liquid can't afford to send players to tournaments that can't get a proper stream running.
Bottom line is the tournament organizers as well as the caster fucked up by staying in the game, and people saying in this topic that this is a spectator sport need to stfu. Tournaments need to make the decision that casters are not allowed in the game if they lag. Playing conditions should be high priority. These are the individual lifes of young players you are influencing by letting them play in horrible conditions and this is something that should be taken with more responsibility. The argument that viewers are the reason that there is prize money in this tournament is obviously completely ridiculous; as the tournament organizers couldn't even get a proper stream running themselves.
Conclusion: Sjow did something wrong but nothing that deserves to be flamed.
I do want to add once more that spectator sport should not warrant lagging casters whatsoever. Anyone who believes it does is simply wrong. Tournaments can be cast from replays it's not a huge disaster to just let the players play and switch from live to replay cast. It is not a players position to make this call however.
this needs more publicity, make it a featured news/blog/announcment/declaration/mainfesto
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Huge props need to go to Ragequit for stepping in too, the poor guy sounded exhausted at the end. A lot of people were doing their thing under difficult circumstances, a little tension is understandable.
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On January 09 2011 13:22 qck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 12:38 Domination wrote:On January 09 2011 12:24 qck wrote: Why attempt to put in your opinion then? Whether or not you're concerned with e-sports; if you're already aware that you are adding nothing to an already heated discussion - other than your big brain - then why would you bother posting? Why do any of us post anything qck? The vast majority of forum posts, including my own, are nothing but hot air anyways. His limited knowledge is way way more than what most people in this thread are posting with so I dare say his post actually holds a little bit more...gravitas than all other posts in this thread except for haypro's and tlo's posts because they are actually there. Besides, most of what he said isn't opinion. I find this part The fact that this stuff was evening happening at midnight? Ridiculous. Way too late for this kind of thing. Organisational failure, should have been split over 2 days if time was going to be an issue. Lack of reliable on-site caster? Inexcusable failure. I dunno who this guy was, but I know for a fact it was neither myself nor Apollo. This might sound arrogant as shit, but... name one other UK Starcraft 2 caster... because I can't. Who on earth did they ask who then didn't bother to show up?
This concerns me because it's another setback for eSports in the UK and may damage the potential for big money sponsorship in this country for future events.
pretty unarguable. They're assumptions on a tournament he has had no role in. "This might sound arrogant as shit, but...", does sound 'arrogant as shit'. He's typed airless accusations with no real point other than an advertisement for his own - here comes my opinion - lacklustre shoutcasting. Though maybe I'm - heavily - biased, because I've read his diatribes on countless other subjects and all of them are heavily inclined towards his own persona without actually discussing the issue at hand. Again, I think anyone, including me, is incredibly stupid for even approaching the subject; as I'm sure the people who ran the tournament are very much aware of their shortfalls and I don't think 5 pages of non-constructive criticism will help them out in future events.
Can you prove that even one thing I said was not true? I have to ask because right now the one who seems to be 'full of hot air' is you. How was my criticism not constructive exactly? Which of my points were incorrect?
I ask because yes, it would appear you are heavily biased and don't seem to have anything to add other than insults. You have absolutely no idea who my sources are or where that information came from, but I can safely say now, having read your post, that I definitely know more about it than you do. You've not added a shred of value to this discussion and if you want to make yourself feel better by airing your dirty laundry in public, then you don't get to sit on a moral high-horse and claim that I'm not discussing the issue at hand.
But hey, what would I know, I'm just a lacklustre shoutcaster, my opinion isn't worth shit right?
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Will there be any replay pack available? Some of the games were sick good!
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On January 09 2011 15:51 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I'll try to add my perspective as well. I think I have more experience as a player and organizer than most which allows for a little more objectivity. I do want to note that I have not seen the manner in which Sjow made his requests so I will only talk about the essence of the situation and not the way it was delivered. If Sjow sounded like an asshole to you then he sounded like an asshole, but that doesn't mean you need to judge the actual action. It is possible to say he had a good reason to do so and that you find him an asshole at the same time. These things are not mutually exclusive and you should never confuse the two.
A player has to accept certain conditions when he is playing tournaments because it can't all be perfect. A good example would be when a player signs up for a tournament that is not played on his server he accepts to play in delay. This means he has no right to complain about delay because he agreed to it by playing. However the lag of a caster does not fall into this group.
If a terrible playing condition can be solved by the caster leaving then this is the right thing to do. This should have been done by the caster, and the tournament admins. Not doing so was a huge blunder, much moreso than what Sjow did. If Sjow used his star-power to make a caster leave (I will not let you in my games again) then this is definitely wrong, but considering the past 12 hours of the tournament being such a mess a high level of frustration is understandable, and maybe even justified. The computers at the tournament were lagging, the connection was lagging, outside casters had to be brought in because the organization couldn't take care of it themselves. Players put up with all of this so far without public complaints. When in the final of a big money tournament on top of all these things the caster also starts to lag and doesn't leave then that is just too much for a player to handle after he has been dealing with the frustration of organizational incompetence all day long.
I would not be happy if anyone in Liquid handled this the way Sjow did at all and I would definitely yell at them for behaving like this. I believe that when a player signs up for a tournament he puts his faith into the tournament organizers hands and that he should follow the rules he signed up for. Most tournaments have a rule about them deciding whether casters can be in the game, when you sign up for a tournament like this you shouldn't complain about it when it is causing issues. I do want to add that this is a good rule; never should a good tournament organizer put this sort of power in the hands of players. If you dislike such a rule you should not have played the tournament then. Sign up for a tournament, play by their rules. If you didn't like the tournament don't sign up next time.
Clearly the organization made huge mistakes and if that is a reason for players not to come back then that is understandable. I would even go as far as to say very few teams are going to spend their travel budget on this tournament next time. I know Liquid can't afford to send players to tournaments that can't get a proper stream running.
Bottom line is the tournament organizers as well as the caster fucked up by staying in the game, and people saying in this topic that this is a spectator sport need to stfu. Tournaments need to make the decision that casters are not allowed in the game if they lag. Playing conditions should be high priority. These are the individual lifes of young players you are influencing by letting them play in horrible conditions and this is something that should be taken with more responsibility. The argument that viewers are the reason that there is prize money in this tournament is obviously completely ridiculous; as the tournament organizers couldn't even get a proper stream running themselves.
Conclusion: Sjow did something wrong but nothing that deserves to be flamed.
I do want to add once more that spectator sport should not warrant lagging casters whatsoever. Anyone who believes it does is simply wrong. Tournaments can be cast from replays it's not a huge disaster to just let the players play and switch from live to replay cast. It is not a players position to make this call however.
I am not really into many tournaments. And i don't know nothing about which rules there are in a starcraft II tournament. but i do wanna put some emphasis on the perspective of other sports.
think of a soccer worldchampionship. which is by far one of the biggest sport tournaments in the world. and by biggest i mean there is just the whole fuckin world watchin'!
BUT do you really think, that the players stop playin, if there is a broadcasting error? serious? they just give a shit. they do not even want to know ingame if there is something wrong!!!
we wanna watch a competitive sport. there has to be the best ingame conditions possible.
kind regards -caspa
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